‘It: Welcome to Derry’ Drops a Surprise Episode and Previewing the Winter TV Slate. Plus, Sharon Horgan on Creating and Starring in ‘Youth.’

>> Welcome to the watch, my name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor of TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio is Haley Stevens costume is non-refundable. It's a degree wall. >> No, no, no, you don't understand. It was a Haley Stevens visiting a black church costume. >> You and I should have gone as Haley Stevens and K-Packs for Halloween. >> Oh, that's good. >> What if we had gone as Haley Stevens and her queen fiancee? >> I can't do with Razor Blay. It's in a surprise. >> You just wanted to do Packs again. K-Packs. That's what that movie was about, right? >> It is about Andy did in the show. >> What a huge show for us today. >> But not only are we impressive. >> We're impressive. >> We have just a grab bag of stuff to do. We are going to talk about the fallen rise of Reggie Dinkins coming back. I have some end of the year TV preview, kind of the rest of the next two months as we rock into November. Some news, notes, and interesting tidbits from my weekend of watching. And then the second half of the show, I'm going to be joined by Sharon Horton. >> That's awesome. >> Who's series youth or first season of youth aired its finale last night on HBO Max. And Sharon is going to come by and chat with us about youth. I'm excited to talk to her also about some of my faves by her motherland. >> You talked to her before? >> No. >> She's great. >> Oh. >> She's delightful. >> You're going to love her. >> Give me any tips. That would be great. >> I do think it's cool that she's chilling in the green room, allowing me to do this part of the show with you. >> Come on. You always have a home here. >> Thank you. I was just saying as we sat down that over 30 now, over 30 years of friendship, there are a number of CR looks that I feel that I get that I look forward to. Like some classic looks like one of my favorites was when I played you. My chemical romance is the black parade in the advanced CD in my apartment and just sort of watched you listen to it. >> Did I kind of like go on some morning, morninging that? >> No, you were. >> I was pumped up. >> Dialed in. You were dialed in. You have never been more focused in your life. But one of the more recurring looks that I enjoy is the look you give me when I am frantic and you are calm. >> My soul focus is just making the best possible content with you. >> Is that it? Is that true? >> You were here. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I know we're 80% there then. >> 90, honestly. >> Now, we are in a little bit of an in-between zone. And also, I would say, in this forest, two paths have diverged. Like we're not watching the same stuff every weekend and watching like we have the lowdown, we have black devs coming, we'll get into some other stuff that's coming. But I thought we could just do some news and I had a very active watching weekend, much of it hard-based because of Halloween. >> Yeah. >> That's what I assume. >> Talk a little bit about what I watched over the weekend. What have you been up to? I know it's family time. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for asking. Yeah, I'm back home. >> Just you and more of Joe Mo. >> Like just people who we expected more from. The defensive front of the Eagles and myself. >> Yeah. >> Which is the bigger letdown for you this fall. >> We can do after dark right now if you want. >> Right now if you want. >> Or the team. Well, the biggest thing that I don't think this is necessarily, I want to preface this. I don't know how interesting this is, but this is just the way parenting works, which is that as you know, I've spent years being like, to my children, you know, MCU phase two kind of rips. >> Oh my God. >> Yeah, some Marvel stuff. >> That might be fun. >> What is MCU phase two? >> I don't know. >> That post dark literally don't remember. But I've been trying to find a way, because they love the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. And I was like, you know, they're a huge part of a larger universe. They're like, oh, we're gonna be Tom Hardy. And I'm like, not that one. >> Yeah. >> But of course the way this works is, as you and listeners know, I've been away a lot of this fall, as I have almost every fall this time in the Great New York City. And this is the time that my older daughter has fallen. She's gone Marvel crazy. >> So you guys just churning through? >> Has she gotten to WandaVision AgathaVision Quest? >> No. So she is, first of all, she's watching them chronologically within the story. >> Yes. >> So apparently the ill-fated 2021 or 2020 Black Widow film is like next up, even though kind of a dark movie. >> Yeah. >> Well, you mean in terms of like Scarlet's relationship with Alan Horan and the leadership of Disney? >> I think more like being a child soldier, but yeah. >> Oh, yeah, totally, totally. But yes, it's been fascinating and big, big, big Tony Stark fan now. >> Cool. >> Big Downie, big Downie gal. >> And now are you doing like, are you living out and being like, he's actually an arms dealer. >> No, the movies do that, actually. The movies do a good job of interrogating. I would say the biggest thing was I made it home in time for Age of Ultron, which was interesting because you know, the psychovia chords are very important for us. >> They are. I mean, they're one of the foundational texts for this podcast. >> I know. And also just how we kind of view international diplomacy. You know what I mean? Like the straight-of-formos would have stayed open if Ultron. Well, if King Tachaka had been allowed to finish his speech at the convention in Vienna. But I was appreciative of a couple things. One, that she was willing to know that this movie was not great. Two, I would say that Josh Whedon's dialogue is pretty chopped as my child would say in that movie. >> Do you remember that it's been treated well by time. I wonder if his fortunes had been different in the personality department or in the kind of like public perception department. If people would be kinder, you know, if people would be like, "Do you think?" >> That was of the time that was like super like, "Do you think?" >> Amazeballs, Buzzfeed. That's how we talked, right? >> You're feeling about Age of Ultron. >> I mean, you were constantly like, "Dude, check out this awesome post where they can't decide what color the dress is." >> Oh, it's like that. But I just like to text you stuff to keep you engaged. Is your feeling about Josh Whedon's cancellation to paraphrase "Woke One" was crazy? >> No. >> Is that how you are in the record with that? >> I think the jury of his peers is spoken. It sounds like that's pretty definitive. >> I think there's a lot of time in that movie spent towards trying to nudge Bruce Banner and Natasha Romanoff into a romance. Do you remember that? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> That hasn't aged well. >> Why? >> Well, my daughter's a big Natasha steveshipper. >> I'm just fascinated. She's so lucky. >> She doesn't know that steves got like a one and only that he's going to spend the rest of time dancing with. >> Brother. >> Dr. Doom takes him out. >> Brother, that old bag died at the beginning of Civil War. >> Where's she back? >> Yeah, but we're not there yet. >> Okay. >> Anyway, all I want to say about that is that I also was like, do you want to go see Wildwood this weekend? Do you want to support the night family in there? >> No, but it does look beautiful and people really liked it. They did not want to see it. And I said, "Well, when's the last time you guys saw a movie in the theater?" And Audrey's like, "Oh, I saw a movie called Forgotten Island. Do you know about this? This was a kid's movie. There was out like a month ago. It was a cartoon. And this was a really chilling moment. >> I went to your daughter. I was like, I went and saw Yee-Yee at the new dev. >> She saw you can see everything. Just to feel closer to her dad. And I said, "What did you think of that movie?" And she said, "It was just noise. It's just a noisy movie." >> Do you really? >> It was cliche. And I was like, "Oh, no." >> You did it. >> Oh, no. The disease jumps generations. >> Before we get to what I watched this weekend, I just want to put out an official public statement. >> Okay. Which camera. >> Which is, is that my camera? Obviously, I'm aware that Michael Mann shot himself in the leg at a West Delay gun range. >> Oh, but thoughts went to you. >> I appreciate everybody reaching out. My comment is a gift of Robert De Niro saying that's the discipline in heat. If you live by the, I'd probably nine millimeter Beretta, then you may take a flesh wound by the nine millimeter Beretta. I am holding off on making too many jokes. >> Right. >> Because it's like, let's get a medical update on when an 83-year-old man shoots himself in the leg, even if it is just a flesh wound. >> Right. >> I suppose that like thoughts and prayers are with Mike Mann. >> Can I ask you something? Like, I know that my impression of like, Mike Mann the man. >> Yeah. >> From what we've heard and from stories people who spent time with him is that he does, he is really about that life. Now, I don't mean like gunplay, but I do mean that like, when he goes to Miami, he likes to be put on fast boats. >> I think it just a lot of votes. >> A lot of like, I wouldn't ask anybody to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. You know? >> Wow. Is he a fiend from Ojido? >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. So it is, yeah, I mean, I think the thing about this story was, and it is a genuine thoughts and prayer situation. You're not joking about that, but it is like, well, okay, that tracks like- >> As soon as he walks out of cedars with crutches and is like, then we can all, then I will start being like- >> Okay. >> Every time Michael Mann, like POV Michael Mann, and it's every time a guy in Michael Mann with these holding a gun on someone else. >> Yes. >> But, until then- >> Do you think this is connected to the fact that I believe it was announced just prior to this injury that the filming of "He Too" was delayed? >> Yeah. >> So is this like an idle hand situation? >> No, I think it was probably just like, he was just trying to get a feel for the old magic, you know? Get a feel for the, what is the graphite? What's the smell of gunpowder in the air? >> Thank you for asking me that. I'd loved to weigh in on it. >> What's the terwar of gunplay? Do you think anyone else was there with him, like any of the cast members? he was showing off. No, I don't think so. I think we would have heard by now. It was just like Adam Driver crying as Michael Mann gets wheeled out. Do you think 911 call would be released of Adam Driver? Dude, that would be really funny. This week and I watched two very interesting releases. I'm watching a number of things, but the two things I wanted to tell you about. Okay. A varying levels of success and interest, but I thought we're basically my favorite kind of use of the wild new digital marketplace of ideas that we exist in. One was a story of dairy, which was a surprise drop on HBO Max. Yeah, what's the deal with this? So this is a kind of appetite palate cleanser because welcome to dairy, which I believe air in 25, is not coming back until late 27 or 28. It welcomed a dairy, this sort of Stephen King series on HBO that the machetes do and the first one was set. I believe in the early 60s. The second season is going to be a great depression story about like bank robbers on the run. So this is like what we wanted the Nick to be, but they're doing it for the killer clown. Yes, but they take five years in between seasons. So so with the show not coming back to 28, they decided to throw up this 30 minute kind of quick and dirty action adventure horror episode about three young chakapi people come fronting a monster in the woods near their village. So it's like a, I know 18th century, early 18th century, I suppose. And, uh, Tom Clarenan is in it, um, shows up as a kind of weird, uh, ambiguous as to whether he's good or bad guy hanging out in the woods. Um, I'm not like so deep in Stephen King that I knew about this, but apparently the the turtle god that he yeah, he sees when he smokes his peace pipe in, in, in this episode is very important. Matturin. Oh shit. This is maturin. Do you know who I'm talking about? I'm familiar with other turtle gods, but this is interesting. Yeah. And it's the, I guess that, that turtle god plays a big role in the dark tower. So there's just, it was just like an interest service. What role could the turtle god play in the dark tower? Put your notes away. Talk to me. Well, you want me to actually calculate? Well, it's like, apparently it's like the turtle versus the evil is like the eternal battle. The turtle good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's balancing everything out. That's chill. Yeah. Okay. I mean, this is Steve King, man. I can't answer for what he was getting up to in the 80s. I think we all know he was getting up to, um, but this is, uh, directed by Taz Bichavez who did some stuff on reservation dogs and rather from falls. And I just thought it was very smart. It was very cool to just throw up something. It's actually got a lot of special effects. It's not cheap, but it was a very cool 30 minute little short story about this area, about the Daria area at a different time. The Daria. The Daria. The bear did this as well. Uh-huh. Um, with the, with Gary. Yeah. Gary, welcome to Barry. Yeah. Um, the Barry. Do you think that is a way forward for more nimble creative shows to navigate the delays? I wish there was a pluribus thing like this, for instance. Great example. It's just been examined announced that pluribus has begun shooting season two. Yeah. I saw a report that the scheduled shoot time is 255 days. That would track with the way Vince Gilligan productions have stretched before. I mean, better call Saul. But they never had the money to go 255 days for a season. Did they? I mean, that's an insane number of days, number of shoot days. So maybe I can't remember where I saw that, but it was like, people were commenting on it. Like, wouldn't it be cool to know you were employed for 215 days if you were working on a show? And that's awesome. But that show is not coming out until 2028. But do you think I feel like, but like do you think as a viewer, would you rather have the complete statements, meaning Vince Gilligan took a year plus with his group of writers to craft this, they're going to take what sounds like almost an entire calendar year to film and do post on it. And then what will be delivered will be the next definitive statement. Or do you wish it could get a little faster? I mean, he's a bad example because he is not a fast and loose guy. But for example, Widow's Bay will be off the air for a while. And Widow's Bay has been really nimble with the like, the trailers and stuff that predated the show with some of the travel footage and stuff like that. Like, would you be into a little drip drip of things like that? I prefer something like this, which even though it introduces apparently a very important character in the Stephen King universe feels like a contained story, I wouldn't want to feel like you had to watch this special to understand what's going to happen. You know, like I don't like the post credit sequentification of things. Like I would just like to have a cool story. And you know, Widow's Bay is a really good example of a show that has such a deep acting bench that it's like, could you do like a 30 minute Dale Dickey episode that kind of is in between the two seasons. And, you know, I just thought it was a really good idea. And also like, this isn't something that you have to now alert all the advertisers and change like a holiday themed as well. Yeah. So I was like, I don't really understand why more shows don't try to do stuff like this. I suppose I mean, something like Gary for the bear wound up being probably like not remarked upon very deeply that Richie was in that car. Accident, right? Well, I think in retrospect, I think I think I underrated, especially considering what the last season ended up being, I think I underrated what that episode was because there was a lot more of what I have what I loved about the show contained within that episode than there was in season five, I would say. So it was a nice gift in retrospect to have it and to have time with characters just kind of sinking in, which the last season did not give us a lot of space to do, both because of the what the show had become at the end and also because of the time constraint that it was basically at one night, one service. But the other thing in retrospect was that the final moments were ridiculous. Because the, the, I don't know whose idea it was or whether it was a note or whether it just came from the creative process that they felt the need to do connective tissue for people who don't know. I don't think this is, it's not even, it's not a, it's not a story. The entirety of the bear has been out for a while. But it's not just that the whole point of this anecdote is that it is not a spoiler that the end of this episode, Richie gets is back, we're back in the present the night of the fifth season. And Richie gets in a car accident and we cut to black and then the show came back. And the car accident was a minor inconvenience that did not even delay him getting to work. Yeah. That sucks. That piece of it. It didn't need it. It stood on its own. Yeah, I mean, I think you could make the argument that perhaps Richie is like, carpet dim, you know, we only live once and it could be taken away from us in a minute and like, let's try to make the bear work. And that's why I am the way I am. And maybe I should ask Jess out on a date or something. Did any of that happen? Yeah, it's broadly. Sure. I wonder, I mean, we can move on. But like to answer your first question in there, which is why more shows don't do it is because every, I mean, despite the larger budgets or the more attention or the larger amount of time, there isn't really anything with the structure of a TV writer's room and pre-production production that would allow a splinter unit to attend to something faster. Sure. It just, you're not built that way. Part of the reason why I've gotten kind of into this idea is like in, on English TV, where the, episode orders are much shorter. I think that there's more of a tradition of doing Christmas specials and doing one-offs like that, whether it's at the office or, you know, pulling from Sharon Horgan, did it, you know, like, should we call Sharon in early? I think that that's a fun way of doing things. But ultimately, like you start to get into, like, if you were doing, say, an X-Files-style show, you could say, well, we could do a monster of the week episode that feels like a one-off. So why do a Christmas special in this show? I think the bigger issue is, do you have, and I don't know how, I don't know how it runs its room, but it does sound like this was really a splinter unit, and that they brought in people to play in the universe with maybe some light supervision from someone. So that's really the only way that it could work, because if you have the core group of writer producers desperately tasked with getting the season ready, you can't really pull some of them off to do something unrelated. But if you have a pliable universe that could welcome other visions, you could do something like, invite, I don't know, Jordan Peel to do a Widow's Bay story, and you could do it at any time zone or whatever, or timeline. The other thing that I was thinking, and this is a bad example, because this is the one show that actually does keep a schedule, would be, you could do a pit night shift story. You could just do it, right? You could just do like a three episode or one episode or whatever. I would wonder whether or not at a certain point they would just be like, why don't we have just two pits on? That would be cool. Why not two pits? Why not two pits? The other thing that I watched that was a fun curveball was, Kerry Barker just put a five minute short film up on YouTube. Look at these guys. This is the new media. It's called Mama Bear, and it's a very intense, very unnerving, quick short film that some people have speculated takes place within the obsession world. We're not for obsession. I don't know that I, we're not for obsession's massive success. I don't know that I would make that jump, but I would, I watching it, rewatching it with that in mind, I was like, oh, I can see what this is what this might mean or how, why people might jump to this conclusion. Barker has said that obsession has a whole world in that movie and they just, you know, they didn't show it because of budget limitations. In the sense, that like there's more things to be obsessed over or like in the background wish willows, you know, like there's a lot of and who is, what is that office that he calls? Did you watch obsession? Oh, I thought you were like, I challenged myself to do those. I watch weapons. Oh, that's right. And I dialed up back rooms. And what happened when that when you still saved on this very laptop, brother? One of these flights locked it in. I don't think you're going to like back rooms. I downloaded two movies for my flight. Do you want to hear which ones? Back rooms. Didn't watch it. My dinner with Andre. Watch it. What a normative documentary. Okay. Irrelevant. How was it? Bad documentary, good subjects. Okay. Terrible documentary. Because it didn't. Have you watched it? No, I don't. I don't. I don't. I do find that like I am the problem because I do find that like Netflix has discovered this is a like a rich vein. And I think they've contracted the appetite company. If not, Judd Appetite himself to provide these. Yeah. Documentaries about comedians are very, very good plain fodder because worst case, you're getting a lot of classic comedy bits. Yeah, you get basically a highlight, highlight real estate. And in the absence of the Mark Maren podcast, which I miss very much, you do get to see people like Kevin Neal and being like, man, that was rough. And I love this. Yeah. But the framing device for this documentary about one of the funniest people ever is everyone falls into YouTube holes of Norm MacDonald. So the framing device is like close up on a screen, searching Norm MacDonald things. Uh-huh. And then like surfing through clips. And I'm like, the the last thing I want to see in a documentary is the experience of looking at my computer. That's also probably the last thing Netflix wants to see is people using YouTube. 100%. It's very weird. And also you have a subject who is fascinating and who just lied about everything all the time. And it just seems whether they didn't have access to or they didn't have the interest in. It doesn't really poke at that. Yeah. It's just like then he said this. And that wasn't true. He did go to college and you're like, and here's footage of him in college. Okay. But he's still making jokes about Hitler's dog and it's funny. Right. It's always funny. Uh-huh. So that Barker thing is up on YouTube. It's called Mama Bear. It's funny that you mentioned this experience of wait, I have an obsession question. Okay. Because we're just, now man, we haven't had time to talk like this. No, of course. This is what it's really like. Yeah. I just wanted to know I was getting some feedback from my sources that Indy never already was. She hosted SNL. She did a very good, very good job. I heard not that. I heard that was not the case. I heard it was a heat check moment for your sources. I can't, I can't pull my sources. Who are your sources are your daughters? No. I thought they would be my sources because Gracie Abrams was the musical guest. And then I was told they don't care about that. Okay. It's like whoa. I can't keep up. So no, but tell me you thought she was good. That's it was fine. Yeah. I mean, I thought that especially the digital shorts that she did were very good. Great. Yeah. I was just concerned trolling. I'm just happy. You know how important the role of Rose. She did. She threw an inside fastball at Shane Gillis in her monologue. How do you feel about that? It's really. You worried? House divided. That's true. I got to say I don't want to blow any sources here. But when I had a I dinner with you and your wife and she was heated about Shane Gillis. She was. Yeah. I mean, famously she's she shares her thoughts and opinions. Yeah. I don't think she's not retiring. Maybe the nuance of Shane's political idea. She was lost. And I know that she doesn't listen to this podcast. So you feel safe talking about it. I mean, I'd not say that she sees eye to eye of the Shane, but Shane's much taller than her. So she wouldn't, you know, also the fact that like he is a fan of the right sports teams doesn't really carry as much water with her. What I think it does with the Eagles. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's right one anymore. You think you don't. You're switching allegiances. No, sorry. Curry, Curry Barker. Yada, yada. He put up a fight. I mean, he's one of the biggest film young filmmakers in the world and they put up a five minute short on YouTube. Well, it is. That's cool. It is we. I mean, this is largely I see why you did this now. This is largely part of the same story, which is it is odd that like, look, I think it is broadly good that movies are back in the sense that people seem to understand that like making something special, putting it into place where we can see it all together is worth it. Yeah. So in that sense, still being, you know, tying yourself to the old machinery of entertainment and consumption can be good. But it's such a time of complete access to everyone at all times and nimbleness inside and outside of the machinery. I think it is good when people who come from the outside like Curry Barker or what's his name, Mr. Backrooms, Kane Parsons, Danny Backrooms. Yeah. I think he's in Griselda, actually. They should still do the sound effect. What's the backroom set effects? I'm in a little space. I'm in a band of mom. If you understand the vent, if you are the vent diagram backrooms in Griselda, then that's fine. You need to stand up right now, whatever you're doing. Take the money out of the till. I think that's good. That's good for the culture. One of the reasons why I think Welcome to Dairy was a smart move was on Halloween night. Yeah. Wife and I get home really time to get scared. And I was just opening up various services, various streaming services that I subscribe to. Right. And it was right there. And it was like shock drop Welcome to Dairy Halloween timed special on HBO Max on HBO Max. And I was like, that's fucking smart, man. Yeah, that was good because they knew a Sheridan should drop a July 4th landman. Oh, yeah. Everyone should own their holiday. Yeah. That's really smart. I think Taylor Sheridan should drop an election day episode. Just different characters of his voting. Just different characters of his. Yeah. And stick around. Just believe up. Do you think anybody in any Taylor Sheridan show has ever prominently displayed their I voted sticker? Oh, great question. I think all of them have opinions about Hassan Piker. Yeah. Strong opinions. Halloween, I'm glad you were able to scare yourselves because we did you and I did speak as the sun was setting on Halloween. And you did ask me if my kids were ready for big boy Halloween. You're like, they ready to get scared tonight. You were like, are they do amateur hour? I didn't know. I was just I was just curious whether or not they were they were going out in Lorraine or Randy Los Angeles. Yeah. We were Halloween. And then if they were like tonight, we get to watch Nightmare on Home Street or something. Yeah. No. Okay. Not at all. One thing that we did after we got home, we eventually watched like some classic horror movies. But for a while, I was playing around with this weird site that I kind of came across via YouTube, via Instagram. Sorry. Called Splunker. It's I think it's called Splunker.tv. And it's essentially like a retro cable guide. Like the way it used to look when you would boot up your system in the, I don't know, like 90s and S P E L U N K R dot TV. Yeah. And it basically was formatted like an old old cable guide or TV guide on your TV with set channels. So there's not a like what you would find out like to be necessarily. But these channels will range from public access, mood shows, old Bob Ross episodes. I'll name some channels. Saturday morning, showing blocks of cartoons from like the 80s and early 90s, late night local. So local programming. Happy trees, all Bob Ross painting, library card, Mr. Rogers, reading Rainbow, Arthur, cartoon. The one that I went right to, which is Radio Active TV, which currently is playing MTV's Dream Time from December 94, which was all the things that were on between midnight and dawn. That's fucking crazy. And MTV 120 minutes from the 90s. This is everything I've ever wanted. So I just went to, they have like three horror sci-fi channels towards the bottom there. And for a while, like graveyard shift. I put on one of those channels, which was just, you know, some vampire hunters of planet Z thing from the 50s. And then I threw on a John Carpenter soundtracks playlist. And I just vied out. Did you and Phoebe just slow dance? Like Steve Rogers and Peggy, who chased each other around the apartment. Either one. That's beautiful. You really set the mood. Do you change the lights up a little bit? I'm actually a huge, I like the orange glow thing. You know, if you write about how it's like very popular now to have like very orange light bulbs. No, Kaya. Yeah. Kaya didn't even have to speak. She just nodded like this is, you know, it's an aesthetic choice trying to sell me last night on this like, they're like $160 for four lamps. And they like change with the like so they go into like sunset mode. Yeah. I know it's like that feels like a lot for lamps. I highly recommend anybody who's like streamer now. I can't decide what to watch. This is an incredibly fun vibe because a lot of this is pulled from our sort of either what we were watching on reruns. Yes. Or what was on at the time for us when we were younger. But the time part is really important. I think this is what's really hard to communicate and what I do miss was there was a sense of. We had we had clocks. Look, it wasn't the dark ages, but you always had in the back of your mind a sense of what was on television at the different times of the day. Sure. And this obviously came in. This is a really big deal when you were home sick because if you could make it through the more. It's always I was already always ready to play like sake one. He didn't call it huge. I never sat down like sake one because you were always on a bike saying I'm smart. I'm smart. Had that go over in class. It's cool. So if you got through the gauntlet of soap operas in the morning, then you could make it to game shows, which was great. And then in the early afternoon is when you might get a surprise like movie channel heater, you know, you might suddenly get like, you know, you know, movie was on every day at 1 p.m. I think between the years 1986 and 1996, what was the Tom Hanks Jackie Gleason movie Nothing In Common? Yeah. I know that one. I believe. But then later on the way, then after school, you would get like, you get the old sitcoms, but then as we, as we grew older, you would get home in time for like the rich eyes and stewards got sports center. And then you could sort of coast from there into maybe MTV had something good or maybe there would be a surprise. I don't know. Yeah, I would just use TV is like the night light that people use their phones for now. I would just throw it on, especially once I moved out of the house, it was just like when I would get in to my apartment, I would throw on the TV and it would just be ESPN or Fox Soccer Channel or MTV all day. And look at you. Successful. We built this country on guys like me, you know, it was easy like where your parents pretty like, oh, you're not feeling well, you can stay home or they like, no, get, get dressed. I, I've never heard my parents use that tone, you know, no, there, well, no. I mean, the thing is, is that the difference was when you were, you kid, couldn't stay home alone. So often I would have to go to work with my mother who was a teacher, which in retrospect is insane because I was shit actively shedding virus of whatever the type was at the time, but like hanging out in the faculty lounge of the school where she taught. Yeah. But then later, the real breakthrough is when you could stay home alone. And then I remember wonderful things like, like, oh, I, I remember seeing the Oasis video for supersonic, like 1 p.m. change my life, change my life, um, what about you, your, what are your parents tough on you about that? I just don't remember getting a lot of sick days. Like, it would have to be, I'd have to be like really spiking a fever. Right. Like, dudes were just always sniffling in my, my school. Because they were cocaine addicts. What do you mean? Like, it's like everybody had a cold in Philadelphia for 20 years. But by the way, that's still what the East Coast is. There is, when people talk about like the sound of London, it's people with learning murky. Yeah. That's just, that's also because they like smoke watermelon vapes all day long. They do. They do. Uh, I want to tell you a little bit about, um, the show that I'm probably most excited for for the rest of my professional life. Oh, wow. Okay. NBC has ordered a gender swapped, uh, procedural version of the great Gatsby hell. Yeah. About time. This is from deadline. A modern day police procedural about, uh, detective J Gatsby, a devilishly charming investigator with a con man's gift for reading human being. And a decorated New York state police detective named Nicole Nikki Carroway, who was born to be a cop, but dreams of becoming a writer. And I didn't know like, do you know what's great Gatsby, like now, uh, public domain, public domain. What gave you that idea? Yeah. So it, you have to go 100 years since this publication to do that. I believe it was 75. And then there was a lot of Mickey Mouse litigation, literally, because they didn't want to lose the rights to their signature care, showing up in places she shouldn't like in the back rooms, in the back rooms, get into back rooms and goofies there. That would be terrifying. I hate that. Um, yes. So this is fun in public domain theater. Uh-huh. I think this is hilarious. It's really funny. Honestly, I applied NBC. This is, what's incredible about this is this is kind of like a punchline to a joke about what made CBS, the absolutely dominant number one network for 20 years, because there was no public domain idea that couldn't be turned into a weekly procedural. Uh-huh. Um, I mean, we, we had the, there are many iterations of Sherlock Holmes. There's, there's Watson. There's, this is just what they do is anything can be a procedural. Um, I think there's been like Einstein procedials or like, like, this is what they do. The fact that they've taken the great Gatsby and been like, this too can be a police procedural. I mean, respect, like not even, not even the great Les Moonfists, you know, I was half convinced that this was a viral marketing plan for a 30 rock reboot. Yeah. This is a real genocide. But I also am somewhat intrigued by taking early 20th century American literary classics and dick wolfing them. Why does it have to be American? Like, don't you think there's a great medical procedural in the magic mountain? No, it really is. We're like, this is, I know you're just kind of men say that you've read magic mountain. Who? You haven't? Oh, I'm sorry. You haven't read Tom's mind back in the news, though, because that movie Fatherland's kind of about him, right? I didn't know that. Or the man's, isn't it? Yeah. Do you think Michael Mann and Thomas Mann have a deep connection? I think they both care about gun safety. Probably too. I, uh, and that gun safety starts with knowing how to use a gun. What? And not discharging it into your own. It was holstered. It was holstered. It was. He was holstering it. I think it was holstered. And then what? And then it went off accidentally accidentally because he pulled the trigger. I don't know. I don't think. I don't think. Don't leave me laugh because like, I don't, I just want him to be okay. We all want that. Yeah. A little bit of tidying up here, you know what I mean? Tightening it. Just. Yeah. What other works of the American canon, like East of Eden, for example, you could do it the way Zoe could sanded it. Sure. What if you could do it as solving crimes on the Dustball, Dustball road? Yeah. I think that's fine. Detective Jude. The sad truth is you say the word detective in it wasn't like any capacity. Yeah. Like this is interesting. Yeah. This is interesting. Yeah. It's just, it's just, I mean, I guess we're just cooked, right? Like I guess that's what we're doing. We're beyond cooked, brother. We're like freeze-dried astronaut food right now. Oh, yeah. That's all, that's okay. Yeah. The astronaut's got to go to space. Did you mention, you mentioned that, that Nikki Caroy's gender swapped, right? Yeah. That's pretty, that's pretty brave. That's pretty forward thinking. Yeah. But isn't there also, I don't know how Daisy fits in here. Oh, but I bet the real heads will check for it. Yeah. You know, do you think, do you think, could we, could we workshop a larger F Scott Fitzgerald verse? Like, do you think tender is the night, like detective Dick Diver? Is that the one at Princeton? I mean, they're all, no, that, that's beautiful in the damn. No, tender's the night is in, is in, that's the merry couple who are like always fighting. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, I remember loving. It's beautiful. Yeah. But so in that, they are kind of a squabbling, married couple of detectives, like, like a heart, what was it called? Heart, heart and heart. What was, remember that show that was on ABC? It's like that. Moonlighting. It's like moon lighting, but they're in France and they drink a little bit. They're investigating some. Precision crimes. I feel like we got a recent, we got to move that, we got to domesticate that. To bring, bring, sit tender is the night back to the Chicago BD area. Back to the larger Chicago verse. Would you like to hear about some of the rest of the shows that are coming out this year? As, as obvious, made obvious by the rest of this podcast, we've kind of skipped over a bunch of stuff. Do you think? Well, there's a lot of stuff that's on right now. I mean, Joe and I talked about Kerry and Crystal Lake. I, I didn't really ever get into war, the show and HBO currently. Gilded age came back last night. Big cameos in it, people are talking. Big cameos. Damon walking out of George Russell's house, I, I love Gilded age. I just, I think I hit a, I know, a time spent limit with it. Do you want to talk about Reggie Jenkins briefly? Uh-huh. Because that's back. It is back today, right? It's back tonight. We don't have to get. I mean, I don't think you can really spoil Reggie Jenkins. It's, it's, he's still Reggie Jenkins and Daniel or I could have still living in his house, making a documentary about him. Uh, here's my one note about the one episode of season two that I watched. Okay. I'm worried it was made only for us. It's so good. The niche jokes in this. There is a Pablo Torrey joke in the first episode. Yeah. And I'm, I'm just like, you guys have to have a bigger tent. If you want to stay up on, on Jay Gatsby's NBC, do you think? Not to get too inside baseball, but do you think, do you think Pablo took our advice when we, we spoke to him and asked him to just lay off the sixers? Do you think he's going to listen to us? I'm a person. The sixers are going to be too big, too big to fail. Do you think? Yeah. Do you think they are? Do you know how to change my. Can you hear us say that? They changed my, like last night when we were watching eagles, not together, but virtually together. Right. And the camera cut to Josh Harris. Yes. Who's had some ups and downs in the news over the years. Yeah. I was like, this is the owner of the commanders and the sixers of my life right there. You trust him. Now I do. Yeah. Now I do. Uh, tonight's premiere of Reggie Jenkins is pure joy. Mm-hmm. It is so funny. And the cutaways, like no one does this better than Robert Karlock and his married band of pranksters. But like, there's a cutaway to Reggie Jenkins hosting Saturday Night Live. I guess in an alternate universe where a Tracy Morgan does not exist. It is quite funny. There's cutaways to his, uh, Quanza album, which I believe I found. I, I think I violated the NDA by filming that joke in my apartment in New York and sending it to you just to tell you that we are acting into doing that. I just want you to know where I'm at. Yeah, you know, audio visual. The show is amazing and I got to say like no one does it as well as they do, but it did make me yearn for not to make this entire podcast nostalgic, but like in era of comedies that really were comedy forward. I think that we've done, we collectively, our culture has done great work with the half-hour space and serializing it and finding ways to tell different types of stories that we're talking about Widow's Bay. We didn't talk about it, but Kaya's colleague, Amy Poler, has a new show coming out called "Dig" and we'll talk about it and the trailer looks promising, but again, it also seems highly serialized, like this is a show about people doing something in pursuit of something larger than "Cutaway Jokes" and comedy. Reggie Jenkins is so pure, man. It's just funny. It's just funny, you know? My life is always greatly improved by having something like this on. Yeah. I was marginally improved, you know? My life has been improved since the show came back. Yeah, so excited for everybody to watch Reggie Jenkins and please do watch because we love that show and it sounds like it is like a bit of a bubble show, you know, when I was surprised it came back, honestly. Were you? Yeah, a little bit. Were you? No, but the numbers are totally opaque. I mean, this is a show that is. So, the paper, which we didn't really cover, but I did watch the whole second season, is a peacock original that then goes to NBC. For the second season, they aired on NBC. Like concurrent or parallel to it? I think there was a significant overlap. It was a very small window in which they did that. Okay. Jenkins is an NBC original, so it's getting a lot of, like during the football game, that we may or may not continue to talk about. They're advertising it a lot on their broadcast, but I would imagine most people that are listening to us will check it out the episodes when they hit peacock after it airs. So, I don't understand what they're doing and I don't understand what the revenue stream for it is if it has a larger budget because it's on NBC or not or a longer leash or shorter leash, but I don't think it should matter. They're making something really good. Yeah, I mean, I still think that there is like, whether it's just because I associate the opening NBC logo chime with good comedy. I still think they are making some good comedies over there and I'd love for them to continue to do this one specifically and the paper and and you know, do you watch the other ones? I feel like they have other shows. There's like a St. Dennis Medical. I've never seen that. I watch like the first season of that on and off. Yeah. Is it pleasant? Yeah, for sure. Does it fill the super store size hole in your heart? Because that's one of your secret ones. You watch that show. Yeah, you know what it is? It's just like in like sometimes it'll just be like, like we'll get to a day and we're just like, there's nothing related to watch, you know, and I don't feel like, you know, watching a Yakuza movie. This, this, this kind of fits right in there. Totally. Totally. You're the rest of the year so far. Okay. It's not so far. This is the year. All right. The next two big ones. Black Doves comes back on Thursday. So exciting. Joe Barton's morbidly funny, awesome, like Wiki and Assassin's show starring Karen Nightland Ben Wyshaw. And I believe like Sam Riley is joining the cast this year. I'm not sure who else, but our man from Alien, whose name I'm going to blank on our man from Alien Earth. The one. Obviously, say it's on show this. Yeah. This, uh, I'm really excited to have this back. I, I, I think there's an embargo on thoughts and opinions about it. I'm enthusiastic. I'm very enthusiastic. And I also just, you know, want to say that, like, you know, Joe and I are both longtime fans of Tottenham Hotspur. So I feel like there's a sense of like a mordantly funny, like a little bit self-lacerating, but like ultimately hopeful. If somebody's just listening to this podcast the first time they're going to think you're telling the truth. I always want them to think I'm telling the truth. I learned that from the Norm McDonald documentary. I watched on an airplane on Friday. It's very successful strategy. Uh, Black Dose is, is it awesome show? I'm excited to talk, hopefully to Joe about it with you, uh, sometime in the next couple of weeks because because Liverpool down bad right now. Liverpool's fine. You think? Yeah. Do you know how to read the table of the Premier League standings? I just feel like that was a tough loss this weekend. Well, the refs are corrupt. Um, they definitely aren't. Okay. He's actually fucking Jersey got yanked. Okay. Okay. Blue lights that I think it's the angriest you've ever been on this podcast because I'll entertain this like I love spurs. I've been down with spurs for a long time. I'm like, I love to humor you. How many matches have there been this season? Uh, I don't know, like nine, 10. I watch them. Okay. Okay. Uh, blue lights is coming back for its fourth season on brick box. I really love this show. Um, it's probably one of the best most well done cop shows on TV right now. How many seasons have aired and how many episodes per season? What do we get? What are we looking at? I think it's six episodes per season and this is the fourth season solid. They are a full hour, but they you can get through them pretty fast and they a lot of people have brick box add-ons with their Amazon Prime speaking of Amazon Prime. They're big show down the stretch here is rings of power, uh, which we we kind of tapped out on during season one, but sounds like Soron is really, uh, work in the magic. I think he gets the ring here. No. Well, I think he made the ring, right? Well, yes, you're not a JRRT guy. Are you? I like turtle gods. Yeah. I don't know. No, did you read? I'd ever I read fellowship. Mm-hmm. I think yeah, I read fellowship of the ring a long time ago, like in high school or something. Yeah. And then I love the movies. I'm talking ignorant. Okay. Uh, one spot. The altruists is, uh, the San Bateman freed show on Netflix, and in which I mean, uh, it's a show about, uh, the FTX collapse, starting Julia Garner and end our business, our man from, uh, say nothing. Okay. Anthony Boyle. That's right. Uh, this is coming out at a time where I think on one hand, you could say these kinds of, uh, tech finance collapses are are very much in the news and very much in the zeitgeist with you can see everything and with artificial getting such good reviews and possibly being an Oscar contender. Um, I was curious about, is this the kind of like, do you like watching shows about like watching stories about these people fictionalized or otherwise? Um, historically no. Okay. But I'm interested in, I'm pretty ignorant of this. I don't know the details of this case. I did not read the Michael Lewis book. I don't really wasn't really paying attention to it. Um, I liked Julia Garner. And I liked the trailer for the show a lot in the sense that it seemed to have a very specific point of view and aesthetic decision making behind it. So I'm, I want to give this one a chance. Uh, secret service is one that I just came across. It's got an email about this. Yeah. Where it's on MGM plus, there's funny. It's James Poniozic wrote a New York Times article today about the American hostage show, the, the, the, with John Ham. Ham and Rebusy show. Yeah. And he, but the thrust of it was, this is pretty good, but I can't, good conscience tell you to subscribe to another service just to watch it. And about the kind of, I just the, the creep of, if you have like, shutter and country roll and Paramount and HBO Max and Netflix and Disney and, and all of these things, the enormous bill that you're paying if you don't want to watch ads as well. Uh, and even sometimes if you do watch ads, like it still piles up. And these shows that are specifically on like MGM plus and epics and stars and these kinds of things, I think are sometimes fall a little by the wayside because of it. But this is a, uh, Gemma Ardeton and Rafe Spall. Love Rafe. British political conspiracy thriller about, uh, an MI6 agent who learns that a British politician might be a Russian asset, which is my shit. Did he read the Patrick Red and Keefe book because I feel like the answer's yes. The answer is probably yes. Yeah. Did you, have you watched the hostage show? The, I haven't. I gotta be honest with you. I thought I was going to be providing some real boots on the ground journalism. I thought that I was like, you know, doing our fabled, we'd love to talk about New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman's columns, where he takes a taxi right in Karachi. The second or third time he's come up on this pod in the last two weeks. I love it. Well, we're all looking at the news these days and we're looking for Tom to let us know what's going on, but I thought I was going to have some real insight to you because I was on the plane and I saw someone fire up what I believed to be American hostage, like instantly, like as soon as we sat down and was like really riveted. And then I realized he was just watching the town. Do you ever feel like when you're on a plane and you're watching someone just grind tape? You're like, I wish it could be so simple for me. I wish I didn't go into it with somebody priors, you know? Yes. And I could just do Ted Lasso season four. Well, like on this flight, the woman next to me did something that I really admired that she found a show that they had multiple episodes of. And I have no idea what it was. It seemed to be like a, like a high school football show, but it wasn't fire night lights. I completely unfamiliar with the show. They seem to have unlimited episodes of it available on Delta. And she fired up the show and then went about her life. She did work emails. She looked at some spreadsheets. I believe she napped for a while. And the entire flight it was just had the season going. It was just going. Yeah. That's the visionary. That's the kind of offense I need to be running. That's spread off. That's the McVeigh tree. Yeah. We're just watching everything all of the time a little bit. Dig is coming on peacock. Obviously, Amy Polar's first sitcom or or show really since parks. Yeah. Is that right? That's right. And you Lori. This looks delightful. This is obviously We have a lot of affection for. Amy's work both on screen and on Mike here. But I think that this looks like a delightful show. It's about an archaeological dig in Greece. And I think our favorite Greek American, Jason Menzouk, is appears on it. And it's just a really like good idea for a setting for this kind of like heartfelt comedy. Well, to make sure, yeah, so excellent. Yeah, I'm like, sure, Kai, you want to weigh in on this? Any dig thoughts? I'm very excited. Are you, how deep are you in the dig verse? Have you already watched the whole season? Are you, you make a cameo? No, I'm a woman of the people. I'll see it. Same time as everybody else. That's beautiful. It hasn't, you haven't changed. The, a couple of the things that are worth keeping eye on, Blade Runner 29, nine. Is that going your token bag of not, I don't engage with the wider Blade Runner universe? I think, no, I'm, how do you feel about this? Like, I think that it should be okay to cap things, meaning like, I would, I think it should be normalized to be a fan of something and then be able to like tap out and be like, you know what? Yeah. For me, Blade Runner ended with Ryan Gosling. Yeah. For me, the great Gatsby is just sort of last page. That's it. You know, the gap. It was so expanded. It ended in 2049. I think that's a good run of time. Now there are people coming up behind us, the younger generation Gen Z and their time window on this earth amongst replicants is maybe stretches longer than us. It's time to seed it to the next generation. Well, Hunter Schafer's in this one with Michelle Yo and I am very curious about it. I am, I'm pretty fired up about like, that Blade Runner world. I think I'm curious to see how they render the world and the city escape in a TV setting and whether or not it feels a little dire when the movies you're kind of like in a finite space. Well, we talked about this. I think when the trailer dropped and I don't have any insight knowledge here but I did. My spider sense went up off a little bit when I think Amazon presented it as a like event, limited event, what I don't believe that was how it was initially. Right. They were like, maybe this could be an ongoing series. Now I respected if they were like, Silke Louisa and her team have told a wonderful finite story and it's just another chapter in it and we'll do a Blade Runner 21 17 or something. I don't know, at some point. Yeah. But we'll see. Frisco King, which I just wanted to mention, it's a Paramount Plus show. Yeah. It's Samuel L Jackson, which I think deserves some attention in the first place. And this was, I thought going to be a Taylor Sheridan in name only production. No brother. Somebody else is going to handle the writing and the executive producing of it. Much like say, Dutton Ranch or something like that or later period Mayor of Kingstown. Taylor Sheridan wrote all of these episodes. Yes, he did. What is being described as a crime comedy spinoff of Tulsi King, which Taylor Sheridan never really worked on very much except for the pilot episode. That was legendarily him and Terrence Winter. We're going to do Tulsi King. And then I think it just got lost in the Sylvester Stallone washer dryer system. So I don't know what to expect from this, but it feels like it could be totally very different for Sheridan. I'm very interested in this for a number of reasons. One, Sam Jackson's doing a TV show. Yeah. I do love a crime comedy. It's Seton Dallas. We're big fans. I have love. I mean, this weekend was all right. I love the Tulsi King universe. And much like Terry Barker with obsession. I want to know where else the story can go. Where else is there hidden royalty? I know. It's very exciting. But it is also very, one of the reasons why I think you, and you're very tuned to what Taylor Sheridan is up to day-to-day. The story of this show is that a writer named Dave Erickson was announced as the writer and showrunner in June 2025. And in July, it was announced that he had left the series due to scheduling conflicts in Taylor Sheridan would write the whole thing. It's also supposed to be called Nola King. Oh. And they moved it to North Texas. They moved it to Frisco. So. Interesting. Well, I am interested in this shadow universe that Taylor Sheridan has created that may outlive his connection to Paramount. Yeah. And I do not mean this in any disparaging way, because the larger Frisco King production could be incredible. And it could be star-studded with-- It's not. It had never heard of-- That was my point. Yeah. I'm looking at the cast, and this is no disrespect, because I barely-- Yeah. I don't know anything. I'm not supposed to do this, but I've never heard of anyone else on this show. And I kind of think that's incredible. Yeah. The Sam Jackson. I mean, I think someone should do, and I don't think anyone will, because everyone's quiet about these things. But like, you know how at the end of the year, Hollywood Reporter does the actors' roundtable. And they bring like all the contenders for the Oscars together. And it's usually like Lacey Rose, like, does a little roundtable or whatever. I would love an end of the year actors' roundtable of the Septogenarians who have agreed to make money on Taylor Sheridan. Oh, like Helen Mirren. Helen Mirren, Harrison Ford, Morgan Freeman, Sam Jackson, Sylvester Stallone. Yeah. Talk to me. And you got the check, and you said, what? So you wanted to be Charlie Rose, not Lisa. I wanted to be you, but okay, I want a Rose doing the interview. Yeah. Right. Right? Yeah. Wouldn't that be fascinating? Like, if all the things of going on in the business right now, like, I think that would be really interesting. Yeah. Do you think they talk to each other? Oh, I'm sure they're like, what's it like? Right? Now they all come out and say, like, Taylor Sheridan made me live in a cabin and stuff like that. Right. I don't know how true that stuff is. But obviously, like, Helen Mirren, just, you know, does TV now. I mean, and also, people seem to like making these shows. Yeah. This is not just us trying to like look for dirt here. I just find it really fascinating, the sort of the whisper network of like, older, famous people being like, this is a pretty sick gig that's available to us. The last big show that we should mention is just HP sauce, man. The big wizard Harry Potter come in on HBO. Christmas day. Did you know that? I did know that. Yeah. Are any of the Eagles playing on Christmas day? Who? I'm only interested in flying owls on Christmas day with my brother. That's all I'm doing. I honestly, the Eagles being what they are is good for the Potter numbers and the, you know, in the tri-state area, I think. Sure. More people will be tuning in. Should we do a heat check on like, what's your, what's your, what's your interest level here? Let's be honest. Like, what can we do? If you were not involved at all. Yeah. I would probably not engage with it at all, but, you know, just out of like, I've never, I've never really engaged with Harry Potter. But are you going to lean in and look for all the little Easter eggs I sprinkled into all of you? Yeah. Yeah. It's just when something is like named the Wizard of Aramingo. Yeah. All the things I did. I just like, yeah, a little like, I tried to steer it more in the direction of like a private show, you know, set in the 90s, a little wizard who goes to use records. I did what I could. No, it's like instead of going to King's Cross Station, they go to like, honest John's records in Portobello Road. There you go. I mean, I am, I'm very excited for people to see the show. It's been very fun to work on. Thanks for coming by today. This is fucking, no, I'm saying thanks for coming by today. I mean, theoretically, this is my job. Yeah, theoretically, theoretically. No, I really, I always love doing this with you in person, man. I want to remind you, you know, of what, what, where the magic is, should I move to New York? No, can I come back here? No, I want to have a cold for nine more months. Not great. Do you, do you want to do any after dark or Sharon, Sharon getting, is she good? She want to come in and talk sports with us? No, we're going to do Sharon. We're going to come by in a minute. Are you out on the Eagles? We don't have after dark lighting, but are you going to keep watching? It's pretty tough. It's pretty tough. Now, we were having a conversation. I'll say this. I said it in the text and I just want to say it with my full chest. I feel quite calm about this. I do not feel, I know you heard, but that text everyone. I know. I mean, I much like Norm McDonald, I wonder if you're telling the truth. No, no, I am. It is actually a relief. Okay. That is a catastrophe, because then you can be a little bit more dispassionate about it, and it's not, you're not riding the Hopium roller coaster every week. If only this, like, I don't think we're a few plays away. Last night it was terrible. Like last night was bad football that we were too close. We were within touching distance of winning, so I couldn't stop. Right. And it was the commander. So you're like, anything had happened. You know, like Jane McDaniel, Jane Daniels could like blow out his elbow. The next guy could throw seven in interceptions we'd win. Yep. That a lot of the games have been that way, where it's like, we're only down 11, you know, or we just took the lead with eight seconds left. Right. Come on. I think it's okay. I think it's fine because we have the Sixers. If we didn't have the Sixers, if the Sixers were like two and ten right now, I think it would be tough. We also won the Super Bowl. Yeah. I know. Are you being like completely chill and fine about this throws me off? This is more, this tracks more with what I believe to be the nature of the world. But I, but I, I want to, I want to believe it. But don't you feel like you spend so much time reading about these guys and following along on like the offensive lineman's social media? I do. Then don't you feel a little let down when you get before Thanksgiving or seasons over? No, because I have La Barron file on like taking a charge. There you go. We have always, what is the, what is the thing like we've always been at war with whatever? We have always been a Sixers first household. We really have been. I mean, originally, yeah, that was maybe one of the. the context for us. Yeah, it was Alan Iverson. Um, yeah, over the next couple of episodes. So Thursday, we're going to do some black doves and some lowdown. Uh, I'm going away on vacation, coming up. So I, my, my appearances may be spotty for two episodes after that, but I'm hardcore back on like November 19th. We lift you up. Thank you. This is the time there was one set of footprints in the sand. That was when Kaya was reminding me to book someone. I look forward to your 45 minute solo pod that is inevitably incoming. No, no, no, no. I love it when you do that when you're just like, I, you know, like, I really don't know if I haven't. Then it's just like bang, 45 minute blackout, just like riffing on the news. Do you think that? That's you. It's a great job. So really what I should be doing is thanking you for stopping by. Thanks. Because otherwise, I had it all. You keep the seat warm for me. I had it dialed in. Thanks to Kaya and Kaya, Sharon who we're going to up next to talk about youth. See you soon. Sharon, thank you so much for joining the watch. I love the first season of youth. It was something in my wife and I really enjoyed as approaching 50, like enjoyed watching this together. You know, I'd read in the New Yorker that your pitch to Casey Blois about this show was kind of not as much of a pitch as it was a state of the union of how you were doing and where you were kind of seeing yourself. Yeah, kind of, I mean, he was, I mean, we went in there to not to pitch a show. We went in there to sort of actually hustle, hustle a deal for Murma, production company. And then he just said, what do you, what do you, you know, what are you working on at the moment, what you're thinking about? And so it wasn't a pitch. It was just sort of like, well, I've been, you know, needling on this idea of capturing this time of my life now in a similar way that pulling did with my 30s and catastrophe did with, you know, starting a new family and and marriage and, uh, you know, and I gave a few little examples of what was going on in my life from a dating perspective that I thought were kind of funny. And, uh, and mentioned the idea of it of focusing on the sandwich generation. You know, so we just chatted about it and then on to something else and then he contacted my agent and when we, I know exactly what it is. Let's do it. I was like, I don't even know. That's what I was curious about is this when it comes from a little bit more of, um, impressionistic kind of like, here's sort of what I've been thinking about. Does it change the writing and the creative process for you a little bit? Like have other series that you've worked on come from a similarly like, I'm just trying to zero in on what kind of things I'm interested in right now. What do they have, like more of a hooky kind of thing? Well, I guess there's usually more of a more of a hook. Yeah, um, you know, with with pulling it was, you know, on the sort of eve of her of her marriage. She like, besides she hasn't lived and, um, with catastrophe, it was about, you know, how difficult it is to stay in and love if you're, you know, parents of young children, but also the the premise was, you know, they it was, she gets pregnant after a six night stand and, you know, American and an Irish woman. And so that was hooky and bad. This is obviously. Yeah. Huge hook, you know. Yes. Um, more familiar genre like for people. Yeah, exactly. Very genre. Um, but this, yeah, I get, well, you know, the hook, if there if there was one is, you know, a woman who thinks she's about to have the freedom she wants to sort of start again, you know, um, her, you know, and that gets taken away from her when her son, you know, everything goes tits up for him and he's comes back from university. Comes back, you know, all her life plans are, you know, um, tossed up in the air. Apart from that, it was really just the circumstance of being this age and suddenly just having this double load. Yeah. And also, by the way, why is that such a well kept secret? It's like, it's like childbirth, you know, we don't really talk about it. I mean, that wasn't passed down to me. No, I mean, most of the things that are happening to me at this point in my life, I'm like, this would have been great to have a class on this at some point. I've been trying to talk about that really, you know, I mean, it's your parents are getting older and and or ailing or, you know, in some cases, dying and, and our, you know, our kids aren't sort of ready to start adulting themselves. And, you know, it isn't really, really specific time and, and, and, and life with difficulties. And, and yet that's kind of, I feel that information wasn't disclosed. Well, one of the things that struck me, I guess I, for some reason, it didn't quite occur to me that the title of the show could just be referring to this and that this is kind of like, a not a very novel observation. But you go through this kind of second childhood second, it's, yeah, hormonally, like, I'm with the second teenage them. Yeah. And you are kind of like, trying to reestablish your identity at this period. And I, I wonder whether or not that actually becomes incredibly fun to write for, even if it's not always so fun to live through, because you can kind of indulge in almost like young adult, like plotlines and crushes and breakups and all this, all this stuff that you thought maybe you'd left behind. I mean, she is so much more similar to her 18-year-old son than she thinks. And they're both having this coming of age moment, really. And yes, it's way more fun to write about, because it was not fun to live it. The thing is, is I think when I started living it, there has been distance. And I kind of work this out the other day. With each of the shows I've written, there's been like approximately five to six years. Yeah, the process is. Yeah, it's that's just how, how, how it's sort of worked out. And I think that seems to be exactly the right way to talk to you, to turn tragedy into comedy. Yeah. You know, that's, that's the process. Which works well, because television takes a while to like, rate it and get it going. Yeah. So you wouldn't want to be like, this is kind of, this happened really quickly, but I started writing the, I, you know, the premise, like the vague premise and the characters before bad sisters. So, yeah, so I had that. But, you know, the actual, you know, honing in on what it is as a show and the, you know, the the precinct of it. Was the publishing world kind of in the early version? No, not at all, all of that. I knew I wanted her to have a job that she cared about. But, you know, it was over the development of it that I realized, no, it needs to be one of those big jobs that you don't, you're not really allowed to switch off from, you know. And being a publishing agent, I think it's good for like the emotional reality of the show because she's, she's always available. Like she always has to be answering or missing calls. Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and harried constantly and also parenting outside of her, you know, her own family. Yeah. Because as an agent, you want really our mother to a lot of very needy babies. And, you know, I kind of, I felt that was great, great for her, what, great for the character. But then also realizing it was such a colorful world, you know, to put on screen in and of itself, you know, I would have, I went to the Frankfurt Book Fair, you know, as research for episode three. And then I handed in a draft, like, you know, whenever a sort of a redraft about a week later. And I remember getting it sent back to me going, yeah, you seem to really enjoy hanging out. Because it was like 90% like everything I took in, I was just like, blah. Is that just you have to do a beef of research as well? Or was that something you were able to, you know, you know, what? This is so, well, weird to me, but I've never been type either. I know. All of my, you know, peers have. Yeah. My kids have. You know, everyone I know has been type either except for me. So that was just, luckily, our series director, not not the director who did that episode, but our series director is a huge, I'd be the part here. And so she was able to sort of, you know, fact check it. But, you know, so that was a bit of research and, and, and all that. But no, it was, Frankfurt was more, because I felt like I had to learn the book role. I mean, I know how to approximate a fun island. Sure. I've been to other fun islands. But also, you know, the characters going there as, you know, as a 50 something woman, it's a different, you know, the lives is kind of different. But Frankfurt was just, that was such an eye opener. I really enjoyed one of my favorite parts about this, this season was how it starts out and you think it's going to be largely about this woman and her son and her ex and maybe a new newer lover, ex-pat. So I guess an older, newer lover. And then it kind of becomes a little bit more of this found family workplace comedy. And I was curious whether or not, you mentioned like parents getting older, kids moving out. Do you find that at this period in your life, at least for, for Alex, but also for you, do you, do you find like what's a family has kind of changed a lot in, in the last couple of years as you, are they more, is it more your friends? Is it more your colleagues now than it is? For me. Yeah. No. Okay. My life is so small and it kind of sort of has to be because work, you know, work, you know, writing and making TV and film is such a huge part of my life. And so I'm constantly surrounded by my colleagues, so I kind of, I knew I knew I had to write about that environment. But I am such a, you know, like I clock off and I go home and I don't, you know, I think the thing that suffers when you are, you know, a work-oriented person and a family-oriented person is your friendship, it's, you know, it's terrible. And I'm lucky that I have good friends who kind of forgive me and I'm still one and I love you to be a back friend. But yeah, that sort of, what is work is very much work and then, you know, I just go home and watch the traitors of my daughter. I wanted to ask about Wondon as a character in the show, which is, you know, made, made various appearances throughout your TV work. But this version of it seems very familiar and very warm to me. And it is kind of like this love letter to it. Where do you stand when it comes to Wondon and how it's changed over the years and how did it, what kind of role did it play in this specific series? - I mean, huge. - Yeah. Because it was something that, you know, Amy and Casey really wanted to be part of the show, you know, that that that would be part of its identity. And also for me, because I've all, you know, the London, my characters have lived in over the years has sort of represented there, you know, where they, where they started and they're kind of growth, you know, like with pulling my character Donna, all the characters in that show lived in the worst place you could live in London. And I'm really sorry, Penn, but that's, you know, it looked kind of like one of those places that it sort of never sort of repaired itself after the war. You know, and there's a kebab shop and there's not much else going on. It's just sort of, you know, cheap rent and low level, you know, share the accommodation. And that was, you know, on purpose to sort of represent that and then, and then with catastrophe, it was very sort of East London, but a kind of prettier East London, you know, yeah, exactly. And, and that they had, you know, kind of represented where they were in their lives. And, and I think with, with you say, first of all, our director, our Dawn Shadforth, you know, who did the first blocker London runs through her veins, you know, and so it was really important for her to, to show a London that, I didn't feel that felt the opposite of what you'd seen previously, you know, in TV and film. So, so very, you know, just, just very real, no kind of recognizable kind of areas really, you know, as much as possible, finding that apartment block for, for Alex, you know, rather than having her having a sort of sitcom house where it's just like how the hell did she get this Georgian townhouse. Exactly. I mean, she's got a beautiful apartment. But, you know, the sort of, the, the look of it is kind of, you know, a bit sort of brutal, you know, and then the areas that we, you know, we had the opportunity to, to put on screen, we wanted it to sort of fit with, with where worry was as much as, you know, where Alex is. So it's just all very like, you know, kind of raw, kind of straight lines and a more kind of brutal, kind of, visage kind of thing. And, and, and yeah, just sort of back streets and. It's also just nice because that character of Alex is having this secondary out of lessons or like, you know, it works in publishing. And there's just my favorite thing about London is people are always out. People are always going out and like, you know, going to the pub or going to get cocktails or going to the theater or going to a movie. Yeah. It's just, that doesn't translate as well to LA or to rural Vermont, like for baby boom Vermont or whatever. Yeah. There's nothing to do. So you just like stay home a lot, you know, and you have a nice place and you look out the window and it's nice, but London keeps you kind of going and up in Adam. Well, a lot of those, those venues are really close to my home. And, and have that sort of like you said, that kind of vibrant, like they're alive, like they're breathing, you know, and it really a kind of fitted in with that idea of her getting this opportunity to sort of live again, you know, to start over and then being thwarted. But at the same time, yeah, it's sort of, I think there were kind of, we wanted it to feel sexy as well, you know, that's part of the people that like there should always be a show like this on like I've always historically just really liked a romantic comedy set in a city where people are just living their lives. Yeah. And they've become a little bit too rare for for in modern television. Yeah, I don't know why is that, do you think I have a pet theory about this? It's that comedy to get sold now seems to like it needs to have like a very high concept. Like they, without disparaging anything, it's like they only have one night to have sex, you know what I mean? And it's like, well, why don't they just meet each other in New York? We've been doing that for like 100 years, right? Like that works. I guess unless it's sort of known IP or, you know, like you said, has a high concept, you don't just get to be with characters. Yes, it's probably a harder sell. Yeah, it is a harder sell. I was curious about Alex as a central character, because I went back and I read this interview you had done around pulling with Dennis Kelly and you were sort of joking. You were like, the main character in pulling has no moral center, you know, and nor do I, and I think you were joking. But I think one of your gifts is that you can make likable people or likable characters do make mistakes. And we can watch them and we kind of go along on the mistake with that character, but that is a very delicate dance to try and pull off. Because likability is like always like this major thing you hear about in television as a note, like do you like this character from the studios or from the networks, but also for fans, like for people watching is just like, do I want to spend this much time with somebody who maybe I do or don't like, how do you who do that and also do it for yourself when you're going to be performing, like taking your ego out of it. And the characters can have can do things that you don't agree with or, you know, and be flawed and make mistakes and have humiliating nights and make bad choices and all that. But I do think they inherently you need to care about them. And I've watched shows myself where I've not locked into a character because I think you're too bad, you know, or you're, I really don't care what happens to you. Whereas I feel like you can get away with so much if there is like an underlying kind of vulnerability, I suppose, you know, where they make mistakes, but you know why, or they make mistakes and then they try and make up for it in some way. In episode eight, in the final episode of youth, I think Alex does some of the worst parenting and the best parenting she doesn't in the whole show and as long as you get to the best parenting bit. And as long as honestly, I think as long as you were everything comes from a truthful place and you're not pushing too hard to make a character be stupid or selfish. If it comes from a place of insecurity or feeling awkward in the moment, like stuff that people can actually relate to. I didn't really like think that I was fully conscious of it until it was too late for the character that I was like, oh my god, she's just like head over heels. And everything is falling by the wayside because of it because I think even in the show, like you can kind of feel in that seventh and especially eighth episode is like, oh, like her work is collapsing here. Like she's just got too many spinning plates. Yeah, you know, this person needs their award and this person's. Their daughter is writing their book for them and then she hates this guy that she's got to get him and they've got all this competition, but you're like watching it through the lens of like, oh, her and Pat are finally happy. It's great. I mean, nothing else really matters when you're content in your relationship or when you feel like your kid is thriving has turned that corner and just finally sort of feel like that. And have both of those things kind of worked apart whilst your career is. And having a UTI as the character has. Well, that is so important to me to be like, I can't tell you how important. Yeah, because it's a huge, you know, it's a big part of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was waiting to go on Drew Barrymore like a few weeks back and I was like suddenly hit by the worst UTI and not knowing how I was going to get through it. So but also like just from a practical point of view. you, it kind of gave the character room to just sort of be in that awful, like, toilet stall, just sort of, you know, yeah, whereas, you know, kind of got us out of that mad sort of awards, he kind of environment. And so even though it doesn't seem funny on the page and a lot of these things don't, you know, a lot of the time you have to ask, you know, your partner on making the show like to bear with you and, you know, trust that, you know, that'll be okay once it's up on its feet. And I think as well, you know, as an actor, sometimes I would write something and then I would turn up on set to do it. And I'd be like, oh, she's being the worst person here. Do I, do I want to, do I want to be that, do I want to be in that skin for the day? And I'm really, you just need good people on the team to sort of, you know, talk you through while you met, why you made that choice in the first place. And, and again, trust that the bigger picture allows you to behave that way. Yeah. And commit the other side, you know, and then I think like the very specific character relationships in this show like Alex and Sam have a friendship that almost predates and supersedes the professional relationship and also perhaps negatively impacts the professionalism of their relationship. So there's all, I want to my favorite running bits is how when you are, she will walk into the other's office and say something completely inappropriate has nothing to do with work, but it seems to happen like over, it's a very, very funny thing, but it's also very relatable. Like if you work with friends, sometimes it's hard to remember to work. And also that that blurred line where you forget that this person is paying your bills. And that they are carrying the responsibility of every stupid mistake you make. You know, I thought that was a really interesting ingredient to give to a friendship, you know, because I don't know. I often think that friendship, especially female friendship isn't shown in, you know, it's kind of sort of rose tinted, whereas like this dynamic of them working together, not just working together, but one being the boss, I think gave it that sort of workplace spark, you know, where they get to, I love that, you know, that sort of back and forth that, you know, is sometimes ribbing, but then goes too far or, you know, when you have to absolutely park the friendship and go, you know, you're not, you're not doing your job right? Did you enjoy writing the male characters on this series because it felt like you were catching different men in different stages of their life in a very like a student accurate way, I thought. Like it was maybe not the central preoccupation of the show, but I thought Pat and I thought Rory and even the father, like, all these different stages of their life and you're observing. Yeah, and Michael Olderman as well, you know, I think that the great thing about making this show was that, you know, there was so many people around me sort of encouraging me to sort of like take the theme of youth and apply it to all the characters, you know, so that each of them is sort of dealing with a similar kind of thing, realizing that the time they have on this earth is, you know, precious, but they're all at different stages of it, you know, so even with, you know, I mean, you know, Michael, losing his mother and realizing that time is now, it doesn't want to be like a good father yet. Yeah, and X part just sort of, you know, having this biological ticking clock and even though he's falling in love, he's sort of, he's having to process what that might mean and the absolutely lurking for the X, I mean, every decision he's making is a midlife crisis decision, you know, and how can I make this time count and worry, of course, you know, just he has his whole life in front of him, but it doesn't know what to do with it. It doesn't know what to do with it and it's so scared, you know, of the next step and yeah, it was amazing to have that, you know, encouragement, you know, to sort of to build that up and into the characters, because it just makes it, it just makes such a difference to the to the final thing, because everything is linked in a way, you know, everyone is sort of very much in the same show. Do you ever go back and watch pulling or go back and watch any of the, because I look at this stuff as part of a continuum of, you know, one big show that you've made over the course of your career. Yeah, I mean, that's as it's turned out what it is, but obviously, that was never, no, it's just like a, you know, producer, I worked with Mentionette, I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's up to you. There's like just buildings Roman, you've been building for like a long time. I know, I should just pretend that I'm a sort of Richard Link later, kind of, and it's, you know, it would be very cool to get like the box set, yeah, 20, 20 years of, you know, put myself on screen, but I don't go back and watch, you know, the thing is if you're on social media, people post clips all the time and I, I love it, like I, I have a huge, I'm fondness for those shows. I mean, particularly pulling because it was my first ever show. Yeah. And I think it was really bold, you know, and in fact, it was pulling that got me in my relationship with HBO, you know, Amy Gravert saw it, like, all those years ago and kind of hunted me out in London and, you know, was like, what can we do together? That's awesome. Yeah. But it's also, it's also, it was interesting for youth because I kind of realized, you know, bad sisters were such a huge thing, but such a completely different thing. And I had to sort of, you know, for, I don't know, pull pulling and catastrophe and to focus a bit in order to start making youth because I was like, no, with that, that's the kind of tone. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's own thing and it's, it feels kind of like a bigger world, a more ensemble kind of world and, you know, and with the workplace being so, you know, such a big part of it. But that, but tonally, it was just great to have those shows in the back of my head. Do you feel like writing has become easier for you over the years? Like, do you, do you think of it more as just like something you know, you can ultimately do or as like, maybe when you're younger, you're like, is this going to work? I also, I hate it, you know, what I love it. I mean, you still have the whole love hate saying all the way through, you know, it's, it's brutal how much you kind of waver between thinking you've got this and I'm thinking you've absolutely forgotten how to do it completely. Yeah, career up. Yeah. You know, every show I've ever done, I have a sort of exit plan, you know, to, to leave the business. But, um, elaborate to those plans. Well, I mean, they're usually like definitely leaving the country. No, no, not fake death in so much as like, backup careers, you know, and, and how to sort of, you know, how to exit in, in, in the most, um, quiet and, um, careful way. But I think, you know, I think it hasn't got easier, but I have more confidence, you know, it's still hard in that, you know, you're at like, it's painful, um, trying to get a series of anything off the ground, you know, it's, uh, it takes a huge amount of work and, but I definitely, and I should have by now, Jesus, like I'm 56, like I should, I've been doing this for a couple of decades. I should have built up a confidence, but it's, it's, uh, it's mad how long it took, you know, and I kind of felt it on bad sisters, but then I also had this incredible raw material to work with. So I was like, that felt, you know, it's an adaptation. Yeah, exactly. Whereas with the youth, I, I felt like, like a proper kind of confidence, you know, in, in my voice and, you know, you, you, you write things down on the page and a lot of people might read it and not see any comedy in it, but I know where the comedy is because I know, I know when it's up on its feet, you know, I know how it's going to be funny when I walk away like that. Trust me. Yeah. Right. Yeah. The guy's going to hit by on the break and I'm going to keep walking. Yeah. And also that thing, you, you have more confidence in your ability to know how to, you know, place a drama moment, sort of comedy moment. And I, I've kind of done that throughout my career, but I didn't always feel that confident in it. You know, you kind of, it's kind of like squeaky bum kind of will this work. Yeah. And the, and the other thing is trusting that you can talk about way to eat stuff that might not seem like comedy kind of father, you know, and sort of having the and confidence to sort of keep it in there and figure cross people relate to it and appreciate it within that comedic setting. - Yeah, and even if somebody, whoever doesn't get it, I think the person who gets it, it's offset. They're like, it almost makes up for that 'cause the people who will resonate with, I think it'll resonate quite deeply. I was also wondering, I really enjoyed in the research getting ready for this. It's like reading some older interviews from your early days about getting into the television business in England at the time. And the sort of development of talent that happened at that period where your writing sketches for sketch shows and maybe appearing on news, comedy programs and stuff and slowly building up and then working with Dennis Kelly and doing polling and then going on from there. And I love that you've adapted stuff, you've written stuff that you're not in, like Motherland, you've done all these different things but there's been this interesting transition that's happened where there isn't like, it's TV in England and TV in America and there's completely separate entities. They're kind of like, it's all just big TV now. And even to the point now where when I come across a show that's on in England and I'm like, so I can't watch that now, that's kind of surprising where is it used to be like, I had to like legally download Black Mirror. This isn't a question, it's just like, what do you make of how everything has changed over the time that you've spent in the business 'cause you've got such a unique perspective on it? - Yeah, and it is so different. You know, after I made Pulling, I came to the US, which was a thing people did then. - It was such a thing, people did, but you have to wait. You have to wait for your right moment, you know, and the right moment was apparently when the last season of Pulling Went out and like, now I'm ready, but I came over here to make American TV which seems wild now, it would not be like that. Initially, it wasn't even able to write stuff for myself 'cause I didn't have a profile here, so I was writing for bigger name, creating shows for bigger name actors to be in and then eventually got to do it myself. But it was, yeah, there was such a divide, you know, there was the odd thing that kind of broke through on both sides like the office, maybe, you know, the original office, but other than that, you know. - That was pretty niche, like you had to find the DVD. - Was it that you would have watched it on BBC Worldwide? - I think it would have been first, it would have been DVDs. Like there was like, the office UK was available and comedy nerds loved it of course, and then it became, oh, if you've seen the US version, you should watch this. - Yes, yeah. - But yeah, I remember watching that. I can't remember how I got it, but some DVD of it. I mean, it's just, it's so funny 'cause I was just watching the Oasis documentary that came out. - Oh, I haven't seen that yet. - And I was remembering back when, you know, when I was in college and they were first kind of coming out, there was still like this, like, when is Oasis gonna be ready for the States, you know? Did they have to put out like a certain kind of song and it turns out they were ready for the States, you know? But that was still like a thing, - It's funny, isn't it? Because then there's the other way around, where, you know, Blondie made it in English, London first, and again, and you know, that sort of new wave with the AAS and the Strokes and their CD scientists. And that was like London and then they came back. But, and, you know, obviously there's TV and sort of film versions of that. But it still felt like, it felt so alien, you know? The whole process, I could never really get my head around there. The idea of like the old school kind of pilot system. I did not understand how it was anything other than a game. You know, it didn't seem like real to me that everyone would just go, go and everyone would go after the same people, the same actress, the same director, - Yes, to make one episode. - To make one episode of something that they would spend millions on and that would never air. - But I did it multiple times, multiple times. - Do you have those old pilots at all? Like, do you have ever? - I have one of them. It was called bad management. I'm, it was actually that was the first one that I got to kind of star me. - Okay. - So it was myself and David Spade and I was hilarious. We had such a laugh. - Did you have to do American accent? - No, you didn't. - No, I was just, yeah, just me. But yeah, that is somewhere. That was gas and then, yeah, I made so many remakes of, you know, UK shows I'd made, like like pulling like dead boss. Again, like just these incredible casts, incredible actors and beautifully made, beautifully put together things that no one ever would've ever seen like a day. - We're good. - And this is pretty sort of the Netflix thing, so it never had that opportunity of like NBC didn't make it. So therefore, let's pivot. So they were just gone. Like they were just, you know, kind of over. - Is there anything to the idea that the styles of shows and maybe the sensibilities of shows kind of the distinctions between American and English TV disappear after a while? Like, do you find now it's like, I am making this for a sort of Western global audience. - Yeah, yeah, I suppose there is that. I mean, it used to be that the sensibility was so different that it affected the writing, you know. Like, and this is mainly, I think, down to, you know, network TV rather than what was happening on HBO or whatever. But, you know, you really couldn't show someone being bad at their job. (laughing) You know, you had to be, I made a, you know, pilot called Bob Marvin. I wasn't really alive, so I'll be about in five months. I had to wait and sort of do that in the UK, you know. Men weren't allowed to be emasculated in any way. - Sure. - You know, there was like certain things that you had to sort of check off before it could. - Just kind of like the old like, once upon a time in Hollywood, - Oh, yeah. - So I can't lose a fight. - But, you know, you had to have a, you know, like, and the ending had to be ending. You know, it had to be very race-tinted. And, but now it feels like, because you are thinking of a more kind of global audience, because so many things cross over, you know, just European shows, like all my agent. And, you know, it does feel like that'll, when the scandy kind of drama became a thing, it kind of, it feels like it's sort of blurred the lines, you know, and you can kind of, there is a lovely kind of creative freedom that comes with that. - Yeah, I think generally it's been a net positive for TV audiences. - Yeah. - I miss the days when I would watch something like spaced or, you know, early black mirror or even, like, saw broad church for the first time. - Yeah. - And I was like, oh, shit. Like, this is so different. This is, like, broad church was very dark compared to like, even the police procedures that we would have at the time. And I remember, it felt good because it was so distinct from the way that American TV kind of function at the time. So sometimes I miss it. But I think it's also cool that like, my cousin in London can watch this show, at the same time as me and Los Angeles. And we can all have the same conversation. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was, I think there was this thing that I used to feel anyway, was that that US TV was just kind of bigger and better. And that's where you wanted to be. If you really wanted to fulfill your ambitions, it had to be through. - It's good to know it would. - Sort of you had to get to Hollywood. Like you said, like shows like broad church and happy valley or, you know, or like shameless. Like doing something really sort of new and exciting. And, you know, of a level that, you know, completely sort of, can absolutely compete, you know, made making TV in the UK very exciting. - Just as of sitting down, I know that the, I haven't heard anything about a renewal for youth season two. But it very much feels like a show that could go on and that you've created like a whole world that-- - Oh, we just got the-- - Oh, fantastic actually. - Okay. - Good. - Yeah, just actually Casey just called me before I-- - Okay. - He's like, "You should tell a lot." - Yeah. - He's like, "What's a scoop?" Yeah. So, you know, I kind of-- - Congratulations. - Yeah. - Thank you. I approached the finale of most things in a way, you know, so that it can just sort of exist. And, you know, if it continues, it continues. But you want it to feel like a very satisfying. And so I cut, that's what I did with you. So I was kind of like, you know, if it happens, it happens. But I did always see it as continuing. - Yeah, that would have been a gutsy way to end this show. I think a lot of people who were Pat fans would probably-- but it was a beautiful moment and the season on with her-- - With Gory, yeah. - Yeah, getting book ending, getting into that. - Yeah. - Her needing him. - Well, I love the show. Thank you so much for coming by today. And it was really great to talk to you. - Nice to talk to you, dear. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)