It's All Hard - Sudden vs Anticipated Loss

[Music] Hey listeners it's Jana, welcome back to Grief Out Loud. Today's guest is Amy Craig. Some of you longtime listeners may recognize Amy's voice from Who Died, a podcast we previously hosted here on Grief Out Loud. Amy's also been part of Duggy Center's community for many years as a volunteer supporting children, teens and families who are grieving. In this conversation, Amy shares about grieving for both of her parents who died in very different ways at very different stages of her own life. Her dad died suddenly when she was 23, right as she was stepping into adult life. Her mom died nearly two decades later after living with cancer for many years, including five years with a terminal diagnosis. Together we talk about a question that comes up often in grief. Is it harder when someone dies suddenly or when you know the death is coming? As you'll hear, there's no easy answer, both are hard. A sudden death can bring shock and disorientation, while an anticipated death can bring the responsibilities of caregiving, uncertainty, difficult conversations, or the painful absence of them. Amy also talks about how her relationship with grief has changed over time, from feeling terrified and overwhelmed by it in her early 20s to developing a more familiar, though no less painful, relationship with it now as an adult, a parent, and a grief support volunteer. One thing that came up in our conversation is something that comes up often for people who are grieving. It's, how do you answer the question? How did they die? With Amy's mom, it's more straightforward. She had cancer for many years and died from her illness. With Amy's dad, it's more complicated to explain. We talked off camera about how to best describe what happened, in a way that doesn't conceal the truth, but also doesn't paint her dad in a light that feels too simple or inaccurate. It's a dilemma that many people face, and it's also why asking what happened can be so tough on those who are grieving. Amy and I settled on saying that her father was using pain medication, both for an injury and recreationally, and that he died in his sleep wearing a fentanyl patch. One of my favorite moments in this conversation comes when Amy says, "Greef requires a lot of witnessing to not consume you." And we spend some time talking about what does it really mean to witness someone in their grief? By not trying to fix it, brush it, or make it easier, but staying present with the reality of what's hard. So no matter what kind of death you're grieving or supporting someone through, I hope this episode offers validation and language for experiences that can feel really difficult to name. One other note about the sound listeners, something when I righ with my microphone during our conversation, so my audio is going to sound a little bit different than usual, because it's from my backup microphone. Okay, here's our conversation. Amy, thanks for coming on grief out loud. Thanks for having me. We've known each other a few years now. A few years, yes. So tell us about your parents. What was your relationship like with each of them? Yeah, I was like prepared for this question, but I didn't prepare this question. [laughs] Yeah, what was my relationship like with each of them? It was different. My parents separated when I was three or four, and as my dad's only child, so I was with my dad every weekend, and then every other weekend, as I got a little bit older, and we had a very close relationship. Like when we were together, it was us, and I'm a lot of quality time together. My dad had a full time job with the city, but he had an antique store that we lived above. So I'd spend time with him in the antique store, and then we would spend a lot of time together in the mall walking around. [laughs] And my dad was like a curious person. He really wanted to know about my experiences, and like, we were friends, like very loving, sweet dad, who also didn't have to be a full-time parent, so I think easier for him to lean into that role. And then with my mom, she remarried when I was five, and my stepdad had two kiddos, and then they had a kid together, my half-sister, who's eight years younger than me, or like different kid dynamics there. I was not an only child, and my mom was working full-time and going to school when I was young, so she just wasn't around a whole lot. She was busy, and so our relationship was more like the practical functional as a kiddo. And I think that shifted a bit as I got older, but my mom has always been the one who like shows up in feeding people, as she became a grandma, which was her greatest joy. She showed up in like attending all the school events, and buying the kids' backpacks and shoes, and that sort of thing. Well, I was then listening to you describe the relationship you had with your parents, and also does that kind of who they were in the world to you, at least. I can see both sides of you, the part of you that is so exquisitely attuned to other people's experiences, and curious and wanting to like know people and ask the really like meaningful questions. And then the part of you that is very busy and loves to host and bring people together. All those things. I'm like, oh, I can better see that now. Yeah, it's true. They're very different from each other. And I often felt like I was code switching, growing up between the two homes, and I do carry a lot of both of those pieces. But I hadn't really thought about the idea that you were an only child in one home, and then a child with half sibling and steps siblings in another home. This is kind of a strange question, but two of us sounds like innately, which of those settings is the most comfortable or conducive to you being you? I mean, I have a guess, but I'm curious from your perspective. Oh, now I'm curious about your guess. No, I mean, I think. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I know how to answer that. But I feel very Gemini in the way of like, I can play in both spaces, and there is something that I probably appreciated and still appreciate about not having just a single experience that I sort of got to learn and be engaged in a variety of experiences. That seems like a perfect Amy answer to me. Big. My guess was going to be that you would really thrive in that more only child environment if only because I've seen you over the years cultivate really quality, multi-generational relationships. And so I could see you thriving in an environment with a lot of adults who have maybe time and space and attention for you. That is true. That is true. And there's like a. It's an interesting thing to be in a space where most of my relationships were adults. I didn't like have kids friends at my dad's house. It is a way of being that I thrived in and also probably shaped how I am now. It's a classic chicken egg situation. You know, like where we are in our lives plays such a role in how we experience our grief. And I wondered if you could share a little bit about like where you were in your life when your dad died and then where you were in your life when your mom died. Yeah. In very different places. When my dad died, I was 23 and I had graduated from college, had gotten engaged. I was planning to go to graduate school in Chicago. There was a lot of like, you know, beginning of adult life things when my dad died. And you know, at that age did not have friends whose parents had died or not many. There were a couple people in my life, but not people who talked a lot about their grief. And when my mom died this last September, I was 41 and have two kiddos, you know, an established adult life. Although I'm like, things could change at any moment, but I'm more established. And then I was so, yeah, I mean, especially having children's big difference and where I was in my life. my life and you know I had also been a volunteer at the Duggy Center for a decade when my mom died had a different relationship to grief than when I was 23. How would you describe that relationship to grief back when you were 23? I think I was terrified of it I think um yeah I think I can like easily tap into that sense of just like my dad my dad's death was also unexpected and said in which I think adds to it as well. I didn't know how to sort of let the grief in without feeling like it was gonna overwhelm me. I was highly functional and sort of doing all the things outwardly people probably didn't have a sense of what was going on underneath. I wasn't talking about my grief a lot and then I would just have these like nights of feeling like I would never stop crying because it was like it would just sort of come out in a way that I wasn't I wasn't making space for it so it would just come when it came and it would feel super overwhelming and like I don't know how I'm gonna move out of this place. Yeah and like I said didn't have a lot of people in my life who were asking about my grief or talking about grief being my dad's only child there weren't people who were sort of grieving next to me in the same way and my parents had been separated for a long time and did not have a good relationship so I'm I'm sure there was some grief that my mom was experiencing maybe in watching me grieve but it wasn't a thing that she talked about or participated in with me and so then when my mom died I think like my I had a you know friendly with relationship with grief and that like this is a thing that is part of my life and is representative of the love and care I have for people and is a normal thing and that it is easier to sort of experience it on a daily hourly basis as it comes through and not sort of bottle it up and be overwhelmed by it like I was when my dad died also a very different death I mean I had a lot of preparation my mom was sick had cancer in various forms for a long time had a terminal diagnosis for five years it was just a different kind of preparation yeah so when you were 23 you were definitely employing the shove it and shove it method that many folks do of like this is terrifying and I'm just gonna pack it away and then sometimes it would break through the wall and take you down and then have to put it back up and like shove it back again but with your mom it's more of like this is just part of the atmosphere I'm not quite as scared of it yet yes you've mentioned a couple times like the different types of death with your dad dying really suddenly and your mom having dealt with cancer for many many years and you know for years in our groups and I'm sure you've heard people do this and the groups you facilitated to really debating like what's easier what's harder the side of the unexpected the long term we can we know it's coming we don't know exactly when and usually people are like oh these are both awful and there's really no one that's better or worse there's just different things that are hard about them what's been the same or different for you yeah um they both suck both awful um yeah I mean it's so complicated because I think there's so much context around who the person was and their own relationship to grief and death I think I had this idea of knowing my mom was gonna die sort of wanting to do things in a certain way having more space to talk to her about her death but that sort of requires that she wanted to do that too you know there's maybe an idealized version of what it looks like to have a death that you know is coming and be able to prepare for that in the way you want to prepare for that but I think the reality can be more complicated it's not just you in the mix of what you want with with your dad having such a sudden and unexpected death and then with your mom's death how do you notice a difference in how like physically you're responding? I think my dad's death was certainly like a shock to my nervous system and I think there was a lot of like the processing of that afterwards in my body was pretty intensive you know having nightmares and sort of feeling like I think I had more of a felt sense of like this can't be real of like my body didn't adjust to that reality and I think like being present and watching my mom die there was a lot of like grieving in that experience I mean when she first got the terminal diagnosis there was a lot of grieving that happened didn't that I don't know six months to a year of like a lot of crying a lot of being overwhelmed by the reality that she was going to die at some point sooner than anyone would want there's there have still been moments of being like this can't be real but not the same sort of felt sense in my body was like I knew that was coming I watched it happen over time there was also like a some relief in her dying because the death process was pretty drawn out and not very fun I think for anyone and so also yeah just processing that and being like I I want her to go in this body I felt different in my body in processing it well it's like the contrast between the the shock of such a sudden death especially with like no experience really with grief prior to your dad's death and then I think too about the the toll of the actual physical caregiving that not everyone does when someone has an illness but many people do and I know that you did and that that can feel different in the body too yeah very much so you alluded to this a little bit but do you have an awareness of how your dad dying when you were 23 shaped the way you showed up for your mom after she was diagnosed with cancer but even maybe prior to that or how you show up for other people in your life yeah I think I had a huge impact on on all of it I mean when my dad died and then my mom's first like she had cancer previous to my dad dying but the year after my dad died she was diagnosed with stage 4 rectal cancer and so that moment the year after my dad died I was like I might lose both my parents you know when I was 24 then or 25 in that age range and so it really pushed up my timeline around having kids because I mean my mom had always really wanted to be a grandma and I was sort of in a space of like I want to have my parents be grandparents I don't have that opportunity with my dad anymore and I really want that with my mom so that was a big reason why I decided to have kids when I did and you know having one kid and then I was like we're gonna have another one not so many years later um so that had a big impact on my life and my relationship with my mom and then moving to Tacoma from Portland was also around her health and wanting to be close to her as she was going through treatments and wanting to make sure that my kids had time with her while she felt well so that whole decision to move was around her health and knowing she would die and I know was informed by the experience of losing my dad and I think you know wanting to be as present as possible with her and working on having a relationship with her that felt as good as it could to me was important and informed by my dad's death of like this is my chance I don't know how long I have with her when you mentioned earlier too that that we can come in with all the intention to have the conversations we'll just spend a lot of time with someone or connect with someone or try to deepen our relationship and then in the more end of life. life, maybe perhaps splitting closer to death process of wanting to have those conversations. I think the people who have had some undi suddenly, like long to be able to have, like, "Oh, you got to say goodbye. You got to have those last conversations." You mentioned it's a two-person situation. It's not just me coming in wanting to ask these questions, like the other person has to be in a place and being willing to engage with that. What was that like for you to be wanting maybe to have some of those conversations and maybe not being able to? It was very challenging to want those conversations and not be able to have them. I mean, I can give both of us, all of us grace in that process to very sort of like an idealized version that I mentioned. I did want to sort of push in to asking more questions and to understand what she wanted at the end of life. I also didn't want to push in a way that caused discomfort or that she didn't want to engage with. I think it's like, "I'm not the person who's dying. I can't really understand what that experience is like." I wanted her to be like open about what she was wanting and sort of acknowledging the reality of what was happening and recognizing that at some point she's not going to be able to make decisions about what she wants. But I think she just didn't really want to go there. It was challenging for a lot of reasons, especially in the sort of end of life caregiving, which I had no idea how sort of on your own you can be in that process. I had this idea of like hospice was going to come in and take care of all the things. And there would be like a nurse there who would do the meds and whatnot, but really all of that relied on us. In our case, I'm sure other people have different experiences, but I did have a lot of compassion for her in that experience of not wanting to do what I wanted to do. And it was challenging and I was sad about it. And I was resentful in the end about needing to make decisions that she didn't want to make. This might be an impossible question to answer, but like from this vantage point, which question do you most wish, or mom, had answered or given you information about like what would have alleviated some of that painful part at the end of life? Hmm. Hmm. I'll take you have that. It's a tricky one. I mean, I mean, she, we talked about death with dignity at the end and she was overwhelmed by the paperwork of it and had said that she had friends who she felt like would support her, would give her the morphine she needed to sort of be done and that she didn't want me to do that because she didn't want that to be on my shoulders. But then had none of those conversations with friends. And so in the end, I was in a position of like, well, I'm not going to ask her friends to do that. Because I, she's not here. I mean, it just felt like impossible. And the other members of my family also did not want that responsibility of how much much we were giving her and when and so it did blame on me to do that. I mean, I took on that responsibility. And so like, I don't know what the question to her would have been like, do you understand that somebody is going to have to make this decision at the end? And could we make that decision together in advance in a way that is clear? So that is an example of what I would have wanted to ask her. In it, it's the sense of you are her child and wanting some button to step in and make the adult decisions or do the adult things, even though you are an adult. Yes. You know, I just think about that sometimes, you know, no matter how old we get, sometimes looking around and being like, isn't there someone above me who's going to do this or make this decision? And can you guys figure that out and get back to me? Right. Well, and having her said, having her say that she didn't want me to have to make that decision. Okay. But here I am. I mean another adult. Yes. Someone else has to be here. Yeah. You know, grief changes so much over time as we change over time too. And do you recall, like, right after your dad died, those first, let me have the first year after his death, like what felt the hardest versus what feels the hardest about his death now? About his death specifically. I mean, I think I was in the sort of stuff it down mode the first year after his death but really the second year felt the hardest and or harder than the first year. And I think it was just like this overwhelming, like really I have to do this. All of the things, like I made it through birthdays and all of those things once and just sort of the reality of having to do it over and over. All really overwhelming. And I think now there's like, it's been a significant number of years since he's been gone and I can still have that since sometimes but it was also like part of my reality is that like my connection to him and like my celebration of him is after his death. I mean, like my, the way I talk to my kids about him, the way we celebrate his birthdays, all of those things are sort of become normal. So that has shifted over time. It's to can still feel hard but it is like I have a way of relating to him and him being in my life where he is not physically present. Yeah, there's not really other, I mean there's other things that happen in our lives that we have to have the rest of our lives but I think of you know, especially when you're younger it's like I just got to get through this exam, I just got to get through this program, I just got to get through this and once I get through that it'll be over but with grief it's like, oh I got through that and guess what? I get to do it again next year. Yeah, exactly. But are some of the ways that you and your kids celebrate your dad's birthday? Well, my dad really loved sweets and so we do Sundays on his birthday every year and I don't even know if that he did this more than once but there was at least one time where he put pop tarts in his Sunday, it was like pop tarts and like an extreme level by the ice cream and pop tarts and whatever else and so we usually sort of go all out for his birthday and it feels a little bit like a reductive of my dad's life that the thing the kids hold onto most is that we've like eat Sundays and they will, my kids will sort of recognize if we're like having a big dessert or something they will say like, "Grandpa Steve, what of like this?" which I love that that's a connection to him and also it's a limited way of understanding who he was but yeah so we usually have Sunday parties and we'll blow out candles and sing happy birthday to him. Do you know what's only been like nine months, not even since your mom died? Are there things you're noticing about your grief shifting at all? I mean not in a linear way, necessarily but I think I was also in when she died September 11th and it was the very beginning of the school year which is kind of a wild time already so there were just a lot of things that had to happen of like kiddos getting into a routine in school and starting new sports and all of that and I also had a busy work time and so I felt like there was a bit of a like relief that we got through the active dying part because I was there all the time while the beginning of the school year was happening. we got sort of through that and I guess got through some big work things. There was a just like, I was crying all the time at all the things because I think I just like had more space for that. And it's kind of gone in waves since that. There are times where it's like, okay, this is part of my new norm in their moments when I'm sad and it comes and goes in there are times where I am completely overwhelmed. Is there something in the last like, I don't know, a couple of weeks or months where you really like, I miss my mom right now, like this particular circumstance or this, whatever it is. It's like, yeah, I had a colonoscopy. Which is the whole thing. I mean, my mom wasn't GI nurse practitioner. And that was like her realm. So there's a level of that that like, my mom was my healthcare person. So I would ask her questions about all the things and she would have opinions on what I was doing or who I needed to see or that sort of thing. So there have been like any medical moment. And I also feel like there is like my mom's care in that way was a big way in how she showed up as a mom of like, making sure I was physically okay. And that is a hard thing to replace. Like I don't have other people in my life who are worried about my physical body at the same level that my mother was. So that's a big piece. And then like the colonoscopy was at her former place of work with all of her former colleagues. And I have a different last name. Most people don't know me. And so I made a decision that I wasn't going to be talking about her in that moment because the colonoscopy is like, you know, you're in a vulnerable position. That's it. Yeah. But it was challenging. I felt like I really missed an opportunity to talk about my mom with people who really loved my mom. Like they are dedicating a suite in that building in her name. And everyone there would have known her. But I felt like I just couldn't do it in that moment. Have you thought about returning not while having a colonoscopy to talk with people about your mom in that environment? Yeah, they are planning a celebration to dedicate the new suite in her name. So there will be an opportunity to be there. And then the people I saw who didn't know me will like recognize me. The big reveal. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I was like, they were putting me under. And the doctor was like, so who in your family had cancer, the colon cancer? And I was like, my mom. And he was like, oh, did she have it before she was 60. And he was like, in that moment, I was like, you know my mom and you know how old she was. But I was like literally falling like being put under. We know each other because you've been a volunteer at Ducky Center for a really long time. What has knowing more about how other people grieve by listening to their stories? Has that changed how you think about or experience your own grief? Yeah, very much so. I keep thinking about this line that someone in group said, not that long ago, but it's reflective of my whole experience that grief requires a lot of witnessing to not consume you. And I think that's the biggest thing I've learned from, you know, a decade of volunteering is just that like being witnessed in your grief is such a gift. And in my mind is the thing that can support you in integrating that into your experience, like to not have shame around it, feel like you can share your story, feel like it can be hard 10 years later, 15 years later that there isn't a time limit on your grief. All of that has shaped my experience, how I show up for other people in grief and my experience now and grieving my mom. I feel like witnessing is one of those terms that feels like when we say like be present and they're all super helpful and then I also like what was that actually mean? Like was that look like? And I wondered if there are some tangible clues for you specifically. We were like, oh, that's what's happening right now. I'm like, I'm being witnessed. This feels helpful. Yeah, I think it is a like that I can share about my experience and be heard in it. So that's like, you know, somebody actively listening, like asking follow-up questions, not being afraid to sort of be in the content of it with me, I think is part of witnessing and what I see in groups is like there's not a there's not a tip to going around of, oh, you can say this but then you need to stop because you're making people uncomfortable that there's I think being witnessed in it is like space for all the feelings, even the ones that might make people uncomfortable and being seen and they're like, yeah, this is real hard and it's going to continue to be hard and it might be hard in different ways over time and there's not a trying to make it better. I think it's part of being witnessed in it. I'm appreciating what you just said about not being afraid of the content because I think a lot of what we teach folks around how to show up for people who are grieving is to really focus on the process. So there's like the content of what someone's saying and then there's the process of how we respond to that content or how we make space for more content to come forward. I had no way thought about like how critical it is to demonstrate not necessarily comfort but not a fear or discomfort with the content that someone is sharing and then also to respond in ways that don't create obstacles in the process of sharing the content and like that's like the magic combination there. Yeah totally. I mean there is a lot about death and dying that is not often spoken about in, you know, polite company but it's like people need space for that kind of content to come out and then like you're saying that there is an invitation to share what feels relevant to share. We gave other things that are helpful or maybe not helpful. What are the things that have been helpful to you and I'm wondering like were there things that were helpful for you after your dad died compared to what feels helpful now since your mom has died and if they're the same or maybe they're very different. Yeah I think after my dad died I felt pretty alone in the experience and so some of the things that were helpful when I would feel like really overwhelmed as I would watch whole movies of him and just like cry until I couldn't cry anymore. It was like I created a pentaneer for myself to just move through overwhelming feelings and I can't remember how long it was after my dad. Well it was probably like five or six years after my dad died that I started volunteering at the Duggy Center but that became a space to not that I was processing my own grief in groups but just being around other people talking openly about grief gave me a more permission I think to do that in my life with friends and other people if more normalizing it. Since my mom died I mean over that time I have cultivated relationships with people who are more comfortable with grief and willing to witness and be part of my processing so I think having people who you know will check in with me and ask how is your grief how is Mother's Day really be curious about my experience has been really helpful. Speaking of Mother's Day we just had Mother's Day it's May still good old Father's Day is right around the corner after that so what was the experience of your first Mother's Day with a caveat to that and then also how has your experience with Father's Day been and my caveat to Mother's Day is I wondered if you noticed any influence on Mother's Day in the years after your moms, terminal diagnosis. Did that shift how you approached or felt about Mother's Day? So three-part question there. Yeah. Right, I want to start. This Mother's Day was challenging. I think probably more than I anticipated. I think being a mother and also celebrating a mother, it's just sort of a-- I don't know. It doesn't feel like I understand how to do all of that, especially grieving. And they had just placed the grave stone the week before Mother's Day. My mom was cremated. So she is not at the cemetery, but they had purchased cemetery plots. And so my step-dad decided to do a headstone. And so that just got placed the week before. And I decided to go out there on Mother's Day, which felt like an interesting decision. She's not there, but it feels like a way to mark the occasion or something. And I have a glass ball that has some of her ashes in it. So I took her with me to the headstone. And I had never been at a cemetery on Mother's Day before. And there were parties going on. There were big families gathered with food and things. There were a lot of people hanging out in the cemetery on Mother's Day, which I was glad to see. And also it was like, this is sad. A lot of people missing their moms or their motherly figures on Mother's Day. So that was this year's experience, I think. I think after my dad's death or my dad dying really shaped my relationship with my mom and how I showed up with her. And after her terminal diagnosis, there was a lot of wanting to be as present as possible and to celebrate her when we could. And it's also hard to sort of like hold that reality for so many years. So I would say we did we, meaning me and my half sister, my mom's other kiddo, did a lot to sort of like show up and be present with her on holidays like that. And I want it, like wanting everything to be special is a really hard place to be in. So it was a dance. And Father's Day has always been, I was born on Father's Day. Like my birthday and Father's Day have always been closely related. And my dad and I would like go shopping for Father's Day and Birthday gifts together at the mall where we spend a lot of time. And my younger kiddo was also born on Father's Day. And he has a dad to celebrate. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dynamics around Father's Day. - Do you remember the first Father's Day after your dad died? - I don't, I mean, the first Father's Day after my dad died would have been like a month and a half before I was getting married and moving to Chicago. So there was, there was a lot happening in that time. And I don't remember a particular like what I did on that day. I probably had like a normal birthday gathering 'cause that was the kind of space I was in. - Are there other days throughout the year that stand out as particularly charged when it comes to grief for you? - I think I'm noticing that with my mom's death in a different way. And I think it's around my kids because she really loved being a grandma so much and loved showing up for them and making things special for them. My older kiddo had a birthday in April and that was really hard. And we're coming up to the end of the school year and both of my kiddos have like celebrations. One of them is leaving elementary school and starting middle school. The other one is leaving middle school and starting high school. So they're both having these like ceremonies with baby pictures and like all of these things to celebrate the transition. My mom would love that, you know, like she would be excited to be there and to celebrate those kind of milestones. So missing her around those days. - And sitting in the place of missing both that she's not there, you missing out on her, not being there, your kid's missing out on her not being there and then all the things that she's missing out on that she loved so much. - Yep, yep. - So it's kind of traditional right to ask folks sometimes at the end of a podcast interview of what words of advice or hope do you have for other people? And said I'm gonna ask what hopes do you have for yourself around this grief? - That's an interesting question. I think there's like a piece of me that's like, my hope is to not have it be hard. I know about grief, I'm comfortable with it, so it'll just be fine. But I don't think that that is true. So my hope is that I continue to give myself grace around the experience and I don't know often what's gonna be hard and not hard until I'm in it and I think that's pretty normal. So I think my hope is that I like give myself space to feel what I'm feeling and that I continue to reach out to the people in my life who can be a witness to that experience and that I can do that in front of my kiddos too, that they know that that's okay. To feel the feelings as they come up. - It's endlessly entertaining to me that those of us who maybe work in the field or volunteer work in the field and have that. I get, I know grief and all experiences are welcome and it's okay for it to be hard and that's like, wait, but doesn't that mean I get a pass on it being hard for me? I'm like expecting it all and I'm gonna feel it and make space for it and like, oh wait, it still sucks to actually experience it. Yeah, it's still real shitty. Yeah, and I don't know, there's been a number of experiences, work experiences and relationship experiences where it takes me a minute but I realize afterwards that it's like the grief at play and like that's dumb. (laughing) I want to be able to know that it can happen but not have to experience the impacts of it happening. - Well, at least not like in a reflective way. There's something for me at least of like, this is a grief day and it's going to be hard and I'm like, okay, I'm prepared versus the like, why was that so challenging and then looking back me like, oh, duh, that was grief. It's like, I always think to myself, I can't tell which one's the actual accurate word for it like the surprise versus the being caught off guard and I think I still get caught off guard but I'm never surprised. - Yeah. - Like I'm like, oh yeah, duh, that makes sense now, but I still got caught off guard by a, right? - Yeah, that feels accurate. (laughing) - Well, Amy, any last thing or things you feel like you want to say about your mom, about your dad, about grief, when after my dad died, we were at his, like prepping his service. He was Jewish and so we were at a Jewish funeral home and a rabbi came and met with us and he was talking about, I was crying at the table with the family and he said, when the heart is full of the eyes overflow, I think about that a lot when I'm crying or other people are crying and it doesn't necessarily have to be sadness but it's just like when the heart is so full, comes out your eyeballs and like that's a beautiful thing too to like have a full heart in all the ways. So try to hold onto that. - Now every time I cry or see someone else cry, I'm gonna picture heart shaped tears coming out. - It's like, oh there's enough space in the heart anymore. We gotta let it out a little bit. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Well Amy thank you for coming on and I know some people would think, oh my gosh, you're all right. be having a podcast conversation, but you were game for it. So thank you for being in it with me and with our listeners today. I learned more about your mom and about your dad and about you and that's always so meaningful. Yeah, well, I appreciate the space and I have appreciated hearing other people's stories over the years and it matters. So thank you for that. When listeners out there, you know I say this each and every single time, but thank you for being part of the show for passing along episodes to people who might be helped or interested in some way with what we're talking about here. If you want to connect with me directly, you can email me at [email protected]. That's DOUGY.org. That's also our main website and if you've had there, you'll find information about our local programming, all of our free downloadable resources, how to sign up for some of our trainings like our webinars and our online learning classes, as well as each and every episode of griefout loud. I'm always excited to share that the podcast is sponsored in part by the Chester, Stefan, and Down at Fund. Griefout loud is the production of Deggy Center, the National Grief Center for Children and Families in Portland, Oregon. Thanks again for listening. We hope you'll join us again next time. [Music]