It is ok to not be ok

Hi, I'm Rom and you're listening to Raising the Glass, the podcast that delivers a long serving of honesty with a dash of humour as we aim to create connections to drive inclusivity for women and allies in the drinks industry. Today we're chatting with Kim Wilson about following your dreams, not sweating the small stuff, and that it is okay to not be okay. Kim is the founder and managing director of North Southwines, and a self-proclaimed oversharer, so I promise this episode should be a good one. Keep listening to learn that your imposter syndrome is actually your improver syndrome, and remember to subscribe to the show if you enjoy the content. Time to grab a glass, settle in and join us as we raise a toast to authenticity, resilience and empowerment by raising the glass. So without further ado, let's raise our glasses and introduce our guests for this episode, Kim Wilson. Kim has worked in the drinks industry for over 20 years in commercial roles across Karlsburg and Irman's before setting up her own business, North Southwines, over 10 years ago. Kim, I am really looking forward to the conversation today, so welcome. Thank you. Just as I thank you so much for having me and for inviting me on this group. When we first met as a group together on teams, I sat there with like fear in my eyes and complete imposter syndrome. There's women in this group that I aspire to be and to be like, so I'm loving the fact that I've been invited, so thank you. I think we'll probably come back and unpick some of that, and definitely the imposter syndrome, but I would also echo, it's a pretty amazing group to be part of. However, before we get into unpicking all of that and much, much more, we'd like to get to know you a little bit better. So help us by telling us what one drink evokes one of your strongest memories. Okay, so I actually, I'm going to be a bit greedy because I have two. Okay, if that's okay, this always happens with me. So my very first one is advocate. Can you remember snowball? At Christmas? Always have a snow bomb. So that gives me really fond memories of being a child. So I have an identical twin sister. And when our land would come, she would come and always on Christmas Eve, we would decorate the tree and then we would be allowed a snow bomb. And we would have it in the little baby sham glasses that you used to get. So that is one of my first memories, definitely. And my second memory, I can't get away without saying this is a wine brand called Aniston Bay because that is the brand that got me into the wine industry. And there was a lovely, lovely gentleman there called Jeremy Borg that was managing the Aniston Bay team in the UK when I first joined and it was my very first job within the wine trade. And I worked for him for about six months and then he decided that he wanted to come out of the kind of corporate world. And he set up his own business, he said his own family vineyards, which were called Borg Family Vineyards. And he went back to South Africa and he set up a brand called painted wolf, which is an amazing wine brand and the funds that he raised from that goes back to the conservation of the African wild dogs, of the painted dog and that's what his wines are called. But he now is in my portfolio and I represent his wine. So all that kind of full circle of the one person that got me into the wine trade with that one brand, he's now back in my business and we represent him as a wine brand. And he's a true, true legend and an amazing friend of mine. I love that whenever we ask this question, people have memories. I think probably a lot of people will relate with snowballs. And I think it is often that what comes out time and time again is around those connections that drinks can create. And you talk about how you've gone full circle. But you have been in the drinks industry for 20 years or so. And what was the spark that first got you into the industry? Again, when I came into the industry, if I'd come in for the reason that I came in for, I wouldn't be sat here right now because I would be a geography teacher. So I came into the drinks trade through a company called Unique Pub Company, which was a pub business, is now what you've got taken over by enterprise ins, who are EI wines now. And I came in for tele sales, is what I came in for. And the head office was 20 minutes away from where I lived. And I was going to literally work there for a year to earn money to go to university. And anyway, as soon as I got into it, I just loved everything with it. And these reps, I hate the word rep, but reps would come in. And I'd be there, be selling us Coca-Cola, Red Bull, whatever it was. And I'd be like, "Oh, I could do that." That sounds like a really cool job. So I just sit there and think, "How am I going to get myself into this?" I don't want to be a geography teacher anymore. I just want to. And you get used to earning money as well. That's the others it. You come out and you get used to earning money. So to be like 19 and be earning a decent wage and have a cool car and all of that type of stuff. So for me, I spent about a year trying to get a job, went for various different interviews, lots and lots of different interviews. But I didn't have a university degree. And so I actually got a job, first of all, with Bournemas, before they were bought out, but with Bournemas where I was selling side kicks. I don't know whether anybody ever remembers those, but they were little shots that used to go on the side of a pint glass. And it was in the days when you were encouraged to like sell them, but also drink one at the same time. There's a lot of things that just wouldn't happen these days. Wow. It's moved on. It's definitely moved on. There was a lot of things that I would not tell my dad that I was doing later at night as he'd like walking around Leeds City Centre in the middle of the night on my own. And everything counts. Well, he's going to hear that now because he's heard this. But yeah, so I did that. And then our team got made redundant. So I remember getting made redundant and then having really, really bad flu. And somebody, a recruitment agency said to me, "Oh, there's a job going at Carlsburg." And I was like, "Oh, I don't really know whether I want to work in beer or not. I'm not sure." Anyway, it was like the job interview's on Friday. I think this was like Wednesday. The job interview's on Friday. Just go and have an interview. So I went with really bad flu. And I was like, "I think because I was so ill, I was just kind of like, 'Oh, just like whatever happens.' Anyway, it did really well in the interview because I think I was really laid back and just feeling awful. So the nerves couldn't kick in or anything. And I met who became my boss, a guy called Bernard Gisbury, and they had a programme running from the Monday, like an induction scheme. So I basically got offered the job pretty much there and then. And I started on the Monday because I was available. And they said to me, "So you're going to work in the off-trade team?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, that's cool. I can work in the off-trade team." And then I was like, "What's off-trade? I don't ever work in the on-trade." I thought, "What's off-trade? What's cash in Carls? What's best way?" And then anyway, I got the most amazing training. And I was a territory manager and they were split by three teams. So there was a lot of camaraderie between the teams, a lot of competitiveness, and just amazing training that you get, like first class. And I owe a lot of what I've got today because of that great foundation that I had. And I can't speak more highly of the training and what I learnt there. So if you think about your younger self, for your dad's benefit, let's pretend it was very much 95 and you were safe at all times. You were thinking about that younger Kim. What do you wish you'd know and then that you know now about your current job, business industry? I think the biggest thing for me, and I think you learn it with time. And I would say, I've definitely developed a lot in the last five years so much more than what the previous ten years was. But for me, it's like, don't sweat the small stuff. He spends so much time just worrying about the small stuff and also worrying what people think. And I think the really big thing is, is you've got to trust your gut. And I've learnt that the hard way, definitely. But also, surround yourself with amazing people. Somebody very wise once told me, if you want to do well in a job, surround yourself with better people than yourself. And I truly believe that they make you look good. But yeah, don't sweat the small stuff. That would be the big thing for me. Can I ask a little bit about what you talked about earlier and in Postus Syndrome? Because you've talked about it very openly before to the group of cheerleaders that have been part of setting up, raising the glass. And you rebrand it as Improver Syndrome. But how was that in Postus Syndrome shown up for you in your career? And how'd you deal with it? I think to be fair, I think I only really got it when I set up North South Wines. And I think a lot of it was before that you had the crutch of everybody else and you kind of weren't in control of everything. And then when you set up North South Wines, well, when I set up North South Wines, you're kind of out there. And you put your team colleagues, but you're out there on your own. And I think also the wine trade is so traditional. And it isn't so much now, but back then, very male dominated. Amazing people that are hugely respected in the trade and who I hugely respect in the trade. And I think I spent the first five years trying to be them is what I did. So I was almost emulating somebody that I wasn't. And I think that caused me real issues in the sense that I was not being me. And it was only until I realised that I needed to be me that I'm still going to have the imposter side of things that I'm going to get found out or I don't know a certain vintage or I don't know where a certain wine comes from. And for me, the imposter thing came out. And it was only when I realised what was going on that I was like, right, I need to change this. I need to think about like change the narrative. Think about it slightly differently. And there was somebody that told me you're not an imposter, you're an improved run. And that really resonates with me now. I think about it all the time. And I think imposter, I think everybody's got it because everybody had you. You always have a doubt. Is that kind of a question? fight or flight thing. You always have a doubt about certain things that you do, but it's how you use that and how you use that, nervousness, whatever it is that you've got there. And I think the big thing for me was recognizing that I didn't need to be somebody else. I could just be me. And I think that's what has made North South Hawaiians truly different is that I don't know anything, I don't know anything, of course I know things, but I don't know everything. And the really big thing for me is, is ask questions. And that's something else I would tell my younger self is ask more questions too, because there's nothing wrong with asking questions. The most intelligent people ask questions and no question is a silly question. And so for me it's about if I don't know something, I say I don't know what that is, it's made to me what that is. And it's not about feeling embarrassed or having an ego that you feel like you can't ask that question. And I think that taught me a lot with that. And I think also being so open, I am an oversharing, but being so open as well gives people the kind of free will to go, okay I can ask that question, I can be brave and ask that question. And I think that's the really big thing. And I think I'm also very honest in a wine world that can sometimes be seen as a little bit pretentious that I am a commercial animal is what I am. I love wine, I'm really passionate about wine, but I love finding solutions or looking for the next thing, how are we going to make more margin for our customers, how are we going to give the consumer exactly what they want. And then the wine bit comes into that and then that's a fun bit because then you go and find the bits that you need to put into those slots. And yes we do get to travel and do nice things, but for me it's about the commerciality of what wine is, but never be frient to answer, ask a question. I think Lottie who is here today with her producer had on, talked about questions when she was on the podcast and she talked about the bravery of toddlers, they'll ask, children will ask questions all of the time, you're right, it's really brave to ask questions, particularly when you're in your imposter syndrome, but role modelling that behaviour, asking those questions, speaking last, speaking quietest and giving the space to the experts that you've surrounded yourself with brilliant advice. I think you also talked a little bit around when you have that imposter syndrome, quietening it by bringing out your authenticity. Can you truly be an imposter in the moment if you're being your true self, whereas you described the first sort of five years in North South wines being something else, that must have felt like you were showing up differently and that must have felt like there was a bit of a tension for yourself almost getting up and going to work every day. Yeah definitely and I think I didn't notice it, my family noticed it. At work I was, I felt like I was in control and I knew what I was doing and then at home I was crumbling and I was somebody that I didn't want to be and I think the big thing for me was recognising that and then owning it and then changing what I needed to do and also not thinking you need to be like that person over there because they're doing it better than you. Just be yourself and it comes and people come with you and the more open you are, the more people come with you. So yeah. We met a few months ago. It felt like long when we went back and worked out. It felt like longer which I think is probably representative of the environment you create and bringing people on the journey but I was huge out of my depth. I was still at a stage where I wasn't even googling on trade and off trade. I was googling what colour great. These be grapes and you were huge support for me and we talked a lot about is it okay to describe a wine as jammy for any wine listeners out there? Yes it is. That's what it takes like totally cool. But you were one of my biggest cheerleaders in the room that night and you have been, you've been instrumental in breathing life into raising the glass. So I do want to pause and acknowledge and say thank you. But my observations of you, I think it's linked to a little bit about how you talk about bringing people on the journey is you have this skill for cutting through and connecting. In moments of speed and agility and just building those true connections really quickly, do you recognise that in yourself and if so where does it come from? Yeah I do. I do recognise it in myself. I think I'm going to try and say this without swearing but it's about giving a damn. So I have a phrase at work about giving a you know the word I mean. And I think the big thing is that if you show people you care, the people that care and the people that step up and the people that are there all the time, you're going to get, you're going to follow through at some point, somebody is going to come on that journey with you. I think a lot of it as well is hard work and resilience too and never giving up like tenacity such a big thing and I definitely get that from my dad so my dad is a farm arm so he would be up first thing before anybody and he would be home last thing as well. And I think we just learned from him to really work hard and I think that's that's where it comes from. I'm like doing a good job and he retired a couple of years ago but he hasn't properly retired because the owner still loves him so much so now he drives the owner around the field so he can go and see everything that he needs to see also. He's still working really hard, he's 75 and still working really hard so yeah I really look up to him from that point I think that's where I've got my grit and determination is definitely on my father's child differently. And what a legacy to leave that you retire and you're still so valuable. Yeah I love him yeah that they just want to spend more time with him. Yeah definitely. You mentioned being an oversharer you mentioned you yourself mentioned being oversharer a lot. Yeah. Do you truly believe you're an oversharer? I think it depends who the person is that you're talking to so some people will think I'm an oversharer some people will just be like she's really honest and I think that's again the uniqueness about who we are, who I am, who North South Wines is is that when I walk into a winery for the first time I don't think people think they're going to get what they're going to get and it's just again that showing that true authenticity of who you are and people buy from people and people trade with people they like and a really big thing that we have at North South Wines is that I don't believe in having relationships that are a traditional that gets you nowhere and it's just a waste of everyone's time and just makes you all like uptight and it doesn't you don't get the best out of people. So for us it's very much about when we go to look for new producers or new customers whatever it is is how can we work together collaboratively because that is the best way that you get on board of that. So oversharing becomes part of that because you have to kind of open up on who you are. You can't just sit and have a face you've got to or a front of what you've got there you've got to open up and let people in and I think that's the biggest thing for me is that I like to let people in and I allow people in and then share that with them as well. So yeah I am known as #OvershareAtWork. So and it's really interesting because when you talk about it like that you talk about all the benefits to it and the creating connections and letting people in and you almost talk about it with a pride of this this is unashamedly me. Welcome in. But when you describe it out of that situation you almost frame it with a negative framework of #OvershareAtWork instead of seeing it and owning that strength. Yeah. Hey I'm an #Overshare and I create connections that last throughout my whole career. Why do you think you lead with the negativity behind it? Personally I just think it's a female thing. I think we're all a bit reserved and you kind of feel like oh god I've just said something really positive about myself. I need to now pull it back with a negative is what I need to do. So I think that's just in you and I think it's yeah I think it's just something that's there but I do see it as a positive definitely and I've learnt so much so you know at the beginning of North South wines before even even up until a year ago we celebrated our 10th anniversary in March of this year so there was a lot of press and PR around that and I think a lot of people didn't really know what we've done and how we've come on the journey because we never really talked about it and I think it's because I think it was just because we were working really hard and just got our heads down getting what we needed but then I something clicked where I said I need to share the story and my view is if I can inspire one person to do something that they didn't think they could do my job's done and I think that was the really big thing for me is that I think it is important to share now so hence the oversharing bits of it but if I think back to when we first set up North South wines I would have gone into a winery in a very different style to what I would go into now but I think you just evolve as well I was 31 when I set up North South wine so fairly young I'm 42 now I'm still really young but I think you're just evolved and you build confidence and I think life expects we've been through so much in the last 10 years as well so obviously various things with the business run out of cash is a really big one you do that a couple of times and that puts a couple of wrinkles on you definitely in a few grey hairs and the big ones are obviously we've been through Brexit we've had COVID that completely changed the world so you kind of just grow and develop with that but I think what COVID did as well was why it was a truly truly awful awful time for everybody what it did do was give people time to be at home and reflect more on what's important to you know I really genuinely believe that that it gave everybody the time that because you had that threat of losing really important people in your life I think when you roll off alphabetically all the challenges in the last five to ten years. It's the huge and I know when I went three covid one of one of my children said something to me which was really stuck with me just came home from school one day and said I always wondered if I'd live through something that would be in history books and this is it and yeah and it is and and you're right to talk about that how that time felt and what we were all dealing with because we have come out of it and we've kept some behaviors and some other behaviors have shifted but we all had to be so much more resilient particularly small business owners yeah that resilience that you talked about how have you built it up and you've talked to you've got older kind of being a bit more comfortable I think maybe resilience plays into that and how do you build it though and how do you lift yourself up? yeah I think the biggest thing for me was going into covid was um such a challenge in time because one of mine the lady that I set the business up with decided to leave just before covid and for me that was like you're right I'm being chopped off because you were losing somebody that you'd set a business up with and things were going to change but it was almost it was like the start of everything but first of all we had to get through the bit of everybody buying toilet rolls because while everybody was buying toilet rolls they were not buying wine and I was like this is game over this business is going on I'm like we're not going to survive this so we put half the team on furlough and then once everybody had their store covers full of toilet roll they decided that they wanted to buy wine and it just went crazy so like most of the team came back and for me it was that was resilience and it's helping being brave for six weeks and thinking like how are we going to get through this what are we going to do to get through this and resilience for me is really about it's a mind game you have to be really strong in your mind because you can't show all I kept thinking the whole time was I've got 18 people working for me this is 18 people's livelihoods that could go if we don't get through this and at that time I had a little bit of a wobble as well and I think that was pressure of the last five years of not really knowing who I was and what I wanted to do as a business but I think also some some back things that have happened that I've not dealt with grief is a really big thing for me it's a trigger for me and there's things that I haven't dealt with in the past and I think it all came together and it came together just at the right time because it gave me the time to one put my hand up and say I'm not okay I need help and to anybody that's listening this it is okay to say you're not okay I cannot tell you how important that phrase is because I was somebody like I've got to hold this hold this whole thing together I've got to be the one that's brave I've got to be the one that's strong and I don't mind saying I broke one weekend I just broke and I was like I can't do this I don't know what to do and I asked for help and that was the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life is having to go and ask for help but I got help and I met an amazing lady throughout here who I talked to for a year and a half and I talked to her sporadically now and she just helps you give you perception and then use those negatives that might have happened in the past or things that you've done to change it and make it into a positive but to understand why you feel like that and to say to you it's okay for you to feel like that and I think that's the resilience thing for me is that I have to dig really deep sometimes and go do you know what it's okay let you can get through this you can do this and then the other bit around that for me is pulling in my team my family and anything that's there that I can pull in that's good from it I've got some great shareholders as well so I'm really lucky that I can reach out to them as well for me I put I like to put great people around me so for me I like to meet new people and then when you meet those people you're kind of like yeah we can we can do good things together and we can we can work on that and you can every day's a school day you can learn every single day and I think it's taking those like being a sponge and even when you own a company and it's 10 years I'll just still learn in I've still got so much to learn and those are the big big days for me and how I use my resilience to really drag me through the dark days how did it feel when you went down that that cliff that's terrific I'm not okay yeah but when you went from saying in your head I don't think I'm okay I'm not okay I'm not okay to to saying those words out loud to to asking for help how was that moment yeah it felt I'm a control freak anybody that knows me knows that I am I think any entrepreneur is but um without control I felt out of control and I think that was the scariest bit for me was like I actually don't know what to do um but once I said those words and they were really tough to get out but once I said those words I was like okay I've got a plan now I've got a plan and that was the biggest thing was I think you need a road map it's like with everything in life having a road map to get you through or to tell you where you need to go it's a really positive thing um and having goals and aspirations as well and for that time it literally was like I can't do this and then as soon as I said those words and got help that that was it it was a crutch and I just needed this crutch and had some certain individuals particularly my team because I didn't tell I told two people in the team and that was it and um they rallied around me and scooped me up um and we just had to get on with it is what we had to do but I had got the headspace to do it and I'd got somebody helping me with that headspace as well and it's so important and I think even if you know the stigma that goes with it that you've got a therapist or whatever just treat them like a friend it's like having a conversation with a friend like don't put any stigma to it don't label it it's having a conversation and it's somebody that's trained to understand to make you understand why you feel the way you feel and so for me it was when I came out of that it was really positive for me to talk about it so about a year and a half later I sent an email to my whole company including my shareholders that was titled it's okay not to be okay and I kind of just detailed out what what I'd been through and I had so many amazing messages back and I clearly didn't do it for that but people that were just like we had no idea we had no idea whatsoever um and then people told me their own stories and that was just so inspiring and just I thought if I can do that and that can help that person to recognise that you know what I haven't been okay and I didn't realise I wasn't okay but I'm going to go and ask for some help or I'm going to talk to somebody about it that's amazing so I will always talk about it that because it is such a taboo subject and it just shouldn't be and so life is tough it's really difficult and the challenges that we've been through and the challenges that we've had and the challenges we will continue to have you can't be okay all the time so yeah I call it a support crutch and that's what you need to have I think you're right and I think the only way you take stigma away from things is by more people talking about it definitely and more people normalising it and if you had a physical ailment you would go to a doctor bringing the conversations around our mental well-being to the forefront so important because you said a lot of people didn't know a lot you write a lot of people didn't know what you were going through but I bet a lot of people knew maybe something isn't up or Kim's a bit sure to the normal or she's not quite what the reactions I'm getting from her aren't quite what I'm expecting to get yeah and then the shadow you cast yeah definitely by being able to say you know I wasn't okay right back to what you said earlier if you can if somebody can take something from it yeah definitely change something yeah for me definitely and I think we put so much pressure on ourselves and one thing for me I always think I need to be 100% perfect and I've learnt a lot over the last few years and one is and somebody used to tell me that you are 99.9% perfect just that 0.01 you need to work on so I would almost want to like kill myself to work really hard to focus on that 0.01 well in my head I should be like oh my god I am awesome I'm 99.9% there but I focus on the negative and now I'm like I've learned to go you don't have to be perfect it's quite nice not to be perfect do not put that added pressure on yourself to be perfection and I think that that is just naturally that something is in people that you can just tie yourself up in knots thinking you need to be perfect and and you don't like even being 75% perfect is amazing and you can you can develop that totally yeah develop that as a skill and actually you get way more energy from doing stuff that you're good at and and I'm with you I think throughout my career I've looked at the okay but what's the 5% that that says something isn't as good as somebody else might be next not acknowledging the fact that actually I could have all this amazing skill set over here and I think there's lots of stuff out there that allows you to focus on your strengths and get even better at your strengths and there will be people listening who will know because I always say to people what is it that you do that people go I can't believe you do that and you just go well of course I do that surely everybody does that it's really easy that's your superpower yeah totally that's what you want to do even more of because it's easy for you you probably get energy from it and you shine even brighter and then use that energy to maybe work a little bit on that 0.1% yeah but don't put it all in that 0.1% yeah definitely not all just get people around you that can do that bit that you can't do is it's so much better as a team and use your superpower to develop that superpower team as well so that's what I would say but it's about a long time focusing on that and I think that didn't help me like mentally as well so you you realize like show the vulnerability show that you're not perfect but just be human just be you how hard has it been for you to go on a journey of showing that vulnerability um to begin with I also didn't talk about it very much but then when you start talking about it and then other people come to you you realize that okay you've got a voice and you should use that and I'm very fortunate to be here. in the position that I'm in and I think for me people like myself and other people that go out then talk loud and proud about I think it's really important so for me I vulnerability is not a bad word for me at all I'm very happy to to show that and I think yeah I mean I can see where some people might think like that will be used against you that will be this and I just think do you know what that'd be a really truly awful person that would use that against you like they should be like you know giving you a high five that you know you've identified this and you're you're out there talking to people and helping other people on the same way and so for me it's just yeah just go on the road yeah here's a question for you then how many times when you've been vulnerable has somebody come up to you and used it against you I don't think anybody has to be honest with you I genuinely don't and I think that's maybe because of the type of person that I am because you can be vulnerable but you can still be strong you can still there's the different parts so you can show your vulnerability but you also know that somebody's going to take the mic out of you as well or someone's going to use that against you and it's like no hang on a minute I'm not that vulnerable like I'm not that vulnerable because I I don't think I've seen that yeah I think that's almost us trying our brain which is a huge supercomputer trying to protect us going well if I just tell you that this isn't going to go very well yeah you won't want to do it you want to put your hopes and fears and dreams out there will you know let's just stay safe but I agree with you I think vulnerability is a huge powerful connection tool yeah I agree too yeah I really do so in terms of leaving the ladder for the next generation and all the people that are going to join the wine industry in the drinks industry what's the best bit of advice that you would leave if you have a dream if you have something you want to do go for it um believe in yourself um don't let anybody stop you because a lot of people don't get to do what they want to do because their mind stops them or there's somebody tells them they can't do it but if you genuinely in your gut want to do something you will do it you've just got to have that grit and that determination and that resilience that's such an important word that resilience to just do it so I would say just go into and what's the worst that can happen it doesn't work and then you do something counts but for me I doubt myself so many times thinking should I do no self should I not do do self and it was more because somebody came to me and said you should do something and I was like I don't know what to do how do I do it what do I do and I pulled some people around me to get help and experience from and then it just exploded I thought we were literally going to be two of us with one Italian winery and you know here we are today and um for me it's like yeah if you've got a dream believe it do it you'll never regret it never regret anything because well never regret dream big yeah dream big um I feel like I've asked uh quite a few questions of you and so every so often I like to shake it up um what one question would you like to ask me okay I'm gonna love this one so for anybody that knows me they know that I'm utterly crazy about dogs so I don't have any children my dogs and my babies so my question to you Rommie if you could be any dog what dog would you be I'm getting a bit of imposter syndrome as a friend went through all the breeds of dogs that um I know and also make the sound like a logically thought out response and I probably would be a border collie because they are hugely hugely intelligent animals um and that intelligence can learn and grow and that there is a reason why they have been valued by farmers for years and years and years um but I think their intelligence comes from an emotive place I think it comes from connections and emotional connections I think they're very loyal and I think they want to be part of the team and then I love the fact that every so often once in a while you just see them running across a field complete abandonment wind in their furry little ears just letting off steam um without what looks like a care in the world so I think I'd be a border collie what would you really well I'd be a Labrador definitely a Labrador of course you oh yeah I think my answer for a Labrador would be is they're really loyal eager to learn really good to train um but they really are a bit silly sometimes as well and I think that kind of represents a bit of me as well so yeah definitely a Labrador that was a bit of a left-field question the good one isn't it it is a good one um I'm gonna keep that in my question bank I'm gonna ask um a personal question what's your biggest failure being so I think the biggest failure was and I learned very quickly because I think it's good to fail at things genuinely I believe that it's good to do things wrong it's good to get things wrong and it's good to fail sometimes as well because failing can mean that you build yourself back up and come to something else I think the biggest failure I've ever done is thought that North South winds was going to be easy um and I think the first year we got very excited um spent way too much money ran out of money and then the worst thing is when you have to go and ask people for money and you have to beg borrow and steal from whoever you can get money from and I've got some very lovely people that were very nice to us um but you feel like yeah this is this could all go and I think that's the biggest thing so anybody that comes to me now that sets up their own business they'll say to me what is the one piece of advice you could give me Kim I was like do not overspend what she cash flow and I think that's a bit for me is that I think we thought in the early days I think we thought we were invincible I think we just and I look back to it now and I think like do you know what I'm not going to kick myself for it because I was like a 32 year old um with a colleague opening up a business that I had no idea what I was doing yes I'd I'd run a business and I'd run a business for somebody before and I'd learn a lot of stuff there but we weren't in control we weren't paying the bills we weren't the ones that I wanted to worry about all of that we were just doing the day today stuff and I think that's the biggest thing for me is yeah that's probably my biggest failure in the sense that it could have all it could have all gone but again that mindset of switching into how do you change it around I'm not frightened to ask anybody anything and I think if you're when you do have to go out there and ask for money um obviously being able to repay that money but also give it with interest um is a really big thing so I'm very proud that we did it I'm very proud we've paid all of that back now and um yeah I think I think it teaches you to go that far as well it teaches you then how to respect cash and how to look after it going forwards so you live breathe dream cash flow and ten years on we still do that I have a bit of money in the bank now that we operate of our own cash flow but um for me you still dream about it and you think about it all the time because that can so easily go the other way but it teaches you and I think that's a good thing to learn things from any failures thank you um Kim we are hurtling towards the final question now um who would you raise a glass to because of the impact that they have had on you this one's a really easy one for me so I mentioned him earlier on so it would be a amazing gentleman called Bernard G'sbury who was my boss at Carlsberg that I respected so much it was unreal and on my first day of starting his boss told me came over and said burn has taken a huge risk on you you're the first president's coming to Carlsberg without a degree and he was the one that really pushed for you to come in here so don't let him down and that is resonated with me for so long while I was there and I was like I'm gonna kill it while I'm here and Bernard was somebody to he was someone to fear definitely he was the type of president who come out with you and he would he would just get through everything and you could not like um I'm trying not to swear you couldn't black him that's where I'm gonna use rather than swearing but you couldn't lie about anything with him um but he was amazing he taught me and the team at Carlsberg but him in particular taught me the foundations and when I was when you're doing things there like the five-part brand talk and all this I'm like this is rubbish I'm never gonna sit in a custom front of a customer and do all of this and now it's like it's in you you've just learnt it and you're not doing it but you are doing it but it doesn't feel like you're doing it and all of those skills are so fundamental to them move on to what you're doing them further on in your career it's such a great training ground and he was brilliant and he's still an awesome awesome friend of mine he's retired now but um yeah he's an amazing person so I will raise a glass to Bernard James Brains who I will raise a glass to thank you raising the glasses about women in our eyes and drinks but it's also about that intersectionality and that it's it's like asking for people to apply for a job who have a driving license will you automatically take a lot of people out of the application pool asking people who have got a university degree takes a lot of great people out of an application pool that could have a number of reasons why they haven't gone to university yeah and I think by its very nature of trying to raise the glass and leave the ladder we also need to get into how do we make the drinks industry more accessible for everybody because some of the brightest minds that I've worked with think in amazingly different ways that have transformed business differently our great which might not have a degree or might not have a driving licence but have been invaluable. So I think at a point for everybody to reflect. For those challenge brands, for those more brands, you are that person that they can see it, they can believe it, they can dream big. So thank you for sharing your story today. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. So that's it. Hopefully you've enjoyed today's episode. That's us all wrapped up. If you have enjoyed the conversation, you know what to do. Please like and subscribe. Follow us on social media and connect with us at www.raisingtheglas.co.uk. Thank you to everyone who reached out after our last episode. If you have any stories to share or questions for future guests, please drop us an email at [email protected]. We would love to hear from you. We'll be back in your ears next episode. But for now, let's all raise the glass, fill the legacy and leave the ladder. Raising the glass, a podcast brought you from the podcasting suite at Red Bull.