IT Business Partner Playbook | Special Episode on BRM Tools, with Megan Diehm

Hello and a very warm welcome to you all my name is Mark Morley and this is the IT Business Partner Podcast, a unique series where I'm joined every week by a business partners and business relationship managers from around the globe. This is where we cut through the noise and talk about what business partner really is in practice, the wins, the roadblocks and the small but powerful shifts and make the difference. You'll hear from people that have been there, done that and learn what truly works. Before we jump into today's conversation I've got two favors to ask. First, if you've got any thoughts or feedback about the podcast please share these in the comments. Your input really helps us to share the conversations and unless there's no that we're not just talking to ourselves. Secondly, if you're finding value in these episodes please hit the follow or subscribe button and give the episode a thumbs up. Only half of you watch the series are subscribers which is pretty common but it really would help us if you if you could get that button. So on to today's episode I'm excited to be joined by Megan Deem again and a nightly business relationship manager for a resultant based in the UK, a US sorry. Megan joined us recently for one of our regular episodes. We're both pretty excited to record this special episode with via some specifics on the tool that Megan's team is using. So good morning to you Megan. Thanks so much for joining me. Slavety to you again. But those who can see your last episode could be just have a quick introduction and then we can go and take a deeper dive into motion. Absolutely. My name is Megan Deem. I am a IT business relationship manager for resultant. We are a IT consulting firm and I work specifically in our managed services supporting a public sector client, 30-of-port Wayne Allen County and 30 utilities. So my role is to lead a team of VRMs to support the enterprise across all three of those entities because they have shared infrastructure so there's a lot of alignment and strategic work behind those things to bring together the full benefit of those shared resources. So as people might not have seen from the previous episode I followed you on LinkedIn and then saw you were talking about this VRM tool and your team are just implemented. So I was really excited to talk to you about that. When our last episode got talking there was so much else that you had to share that was really great and we didn't have to get spend much time on on notion. So thankfully you suggested we could do another episode special just on notion. The reason I was kind of really excited about this is because a lot of other roles, capabilities have tools that they use project managers, architects, sales, whatever is. A lot of people have their own tools. VRM I guess maybe because it's not as mature as other roles because it's not been around as long. It doesn't seem to have as many options available for people and VRMs and business partners just typically end up using the tools of their colleagues. They don't have anything of their own but the VRM and business partners are a unique role so it makes absolutely sense that they have something that they can use to kind of manage their work flow and just demonstrate the work that they're doing. So I was really kind of excited to see that you're using one that is and this is making a real difference to you. So yeah I'd love to hear more about how you're using it. Yeah so I have a newer team we onboarded to people about a year ago but we are a bunch of four and I've been in this role for about five years now. So what I had noticed was there was a challenge that's pretty common across VRM teams which is that every one of us meets with our departments, our business units and we gather a lot of information but when you gather so much information it is very difficult to know what to bring forward to your colleagues so that you can inform them of what's happening in another area that may be applicable to that other business unit. We had gone through several iterations of different tools and one of the challenges we found is a lot of inherent gaps. Now I realized being in IT, no tool is ever going to be 100 percent right so what we worked to do was first really define the struggle that we were trying to solve and then look at opportunities in different tooling options out on the market. So the thing that we really identified as our biggest gap was the ability to mass review across all of the information to identify trends and we have a lot of documents, we have a lot of presentations, business cases, those kinds of things but what we didn't have was a way to identify and bring that all together for a 30,000 foot view of the entire environment. We had it in each area versus the whole and when we started looking at tools we explored a lot of options. Frankly one of the hardest things for us was the financial constraint in public sector. So that's when we found notion. The thing I love about notion is that notion is a very flexible tool so you are able to iterate and develop the tool as you leverage it which is good and bad right. So think building the plane while you're trying to fly it in itself had some inherent challenges but what it also did was challenge our team to fully articulate what the problem was that we were trying to solve for each subsequent iteration and what was born out of that was a highly powerful tool that we can use collectively as a group to really understand challenges on a broad scale. For example, I was able to create a overview of six months of meetings across all four of us and identify some of those bucket trends that we were all seeing and that work before would have taken me weeks to go through and meet with each one of them understand theirs, compare and contrast across the team that AI element that could help me build out those trends and also reference where they were brought forward. That was key to me too because data is powerful but if you don't necessarily understand where the data came from there isn't a lot of fruit or merit in it. So with notion being able to tie those insights and trends to this meeting, this conversation, this stakeholder, this business unit and department at those granular levels, it really actually empowered us in a way that I didn't realize we would be able to do. I had a pie in this division but like anything else you really have to plant the seeds and it takes time for that to grow and we are at the point now where we're able to start to harness some of the power of that which has been a significant game changer. It also changes the dynamic of our team meetings before you do a bit of a round robin what's happening in public safety, what's happening and community development but you're missing some of the smaller things that may be that consistent trend thread across all of them. Like maybe they're having not where flips and one person mentioned it over here a month or two later you see it over here we wouldn't have brought those together to say let's investigate that let's better understand is that site specific is it remote sites what are we seeing. So there and because I mean one of the things I like about tools basically when you're thinking about taking one at all is if first of all you have to kind of get your ducks in a row so you have to think to yourself okay what actually is important to us what is it that we want to do but what you know not only what we're doing now but what is it we really need to do and then when you start looking at tools they kind of often give you an idea of well actually this is the tool has been built in such a way that they've been the people have built the tool kind of understand what people should be doing maybe what you're doing isn't part of that and there's also one of the benefits is that they thought about things that you haven't thought about so over there with there many things that while you were while you were kind of before you got to the tool stage or you mentioned scene tool where there many things that you realized okay we're doing this and we probably might be done need to or the tool can do this and we're not doing it and we should be. The tool with notion is really a build it yourself style tool it's a series of databases there is a repository of different templates so that was another nice asset for us because we had tools for example we have a sauna which is a great project management tool and I like the structure of a sauna however that structure doesn't necessarily have to be the structure for the VRM so being able to review different templates that could be more applicable to our workflow and the dynamics of our role was really important to me and frankly a lot of the attractiveness started at the cost level I didn't go into a tool looking for 100% I was really seeking a 80% move the needle like how can we bring it together and the tool is relatively inexpensive for our team of four it's less than a thousand US dollars a year and for us in public sector that itself made a big difference which is another reason why for the cost benefit analysis of it, the value far outweighed any of the shortcomings that we would have identified because of not just the low cost but the malability of the tool and the way that we could cure eight it into our workflow but also see what other people are doing and take what was working and throw away what didn't work specifically for our team and that in itself cost quite a bit of iteration right we would see a new template get really excited try it out that could really work things like that and that goes back to building the plane while you're flying but we knew that going into it so we came into it with the very open mind because we had looked at other tools we got really excited about some of the tools that we saw through the BRM Institute one specifically that I really was excited about was Atlas XTO yeah yeah yeah um amazing tool I was really excited about it we were hoping to partner with that tool group but frankly it was well outside of our budget and that constraint was really disappointing and so we needed to get creative one thing that we see a lot in public sector is this idea of imposed constraints on you where you we knew we had a financial constraint right but that didn't necessarily mean that we couldn't find a tool to move the needle we just had to look at what specifically are we moving and why and how can we do that just to start right let's just try a little bit we're not going to eat the elephant and that created a lot of momentum for us when we found notion notion is similar to Microsoft's loop and we are a Microsoft shop so the embeddedness of loop was extremely attractive the challenge that we had with loop was the inability to really harness all of the data across the meetings and the different pages it did a great job analyzing a page or a tab but not the collective whole right and that gap is where you lose the trends you lose the ability to articulate the big picture as well as the granularity of is the specific department or initiative that you're working on if you've been surprised to talk about what was brought the most value because I guess when you went out looking for a tool you think you're well you know it'd be great if we could do this great we could do that you know you obviously have these these ideas but now that you've got the tool you're using it there's probably some things that are actually really bringing value that maybe you wouldn't have foreseen is it an experience at all I have so one of the interesting things is as a BRM sometimes we chow we are we struggle to really measure a relationship and one of the things that I've been working on is identifying triggers or levers that really demonstrate a shift in that partnership so being able to build in a formula that analyzes the meetings it's not are you having a meeting right it is what is the quality of the meeting the sentiment score helps to inform over time where that trigger point is where you level up in the relationship okay still working to refine it but it gives me a lot of hope and excitement because that's one of those intangibles that people always say your role is to build relationships but what does that mean if you set out to make everyone happy you're never going to achieve the goal right so measuring a relationship felt to me like go make everyone happy and frankly I'm just never going to be able to achieve that and so having a a really fundamental element of my role that was hard to quantify or qualify yeah I really struggled with that as somebody who is very driven and want momentum and impact and value not being able to quantify that piece like you feel it right you know in your heart and your core when things really start to shift and they click for you but being able to see in real time how that growth really transpires was something that I always wanted and we're still refining it it's still a work in progress but we are cultivating the ability to better understand and being able to use the AI to define a sentiment score of the meeting it's really about quality right not quantity it's what are they bringing to you what are you solving what's coming out of it how is this feeding their business and those are really the metrics that drive a BRM and so being able to start to see that and track that has been really exciting and had a big game changer for our team now still very and it's still very much in the early stages but I'm seeing a lot of promise and the way that it tracks it gives me information on what we're doing well and where maybe some of our challenges are so as a leader it helps me identify areas of development for my team which wasn't something I was anticipating to get out of notion but provides an invaluable asset to me in a way that just really drives our practice as a VRM capability in public sector here that's really cool have you found that the team are more motivated now that this this tool is helping them kind of demonstrate value and improve kind of what is it they're bringing to the table yes so when I produced that six-month trend analysis we sat down as a team and went through it and in the beginning because we were building it as we were flying there were some challenges with adoption we would use this tool or that tool and then not all of the information would find its way into notions so yeah then being able to see what is possible in it and the power of it brought a lot of excitement to the discussion the other thing it really created was we all do those quarterly business reviews and your annual retrospective this gives you tactical here's what we talked about here are some of the challenges and things we solved but it gives you better data collective data across your conversations it's not you reviewing meeting notes and prior power points or business cases it can help do a lot of that for you so you're able to really speak to the value and the impact without spending a lot of time digging in the weeds and that is a significant enabler and an accelerator which is exactly what I want every technology tool to be for a team or department so being able to show the power of the work acceleration is a game changer and something that really gets them all excited they can't wait for their end of year retrospective now they see how they could leverage this tool in a way that they're not spending two weeks developing that conversation this can help them strengthen that development of the conversation because we're not spending so much time seeking through all these meeting notes yeah yeah no there must be yeah I mean it's you want to spend your time adding value then it sounds like this is really kind out a lot of the legwork but you're not adding value are you happy we'll stay does require quite a bit of admin work okay and not in the typical I sent an email do this or that but if you do not add the specific tags to some of it it doesn't do it for you so you won't be able to search it in the same way which ultimately can provide some gaps so there are meetings that you do need to make sure you're tying the department to that meet those meetings it'll write the notes for you but if you don't add the department in the field you're not going to be able to pull all that department's information it may pull that one and identify it but that tagging piece is really important and it was something that as a collective we were not doing well and the six-month analysis was like okay now I get it I'll do the administrative stuff that I do didn't really see a lot of value in that felt monotony. Sure. But now I see the why behind it. Hmm. Yeah. Have you noticed a difference in your relationships with the people you're working with since you've used this tool? We have. And the reason why is we're able to provide them better information. It's not just information on their business, but what's happening around them. And it does drive more cross-department opportunities. One of the overarching themes that we found was a lot of areas struggle with project management. Now, the way I define project or you define project may be very different. We all know a project starts and stops. However, the maturity of project management in these different areas, it varies wildly. And so really understanding that it's not unique to this area or that area, but maybe this area over here does it well. And they have a more mature foundation of what that means. That understanding can help inform this other area and elevate their discipline, if you will, but also create a better opportunity for the collaboration because when you have mature and immature practices of essentially the same process, it does get in the way of being able to really collaborate well. And that had, we've seen some frustration with that. So identifying that as a consistent threat across helps us to know that when we're looking at and working with HR to develop career paths, project management is one that really needs to be built out in our learning management system. And if you have some of these project managers in different areas, they need to be taking these courses so that everybody is defining project in the same way. Have you noticed that there's, whether through this tool or otherwise, that there are certain things that your team are required to do, where they do need upskilling in certain things? I mean, a few things have come out from recent podcasts that financial argument is something that people maybe didn't realise that they would need or dissails background. So is any of this being thrown out, either by the use of notion or otherwise, that we need to actually upskill people in different areas? Yes, so it's interesting you asked yesterday, one of my peers and I did a site survey for a critical department. And throughout the site survey, we were working with a, it was for 911 communications. And we were talking about what system and how this system is going to evolve what it is that they're doing and ways that this is going to empower them. But it also got into the weeds of VoIP and some of those different dependencies. Now, I personally am not an expert on any of those VoIP elements. So it did tell me while I thought I had an inch deep, I probably hear neat about four to seven inches deep because I want to be able to have a intelligent conversation with the vendor, but also better understand what it is they're telling me so that if there is a gap, I can help raise it, especially because those dispatchers, they're very focused on emergency management. So if there is a technology gap that we don't surface early, that can impact their operations. And I really noticed in a lot of those conversations that, you know, everybody uses phones, right, across the enterprise. And that's where I thought I had that inch, but maybe I do need to go a little bit deeper in understanding how they are transmitted to the different areas and that kind of thing because it empowers everyone's business. Everyone has phones and there are some of those threads that we need to dig a little deeper in. And for me, that was a really big eye opener to say, okay, that was an area that I didn't even anticipate. In our environment, there's so much diversity of industry. You've got fleet and public safety. You have courts. And there are a myriad of different jargons and acronyms and I can absolutely talk the language. But boy, it was one I just never thought through, right? I was looking at cyber security or networking, infrastructure, and then understanding the workflow and process of human resources and controller's office. But that was one that I just didn't see. You mentioned there about being the mile wide and this is something I think I would make a terrible PRM because you have to be very organised. I mean, there's so much you need to have a hand long. And this is whenever I talk to people, I think I don't know how you managed to keep an ad on the listing. There's so many things that you need to kind of follow through and make sure the right people are connected and write things. If you don't, being a PRM, you absolutely need trust and credibility. And you've only got to drop a couple of those balls and your trust has gone. So I think it's massively important for PRM's and business partners to obviously manage everything well. Have you noticed that motion having everything in this environment as enable people to get a better, you know, manage things better? You know, they're reminded about things they don't have to worry about, they're guessing things because it's all in this central place. Yes and no. And what I mean by that is knowing what you need to do in doing it are two different things. So notion does a great job of having the list of tasks, finding the time to do the tasks and the ownership of follow through is definitely something that you have to own. And it will do that for you. It does help keep you aligned. It helps you not forget that small thing. When you're looking, did that person do this thing that is important for this project over here? It connects the dots for you, but you still have to actually do the follow through. I think sometimes we can get a little comfortable in the fact that a tool connects those dots, but it's the accountability and ownership of following through that is really important. The administrative element of the dots is important, but it's only one piece. So having that taken off your plate should empower the other, but it's a balance. Everybody navigates that trade off differently. Sometimes if I have more weight in owning, connecting the dots, I understand them better. So I do think that having a tool that does some of that critical thinking for you is both a double-edged sword. If you will, because like I said, we were able to create this trend analysis over those six months, which was powerful and a significant time saver. But also, am I doing and learning the same skills that I would be refining or honing if I did that work manually? And that's where I think as a leader, we really have to think about the trade off. And what does that actually mean? If somebody has a tool that helps with some of those elements that really drive our role, how are we ensuring that they maintain the ability to do the skill? But also that they are refining that ability, that they are continuing to develop and grow as a BRM. So that's something that, while I was, I'm really excited about what's possible. I'm also as a leader, wondering from a development perspective, I don't want to stunt my team and the ability to create a roadmap. And strategically and align initiatives to bigger strategy components. The tool can help, but I don't want the tool to do all the work. It's really important that we leverage tools in a way that we are empowered, but we still ultimately drive that work. And we do the alignment. It's a fine line though, isn't it? I mean, I use AI a lot as a resource assistant. But then part of doing research is you're learning as you're researching. So if someone else is doing that for you, then you're not getting the full benefit of it. But it is difficult. I think as a leader, it's quite a challenge to trade that off against cutting down times. You've got more times to do other other tasks, but then also making sure that you're getting the benefit of the. of doing that research and doing what I always know, no, no. Yeah, I will say with my team, I do, we have a scorecard and we go through it semi-annual. Meaning we do it at the beginning of the year and I recently am just wrapping up doing it with the team right now. And the point of that is I never want your performance to be a surprise. I want you to understand where I see growth and where I see opportunity. So that's when we were having the conversation that I thought to myself. When you have somebody who is so strong in the soft skills, you want to make sure that the tools aren't limiting the development of those hard skills. And you're right, it is a balancing act and one that I was so excited to have it, but then I also, as a leader, look on the other side and I'm like, it's amazing, but also wears that line. So that's something that as a leader, we'll have to navigate and I'll think through it and we'll probably have to evolve and iterate some, but it is something that I am aware of and something that I'll keep in mind. So for some of those other leaders out there, I'd love to hear how you guys are doing it, but it is something to keep on the radar. Development and skilling up is such an asset not just to the individual, but our business partners. The better we are, the more value and the greater impact we make. So stunting someone's hard skill development in something like strategic alignment or trend identification was something that I wasn't anticipating. I don't know that it does, right? So please, please keep that in mind, but it is something that I will watch because I want to be cognizant of the things that both grow and accelerate things, but maybe decelerate others. It's a lot of levers to keep your eyes on. Yeah. Is it anything that you wanted the tool to do or that you wanted to be able to do that you can't currently? A few things. It can't analyze the document itself. So it will analyze the text, but not the document. So I would really like it to do that. I'd also like it to tie into our inbox, but like I said, where Microsoft and there is a current limitation with that, I think so much information lives in inboxes because of just that transactional back and forth that tends to get lost. And so you don't have that in a repository. And some of that critical information could live in another place that I would love to have line of sight into. That isn't there yet. Like I said, based on the financials of the tool, I knew that we're going to just be inherent limitations. But I will say all of the opportunities that we've now seen through the tool, those small things don't impact the value of the tool. And I also know that there are other tools that we can use for that. So PILOT is another one, right? So that can help us bridge that gap. But then you're using multiple tools and multiple sources. So I really wanted a one-stop shop, which we all know. It's very high in the sky. And I'm sure every single BRM out there is like, oh, I've had that conversation. You can't have the moon. Well, you can. You can build it. But maintaining it is going to be another story. So just because you can doesn't mean you should. And I am very aware of where those challenges are. Well, you are all worried. Because one of the things that BRM's and Bidious Partners are good at doing is breaking down silos. You're connectors. Were you ever worried that having your own tool would kind of inadvertently draw you into becoming another silo? You've suddenly got this kind of thing that's yours. Now you've got people outside and people inside. Is that something you were worried about? And have you noticed any difference in that regard? So in regards to our team and workflow, I have not seen that. And the reason why is we can still go look in our service delivery tool and look at those operational SLAs dig through those tickets to identify trends. Now we still go into that tool, but our day to day never lived really in their tool. We used pieces and parts to make up something. And we were never really leveraging the feature and functions of some of their tools. So from a workflow perspective, I don't see that as much for our team. But what I do see is the ability to bring something to them. So one challenge is if you have a operational IT team and you're starting to want to better understand the trends across the group, it is an area that our team can now proactively bring some of that. These are the things we're hearing. Are you, does the data say the same thing? And it works as a validator, a system validator, and it helps people understand what they're looking for. Because otherwise you have to read all of the description of every single ticket in a certain bucket of tagging, right? So hardware, printer, this or whatever it is. But you're still doing quite a bit of hunting pack. And if you hunt and pack for a thing, you're focused in what you're looking for or looking to understand either validate or invalidate, it gives you direction. So I have found that it helps with that. But so in that aspect, it doesn't silo us and it does empower cross collaboration. But what I will say is we were never really leveraging their tools in the way that they leverage them. Are you able to share any of what's in motion with the executive? So you've got sharing amongst peers that they might be now access to the data they did before. But from a executive perspective, and particularly the CIO, is this given visibility to stuff that there was no visibility before? Yes, actually. Yesterday I was meeting with our city CIO and I was walking through that trend analysis with him and he was extremely excited about it. So it was something that I think as a leader, you know where you believe the trends to be, but that validation of, okay, you heard that in seven different places. Because if they mention it, someone's going to say, well, where? Who said that? Where's the problem? And this helps you have that data to inform deeper, which helps them look like more of an expert and you now magnified what he's able to do, right? So instead of being one person, he gets to harness the information of five in a single report that gives him such transparency and breadth of understanding over his business that he wouldn't have had if he didn't have that RBRM team. So that for us has been really exciting. We are still working on developing some of the dashboards. We're still very much in the infancy phase and identifying what that dashboard should look like because BRM work is not necessarily the same SLA driven KPI work that some of our peer departments are in terms of ticket management or procurement timelines, things like that. It sounds all old. I mean, it's a kind of a no brainer, especially if it's, you know, not a huge investment, but it sounds like it's some, yeah, I mean, there's really no drawback to it. So some. One for our team, which is why I wanted to tell the community about it because when you have something that financially can fit inside those budgets and it is pretty malleable, it does empower. And while I love some of those other tools on the market, some of the drawbacks in our environment were they were at the top level. So I could see it for the whole, but I didn't have the line of sight into the towers, if you will. So being able to curate that has been a huge benefit without a lot of financial overhead, which is really powerful. And especially in public sector, we learn to be creative and being able to be creative and get more than you expected is truly a gift. Yeah, and it's nice. I mean, there's always, there's always. the danger with these kind of shining new toys that, you know, elsewhere in the business, they're always kind of taking on things that kind of have great promise and don't really deliver. This sounds in this instance, they really has made a big difference to your team and will continue to make a difference and you can continue to develop it and, you know, look at the new ways of adding value and making the most of it, so it sounds pretty cool and I'm I'm, yeah, looking forward to sharing this with the rest of the community because it's just, I think a lot of the challenges that the RMS talk about, you know, there's a lot of stuff in this that kind of dress those, so this pretty exciting to me. And address it in the way that your team works. That's really the beauty that I saw and I have no partnership with Notion, I'm not selling it to anyone, so I do want to say, I just want to tell people about a way to enable what we do because often we see such a financial price tag on some of those things, which as a relatively small team and a team, a discipline out on the market that is pretty niche, it is hard to find something that really empowers at a reasonable rate. If you look at all the AI meeting note takers, right, there are a plethora of those. How many are there of VRM tools? I think I know of two specifically, two strong ones. Yeah. Some that can help you, but they're not really designed for us. So having something that you can design yourself, I think is empowering, but also be aware that when you develop while you're flying the plane, they're just going to be challenges. And I think that goes without saying, but I do want to remind people that that challenge on the front end, gotta go in, eyes wide open, understanding what you're getting into and have the buy-in of your team, and an understanding of what you're working towards. But again, as we said earlier, that challenging your thinking, questioning why you're doing things, I think that's just a good process to go through, whether you're adopting a new tool or not. I think it makes sense that every now and then you just stop and look at what you're doing, think, I pay, is this, are we doing this for the right reason, is do we need to do this? And so I think this process he'd gone through is absolutely worthwhile. But the other nice thing is this isn't just a tool for the BRMs, other people that benefit from this, you know, your management, your peers, that's the good thing, I think it's quite hard to sell if you've got a tool that's just for the BRMs, because I'm not actually using them. They're, you know, they're questioned often enough, you know, what value do you bring, and if you're now going to need your own tool as well, then really then you become more of a line item, right? Where's the cost benefit in investing in something like that? Specifically for our team, we've been really blessed to have executive sponsorship and direction, but you still have limited funds, everyone's working through the same pot, right? So having a tool that can meet your needs that doesn't put a huge financial strain on the organization is really important, but also can provide significant value. The more value we start to see out of it, the more integration opportunities I see, we can start to bring this tool in and that tool, but we didn't do that right off the bat because it didn't make sense to. And we wanted to make sure this was going to be something that really brought value to not just us as a team, but our IT department, the departments, and then the overarching enterprise as a whole. So I believe we've got a really strong use case at this point. You start to look at what are we doing next? What does that next phase look like? And I'm excited to see where this tool can take us. I'll just ask my last question. Do you think, and we've spoken about this before, when you have CIOs come and go, it's a danger often, if the BORM or the business partner capability isn't mature enough? Do you think now that you've got this tool in your arsenal that if there was going to be a change of management that having this, behind you, it's going to be much easier to demonstrate value and kind of give you some security thing? I do because it also helps them articulate their value because often a CIO has very strong vision and strategy, right? But being able to speak to how that vision and strategy is playing out and what is informing that strategy, you're creating something that empowers them and their conversation with their executive peers, right? When you are able to help them articulate why better and they are able to then ship the conversation around value and impact and the overall benefit to all, they're giving them something truly invaluable, something that they wouldn't, it would take them a long time to be able to cultivate on their own. So when you have a whether it's a new CIO or one with a long tenure, helping them articulate the vision and their impact and the value of it will always be a game changer for them because you're changing the conversation. It's less about money and more about how, what are we getting out of it? How are areas experiencing benefits and what is this changing? Often with technology, it's seen as every other utility, right? You turn on the lights, everybody has a computer, everybody has email and it's often easy to take those amenities for granted. When you're so used to them, you don't necessarily know how to articulate that. If I took your computer today, could you do your job? Yeah, absolutely not. And right, so that's what I'm saying, but often people don't even think about the fact that the computer is their daily driver. It's the same as lights. We have lights in the office. We don't think about how much those lights cost or are we going to challenge the electric company to reduce our electric spend? So if you look at it from that lens, you do give them tactical information that speaks to the value they bring to the organization and also the power of their vision, right? So it's, we may be putting money here, saying you do with our lights, but if we aren't illuminated, we can't do better. Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Thanks Megan. Yeah, I've really been great learning more about notion and how you're using it. To me, as an outsider, it seems like a no brainer. I'm looking forward to hearing what the community think about this. I'd love to know if there's any other people out there that are already using it. So I'd love to hear how they're using it. Maybe you connected with other organizations that are using it to see what they're doing. I don't know of any other organizations that are using it. I know that there are people leveraging the tool to do certain things, financial, tracking or project management, but not necessarily have I heard of a BRM tool for BRM teams using this tool, which is another reason why I wanted to share the information. Information is only as good as it shared and for more, we can all benefit and learn from one another. I want to do anything I can to continue to empower our community and our discipline because we do really powerful work and often it's the unseen work. A business is doing really well. We celebrate that team, right? If a project went well, we're celebrating the project team, but we tend to lose side of the BRM and their role in those pieces while we're celebrating those other two teams. So this is a way for you to celebrate what you bring to the table and the work you specifically own in control, not only the work you enable and empower. No, it's great. I hope this in a way kind of becomes a case study for people that they can learn from what you've done, how you've done it. I'm looking forward to hearing from the CIOs as well. Absolutely. Looking forward to it. Thank you so much Mark for having me and I hope that the community finds value and even if just one person looks and explores it and it can make one thing better, share it with me. Exactly, yeah, I agree. But thanks so much Meg and I've enjoyed our conversation again. I'm looking forward to talking to you again. All right, thank you Mark. Have a great day. Thanks for watching, bye bye.