ISTP Personality Type Interview (with Klaus Schepers) - 0422

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome back to the Personality Hacker podcast. My name is Joe Mark Whit. - And I'm Antonia Dodge. - In a moment, we're gonna jump into an interview with Klaus who identifies as an ISTP personality type. A few things to keep in mind before we get started. First, we may use some shorthand and technical language in this interview. So if you wanna download a handy guide that will help you visually follow along what we're talking about, visit PersonalityHacker.com and find that PDF directly below this episode. Second, I just wanna draw attention to the fact that Klaus has been through our profiler training program. He knows himself and he knows personality type very well. So with this in mind, we wanna encourage you to look past stereotypes you may have for the ISTP personality type. We wanna look at what it's really like to live as an ISTP as we talked to Klaus today. If you're brand new to type, I stands for introvert, S stands for sensor, T stands for thinker, P stands for perceiver. These four letters are called dichotomies and they're what most people know about personality type. But the true power of this system comes from understanding personality on a much deeper level. These are called cognitive functions. And in this interview, we're gonna dive into these deeper waters. To get an overview of the ISTP cognitive functions, search our podcast titled ISTP personality type advice. The cognitive functions can be a bit technical at times. So we recommend downloading that handy ISTP guide. You'll find directly below this episode. Just head over to personalityhacker.com and you can download the PDF there. This week we have a special guest on the program, Klaus Shepers, Klaus Welcome to personality hacker. - Yeah, thanks for having me. - So we invited you to come on Klaus because in the Myers-Briggs system, you identify as an ISTP. And we thought it would be really great to talk to you today about what it's really like to be an ISTP. Not just the theory of it, but what is your life like? Maybe your growth journey, what you've understood about type? Because, well, I wanna spoil it. I'll ask you, tell us what we need to know about Klaus. And I'm sure it's gonna involve a little bit about personality hacker too. - Yeah, hello everyone. My name is Klaus. I am a digital nomad. So I travel around the world and I don't have a base anymore. So I am normally in a different place every three to four weeks. And yeah, professionally, I also work for personality hacker as a personality type consultant. And yeah, this work has greatly benefited me and my personal growth. I'm glad you said something about personal growth because we do wanna talk a little bit about growth today. You know, maybe some strategies you've employed as an ISTP to grow in your own life. And I just wanna, again, highlight the fact that you do work with us here at personality hacker, you're one of our type consultants. You've been through a profile training program in our advanced program. You've been accredited. And so you know your stuff in type Klaus. And we think that as an ISTP, you're a great representative of that type, being able to talk about your personal journey, but also have the language to talk about it, you know, with great insight. - So Klaus, tell us a little bit about your journey in discovering type and then discovering your best fit type of ISTP. - Yeah, so for a long time, I was actually a different type. I thought I was an INTJ. And yeah, whenever I worked on my co-pilot of TE, something was off. And when I started working on my SE as an ISTP, things really started to change. And for me, the most powerful thing really is looking at your co-pilot. And for me, that is like with extroverted sensing, whenever I get really focused into the present moment and take in reality as it is, that's where the powerful things happen for me. I think it's always about the middle functions. And when I go for my introverted thinking to introverted intuition, what happens is normally, I get like I go into these dream worlds. Like I'm in my head, I'm in my thinking a lot. And then I project things into the future. And what happened for me a lot, understanding that dynamic is, I basically got lost in the future and forgot about the world out there. And when I realized this and decided to become a world traveler, things really shifted for me. - When you are identifying as an INTJ, do you think that's the reason why? Because you were so in your 10 year old or tertiary of introverted intuition, that perspectives process, your over identification with that is that why you think you came out when you tested and you reflected on yourself? - Yes, definitely. I think, yeah, that happens for a lot of people that they think they are their 10 year old. And that was definitely the case for me. I thought I was this person living in the future and like being really in tune with how other people think and how other people see the world. And yeah, realizing that that is not one of my strengths was really a game changer. Like to understand that I'm not my 10 year old, I'm actually, my strengths are in different places. Actually, when I go out into the world and take in reality, that's one of my strengths. I notice what is happening. And I'm also like a lot of my interests are about real world things. Like I'm really into sports. I'm currently in Miami and I already went to 10 basketball matches and it's really nice to just take in all kinds of things, sports events, cultural events, everything that happens in reality. - Can you, when you mentioned that you feel like when you were more in that 10 year old or tertiary space of introverted intuition or perspectives, you said you got lost in the future. Can you flesh that out a little bit? - Yeah, so what happens, especially for the dynamic with the middle functions, it's really like, I'm bypassing whatever is in front of me and I go into some future play. So for example, in my 20s at parties, I would spend a lot of time in my head instead of actually interacting with people. I also got lost in some, yeah, in my 20s, there were a few love stories that weren't really real. It was long distance, I got really lost in the potential of the relationship instead of actually doing things to make it work in reality. - So almost like a fantasy of what could be? - Exactly, yes, yes, it was, yeah, it was really like, I actually called those fantasy loves. I was really like, and it might sound a little too negative, but I think I was a little deluded. And I think that is what can happen. I mean, my thought worked a lot and then I'm, it's really a dream world and it's not happening in reality. And like realizing that dynamic was so helpful. Like, there's a few things I just told myself I have to do. I have to focus on becoming present. And I actually notice it whenever I become impatient, I notice how I'm going into my and I. I want to make things happen that can't happen right now. And then I go into this future place of these things already having happened. And whenever I just focus on what is happening in the present moment, there's nothing that really can bug me anymore. It's like that kind of presence is really powerful to me. And getting into different, so for about a year now, I'm doing a meditation practice called circling, which is basically a meditation with people. And what that does is like, it helps me to really become present and then also accessing my extroverted feeling. It's almost like I can use the co-pilot to access my three-year-old. So I get into this present world with people. And then, yeah, then strange things happen. I actually, it becomes much more natural for me to also to care about people in a different way, accessing my extroverted feeling. Yeah, that's really powerful. Yeah, it just helped me greatly. - So what I hear you saying is there's this narrative in your life, this story you had where in your 20s, maybe before that, you're living in your head a lot. You're finding patterns in the world. You're living in those abstractions and these possibilities, these fantasy worlds, whether it's love interest or things you want to do in the world. And in recent years, you went, wait a minute. I'm an ISTP. I need to be much more grounded. I need to be present to the reality of things. You got into your co-pilot of extroverted sensing or sensation away from that 10-year-old of perspectives. And you said, not only did it make you present and you started to come alive, but this gave you access to the part of you that's that three-year-old or that inferior of extroverted feeling or harmony. And now, not only are you more present and feeling better about things, you're also connected to other people more, which is really powerful for an ISTP, I'm guessing. - Yes, yes. And as you were talking, I realized it's also the other way around. When I focus on people, I can also enter the present moment. So it's not only by accessing the co-pilot, I can access the three-year-old. It's also the other way around. By just focusing on how other people feel and how they are in the moment, I can also access that presence that I feel like as an ISTP, I need so much. I think everyone needs it to some degree, but I think for certain types, especially SE and I in the middle, I think, yeah, there's something happening that is hard to put into words. It feels transformational. to fully embrace that kind of presence. It's like all of the worries are stripped away. I don't access introverted intuition anymore from a place of like this fantasy. I still use it but I use it after I get into reality and extroverted sensing. Like it's, I almost, it's now in the right order of things. What does it look like when you access your introverted intuition or perspectives after you've accessed that presence of your extroverted sensing? It's like all my decisions are based more in reality. Like I take in whatever is happening and then I plan about how to go about it. It's like actually planning for things in reality instead of planning for them in my head and then going to reality. So then when you use your intuitive process you were using it like in more of a futurist way. You were using it to like sort of plan for things and predict outcomes. Did you also find it to be something you went to when you were trying to, well I guess you did say that earlier that you were trying to figure out how people thought and you thought it was a strength of yours to get inside other people's minds. Yes and it's like as you were talking I realized like it's really imagining things that are not there. Like if I go to my introverted intuition first I'm imagining things and sometimes I will still be correct but if I go through how things actually are before I imagine how things could be then that's really the game changer in that dynamic. And I would imagine that a lot of what you were using was also you know to get inside other people's minds was actually your introverted thinking or your accuracy driver. Yes yes I think yeah that's like the introverted thinking and introverted intuition working together a lot. When I when I use SE then my TI gets better. When I use NI or when I use SE first it's actually my my thought process is fed with real data instead of made up data that I don't have proof for. Has this impacted you professionally as you do profiling consultations? You're on the team here at Persona Hacker and you're sitting down with people want to want to resume or in person and you're professionally helping them arrive at a best fit type. How has that experience changed? As you tap more into that extroverted sensing or sensation process I'm guessing you're still using your perspectives but are you noticing more of their body language in detail now? Are you paying more attention to their words or are you still abstracting things like what's that process look like for you? Yeah that's a great question. It has helped me so much in profiling I think. Like I feel like when I embrace that kind of presence there's almost nothing anymore that can like derail me. Like when I'm when I'm fully in that kind of presence I'm really with the other person and I think the the profile is also noticed that it's almost like I'm not planning anymore what to ask next. I'm going with whatever they say and try to go deeper based on what they say and it's like and you would have to ask profile is about this but I've heard feedback like that it's like that there's much more freedom in the conversation and it's much less like planned and yeah and for me personally it has helped me greatly to not plan as much and worry about how the conversation is going. The conversation is just going as it's going and I'm there with the other person and I feel like the information I get based on that is so much better than just firing away question after question. It's like truly being with them and all the worry I have about what is happening is stripped away from that. It's like I'm really just there grounded in reality instead of worrying about all these things that could go wrong or all these things that like is this question fine all these questions vanish when I'm really in that present extroverted sensing state. So there's a there's a like a self-consciousness that you experience when you're when you're not present when you're when you're when you're in your introverted intuition or that perspectives part there's probably like a bunch of anxiety about how is this other person actually thinking or what's going on for them or like a sense of uncertainty and a little bit of anxiety but when you find yourself in that space of presence what I'm hearing you say is that you're not worried about any of that stuff you're just with the other person and so you don't have to wonder what's going on in their head because they're probably more forthcoming. Yes exactly like and I would still check with them if I have like an intuition but it's it's so much more accurate when I'm first focusing on what is happening for them. As you were talking about this anxiety it's it's even or it was even stronger in social settings like I really felt like everyone was watching me whenever I would go outside and I would think like oh this person doesn't like me or oh look what did I do wrong here and yeah when I get when when I go into that place obviously the worry is coming in quickly but instead when I'm just rounded in what is actually happening I don't make up all those stories anymore it's like I'm looking at what is happening and sometimes there still might be these things happening that I should should actually worry about but it's it's much less than it's like yeah that it's it's much there's much more ease around it and much more groundedness. Whenever I think of a combination of introverted thinking or accuracy with extroverted sensing or sensation I can't help but think of somebody who's like really good with I mean and this is this is like a almost illustrative but like really good with tools so to speak like somebody who's really good at navigating their environment very adept at making you know having quick reflexes and being really good with whatever tools they're working with but I know that that's an over simplification in my mind so as somebody who possesses these functions and particularly as somebody who's been developing them what do you really think is the superpower of those two functions together that driver and that copilot. I think there's there's something about yeah it's I want to go away from the stereotypes of being good with tools I'm not very good with tools I would struggle changing a tire at a car and but there's something and I thought about this before like there's something about like having that ti at the top it makes you really independent and it makes you really think things through for yourself and I think when it is paired with extroverted sensing in a healthy way you actually take in reality as it is and then you you have this independent thinking that is really like I feel like the superpower is not being able to be pushed around like I will decide what is right for me like what what feels true but also what what I think is the right thing to do and I feel like ever since I did that I mean I had yeah maybe we can talk about like worldview shifts I had a few worldview shifts when I got fully into my SC in the way societies organized yeah yeah I would love to go down that that rabbit's trail if you're if you're game well we're some of your worldview shifts about how society is formed yeah I mean the first thing that comes to mind is like my attitude towards feminism like that shift it's significantly as I looked at what is actually happening in the world and I'm now becoming a little self-conscious about I don't want to go down the political route but yeah it's yeah maybe not well here's the deal this happens that our profile training events you ask an introverted thinking user an accuracy user hey tells about your worldview some things that have shifted and they start talking and I'll send fights break out it's because it's because you don't like it's indicative of the type you don't pull punches you talk about the truth that is your truth how you see things and you're not sitting there worrying like how will this necessarily be received in society I mean you might worry about that and just not say anything but once you start talking you share your actual truth and I think that's that's a superpower but what crosses you also or what supports you can also cross you in a way yes and that dynamic is like I feel like with the middle functions you can work a lot on that but I noticed just as I was talking like there's there's something with like the FE as a three-year-old it's almost like a high-pot caution that I I think people with an introverted thinking and extroverted feeling in the middle of the cast don't have I think that's because like and I can't access this consciously but when I was younger I probably offended people by just speaking my truth and then there's like a much more caution around whatever I will say yeah I almost want to call it hyper cautiousness around whatever could offend other people because there's not this balance with my three-year-old that I track I track what society likes or values but it's still there's there's something like I stop myself in certain contexts like I first have to be sure I'm safe like one-on-one but like on the podcast that is obviously much different yeah no and you never know who's gonna who's gonna be listening what's nice is that you mentioned a specific topic but then you didn't at all indicate what direction you've gone on it so it's it's perfectly ambiguous so and that's and that's not a bad place to be that said I wouldn't mind actually talking a little bit about the phenomena of somebody leading with that function of introverted thinking or accuracy I mean as somebody who has it as a co-pilot or auxiliary function myself I know how how much trouble it can get you into when you start talking about what really means something to you. And as you mentioned, when you have extroverted feeling or harmony, which is tapped into kind of like the social ecosystem and the fabric of what's going on, and you know, that whole phrase of like reading a room or whatever, there's a hyper vigilance and not wanting to necessarily send something that's offensive. How do you, I mean, I guess the question is how do you survive? And somebody who's leading with introverted thinking your accuracy, which is meant to hone your skills, sharpen how you think, accept reality as it is and not in a flowery way, and then express that's like the desire to communicate and express your thoughts, and having to navigate through a world that can be quite sensitive. How do you survive that experience? Yeah, as you were talking the first thing that came up was the internet, like it's so helpful to get reality and like different perspectives with the internet, and then also having like friends you can actually share everything with. And that's mostly one on one because groups tend to, and now I will sound like extroverted feeling, bashing maybe, like groups tend to focus on the consensus, and the consensus is rarely what I think is true. It's actually the consensus is going against the truth because you have to actually find like a middle ground in a group, and I'm also, I'm aware that that sometimes is needed, but it's actually for someone driving with introverted thinking, it can be difficult to find the balance. What comes to mind as well is I've lost a lot of friends in recent years. I studied journalism and it's quite a left-leaning field. And as I was like shifting politically, a lot of people just wouldn't want to engage with me anymore. And it's actually hard to admit, but there is some pain in that for me. And questioning, was that even really a friendship if someone is leaving as soon as I change my mind on something? Is that really a friendship or is it real friendship something where I can be me, and you can be you and we accept that we can change our minds? Well, that's something that people have a struggle with, I think in general. I don't think just introverted thinking primary users have that struggle. I would also like to ask you, I'm guessing I'm going to project something out, Cloud said, I'm not sure is happening, but I'm going to pick up a pattern and project this onto you. And you tell me if I'm right about this. There's been people that have been turned off by some of maybe the ways you've recalibrated your thoughts and the way you think about stuff. And first of all, by the way, I'm guessing you're always refining these. It's never a, you never get static, you're always looking at your thoughts and recalibrating. Is it am I right on that? Yes. Yeah. So it's not a static thing. So you have people that are tuned out from you, but then I bet there's another class of people who are quote unquote trying to be helpful. They're trying to educate you into the right way to think about things. I'm guessing society can sense as people or other things like that. And they're genuinely, they're coming in, they're like, "Claus, you just don't have the right view on this. Let me sit down and explain to you why you need to change your mind about this. I'm going to help you, Claus, come to the right view on something. I'm guessing you have that experience too. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. And that sometimes can be eye-opening and sometimes it can be frustrating. And as you were talking, I also realized I've actually met a lot of people because I was more open in like sharing my introverted thinking more. So I also found new people. I've lost friends, but I also found new friends in the process. So it's always a, as you were saying, things are shifting all the time. And it's always a work and progress. Like the truth is never done. Do you mention a couple of things that spark things for me? So I'm going to mention maybe one or two of them. And hopefully that I communicate them clearly. But it's interesting when you said, you know, talking about consensus and finding consensus. And you're like, I don't mean to F e bash. But I think a lot of people who use extroverted feeling or harmony go, no, that's what we're trying to find. We're trying to find the consensus. Like that's not bashing to them because that's honestly how that function. Yeah, that's the goal. But when something is your inferior or three-year-old function, just describing it sometimes feels so different from, you know, like so antithetical to the way that we show up. You know, like a really good description of introverted sensing is something that I'm like, well, I'm trying not to insult anybody by talking about, you know, introverted sensing. And there's like, no, that's that's okay. That's how I work. It's not an insult. I'm like, oh, that's right. I guess it's not. But the reason why I mentioned that is there's a very clear place for extroverted feeling or harmony in the social matrix. I mean, one could argue in part, it is the social matrix. And so seeing its place in the world is fairly obvious, I think, from outside observers. I think it's a very clear place for me to think about it. It makes me think of that old biblical saying that Jesus said, I came to divide people as with a sword. And I always think of introverted thinking or accuracy is kind of like of that style. It's not here to bring people together. It's here to divide the consensus with a sword. It's not here to cuddle. Yeah. But at the same time, it's connected to that extroverted feeling or harmony part as well. You know, it's your three-year-old or inferior. It's still a big part of connecting with other people is important and valuable to you. So as somebody who leads with this, and particularly somebody who pairs it with a sensing function, not an abstraction, not like theoretical, but grounded in reality, from your perspective, why do you think this is such an important function to have? You talked about refining your thoughts, and that's important. But why do you think that this is something that comes to, from the outside world, appears to come to divide? Why do you think that this needs to be expressed? I think it's very important to actually update whatever we have as a consensus. When I think about, if I imagine a world of pure extroverted feeling, what would happen is no one would be there to speak anymore. No one would dare to speak their personal truths. And we actually need those personal truths to actually update the consensus. And I don't want to go into controversial topics. It's happening again. And I don't have to explicitly name them. But sometimes we actually need to hear the voices that are disagreeing with something. And when there's an over-focused on consensus, we can't even hear those voices anymore. And as you were talking, I imagined all the TIs sitting in their rooms having these subjective views and not sharing them. Extroverted feeling is my three-year-old. I don't want to have all these culture wars and public quarrels. But it's also sometimes needed to actually update those consensus. Yeah. So what I hear you saying, almost the metaphor of a software update for society. Society's going through on an operating system of extroverted feeling how we relate to each other. And then from time to time, that gets stale and old and there's things that need to be recalculated. And so we update those through new truths. And I think somebody right now would probably argue, well, that's what's happening in the world. That's what's happening on the social scene is there's a lot of things breaking through. And what I would argue is there's probably a lot of people trying to update the social software from a bunch of different angles. That's why we get so much conflict. And then you can see extroverted feeling trying to shut it all down. Like, well, let's just go back to consensus. Let's not fight about all this. But there needs to be that conflict to get to the resolution for the update. So I think that's something you, I think you articulate beautifully, Klaus, in that introverted thinking brings those personal truths that give us an opportunity to update. And I mean, that's what a great way to put it. Yes. And like, I'm acknowledging like that's my personal truth. That's, and I think that is my introverted thinking in the driver position. I'm very accepting of other people's views, I think. I mean, I still think some of them are really dumb, but I still think everyone is entitled to them. Like everyone can have their stupid little opinion. And I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't mean it. Like in, in a way of like, I don't want to dismiss it. And I don't know if that is actually like true for all the items, but I'm, I actually want to hear if you disagree with me. I'm really interested if you think what I think is stupid or like should be out of the update it. I'm really open to hearing it. I'm, I'm still quite tentative in changing my mind because I feel like I'm, I'm thinking about things deeply and it takes a while for me to update that personally, but I'm very interested in hearing that. And that's maybe the problem I see with too much consensus. It's like a lot of people don't even want to hear those dissenting voices anymore. And like my approach is more like, no, bring it in. A lot of that is probably not workable, but I want to hear everything. And then make sense of it, which is then again, like paired with extroverted sensing. I want to take in everything in reality. And only then do I want to decide what to do with that knowledge. What I hear you saying is that part of what introverted thinking or accuracy does for the world isn't to just deliver truths, but it's to also make a space for other people to share their opinions about what truth could be. Yes. I'm seeking that out more at the stage, like I also want to almost amplify dissenting voices. Yeah, just let people know. Yeah, I also see what you're seeing because I feel like, as I already talked about, that's actually, as a here, what I just realized is like there can be a danger. It can become if you're not cautious as a personal leading with introverted thinking, it can become quite lonely. If you don't share your views anymore out of fear, or if you, yeah, if you, if you don't speak to what is your personal truth, then it gets also more difficult to, to know and it's also more difficult to update it. Like I'm sure there's some of my views that are wrong. Everyone has some views that are not based in reality fully. Then it's good to actually talk about it, but because then you realize some pushback you get on your thinking is actually valid and you should take it in and update it. And if you don't share it anymore, it can become like, it's almost like a self-referencing of sorts. And then you, yeah, you, you convince yourself you're right about things, which is I think can be one danger for people leading with introverted thinking that you just think the world is stupid and everything. You are like your thoughts are what is ultimately true. And that's not true. Like introverted thinking is a subjective function and it's just my personal truth. And if I share that enough, I will also get feedback and can update it properly. Well, and that's part of the fantasy that going to extroverted sensing or sensation helps tackle. Like if you just stay in your introverted space, right? Like you talked about earlier in our conversation, going to introverted intuition and being sort of in this fantasy about the future. And I suspect also the fantasy was like, and I'm also seeing all the angles. And I'm always right. And when you get into that co-pilot, it forces you out into a world of experience that, you know, it just abuses you of the notion that you, you had it all figured out internally before you, you know, before you actually experienced that or had the lived experience. Yes. And as you were talking, I realized how important for me traveling has become. That's taking in the real world and seeing it's almost like taking in different sensory perspectives. I have. So I have in the last four years, I've gathered a lot of perspectives of actual sensory stuff like cities, but I've also made a lot of different people. And it's like really letting that reality fully in. That has changed my life and like benefited me so much in just opening up to the world. And I think that's two for all introverts, like whatever the extroverted co-pilot is. Just focus on that and let that in and then slowly you're growing. You were telling me a funny story. We saw each other out. Most recent profile training event because you were there. You were telling me that you were in the United States traveling around and you, I guess you got to somewhere in rural Alabama or at least no, I think mobile Alabama or something. You were like, I didn't, I didn't know like there weren't ubers and extra like things in this area. So I just ended up like kind of hanging out in Alabama trying to, as a German dude, just trying to figure it out. Like not sure the culture of the experience, but you, you were telling me you learned a lot through that. And that was a really cool experience you had because of it. Yeah. I really like randomness. Like sometimes I, it's not even that important where I'm going, which, which is, it sounds like quite extroverted sensing. It's not that important. What the future is. It's not important what the next city I'm going to is. It's just a new experience and new experiences as an introvert. That's, I think always like beneficial in my life. What I hear you saying too, and you mentioned this earlier that your extroverted sensing or sensation helps you connect with the harmony part of you extroverted feeling and vice versa. I'm getting the sense that, you know, as an ISTP, of course, you're not going to represent every ISTP, but it is nice hearing somebody who has gone through, you know, somebody of this, this best fit type that's gone through sort of this, aha, this really big sort of come to Jesus about how important it is to get out into the world and experience. And what I hear you saying is that, um, or at least when I think of extroverted sensing or sensation, I now think of the phrase, the two phrases, one is effortless flow and the other one is max aliveness. And it sounds to me like when you allow yourself to be in the space of effortless flow, where you're not too worried about how things are going to pan out or the implications or planning everything or, you know, what their future will hold. If you just hand yourself over to the experience, what ends up happening is you, you just naturally navigate to a place of sharing experiences with other people, being able to connect on a one to one level, feeling so much more permission to communicate your honest and authentic thoughts. And it makes this really nice soil for relationships to grow and connection to grow. My suspicion is that the more you've developed this part of you, the less lonely you feel all the time. Yes. Yes. I mean, I've never felt lonely too much in my life. I just like my own company. Still even though I'm working a lot on these these outer parts, it's like sitting by myself in the room is still very fulfilling to me. But it's like the growth doesn't happen when I sit by myself in a room. The growth happens like, for example, when you said effortless flow, it feels like this conversation feels like effortless flow to me by now. I'm just, it's like I've accessed that part that just shares what's coming up. A few times I said, as you were speaking, what happened to me, there's like this perceiveriness, like I'm just going with the flow. And when I imagine like if this conversation happened three years ago, I would worry so much, over is that the right thing to say. And it still happens like when I stop myself talking about certain social issues, but it's like I feel much more like that free flowing. I take whatever is happening in the moment. And that's actually one of my strengths. I can roll with things that are happening in the present moment. And like back in the days when I thought I was an INTJ, I over identified with that and I part of me that thought I am not good at sensory stuff coming at me. And like that, that's really like what shifted everything for me to realize. No, that's actually one of my strengths. Like whatever is coming up, it's like, like just speaking now, I'm looking forward to whatever you're going to say next. And in the old mindset, I would, there would be more the place of worry of like, Oh, what would the next question be? Can I prepare for that? Obviously, that's important too, but it's, it's more like just flowing with whatever is happening. You know, two things have come up for me. First thing is that you also, it seems like you give yourself permission to go, you know, I started talking about a thing, but I think I'm not going to talk about that. Like to sense yourself in real time as opposed to try to pre-censor. Yes. And also giving myself permission to whatever is coming up for me right now is probably related to what you were saying. Yeah. And then the second thing is one of the ways I have come to, you know, when I, when I'm in a profiling session and I'm talking to somebody who I suspect might be an ISP, one of the things that tips their hand or has in the past is that they have a really hard time expressing themselves, like a particularly when I ask about how they're operating, how they think, what's going on for them. It's really difficult for them to express themselves. And since I've been around you since you've really flourished in this extroverted sensing or since sensation place, I have not experienced that phenomenon from you. Like you said, you're just letting your, it's almost like you're channeling or something. You're like, I'm just going to talk. I'm just going to, I'm very curious about what's going to come next and I'm just going to allow myself to authentically express, which I find to be a surprising, but really awesome benefit of developing this function that you're not so in your introverted intuition or perspectives where you're like worried that the thing you say is going to perfectly encapsulate or represent you. You're just really, you're just like, I'm just going to talk. And then, and then as I go, I'm like, oh, maybe not that. Oh, yeah, definitely that. Okay, let's see what happens next. And, and so what's ended up happening, at least for my observation is that you've become one of the most just expressive ISPs that I know. And it's fascinating that leaning into your extroverted sensing or sensation has helped facilitate that. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I feel seen when you say that, like it's, it's really, yeah, I have to take it in first. And that's also like, that's also the extroverted sensing, like letting it fully in. And like, yeah, the way there's, there's a freedom in the way I'm expressing myself these days, like it's still, there's still, yeah, no, I don't even want to go into the direction of there's still like, sometimes I become nervous and everyone does. But it's like there's extroverted sensing has really let loose some of the inhibited parts. And that's probably also linked to like the TINI dynamic. Like I felt for most part, for large parts of my life, like it's a really inhibited person. And I still have those aspects in certain social settings. But I feel like there's, I, I've let go of some of the, yeah, I don't know what it is. Like the worries of being perceived in a certain way. Yeah, a lot of that is linked to the tertiary and I, like feeling like someone is watching you feeling like you're being perceived in this way and like realizing that's, that's not in my control. I'm imagining things most of the time and just getting grounded in what I'm taking in in reality. It's really like that was the game changer. How does your introverted thinking work for you? Are you having conversations in your head? Like are you talking with yourself to refine ideas? Are you going for like walk? and you're just letting ideas bubble up out of your perspectives and then you're working on them and you're Interverted thinking like what does it actually look like inside of classes head? Is you're working out an idea or a thought pattern or trying to make distinctions about something? Yeah, that's where we get to the place where Antonia said it's very hard to explain. It's it's almost nonverbal The question that came up is what about this what about that like there's also like shifting the perspectives What if this was true what if that was to but a lot of it is also nonverbal for me like I feel like my best thinking happens when I'm not Thinking about things but I'm still thinking about them in like the back of my mind like music is very helpful for me to Not only process emotions, but also process thoughts and then there's still what is described a lot to people with And I in the front of their car. It's like there is a harm moments where out of nowhere I would get these insights So if the lifestyle of the eye that the the stereotype of ISTPs Oftentimes metaphorically given this name of mechanic Well, whether or not they're like literal mechanics or if it really is a metaphor of the way the ISTP mind works Can you talk a little bit about like you're in a really good space? You are doing tons of growth work in your auxiliary co-pilot function and your lifestyle is very open Can you talk about some ways in what you do identify a little bit with those stereotypes and ways in which you don't at all and in fact You think that the stereotypes around being ISTPs might be dead wrong. Yeah, I feel like the the first thing that came to mind is like this And I'm not sure I can like there's a certain bad ass area about it like I do what I want and As I got into the extroverted sensing it's it has helped me to actually embrace that more fully and like in a more felt sense instead of just Being in this thought world that a lot of almost T.I. Dom's are in Yeah, the most inaccurate thing for me about ISTPs is Being good with tools being good when you was you talked about the mechanics of things and I was going to that place of the mechanics of thought I feel like I'm well versed and Yeah in that but I feel like I still struggle with certain sensory things like fixing Fixing things or yeah, like I already talked about like I do not understand how a car works and That's probably where for ISTPs, but I'm more interested in the intuitive Conversations and things happening there, but that is also not my biggest strength my biggest strengths are still in the sensory world and Realizing that was really like what changed it all and what I do resonate with a lot is like Especially the perceiver aspects of like being able to respond to what is happening to me. I'm Very calm about I think in the four years I've traveled. I don't have many stories where Crazy things happen to me and I think that's also because some of the things I just I was able to deal with like if a Flight gets cancelled. It's not a big deal. I will spend the day wherever I am at and then I'll take a flight the next day Yeah, and I went when I think back at how when I started there was much more I was much more freaked out by those Like sudden shifts where someone was not doing what they're supposed to do and that's not happening anymore like it It's very difficult now for me. I think to get really startled by someone Not doing their job or like a flight getting cancelled or And it's like it everything will be fine like in the present moment everything is fine And then I can go from there. I think there's a lot of ISTPs in Myers-Briggs communities that are mistyped as Intuitives because of the thing you just mentioned which is You don't identify with being that great with tools my suspicion. I suspect this I don't know this to be true But my suspicion is if you decided that you were really interested in it you probably take to it easy But your life experiences haven't led you to that place and so Regardless of whether or not you would have a talent for it You don't have interest and skill developed and so because of that you're not going to identify with that part of those descriptions And you're just naturally more interested in things that would be maybe consider traditionally intuitive things When really it sounds like you're not you're not engaging with those things in an intuitive way necessarily you Build better skill around understanding thoughts and understanding how people's minds are wired You do that better when you you know you embraced your sensory skills And so I find that to be really interesting that you're an example of somebody who It makes sense that you would have identified as an INTJ Even though you're still interested in all the same stuff you were before But it's actually the sensory processes that when you lean into them Amp that up and make that much better and so I suspect that there's probably a lot of people in the type community like you That are either mistyped or still really struggling to figure out their type Yes, and as you were talking I realized like if you work on If you enter personal growth and work on your type if there's no personal growth it's probably not your type when I started Traveling as an INTJ thinking I was working on my three-year-old of a Z And also my co-pilot of TE it wasn't as growth-inducing like the true growth happened once I really found my Best-fit type and like all the feelings of like resting into That's very true, but also it's also looking like in longer time frames like work on The things you're supposed to work on based on your type for a year and see what happens and if nothing happens You might want to look into other types That's one advertisement for why growth and type understanding are are really Married to each other. I mean we you don't have to a person doesn't have to use personal you know that use type Understanding an awareness for a personal growth but when a person marries those two things together Like you said, it can be a way of diagnosing whether or not you do have an accurate best-fit type is because there's like certain growth paths for each type And if it's doing nothing for you then you're probably on the wrong path Yes, and also I think type is a shortcut. It's there's so many growth tools in the world, but I feel like A lot of them are like a hammer. It's like telling everyone to do the same thing And there's a place for that as well There's an individual component to type that Helps you bypass a lot of the advice that you get that is like more of the hammer method like There's certainly people who Tony Robbins's courses are good for and then there's people Where that's where that's probably not the best way to go about things and type helps you individualize the this kind of personal growth and bypass all the crap I like that you mentioned that as one of the things that you identify with as as an ISTP And with sort of maybe some of the stereotypes is Being cool under pressure and what I heard from you is that you just don't dramatize your life Like you don't have a bunch of stories of all your travels because if it was something that maybe somebody else would have dramatized you and turning into a story You just shrug and you just handle it I love that growth and development has gotten you to that place where the best parts of your type are now manifest Which is that ability to just remain cool under pressure and And as you mentioned that it's a shortcut because You wouldn't have necessarily been able to get there Without your best fit type as an INTJ it sounds like life was more dramatic When you thought you were a different type and part of finding landing on your best fit type as ISTP is that the drama went away Yes, which is also what came to mind there is To hold type loosely like I feel like Especially at the beginning I over identified with INTJ I mean there's still growth happening, but it's also if you become to attached To a certain type even if you're correct one. It's still like hold it loosely Before we complete I mean you're you've been so helpful in diving each into each of these functions Usually we talk a little bit more about your life experiences, but man you just done such a beautiful deep dive I would love to get your impression of how you use extroverted feeling or harmony as your three-year-old or inferior How you've integrated it like sometimes it's called our aspiration Which is you know like the the goals we have in life are oftentimes associated with this part of who we are It doesn't necessarily have to be yours, but what kind of relationship have you built with it and what are what are ways that you integrate this process into your life So the the first thing that comes up is Circling I am working to become a facilitator and actually I feel like it's this safe container for me to To share my emotions and also to share care for other people And I don't know if I need that safe container, but it feels so empowering like when everyone is Focused on their own presence. It almost feels Easier to get into this effortless flow that we were talking about Yeah, then also we haven't even talked about relationships and how to use type in relationships and how it has also benefited me in understanding myself and others in relationships Yeah, using it in relationships it has also shifted like acknowledging my three year old of harmony and like I do want everyone to get along. Even though I'm quite a detached person, there is a part of me that there's something happening in my nervous system when there's conflict and I don't want that to be conflict. I would love, yeah, I get reminded of a sentence I said before, like I never get offended by the content, I only get offended when people don't treat each other with respect and I feel like there's almost no truth that can't be uttered. It's like you just have to find a way to say it in a respectful manner and then it's like you can almost communicate anything. That's perfect. I love that you mentioned there's something that happens in your nervous system when you're around conflict and I think that that's something everybody who has extroverted feeling or harmony. I mean, I have it as my 10 year old detergier function and I know exactly what you're talking about. It's like it strikes us on a visceral level when there's conflict around us. Part of how you've integrated the extroverted feeling or harmony elements beyond pursuing things like circling, which sounds awesome, by the way, beyond being a facilitator of that or really understanding the importance of that. Another piece of it is when you hold space for people's ideas with introverted thinking or accuracy, when you allow them to say whatever a thought that they want it, that they need to communicate, that's part of how you're showing them connection and acceptance with that extroverted feeling part of you. Yeah, I don't know why, but I feel like I can hold I'm good at holding that kind of space. I see the dynamic that you create and you know, you said we didn't even talk about relationships and how it's benefited, but I would love to tap in like how has understanding type and understanding your best fit type in particular really helped with relationships with you. Yeah, it has helped a lot in handling conflict. Like I remember one of in one of my past relationships, the other person said, well, if I didn't understand your type, I would be offended now. There's like, especially when both people are into typology, there's like this mutual understanding and this like a navigating of conflict is like it's so much easier to navigate it and to yet to understand the other person better, but also help the other person understand your point of view. And I feel like type is so helpful in giving us language for that. I can't think of anything else that is as powerful in helping us bridge that gap of communicating, which is especially important to me, like expressing myself sometimes can be difficult, especially in the emotional realm and then having like this bridge of type to to get through that. Clouds as we begin to wrap up the podcast today, what would you say to the 15 year old clouds, like the version of you that's younger, that's getting ready to, you know, go on, past high school into the world, what would you have wanted to know if an older you could have come and given you advice at the age of 15. The first thing that comes to mind is like really focus on your environment and like get into presence, like really focus on reality and take in everything as it is. And just even there's a slowing down in that as well, even for introverts, like really taking everything in instead of making up stories about what is happening. Clouds, thank you so much for being a personality hacker today. We really appreciated hearing from you about how your mind is wired and some of the growth that you've been through. Yeah, thanks so much was fun to talk and express myself. So what do you think you've been listening along? You're the fourth person in this conversation between me, Clouds and Antonio, but you have not had a mic yet. Well, we can't give you a mic because the recording is already done now, but you can come over and make your voice heard at personalityhacker.com directly below this episode. Feel free to leave a comment, ask a question or more importantly, share your personal story. What's coming up for you? We talk with Clouds, maybe you're an ISTP on your own growth journey. You figured some things out. Maybe you're just starting on your journey. You've got questions or maybe you have an ISTP in your life and you could share a little bit about your experience with that person. Come over and make your voice heard at personalityhacker.com. And if you enjoyed this podcast, you can subscribe to us on iTunes and various Android platforms. If you leave us a rating and review on iTunes that helps us out a lot, we have a book. It's called Personality Hacker. You can get it in all major book retailers. If you want a special order it through one of your local bookstores, that would be awesome. Support them. And what's nice about the book is if you were listening to Clouds talk about how his mind is wired as an ISTP and all these different cognitive functions, well, the book helps you deep dive into the cognitive functions or the mental wiring of each of the 16 personality types. So if you're more in, you know, if you want to get more into that or if you're interested in understanding how your mind is wired, get a copy of the book, Personality Hacker. Once again, if you get it through a local bookstore, we're happy about that. And if you want to leave us a rating and review on Amazon or on Goodreads, once you read a copy, that would also help us out a lot. And of course, we have a suite of programs that are personal growth oriented through the lens of Personality Type, head over to PersonalityHacker.com and under our catalog of programs, see if there's one that's right for you. My name is Joel Mark Whit and I'm Antonia Dodge. And we'll talk with you on the next Personality Hacker podcast. you