Israeli-American Relations at a Crossroads

[Music] You are listening to an art media podcast. [Music] A few months ago, our pilots and their pilots were coordinating flights together over Iran. And we've gone from that standing in a matter of a few months to virtual outcasts. Puraeus, I feel that we are in an existential danger to lose the world and to lose our moral direction. We're at a moment where we have to decide who we are and for me, this is even more dangerous than Iran. [Music] Hi friends, this is Danielle Hartman and Yossi Klein-Halevi from the Shalom Artmen Institute. And this is our podcast for Heaven's Sake in collaboration with our media. Today is Wednesday, June 24th. And today's podcast is part of the Robert P. Kogat annual lecture. We dedicated a prior podcast in honor of Bob. And this is an annual lecture that his children funded in his honor. This is a special podcast live from the Shalom Hartman Institute and Jerusalem in front of our CLP. I don't even know what that sounds for. Community Leadership Program. That's right, the Community Leadership Program. It took me many years to learn that. Yeah, I knew these things before, but now with age. So our thing today is a tough one. And the rule that you and I have applied is that even if we don't know what we want to say, or even if we don't even like the subject, if we feel that it is the biggest subject that the Jewish people are facing right now, it's our job to do it, to talk about it. And you're the one, you'll see who said, "Diniel, this is what we have to talk about." And I said, "No, no." And you said, "Yes." And I said, "You're right." And he was. It doesn't always work that way. And the theme today is called the American Israeli Relationship at a Crossroads. This last two weeks haven't been easy for Israelis. And I know they haven't been easy for friends of Israel around the world and in particular in North America. A few weeks ago, we were hit with the Pew Report about how throughout the world we're losing support. But the country that is most significant in which defense Israel and which the day-to-day stability of this country are ability to be a free people in our home. Not subject to the United Nations Security Council sanction. It's the United States. And when 60% view Israel unfavorably and 27% view us extremely unfavorably, we're in trouble. And in that context, these last two weeks, it's really a week that it feels like a lifetime. We started by being, I would assault it, humiliated, demeaned by vice president Vance. Our story of our people is we're at the center of history. And just, you're 9 million people, you don't matter. I don't have to consider you. I don't have to bring a deal in the memorandum of understanding to you. I don't have to ask you to comment. I don't have to ask you to suggest some improvements. You bombed with us. But now, you're like, we are going to worry about American interests and the whole notion that we are a security central ally and asset of the United States. This last week, it was shattered. Whether it's objectively true or not is a separate question. But it certainly isn't experienced. That's not his experience. And we've been assaulted by the vice president for quite a while. And I've been feeling this and I saw this also recently in an interesting article where when people ask the vice president a hostile question about Israel, whether it is at a turning point event where someone says, "Why do we support Israel when they are violating our Christian values?" Or if someone recently asks, "How could you support the genocide of Israel?" And he never answers those questions. He doesn't defend us. He doesn't defend. We've been uncomfortable but see that get played out now in a war of profound partnership where the story we told ourselves about ourselves is how we're doing this together to deal with a global threat to the world, an existential threat to us and something that will be an existential threat to the world and we were there and we were, we told the stories of our achievements and our heroism and now just shh shh shh. And then when President Trump says it, "Ditanyahu, just stop." You're aggravating me. It was just like, it was in our face. It's so different from the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. I don't know if Israelis believe in New Hattedigested. And then just yesterday the recent elections in New York and the election of two of the most, I don't know how you want to call them, anti-Israeli potential future members of Congress, members of the democratic socialists of America, individuals who on October 7th condemned Israel. It's not people who argue about in May on October 7th, we were evil. Yeah, they're not critics, they're denying the legitimacy of Israel's success. Of Israel's success. And you sensed that also from Amdani and we did a whole podcast on Amdani, both hours and then I think also in call me back. And we sensed that it was a different story and it's coming to fruition, something's changing. And what's troubling is that these candidates positions on Israel is what's enabling them to win. Like when you think about the challenges facing the United States or the world, you know, you could criticize us, I criticize us all the time. But that criticism is what garners the support, the sense of alienation. So we're at a crossroads. And in today's podcast we want to talk about how we understand this moment and it's not an easy moment. And then we want to spend most of our time if we can on talking about, so what do we do? Because an essential part of the new story that we tell ourselves about ourselves is that we're not always victims. There's things that we could do. We don't just say, "Oh, what did they do to us? And we don't turn to God and say, "Gavalf, please save us." We try to help ourselves. So those will be the two stages. And so you'll see, this was not an easy week for you at all. At all. How do you understand what's happening? Or what are your feelings about it? I think about the two flags on the beamer of American synagogues. And this last week in particular was a turning point in the history of the entwinement of those two flags. And the significance of those two flags for the Jewish people is that it was the alliance between Israel and American Jewry and then later on, Israel and America, that was the means through which the Jewish people began to heal from the Holocaust and began to reclaim power, hard power here, political and philanthropic power in America. And that's what those two flags, that's what they always represented for me. This past week, a major tear in the entwinement of those two flags happened. I think about these last months in Jerusalem, I'm sure you saw this, there were flags that were mounted on some balconies that showed the Israeli and American flags blending into each other. The same flag, no daylight between these two flags. And that's what these last months of shared combat in Iran represented, the fusion of these two flags. And the red lines that were crossed this week were from both sides of the political spectrum. As you mentioned, Vance not only condemned us but spoke in a demeaning way that was, I think, really unprecedented from any major American politician, certainly a president or vice president. And on the other side, Mandani went a step further and even Jewish organizations on the left that had supported him felt uneasy, had to somehow distance themselves when he called APEC monsters and drew all the old tropes, dark money, control, evil. And I took that very personally, Danielle. I spent many years on the APEC speaking on the lecture circuit. I worked very closely with APEC 10 years ago to try to stop the Obama deal with Iran. And I always thought that I was part of the APEC. of a legitimate, if intense, political disagreement. And the mayor of the most Jewish city in the diaspora told us that actually we are beyond the pale. And so from either end of the political spectrum, the message that we got this past week was that something fundamental has changed. And what also really shocks me is the rapidity with which this has happened. You know, you mentioned the percentages of Americans who support Israel, who oppose Israel just a few years ago, maybe even a year or two ago, those percentages were reversed. And how quickly that's happened. A few months ago, we were America's closest ally. Our pilots and their pilots were coordinating flights together over Iran. And you know, when Van said that you Israeli should remember that Trump is the last threat you have, I was thinking, well, you know, you guys should remember that we're the only dependable military ally that you have in the world. No one else fought with America, only us. Now, of course, we had a vested interest, nevertheless, no one else stood beside America. And we've gone from that standing in a matter of a few months to virtual outcasts, pariahs. So the other thing, Danielle, that really weighed on me, especially with Mamdani and the results of the election in New York, and we've talked about this in the previous podcast, was the 30% of New York Jews who are said to have voted for Mamdani. Now, you and I know many of the Jews who voted for him. And we got lots of responses from listeners who said, you know, we didn't vote for Mamdani because of his anti-Israel position. We love Israel. We voted for him because it was a municipal election. And what does the mayor have to do with international relations? Well, yesterday we got the response. We got the answer to that question. A politician whose deepest commitment, whose deepest passion is hatred of Israel, that's where he began his political career, is now changing the nature of the congressional delegation from New York, from New York. The congressional New York delegation is becoming a center point in Congress of anti-Zionism. And that's directly on those Jews who voted for Mamdani. And the question that I have after yesterday's election is are American Jews on the left prepared any longer to defend the legitimacy of Israel's existence? We're talking bottom line here now because that's what this election was about. Bottom line, the right to exist, are they prepared to defend Israel's existence in the political system? And there's one last point, and it's a related question, but are they prepared to defend their own safety? Because when the mayor of New York calls a mainstream Jewish organization monstrous, he is endangering, not intentionally, but certainly in the current atmosphere. He is endangering the lives of New York Jews. And just in the last couple of weeks, there were two plots that were uncovered by the FBI that were aimed at APEC. There was an attempted attack against the APEC office in Florida, and the attack that was planned against the White House law, the Trump birthday extravaganza, was tied as well into an attack as the alleged conspirators put it against politicians who accept money from APEC. That's the atmosphere today. And so any second thoughts, the 30%, any regrets, any apology to the rest of us for bringing us to this moment? - I have a split identity, you see. As an Israeli, I hear you. But after speaking to hundreds of Bambani voters, I wonder whether we fully understand the complex reality that liberal American Jews encounter. And you want an apology. - Or a change of behavior, I'll settle for that. - Okay, or a change of behavior, but maybe they're stuck. You know, we just these last few weeks are beginning to understand what it means to live in Trump's world. It's not a pretty world, you see. We diluted ourselves into believing that there is this ideological friend and ally. And what happens to people who understood Trump much more clearly than you or I or because of the filter of looking at Israel's interest? Chosed to ignore a lot of things. A lot of abnormal distorted dystopian realities that he's promulcating and Israelis know it better now. But there's another story to tell and I think part of the story to tell and I want to put on the table a recognition of an impossible situation that many American Jews find themselves in. As I've learned from Yehuda and he articulated so beautifully, American Judaism is not a hyphenated identity where we're Jews and we live in America or in Canada. America became home, which has shaped our Judaism. It's created a new Judaism. And Jews don't just live in America, their whole identity is invested in a certain story about America. And that story became a Jewish story and they experienced their Jewish story, not just their self-interest on a immediate level of, you know, are you going to help on campus or not help on campus, which by the way is also very important. But whether I could breathe in America and a whole slew of policies and statements about immigrants and rule of law and institutions and the privilege of wealth and oh, they're just looking at it asking, is my America coming to an end? So you're positing it as, are you willing to defend Israel or defend Jewish interests? What I've come to understand is that what are Jewish interests are actually not that simple and people are asked to choose. Now, as Israelis, I'm with you is saying, I want you to choose me, choose me. And that's a natural thing to say, please choose me. But it's not a self-evident issue when your home is on fire, your home is on fire and even take A-PAC, for an example. A-PAC tolerated me, they loved you, right? Like when they wanted to reach out to progressives, they called me. Did a great job. Yeah. Sure you're seeing. But I also, as an Israeli, my natural inclination, I love A-PAC. I do, it's my natural, I get up in the morning saying, who's fighting for me? A-PAC, simple, it's like wasn't complicated and I didn't dissect every single issue. And A-PAC, by and large, supported Israel's interests, but still maintained, I believe, a profoundly bipartisan agenda. It was a big tent in which the Jewish people, or part of the Jewish people were able to find themselves. And I was, thank God for A-PAC, that there was someone fighting for us. It was an easy thing for me. But again, the experience of many North American Jews right now is A-PAC shifted its policy and it was an interesting move but I'm not criticizing the move, in which I don't need to advocate and speak. I want to try to access as much power as I can to try to influence the primaries so that more, like, we need a win. We need a win in Congress, we don't need a win in the hearts and minds. I think that's changed, by the way, and I think we do have to win in the hearts and minds and I think A-PAC has to change back some of its policy, but I'll leave that aside. But then, numerous Jews are encountering A-PAC making decisions to support candidates who they're looking to say, I can't breathe in this candidate, America. I know this person will vote correctly on Israel. And they'll support this aid and they'll be there, et cetera. Israel might be fine, but do I really have to support candidates who deny that Biden won the election? Like, are there any lines? And so, true, as an Israeli, we feel that Israel should be the line, but I think you'll see it behooves us as people who recognize that it's hard to be a Jew today, that Jews who might vote for this or that candidate devoted for my dad. or some might agree, some more right vote. If the Jewish interests are under assault from many sides, and it's not so simple to say you're being disloyal, it's just harder. And as Israelis, we have a right to be more, I don't want to say simplistic about it, because your position is not simplistic. And it hits deep in my soul and I resonate with a lot of it. So I don't know what the right term is to be something. It is people who belong to our people. It behooves us to listen, and they're telling you it's just harder, you'll see. So I can't apologize to you, and I'm not even sure I want to change my position. I really appreciate what you've said and the way you've said it. It was very moving and up to a point to quote you, I agree with you. You know, I think that one way of understanding the divide, almost in a bis that's open between Israelis and American Jews, over the last two decades, is seeing the divide through the prism of Obama and Trump. Because the two major centers of Jewish life were on either side of both of those elections. You'll remember, we had this conversation at the time here at the Institute during the Iran debate, and I was very angry at American Jews, and it was really our friend and colleague, Yuhudah Kurtzer, who forced me to see things a little bit differently, a little bit, to temper my judgment. And I think that that should be reciprocal. I understand American Jews being angry at Israelis for feeling gratitude and even warmth toward Trump before these last few weeks. And at the same time, I would hope for a little bit of tempered attitude in their anger. You know, but you'll see when you're facing something that you see as existentially dangerous. And I want to remind you of someone who you know very well. Yuhudah. No, like, you've lived so long with a clarity about Iranian nuclear threat. Maybe this is their existential moment. And it could be that we have different existential moments, and then we don't have to agree, but we don't have to ask for apologies or changing. It's like, I'm not you. You're not me. You know, like I say, like you and I, we live, we don't always see. If I could understand you, it's, you're not betraying me. You're not betraying the Jewish people. You're not betraying Israel. There might be consequences that I disagree with. But I think there's a different language. Okay. Yes. We're talking about Obama and Trump. But we're talking about voting for or empowering, handing New York City over to the people who gave us the tent camps on campuses. That was the move here. We're not talking about Obama, which was, okay, disagree. It was a bitter disagreement. We're still within the broad. I appreciate that distinction. That distinction makes sense. But could I move to the next stage? I know that in a lot of people's minds, it's not a distinctive distinction. But I appreciate it and I hear you because you're saying, I got to stop there, but not here. And all right, let's put it down. Something different happened here. I appreciate that. I don't know if all the people, if they're going down to all that path or not, but let's leave it as such. Let's shift to the second half. We're at a very painful moment. Let's talk about Israel. You're saying North American Jews, you should do Chuvah for who you elected or whatever. But in this reality of this crossroads, what is in Israel's power to do? So Danielle, you and I have had this conversation really since we've started the podcast. It's been one of the running themes, which is what does Israel need to do? And implicitly, what is our share of the responsibility for bringing us to this point of crisis? And what do we need to do to try to shift the negative momentum? And I'm a little bit hesitant to go down this path. I always have been in our conversations, but especially at this moment when the attacks against us are so vicious from both sides, that it feels as if taking on responsibility for this moment is almost true self-effacing. And that this is a moment where Jews need some backbone and we need to push back. Is this the old Yossi? Absolutely. It certainly is. But to my horror, everything that I believed when I was young and very right-wing about what the world was and the world was not that 40 years ago. I thought it was, but it's certainly starting to feel that way now. And I have changed, but your personality hasn't changed? Well, it's actually a big struggle for me because I don't want to go back to who I was 40, 50 years ago. In any sense, but also politically. And so I struggle with that. And you help push me. And that's one of the dynamics that I so much appreciate about our conversation is I don't want to go here. But I have to go here because we have a chavruta. We have a study partnership. And you have to at least meet your study partner halfway. You don't have to. Half what? Half the at least recognize the concerns of your study partner. That you have to do otherwise. But is it also the reality that you don't have to recognize? Like do you really think that you're a sponsor? No, no, and I hear the self-effacing look to Neil. I've been at the Harmon Institute long enough or too long to know that I can't lapse back into that persona anymore. And I have to deal with the full complexity of our situation. And that includes, as hard as it is for me, it includes a self-reconing. What is it in our conduct, in what we have projected, especially the last few years, especially this government that has contributed, that has made it easier for those who seek to criminalize us. And that's where I fold us. I believe that these processes, to some extent, not all of them, but to some extent, are independent of what we do. Because it's about who we are. It's about negating who we are. And it's also a larger political process. And it's civilizational. We're seeing a crisis in Western civilization. And there are lots of elements to this. But one of the elements, and this is in our power to deal with. And something we talk about a lot at the institute, is the meaning of Zionism. Meaning of Zionism is that it gave Jews options. And this is one of those moments where part of the options that we need to assume responsibility for is self-criticism. And so what should we do? How far are you willing to go without it being too self-effacing? Not far enough, because it's too much. Tell me though what you will look at. Look, my starting point is that nothing is going to change before we get rid of this government. So that's one piece of it, and part of me would like to end there. So okay, you know, we're going to do everything we can to throw the bombs out. And then Eisenkut or Bennett will fix it. They'll fix it. But it goes much deeper than that. Because what has opened up in Israeli society, Netanyahu was the triggerler. He was the enabler. And he exposed very deep and ugly trends in Israeli society. And they're not going away. Envierson going away. His supporters aren't going away. And the objective problems that we have, the moral crises. And of course, the most extreme expression of that, and really in some ways, the easiest of the problems to deal with is to say, which is what Bennett says all the time, we're going to stop the settler violence. Now, yes, obviously, the fact that we have a government that is turning a blind eye to settlement violence is simply unspeakable. So in one sense, this government has made it easier for the next government. Because the bar is so low that all they have to do is step in and just curb the most obscene expressions of what's wrong. But it goes deeper than that. It's the move toward annexation. It's the fact that, and this is again, something that I've owned up to as a result of our conversations, Danielle, which is how painful it is to acknowledge that we didn't have a serious moral conversation here over the last few years. And I understand all the reasons for it. And we've talked about this in our podcast that I have felt frozen much of the time. I think Israeli society as a whole is felt frozen, either enraged or just traumatized. But in the end, that's not good enough. And so this is what I'm struggling with. I don't have answers. But where are you? First of all, I appreciate, I hear you, and I appreciate the steps like that in Israel, which speaks another language, is an Israel that's trying to compete to win back hearts and minds. that we take responsibility for some of the people who look at us and say, "Ugh!" Now some of you are anti-Semites in a plague on all your houses. But others may be, and just that it's not an easy thing to do at this moment. I find myself moving even more radically. In a way that the majority of Israeli society is not yet moving. I understand when you were speaking about Iran, and when you said, "Israel has to decide what's the greatest danger right now? Is it Iran? Do we care about Iran or do we care about settlements?" And I remember you were saying, "This was a move for you." I remember hearing you work it out. That this was something that the Israeli right had to decide. They needed to restrain themselves on settlements to focus on Iran. Like when there is a grave danger, the rules have to change. I find that I'm in now in a denial Iranian moment. And that is a moment where I feel that we are in an existential danger to lose the world and to lose our moral direction. We're at a moment where we have to decide who we are and for me. This is even more dangerous than Iran. We're more dangerous. Losing world support. Both. Again, I see it. Like who could be the next president of the United States? Literally. You just imagine what South African sanctions would look like for the state of Israel. We could be heading that direction. Like I see it. And I see the alienation. It's not that they don't want to support it. They don't respect us. But it's not just the public relations issue. I see inside in Israeli society that has to pick where it wants to go. And I'm afraid that the suggestions that you spoke about, which are things that I would have embraced a year ago as, okay, let's start. Are just not enough. I just not enough anymore. When the world accuses you of being genocidal baby killers and your response is it's complex and I'm going to do some moral conversation right now. It's like you're not even into conversation. And I'm finding myself talking more and more about a need for us as a society to put the PS word back on the table. Palestinian state. And it's a very hard conversation for Israelis post October 7th. And because there's another PS word which is post script post to the state, this kind of post. Okay, fair enough. That was clever. I'm thinking of a conversation that I had with my granddaughter Mia at our Shabbos table a few weeks ago. She used to be very left wing center left. And after October 7th, she just wants buffer zones. Okay, I speak to her about I want to apologize. You say, what are you crazy? We need a buffer zone. You want to move somebody closer to me? And that's why Israelis also have such difficulty even thinking about political solutions. Why they even want to continue a war in Lebanon, which is not going anywhere, but at least we'll have a buffer zone. Buffer zone is some psychedelic drug to help us live with our PTSD. You know, like if I, it's like it just helps me get up in the morning. It dulls it a little bit. I don't feel that they're literally around the corner. In any conversation which would bring people the danger closer, I know is very hard for Israeli Stephen conceit. But I have yet to hear any serious, any alternative to a two-state solution. The deals with Israel's aspirations to be a Jewish democracy and deals with the human right challenges and the human rights of the Palestinian people. I'm not saying what that state should be. Could it be demilitarized? Could it have this rule? What exactly it is? And I'm not saying that I'm for creating it now because I don't know how to create it now. With this current PA authority, there's nothing to talk about. I accept that. But I believe that we have to start talking about seriously. The Israel we want. Like when we're looking at a world and we're saying, you know, it's complicated we need but we're not even competing anymore, you see. We're talking to ourselves and I have to stand it. You're okay. Can I just move myself a little more or you had enough? Can I go ahead? Because I'm just getting warmed up. But if you have to come in, no, I don't forget. I'm just like, I'm just like, I can't tell you all importantness is to me. There is no future for Israel unless at some point there can't be a two-state solution. No future. This is not Zionism. This is not Judaism. We didn't come home to occupy another people. We didn't come home to normalize occupation of another people. At the end of the day, I don't know how to do it. But I want us to start saying, yes, this is what we want. It's clear this is what I, how? I'm going to, you have to understand that it's harder. You know, I listen to Nafdali Bennett on the podcast Unholy. It's not in the Archimedia community, but we could still say nice things about it. It's a very serious podcast also. And they interviewed Nafdali Bennett and asked him, so tell me, we're all wondering, are you just going to continue Netanyahu? Are you really going to be different? How different are you going to be? You know, in every politician in the world, us to always say, I've never changed my mind. You know what I mean? No, I'm still right. I'm weighing in this and this and this and I reject a Palestinian state. And he says, you know, he gave Mecha Goodman's shrinking the conflict idea, which I really embraced. Years ago, I thought Mecha was great. It was a wonderful way of bringing back a moral conversation to a country that wasn't ready yet. But I feel now it's just like the trains just left the station. We have to work at a different pace. We, you know, so Nafdali Bennett's saying, I can't do this, but I want to tell you, if life for Palestinians in the West Bank is now with three, I want to move it to be a seven. And I'm looking at the people who we've lost around the world and they're saying, really? This is how you understand your killing kids, your committing genocide, your creating apartheid and you're talking from three to seven? We have to say just like we said in Lebanon, I don't want to occupy another people. I don't want to be a master of the Palestinian people. I'm not telling you what it should be. Is it this plan or that plan? But I want to tell you we, Israelis, and we have to start and I know we're going to pay a price for this. We have to start creating some of that conversation here in Israel. We're not going to be prepared for a world and we're certainly not dealing with the profound alienation that people are looking at saying, you know, I know you're traumatized, but you're just coming up morally inadequate. Now I feel better. Yes, you'll see. And I apologize. I just had to get this off. It's a thing. You'll see it's like sitting on me. We each have certain red button issues. This is my Iran, you'll see. Look, where we are is in a frontal confrontation, almost a train wreck between where much of the world is at, maybe most of the world, and where most of Israeli, the Israeli public is at. And right now there's an unburjable divide because what you're suggesting and look, I've been there. I've been for a two-state solution all these years and I wish that we had a government that would at least pay lip service to a two-state solution. Frankly, for political reasons, just simply to help us break out of the vise and you're talking about it for very different reasons. You're talking about it for our own moral integrity. And post-Actober 7th, I'm not there. I know. And Danil, I can tell you if I'm not there, most Israelis aren't there. I take that. One of the advantages that I have, that my name is on this building, is that I'm not running for politics. I don't get up in the morning and I think part of that's the job of any moral individual or a rabbi or a teacher is I have to ask, how do I speak in a way that people could hear? Because you don't want to just speak to yourself. It's interesting. It takes us. It takes us. I know they're not there, but it's precisely because they're not there, you'll see. Okay. That I want to start talking about it more. And I want to say to Israelis, I'm with you. Danil, this takes us to a conversation we have. We've had in the past about the prophet versus the teacher. Prophet versus the rabbis. For many years, we were on different sides of that. You were really in the tradition of your father and the tradition of the Hartman Institute, that chazal, the rabbis were actually on a higher level than the prophets. And I deeply, you were a prophet. I rebelled against. I know. And I know that there is one of the ways in which I'm a Hartman heretic. And today I am certainly in the context of this conversation. I'm where you were. I'm upholding the teacher as opposed to the prophet for a very practical reason. I believe that those of us who are engaged in a public conversation and helping to shape the Jewish public conversation can't go too far ahead of the people because then you lose eye contact. You're in a conversation. And where most Israelis are at today, what you just said now would be considered the way your granddaughter responded. Oh, that's insane. There's two things. And one last thing, didn't you? Yeah. We're about to have an election. And on the opposition, there's only one leader who would affirm what you've just said. And that's your ear go on. And from what we see, he's going to get ten seats, which is very nice for the left. You know, he's really left has been in really hard straights. He's resurrecting the left ten seats. But look at where the overwhelming majority of the opposition is at. I know. And if you don't get a debate, but the nail, if you can have that conversation with the opposition, I'm with you. I accept the reality of where Israelis are. But a prophet wouldn't care if people can hear them or not. They wouldn't care. They would say like Isaiah, chapter one, "Hear my words, you chieftains of strum." Like, you know, that's a great way to make friends and influence people. Like, you scumbags of the universe now come and listen to me as I try. So I'm with you. But I've been working these last three years in various degrees of success. To try to ask, how do we talk in a way that we deal with some people's fears? By the way, their fears are also stopping all moral conversation. And with different audiences, you have to spend time. Part of the time is about talking about what do we want? Not what we're going to implement now. Separating a conversation about our vision of the world as we want it to be, while recognizing that there's a gap between that, and telling, "I'm not doing something tomorrow. I don't want a Palestinian state tomorrow, but creating that space, validating your credentials and recognition of that I'm only interested in this. If it could be a state that deals with the security, needs, and rights of all the people." And there's ways of talking, but what we've done is we're not even trying anymore. We're not even trying anymore. We're not even doing what the rabbis did. Because the rabbis also pushed. We're just accepting mediocrity. And I appreciate that you're saying, "Deniel, I'm not there, but I think we have to bring back a moral conversation despite it all. My challenge to you, and I want to give you the last word, is I think we have to go higher. And we have to again begin a conversation that a noble Zionism, a noble Zionism, both in Israel, and a noble Zionism amongst our friends around the world, and then have the fight and the conversation about the gap between reality and aspirations. But the Jewish people that I've been always a part of never let reality define our aspirations. And right now, our aspirations are too low. And don't be surprised if you're losing the world. And you're just not there. It's time for us to get there. You'll see last thoughts. So where I'm at, and where I think part, maybe a good part of the Israeli public is at, is that after three years, post October 7th, many of us are ready to have a conversation about whether we should have the conversation. Now that's not enough for you. And I understand that's not enough for the world. But realistically, that's where I think the part of the Israeli public that once was part of a moral conversation, and maybe still wants to be but can't, can be moved. And the way to move them, for me, and I think for Israelis in this camp that I've just invented, is that moral appeals, but very practical appeals. And that's the part of what you're saying that appeals to me, which is, look at the situation we're in. We may be five minutes away from a major break with the international community, the kind of break that we haven't experienced yet. And coming from that place of saying, what is in Israel's interests? Now that's different. That's not the moral, the passionate moral conversation. It could lead to that. That's a component of it. But how do we jump start that? That's, I think, the best, the best that I feel I can do, and that many other Israelis can do. You'll see. It's a pleasure being with you. Great to be with you. Thank you. For Heaven's sake is a product of the Shalom Harman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Shector, and Aviva Katmanor, and Studio Support from GoLive Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Natal Friedman is our executive producer, and our music was composed by Yvall Sama. Past episodes can be found at ARCMedia.org, where you can explore more of ARCMedia's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to ARCMedia.org and subscribe to ARCMedia's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Harman Institute, visit our website at www.shalomharman.org.