Israel Votes: New Year, New Hopes

[Music] You are listening to an art media podcast! [Music] The essence of the "high holiday season" in our tradition is the belief that what was is not what needs to be. For me, it's the return of an absolute measure of truth. Netanyahu is our first postmodern Prime Minister. Truth is flexible. I don't want to call it hilltop youth because that's a way to whitewash. Let's call it Jewish terror. And my hope is that we could at least reclaim a basic moral principle. Jews don't beat up, Jews don't murder. Hope is not just a prayer. It's about making decisions and directing your resources to magnifying and to actualizing them. [Music] Hi, friends. This is Daniel Hartman in Yossi Klein-Halavi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast for Heaven's Sake in collaboration with art media. Today is Tuesday, September 8th. And our theme for today in the spirit of Rosh Hashanah the New Year which is coming, we called it New Year New Hope. So much of what we've been doing these last three years has been responding. And in many ways, we're punching bags. It's true. Gossens also feel like punching. Everybody's being punched. You know, there's a lot of punching going on. But we're getting punched and we have to dodge. You know, it's like you're moving. We're shifting. Like, what do we do? This, judicial reform. The war. We're dodged one punch. The next one comes immediately. And we're, how do we respond? Today in the spirit of Rosh Hashanah Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish calendar, the New Year is remarkable. Because while on the one hand, it's about achieving atonement from God and through that being written and inscribed in the book of life. But the essence of the high holiday season in our tradition is the belief that what was is not what needs to be. The Jewish tradition rejects categorically determinism and is a fanatical believer in free choice. And on Rosh Hashanah, you're a kipper. It's about reviewing who you were and deciding who you want to be. And that that decision is not just technical. It's actually implementable. It could be a system in which there are things that you think about which could actually change who you are. And it could last throughout the year. And so today, we want to talk about in the spirit of change so much hardship on the basis of our analysis and understanding of the political realities that we're facing. What are some realistic hopes? Now, we're not going to debate with each other whether your hopes are realistic or not. Because that's that silly. You know, hopes. They have to be connected to reality, but they're not doing prophecy. We're not doing prophecy. And we're not doing naive idealism. And we're not doing hopes based on pure political analysis. We're taking the world as we see it, the elections as we see it. And what we hope for now, obviously, this whole conversation is premised on a hope that some of our listeners won't have, even though most will. And that is that there's going to be a new government. Because if there isn't a new government, then we're going to have a podcast surviving without hope. Or Zionism without hope. Or it's like stubbornness. The next four years of For Heaven's sake is going to become very monotonous. No, it'll be very interesting what we do. But at least today, we can breathe. Because the latest two polls in Israel, Channel 12, which is very often very authoritative and also the Mareev, which is consistently the most accurate, both speak about how. Even if Netanyahu gets all of his three non-Ultra Orthodox partners into the Knesset, he levels out at 52. And his list that he's forming now, it's like it's almost a strange collection of figures that people might know, but it's all about keeping his base. There is no new dramatic figure, which he was able to introduce to present the Likud as a party of change or anything. And so, you know, in both of them, Eisenkut is at 57. In one of them, Eisenkut even gets to 61, together with a new party, which according to that poll passes, but we don't know if it will pass. But at least, we're not losing. So, like, breathe. Hi, everybody. We're breathing. Nice to be with you. We're breathing today. Next week, we don't know. But the lists are being formed. So, on the basis of what we see, in the spirit of the New Year, let's one, one, but we're going to talk to each other. What's your first realistic change that you could see, a positive change, happening in our society? Truth is flexible. Our Trump. Our Trump. And he has a vast media apparatus that he's created. Radio stations and the Keystone is Channel 14 TV that has fed the Israeli right for the last four years. A consistent diet of lies. And the closer we get to the election, the more outrageous the lie. And just the latest lie is that we're hearing from both Saron Netanyahu and hinted at by the Prime Minister that there was treason in the ranks of the army, that they deliberately concealed information about the imminent invasion of October 7th. Why? Well, Saron Netanyahu. Tell them the story. Why would we allow Hamas to murder 1200 Israelis? Well, Saron Netanyahu's reason is to discredit Netanyahu to bring him down. It was the way to bring him down. To bring him down. Yeah. Just insist on this. No, you just can't believe what you're hearing. But people believe literally. But many people believe it. So the reestablishment of truth. And in Jewish tradition, there's an argument about this world. Is this world the arena where truth is possible or not? So there's the saying, "Alma Dushakra." This is a world of lies, which really echoes the eastern idea of Maya that this is a world of illusion. And in this world, it's impossible to establish the truth. Here's a counter-tradition which is Lashekar-e-Raglheim that the lie has no legs, literally. A lie cannot indefinitely stand. And so thinking of the transition from this last year to the new year, I'm going with Lashekar-e-Raglheim. And the return of truth, you know, when you listen to all of the leaders of the opposition, it doesn't matter whether I agree with some more, some less, they're speaking truth. These are people of integrity. And we know that the very first move that God willing this new government will do is establish a commission of inquiry to try to get to the bottom of what's the truth, what actually happened on October 7th. The headlines in Israel today is that the amir of the UAE called Netanyahu 10 days before October 7th and warned him that Sinwar is planning a massive attack. Now, there were reports months ago that the Egyptians had warned Netanyahu, but somehow that report didn't pick up. This one is banner headlines. This is what people are talking about today. And so I saw that and you talk about breathing. I felt I could breathe Lasheka and Raghlheim. A lie has no legs. It will not endure. And I saw that I said, you know, this is the beginning of the retrieval of at least a commitment to search for the truth. Because that's what's missing today in Israeli public discourse. Yeah, truth. First of all, I love that one. That's a gift. Because it really is a breathing issue whether you live in conspiracy world or not. But as I, you know, I do my 15 news sites. And as I'm going through each one, guess which news sites did not report? Well, Channel 14 of course. Channel 14 and Macquarie Sean. They didn't report it. That is the religious end. They both of them did not report it at all. That's the religious Zionist newspaper. And Macquarie Sean actually has some credibility. I think there are good news papers. There are serious newspaper. They didn't report it either. Wow. But Israel today, the Edelsen used to be pro-Bibi one. It was front. Why not? Because it was a front page. Oh, every one of them. Why not, Mary? Every one of them had this. But again, it goes back to a willingness to even engage in some people. They're even here. That's such a report ever happened. Because it's a lie. And therefore, it doesn't even appear. That's the lie. That's right. That's the lie. That's why we need the commission. But their whole discussion is a commission. Supported by the Supreme Court, is by definition a political power play against it there. All the language that they've used immunizes them from any -- And there are -- Any criticism -- This is a long-term damage. That he's done, is that there is a part of the population the population that has now just infected with such profound confusion that it's impossible to have at this course. And I come up against it all the time. Yeah, so I like that one. It's helping me breathe too. One of the ones that you know we've talked about and it's one of our nightmares that are unfolding, which I believe at least every single member of all the parties which today make up the opposition have come out clearly against. And that is their critique of I want to call it intentionally. They're little youth who have ADHD's. You know, let's call it Jewish terror. Let's call it what Huckabee. Yes. What Huckabee called it if Huckabee could call it the American ambassador. So like here and there is no one more pro-Israel. Right. And so for once in my life I'll be channeling Huckabee. If he could call it that terror has no place. And I think what you're going to see is a new moral standard to the occupation. Now I know that's an oxymoron for many. And some of you say this is your greatest hope. Now notice I didn't say I'm hoping that we're going to resolve the conflict with the Palestinians and that they'll be in expanded Abraham Accords which will move us forward together with Jared Kushner. And I know that all the deals and plans are already on the table and that you'll see a dramatic movement. I want to have some grounding for my hopes while I personally aspire for that. To speak about that as a new year new hopes is too fantastical. I don't have an Israeli society which shares with me this aspiration. And there isn't a single political party outside of the Democrats or the Israeli Arab parties which speak in terms of the two state solution. So I don't expect any serious moves unless some things will happen and we'll talk about them because it might happen you know beyond our pay grades. But given the fact that in my mind and I use these terms that we are occupying in other people. And I make the distinction which I know is important to you. I'm not talking about whether we're occupying a land. I'm not talking about whether we have a claim to the land or not a claim to the land. That's not my issue. The issue is is that there's three million people sitting in Judea and Samaria and I'm not even counting Gaza right now. Who right now they are living under state allowed terror. State allowed terror. Wall Street Journal has a great article analyzing what's happening here. They're allowed to be terrorized. There's groups of people who are able to walk around. The Palestinians aren't allowed to defend themselves. They can walk around with weapons with knives with bats. The Jewish terrorists. Hundreds or whatever it is there are a lot of do whatever they want with impunity. The army when they come in make sure that the Palestinians if they responded they're the ones who are arrested create a closed military zone. There is this chaos but it's not just a military chaos. It's not just a discipline chaos. There's a moral chaos which is eating away at Israeli society right now every day that we tolerate it. It's condemned from time to time when Huckabee says something, so Netanyahu says something, but the only ones who are seriously condemning it are the Bennett's, the Lieberman's, the Eisenkut's and the Dutch. This is not who we are and one of the my hopes for the year is that with a change of government we're not going to see a dramatic transformation of Palestinian rights. But there has to be levels and when we allow sanctioned tolerate Jews terrorizing Palestinians that's a level that is simply it was unfathomable. I was still able to live with a continued occupation under the notion that it's complicated and you need two sides and and all of the above as long as I believe that Israel's still trying. But when we have this level of state-sponsored terror state-sponsored or state-tolerated I don't think the difference is so great and part of the reasons why the army doesn't respond is that the minister of defense is not willing to fight it and the ministers are all protected. You don't have the political will to take a strong stand. All the only political will you have is to call them hilltop youth and to do behind-the-scenes work which sometimes there is some work done by the Shabak by the security services which are helped but we have time. There's time and a friend of mine's a fellow with the Arb and Institute just this Friday there's now a Jewish group they go Fridays to protect Palestinians against his violence. They come groups of settlers came, family came and they're literally stealing people's grapes from their harvest. They're harvesting. So they came to them and speak to them and say what are you doing? It's not yours. A mob surrounds them the army immediately comes, removes the Jew, arrests the Palestinians and these people by the time it's on their gone they've taken what they have and it comes back to his car all the wheels are slashed. I don't think an occupation is us. I don't think we came home to occupy another people and I yearn for a Palestinian state but even I recognize that it's going to take time and serious change in Palestinian society. This is not a change in Palestinian society this is us changing and my hope is that we could at least reclaim a basic moral principle. Now it's a very important point you were making about state tolerated terror being in essence really no different from state sponsored terror because the moment that you tie the hands of the Shabbakh and the army for that matter and we won't even talk about Ben-Viers police then you are complicit. It makes little difference whether you are actively sponsoring or tolerating and so yeah I think that that's going to be very close to the top of the agenda of this next government. What they will do on day one and they've said it is establish a commission of inquiry and my guess is on day two they call in the heads of the security services and say so what's the plan? What's the plan? And even though very often when they talk you hear you know this is destructive to this settlement movement this is destructive to Israel standing in the world so they're doing it for the wrong reasons because it's destructive to their core identity but I'll take impure motives as long as at the end of the day we'll get the results that we want. Where do you want to go from here? Yeah my framework for what we've been facing the last years and I've mentioned this in our conversations is a three-front war. We face the military conflict primarily with Iran and subsidiary fronts. We are facing a growing campaign of delegitimizing our right to exist around the world and we're facing internal disintegration. So when I think about where I'm looking for hope finding it actually finding hope and finding hope and I believe there is hope I'm looking at it's kind of a three-dimensional screen so I would like to talk about the internal situation and you and I have spoken at length in fact we spoke about this again last week about the two large peripheral communities in Israel that are really outside the mainstream the ultra-orthodox on one side of the political spectrum and the Arab Israelis on the other and we are seeing a shift not necessarily in the political map I think it's premature to determine that but we are seeing an extraordinary shift in discourse just in the last few days. Now this new core is a discourse within each of those communities and I think this is what's really so interesting. So first of all let's look at the changes in the Haredi conversation the again the internal Haredi conversation there's a new party we mentioned it briefly last week Hatsibor Haredi the Haredi public it's still not going very far two seats at the most right barely yet not even anymore but it's there it's interesting what's interesting is that they are galvanizing the public conversation within the Haredi world everyone's attacking them everyone's scrambling I say everyone it's actually not true not everyone the editor of the most important Haredi magazine La Mishpacha the family and it comes out in Hebrew in English and French and Spanish it's it's it's by far the most popular Haredi magazine was interviewed on a Haredi radio station the other day and he said pay attention to what muddy learner is saying he says I'm not saying I don't agree with her you know god forbid but pay attention because he is expressing the mood of a part of our community that is increasingly frustrated if only for that moment this party has already won its place in the world to come and what this party is saying it's a very interesting and complicated platform that they're putting out because it's not my platform at all they're saying that who Whoever is learning Torah full-time must continue to learn Torah. Now, there's no way to effectively measure that. It's a recipe for just prolonging the status quo. Nevertheless, they are very strong in saying that whoever is not learning needs to serve in the army. - Yesterday-- - Their other point is also that every state-sponsored school has to teach English and math. - Crucial, they're saying that's part of their-- - I'm what they're saying. - To break the cycle of poverty. - And I saw one of the nominees on the party and I'll get to her in a moment. The fact that it's her is the point. - She was at the institute. - Yes, she was one of our fellows. Nahumiyafah. - Yeah. - Dr. Nahumiyafah, Harvard, and Israeli woman who went to the states, did very well there, and has come back now to beat number two on this list, the first woman to ever run on a Haredi list in Israel. And I saw a clip with her yesterday and she said, "I believe that the Haredi community has within it the potential to be the engine of Israeli economic success." And she said, "As a Haredi, as an Israeli, as a woman, this is why I've entered politics. I'm doing this for my children. I'm doing this for my community and I'm doing this for my country." We have not heard this kind of language publicly before. So when I look for hope, again, it depends where you look. You're right, they're in all likelihood, they are not going to get into the kineset. But maybe that's not their job. You know the Haredi community is so deeply conservative and change happens so slowly. They are breaking the most basic taboo of the Haredi community, which is, you don't talk publicly about this. Mutti Learner is going on TV, on Secular, on this channel 12 and he's talking about what's wrong in the Haredi world. This is breaking all the rules. So this already makes me feel like we're in a new situation. Something's happening. You know, it's interesting. You spoke about two minorities. One, the Haredi minority and the other one is the Israeli Arab minority. I want to speak about two minorities too. And I hope that I have one minority are Israeli non-orthodox or non-traditional orthodox. Let's call it a majority that's being treated like a minority. We have a minority. We're a minority. All the liberal Jews of Israel is one minority and the other minority is the ultra orthodox. But in a different way in which I believe that the parties in the opposition are putting forth platforms that are basically going to change the status quo of both of these minorities. When it comes to the ultra orthodox, it's simple. Here you're talking about really fascinating internal changes that are happening. But whatever legislation is going to be put forth regarding the drafting of ultra orthodox and I think it's not going to be as immediate, but there's going to be a change. It's going to be forcing the ultra orthodox to create a new covenant with Israel and the modern world that the infantilization of the ultra orthodox community which they embraced for ideological reasons and Israeli society embraced for political reasons is basically going to come to an end. Let's say a word about how that infantilization was expressed in the war. You don't have to. You don't have to work. You don't have to know anything. You don't have to take responsibility. You don't have to serve. You just have to put somebody in the government who will help me rule and I will enable you to live in the 17th century whenever you feel like it. For as long as you feel like it, I'll let you create a ghetto. You can't function in the world, you don't have the tools to function in the world. You're not taking responsibility for the public sphere. You're just taking and we have the privilege of supporting you and great and you ideologically even say, well, you know, we're the leaders we're defending Israel and it's an infantilized relationship which Israel could no longer afford. But I think there's going to be, it's going to be painful, but you're going to see the beginning of a process of that type of political change in which political parties, like the ones you mentioned, his name is Learner, you said? - Matti Learner. - Matti Learner. And Hubeyafa are just the beginning of new voices that some people are speaking about close to 20% of the El-Chorothodox community are of a different, you can't call them liberal El-Chorothodox, but you call them modern El-Chorothodox. - Yeah, politically most are right wing but they want to be aligned with mainstream Israel. - Certainly economically. - But even on gender issues. Look, the picking number two, there's more going on. I've met with some of their leaders, not with Learner, but some of their educational leaders. These are of the new party. - Not of the party of the new movement. - Oh, interesting. - And they have different names. They're very, very interesting people. So I think the political reality, the fact that every one of them, you know, when we speak about that, you know, what's the first legislation is the passing of a new draft law is going to create a process that I think is going to be critical for the El-Chorothodox and for Israeli society. So that's one minority that's going to be realigned and the other minority which are the liberal Jews of Israel, which are a third of the religious Zionist, some of the El-Chorothodox who, while the traditional, secular, reform conservative, literally a vast majority of Israeli society, who are today unrepresented in issues of state religion. Issues of state religion are controlled by the government and in the government, the El-Chorothodox, their payment is not only fund me, let me be the master of Judaism. I am the master. There are no other masters. I control the Rabbinate, I control all legislation, I control when things ride on Shabbat, what rides, what's open, what's not open, how you marry, how you convert everyone of these other parties. Bennett speaks about it, Lieberman has been speaking about it for years, Golan is speaking about it, Eisenkut already has platforms, papers worked out, many of them actually we worked with the Hartman Institute on them, a redefining of the covenant of state religion, in which there'll be civil marriages, conversion is going to be hard for them to do because that's a harder one in Israel for reasons of some myth of unity, that if we have multiple conversions, we won't be able to marry each other. And many secularists don't prioritize that, isn't it? - But it's not a priority, but Shabbat's an issue, marriage is an issue. You can see that change, Kashut, the Rabbinate is going to begin to lose its monopoly. And so the Israeli ultra orthodox, we spoke about last week, you know, the Israeli air, the largest minority, which are the liberal Jews, we can look for a new conversation taking place, which will also enable the majority of liberal Jews in North America and around the world to begin to see a Judaism in Israel that they can even identify in some way as having a family resemblance to their own. This persecuted majority in Israel, a new covenant. So I'm very hopeful that on these two minorities, so to speak, you're going to see a new-- - Daniel, I don't know what to do with all this hope. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I was like, that's the idea, you go to Russia shut and feel the go-ver-well. - Yeah, that's beautiful, that's beautiful. And I mentioned earlier that there is a shift in the conversation on both sides of these two peripheral minorities. I want to talk for a moment about what's happening on the Arab-Israeli side. Manzor Abbas, who we've spoken about many times, the head of the party, Raham, which was Islamist and began as a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated party, and today has severed its relations with the Muslim Brotherhood, also ideologically, formed an alliance. And I think we mentioned this briefly last week with a Jewish Zionist member of the Aishatid party who left Aishatid and is joined, Raham, Sigalovich, who was a high-ranking police commander. And it's very much in alliance of pragmatism. And Sigalovich was very involved in trying to stop the epidemic of violent crime in the Arab sector, especially murders, and formed an alliance with parts of the Arab community. And so you have, for the first time, a Zionist who is joined an Arab party. That's something that I think we really need to emphasize. There have been radical left-wing anti-Zionist Jews who joined the Arab-dominated Communist Party in the past. This is the first time that you've had an avowed Zionist joining an Arab. Have you heard his interviews? Yes, yeah, I thought he was terrific. His interviews have nothing to do with pragmatism. Well, he's talking about, yes, he's talking about a vision. No, he's a deeply ideological vision. Says, I'm doing this as a Zionist. As an Israeli, as a Jew, he's speaking about. I have an Israeli identity, not just a Jew. He literally is giving everyone on my speeches. So I get very moved when I hear someone else give my speeches. But he's literally speaking about, this is Zionism. Israelis, we have an Israeli identity. I'm doing it for Zionist. And I think Mansoor Abbas obviously does not have a Zionist vision, but does have a vision of civic society in Kuwait. And he even defends there was this fascinating interview with the two of them in which they were trying to catch him and saying, you know But Mansoor Abbas said that the Jewish identity of the country was forced on yeah, so single average says what do you think? You think for 2,000 years he's been hoping for us to come home and live in his house like what do you expect from them? And single average said a fascinating line. He says how do you want to now move forward? Do you want to keep on making an account of the past of what every one of us said at any given time under Different circumstances, or are we going to embrace a new future? I'm listening to him I already told my people set up a meeting with him as soon as possible This guy when we rabbis get this it's like a very special moment for us because to be a rabbi is to get the following Experience you give a lecture and people come up to you and say rabbi. I love your speech And it is always followed with I agreed with every word of it like that's it as long as bees will agree They it's like that's like our job is here. I listened to his speech. I agreed with every word of it I loved it. It's things I've been speaking about for years But it's again, you know why this is important and I know you're saying this is that these are the conversations That are now taking place. It's not the same old same old Nitenya was gonna put his hate campaigns and you know This is the Hamas party in Israel, but these people it's not catching again We come back to a new conversation now something interesting and I'm more cautious here is happening on the right in fact on the hard right and that's Winters party which we've spoken about his number two is a Christian Arab named Yusuf Hadeh and Yusuf Hadeh is Beloved within the Israeli Jewish public because he's been out there since October 7th Traveling the world defending Israel wraps himself literally in a big Israeli flag and goes Into anti-Israel demonstrations in London in New York a wounded soldier. He served in Lebanon and was wounded in 2006 And he said the other day That Winters party is the first Arab Jewish right wing party. No, he said this first Arab. He said it's the first joint list Joint playing on the joints is the first joint list. I was ready. Now you call it right wing. He says the first Israeli Arab party in his Joint and look obviously it's an exaggeration nevertheless winter Who is as right wing is the best here as the best or the worst of them of the ultra-national? Yes, his platform is the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza. Yeah, so let's you know I'm not gonna get too excited here, but something that our colleague and friend Tomapersiko said the other day Which is he was looking at what's happening in Ram with Sagalovic and Abbas? Then he's looking at what's happening with winter and Hadeh He's saying what we're seeing is the emergence of a very pragmatic politics that wherever you are on the map you're discovering that you have partners in the Arab Israeli community. Now the problem that I have with the winter Hadeh alliance is that his message really is the only Arabs that are Excessible are those who are going to drape themselves in a giant Israeli flag And so he's excluding obviously the vast majority And Sagalovic's move in that sense is far more hopeful But I think that Tomas point is really worth taking into account Because something is shifting after October 7th in the immediate aftermath of October 7th All of these moves would have been inconceivable So three years later There's some kind of an implicit understanding Among Jewish Israelis apparently across the political map That we have 20% of our citizens that we need to engage with And you sense that you know, you'll see we could go on and on like my list is just I've made myself so happy It's like I said that's why I think this is the place to stop Like we really don't want to get too carried away I don't want to like don't worry people We have still major crises is going to be really bad The poor gets better I could assure all of them because the Jewish Indians think you know, oh they's mere You know, I mean like you know the joke about the Jewish telegram Start worrying details to follow like but that's been in many ways What we've been experiencing we've been punched there's so much And we don't even need the details to follow we don't even actually know the details So my friends, you know, let me end. Just say I want to wish you a good year and you do me and I want to wish our audience You know New York Times has an op-ed saying that happiness is an overrated virtue So I don't want to wish you a happy year I want to wish you a good year and I want to wish you and all of us a year In which we could reclaim hopes again and that we talk about them and that we don't have to assume That by definition, you know bad news, you know details. It's going to get worse All our problems aren't going to be solved. We have a lot. Don't worry We have a lot of enemies around the world and we haven't solved those problems and Iran is still here Even though there might be reasons for optimism. We'll talk about that in another time There's some changes We don't know where the elections are going to go but if they go in the right direction I think Israel We're going to see forces and as we enter into Rosh Hashanah We choose to celebrate them. We choose to think about them and we choose to also engage In strengthening them because it hope is not just a prayer It's about making decisions and directing your resources To magnifying and to actualizing them. So Shannatova and Shannatova to all of us. Shannatova, everyone Can you taste the food when you read a cookbook? Welcome to identity crisis. I'm your host, you heard a curtser And I'm a Dean assessment and we just made these watermelon whiskey sauer's Behind me. Before sitting down with my guest, my friend and the extraordinary cookbook author, Adina Sassman Adina and I met up at Shuka Carmel Tel Aviv's vibrant, open air market Narrow walkways, stalls filled with produce, spices, falafel stands, hidden coffee shops, people yawning each other We're going to get some treats for the house. These are my people People come to a coffee shop, they come to the cinema, for community And that's funny because I sometimes refer to cookbooks as culinary Cidurin. Are these local? Oh, yeah. Nothing here is imported. Everything is in seasonal and local Three places people should eat and tell of you. My kitchen, but that's unfortunately not an option for everybody Listen to the latest episode of identity crisis wherever you get your podcasts For heaven's sake is a product of the Shalom Harman Institute and art media It is produced by me and your goodman with help from Miriam Jacobs, a Dar Taylor Shector and Aviva Katmanor And studio support from go live media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein And our music was composed by Yvall Samo Past episodes can be found at arcmedia.org where you can explore more of art media's podcasts You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel Follow the youtube link in the show notes also to receive updates on new episodes Please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to arcmedia's weekly newsletter For more ideas from the Shalom Harman Institute visit our website at shalomharman.org