Isn't It Ironic, Dontcha Think?

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with the Elizabeth Smart on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're Bookshelf and you're for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture. With your favorite writers, book top creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed, so I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear the new episode of The Hage Onus Podcast? We are at D23, so we'll see who stops by. The cast of Frozen Stopped By. Kristen Bell, Josh Gad, and Adina Menzel. I audition for Frozen. What? For Kristoff. They said, "Okay, what are you going to be singing today?" I said, "I don't know." This has been why you didn't get it. That was beautifully watched. Plus, Jon Stamos, Hayden Christensen from Star Wars, and more. And I guess I can share that. Oh, listen to the latest episode of Hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to The Podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry Bears here too, and this is Stuff You Should Know. The iHeart Radio. It's a little on the noses, isn't it? I think so. Oh, sorry. Let me try again. The. Isn't it ironic? Don't you think? Yeah, well, I mean, if you are our age or above, maybe a few below. Or a weird younger person? Yeah, you might have made fun of Alonus Morset for that whole thing. Because I remember at the time, like, people dissing on that song because they were like basically none of what she mentions is ironic. No, rain on your wedding day. I mean, yes, it's not expected, but it can be, you know, it's a pretty. It's very possible. It's just bad luck in that situation. That's one good example. Yeah, what else? A free ride when you're already there? No, not really. No, basically nothing that she said was technically ironic. But the fact that Alonus Morset, Canada's greatest hero, felt okay with basically saying, "This is all irony and ironic. It's so much so that I'm going to name my song, ironic." That just kind of goes to show, like, how wide open everyone's interpretation of what irony is is. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of notoriously hard to define. Olivia helped us with this and she, you know, the other sort of cultural example she gave initially was reality bites. And in that movie, it's like, it's not a plot point, but I mean, it's sort of not a plot point. But at some point, when owner writer, you know, is asked to define irony and she really can't. And then Ethan Hawke, who, you know, at the time was supposed to be like this super cool guy. But, you know, that movie, the way that movie has aged, like, you look back and you're like, he was kind of a big jerk in that movie. Yeah, I saw something about that that Ben Stiller was actually the nice guy, but he was, you know, part of the establishment where Ethan Hawke was not totally nice, but he was like the cool dude. But he was like the guy that she wanted, right? Yeah, that's the irony of the movie. But yeah, Ethan Hawke, he kind of makes her feel dumb by, like, defining irony really plainly. It's when the actual meaning is the complete opposite from the literal meaning, which is, you know, at the time, it seemed like, oh, how clever, but it's really not just to read some explicit definition of one type of irony to prove your smart is, they miss the mark and retrospect. Sure. And even still, like he's talking about such a narrow definition of irony that he might as well just kept his darn mouth shut. Yeah. Yeah, but that's kind of, like he said, the whole point of this is a really hard thing to define. I think Livia did a great job with a tough topic and like, you know, looking at it from a historical perspective, I think helps. Yeah, I just wanted to jump in. I was silent because I didn't agree, but I want to say Livia did a great job with this. I think this was a bit of a vision quest maybe for her. I don't know if that's the right term, but it was very difficult assignment. Yeah. You've been throwing out a lot of these very esoteric topics lately. Yeah. I don't know why. I guess I don't know why. I know you think it's because I just turned 50, but I don't think that's it. That wasn't going to say that. Okay. Well, at any rate. Yeah. This is something that I've wanted to do for a while. And some people have written in and asked for it, but I think one of the reasons I wanted to tackle is because I don't know exactly what it is. But also in the like myriad ways that it's played like a really big role in shaping society. In fact, there's this whole kind of schism between the ironic and people who resent the ironic. Yeah. As we'll see that dates back hundreds of years. So let's get into it, Chuck, because irony is nothing new. Like the 90s Gen X slackers didn't invent it. No, not at all. The term itself comes from a character actually, not really a thing yet in classical Greek, I guess drama. The character was E-I-R-O-N with a little rooftop over the O. A little puff of smoke coming out the chimney. Yeah. Iran, I guess, or Iran. I'm going with Iran. Well, I guess it would be the second letter, but that's German I don't know about Greek, but yeah, irony. Let's go with Iran. Okay. But that means one who disassembles. And that was like, like I said, that was a character in a lot of Greek drama and comedy and comedy writers would insert that character to accomplish like a dramatic or comedic goal. And one of the ways that they would do this, they would do it in a lot of ways. One of the ways was as sort of a sort of like a detective who would play dumb in order to sort of sniff someone off the case and reveal them as a fool. Right, or a fraud or somebody who knows much less than they like to think that they do. Yeah. And in a way, you're setting them up to make a fool of themselves. You call it like paying out the rope that somebody's hanging themselves with essentially is what they did. And I guess Plato used to love this stuff. He would take off his robe and like twirl it over his head. Yeah. He would get so excited about using Socrates as an Iran. And so Socrates was basically like, he would be really like smarmy, overly flattering essentially. It basically saying, please, you know, so much please teach me and then he would eventually roll us assemble them in their entire identity. Yeah. And Latin that Iran word became eronia I R O N I A. And there was a Roman orator in the first century named Quintilian who said, it's basically saying something contrary to what you mean, which is what Ethan Hawke would kind of intimate many years later. And the Europeans in the middle ages, they were like, yeah, that's that Quintilian definition is the one that we're going to use. It's like a like an allegory on a contradiction basically. Yeah. And it was basically a device of speech. It wasn't like a whole book could be ironic. Yeah. Or a whole TV show could be ironic in part because there weren't TV shows back then, but you get the point. It's like a one liner. It was yeah, exactly. That's what irony was. And it was, it was no broader than that. It was a very narrow definition for hundreds of years until the Renaissance came along. And they, the Renaissance people were like, OK, we really like this stuff. They, they, I guess got back into secratic irony, which was using people playing dumb essentially to show how actually dumb someone else was. But they also identified the irony of fate, which is far and away the greatest type of irony. It's also called situational irony today. And that's the one where instead of somebody making a one liner or Socrates playing dumb, this is like the universe does this to you or life does this to you. Just something happens that no one had any control over, but it's just indisputably ironic. And that's, that's to me, that's the money irony. Yeah, I think so too, because it's a recognition of a thing that happened that wasn't like set up or contrived or written. Right, written that to be clever or something like that. So I'm with you. Totally. And I think that that's a big distinction is we'll see like being clever and being the hapless subject of irony. Yeah, that's a big distinction. Yeah, for sure. The German Romantics really got into it. Again, they, like most people had a lot of. trouble defining it, but they were very into like, they were into it in a sense of like, hey, this is how we can question conventional wisdom by throwing out ironic viewpoints. Yeah, and the way that they did it, so I was looking into this because I didn't, it took me, I'm like, what are they talking about? Essentially, the romantics were the first postmodern people. They were the first to basically say, hey, you know, life, have you ever stopped and thought about life like are there other ways life could go? What are other things you can do with your life? And they were essentially like the first to challenge conventional wisdom in the West as a group. And they essentially became, they they prized irony because to them that was a way of like, thinking about things of like, turning things over in your mind. So that's what the German romantics were into. And there were opponents to that who were like, yeah, no, this is, you're going down a really bad path here. Yeah. One guy in particular, George Wilhelm Frederick Hegel, he was a German philosopher, but not a romantic. It was like, I don't like any of that stuff. And I think he, it seems like he kind of saw it as like a sort of a smart, unlucky way to go through life. Like you're putting yourself above someone else and you're not committing to anything kind of like the like hipster irony now, maybe right? Exactly. Yeah. Kind of like, you know, coming up on somebody that, oh, you love your life of milk and cows. I guess that's all there is to life, huh? Yeah. Yeah. So that was Hegel Kierkegaard, who was the Christian ethicist. He, he really hated irony as well. He called it infinite absolute negativity. Yeah. And so in the way that Hegel like identified hipster irony as being just annoying and kind of looking down on people, Kierkegaard kind of took that and multiplied it by all the people doing this and found like you could actually as a society lose your way and like lose meaning to life if you examine stuff too much rather than just living it. And so he essentially predicted the postmodern age, which we're in right now, that loss of meaning that happened because people started thinking about the possibilities that are out there, not rather than just actuality. Yeah. For sure. As far as like, you know, as time marched on in the 19th and 20th centuries, it became a big thing in like the literary world. There was a essay in 1833 from a classical scholar, an English scholar named Konop Thurwall, who he was into the irony of fate, meaning like you said, that's what we call situational irony now. But he was doing that through the lens of like, you know, works of literature basically. And that's where we get dramatic irony basically was from him, which is the idea that the audience knows something that the characters don't. And when that plays out, that's a dramatic irony. Right. And he retroactively applied it to edipus rex. Lots of irony there. There really is. There's a lot. So there's some in that. So King Leus and Queen Jacosta get rid of their baby because it's been predicted that their baby's going to grow up and kill his father. So they're like, well, let's get this baby away from us. Well, by doing so, their kid grew up without knowing who his father and mother were. So he he actually grows up to slay King Leus without realizing that this is his father. So it happened anyway. They maybe if they had brought him up and not given him a way, he wouldn't have killed them. That was a pretty big ironic twist in that whole play. Yeah. I think if Alanis Morset had a sung lines like that. It's like edipus. That's right. Killing is dead. And then there's more irony heaped up on on top of that, which is later on, of course. He didn't know that he had killed Leus. So he seeks vengeance against his the King's murderer who is himself. Right. And then there's also a bit of dramatic irony. The audience knows that edipus is eventually going to clause on eyes out. Yeah. At one point, he mocks a blind man for being blind, which is just cruel, no matter when you're speaking. I'm sure the audience was like, oh, yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, like there's a lot of irony. And here's this is the thing. So what was the guy's name again? I know it's made up, but kind of with Thurwall. Thurwall. Yeah. No way. That's real. The first thing is weird. So Mr. Thurwall basically shows like here's irony. Here's irony too. Here's irony. But if you pinned him or anybody else down and saying, great, can you make a universal definition for irony, I'm sure he would have thrown his hands up. And that's just it. I think when owner Ryder even says in reality, but it's like I can tell when I see it, I know it, but you can't really come up with a good universal definition for it. But you can go back and be like, that's ironic. That's ironic. It's almost like humans have a innate like sense of irony. Yeah. And it is funny now that I think about it that is so ironic that Ben Stiller was the good guy. Because he was genuinely like a really nice guy and treated her very well in that movie. But yeah, he was part of the establishment. So he wasn't cool. And Ethan Hawke, like, what's he doing? Not Ethan Hawke, but what would that character be doing now? I don't know. I mean, I hasn't said to say, but I'm sure he would probably still be right. He would be very much in love with his own mind or intellect, I'm sure. So he'd have a podcast. Yeah. I think you nailed it, actually. All right. Let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about irony a little more. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. I survived. And I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart. And these are the survivor files. You just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up. Don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Their stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Pro's Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is the Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro's Society on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Hey this is A's Davenport and Sean Clements. We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook on the Big Money Players Network. Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. Each week we talk to someone in show business, aka the biz, and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, not that great. I actually, can you help me shape this? How about we flip it on his head? No. How about we flip this around? Okay. What is the surprise one, man? Actually you think the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. Adam Scott, this entire time you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. I would never let go of that. I would never set expectations for something like that. If the universe allows for something like that to happen, I am open to it. I'm always going to accept, you know, Danny McBride, fine. Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity exuding. I could smell it walking on the hallway to be honest with you. I was like, is that weird? No, it's fragile masculinity. Ben Stiller, no. I think there's a lot of times out of context, people don't get it or even know what a circle is. You know what I mean? Like you're like, I'm just so stupid. Everyone's so dumb and fake. Right, fake and also not interested or just like - Oh, I've got my life, I don't care about your life. - And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. - Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - All right, so we've defined, or at least talked about a couple of different types of irony, but here comes some more everybody. Verbal irony, this gets a little dicey because verbal irony and sarcasm are, like sarcasm is sort of a way of being ironic, but to me it's different because there's a smarminus to it. - Yeah. - They're lumped together a lot, like sarcasm and irony. So if you were to say, like if it's really raining outside and the weather's really bad and you're like, "Yeah, nice weather." Like that is irony, it's got a little smarmin, but not a smarmin is like, "Oh, that speech you gave was so great." You know, to a bad speech. Like that is super sarcastic and smarmin. - Yeah, I think, you said, if one of us said that irony is based on one who disassembles, sarcasm is to tear flesh, and that really kind of goes to show you, they both do something similar, but one's way more vicious than the other. Yeah, sarcasm is pretty lame. It's just, I think it's meant to be a phase in the development of a person's sense of humor, it's supposed to come early on and be abandoned eventually, but some people don't abandon it, and they love Deadpool. - Yeah, I try not to be sarc-- - Oh, I take that back, I don't try to not be sarcastic, I think it just sort of fades away. I'm sure I am sarcastic sometimes, but I don't know, it's not the greatest look when you're a certain age. - I can't think of any of you being sarcastic. - Oh, you can't. - No, I can't. - You're not very sarcastic either, I don't think. Unless you're just trying to get a laugh or something. - Sure, yeah, I mean, that's definitely, my humor is fairly ironic, but I like to think it's not at the expense of anybody. And usually, if it's at the expense of somebody, it's at the expense of myself, like-- - Yeah, self-deprecate. - Yeah, that's another way to put it, sure. That's how Ethan Hawks character would put it. - Here's a word that I never knew, but I knew it was a thing. I've never heard of lightities before. - Me either. - But that's a word, that is like a verbal, like understated verbal irony. Like if someone asks you, if you like something or not, that you really, really hate and you say like, not the biggest fan of that, that is called a lightities. - I'm so glad you're the one who said that, 'cause that's not how I was gonna pronounce that word. - You can say lightotes? Well, I looked it up, 'cause I get, I'm frankly tired of being made fun of unless you're a male. - You're a professional. - I'm getting there. - I'm just a, well, I'm just a lump. - So yeah, it has to negate what that like, I don't know any better way to put it. Like yeah, I'm not a big fan, meaning you really don't like something. So it's an understatement, but at the same time, you're negating the fan part. I don't fully understand it in the sense that like if you think about something too hard, like economics, you can suddenly like lose it and not understand it anymore. That's kind of how that is with me. - Yeah, just breeze right on by the light of tease. - Exactly. Let's talk situational irony, 'cause this is the whole reason for this episode, man. Like there's nothing more delightful to me than a really good, ironic twist. - Yeah, and I feel like this can be played, and well, I mean, it happens in real life, of course, but can be played in literature and movies and TV and stuff like that is like a come up in sometimes. Like sometimes it can be very sad when situational irony strikes, but sometimes it's like somebody gets what they deserved in an ironic way. - For sure, and then sometimes it's just like an impressive other times, most of the time, if not always, there's a black comedic sense to it. Or if you look at it deeply enough, there is something funny about it. Even if it is sad, even if it is tragic, if it's still ironic, there's something more to it. There's something more valuable to it than just what it is on its surface. Like a lifeguard drowning, right? Like that's sad, of course. Like if you put yourself in the, if you know the person's name, you know the situation of their death, like they were trying to save someone and they drowned, they had like this life ahead of them, they left a child behind, you know, as a survivor. Once you know that stuff, it's not funny at all, but if you just step back and you say a lifeguard drowned, there's something just in that irony, there's something blackly comedic about it. There's something funny about it. I think everything has something funny about it. - Yeah, I mean, I laughed instinctively the second you said a lifeguard drowned 'cause I didn't know it was coming. - Yeah. - It just made me laugh. There's nothing funny about anyone dying, but since that didn't really happen and you just said it, it was funny. - But even so, it's not like you're celebrating that person's death by laughing or you don't care that that person died. This is something different, it's separate. It's larger than that person's individual death in that sense, but it's tied directly to it. - Yeah, I saw a comedian the other day. I can't remember her name. What was it? But she was talking about like her worst death would be to be like the only person that died in a plane crash. And I couldn't figure out where she was going. I was like, I sort of get it, but I don't fully get it. And then she was explaining like, when you see the news reports, those are plane crash and everyone's horrified and then it's like one person dies and everyone's like, oh, well, that wasn't that bad. You're just the one person. - I mean, you need to introduce me to that friend. - It's not a friend, it was a comedian. - Oh, well, make friends with them and introduce me. - All right, maybe someone will write in there. Or maybe she will, you never know. - There's some others too, like a fire station burning down. - So funny. - Especially if no one got hurt. Well, that's what I'm saying. There's like, you might not think it's funny. I don't even think it's particularly funny. It's ironic, but I can't tea. There's somebody out there who finds that funny. That's the thing. It's not always funny to everyone all the time. It could just be one person. My theory is that everything is funny at least to one person. - No, I totally agree. And I think what's getting me here with this kind of irony being played when, I think there's sometimes karma attached to it. - Yeah, like that lifeguard hit a drifter with his car and drove off. - Well, which kind of plays into the next one, which is cosmic irony, which is a little bit like a carmic irony in that it's situational irony where the gods are whatever fate calls something. - Yeah, that's essentially the same thing. If you ask me, a lifeguard drowning or something. George Carlin, did you see his example? - No. - Oh, I sent it to you. George Carlin, he basically did a bit where he explains the difference between what's ironic and what's actually not ironic. May I? - Yeah, you sent this to me. - Yeah, I did. He basically said this. He said that if you are a, let's say there's a diabetic and he's on his way to buying insulin and he gets hit by a delivery truck. If the, yeah, see, if the delivery truck was carrying sugar, that would be like poetic and pretty funny, but just bad luck really according to George Carlin. He said if the delivery truck was carrying insulin, now you've got irony. I think both of those things are ironic, whether sugar or insulin, but that was his distinction. - That's good. Well, we've already talked about dramatic irony. That's the next one on the list. And that's again, when the audience knows something that the characters don't, and Hitchcock had a very famous example of, like less you've seen, with a couple of characters in a restaurant diner, just talking about whatever and a bomb goes off under the table. If the audience doesn't know that's happening, it's some great tragedy or a shock. If you do know, I mean, it still might be a tragedy, but it's not a shock. If the audience knows that that bomb is under there and all of a sudden that adds this real dramatic tension to what's happening. - Yeah. Or like the audience knowing edit piss will tear his eyes out and they're just kind of laughing at him, laughing at the blind guy, right? Like you gotta come in your way, buddy. - There's another one I didn't ever hear this term for. I've always heard it as breaking the fourth wall, but that is actually called romantic irony. And it's where the author, the narrator, I guess probably even the character basically breaks out of the realm of fiction and addressing you, the reader or the viewer. That's romantic irony. And the reason I think it's called romantic based on the German Romantics and their love of irony. that in its purest form, the author is basically stopping the narrative to talk to you the reader and say, look at how this guy's ideals and hopes and dreams are so far off from reality. - Right. - I take it as like them spelling things out for the reader, I guess. - Yeah, and like, you know, for the sake of comedy, like it made me think of like Albert Brooks and broadcast news. - I don't remember that. - You don't remember seeing that or you never saw that, or you don't remember that part. - Is it the one where I'm mad as heck and I'm not gonna take it anymore? - No, that's a network, broadcasting news. - Oh, okay, no, I've never seen it. - It was a James L. Brooks Romantic comedy. One of the great movies by the way. - I gotta see it then. - Especially if you like Albert Brooks. - I do, I love him. I think he's an international treacher. - That's right, he was obviously born Albert Einstein. Fun fact. - What? - That was his name. - Yeah, the two fun facts about Albert Brooks is he was Albert Einstein and changed his name. And the other is that he was brothers with the Super Dave Osborne. - Wow. And the outsider's just written by a teenage girl. They messy him. - It's the fact of every podcast now. - Yeah. Wow, thank you for that, Chuck. - Yeah, see broadcast news, it's great. Like other great movies. Have you ever seen Network? - Oh, yeah. - Okay. - Yeah, I liked it too. - I didn't say I liked it. (laughing) - No, I loved it. - Okay, so getting back to irony. You know one thing also, I'm proud of us for not being like, was that ironic? Were you being ironic? We're not doing that. And that would have been really annoying. So kudos to us if you ask me. Maybe we'll edit that out. I was just thinking in my head how funny it would be if I was just about to say that. And like the words were sitting in my mouth. That's why I was being silent. No, I was just thinking that would be funny. Back to Iran specifically though, right? - Yeah, so chronic irony is what it's also called or philosophical irony where, you know, again, you're playing, I think dumb is usually the way that it's most often described or presented but it can be other things. Like I think Randall P. McMurphy, Jack Nicholson's character from One Flore over the Cuckoo's Test, is considered philosophically ironic by being a sane person in a mental hospital and in doing so he shows like just the unjustness of life in that mental hospital. Seems a little, I don't know if office is the right term, but that's that, like here's where it's like, okay, maybe we need to come up with other terms for stuff like this and stop using ironic like that. - Yeah, that's where like when we get into talking about satire and parody, like they always use irony. So I guess it's just sort of like a subgenre or maybe, you know, not a subgenre, but it's own thing where irony comes into play. - Sure, let's talk satire. I have a pet theory that satire is actually super harmful for society. - Oh, interesting. I love satire. - It can take, I like parody, but satire I feel like it can take the actual anger and discontent and just release it, it acts as a pressure valve for society. Okay, we'll just laugh all this off and then the status quo can continue on. And I think it actually is harmful to society. The better and more widespread the satire is, the less change will actually come along. Like society has to go through really rough periods where it's really upset to affect real change and satire kind of prevents that from happening. - I guess that's a kind of satire 'cause there's so much comedic satire that you love in your life, you know? - Okay, I'll go with like spinal tap. - Okay, I mean the Simpsons is a satire. - Is it? - Yeah. - Do you think? - I don't know, are you saying is it ironic, do I think? - No, no, I mean, we agreed to not do that. I mean, really, it is, I think it's a satire, isn't it? - I don't know, man. I think what a satire of like American, life and family and stuff. - Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that. I like, I definitely see where you're coming from. I don't know. I always kind of associate satire almost exclusively with like having a really important message, which is why to me, it takes that important message and kind of uses it to deflate any true feelings about it. - Oh, interesting, okay, like social satire. - Yeah, yeah, all right. - Yeah, like I get where it's coming from too, where it's saying like, hey, we need to let more people know about this, a good example is, oh, who was it? - I think as Jonathan Swift, the pamphletier or essayist, I think he came up with a modest proposal in 1729 and he'd written a bunch of essays about how the Irish were starving and how they needed help and he just got crickets in return and then he wrote a modest proposal and then he basically talks about how the Irish just need to eat their babies and that will solve the hunger issue and a lot of other problems too. Then he got all sorts of attention for that. Of course he got attention for it. It's nuts in some ways. It's funny in some ways. It's just important and it's very attention getting but how much change did it actually affect? I don't know enough about 18th century Irish history to tell you how much change it affected but based on my understanding of satire over the years, especially sociopolitical satire, it probably didn't actually have that much effect aside from making more people aware of it but does that actually make things change? That's my question. Yeah, that's a good question. Thank you. I think the proponents of satire would say just getting the conversation around it going is the point and the change comes because of those conversations but I'm not taking a stance either way. I see your point. Fair enough. At the same time, one last thing. My position isn't that we all just need to put up with the status quo. That's what I'm saying. That satire inadvertently can make the status quo continue on when it shouldn't. Yeah, you're talking about getting some bricks and baseball bats and really doing something. That's right. Taking it to the streets as Michael McDonald said. Camp is another sort of irony and that's a little more of the, I mean, I love camp. So I hate to lump it in with the hipster irony but that's kind of what they're talking about like an ironic appreciation of something. If something is campy, that's kind of what you're talking about and a lot of cases. Right. Yeah. John, speaking of the Simpsons, John Waters was on the Simpsons once. Oh, yeah, I remember that one. He gave a throw away a definition of camp. He said, the tragically ludicrous, the ludicrously tragic and then Homer said, oh, yeah, like when a clown dies. John Waters goes, well, sort of. That's funny. Yeah. All right. I think that's a good death for a break and we'll be right back right after this. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. They are abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. If your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Pro's Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm gonna have to look up this story. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. So like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is the Trojan horse, whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro's Society, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is A's Davenport and Sean Clements. So a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, not that great. Actually, can you help me shape this? No. Okay. Actually, you think as the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. I would never know that I have never set expectations for something like that. I was like, "Is that what you need?" Nope. It's fragile masculinity. Yeah. Ben Stiller, no. I think it's so stupid. Uh, everyone's so dumb. I'm excited for you. And fake. Right. Fake and also not interested or just like, "Oh, I've got my life. I don't care about your life." And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. Okay, Chuck, so I think I said, like, I feel like humans have like a hard wire intuition for noticing irony, for being able to pick it out. And it's been used as a device for a really long time so much so that it's been found that verbal irony saying the opposite of what you mean is basically universal, which is great. And kindergarten children have been shown to be able to pick up on verbal irony, like at that young of an age. What's kindergarten age these days? Like five? Yeah, like five or six, I think. Not bad. Yeah, agreed. I love the example Olivia uses to she's like every society comes up with ideas like nicknaming a big guy tiny, but I love that. I mean, that is sort of a universal thing. Like, I love the idea that in any culture, if you had a very large person and their nickname was whatever that word is in their language for like small or tiny, like everyone gets that joke. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it is universal and it's been used as a device long before anybody identified it. What irony was? Like, remember, at Epistrex was written long before irony, even those dripping with irony. So that in and of itself kind of shows that it's definitely been a part of human communication. And I guess human understanding of the world for is from time immemorial. Yeah, for sure. He gives a lot of examples. One of my favorites here is, and I think we've talked about the Zhuang Z before, the Taoist text. And this was in like forced entry BCE. So it was a very long time ago. Right. And there was a story about a tree that was so twisted and gnarled that it couldn't be used for lumber. So it was useless. And because it was so useless, it lived a very long life as a tree, which is like that was the tree's purpose and use, you know, right there. I think that just proves my everything is funny in some way, theory though. Well, that that's the Zhuang Z from forced entry BCE, not a noted comedic dome. There's tricks. Your stories also are always dripping with irony and they are super duper old Tom so well way older and Tom Sawyer, but the one that always comes to mind for me is Tom Sawyer using reverse psychology to trick his friends into taking over painting the fence for him because he talks about how much fun it is and he doesn't want to share. So now all of a sudden, they all want to paint. So he just gets to sit back and kind of laugh at him. That is really old archetype. I think Joseph Campbell even talked about that in a whole mythology series, which I've not seen. Have you? No. Well, I have to watch it together. He knew a thing or two about archetypes. He did. He was an archetype type. Don Quixote, of course, is maybe the first modern novel. There's a lot of irony in that. The biggest one is just that Quixote himself is a very elevated sort of ideas about his adventures and the reader knows the whole time like this guy and it's got that kind of thing. So that's also sort of dripping with irony. Yeah. His favorite ironist of all time is Oh Henry. Well known as the master of like the ironic twist, like the gift of the Magi. Didn't get any better than that, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's just the one that everyone's read. Every one of his stories has an ironic twist to it. You know it's coming and he's so good at it, you very rarely can see what's coming. But it's never, you know, quickly assembled at the end out of whatever parts are at hand. It's the point of the story all the way along. He was just a master of it. And then another one that always stands out to me is the monkey's paw. Yeah. Do you do you remember that one? I remember a little bit about it. Remember being scary like the monkey's paw moves in your hand or something. Yeah. Yeah, granted wishes, but those wishes always came with an ironic consequence, like the father wishes for a hundred pounds sterling and he gets it. But it says compensation because his son died at a factory, so like all of the wishes, the way that they're granted are in ironic twists that don't pan out very well for the family involved. Yeah. And sometimes that's funny, but a lot of times it's tragic. Like I don't know if the gift of the Magi was supposed to be funny. Yeah. Good point. You know? But yeah, lots of ironic twists. I guess he was the emnight Shamiland of the literary world. That's right. There is something to that though. If you're known for something like when you go see the emnight movies, you're just waiting for it, you know? Yeah. But he's like, oh Henry, like you don't really see it coming. Hmm. Sometimes. Some are better than others. I will watch every single one of that guy's movies. I'd love them. Yeah. I mean, they're entertaining. Did you finally see the one at the concert, the pop star? I did. He's a daughter who directed it, right? No, no, he directed it. Oh, he did. She was in it. Oh, she was the pop star? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was entertaining. It went just totally nuts at the end, didn't it? Yeah. I mean, I thought it was a very fun, bad movie. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say all these movies are bad movies, but he has made some bad movies, but yes, agreed. They're all fun. Yeah. I didn't see the last one old or whatever. It's fine. It's good. Yeah. I mean, it's an M Night Shyamalan movie. It's a little, like a bottle episode. It's a little-- Oh, okay. It all takes place on this beach almost entirely takes place on this beach, and that gets a little old, as it were, but, you know, it still moves along pretty quickly. Yeah. And I remember early in his career when it was like he was the twist guy and seeing--and there are some spoilers coming, everyone. If you haven't seen these very old movies. Okay. Uh, when--was it The Village, uh, yeah, that was what it was called. Like I remember seeing that movie, and the whole time, I'm like, this is so like going to be revealed that it's modern times. Like I was just waiting on it. I had--I was told--maybe that's it. Maybe I'm just like super dupeable, because I had no idea that was coming. I knew that the sick--the twist to the sixth sense, because some Jackass told me before I went into it, which was mean. And then, uh, all the other ones, I'm like, what? Every time. Which I love. Did he say, hey, have you seen that new movie where Bruce Willis is dead the whole time? Yeah. Uh, I don't think that makes you dupeable. I think that means you're like into it, and like, in park--park that stuff. That's a good trait. Okay. As long as it's not on the dance floor. Right. And I'm parking on the dance floor. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Chuck? Uh, well, I mean, we can keep going through literary examples, but we should probably definitely mention catch 22, because we'll get emails if we don't, because that sort of--well, it's a satire, of course, so you hate it. But it's built on irony. The whole title is an ironic paradox in that the catch 22 of the film is that anyone who wants to fly in like a combat mission as a pilot in war should be removed for mental health reasons. But if you try to get out of it by saying like, I'm a section 8 or whatever, then you're obviously sane for doing so. So you have to fly. That's right. You should be flying. Yeah. It's a great, great ironic. paradox of all time. And so I, okay, I figured out why I disliked satire because it hit you over the head with, like, this is a problem. This is wrong. Of course it is. Like, I think that's what I don't like about it. I already know there's a problem with that. I already know there's something wrong with it. I guess I've never seen satire that I didn't already agree was a problem. So therefore there's never any satire that really changed my mind about something. Oh, yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying. Yeah. Sometimes I just have to reflect on something for 10, 15 minutes and then I come to the basis of it. Then you got it. Something that I missed that I don't know if you noticed too, but in Fight Club, apparently it was meant to be ironic in that like these guys were rebelling against society and like a conformist society. And then in doing so, they ended up creating their own fascist society of their own, you know, club. Yeah. Super conformist. Sure. So did you recognize that that was basically the theme of the movie? I don't, you know, when I saw that movie, I was in my 20s and so I think I was just more like, I think I just more like like the movie at Chase Value and was like, oh my god, here we go with spoilers again. It's like, oh my god, there was no Tyler Dirt in the whole time. Like it it's just kind of like I thought it was a cool twist. Yeah. But yeah, like being older now and looking back, it's like, yeah, these dopes wanted to, you know, they're doing the very thing that they said they weren't, you know, we're fighting against. Right. Yeah. I was totally lost on me too. I was too busy going like, maybe I should wear like floor length for coats and no shirt underneath. It's a good look. So I guess we can kind of get to that last point. Like whether or not irony is not a good thing. And I think overall, if I'm tossing out my two cents, which I've basically tossed out $50 already so far, I think cosmic and situational irony is great. And there's nothing we can do about it, but appreciate it. And then on the other hand, belavored human created irony, if done well, then it's great. But most of the time it's not done very well. Yeah. I mean, David Foster Wallace, you know, the great writer and essayist wrote that irony and ridicule were agents of a great despair and stasis in US culture. And that like in the 50s and 60s, irony had a like great use in breaking down the hypocrisy of the establishment. But since then, it has sort of, I think he felt like it was overused in the literary world. Yeah. And that that sincerity had kind of been abandoned. Yeah. And that even if you were being sincere, the reader wouldn't recognize it because they were so primed to write things as ironic, right? So he had a really good point. Like like Gen X really hammered the ironic thing home. And part of it was elevating yourself above other people who just kind of accepted things as they were and couldn't see the reality of something, right? And there was a backlash to that. What was called the death of irony, which lasted about 10 years, where people like Dave Eggers came along and were like, no, I'm earnest. I really am just going to share everything and wear my heart on my sleeve and you're going to suck it all down whether you like it or not. And it came across as "smarmly" to a lot of people. A lot of people consider Dave Eggers' work as very "smarmly" where it's forced earnestness or forced sincerity and it clubs you over the head with it. And there's actually a Gen Z term now for that little period through, you know, the early 2010s, where that kind of "smarmliness" was very popular, I guess, especially in literature. Yeah, is that Millennial cringe? That's a zinger. That is a zinger. Yeah, I mean, again, back to the generational look at things. I'm a big band of Eggers, by the way. I just want to say that out loud. Okay, great. I haven't read the most stuff, but I've read a couple of his books and I like them both. I like Mick Sweeney's humor a lot for a while. Yeah, for sure. And he does great work through his charity, 826 Valencia, and 826 National. I did a thing recently for them. I read like a passage from a book that a kid wrote through his charity and it was cool. They did good work. Was it any good? Yeah, it was good. Okay, good. Because they don't publish bad kids' books. That's right. Yeah, but back to Millennial cringe. That's what Gen Z is about, right? Yeah, and we should kind of wrap it up with Gen Z because they have come up with their own version of irony. They're pretty preoccupied with it, too, but they've taken it to such a degree that it's become absurdism rather than irony. Whereas irony is very well defined. It either is or it is an ironic, whatever the thing is. Gen Z just matches all sorts of stuff up and you can't tell whether they're supposed to be ironic or not by the end of it. Maybe that's their aim. Confuse the olds. Yeah, and they do a good job of it. It's called meta-irony where if you're an outsider looking in, especially if you're not in the Gen Z age group, so you're not tapped into what's going on, we have a tendency to really kind of read into stuff and try to find the answer to whatever the thing is or understand it. Yeah. And if you do that with like Gen Z, meta-ironic stuff, memes, or whatever, that'd be madness. There'd be madness. That'd be madness. I like that better. Yeah, I feel like I've been hanging on by my fingernails this whole episode and I hate those. Well, I mean, this is a tough one. Again, it's hard to define irony and it's hard to talk 45 minutes about it, which is why we talked 48 minutes about it. Good point. You got anything else? I have nothing else. All right. Well, that's it for irony, everybody, and that means it's time for listener mail. Hey guys, love the podcast. Look forward to new episodes. I wanted to mention a couple of clarifications. The first one from the white boy Rick episode was a pronunciation of his last name. It's pronounced "worshi" as in Hershey. I don't remember what we said. I don't either. Okay, it's Worshi. The second was Josh kept saying the phrase "east Detroit." White boy Rick, the Curry Brothers, etc. were based out of the east side of Detroit at the time of their prominence in the drug trade. We mentioned this because there was a city just north of Detroit called East Detroit. They're not the same place. In fact, the city of East Detroit even voted to change their name. To East Point, due to confusion and negative connotations about the east side of Detroit. Wow. Keep up the great work. We can heard from a couple of people, but that is from Mike and East Point, Michigan. Nice. Thanks a lot, Mike. We appreciate that. Of course, there was an East Detroit. Right. Yeah. Well, it's like East Atlanta is an actual neighborhood in Atlanta, which is east of Atlanta, but it's still not the same as saying the east side of Atlanta. No. And I think there's an East Point around Atlanta too, right? Thinking of Athens. No, no, no, there's an East Point, but I believe East Point is south. Isn't that down near the airport? I don't know. I have blood trickling out of my ears. All right. Let's just wrap it up. Okay. Well, who was that from? That's from Mike. All right, Mike. Thank you very much for that email. We appreciate it. And if you want to be like Mike and send us that well in email, address it to [email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture, with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, mm says, listen to pro society on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear the new episode of the Hey Jonas podcast? We are at D23, then we'll see who stops by. The cast of Frozen stopped by Kristen Bell, Josh Gad, and Adina Menzel. What? For Kristoff. They said, okay, what are you going to be singing today? I said, I don't know. That must have been why you didn't get it. You probably won. Plus, John Stamos, Hayden Christensen, from Star Wars, and more. And I guess I can share that, uh, listen to the latest episode of Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.