266: Isami Daehn | The Struggles of Advocacy, Finding Your Circle, and More "Fake Missionaries"

Trigger Warning. This podcast contains descriptions of various abusive situations. Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to the preacher boy's podcast, a podcast shedding light on decades of mental, physical, and sexual abuse within the independent fundamental Baptist movement. The testimony shared on this podcast are told from the personal experience and perspective of the survivors. Not all legal outcomes are known or final. Any suspect is presumed innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. Now here is your host, Eric Squarzynski. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the preacher boy's podcast. Sami, thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. Thank you for having me and glad to be here once a year. No, it's a year. I said this on our last interview, but I'll say it again, you live in Vegas. So I feel bad that we don't do more things. You know, when you become a Vegas local, anything over 15 minutes is practically two hours away. So this is understandable. It makes sense. But I think we should do this more. I think we should do more content because we cover a lot of the same topics. We do. Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, your private life is also very public because you're an influencer. You're talking about your story, your account is your name. So like I have the separation of I have my preacher boy's bucket. And then I've got my Eric bucket and my film and you've kind of put it all into the umbrella. Like, how do you first and foremost kind of separate like your public versus private life? I have this role that's been really helpful. And number one, I never talk about anything that I'm currently going through unless I've expressed this to either a therapist or somehow have started working on that. That way, I'm not jumping into a conversation from a place of anger or resentment or somewhere where I'm just not ready to talk. And then I also have what I call is the circle of five. Some people say that the five closest people to you are, you're going to be that average of those five people. And while I do believe that I usually take a step further. And so what I say is I only have those five people where I tell them those very confidential details. And they are very selective people. They have qualities about them that I wish I had. One of them is my spiritual mentor. She's also a really good friend. One of them is really great as having family relationships. One's more career focused and then there's a couple more that are like more financially driven. And so I have these people in my life where I can go to and they know the ins and outs of all the details. And sometimes they are allowed to tell me to reel it back in and get my life together. But it's been really helpful to have that perspective where they're watching all of my blind spots for me. And I just feel really encouraged every time I talk to each one of them. Yeah, that's that's helpful. Because like one of the things I struggle with is, I mean, the last and I'm sure you relate like the last several years has been a lot of turnover with friendships, relationships like, you know, and I find myself in a position where, you know, when it comes to leaders, especially I have a hard time picking like who speaks into what? So I guess like, you know, in a lot of ways, we can go from one bad thing to another, go from one cult to another, one high control group to another, one abuser to another. And like that cycle happens. How do you go about vetting that circle of five? Cause I'm at the press press right now going, I need to start building some of those friendships up again with new people. Yeah. But the thought of that is like, it's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I watch people very closely before I ever let them into my life anyway, almost too much. But I'm, I watch them. I watch how they interact not just with me, but other people. How do they treat their kids? How do they treat their family? How do they treat their co-workers? Are they gossiping about people when I'm with them? If that's the case, that's a big red flag. I'm not going to tell you anything about my life. So I watch these people very closely and usually it's over time where I'm like, you know what? I think I can trust this person with this detail. And it's a mutual trust, you know? And it's not like I go around like looking like you will be my next person, my fifth person, you know, it just kind of happens naturally. And I really struggle with making friends to begin with. And so that's, that's really helped me to like open my world view to as well. No, I feel that way for sure. It's in, and there's all the layers too. I think of, you know, with having a public platform, I think you have a larger public platform than I do. Oh, you know, you look at your followers. Yeah. But I think it is one of those things too, where like, I have a lot of people that come into my inbox who know me for that who it's a weird thing where people feel like they know me a lot, which they probably do. But I don't know them. So like there's an imbalance there of like, oh, they already know everything about me. Now I have to build this relationship. Yeah, that can be tough. Um, I will say none of the people that I am speaking about with the circle of five people, none of them are from social media. None of them. These are people I've met in real life. And my hopes is that if someone met me online and then say we ran into each other to coffee shop, they would be meeting the same person. I literally said somebody today. I was on the phone with him. He's like, he's like, you sound exactly like how you sound on the podcast. As we should, right? Yeah. I was like, that's kind of exactly. Yeah. The point is like, if you meet Eric anywhere, yeah, Eric, not Eric, date line Eric, trying to be on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. But so kind of talking about the advocacy side, like, um, are there things that you don't talk about? Like beyond things you've gone through, like, is there things that you don't talk about just ever? And you don't have to say what they are because that defeats the purpose. But like, do you keep some things about you that nobody knows that you're like, that's just for me. Like this interest or this hobby is like purely offline. Not necessarily hobbies. Um, I, I feel like sometimes I don't realize that I'm not sharing things like most people have no idea that I'm obsessed with, like story type video games. Like they have no idea. Um, for example, the life is strange series. I could probably replay that a hundred times. I'm obsessed with that and Animal Crossing. Those aren't things that I talk about. Um, but it's not necessarily because I'm trying to keep that. It's just because I just don't and I haven't found a way to bring that in. Right. Um, but I feel like there, there might be a few things that I haven't talked about, but I feel like they will be things I will eventually talk about. So nothing that I think I'll keep to my grave or anything. Um, no deep dark secrets like that. Um, but yeah, I, I never talk about video games ever. That would be such an easy transition to like do streaming or to talk about stuff that you talk about in that kind of format. But I would love to do that. I just haven't figured out how. Um, so, yeah. Well, I was telling you before we hit record, like I feel like I've got all these different buckets of stuff where it's like I have like my preacher boys bucket, which is like the trauma bucket I go into when I have to do the show. And then I have like my film bucket, which is like where I want to spend all my time. And then I have like all, you know, and that's like my personal kind of world. Yeah. Um, but like yours is so much a tie to like your name, you know, and I feel like I kind of been wanting to shift more into like, here's me all encompassing. But then it's also like scary. Yeah. It's a very weird world to go into. Yeah. Um, so we talked last time around the show and we talked about the fake missionary people, people who are listening, you can go back in here kind of the full breakdown of that. But a lot of people have questioned I've seen in your comments and then in the comments of the video. Yeah. And on social media, like how big is this fake machine crisis? Was your family a one off? And based on conversation, I've had with you, I feel like it's more widespread than you know, games are fun. Yeah, they're great. Yeah. Um, I can only speak from my perspective. So before anyone comes for me, you can speak from yours and you don't have to agree with me. Let me just put that out there. But from what I have personally seen, I would say about 75 to 80% of them that I have met have been people I will never, ever, ever want to support or work with. Um, and that's just my personal experience. But you have to also take an account what circle I grew up in. Right. Um, and so I'm not knocking the people out there. They're, they're forget what his name is. There is a, um, he's a social media guy that I follow. Um, I forget what his name is not with a mission board. He's just independently on his own. But he does consider himself a missionary and he like, preaches and talks to people, but his thing is he'll go out and like build homes for people. Um, like he has a go fund me or a, um, Patreon and people can send things there and he actually hires local people. They'll build houses though. Um, if people are doing like local businesses, like a cart with their selling things out of them, they'll get them a new truck, like he's actually putting in the work and you can tell that. Um, and so when I see that, it gives me hope that I'm like, you know, well, there are people doing their job out there. Um, and then there's medical missionaries, you know, so I, I can't say 100% that they're all like that. because they're not. But I would say for me, I've seen more on the majority side of people being closer to my parents. - Yeah, I was talking to a pastor this morning for like an hour and a half, super, I mean, IFB pastor, but also very much outside of the IFB proper. Like he's very independent where he's like, I don't care about speaking in chapels at a college, I don't care about getting to endorse a book that someone wrote, like he's very much like, I'm King James only in all these things for myself. And that's just because of how I feel. I don't care about it. - I'm really back then. - Yeah, which, yeah, I mean, great, yeah, and against abuse and I'm like, that's a very low bar that I want people to meet and we're good. But it is one of those things that I've noticed is like, 'cause I was telling him, I was like, I think the people that are in that IFB proper or in that network, that boys network, I do think that is like the Coltie world where I think, 'cause he mentioned broad brushing and I, 'cause I was asking, I was like, how can I communicate with guys like you and bring more people like you to be vocal? Well, also not going soft on the guys that need to be talked about. And he mentioned broad brushing and I just said, I was like, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about like the IFB, like that umbrella network. Same with the missionaries, like there are good people, I think that do good work. Missions is a concept is a long conversation, but I think it's like when you start getting to the networks of people, it starts getting like, yeah, your circle's gonna have 70, 80% that are really bad. And then like 20% that are just happen to be there that are like doing their best and then slowly, usually those people I'm like, you'll be out in 10 years. You know? So it's a messy world. And I'm curious on that note, like I'm a pretty optimistic person. I think you're optimistic in our conversations. I'm a realist. Okay. I'm a realist. So you're not cynical, but you, okay. 'Cause I can go either way very quickly and I have to keep myself centered. Yeah. So I would say I'm optimistic generally. Good. I struggle with cynicism sometimes, especially with, I would say Christian three evangelicals. Just because of the conversations, and I told the pastor today, I said, I've had five to 10 of these calls where pastors reach out with positive conversations that are constructive. I've had a lot that aren't good. So do you struggle with cynicism dealing with ministry leaders and pastors specifically for the course of what you've done? 100%. I've been at my current church for a while and I appreciate the way that they have run accountability and really vet their people. But even at that, I'm careful with who I'm speaking with. Just because someone was vetted and is a good person, I mean, you see this with schools all the time. It's like, oh, they were the best coach I ever had, turns out they were doing all this stuff on the side. So just because someone is vetted and is a good person to everyone else, doesn't necessarily mean I will immediately trust them. But at the same time, I feel like the place that I'm at has allowed me to see hope. Whereas before I would have just dismissed everyone that said to me they were a church leader. I'd be like, sure. Like how could you with everything we know? Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay, I was curious about that. Yeah. So you shared recently you were baptized. It was, yeah. Everyone was happy for you. No, no. You had mixed reactions. You had people that were happy and you had a lot of people that I think. Especially given the audience you built. And I struggle with this too. It's easy to just build another camp of people that are like just the opposite of what you were in. Yeah. And, you know, I'm in a place now. I don't know what my faith outlook is. I'd say maybe that's an area I'm a little bit cynical. For you, you grew up in a very toxic religious environment. Now you're embracing kind of a spiritual path. What does Christianity or religion look like for you now versus then? Yeah. Pidrastically different, I guess. Very, very different. And, you know, at first I just want to say I understand why people's knee jerk reaction was to be like, "Oh my gosh, she's pushing her leg." Trader. "Yeah, she's pushing her legion on us." Oh my God. I actually had some people compare me to Hitler. In the comment section it was very interesting. And I lost about 3,000 followers from that video. And some other things too, I had gone out and supported a Pride Parade for National Suicide Prevention. And so there were two sides of this coin. That's such a funny thing. Yeah, of extremes. So I'm sure that was two totally different audiences. It was very different. And they were both very angry. And it happened in the same week. So I was like, well, you know what? I can only be me. That's all I can be right now. But I feel like it's an ever-growing, ever-learning process. The faith that I grew up with, it was either or. It was black and white and that's it. It's them and us. And the only time you talk to them is for them to become us. And if they don't become us, they stay with them. Like it's just like so many walls. And I feel like the faith that I know now is very fluid. I might believe something today. And if I study and learn something tomorrow, I might realize that I was wrong yesterday. And I have to be willing to sit there and be okay with that. Because if I'm not, how in the world am I going to grow? How in the world am I going to, you know, fulfill what I believe is my calling on earth to love people to show what Jesus is about, at least from my perspective, is to love one another and love your neighbor as yourself. Like, how can I do that if I am so dogmatic in my ways and am like this is wrong? This has to be, I mean abuse obviously I will never change my stance on that. But what kind of person would I be? What kind of person of faith would I be? If I said that was it and never studied, never learned, never grew, I think I would just be a religious nut like I always was back in the day, you know, and that really creates a toxicity mindset where you can't accept other people. You can't love other people because you're just assumed you're always right, you know? And so it's it's humbling sometimes realizing that I'm wrong, that I'm wrong about a lot of things. But I feel like it's really even brought me confidence as a person. So yeah, it's been, it's been great. Has it been hard being in a religious community? Because I have to imagine there was a period where you weren't within a church necessarily or has it been kind of non-stop in some capacity attending? Um, capacity, I will say last year I went through a lot of things and towards the end of last year and to the spring I was actually working at a church and I was triggered every single day. And you left that job for that reason? I did. I did. And it's not necessarily because anyone treated me poorly, it was because I would be sitting at my desk, I was in social media and I would hear like during Christmas, there would be Christmas songs going off and I'd be in there like with headphones on like trying not to listen to these hymns, being played, they mostly play contemporary but during the holidays it's more traditional. So that triggered me and then you know Easter was coming up and I'm like, there's all these families together at church and that triggered me and I'm like, you know, these are supposed to be positive things. Yeah. And I just couldn't do any. And can be for many people. Yeah, yeah. They get to make a choice for you. Right, right. So my mental health was at a very low point and if I'm being very honest with myself and this is the part where I have to acknowledge my responsibility, I came to work every single day, just white, knuckled and frustrated and very, I came from corporate. So like I expected things to be like corporate, I expected things to run in a certain order. Whereas the team that I was with was more concerned about how are these people doing? And I was sitting there, you need to get work done. And so two different mindsets and you know, with any nonprofit, it's very different with the corporate structure. You know, you don't have the trainings, you don't have the LinkedIn learnings, all that stuff. But I was setting heavy expectations on people that were unrealistic and even on myself. No one had asked me to do any of the stuff that I was obsessing over. And so I ended up in a place where I just couldn't continue. But I'm really grateful because my former boss is still one of my really good friends and actually his fiance is someone I would consider one of my circle of five. So you know, we left on difficult terms, but the reason I left was because they were concerned for me and I can genuinely see that. I was making a call to my therapist, actually speaking with my manager because I had expressed some things that I was thinking of just passing thoughts and he was really concerned for me. So he asked me to call my therapist and we kind of made a structured plan to move forward what was best for me from there. And that's when I realized I needed to leave. Took me a while to go back to church because I was really embarrassed. But I would consider that my church home now and that's actually where I got baptized recently. Gotcha. So yeah. Yeah, I was curious about that. I know that's something for me that's been like a super raw spot is like the and I think a lot of it's because of reactions to the show has been angry Christians, you know, in covering stories that are like the worst of the worst. So like there's again, I have to pull myself on like I have a spotlight on these stories. Not everybody is part of these stories. Right. You know, it's it's a weird. It can be, but I feel like there really needs to be a call out of this stuff. And I feel like the people that should be doing it are the people in the church. But why aren't they doing it? Oh, because they know who is doing it. You know, and that really upsets me. Or they get offended because they're like, Oh, you do think all Christians like they take it personally. And it's like they feel like you're attacking them and you're not. You know, you're speaking out about things that really do happen. And I think it's this almost like identity mindset that I am the church like I. It's the brand. Yeah. It's very corporate. Yeah. Colt even. You know, it's like because I am belonging to this, you know, I don't know, next generation denomination, whatever bath is down the road church, because I am part of that, if you speak anything against that, you are speaking against me. That's how most people react. But it, you know, we don't grow that way. We don't keep people safe that way. It's funny too, because people comment so like that my church isn't like that or I'm not like that. I'm like, then it's not about you. Yeah. And in which case I'm like, it can be about you if you're not saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a funny experience. So like I was sending you like talking points last night. Yeah. And I was literally walking through, I'm not going to name where I live. I was walking through this area. And it's where I always walk through what I'm just winding down. And I had two people stop me. And they look like solar panel sales. And I was like, whatever, cool. And I was like, whatever, I'll talk. I mean, nice. And they're like, hey, what's up? And I was like, hey, nothing much. Like, over from such and such theological institute, we've got. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god. And it's one of those things where I was like, you feel good. Yeah. And then you're like, and I was like, flush. And it was like, I'm not ready for this conversation. And I was just like, I'm not interested at all, which I'm a people pleaser. So like, I'm not commentational. So I was like, squeeze those words out. And then he instantly was like, but we just want to tell you and he started going on this other thing. It's like, when you die and cheat. And I was like, dude, I'm not ready. It was like, 30 and I'm like, I'm trying to go get coffee. Yeah. That's not it. But it was one of those things where I got back. And I was telling my wife, I was like, you think you're like, pass something. And then something happens and you instantly feel that like fight or flight where you just have your whole bodies like on fire. And I just want to get out of here. But yeah, it's actually reminded me of something. Do you know Andrew Pledger? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So he helps manage a podcast about cults as well. And it was funny because I was on that podcast. And while we were recording, it was over Zoom or something like that. Somebody came and knocked on my door. And it was somebody from a Baptist church. So I had to stop the show with her and thankfully it wasn't live or anything. But we had to like cut for like five minutes and wait for them to leave because I kept ringing my doorbell. And then we went back to the show, but just for the minute. That's so fun. I was supposed to go on there. I was supposed to go on last week. Oh, really? Yeah. On indoctrination. Yeah. I was supposed to go on. And then I think I rescheduled. And I'm like, check my calendar. Oh. But yeah, I was supposed to go on there and then completely lost my voice. Which was ironic. Oh, no. Did you have coffee? No. Okay. Yeah. No, I got sick and then I just literally had my voice. It was gone. And then a bunch of like celebrities I follow were like canceling shows for losing their voice. And I was like, whatever it is. It's fair. Yeah, whatever it is. I got it. But all good now. That's all good. Good. I guess my next question would just be as far as what we do. I think there's a lot of people that go, like somebody, I have people reach out to me all the time. I've had a couple calls in the last couple of days where people go, I don't feel like I'm doing enough. I want to share more. I want to, um, you know, I have a story. I want to share it. And then I'll spend time talking to some people and it's like, they are not, and let me give full clarity before someone runs out. They're not cut out to do public advocacy work. And I don't mean that because they couldn't handle it. I'm saying like, they just want the personality to want to be public. Like, I'll talk to people who are like, I think I need to start a show or I need to do a YouTube or I need to do this. And then you start talking and they're like, I'm really introverted. I hate people. I don't like people knowing about my business. I'm like, just tell your friends and have that be your bubble. You know, so like, how do people know when they're ready to start talking publicly about these topics? You know, I don't want to tell you whether they should or shouldn't. It's their choice. But I think some people see that people do it and they admire it or they like it. But they think that's the only other option. It's like, let me have a huge Instagram or nothing at all. Oh, that all or nothing mindset. That will ruin people. That's something I'm trying to get out of. But I hear what you're saying. You know, there are people who, some people call it the gift of gab. You know, I'm very extroverted. I can talk your ear off nonstop. It's just what I do. But I've also had years and years and years of experience public speaking and broadcasting classes and acting classes and like all that stuff. So like, this is something that I enjoy and I hope I never stop doing. But if you don't have that passion where you can say that and you're like, I hope this is a part of my life forever, then it might not be the avenue. But here's the thing. I feel like people limit themselves. For example, I cannot dance at all. Okay. I could try. I've taken a few classes and maybe I'll try again. But is that what I think about 24/7? No. There are people who can do interpretive dance. All of their emotions and feelings and I know exactly what they're talking about. I don't have that gift. I don't. You can put all your emotion into it. But it's not. And yes, it's going to look like me and Napoleon Dynamis basically was going like, but some people I will watch that. If you do that performance there, it'll be a Patreon. I'll charge people. But no, I've seen people do that or even art, you know, where like they paint things and like you can feel that emotion through that painting or they write and they write something and you're just like, I'm right. I can feel that I'm sitting in this room where you are expressing how everything happened and I can see it because you're so descriptive. That's a gift or maybe, you know, it's something you create. I don't know. Maybe you can express with like Legos, which sounds insane, but like, have you seen some of these things people build? Like, I can't build the Empire State Building with Legos, but I know exactly what it is when I see it. That's a gift, you know, and I think people will look at people online and be like, that's the only gift I can have. And it's not true. And they shortchains themselves, they limit themselves and they don't realize that that's already within them. And like you were saying, like, it's okay to even stay in your bubble because some people don't want to hear from an influencer. And I'm not going to be offended by that. There are people that do not want to see, hi, there are people that don't want to see this face and don't want to hear what I have to say because they don't know me and that's okay. But people know you. And when you have something to say, you have people that will listen. And you are exactly where you need to be to say those things. Yeah. No, that's, I gave a talk like two years ago. I was like, called past the mic. And what was basically like, my whole point was, you can get to a spot where like, you're an advocate for the one person, you know, nobody knows who you are, but you're a support system for them. And then you can also be like, what I do or what you do where it's like, I'm using my platform to talk about other stories or to give a voice to people, you know, like, that's a big scale. And then I enjoy content creation. I enjoy podcasting. I enjoy storytelling. I enjoy video. Yeah. A lot of people don't, you know, and I don't enjoy, I say that, but I'm limiting myself. Like, there's a lot of things that nervous about stepping into that I also think I will enjoy that are, you know, like writing and like, there's, you know, there's a couple of things that I want to start working on that I think would be good. Public speaking is something that's been on my list forever. Yeah. Because that's something that I really enjoyed in the IFB and I really enjoyed getting to speak and motivate people and curse people to do different things maybe now than what it was then. But it's like, that's a gift I think I had that I am like trying to reclaim a lot of ways. So, you know, so it's, it's a, it's a tricky thing, but I guess it's good for people to know, like, it's not the only path. Like, I couldn't do what you do, you know, like I mentioned, you do reels and I'm like, what is that? Like, cringe thinking about myself. Yeah, I cringe when I make them. So don't worry. But it's like one of those things though where it's, everybody has to find their own path of what they're going to do. Which I think is important. For you moving forward, this has been a tumultuous year. Okay. For you moving forward, where do you see yourself in like five years as far as like, I guess who you are going to be, but who, like, who people can expect to see or what your goal is, like, if you could get one message out over the next five years, what would you want it to be? No pressure. Like the dreaded question. If you asked me, I would go, "I would love to have a book completed." Like a, like, "Yeah, yeah, I would love to have that completed." I started and then I stopped and I started and-- On this topic? Yeah. And this topic, or just like a personal story kind of thing. I would also love to be more involved in YouTube. With longer form content right now, everything's more short-term. And not just about trauma either. You know, more of like what things look like on a day to day. I think a lot of people forget that survivors have a current life. Yeah. Well, just the label. It's like you are a survivor. It's like I'm also a gamer and I also do this. And I also, whatever. I hope I guess. I'm a big rush, too. You know, like I also get frustrated in traffic. Like we all have things that are human and like just because someone as a survivor doesn't mean they do-- don't do all the normal things. Like if you saw someone say in like Target or something, if you're looking around, I think it's like what? Eight out of 10 people or nine out of 10 people, or women have experienced sexual violence in some way. At least one of those people you're seeing is a survivor. But they're living the same way you are. And I think people forget that. And they put this like really heavy, almost like a pressure on survivors. Or like you are strong. Like you were all these things. Like I am just so impressed by you. And like well, I'm honored to hear that someone would say that. And I think that's very kind of them. And I know where their heart's coming from. At the same time, I don't see myself that way. I'm the same as everybody else. I just have a different skill set than someone else, you know, who can dance. And not me like dancing like Napoleon and Dynamite. But yeah, I think people kind of forget that, you know? When I'm cooking, I get a room with one for U.K. And that's what it's called. If you're going to our corner, for the third year of the trip, we're going to the city that's a city that has the most of the food in the world. And on the other hand, it's good. It's good. It's good. Yx, gorgs, gorma, naelia, vise. And then there's the girl who's just walking. I'm just looking at the grass. But to answer your question, yeah, definitely a book. Longer form content. I also have like financial and like educational goals too. Okay. So yeah. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I've been thinking about that like a lot lately. Just like, because I think that's a piece too. And you started doing this in 20, I know you first shared your story in 2016. 17. Yeah. Go some off. Just give me six. Yeah, yeah. I pulled that just out of my brain. But it was, I know that that kind of story came out. And then like how long have you been actually, like actively kind of sharing? So content creation, why has I started in 2012? So it's been 11 years? Oh wow. Yeah. And then even before then, it wasn't consistent. But I made things here and there. Yeah. In 2011, I first shared about my anorexic past. But I didn't really go into detail with abuse or anything like that. And then in 2017, I shared a little bit about the abuse in my home. Some things that had happened. I was still very much gaslighting myself. But it came out as a blog because I didn't feel comfortable speaking about it yet. And then 2020, the pandemic hit. And I got very bored. And so I started to take talk. And I was just making videos about mental health really. And then I would talk about how there was just so much combativeness within religious organizations with people speaking about, of about their mental health. And you know, that it was okay to have have your faith in those things. And then slowly, I started feeling more comfortable actually bringing my self into these. Because before I was speaking from like a third perspective. Sure. Perspective. And then I think to end of 2021 was when I finally like openly said it was human trafficking because I didn't want to think that. Yeah. Even though I knew it was that. And it took me a while to get there. And so since then, it's been mostly about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've. I started to show in 2020. End of 2019 is when I said I'm going to do something. And then 2020 it became what it is now. But I find that it's easy to get lost in the weeds of your own creation where it's like. And I've really been seeing down the last like a couple weeks. Just really, I've been writing a lot. Just stuff that probably will never go anywhere just to myself. But it's like, what's my goal? Like, what do I want to be talking about? If I'm on a stage in 30 years, talking. What's the thing I'm talking about? You know, because I think I'll always talk about this stuff. But one of the big pieces for me has been I'm really passionate about making people think. Yeah. Because I was really upset because I had a book idea. And I might still, I might still. Is someone still your idea? No, so I had a great title. And I was going to title. And I'm going to bleep the name. It's. But one of the things that. I've just become really passionate about that topic of like. And I see it because people leave high control groups. And then they are reactionary. And just follow something else without thinking. You know, and so. I noticed that like when I was sharing about. Not knowing where I'm at my feet, journey. I had people that were just like, great. You don't need that. Yeah. And then it's like you go into their pool. And you're like, you guys don't know why you're where you're at. Aside from the fact that something bad happened. And I think I think there's a lot of people in that. It's like being in space. It's like there's no gravity. So it's literally, I think when you're in fundamentalism, you have such a strong gravitational pull. It's keeping your feet on the ground to this one topic. And I think you need to loosen that a little bit. But on the flip side, you can't just float aimlessly. And I think that is the root of a lot of depression and anxiety and stress within that. Is that you're leaving the black and white world. Yeah. And now you don't know how to operate in a gray world. Which maybe that's a, maybe there's a book in there too. Actually, I think you were the one that said this where you said that sometimes people will leave Christian fundamentalism and just will switch it over to a deep. Your default fundamentalist. Yeah, fundamentalist to like having non-religion or whatever religion to just go somewhere else. Yeah. Well, I read, I read Dawkins book. When I was in the transition from like, fun mills Christianity to just Christianity. And I was reading his book and I was like, Richard Dawkins reads like a fundamentalist preacher. Yeah. He's just preaching a different doctrine. Oh, like way to explain. You know, yeah. And the way he demeans everybody he doesn't agree. And the way that there's these very set positions. Which is why I found myself more drawn to like Mr. Frihitchens, who is a lot more engaging, off-comersations, who respects people in that sphere. You know, and I don't agree with everything he says either, but it's like I just can't operate in that black and white. Yeah. Default fundamentalism is that. Yeah. And I think no matter what you believe, like no two people are going to agree on everything. And I think that might be where a lot of times that fundamentalist mindset and group of people are terrified of that. And so if we don't agree on everything, well, we can't be friends anymore. So I can't think for myself because then I won't agree with you on something. You'll drown me if we're different. Yeah. Well, that's something too. That's funny. I didn't expect to talk about this. Oh, I'm sorry. But that's okay. But that's the funny thing when I hear pastors talk about, because I was listening to someone's critique of me. And I was a pastor saying, "Deconstruction's not necessarily bad, depending where you end up." And I was thinking about the sentence. And I've heard a lot of Christians hit. And I get what they're saying, which is as long as you end up at the truth in their mind, it's this. And I can respect that. That's what they think. Yeah. But on the flip side, I was like, I don't know that any, especially 28, but I don't know that any stage of life I want to say I've ended up here. Oh, no. So I feel like you should constantly be figuring out where you're at and what this is. And I don't know. I just, that's something that's just weighed on me a lot is like, people do not have the ability to think for themselves. They have to have a figure ahead telling them. It freaks me out with my own audience. Because I'm like, don't take everything I say. Like, don't listen to this podcast and go, here's my curriculum for the week. Yeah. No. And oh, the Sunday school materials, right? Yeah, yeah. There's the notes. Plano Graf Jesus, hey. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. That's just been on my mind. But yeah, book is definitely something that's been on the trajectory. So we'll see who wins and gets there. I'm a stealier title. I'm just kidding. Oh my gosh. No. It's recorded now. OK, I'm going to ask this one last question. Because you've done a lot of press. You've done interviews. You've done things like that. And I've been asking people more and more. Because I think it's important. What's the biggest mistake that reporters, journalists, podcasters make when interviewing survivors? There's a commercial side of it. They do need the clicks. or the views or the downloads. But also I feel like sometimes they can lead with the most lured part of the story to get the clicks. And I think that's the man never wanted to do. Like I don't use buzzwords in my titles. I think if I used youth pastor, rapes, student in my title, I know those episodes get way more views than survivor thrives after this. And it's just the way the world works. It's the true crime kind of attraction. Yeah. But I just know the survivors are interviewing too well to do that. So what do you think is the biggest mistake that people make? Yeah. So the human brain is definitely more drawn towards negative and positive. Mm-hmm. And so that's why any news outlet you see always starts with negative, always. When was the last time you saw something on your feed from a news outlet that was talking about how the rare type of dog was able to have puppies and like you're not going to hear that because nobody cares. Not only does nobody care, it doesn't really anybody in. Dog hit by car. All puppies die. That's the way they had like that. Yeah. Oh my gosh. You know, that activist come in, Peter comes in, you know, like, oh, sorry. I won't go there. Anyways. But yeah, negative things attract things more. And that's why I've had to also be careful with too as well. Because it's even easier as a creator for me to just start thinking only-- Almost exploit yourself to get views. Well, not just that, but like only think in that track because my mind is gravitating towards negative versus positive. Because that's just how our brains work psychologically. It's easier to create patterns in our brain towards negative things versus positive things. And so it has to be a human practice like to be like, OK. But to your question about things, reporters, and everyone can do better when interviewing survivors, I think it's very important to ask beforehand are there questions that you would not like me to ask? Why is that? Because they might still be in therapy. And there are things that they haven't even told their therapist yet. And why do you feel entitled to hear that before their therapist? Yeah. And I don't think people realize that they're coming across as entitled because they're just there to do a job. They may not even intend to be. No, definitely not. But they don't realize that they're overstepping a boundary with this survivor. And so I think it's important to ask number one, what are some things that I cannot talk about or ask you about in this show, Your Safety Matters First. And I think also too, it's important to at least give some type of outline before you go on the show. That way, you know, you're not going to be like talking about something way off topic. For example, maybe the show you're talking about childhood trauma. But this person had a car accident three weeks ago. Maybe they're still very traumatized about that car accident. They're not ready to go into that. And so I think it's important to have that outline, OK, we're going to talk about your childhood trauma. These are the types of questions I'm asking. Is it OK if we speak about your car accident? If no, we will not even go there. Just having that respect. And then as someone who's being interviewed, I think it's important to vocalize that as well. And even say during an episode like, I'm so sorry, I don't feel comfortable going there right now. It's OK to say that. No one can make you speak about things that you can. And you can hang up the call. Yeah, goodbye. Yes, sure can. Yeah. No, I've-- I didn't ask you this today, but I've been asking a lot of people lately, like what does a win look like for you in this conversation? Like, if you could get one thing across, what do you want to get across? Because I think that's one thing. And I know a lot of times I ask that people go, I don't know. And they start thinking about. And I think that's important too, is not just going through it for the sake of going through it, but what is-- when I reach out to you, it's like, I wanted to speak a lot about advocacy work. Because it's something that's been-- from the question I just asked to, how it affects you personally, because that's all things I want to know about. That's all things that I know people are reaching out, asking now who are starting their own shows. You mentioned Andrew Pudger. Yeah. I want to be great. I think it was the first show he ever went on. Oh, really? And seeing him evolve from then to now. He's grown so much. Yeah, it's really cool. So it's like, that's something on my mind, but it's like, a lot of times I think it's just, well, your story should be interesting. Let's talk versus what do they want to accomplish? And like you said, what do you want to talk about? What do you absolutely not want to talk about? And just staying in that realm. And then times out of 10, I think at the time people come forward, everybody talk about most everything. There's like one or two things that are like, most times it's like, just don't talk about this. Everything else is fine. It's not going to be, OK, I'm not going to answer anything. It's true. And I feel like sometimes there are things that even the survivor may not know. They don't know. It's the thing. Because trauma involves a lot of this blocking out and forgetting things when the stuff is actually there. For example, when I first started talking about church abuse, I had forgotten a lot of the things that had happened with my mom. And then as I'm starting to heal, as I'm going to therapy, things are popping up here and there. You're starting to answer questions. Right. Oh, yeah. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah. But my mind, my body, felt safer to express those things. And so it's like a gradual process. So it may not be intentional in the survivors and to leave things out. It's just that they may not be the place they can actually physically remember. Or it's been blocked out in some way, especially they have CPTSD. Yeah. I was reading Sarah Stancorp's book, Disobedient Women. I don't know if you've read it yet. But she talks about interviewing, which I love her approach. And we run a panel together and I set a message after. And I was like, I feel like we're on the same page with how we think about stuff. And one of the things that she says in the book is that survivors tend to give very clear, descriptive answers out of sequence. So it's like-- That's the truth. They can tell you-- It's the story. Yeah. The color of the wall in the room where abuse happened. Crystal clear. They can't tell you every detail they abuse that happened in that room. Or they can tell you a very specific feature of someone who was the abuser, but they'll forget a whole year of something. And it was such an interesting way of writing it, where it's like there's clarity and descriptiveness while also a lot of blind spots. And I think it's the value of sharing your story and talking is that those come to the surface. But I think interviewers that are just starting can tend to forget the human and just stick on the topic. Well, I mean, I'm glad that we actually reconnected. I think we should do it. So maybe like six months from now, we'll do that. But for people who want to follow your story and see your work kind of firsthand, what's the best place to connect with you? I would say right now Instagram, I am revamping a few different things. So hopefully in the new year, you'll see more of me on TikTok. But for right now Instagram is going to be the best place to do that. Awesome. So if you like pride rallies, baptisms, and everything between-- Everything. There's something fun. No, I enjoy seeing all of that. Because I get it makes me-- there's things you post that push back on me. There's things that you post around. That's awesome. There's things-- Push back on you. What do you mean? Well, I'm saying there's things you post that make me rethink strong-- Oh, I thought you meant that I was like me rude. OK. When you posted your baptism photo, that didn't make me go like I'm mad. But it was one of those things that where I saw it. It was funny because my immediate reaction was like good for her. But it was like-- It was an interesting way to see it. And I think it's because I know you and the things you've been through where I saw it and went, I know this isn't an empty thing. And I know there's a lot of things behind this and like-- so for me, I was just happy for the moment. And then it makes me think though in other situations where I am instantly going like, oh, I think cynically about stuff like that. What does it make sense? Yeah. It's good. And same thing, when I saw you doing the Pride March, I instantly was like, oh my god, why would you post that? You're going to get this short. Well, I was concerned because I was like, I know everybody that's a Christian is going to blow you up in the comments. So I was just panicking. I was like, oh my god, good luck with that. But when I saw it, I was like, that's really cool that you're taking a public stance. So it's like, it's a very-- I like following people that share all of that where it's like, it makes you rethink your own perspectives because someone you respect posted something. But I saw you post that and I was like, she's going to get a heat for that from somebody. Can I tell you a really funny story? OK, so-- What if I just said no? And you're like, no, and a show. Goodbye. Have a nice day. We're out. OK, so when I got baptized in that video, the lady that's baptizing me is somebody I would consider one of my circle of five. She is a good friend of mine, but she's also my spiritual mentor. And she has called me out so many times very gently. But I've also given her permission to do that. And so she's been really, really someone that's shaped me these last several months. But I was laughing and I even told her this that 10 years ago, I would have been offended if she was going to baptize me. The reason being she was a woman. And I told her that she just laughed. But there's so much that has happened. I chose to become a Christian in 2013. And it's 10 years from now. But there's so much that's changed. From number one, I would never had a woman baptize me ever. wouldn't have been wearing biker shorts to the baptism. I would never have gone and supported anti-suicide. Slippery slow. And you went. You know, just slide. Woo, you know, I would not have gone to a pride parade to support, you know, anti-suicide prevention center. Yeah. Because, you know, to be honest with you, a lot of our LGBTQ friends, they have really suffered from the experiences they received in the church. And then, and it gets so downplayed by people where I'm like, imagine if you were the messaging about anything about you. Yeah. It's like, anyway. And it's awful. And, you know, as someone who is a believer, I feel like I have that responsibility because I used to be that person pointing those fingers. And I have personally caused harm to someone who may have even considered going somewhere. I hope to God they never, never get there. But I'm partially responsible for that. And I have to use my voice to make sure I am never a part of that problem ever again. And that's why it's so important for me to speak up on these issues. And, you know, not everyone's going to agree with me. Some people are going to say things like, oh, you're, you're leading people astray. And, you know, all these things. And you know what, if you have that opinion, I still love you, but this is mine. Yeah. And I have to do what I have to do. You know, but I would have never thought like that 10 years ago. Right. Yeah. No, that was a huge, it was a huge, sorry, we're not closing episode. My bad. I thought you went. It was one of the things that pushed me away from the church early on was I would hear conversations with people. I'm sure you've heard this before where it's like the conversation. What would you do if your kid was gay? And people would have conversations and all these metaphorical. And it's like, and I would, I started getting local in those conversations where it's like, you're talking about this person. Is it if that happened? Yeah. They're basically dead. It's like, we're not going to, oh, we're never going to see them get married. We're never going to see. And it's like, why are you not going to see any of these things? And it's like, for me, it was one of those things where I was like, if you have a belief system that teaches you that I cannot love somebody or they will not be my child. Yeah. If they come out as gay, it's like, I don't want that. And what's crazy is like, I can say it just like that. Yeah. And this clip will get people that go, that's disgusting. And it's like, I don't know. That's for me. That was one of the big issues. And then, you know, the conversations, you know, when I was literally in India doing missions work, seeing while Trump was running for office, not to totally do rail this kind of thing. But like seeing the conversation and rhetoric from people, I mean, I had Christians who were saying to us, like, when we were finding India, like, you guys will brave, I wouldn't want to get on playing full of Muslims. And it's like, you know, it's one of those things that where I'm just going, this is not rhetoric that I want to be part of. This is not a world that I want to be in. And seeing the discourse around people will refugees. And it was like between how I've seen gay people get treated, refugees get treated. I was like, whatever this is is not it. And, you know, wherever I end up, I don't know. And like, I'm dipping my toes slowly into that pool again of trying to understand what spirituality even is for me. But just I just can't, if someone is getting ostracized for something that is harming nobody, I have a hard time with that. But yeah, definitely. Wow. Anyway, on that note, anyway, but that's again, that's why I enjoy falling because I feel like you're thoughtful about the decisions you make. And again, I don't need to like, I think we're very different in a lot of things, obviously, but I think also I'm more interested in building friendships with people who process things the same way, not necessarily or like come to the same conclusions through the processes at the end of the day. Like the people that think through stuff and are thoughtful, like we can end up in totally different spots. But we can also have a conversation about how we got there. And I think that's a really cool spot to be. How we grow as people. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing your process. And hopefully, hopefully we don't get canceled for everything we just talked about. But I really appreciate it. If you're listening to this, be sure to go follow on Instagram, YouTube soon, buy the book soon. We will do another interview before the book drops. My title of my book is I'm just going to just play. Thank you for listening to The Proof Your Boys podcast. 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