Isaiah Thomas: The Loneliness of Grief

Welcome to All There Is, wherever you are in your grief, you're not alone. I was talking to the friend of mine who doesn't listen to this podcast, and he's experienced a number of losses in his life, but he really doesn't want to think much about them, which I certainly understand. He asked me, "Isn't it depressing to do all these interviews all the time?" And I thought about it for a moment, and then I told him the truth, which is it's not. It's sad often, it's emotional, but these are the most real conversations that I have with people. It's one human being connecting with and learning from another about a fundamental experience that we all share. My friend didn't really want to hear more about it, but I was kind of on a roll, so I kept going, "But what is depressing to me?" I said, "What's depressed me much of my life is not having these conversations, except with myself and my head, the loneliness of that, that to me is what is depressing." I really love the conversation that you're about to hear. It's with Isaiah Thomas. He's a two-time NBA all-star, and the fact that he's five foot nine inches makes that even more impressive. But what so impressed me about him is his willingness to speak about loss and his vulnerability. Two of Isaiah's three sisters have died. His sister, Laquisha, died in 2024. And his youngest sister, China, died in 2017 on the eve of the NBA playoffs. She was killed in a car crash in Washington state. She was about to turn 23. The day after China died, Isaiah played in game one of the Eastern Conference Semifinals against the Chicago Bulls. He played with China's name, written on his shoes, and in 38 minutes, he scored 33 points. A few weeks later on what would have been China's 23rd birthday, Isaiah scored a career high 53 points in an overtime victory against the Washington Wizards. I spoke to Isaiah Thomas May 1, the day before what would have been China's 32nd birthday. Could you tell me about China? China was, man, we were connected like this. Like anytime I had to go to the gym, anytime I had basketball tournaments. Even if she didn't want to, like she was the tag alone, she was everywhere I was, always super positive and super energetic, outspoken, outgoing, and just loving, tomorrow's her birthday, actually, she would be 32. So she'd been to like every game, growing up, middle school, high school, college, anytime I could look in the stands, she's right there with my dad. So like truly my biggest fan in life. There's a great video of China and if it's okay, do you mind if we do this? Yeah, I see the apartment, man, for this draft to start, we got about 15 minutes. That was super, you, man, I've been walking around. We're just excited. I love 'em, that's how big brother, so I mean, I don't know, words can't really express on what I can say to him. I mean Isaiah are like this, like, dreams are turning reality basically, so it's just show time. That was a party for the draft, so the whole family's gathered to, you were picked, you were the last pick. Yeah. And what a cliffhanger. I remember my mom calling me around like the 56-pick, 57-pick, she's like, son, are you alright? And I'm like, I'm as good as I'm going to be, like, I don't know what's going on. She said a Bible scripture, she said, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first." Around like the 58-pick, my agent calling me back was like, Sacramento Kings are going to pick you with the last pick. And all my negative emotions went out the window because at the end of the day, as a kid growing up, my dream was to hear my name call. Whether it was the first pick or the last pick, it didn't really matter. I was blessed and I was super thankful. I'm drafted in 2011, I play for the King's Phoenix Sons, then I get traded in 2015, they're awesome. When you got to the Celtics, it was a team that was kind of rebuilding. But you really set the tone. Yeah, I just tried to change the culture. They needed a player like me and I needed an organization like them to give me the opportunity to showcase my skills. And we turned that whole season around in 2017. What happened to China? We're preparing to play the Chicago Bulls in the first round of the playoffs. A day before the playoffs start, my losses are just a single car crash, fell asleep at the wheel, really late at night driving. I didn't know about it to the next morning. We just get out of my practice. I'm going through my regular routine and one of my close friends, Avery Bradley, on the Celtics. He from the same neighborhood and he knows China. He knows my family, but he was like, "IT, come here. I got something to tell you. It's important." And when we went back in the locker room, he was like, "Bro, your sister passed away." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" So I go to my phone and I see calls from my dad, my mom, my wife. So I call my dad back and he just breaks it to me. He couldn't really talk at the time either. I've only seen my dad cry like three or four times in my life, but I've never seen my dad be that emotional. So I didn't know what to do. I couldn't go to him. He couldn't go to me. I couldn't go to anybody. It was unbelievable the news I heard. I'm preparing to play the Chicago Bulls, where the number one seed, the best year of my career and the worst year of my life, like at the same time. Had you had any experience with loss? My auntie passed away, like older people in my family, but my grandparents, great grandparents, but not like my sister and my youngest sister at that, like I would never think that would happen. She just was reaching out to me about coming out to the playoffs. She's like, "You know, my birthday is coming up as my Jordan here because she would have been 23." So all of those things are like going through my head. I remember just leaving my stuff in the locker room and getting in the car and just crying for like 30 minutes straight. My coach comes outside, security comes outside. You know, people just trying to help, but like there was nothing you can possibly do. It was like the most numb moments I've ever had. I wanted to go be with my family to try to help them out, but I remember talking to my dad that night and he's like, "You know, it's your sister who wants you to do. She won't want you to play." You coming home isn't going to do anything right now. So many people were texting and reaching out to me. Kobe Bryant sent me a long text, condolences, sorry to hear the news, but at the end of the text he said, "If you are going to play, there's no excuses and you're going to be who you always been." Kobe Bryant is my favorite player ever. So to see him reach out to me and say, "If you are going to play, you go out there and be who you are because that's what your sister would want." There was no other way around it. That's what I was doing. So then the next day, I just showed up at the arena like a normal day because anything I've ever been through in life, basketball has always been the space where it takes everything away. In the hours, I don't think about anything other than the game and it puts me in a great space. That's the only thing I knew. So I went to arena, prepared like I usually do. My body was there, my mind wasn't, and it was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Like, I remember being in warm-ups and just starting to cry because it was like, it just didn't seem real. There's a video neighbor Bradley comes over and puts his arm around you because you're crying. It was just a beautiful moment. It was just like such a human thing that he did. Now it was one of the moments where I just couldn't hold it in. I was just like, "How did this happen?" Just having someone there at that moment was like the smallest thing and it was everything. He was the one that told me the day before. You know how hard that is? His mom had passed away a year before that. That's what he knew. He knew. He knew exactly the emotions I was going through. But he wasn't like he was trying to fix it or stop it. It was just-- It was just there when everybody else was scared to be around me and it wasn't him or their fault. People don't know what to say. You don't know anything for him to really be there for me at that time. That was everything so I'm super thankful for him and all my teammates. So I played through that game. We ended up losing right when the game got over and I was at it leaving the arena. It just hit me again. The real life just hit me. It doesn't go away. And every time I would go to practice, every time I would play in a game, I would be okay. And then right when the game was over, I had no energy to speak to anybody. It was like the opposite of who I was because I was the life of the locker room. I was the energy on the team. It was killing me seeing my teammates walk on eggshells because they didn't know how to react. So I had to fake it. I had to somehow put a smile on for my teammates because it was bigger than me at that point. I was hurting my teammates. It was the hardest thing I ever had to navigate through while planning against the best players in the world and trying to win a championship. When you played, you wrote China's name on your shoe. You wrote RIP, Lil Sis, and the date of her death. That's all the reason why I'm here. All his plan was for like the only reason and it takes me back to just the YMCA being at the community center. Anytime I'm lacing my shoes up and she right there. So that's the reason why I brought those things on my shoes. She will always text me. She said show time. Her and my dad will always text me that before again since I was in high school and it was show time. It was just a different time with not her not being in there. You scored 33 points in 38 minutes in that game. You almost won. You brought the team back. Yeah I played pretty well but everybody was known. The whole organization was going through what I was going through. The reporter asked you a question in the locker room. I just want to play what you said. I'm sure Celtic fans would like to know just how you're doing. How are you doing? Man I'm just taking a day by day I'm not some days or better than others but I'm not here. It's never going to be the same. I'm not here. I so understand that. I felt that a lot of my life like I'm not even here. Like I'm half a person. When I heard that I was like I get that. I was just being completely honest and it was like there's no way I'm here. Like I'm not present. That's really how I feel. Do you feel like you're here now? Not here here but you in general. I feel like I'm getting better with things but fast forward my older sister Laquisha passed away year and a half ago. The same thing. Like the same exact feeling. So like for the tech. It took you right back to that. It took me right back. I'm one more sister left and I pray to God nothing happens there because I'm just not trying to do things on my whole and I's probably the hardest part is just being lonely. We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Isaiah Thomas. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're going to talk about rethinking how we die. How we think about death in the first place greatly informs how we live. Our guest is Dr. B.J. Miller. He's a hospice and palliative care physician. We are aging as a people. This is a worldwide phenomenon that we are aging in there for getting closer to the end of life on some level as a group. It's not at all surprising that you'll see a revving up of interest, services and also an anxiety that pushes us away from the subject and makes us cling to life. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now wherever you get your podcasts. You went back to Seattle to speak at your sister's funeral and then you flew back to Boston four hours later, you're playing the second round of the playoffs. I get in at like eight, I go home, change and go straight to the arena, game one, my tooth comes out like out of all times in my life. I've been hitting my mouth. I've been hitting my my tooth. I've been hit and it's never came out. It was literally laying on the floor. He was on the ground. He picked it up. I pick it up and I go take it to the trainer. We in the winning game one, I have a pretty good game in between game one and two. I have 13 hours of dental surgery. Game two is on my sister's birthday, May 2nd. Every shot I made, every shot was going in and the magnitude of the game, it was a closed game. We went into overtime. It was one shot where a guy fouled me and I lost the ball and it's still threw it in and we needed it. I'm like, I look up like this is insane and I've had a 50 point game before in the NBA. I've had games where it's like, dang, those shots are going in. I've seen videos of it like every like you're taking crazy shots. It was just going in and I knew it, like I'm like, that's her. I felt her. She was at that game. Me to score 53 points on her birthday in a moment where the world was watching. I didn't hear my coach, I didn't hear my teammates. It was obviously the crowd is going crazy. It was silent. I didn't hear the fans. I didn't hear now. There was no emotion. I had no emotion in that game. I wasn't there. I was in the gym by myself at the YMCA community center growing up and she's right there. That was all God and all my sister. That was for her. You were asked about it after the game. Where is this coming from, man? Where is this coming from? It's my sister. It's her birthday today. Happy birthday. She would have been 23 today. I didn't think I'd do it for her and she's watching over me so that's all her. Do you remember that? Yeah. I remember that. I remember every moment when I walked out there, I remember it was a slap, some interface. All that cool stuff, winning a playoff game, scoring a career high. That was one of the most amazing moments. You know, I understand what really matters into it, really matters. That was one of the moments that basketball just didn't matter. When your dad talked about how he didn't know how you played those games, I just want to play what he said. Yeah. I don't know how you played because I couldn't do anything. I watched some games and then I couldn't watch them anymore. It made it worse for me. Whatever basketball I have to do, we made it a family game to go and watch him, but also make it fun for the family. And now, China was missing. It's different. The only thing you think is where would she be? When you got kids, you just want your kids around. When you lose one, it feels like the world is upside down. I wouldn't built for that. Sometimes people think you're strong and you become the weakest thing around. It just wasn't right. I never cried until like five years ago. I buried all that stuff, I just moved forward and all that stuff catches up with you. If you don't talk about it, if you don't express it, if you don't turn to it in some way. And I understand that fully because when that happened, I didn't know what mental health was at that time. I didn't know what depression was and where I'm from, especially males, don't really speak about those things. And that's what I seen. So I thought that I was normal. I was 100% depressed and I didn't even know it. And I just thought trying to figure it out on my own was going to help. But when I was able to really start to open up and speak to people about these things that everybody goes through, man, I started to see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of just learning how to live with it. And I still have my days where I'm super emotional, like the other day, with my mom's birthday, her 60th birthday, and she just wished my older sister was here, and that just hurts because I'm usually the guy that can help and I can't help. She has her emotions. I have mine. It just sucks. But knowing you can go through it with somebody else, whether it's a stranger or family, it helps. I said, you were moving forward so much, just trying to move past it. And I felt like I was doing that too. And when life started to settle me down and I started to slow my mind down and able to reach out to other people who've been through these things, man, it helped in so many ways. Obviously you didn't bring them back, but it's made things a little smoother when times are really tough, being able to speak about it and trying to help my parents go to grief counseling. Do they speak about it? My dad speaks to me about it, but he's not speaking to anybody else about it yet. My mom does go to grief counseling. It's something that helps her. And I think it can help. Everybody. I try to go at least once a month after I feel way better, like it just, it helps to open up. I just always kept it in because that's just what I always done. So I just try something different. The first time you went to talk to someone, it was at heart. The hardest thing ever. I talked to somebody you don't trust or don't know, but it just made me, every time after it just made me smile, it just made me, it made me feel different. I started making the routine of trying to speak to somebody once a month, trying to learn something off of the social media that others are going through. If you're not able to speak about it to others, you're not going to find ways to live through it. They not even get through it just to live through it. Does it get better? I think you learn to navigate through it. It doesn't get better. I want to talk to my sister every day. I want to argue with my older sister, like I want to like, I want to have a back and forth with her. I want to tell my younger sister to slow down. I want to be able to laugh with them. I'll always say to my mom, I wish you can get one fold call a year and just hear my sister's voice. Just to just ask somebody, is everything good? If they can tell me that, that would make things so much easier. My younger sister didn't even get to meet my daughter because my daughter is my younger sister. Everything about her. Wow. You see her. My daughter, everything, everything. My dad says it all the time. Really? That's China. Because it really is. Every way she acts, it's like identical. It's cool because I can see her in my daughter, but that's something God did to keep her close to me. It's incredible to see two little boys, four and six and I see my dad in their eyes and all the stuff that happened to you is a little kid that you bury. It's an opportunity to kind of figure that out and be better for them. My little one has the shape of my mom's face and it's crazy, like I see it. It's so. That connection is insane, but it's real and it helps me, even just looking at my daughter's eyes. It's like, I know that's smart. I know that look. I know what you're getting into because I see it. I see it in my little sister, so when my older sister, when they said nice day, I feel like that's her. When I see a yellow butterfly, I ask my younger sister because when she passed for four straight months, every day I will see a yellow butterfly and I just felt like that was her. So those are like little signs I feel like, but I haven't hit the stage yet where I feel like I'm speaking to somebody. I haven't had that connection yet, but I believe that will happen. I have a lot of faith in that. My mom had one, like a sign where she said, she felt like my older sister, Quijess said, she's okay. And I can see my mom smiling more and wanting to go out and do things more and I want that for my dad. I want that for myself. I don't feel like I get signs from my dad, but I remember what it was like to be the little boy that I was like laying on his stomach watching TV. I remember that feeling and I remember the love I had for my dad and I feel that again. And I go back at times, too, with my sisters, just all the moments we shared, like there will be certain songs that come on the radio, it's like that's something me and my little sister for dance, too, are figuring something out. Is there a song in particular? It's a gospel song by Donnie McClurkin called We Fall Down and it's a song that on Sunday morning we would just have a whole church concert in the living room which is me and her and she would be the singer I'll be in the background. So anytime gospel music comes up, I think of her and then with my older sister, she was my protector. So anytime I get into something, no matter if I'm right or wrong, she's right. And she's right in front of me. I could be so wrong and she would make it seem like I was right and that's what I missed the most about those little things about them. I really thought I would have my sisters forever and that's where it hurts the most. My dad says, you just got to go forward, not move on but go forward. I think it's really, it's a really smart way of saying it. It's not moving on, it's not forgetting, but it's putting one step in front of the other even if it's a tiny little step. Yeah. You don't really understand how big that line was because that's exactly what grief is. It's finding ways to go forward without moving on. Yeah, it's like not moving on, it's like carrying with, walking with. Yes. Any door you go in, anything that you do, they're right there with you. I used to think strength was going forward and moving on, but that's not strength. No. That's running from, and that's what I felt like I've done for a lot of training the club. Yeah. Like you said that earlier too, and that's what grief is about is like not forgetting, not moving on, but really figuring out how to go forward. What do you say to your kids about your grief? When my older sister died a year and a half ago, that's when I was able to sit down and speak to them, especially my older boys, they're 15 and 14 now. But just speaking to them, my emotions. So when I'm on the couch crying, they're not just like, oh, let's get away from daddy, give them a space. Now I come over here to understand why I'm crying. I miss my sisters, and it's okay to cry. Never seen my dad cry when I was a kid, I just thought you shouldn't cry. I try to explain to my kids like you can be emotional. Adult men cry, that's strength, it's not soft crying. In life, you care that much, you're gonna cry and you're gonna be emotional. So not to hide those emotions at some point in their life when they hit some adversity or some type of grief, the last thing they're gonna do is hold it in because that's the worst thing to do. My six year old, like when I try to talk about emotions with him, like he, he just will try to change the subject. I was the same way as a kid and I really don't want that for him. And then my daughter, seven, she used to start crying with me, doesn't he? Is that why he is? The boys, they're out of age now, I can really explain to them, like you think your dad's all super tough and things, but like it's also tough to cry too. I guess you can do that and you can explain and speak about your emotions in this family you can. And I want them to know that when I go to my sister's funeral home and talk to her, both of them. It makes me feel that much more closer to them, I don't know, grief sucks, but there's a lot of ways around it that can help you and I really believe that. And as I start to meet more people that's open about talking about their story, it just man, it helps. In life, you just need others. You need others to accomplish things, to get through things, to not move on, but to go forward. You need others and coming on things like this is like, I can't wait to see the feedback. Just to read comments, or to hear what others are going through, because everybody has that income. And then so many people come from the environment, I come from the inner city that have nobody to talk to and going through so much, death, adversity, school, and have nobody to speak to. We're a close friend of mine who was incarcerated for 29 years. We talk about this all the time that prisons are full of grieving people. I got a friend of the servant for a crime I know he didn't do, but I speak to him every day just to let him cry out and speak about things he's not speaking about in there. So I understand that and that's helped me in ways that he doesn't even know. Just being able to speak about things to people and just somebody here without having an answer and without having a comeback for what I'm saying, it's like, that's huge in everybody's life and everybody doesn't have those things. Is there something you've learned about grief that would be helpful for others? The biggest thing is leaning on others. I get so many messages on social media like, man, you inspire me like that that moment when you're sister, when you went through that, I was going through this and just watching you on TV got me through like, I didn't understand the impact or the inspiration I had on people until after no matter how amazing your life or how bad your life is, that's one thing we have in common is losing someone. Everybody loses someone. Everybody goes through adversity and there is people who want to speak about these things and anytime I'm able to speak about my sister, it makes me feel so much better if it helps. Just because I happen to be on TV or play the game at the highest level, it still hurts and I still need people and I still need others to be able to get me through because growing up, you always feel like you can do things on your own, but like as I've gotten older, especially dealing with these situations, like, man, you need people. You need whether you can listen to somebody's story, whether you can have somebody listen to yours is needed in my life. I've never leaned on nobody other than my parents, but the ability to lean on others and finding the right people to be able to lean on has helped me in ways that I can't even explain. And it could be a stranger or somebody you've had a 30-year friendship with, that stranger can possibly help you out more than that person you've known. Don't shy away from that if that opportunity ever presents itself. It'd be okay if we played the song that you - Yeah, that China song for sure. It was called We Fall Down. I grew up in charge too, so she's doing - And I'm in the background, I'm like, "This. We." Ah, I'm sorry, that's crazy. I'll be like the choir in the background. It's lovely. It's great. That's her. And it's the same thing your dad said. I mean, go forward and not move on. We fall down, we get up. Back up again. Now we're getting back out with others. That's the plan. To keep moving and keep going forward with others. That's the only way. Isaiah, thank you so much. It's been really lovely to talk to you. Thank you. This has helped. And thank you for telling us about your family and your sisters. I appreciate you. If you have some thoughts about this conversation with Isaiah Thomas, we'd love to hear from you. You can leave a comment at CNN.com/AllThereIs. There's a short film about Isaiah Thomas and his family's experience with loss called Go Forward. It's part of a larger documentary that's currently in the works about his life in basketball career. Thursday, May 21st, we won't have a new episode of our streaming show, "All There Is Live." Instead, we'll be bringing you another new episode of this podcast. It's a conversation I had with today's show, "Cohost Schnell-Jones." Her husband, Uchei, died last May from Gleoplastoma. I talked with her about her grief and also the recent loss of her grandmother, Josephine, who died on New Year's Eve, the age of 96. What I also realized is I grieved Uchei for so long. And I'm sure somebody will know if this is a term I don't know, but like, I pre-grieved too, so because you know it's coming, even though I was in denial. And then I grieved Uchei, and so I've been grieving for so long that I will acknowledge I don't think I have truly grieved her because then it's too much. Like, you know, everyone's like, "Oh, you're so strong and you're there for your kids." And, you know, all of the things in grieving him has been so much. And so with her, I've had to like, tuck it just a little bit, like I can feel it, but like, if I allow myself to truly explore, you know, what she means to me, I might have to take a personal day tomorrow. That's coming up and all there is. If there's something you've learned in your grief, you think would be helpful for others, leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. Thanks for listening. Get ready for election night. CNN is available to stream live now with an all-access subscription. Plus, get exclusive content and interactive Q&As with CNN's journalists. Subscribe now. Visit CNN.com/allaccess.