Is This the Person I'm Meant to Be With?

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. For the show comes from Peacock and a new original series The Five Star Weekend. Jennifer Garner stars as Holly Shaw, a famed cook who invites her best friends to an end-to-date after a devastating loss. Based on the best-selling novel by Ellen Hildebrand, this A-list ensemble also stars Darsie Carden, Gemma Chan, Regina Hall and Chloe Saviny. The Five Star Weekend is now streaming only on Peacock. Before we get started today, we wanted to remind you to follow Where Should We Begin on Amazon Music to get new episodes every week. You can also ask Alexa, "Hey Alexa, play Where Should We Begin on Amazon Music?" My partner or ex-fine right now, we were fed out of crossroads in our relationship of 10 years trying to figure out where our paths are going and if our own individual paths make sense to keep together or if it makes more sense to go our separate ways. Is this the person that I meant to be with? Is a question that many people ask themselves and also me. During their mid-30s, they came to a place where things could not continue as usual. They had to make a change. There was a period of time where we were really struggling and we eventually made the decision to what we called a "disculation of our relationship" to see what it would look like to live independently but together in the same space and try to see if we can get out of the dynamic that we were in. It had to happen because neither of us could continue in the way that it was going. So they created a new structure so that they could continue to live together under the same roof but not be in a romantic relationship. To find a way to lessen the reactivity and the chronic escalations and the high conflict that became pervasive in the relationship and things have really improved. This is actually closer to the relationship they've always wanted. As time went on we were like, "Wait, we're actually liking how we're feeling in this new arrangement but what does that mean?" Like, is it because there's still something there or is it because of the breakup or the de-escalation that we're feeling better? What's the big fear? You know, you love each other before? Well, we stop at it at this time, you know what I mean? They are afraid. If we re-engage, if we become a romantic couple again, will we be able to sustain this or is all of this going to fall apart again? There's a part of me that wants to try again but there's a part of me that we don't know how to make it work, you know? We just fall right back into the old patterns. Will we end up resenting each other and ruining what we've established? We don't want to ruin what we have. We would like it to lead to more but we don't trust that the more is something that we actually can sustain. So let's listen. We met through a mutual friend to actually his ex, who I was dating for a while. Their relationship didn't work out and you know, a friendship blossomed into, you know, a relationship. We're texting every day. We're hanging out with the same friends. We're going out. Soon enough, we are in a full-blown relationship. That's fun. We're both young, having a good time. I had a lot of friends. We were hanging out, going to bars and stuff like that. And we were like, we're going to be together as long as we're having fun. As long as it's not fun, that's when we start to have to, you know, talk about it and reconsider. For a while it worked out. So that was the original contract. Light and easy. Light and easy, yeah. Okay. So that's phase one. Yeah. That's phase one. And as you pass the Konoko Honeymoon phase, as we started to get older, that is when the fun maybe started to shift. He was looking for more fun, more openness, more exploration. People, new people, friends, whatever that may be. And we used to joke that I had more holds some ideas of what I wanted and wanted to do and how to spend my time. I used to complain that we would just be on the go all the time. Like, Thursday through Sunday, party, bar, club, another bar, another club. At no moment to sit down and have a meal. And I was just like, I don't know if this is the lifestyle that I want. You know, I mean, it wasn't bad. I don't want to give it like this tojury interpretation. It was more just like, it was just too fast. And I didn't feel like we were taking time to do certain things that I wanted to do. So I think that's where he always felt like he had to pull me and I was kind of just like slow down and he was like, come on, I want to bring you along for all of this. Yeah, I want you with me. Like I want to do this together and you finally dig the heels in the second of out like, yeah, this is not what I'm doing. Or I'm going to scale back on how much I'm involved in this. Do you need him to help you scale back? Yes, at the time I did. Because you kind of otherwise could get lost in the vortex? Yes, yes, if I'm going to be honest. In the hedonistic vortex? He put it out late. The lack of a better word, sure. Should we find another one? Or does it state it clearly? Yes, with friends it's easy to, especially when your young live in a city or you're doing what your friends are doing. But when he tries to slow you down, this is now beyond just this one situation. When he tries to slow you down or to say, let's sit or let's have a meal or let's not just go, go, go. To fight him or you actually know he's providing you with an inner control that you sometimes lack. That's a question. I did fight it. I did resist, especially if it conflicted on what my plans were, the hedonistic stuff. Yes, I was very much fighting it and then it would only through argument and sort of like him like wearing me down but like making me feel bad in the conversation then I would acquiesce to the slowing down. As I got older, over time I've realized the calming factor of being in and doing like the wholesome stuff. I used to resent the characterization of what I wanted to do as wholesome for some reason. I understand. Because the way that you label things gives it a whole meaning. Why is yours wholesome and yours young, free, pleasure-seeking, adventurous and you're like what the party pooper? It's interesting to see how very early on you took on those roles and my guess is that once they were outlined they just became more and more defined. That's 100%. And then it starts to filter into everything. It just becomes one is responsible and one is not. One is serious and one is not, one is forward looking, one is not. Is that what happened? Yes. So if you had the word that really described and it wasn't wholesome as in grand modedly, what could it have been for you? I can't give you necessarily a word but the image that comes up in my mind is sitting around the table for food because I grew up Italian. All of our gatherings were around the table. So whenever I think about what gives me joy and fulfillment, it's like sitting down, having a conversation. So to me it's like enriching, it's engaging, it's stimulating. Whereas on the flip side, sometimes the party scene was hard for me because there wasn't a lot of opportunity to talk. The music's loud, it's fast and social interactions can be sometimes fleeting and superficial. So I felt that on a really deep soul level where I was feeling empty. So I didn't think of it as wholesome like it was. No, no, I get it, I get it. But I was wondering that image that you had of sitting around the table, dropping in, being present, connecting with each other, having rich conversations. Did you have that at home? Yes. I grew up home, we had dinner every night. And your family background? My mom was a married woman. American and my dad is a Caribbean, so I'm the West Indies. So yeah, I grew up in a, you know, international/American home, but I guess in terms of like the meal aspect, I don't know if that was-- - It wasn't the meal as much as did it seem to you fun is outside. - Yes. - That's what I was going to say. - Yeah, it's fun is outside, you know. - It's a little party. - He's describing fun is inside. And the word fun would even need what he would choose. But inside is rich, inside is where you choose to, whereas you're describing kind of an alarm to always want to go out. - That's short. - 'Cause the home is where you chill, where you relax, you're not doing too much, you're just like there to, I guess recharge, so then go back out. - So out is where you bring the best of you and the leftovers come home. - There you go, yep. - And then home becomes a place where you don't give much of yourself. - Yes. - And then that will become very frustrating to him. - Yes. (laughing) - Something like that. - Something, something like that. - Yes. - 'Cause then he sees how much attention, focus, engagement, presence you take with you when you go out. And you come home, you take off your shoes, you put your feet up, you speak, and you hope that nothing is asked from you and you don't have to do squat. (laughing) - Yes. (laughing) - What did you just see as I was describing this? You just had a scene in front of you. (laughing) - Like my typical days, or not, yeah, typical days if I don't have much to do, or like an argument about the start, you know what I mean? Of like, you're just there, there's so much you could be doing and you're just there. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm in my house. I'm supposed to be relaxing, you know? When you go out, that's when you're exerting energy and doing all that. So when you were saying all that, I just saw all the arguments or like all the times where he would be like, I can't explain it, but this is why I'm mad. I'm like, what, I'm inside. But the way when you laid it out, I was like, "That's how to make that." - He points at an interesting distinction here because at first, it looks like they're having tension around the fact that one of them wants to go out, party, meet friends, have fun, and the other one wants to be more at home around the table in conversation, et cetera. And so he says, "But I'm home." And you're having a fit with me even when I'm home. That's because his conception is that at home you chill, at home you put your legs up and you don't have to be performative, you don't have to please, you don't have to charm, you don't have to make any effort. As a result, the best of him goes out into the world and the leftovers come home. It doesn't sound great for him primarily because if he struggles with the emptiness of the fast-paced party scene, struggles is not even the word, it doesn't like it. And he also doesn't get your presence when you're home. Then he's gonna start to feel a lonely, bored, frustrated, agitated. Something? Yes, then that ended up having follow and effect. And I have a lot of guilt for the way that I reacted. I think we got into a bad habit of mocking the things that the other person liked. Each of you. Both of us in different ways, in retrospect, I would make little digs about the vat that's superficial nature, aparting how no one was really interested in getting to know anyone. It was slight offhand comments that I now, in retrospect, realized I was breaking him down. I was stealing his light. But then when it would come to me making new friends, there would be little jabs about like, "Oh yeah, y'all gonna go talk about philosophy or. " - Boring stuff. - Yeah. Little jokes about being pseudo-intellectual or something like that, that I think war on each other. We didn't have a lot of respect for what the other person brought to the table or was interested in. I regret that. I do. Because I can be difficult. I can be hard. When I've been made to feel rigid and typecast, it makes me really angry. And so the way that I have responded sometimes hasn't been the right way. And so I recognize that after the fact that like, what was the effect on him? What was I doing to him by saying these things? What's described here is a rather common pattern in many relationships. One person doesn't like what the other one does. When they can't get anywhere, just repeating that, the comment turns into criticism. When the criticism doesn't get anywhere, then the criticism over the behavior turns into a criticism over the personality. Not what you do, but who you are. Then, as he says, we began mocking each other. We did. We made the person feel bad about the very thing that mattered to them. And it became contemptuous. And contempt switched from, I don't like what you do, to, there's something wrong with you. That is the sentence of contempt. And he very honestly owns it beautifully, just takes responsibility for it, and just says, I added my peace to this, and it made it worse. I was very beautiful. That recognition is really important, because when you start to repeat that on a daily basis to each other, it becomes rigid. It's like each of you basically began to put down the very part that the other person is already struggling with. Yeah, I think after a while, because you, at that point, dug your hails in, was like, I'm not doing this as much, or I'm just gonna take a pivot. And you started to sort of look down on the things that I guess I was valuing. It chipped away at me, and my self-esteem of what I like, is what I like, frivolous and dumb and stupid. So, I think over time, it just corroded my confidence in the things that I liked. And then the pandemic happened. And now you are, you know, in survival mode. In survival mode at this point. So they're tracking with me the sequence of escalation in their relationship. They had become a digging couple that attacks and reacts and blames and defends. And then they bring up the pandemic. They start to describe the pressure cooker of having this whole dynamic when there is not even an opportunity to open a door, to meet other people, to get some other input, to have a break from it. They were with this day in, day out. (soft music) We are in the midst of our session. And there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for the show comes from quote, "Life comes with unexpected twists and turns, "and you don't want an unanswered call "to be the reason you miss something promising." That's why today's episode is brought to you by quote, spelled "Q-U-O." The business phone system builds so you never miss a call. All your calls, texts and voice mails live in one place. So anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history and respond fast. Quote is the number one rated business phone system on G2, trusted by over 90,000 businesses who rely on it to stay reachable and look professional every day. 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Go to quince.com/begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/begin for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com/begin. Support for the show comes from Peacock and the new original series The Five Star Weekend. Jennifer Garner stars as Holly Shaw, a famed cook known for her delicious recipes and impeccable taste. After braving a devastating loss, she decides to invite her best friends to a getaway on NandTocket. As boundaries are pushed, friendships are tested and secrets are exposed, cracks begin to emerge in her picture-perfect life, her strain marriage, her complicated relationship with her daughter and her growing pursuit of validation from her fans. Based on the best-selling novel by Ellen Hildebrand, this a-list ensemble also stars Darcy Carden, Gemachan, Regina Hall and Chloe Savinyy. We just really struggled with how we both navigated that because on the one hand, our friend group took more liberties with the pandemic even in the earlier months during the lockdown. And I took a very hard admittedly rigid line and said we are not going to be around anybody, we can't be around anybody because they're all going into big 10-15 person groups and we were talking, well can't we have a bubble? There's no bubble if everyone's mixing, it's not a bubble then. So we got into a point where we're pretty isolated and a lot of our friends kind of moved on. Not moved on. We felt at the time that people moved on without us. Right. And I think because of his hard stance at the time, there was no talking or in-between about how we were going to do it. He kind of just dug his heel into sand and I had to kind of be along with the program because that's just how it was. You know, you really wasn't budging and I think that's when the conflict's really started to kick off because- And for every time I relinquish, I resent you more. Yes. Each time I had to give up a part of my view or like what I would do or my own autonomy in the situation because there's this person that's just making the rules. And where is all of this stored right now? Yeah still. Yeah still a little bit of the control and autonomous piece and I think that's really where I guess I struggle where to go forward of like exercising that autonomy but also doing it in an appartement ship as well and not the same way. Are you surprised that you relinquish your ideas or your coping mechanisms and that you kind of allowed him to- No. No. I'm not surprised. Tell me. I think in my relationships with family, I do get steamrolled quite a bit, especially with my mom and my sisters and I think that translated in people pleasing with friends. You know just taking the easy way route or just the path of less resistance and conflict avoidance. So I get to not surprising that I let this happen or this happen and I think part of that is I resent that of myself because I don't think I like that as a quality. Is there that? Yes. And what is that's ruining this? More like me. The laid back path of least resistance less outspoken in a room of people who have a stronger personality. However, still has things to say when asked. So I think in this whole dynamic with mom's sisters, he was kind of like me kind of like that. We'll let them talk. That's that. We'll let them talk and we'll go do our thing or we'll let them talk and we'll do what they want because happy wife, happy life. Yes. We'll let them talk and do what they want until you know- It really matters. Until it really matters or- The most things don't matter enough to put up a stink. Correct. Yeah. And you wink at each other? Yeah. We were like, you know, we were kind of commiserating as to why whatever they were talking about was as important. I think my dad was very much on the- What are you guys talking about? So I think I kind of took the stance of my dad and that's something I'm trying to work on not happening more and standing up for myself. But also not doing it in a way that I is distrustful. Not distrustful but like I'm very much on the defense of wanting to keep my autonomy or make sure that I'm not getting steamrolled. I want to respond to that. Just that, you know, I recognize that I also felt that the way that I conducted myself is something that I ended up presenting in myself. I still hold a lot from the pandemic as well, less about how he showed up for me but more about how I showed up for myself and how I conducted myself because I felt that I was very- I must felt like it felt tyrannical. That's the word I always have my heads. I feel like a tyrant. Because you were scared? I was terrified. I mean I realized I had a lot of anxiety issues around contamination and I mean I woke up every morning and I looked at the numbers and I would read the graphs and it was a moment that I wasn't really proud of. In retrospect I don't know if I could have done anything differently because we didn't know what this thing was at the time. And I was trying to protect us. I mean that's how I remember it. It felt very life or death at the time. But I think that I think I belittled you for wanting to be around your friends. There was a lot of times that I would say you know the world is burning and all you can worry about is going to a house party. Which in retrospective it's not a house party. We were lonely. We were deeply lonely. But I'd be like I'm lonely too. So what you mean like you need to go to that. We just have to you know people fought world wars and we we have to sit in and watch Netflix. It's not that bad. And so I would just kind of like trivialize what we were going through and to say this. You brought up your entire cultural arsenal. Yeah. Yeah. But I understand that underneath this was fear. In the same way that when you say I'm holding on tight to my autonomy in a kind of a defensive way it's not because I've trusted so well that it's going to manifest. It's because I actually experience its fragility. Yeah. In the same way that you become rigid when you are scared. And it looks like you're a controlling dude. And you act in a controlling fashion. But in fact it's because you're feeling out of control. It's presented a certainty but in fact it's fear. Masquerading a certainty. Yeah. They had a fear of uncertainty. I guess what you're saying is like he's not the absolute truth just because because he sounds like it. Right. He can be challenged. Okay. Yeah. And it's your opportunity. Yeah. That's it. I think when the pandemic finally you know the Vax we were vaccinated. We can stand each other anymore. So yeah. It's like we had I don't know how you might describe it a bit differently but when I came out I had a new lease on life. I was just like I lost these many years. I went in 28 and I came out 3031 and it's something about hitting 30 while inside and not having that ability to live those last few years of your 20s the way you wanted to had a really big impact on I think both of us but me in particular. And I just was like I'm gonna live my life the way I want to live it. I'm gonna travel. I want to get back to the things that I used to like I was on a mission you said. Yeah. When you got out it was you were on a mission but I think for me the aftermath was feeling like I lost friendships because I just was isolated when my friends were out non-isolating you know they were out and about making connections or memories that I wasn't a part of so I felt like I lost that on that and then I guess there was a whole cultural conversation around race at the time and again because I was isolated I didn't really get to experience that as well because I love my partner at the time but you know he's a wide guy so I didn't really get that conversation as well or interaction in the isolation so I don't know I felt very much lost coming out of it I kind of lost my mojo. They describe the lockdown the suffocation how it exacerbated all their dynamics but also what was happening in the world outside. Here was Black Lives Matter as he calls it a whole racial conversation was taking place that I could not participate. in and that was one in which I may have found some of that very assertiveness, autonomy, confidence, self-worth that I was struggling with without having to do it alone. And in addition, something so powerful in his referencing this because there's so locked in into this notion that one just wants to party and one wants to have a more serious engagement with life, he didn't just want to party. He wanted to be part of the larger conversation that was happening at that time around black men and black lives matter and he couldn't. And so it adds a whole layer to him that isn't just party boy. So yeah, you, I think you were thriving? I'm not. I don't know if I'd call it thriving. The way I describe it and I think it matches our styles too is that I came out feeling on this urgency, this anxiety to make up for last time, which always forces me into action. And I think you experienced it more of a kind of like a sadness or a depression and it made you just kind of like, kind of feel like defeated. Like the wind had been sucked out of your sales and you had lost everything. You always say, I just lost this and I lost that. Nothing felt the same coming back. So yeah, I kind of felt like just lost in it. And then what did you do? I think I'm still in that process of finding my way, but I think finding my way was going inward, figuring out what I liked connecting with myself and I think in a way I became a recluse because I didn't want to like socialize. I think I developed an anxiety of socialization. So wow. I didn't really want to talk to people as much. I kind of became the opposite of what I became going into the pandemic. I felt as though people Mo Don and hadn't wanted nothing to do with me. I just had just a really negative self view about how things were, where my place was in the world. Was it real that they had left you or? No, it was all inside of you. In my head. It's like we switched roles. Those roles, I didn't feel relevant. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. I didn't feel relevant. Wow. I guess I didn't feel important anymore. Yeah. But you see the interesting thing is that it may look like when you were in your, I'm out and about socially hyperactive on the scene phase that that was an expression of confidence. What I'm hearing from you is that that was a way of dealing with the lack of confidence. That was a way of dealing with some of your questions around self-world, which is not unusual that being socially accepted in the center of things. Every phone call means I matter. I'm important. People think of me. I'm worthy. Yeah. But if every phone call means that, it means that inside of me, I don't really think it. Then somehow you think this is the problem now because you're no longer going out and reaching in the same way. But maybe this is actually not the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the most useful way to deal with this issue. It took care of the job. As long as it was fast and constant, so you don't have to think. In a way, this is more painful. This is what you've defended against all along. But this actually gives you the opportunity to really develop the confidence. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I may help, what hookup I had and the frequency of it all, I guess, in my mind meant that I mattered. Do you point really, that was fake. That wasn't real competence. I don't want to speak for you, but my interpretation of how things were, is that you started to look to me. You felt like without me, you were lost. Without you, no one wants to hang out with me. They all wanted to do with you. And I'm like, what is this? You were the one that brought me into the fold. You were the one that showed me so much. You were the one that really opened up my life when I came into the picture with your friend group. And now you're saying you were looking to me and it was like all of these floods of emotions started coming in that I had never seen. And that were honestly, it was both, I felt good that you finally could share them with me and I felt closer, but I was also a little overwhelmed because it was just a flood. I felt almost like, oh my gosh. If this is how he's feeling, how do I take care of you? I have this memory where it was your birthday and I had planned this fancy dinner out somewhere and I just felt like you just weren't. I don't know, I hated that. I almost resented it. It was like, you feel this way and I'm still trying to help out to make things fun and it just wasn't connecting anymore. And this isn't fun anymore. That's amazing. You actually did rely on him to be your fun machine. The same way that he somewhere relied on you to be the container that reminded him that it's time to come home on occasion, but he didn't like it, but he knew he needed it somewhere. And you, in a way, also needed him to be the light, fun-seeking guy. And he actually turns to you with the gravitas, you welcome it because it means so much to you. And at the same time, you're afraid it's going to overwhelm you and you're not going to know what to do with it. Well. Yeah, I never thought of it that way. Yeah. Say it in your own words. I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be. And I was more serious. And when the moment it started to happen, it was almost like the very thing that I was asking you for before I was now cursing you for not giving me. Yeah. So you kind of probably felt like you were in a catch-22. Well, yeah, it was definitely felt inadequate because it was like, well, the one thing that I'm good at, I'm not even doing, which is like the fun and like, you know, making things happen, cheering you up, I had become the cloud now. And I guess, obsolete to you, you know, in that period. So then, I guess we're both kind of like, something needs to kind of happen. We need to shake things up. This whole session, we are tracking the progression of the relationship from the beginning to where they are now. Now they're at an impasse. They're constantly picking at each other. They can't take it anymore and they decide we need to do something. We need to do something. It seems to them that only a structural shift can stop the repeated patterns that they are calling. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. And Donald Trump find a way out of the war in Iran. The Iran war has been by a long margin Trump's biggest policy failure. Part of the reason that he has been unable to end the war is because he can't accept the loss that it would imply from his war goals. I'm Pete Barara. And this week Ian Bremmer, the founder and president of the leading global risk firm Eurasia Group, joins me to break down the latest in the war in Iran. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay tuned with Pete wherever you get your podcasts. Support for We Should We Begin Comes From Skylight. Everyone is so busy these days, even the kids. That's why you need a skylight. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that sinks seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook and more. You can manage events, chores and gross release while assigning colors for each of your family members. Jesse has used a skylight frame. I have used a skylight frame. And I will say it makes quick changes very easy. I have traditionally always been someone who likes to paper calendar. Once you write it in pen, it's there forever. Even if it's wrong. And the skylight is just cleaner and has a lot more flexibility. It is better when they're working together. Right now, skylight is offering our listeners 30 dollars of their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/estr. Go to myskylight.com/estr for 30 dollars of your 15-inch calendar. That's m-y-sk-y-l-i-g-h-t.com/estr. What for where should we begin comes from Skate? The Skylight calendar is done all in one digital smart calendar that sinks seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook and more. You can manage events, chores and grocery lists while assigning colors for each of your family members. Jesse, my producer has used a skylight frame. With the circus that I run at home, I absolutely need some way of trying to organize the mattress. I like the kids to have colors so that they know what their thing is that day when their soccer is or what have you and then my husband can quickly pull it up and say, you know, "I have to be here at this time to pick up at this place because when you have three kids you are basically just an Uber service." Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 after 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/estare. Go to myskylight.com/estare for $30 of your 15-inch calendar. That's m-y-s-k-y-l-i-g-h-t.com/estare. I said we needed to change something. I don't know what it was that we needed to do but I knew we couldn't go status quo. We both agreed that it just could not go on like this. We eventually landed on what we called a de-escalation of our relationship where we would effectively break up. But the board break up didn't feel like it fit. For me, it just felt like we're not going to do the divorce split up the furniture, we're moving to other places. We know we love each other. We know that we care about each other. I want you in my life. You want me in your life. But we're running a three-legged race and we're just tripping and we're pulling each other in different. We don't know how to get out of it. And we just need some time to breathe. That was the decision. And I won't lie and say there wasn't practical elements to the decision too because living in an expensive city also means like, okay, are you going to live by yourself? So maybe the more traditional way would have been to give each other some physical space. But we decided, at least for now, we need to be able to do a live-in separation or de-escalation. We decided to do that probably around this time last year. And we had no idea what we were doing. We just knew that we were going to start trying to live separate lives together. And you draw the line at sex. But not physical intimacy generally. Right. There's been times where we cuddle, sleep in the same bed. All that, you know, affection. So, you know, externally people see your friends and you're like, you're out. What's going on? I'm like, you know, or most people go like, what's really different? What's different is that you try to create a demarcation that would enable you to have a much more differentiated relationship. Yeah. Where not everything one of you does, the other one has a reaction to. Yes. Yes. So, you can call it de-escalating, where the de-escalation is connected to the differentiation. Yeah. Now, of course, the interesting thing is, how does it work? And why is it that no sex becomes the thing that helps you do this? Because if you ask, you know, where do we go from here? Which I'm assuming is a part of why we are here. Yeah. You know, there is a way in which you experience a certain kind of closeness as becoming too enmeshed. And it becomes reactive. And each of you starts to reinforce the mechanisms of the other. The very mechanisms that the other doesn't necessarily even want. So, how do you. The issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple. The issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship? Yeah. And again, it's that piece of like how do we maintain our individual autonomy of ourselves? Having had the independence to live my life a bit more separately has allowed me to re-engage with that part of myself that I thought was lost when I was feeling so rigid and a little dynamic. And I've seen changes in him too. So now we're like, are these changes that we're seeing, where we're having more fun together? We're hanging out in a way that feels better, like something we haven't felt in a long time. Are they a byproduct of us being as separated? Or are they a byproduct of us changing something about ourselves that we can now re-engage in? But they are going together. It's the kind of separation that is enabling each of you to strengthen certain parts inside of you without needing the other person to do it for you. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. These are connected. If he's not my boy toy, then I have to become more connected to the part of me that wants fun and deal with the anxiety that comes with it. If I don't have him being the Mr. Structure and Containment, then I have to find some of this myself without thinking that that makes me boring and unwanted and undesirable as a friend in all of these associations that come with what you have called wholesome. It's not the separation just as such. The separation also means that there are certain comments you no longer can make. You don't have the same privilege to intrude on my internal landscape, but to tell me what you think about it. When you have that kind of separation for the benefit of the relationship, it forces you to maintain a certain distance. Therefore, I enter more into a conversation with myself. I'm not in stereo system all the time. What's your music? Me? Oh, I like a lot of things. You're a music guy, right? Yeah, I like hip-hop, R&B, pop. Throw in a little Britney Spears. So that's the thing you need to remember is he may like other music and it doesn't change how you like the music you like. Because that's inside of you. That's something you feel very clear and confident about. So if he says, "I hate that kind of music," or "How can you listen to this?" or "Come and listen to whatever you're into." I'm more like rock music. Okay. All right. You know, it doesn't ruffle you. That feeling that you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life. That's what it is. It's just making more decisions that are totally based off of no influence from anyone else or anyone. You get to actually know exactly what you want. And you get what you want instead of either compromising with someone else or changing your decision based off of whatever someone thinks. It's like, "No, this is what you want. You're standing in it. You're steadfast. No one's changing what you want and no one has an opinion about it." Or if they do, it's whatever. It's funny you bring up music because it's been a place that we've connected even though it's so different for us. It's like a spear that we kind of meet at. We go to karaoke. And we have so much fun. We sing in the house. We both like the same. I put on my country rock song and you're just, "You know, you listen to it." And then you put on your R&B pop song. And I listen to it and then we kind of like give each other notes on it. Okay. So you have a template. It gives you a sense of what does it feel like when it's more differentiated? So how do I maintain that closeness to him, that intimacy with him without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him? Yes. That's the question now. If we do go back to this, can I build this autonomy or work on this individual piece of me without being distracted by you? And maybe the things that trickle me about you and what you're doing. That's the next level of differentiation. Yeah. You get to have your opinion, but mine doesn't dissolve because of it. And neither does it have to become belligerent. Defensive. Oh, defensive, right? Offensive, yes. Like a fight. Yeah. You know. So why the urgency to solve the riddle now? Yeah. I think it's like, can we go on like this forever? Go on, first of all, it doesn't have to be forever versus now. I guess yesterday versus never. For me, I guess it's a limbo of like, are we together or are we not together? Are we just kind of roommates? with the connection, you know, I guess it's me wanting a definition and then like then a further commitment. I guess of like are we gonna continue living together for the next 10 years? Are we gonna get married? Because you know it's a long time you know what I mean? Or are we gonna eventually move out and kind of really really make that transition? So I guess it's just getting out of the limbo that we've been in for like a year now. Or as a question is is the current state that we're in holding us back from other like there's nothing on paper. There's nothing on paper. No one's holding each other back but like are we psychologically holding ourselves back? I don't necessarily dislike it. I just don't know if you can do it in perpetuity. Now forget the perpetuity for a second. You keep going back and forth between on the spot versus never. But what if you ever wondered that in fact it is the very lack of definition that looseness that can feel destabilizing that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make. When we were defined and committed we got stuck. You're not stuck, you're undefined which is contrary to traditional script, wholesome scripts. Like that. You know what are you? Are you really together? You're not together? You're sleeping together. You're not sleeping together. Do you see how the people are doing? It's kind of summarizing four or five questions. You'd be surprised how many people ask you. Of course. You feel like you're on the defense like you have to litigate your. You can also just say it's probably one of the better times we've had in a long time. That's all we can say. Something about this Terra non-Ferma, this moving ground underneath us is actually doing us good. And if we decide at some point not to stay together we will have developed a type of maturity in relationships that we can take with us in life. But it's like because we feel better we should stop this and make a decision. You feel better right? Kind of. That's kind of, you know. It's like because I feel better I can take off the brace. But it is the brace that is helping me walk better. Sometimes it's keeping on for a little longer because it's creating movement and you need movement. And you need a change that is individual. You're working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is giving you. giving you the safety and the freedom both to deal with this. This is an unusual thing. Even if it doesn't have a name and doesn't get defined and makes people curious and all of that. And those comments we used to make stopped in the last year. The digs and the snide remarks and the trivialization of what we like and I have a whole new perspective in the gym. So we're learning how to be in relationship differently. We're learning not to have our partner be part of a cover-up operation of some of our inner challenges. And we have a unique opportunity. We love each other enough to do this with each other in this artificial. I'm not even artificial, but in this creative actually construct that we've just come up with. Do you sleep with other people? What do you do sex-wise? We talk about other people. You talk about other people. Both of you. So you're not like starving for the. No. Do you connect with each other? Do you hook up with each other on occasion? It's happened over the year. It's always been something that's given me maybe a little bit more. Because you're instantly thinking what does it mean? Does it mean we're back together? Does it mean we're going to connect? We're going to commit? We're going to marry? We're going to have children? We're going to. Exactly. What is it going to be? We're going to do the straight. That's not right. It's like, leave that. Right. That's so true. I understand. It's like, what does it mean if we cross that rule become again? It means primarily that we were into each other. And we have a deep connection and we wanted to express it also physically. And leave it at that for that night or morning or whatever. Yeah. We. In Limbo for about a year now. I know, for me, I'm kind of like, I don't know. You're not in Limbo. That's what I'm saying. It's an interesting thing that you're not in Limbo. You're actually for the first time moving. True. And shifting the dynamic. So autonomy for you is the ability to even know what you want or think next to someone who is opinionated, which is the only way you can train your muscles. So you find yourself a good, rigid, opinionated guy, and then you can hone your chops. You understand? Yeah, I do understand. I do, yeah. It takes a lot of sense. So you ask where we go from here. And my only thought that accompanied me the whole time is, if this thing continues as it is going, and it feels good, you will have your answer. But don't choke it. Because we should know, we should know, we should know. We know. What we know is what we are experiencing that is not in the title. But that is in the actual interaction, in the things that are changing inside of us and between us. That we know. And if that continues, then we will either say, it's beautiful, and this is who I want to make my life with, or you will say this was a beautiful love story, but it won't be a life story. There's nothing, somebody from the outside can answer here. The quality of the relationship is going to be what you decide. Yeah. I like that concept of, like, if we did, you know, somehow make the ground stop moving on the breath. It wouldn't allow for the movement forward. We would neither get stuck again, or. I don't know. It wouldn't allow us to keep moving forward. So in a way, the uncertainty is the medicine, I guess. Yes. So often, people ask me if they should work on themselves in court, before they can be in a relationship. And this is a very accepted notion in our very individualistic society. Go away, retreat, have a relationship with yourself, work out the kings, and then when you feel good about yourself, then go and find someone who is going to feel equally good about you as you do. And I've always had a challenge with that premise. I think that for some people, that is obviously what needs to happen. But this is the perfect example of a couple where the other version of this exists. It is the relationship that brings out individual challenges, vulnerabilities, obstacles, fears that reside in each of them, and that they get to work out, each of them, by themselves, but in the context of the relationship. And I happen to think that this is equally, if not more, relevant. Because I've worked with many people who have a lot of inquiries about themselves when they are alone. But it's only when you are with another person who pushes the buttons, who makes you react that you actually, in real life, in the moment, get to practice something else. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise, or part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibli, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Ann, original music and additional production by Paul Schneider, and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin, are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.