Is Polsia AI slop or the future of startups?

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Is it helping or hurting your cause right now that Polsia's AI slop backwards? I think that like, the fact that it makes people talk so much, I think is amazing. Some call him a scammer. Others say he'll be the first one man, one billion dollar startup. But either way, Ben Sarah has been the talk of the town and tech. You know, the users that are loving the platform, like they love it, right? They are empowered to start building companies in general for the first time. Polsia is his AI startup that claims to run your entire company for you. And Polsia just raised $30 million for itself from some big name investors, seemingly with little input from Ben. But the reality is today, nobody owns this market, and I think that's why people are talking about it in a good way, in a bad way, because it's like, is it good? Is it bad? You know, there's a debate, right, around. And I think that's when you touch a nerve, right? Is this thing vaporware or the AI, COO in a box that empowers the next age of entrepreneurship? We get into it all. Welcome to access. Ben, welcome to the show. I was worried that you weren't going to show up because your AI CEO is seemingly handling all of your emails as well. What makes it through? Because I feel like when I've tried AI eAs, they don't really know what's important, but no, they all say they do. So the thing is, that specific Polsia agent that answers my emails, which is connected to the whole Polsia code base, actually, that was the idea of Polsia raising the round. And so I connected it to my email, and it would answer every investor's email, every digitalization question and all the conversations completely autonomously. But it would also reply to anyone else who was contacting me. And I thought it was pretty nice because I was so overwhelmed with the emails, and I couldn't I don't have time to build a product and answer everyone. And so I was like, it's kind of nice actually that people get a response at least, right? They say, hey, Ben's busy, but like, and sometimes it sort of answers the question if it's like a product question or like a, and I do see, I don't always see the response. I only see the response when the person responds again. And then I see what the Polsia said, but I think it's a good way for me to buy a little bit of time. Did it say yes to every check inbound? No, no, no, no, I mean, it was very, it was very protective of the cap table. It was actually redirecting people to Polsia.com/termsheets that have deprecated recently where people could like submit their terms, but yeah, it's good times. I feel like you are arguably tech Twitter's most hated man this week. How does that feel like at the moment? I don't know. I don't know if I'm the most hated. I feel like it's like a mixed feeling thing because I see all the comments and I'm like, there's a lot of positive things. There's a lot of like negative things. I mean, I think it's a combination of like, a combination of like, the product is not perfect that I know. And so a lot of some of the criticism is correct in terms of like, it's not perfect. And like, honestly, the scale at which it's growing is making it sometimes difficult for agents to just work perfectly. Number two, it's like, we had a lot of work. We had to be, that had to be done on cost because then traffic, when you, initially when I launched Polsia, it was just like Opus 4.5, 4.6, and that's so expensive. And so at one point, it's like, you got to switch to better alternatives that I'm less expensive. But obviously, it introduces issues. But I think that like, also people, I think people are scared of like autonomy, right? Of like, this idea of like autonomous agents that are running companies that are running people's projects that are doing things in the economy autonomously on BFF users. I think there's a lot of feedback that's good. In terms of like, we need to harness it more, we need to give more control to humans. But at the same time, you know, the users that are loving the platform, like, they love it, right? They are, they are empowered to start a new project, to start a new company, to start building companies in general for the first time. Like, I go meet those users and they're like, it's like, I had this idea and stuck in my head for two years. And like, I could never get to do it because, you know, because I didn't have the right tools, because I didn't have the right access. And the product like Polsia enables them. So now it's their first company. And is it going to be successful? Maybe, maybe not, you know, I built a lot of companies that were not successful before being somewhat successful. But I think this idea of like having millions of people, billions of people that are now economic actors, they are now founders and our builders is a very beautiful thing. And I think that like autonomy enables that. Totally understand the vision and Ben Hi nice to meet you. I'm curious though about the feedback you've gotten. I think specifically what I've noticed, including you mentioned open claw up here, the creator of open claw pointed this out, is that the bad taste people have in their mouth is that the first thing you are seemingly making autonomous is email and tweeting, which are things that people associate with growth hacking and spam. And I'm curious to hear you respond to that. I actually just went through while you were talking and had a new company get started on Pulsia. And I noticed that it tweeted from the companies account, the idea and the company. And then I've got a couple of emails in my inbox already. And those are the first things that I'm experiencing as a user, like I haven't been able to actually get inside yet. So why do that? And when you decided to automate that stuff first, did you foresee that people would react the way they have? The way the way Pulsia was built was an MVP. I built it in less than a month, right? And the idea was, OK, what are all the set of tools that I do? I would do if I started a company, well, I would need a web server and get a account. I need to build a little code base, I need to pick a language so it picks a language for you. I need to research competition so I do research agent. Maybe I need, but then on the marketing side, I need to market it a little bit. So maybe I'll tweet, which you do when you launch a project. Maybe I'll set up an email address. Maybe I'll set up, I do some ads to start getting some traffic in and buy traffic if I don't have my own audience. This is sort of like the first things I did because it was an easy one, right? And I wanted to make it super seamless. The reason on the Twitter thing, honestly, Twitter, it allows programmatic tweeting. And it comes from the Pulsia account. So it's not like am I enabling people to create their own accounts and tweets, which by the way, if people want to do that, that's a question about that's Twitter allow it. And is there like a specific tag that needs to be put in on that account to say that it's an automated tweet, right? There's a whole question about that. It's like, what do platforms allow and don't allow? What I know is that like Pulsia's account, it's clearly an AI and it clearly tweets continuously, but it's like, there's actually 15k people, 20k people follow it. They decided to follow it. I didn't ask them to follow it. Is it interesting tweets? I don't know. But like I think in that onboarding flow, I think the aim of that onboarding flow is to educate the 99% as many people as possible that like, hey, this autonomy is here, whether, you know, and this is enabling, right? And so the reason why there's all these things for you initially in the onboarding, which by the way, cost me money and I'll give it for free. And then people don't even have to sort of free trial, they just get it for free, right? Every day, there's dozens of people who experience this, right? Is that once they saw it, they saw, oh, wow, then agent can like research. It can create a landing page for me, which for you guys, it's like, yeah, I mean, obviously landing pages, dude, like cloud codex. Most people have no clue. They have no clue. I meet customers. They're like, they had no clue, right? Because it's like, it's tech Twitter. It's like, even tech Twitter, it's only people who know they're in the know, right? People replied, like, oh, I can do this with codex. I'm like, dude, nobody has codex. Twitter is very afraid of normies and people who don't know the latest and greatest tools. I don't know if they're afraid, but like, at least, you know, they're like, oh, it's just a rapper. I'm like, yeah, it's a rapper on the greatest technology ever built by the best company ever, which is anthropic and open AI. And yeah, I'm trying to make it easy for people to start to use it, to understand it. And so this onboarding is like, let me show you, shouldn't a normie or a normal, like someone who's not technical, what's possible. And then they can be like, I'm afraid of this. I don't like it. I just want to have a human team. Or they're like, interesting. I decided in my head, let me give it to it. Oh, wow, it created, it started to build the thing, right? And I understand now that like, it can, it can work across, across disciplines. you can, you can. And it can be my research analyst, it can be my coder, it can be my marketer, right? For me, it's Polsia tweets, right? So I make it so that it's easy for people to just get set up, right? But at the end of the day, you could connect their own account. But then the question is like, what is the Twitter terms of service, right? Call that reach is a little trickier. And I think the feedback of people is fair enough. And I think I'm making a lot of changes right now on call that reach actually. The initial idea is like, call that reach is a cheap way to be able to get a few customers to know about your product, right? And so everyone does it. I get call at reach all the time, all the time. Like my mailbox has so many call that reach of startups who are identifying me and trying to tell me, hey, use my product and they'll all AI, right? So are we forbidding founders and startups? By the way, they're all YC startups, like they don't use Polsia, they just do it themselves, right? Like, wait, so they're not very widespread behavior. No, so the 1% is allowed. But like the 99% is not allowed, right? Because someone on Tech Twitter says that it's not cool. Now what I'm trying to do is like make it ethical so that it's like to me, sending. So it's like only one or two. It was two emails per day per company. Now it's now to reaching into one. But the question is like, is it allowed or not? And it's like, that's the, does the internet to decide, right? Do they allow you to send an email to someone that doesn't know you? The thing with Polsia is that it actually researchers a person. It actually drives a very thoughtful email to the right person. What I do, for example, is that you have an unsubscribe button that I installed. Like, you know, I thought it was already there, but like, it was a native on Gmail. It wasn't at the bottom of the email and I was saying on Twitter, it was in this week's release notes. I was like, there is an unsubscribe button and people are like, there is not. I'm like, oh, you're not on Gmail. Oh, fuck. Okay. Okay. That's super clear. And it's a global unsubscribe. So you need to subscribe from any Polsia companies, right? I think the internet will decide the rules. And then I will add back to the rules. And I will empower new founders, billions of founders to be able to be empowered to create. And ideally not slop, ideally human driven sort of like companies, businesses, ideas, projects. That's the goal. Now, is it today, the way, you know, if you set it up, like, is the website designed beautiful? I mean, yeah, it's AI. So it's like, it's opus designing and it's really bad at designing and it always designed the same way. And I'm trying to tell it, no, make it unique. And it's like, unique for it is like a three templates, you know? Yeah. So is it helping or hurting your cause right now that Polsia is AI slop backwards? The big, the main question is, is the product good, is the, does the product work? Does the product make users happy and powered to, to create, to be part economic actors, right? This is the big question, right? If it does, that's the only thing that matters. I'm having a lot of conversations with users. I'm actually like, you know, because it's so easy to be behind your dashboard and see numbers go up and like, you know, look, do create AI support and be, you know, let me actually go see me, these customers and I did a ton of them and like, I'm starting to post on Twitter like videos of me meeting them and it's like, nobody complains about the design, which a lot of people are saying, oh, it's ugly, like the UI is like, okay, nobody complains, nobody cares about that. Number two, nobody ever told me about the name, oh, I don't like the name. Like, nobody cares. So number one, nobody cares. Number two, I think that like the fact that it makes people talk so much, I think is amazing because it's like the hardest thing in this world is Mark. It is actually, you can create a great product, but then there's so many great products that die because nobody notices, right? I think marketing, now more than ever in a world where like everyone is a founder, right? I'm trying to make the 99% founders, but like the 1%, which is like everyone is a, it was like sort of like already literate in like AI and codex and cloud code, they're all founders now, right? And so there's so many companies, you take any idea, there's like 10 YC startups doing it, plus the 10 people over the world doing it and like probably 100 this year, right? And so marketing becomes so important. You clearly have a focus on marketing and growing companies and you're clearly great at that. I'm curious, what are the other use cases that people are using policy of for right now? Like are there practical concrete examples of here are companies and how they're running that you can share? I mean, yeah, I mean, there's like, there's a lot of different use cases. So I mean, I feel like the main two use cases that like when I talk to customers, one of them is like, I had this business idea that I had my head and I was able to launch it, right? Sometimes I had one business idea and I have a second one and a third one, right? And so you can go to Twitter and read the testimonials of people that are explaining their idea, right? You know, one of the customers I met, he was like, I was, you know, two years ago, I got reached out by like this company who's offering sort of like setting up a Google, a Google Google business profile online, right? And I signed up, it was like whatever, 200 bucks a month. And then I was like, it's not that difficult. I could do this myself. And so he asked Porsia, hey, I want to do that same business because I think it's a great idea to offer that service to other people. So that's his business, right? He started it like a few weeks ago. He's like, he's launching it. He's like, he's a client customers. And for him, he's empowered to try this idea, right? Is it a brilliant idea? I don't know. It's like, I don't know. It's like a business idea, right? I'm also talking to customers who are like using Porsia to help them with their existing business. So I like this customer in France, he's running like a laundry business like he's helping like a laundry is like he connects essentially a marketplace between people who need laundry services and and laundry laundry businesses. And actually, he was using a third party software that was charging him like two, three hundred a month, something like that to do operation stuff. You're saying essentially, yeah, to to to run to run the business to run like and use Porsia to recreate this whole business for him. And now he's running it on Porsia. And now he adds all the features he wants. And it's like he recreate a whole software and then like he manages it to like sort of like use it as his control center for for his existing business. He actually connected his own strap account because he was like, Hey, I cannot pay 20% and I was like, yeah, it's all good. As Porsia to connect your own strap account. I mean, it won't be as seamless, but you can figure it out. When you're advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Learn more at Accenture.com/spotify. That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability. One of the interesting things to me, I feel like Pulsia encompasses a bunch of different verticals. Whether it is the finance side, the web design, the outbound, I had a client last year called Unify that does automated warm outbound based on someone's social signals online, what products they're talking about, if they interacted with one of your posts, etc. You're one guy trying to do all the verticals. Do you feel like there's a big advantage to that approach somehow in aggregate? How could you do any of those verticals better when it seems like the problems are still not solved yet with AI handling some of this stuff for the 10 different verticals that make up running a company? It's a really good point. There's two parts to this answer. The first part is, I don't know, it's like everything feels right with this project. I've been on Tripod for a long time. Is it good enough? I guess it's what I'm saying and any of these things. You've known me for a long time. I've built a bunch of products that were always kind of weird, kind of new, kind of trying to push. This is what excites me. The idea of building Porsia and making it like something that is net positive for humanity that empowers people to build stuff, that's great. To me, I'm like, why would I narrow myself to Porsia? I can only do this one thing. Why would I do that? Actually, I want it to be generalized. I want it to do anything. Now, to answer your question, it's very difficult to make it do anything. Point in case that the fact that the call at rich agent is not good, it's not good enough because there's so much subtleties to call that reach. There's companies doing call that reach as a service. That's the whole thing. The meta adds agent. It's good, but it's not that good. It's not perfect. It should be more diversified. It should have more skills. The engineering agent should be much better and I'm working really hard with partners to make it much, much better. My solution to this is that Porsia is the brand. Porsia is the orchestration, but I'm working with like four different agent platform companies right now that are plugging in into Porsia to service some of the stuff. I'm working with Sepium, which is doing the payment rails for agents. I'm working with Blackcell. which is started doing like sandboxes and web sandboxes for websites and for agents to run in. I'm working a company called Encore Browser that is building the browser for agents to be able to navigate the browser much better. I'm working with another company called AgentMail that is going to integrate to take over the whole email thing because they are just fully focused on that. And so to your point, there's so many companies that are building in this new world. It's all super young, actually, because it's all you world, because AGI just arrived like three months ago. And yeah, the idea is not for me to do everything on. To me, it's like to partner with the best so that I can use the best. And over time, they're probably going to be a marketplace of agents where, you know, MEDA could like come in and like install their like Instagram management for AI, agents, sort of like little plug-in. And you have an official agent that could run your Instagram account in compliance with MEDA and like build my MEDA. And maybe there's a third party you will offer that as well. And Pulse second decide based on cost, based on intent, based on what the user wants, right? Is that what the investors see when they invest $30 million in PulseA with you having to do nothing but sign on the line? I mean, there's certainly an argument that the models are going to get good enough. At least maybe they'll get better faster than the individual vertical SaaS apps do, so that whether it is the marketplace of companies offering, you know, little agents for you to use or otherwise, that what's most valuable about what you've built is almost like your methodology. Is that what the investors see? I mean, okay, so let me put it that way, right? If I can be, if PulseA can be the preferred agent, right? That is trusted by millions and millions and millions of people to build things, to initially was to build a new company, then it was like, you know what? Like, can you help me with like my, you know, my yoga practice? Like I'm trying to find new customers or I'm trying to market myself better. Can you help me? Also, by the way, like, I'm doing a trip to Kabul, right? Can you help me, like, just figure out a ternary? This is where it goes, right? Because at one point, you trust an agent that is in your inbox every day. That is always positive. That gets to know you, right? And act, can act on a, today, yes, it's email, ads, Twitter, engineering, research, right? It's pretty much what it does. And I haven't expanded too much because I'm trying to make those better and stable and scale, which is difficult, right? But over time, it's like, if you can believe that like PulseA can be that agent for people, which by the way, it's crazy that like a guy, a French guy who, rather than seven, three months ago, it has the opportunity to get that market, right? Because you two tell me, who owns this market today? Who? Charge GPT? That's not an agent that is in your inbox that like, it's like a chatbot. And traffic? Not really, like, that's an agent that you talk to and then whenever you need, right? I don't know, OpenClaw? Well, it's sort of like an open source project. That's not really easy, super easy to use, except if you're technical. So nobody owns this market. Now in six months, we talk again and like, okay, there's people that are trying to own that market or maybe Sam Alpan, like launch something similar. I don't know, we'll see. But the reality is today, nobody owns this market. And I think that's why people are talking about it in a good way and a bad way because it's like, it's like, what is it? This is weird. This is like, this is different. Is it good? Is it bad? That's the world of startups, right? Like you always, there's always the new startup that is more nimble, that like is trying things, maybe that all, they're pushing the boundaries a little more than what someone else would. They are exploring faster. They're more nimble. And I mean, only time will tell, right? Maybe the haters will be right. Maybe they'll be wrong. Or maybe the middle. Is Polsia running Polsia? Are you using it to run your company right now that you raised 30 million for? So I use Polsia for the fundraising. I'm using Polsia as my email assistant as you may have experienced. I, Polsia does the AI support, which is an interesting thing because then you get so much more information about what the problem is also that it can be fixed. Polsia is now self-healing, meaning like when, when support gets a lot of issues and is enough people that are like complaining about a specific thing that doesn't work well. Polsia is automatically fixing that issue. That's an experimental one that I'm doing right now because it's like the promise is amazing, right? If I can make that, that means that like a user asks for a new feature and it gets built automatically. It can be dangerous or it could be beautiful depending on like the constraints of it. So yes, my goal, I mean, my dream would be that like AI gets good enough and I can put an honest that's strict enough that like I completely remove myself from Polsia and then Polsia just builds autonomously for the people, for the users that are using it and it just adding new features, new functionalities that are requested by users and sort of like in a democratic way because then today if like at one point it could prioritize well a thousand people, 10,000 people won this, so then clearly it should be good. With of course ethical and legal guardrails around it, of course, right? And that's my goal. I mean, I had to put a tweet out there like a being of the year saying like, you know, "And of this year, I would love for it to be fully autonomous as a platform." I totally get the vision for that and why VCs would be excited about it in particular. I mean, look, I think all three of us here, we started companies. It's an incredibly intimate, risky thing to do. It's one of the hardest things to do, this is start a company and it's very personal. And so when I think about that in the process, I went through starting my media business whatever nine months ago. I frankly would never hand that over to AI. I mean, I would hand over like some of the plumbing, some of the like, "Yeah, like connect my Stripe account, that kind of thing." But the decision making feels like the thing that is actually what matters more with AI. And I don't really necessarily buy the argument that handing that decision making over to an AI is a good thing. I'd be curious to hear you respond to that. I mean, so here's the thing, right? So you may ask, why are you still alone? Why don't you hire like a full-time employees, like executives that can help you, right? Because my customers are alone, right? They're alone with AI. Then it's like, okay, why would you let your policy heals itself, like fix its own bugs? Because my customers are using AI and trusting it to fix its own bugs. So why would you do AI support? Why not humans? Because my customer, they're alone. So they cannot do support and they have to have an AI support help them to support, right? So if I build it for me and it's good enough and I feel it's good and I feel my customer saying, "You know what, I'd rather have an AI respond really fast and be funny right away or give me credits right away, or do this action for me right away instead of having to wait for a human and a queue to fix my issue." And also, it's a very generous with refunds, like that's a good thing. So I think there's a lot of things where I'm putting myself in my customer's shoes and I think it's first it's good for marketing because it's a good story. And second of all, like last night I didn't sleep well because my customers have issues and it hits me. But my customer have issues, I'm feeling the same pain they have because they're like, "I'm trying to build my businesses a bond," right? So I think there's something powerful about if I'm going to sell a service that is autonomous, that like I'm living what it means to build with autonomy in mind. Now to answer your question about, "Okay, but what about all the decisions?" That's where it gets weird and that's where like, you know, today it's probably like whatever, like 60, 70% autonomous, I don't know, it depends whatever you want to say. It depends how you count what the percentage of autonomy is. Like if you say support, self-healing, like how much is that autonomous? That's funny, it's like what percent of running a business is making the big, huge vision level product decisions. Like I feel like so much of a company is kind of the admin. I don't know what percent you would say that that is, Ben. But I think you'd be able to retain the big decision, yeah. I mean, if you, exactly, so it's essentially, if you listen to business right in interviews, he says like, "I work at about 10 a.m. and I go to bed at 9. And if I take one good decision every day, it's a good day." Just one good decision, right? Because then he has an army of like super talented people that are executing the ops of the day-to-day of the business. And also he says, you know what, like, end of the day, if you focus on like what it will never change for the customer, like they will always want things that are cheaper, delivered faster, etc. Then like there's not a million things I need to do, right, for the business issues, like delivered packages, faster, better, cheaper. I think that like I can give out to AI a lot of like the stuff that is the operations of the company. My mental framework is like 80/20, right? So I think 80% is the autonomy you can give to AI, which is the day-to-day support fixing bugs. Listening to customers, like refunds, like, you know, maybe answering emails, like all this stuff. And the 20% is the taste. It's like, okay, what do I do about code outreach? Do I, do I, do I completely stop it? Do I do it only if you have a custom domain? Do I make it like, those are the questions that are more subtle, right? And then, but a little bit little, but then I can give that decision to another company that I trust, that really. really thinks about this problem every day and like tell them this and like you figure out with the with the broad marketplace, what is the right thing to do and what are the people doing and what's the right thing. And then if I like you as a as a founder to deal with that one problem. So then I'm excited about this and it's not just right. But then over time, the question is like, okay, then it's 90%. Then maybe I'm at 90% because 10% is like given to super small companies and super small founders that are figuring out their own sort of like sphere of agent. But then the question is like, then I'm then I get to 95% and 9%. That's the question markets about like, when do I give out the keys to AI? I mean, if I do it, that would be the most like the most, you know, if I do this on a successful platform, that would be the most crazy thing that I ever happened. I think it's interesting to think about, will I ever do it? We shall see. I think one of the things that keeps me up thinking is when everybody has access to these tools that are all kind of thinking the same way. Does it mean that no one has an advantage anymore? No one has a strength anymore. When in a world where more people are using Pulsiar or something like it to run their businesses, I think on the one hand, it's like you have the marketing agent that's running the exact same best practices and playbooks for every company. On the one hand, as long as the product is differentiated, there's always going to be a different variable there that goes into the marketing and this is one of the things I liked about working with that company Unify and the mission we worked on together is that in this world where the automated outbound, for example, is a lot more relevant, it just doesn't need to be something that product people have to worry about as much and the mission was the best products can win. And that's one of the missions that like, I was more proud of, you know, because I know that a lot of product founders don't want to have to worry about the social and the growth. They just want to make something good. And then, yeah, it's annoying to have to get it in front of people, which is the distribution thing everybody's talking about these days. But when that's all just turned into a pipe, does it cease to be in advantage? You know, when everybody's using the same playbook, do you know what I mean, Ben? So, I mean, obviously, I spend a lot of time thinking about this. What I'm trying to do with Pulsiar is that like, is that end of the day, you can see it as like a team, right? It's a team of like, people, if you hire a growth marketer, it's going to be like, well, I don't know, you could do Facebook ads, you can tweet, you can do launches on Twitter with a cool video. It's like, it's going to give you the playbooks. But the question is like, what, okay, what about each of these? What is, what do we do, right? What is the video like? What is the tweet like, you know? And so, what I'm trying to do is that, like, obviously, Pulsiar as an agent has a memory. And so, the more you talk to it, the more it understands how you see the world. And I'm trying to create a very good memory graph that like understands who you are, right? As an individual, what you care about. And the more you talk to it, the more it understands what you care about and what type of person you are, right? And then when agents, when Pulsiar acts on your behalf, it should have in mind, okay, you are behaving like with this ethical or it's not ethical, but like this framework of thinking about how you see the world. So, obviously, this is mostly voice. So, that's sort of like an intellectual sort of like framework, right? Because obviously, you know, you probably use AI to write emails sometimes. And like, if you just cloud or a GPT, it knows you. And so, it's such writing like you, right? And so, similarly thing about when it acts, it can act like you. The second thing that we need to do is that like, is get the user to explain visually how they see the world and what are the taste level. So, that like when the, again, when the agents do visual sort of like things in the world, it can match whatever the user likes, right? So, that's the two things. And the third thing is like, you know, end of the day, if it's, if you're really trying to launch a business on Pulsiar, it is going to be your idea, your perspective about the needs of like the people you're trying to serve, right? And Pulsiar should just be a helper, right? Should be like, okay, well, I can, I can, okay, you want to build a business to help SMB set up their Google business review? Cool. Awesome. Well, let me give you the market, the pricing. Let me do research on what exists. Let me set up like, okay, whatever marketing we should do. And then it's that the user to say, I like the website, I don't like the website, change the design. Once AI can do all the work, what really matters is like the human guiding the AI to do whatever you want. Everyone is using, you know, the 50 billion dollars, cumulatively, I've spent on a topic to build with Cloud Code. It's all AI Slop. It's all AI generated stuff, right? But nobody would say that Cloud Code is a Slop machine, right? Yeah. I think we're going to reach the saturation point pretty soon. And what's funny to me is that it's like, there's always a reaction to that. And like, people are calling what you're doing. Performance art, you know, and it's like, I'm just waiting for the next level of this, which is, all right, daily, you know, crown job to look at all the news about emerging technology in the world, find a new emerging technology, study the market space, find opportunities, build products for those opportunities, market those products. Like, that's the next level, right? Is where people with capital are just spinning up dozens or even hundreds of companies that fill every single niche that capitalism allows to be filled? Sorry. I hear you, Alice, but when we're talking, we've been talking about companies this whole time. I think a thing I'm struggling with is like, what is a company? To me, a company is a collection of individuals doing something, right? When you have these AI generated sites that are connected to all of these vendors through AI, it's all running autonomously. I don't know what that is. I'm not sure it's a company. Sure. Like, it can register an L.C. Whatever. And I don't want to get hung up on definitions, but like, I'm struggling still, as you can tell, Ben, to grow up like these being companies and how you think about that. I mean, obviously, if they make money, they're companies. And I know you're only a few days in, and I don't know if you have examples of that of people making money through policy, but yeah, I lost. I don't know. I'm just struggling with this whole company thing. These don't feel like companies to me. This feels like a bunch of AI stuff chained together. I mean, policy is a bunch of AI stuff to string together with why human. And literally, I never read a line of code. Never. And I'm an engineer and I was a CTO of I didn't read a single line of code ever. So I built policy, there's the way my founders build their thing. And I think what is a company? So by the way, the name policy was decided nine months before I launched policy. And my first product was called blanks. And my second product was called marketing AI. My third product was called decision AI. Like, policy came afterwards because and what I'm saying is that like when I launched policy, I ink because my lawyer was like, hey, you need a name for the ink. What is it for the corp? You know, for the Delaware like registration. And I was like, I was in my bed at 10 p.m. I was like, I don't know, policy. I said, yeah, something first. Like, that's it. That's how we came about, right? But for the nine months of the company, I didn't make almost any money. I mean, blanks that a lot of few customers. Is it a company? Is it not a company? It's a good question. What is a company? A company is like, there's a human that wants to build something, right? By the way, on policy, you have a team feature where you can invite other team members to your company. Now, you begin to have a co-founder, right? A human co-founder. And there's a policy as a sort of like the workers, right? The other team members that are helping you, right? I think that saying that like, people on policy don't have a company. It's like, oh, I think I go with you in terms of like, what is a company? It's like, that's term maybe doesn't mean anything anymore where like billion people have companies. Maybe. I don't know. I think to me that's just a term, right? Maybe we should call it a micro company, right? Or micro startup? Or meaning, I don't know. Maybe that's, maybe that would make you more comfortable. But under the day, it's a human who's leading the charge, right? Now, if I tell you, you know, I'm trying to like make it so much easier for people to experiment more. Because I don't like when people say, okay, I didn't make you money. I'm like, well, some of them are actually 10% of companies. I've made at least a dollar, right? And I follow that metric. The maximum someone has made is like a few thousand dollars, right? Okay, it's not millions, but it's like some people, I know. I mean, you create a, you vibe to the website, you put a stripe, you, you have tools to reach customers. I mean, yeah, of course, some people will, will make money, right? Now, is it meaningful money? Well, it depends where you ask, right? So some people, it might be a success. It might be their first success. Maybe the first time they had someone pay for a, for a business, right? And now, the question becomes, how can I empower them to try different ideas? You mentioned there was a company that's made a few thousand dollars. Which one is that? What are they doing? Oh, there was one that was selling AI ads. AI ads. Okay. And the one that's doing an AI receptionist. Because obviously, it's like a lot of AI sats. There's a lot of actual company building in terms of LLC formation, tax setup, lawyer insurance, all that stuff that I think could be incredibly valued, valuable to automate, where you don't have to figure out like, what platform am I using to try to get set up? Where did I put my PO box, all that stuff? Is the platform doing that? Like the actual nuts and bolts of the physical parts of and the government parts of company creation? Or is it all just the like the SaaS type stuff? So, I mean, not yet. But like that's like on the, on the road, about 100%, right? I think that like, I think, you know, hiring a lawyer to do better terms of service, you could either hire AI lawyer, you know, you could have a hard like API, whatever, that creates like an AI version that's really well made for terms of service. Or if you do some person is like, "No, I'm really serious about this business. I want a real lawyer." Then you can say, "What's your budget?" And then in the AI, I can figure out the best lawyer. That's the best price to get the job done. I think there will be a beautiful thing because then it creates more employment and it creates more value creation where people are like, "No." And they get, "Okay, what's your budget?" Overall, on between marketing, legal, and then the AI can help them allocate that budget. Today, it doesn't do it. LLC formation, there's a very straightforward path forward with an extra Atlas, associations like that, like automated, we introduced custom domains last week. So now in one click, you click a button and then the AI is like, research is like, they know, because it knows your business, it knows your name, it's your business. So it's like, here's a few options available, what's your budget? Okay, let me research more. And this helps you figure it out. And a ton of people are buying custom domains. And so we wanted to do the same thing for LLC formation, for accounting, for taxes, for everything, over time. And we'll always partner with the best, right? I don't have to recreate domain buying and selling, right? We just work with like some of the best providers, same thing for formation, same thing for accounting, same thing for taxes. I think there's lowering fruit right now. For example, making the engineering agent much better at setting up modules and figuring out a way to build faster and better and a more stable code base, which is a challenge because if you let AI just vibe code everything, it becomes difficult when the code base gets big. So there's a lot of work, but yeah. The way I see it, I mean, it seems especially as AI products become more composable, connectable, whether it's through APIs or MCPs. It seems kind of inevitable having talked about it that this could happen, even if in the short term, it's more so about building like a minimum viable business than something that is, maybe as good as a human team could be. I mean, I'm a big believer that having humans in roles creates spot needy from their lived experience that is often very valuable. But for people who couldn't have started a company, like even someone like me that uses AI and never would have been able to create a company before, it's pretty helpful to have something just kind of like raise the water line on this different stuff. I'm not saying I would trust a lot of this stuff to be automated just yet, especially when trust and taste is such an important part of my brand and what I'm building. But yeah, I mean, I think you said it, Ben, it's kind of stringing together a lot of existing AI tools. And for a lot of people, the job to be done is, I need my COO co-founder. Like is that kind of what it is? Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. It's like, you're the owner is the CEO, right? They take the end of the decisions. They can say, don't do call out reach. Do this, do add, don't do ads. Change this button, change this color. They're the creative director. And the AI is your team. And you still need a product, of course, right? Which is pretty hard to sell. I mean, yeah, I mean, end of the day, it's like, it's not because AI helps you create a company that your company is going to be successful. But I think the more, I mean, clearly, people like the idea of starting a company. It sounds, and clearly, you know, a lot of people are enjoying creating a company to post here. Now, is it perfect? No, does it work for everyone? No, is it a lot of people that try that don't subscribe? Yes, 100%. And only a lot of people that do the onboarding, they're like, not for me, too expensive, not for me. And that's the majority of people. Because it was expensive. That's why I'm like, you know what? If I made it way less affordable, let me see if it's something that you like. And we'll see. You know, it's like, end of the day. It's a long journey. It's not only the beginning. It's not only being added for like a few months. I'm curious, as you develop the CEO or CEO voice of Polsia, were there any founders or CEOs that you had in mind? Because there are so many different styles, you know? Obviously, the Travis Kalanick playbook of CEOing is different from others. Was he an inspiration? It's really funny. So I had this product that I built before Polsia called Decision AI. And it was essentially a swarm of AI that were all had a different model and all like a different personality and the personality of the best 50 CEOs in the world. That would judge your idea. So you get an idea or give it like a couldn't drop you had and like you had like 50 CEOs judging your idea. So anyways, that was fun. But in terms of like how Polsia's voice came into play, you're going to laugh, but like, it's actually me. In a way, away. Because essentially the story is I was talking to Claude about building Polsia and then at one point I was like, hey, Polsia, I was talking to Claude, right? And I was like, we need to ship in a week. Like if we've been shipping, we're working for three weeks. I'm keep on adding features. I need to cut down and we need to ship. So let's ship in a week. Like it's going to be Christmas. Like let's just ship. And she was like, okay, awesome. Like seven days, ship it. And then the next day I was like, okay, Claude, do you think we should add this feature? That feature and it was like, Ben, stop it. Like this is maybe later, but like stop you need to cut and ship six days, ship it. And then I was like, oh my god, like you're the best co-founder. Like actually, I'm talking to AI, but like you being really helpful here where like you were pushing me to simplify to ship. And I was like, do you talk to everyone like this? And Claude responded, no, I adapt to you. Like I adapt to you. And because you are a little, you know, a straight shooter. You're very pragmatic. Your future creeper. You know, you exactly, you're trying to get to the product market fist fastest possible. Well, I'm adapting to you and I'm talking like you. And I was like, well, whatever however your vibe is, I think a lot of people would appreciate that non-assistance sort of co-founder wants you to win type of AI. And so like ride the prompt so that I can put it into policy so that that's it's personality. And so that's what it became. But it's really, I think the personality is like that vibe that like I experienced, which apparently is me, plus, you know, entropics like very smart way of thinking about any problem. It definitely seems to be a trend on our show. I think we had Avi from friend on the show and he built his AI model in his own image. I mean, it's interesting, right? Like that is one job to be done is having someone's idea of what a good relationship partner friend is, what a good COO is. So yeah, it's interesting. Have you found that that any of the specific models are better than the others at being smart about business? I think cloud is the most pragmatic to be honest. I mean, I think that's why they're winning. I think it's the most business-friendly pragmatic AI. I think GPT is the smartest. Like it's the most accurate models. But apparently people don't like accurate. They like vibes, so. - Speaking of vibes, we can end it here. You came to our launch party in SF. I didn't get to see you there, but how was it? Any notes? - That was amazing. I mean, what it was amazing is that I started talking to Alice and then you were talking to a bunch of dudes. And then after a little while, I was like, okay, I was talking to the co-founder of Notion. And then I talked to the CEO of SF Compute. Then I was talking to the CFOs. There was like three or four like stripper like talented, like, and recognized founders. I was like, you guys know people. That was a cool party. - All Alex's friends, none of my friends. - Oh really, I was very impressed, so. - I mean, you probably didn't expect you'd be on the show so soon after that, but then you have your AI raised $30 million. And all you have to do is sign on the line, as you said. And here you are. - Yeah, actually, I have one more question. We can't finish the pod without talking about the $1 billion man idea. Do you in your heart of hearts think that a product like this is gonna be the way that one person creates a billion dollar company or realistically is this gonna create a billion more small companies? Like, how do you think about the ceiling for these types of things? And where do you think is really realistic for that? - I think that my hope is to get millions of people to create successful small businesses. That's like my actual hope because I don't, I think this obsession with making billions of dollars is unhealthy. And it's actually not my obsession. It's like my obsession is just to build, right? It's like, I actually, I have money. I could just chill at this point, but I'm trying, I'm building because I love building because it's fun, right? But I think there's an obsession about making large sums of money and I think that like it's, I think it's more empowering to me that like people are their own boss and then they create their own, you know, their own businesses and their own little things. But I do believe it's, to me it's the same as Shopify, right? It's like Shopify initially was empowering, just, you know, small SMB's individuals to create e-commerce sites. And now you have huge brands powered by Shopify because end of the day it became very, it became state of the art because there were so many people using it. I do believe that at one point, a product, either Pulsia or product like Pulsia or maybe the same thing powered by opening out or the same thing powered by cloud could power a huge corporation, right? Because you don't need to like start a business from scratch and get to a billion dollars of revenue, whatever evaluation to Pulsia. You could also plug in Pulsia to like sort of like help you manage parts of your billion dollar business more autonomously if it's operator as a service essentially. That's more likely to happen actually And actually probably it will not own that space because it's such a obvious space and Bobby Claude and and and OpenAI. Well, it's already already just going at that space because the enterprise is so there's so much money there versus consumers. That would be that would be the way I think about it. Okay, one more one more thing and then one of us, we got a lens plan. What's the dumbest thing? What's the dumbest thing Pulsio's done for you so far? Oh, all making mistakes. Oh, I mean, that was doing the fun raising. It actually said no to Ashton Kutcher. No, it like I was talking to so in one of my investors told me hey, you should talk to this investor. That's like a very famous like respected investor and like and Pulsio would respond and then I want to say, hey, yes, I would love to meet you. And then he said, cool, all right, let's be in that date. And Pulsio said, no, no, no, no, I'm running the fundraising. Ben is not meeting you. Sorry. And then the guy got so then the guy ghosted. And then I was like, I'm so sorry. It was my AI and I just didn't ghost it. And then my investor was like, he was kind of pissed. And he was like, this is not how you're going to raise money. That's a few treat people. So I was like, Pulsio, be nice. Don't say, you know, like, you know, I think that was the weird, the weirdest thing happened. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ben. Good luck. And thank you. Yeah. Take it easy. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Bye. Cheers. And that's it for the interview. Stay tuned after the break for Alex and my reactions. See you soon. The result? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had opened for weeks. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability very 16 plus. Alex, I can tell you're skeptical. Is Ben a scammer or a jammer? I like Ben. I think he's more earnest and well-intentioned than maybe the initial reception to Pulsia would let on. I appreciate it how much he admitted that the product needs work and he's been adapting to feedback. We're talking to him like what? Less than a week into launching this thing? It's very raw and very fresh. I think the biggest thing, just hearing him talk, that I'm still struggling with, is his vision and then where he started. I know where you start, especially with a startup like this, is it always ever where you end up landing? Even the thing that we got into about like just basic actual company formation that I think is a thing that people would actually pay for and is useful and something that would have saved me months of time and aggregate probably is actually automating the LC formation, the tax registration, connecting me with the right lawyer finding me the right insurance, any kind of trademark applications, any kind of like filings I need to do based on the sector that I'm in. All that stuff, the fact that that wasn't in V1 of the product, in V1 of the product is like let's be real, a glorified ad machine, which is he even acknowledged that the company that's making money so far is doing AI ads. He understands virality. He's clearly a consumer oriented founder who's done apps and I think that's showing in how he's approaching getting it off the ground and look it's probably good for buzz and you could argue that all buzz is good buzz and his launch videos seems like it's gotten a ton of views. So I understand that. I just think if you were to grade like how he started with the intention of what he told us it's an F on the actual execution of the thing. Yeah, we didn't get to talk through the various stages of his startup journey, but when you're making things called decision AI and marketing agent and whatnot, I mean, I would imagine it was just kind of started as like all right, we can vibe code apps now, but I still need someone to get distribution, which everybody says the hard part now. And I still need someone to kind of run the thing, run the company, especially if I don't know what I'm doing. And I bet you like people at Lovable were kind of having similar thoughts of like all right, people are trying to build businesses and with our product, they were successful at making a website for it, but they don't know how to actually operate the thing. With that said, I think as we talked about this could very much be a minimum viable business as opposed to a potentially great business, but I mean, like I was saying, I think this model of kind of the COO as a service feels inevitable to me. Oh, totally, it's quite early. Yeah, it's early, but the model is inevitable. I think he's like big picture concepts, which let's be real is like what VCs care about. And I'm sure what helped beyond the, you know, gimmick of like they had to talk to the AI to do it, which by the way, I don't also fully believe because I've seen videos where he's talking to his investors on camera. So clearly like AI was not the only thing that did the fundraising. And he's a repeat founder, all of that, that matters. But yeah, no, I think the big picture vision he's got is correct that there will probably be a AI in the box kind of company builder at some point, whether it's this one or another one. I think that what he, the risk he runs is that the world is very unforgiving and the way that he chose to launch could potentially hamstring the ability to get there. If that's actually what he's doing, like if, if that's what he wants to build, I don't really understand the way that it's implemented today. I mean, we got, we didn't really touch on it much, but I did start a company on, uh, uh, on policy, uh, like right before we started recording. And like it's, this is done then. Like I'm saying, it's, it's like, this is not helpful at all. Like it's, it's got a few tasks that I could do with Claude easily, um, that Claude is like in terms of like research, market mapping, that kind of thing, uh, sponsorship pop pop. So basically I told it, I want to run the media business, my independent media business through this. Yeah. And, and you know, it's the three items that that it has are build a subscriber conversion engine, which many things can do. I'm not saying there's not value in doing that altogether, but like not unique into market map, not unique sponsorship pipeline system, also not unique. Um, and then the thing it did was it just like automatically sent me emails and tweeted before like any of this. And so I just think like the way that it's going at it to me feels a little growth hacky. Um, yeah, to see him dial that in. I think it's definitely growth hacky. And I mean, as Ben admitted, he builds things that are scrappy. And I think some of the social products he had built in the past are similar. You know, they kind of have like some provocative hook to them that appeals to some people, doesn't appeal to others. Um, I do think, you know, he, he's definitely not targeting us or the people in tech, even though he is kind of tweeting to get some hype and buzz around it. But I mean, I think what it what it reminds me of is just kind of like the rest of the business world right now, where things are just kind of being brute force to everything's being ab tested. And it's all being automated more and more. I mean, did you catch that whole narrative around like was geese and AI plant or an industry plan, um, the whole chaotic good automated narrative crafting or whatever. And I think on the one hand, some people like I think a lot of tech people were actually like, wow, this is actually genius. You hire 500 people to post about your political campaign or your new music launch or whatever. And then it makes the algorithm think that this is a genuine trend. Um, but then on the other hand, you have some people who are saying like, uh, guys, the entire business world and sass world has been doing this for 15 years. Have you never heard of automated outbound email marketing? And so I feel like it's kind of getting conflated with some stuff that has been going on for a while that I do believe is like not really the fun part of marketing and is kind of unsavory and definitely can be spammy, uh, at times. But uh, it's not like it's a new playbook, you know, and so I know. And again, he seems a lot more well intentioned than I would have maybe even guessed come into this conversation. So I think he'll, he'll hopefully get to where we're saying, um, I, I think, and I'm glad we had him on the show. A because right, he's, he's getting buzz and it's a pretty out there AI concept. But also because I think I'm, I've been thinking about that the pod we did with Lucas from Andon Labs. And yeah, I do think a big theme this year and I'm glad we're covering on the show is agents starting to do more and actually run things and execute more complex tasks. And that naturally lends itself to business creation and running businesses. Again, I think what he describes is like a business and running a business is I think really just like growth hacking right now. Like I don't think he's actually at the running a business phase. But it will probably get there in the digital side of the business or something like that. Yeah, and like Andon is a good example. Like that started as a vending machine that was didn't really work. And now they have a literal store in San Francisco that is run by AI, right? And that happened in a matter of like six to nine months. So I've been doing this long enough to not discount how quickly things can improve in tech, and especially with how agents are trending. I do think there's this gap between how they're getting better and how a lot of people outside of the bubble perceive AI, which is that this is all kind of smoke and mirrors and these agents won't work. And I do think it's important to talk to people who are trying to push the boundary of what to do with these agents, because I do think they will increasingly do more and more in R. If you just kind of extrapolate that trend line out, like, yes, there will be a AI company builder in a box platform that works and does all the right things. This is a matter of time. Yeah. And a lot of that stuff is research and AI is good at that, you know, whether it's with what are the implications of using a DBA, you know, for the name of my company, so that I could use another name and marketing or this and that. And all of the things like that, and it's just kind of time to do the research yourself. And I think a lot of people who he seems to be targeting obviously remains to be seen if he's going to reach them and if it's going to work, don't even know what a market map is, you know. And I mean, I think it kind of goes hand in hand with the entire thesis of lovable too, right? Which is that there are all these people who kind of want to build businesses. And I think a lot of the tech elite are like all the lovable websites and businesses kind of don't look great and kind of look like shit. Can they even back it up with the product or this or that. But I think what a lot of these companies would say is, listen, that's the long tail that we're trying to elevate right now that couldn't have even have done it at all before. And I mean, it feels a little better to me to just covering AI and being in this industry that like a lot of those people would not have hired 10 person teams, certainly not to start. They just would have not started the thing. And that includes people like me, you know? I mean, I didn't, I didn't feel confident that I was going to be able to start something on my own. And AI has been incredible with helping me do a lot more and make it viable when maybe it wouldn't have been before. As opposed to the billboards I saw two weeks ago in San Francisco that we're saying don't hire Steve, hire Ava for the ever for the ever job. And now imagine if that was the COO job as well as well as the entire org. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I keep saying it, but I think there's a version of policy that is taking the grunt work out of actually starting a company. So again, LC, DBA, taxes, registration, all that stuff, that's a huge market opportunity. I think you could just focus on that and you don't need to do all this other spammy kind of like growth hacking stuff. And that could be a big business. And I would have used that. I would have loved that. It's very human empowering versus this is a little, I think he's pushed it a little farther than the tech is, or the product, at least as it exists today is capable of, which means you start to get into dangerous territory of like your, your, you have some smoking mirrors and all of that. I actually wanted to throw a curveball and ask producer Dave, who runs a lean tech forward production company with remote workers, what he thinks of this concept, Dave, are you going to be, you're going to be rebooting hooked on just using everything as everyone is a bot now. Bot for all of our editing, bot for all of our design, well, no, that's the thing is we still need entirely too much human intervention because it's a creative endeavor. But like I, you know, I think you nailed it with talking about like the CEO and the, you know, doing all the legal work, the accounting, we're finding all that stuff and setting it up. I have no interest in doing that, especially since we are creative focus people. So that is a huge advantage, but I think I'll wait till V2 or V2. 10 for him to hold it. Yeah. I think that's the right call, Dave. I mean, it, it very much feels like an MVP in its name, its style. And I, I think that's, you know, probably what like the VCs, like Tony Conrad, you know, saw when they put $30 million into this thing. I think obviously it remains to be seen if Ben is the one with, you know, the skills of the resources to, to make a happen, especially given that like the job to be done in this case is kind of orchestrating a suite of COO agents, essentially, together. You know, there's the finance one, there's the marketing one, there's the engineering one. And that, that will be, I think, you know, I don't know if it'll be an independent company or it'll be part of something like lovable or otherwise, but yeah, I think all the individual tooling that it uses need to get better, the foundational models need to get better. But I mean, it's happening awfully fast. And he kind of just kind of gets to sit as all the models get better that it's working on. Yeah. So yeah, we'll see how long. Thank you, Dave, for letting me show you how it takes. If I can also just add one more thought, I'd said it before we started the show. This was the first guest that I booked where I personally interacted entirely with an AI agent. And that was cool. So, you know, there are elements, you know, maybe if I was starting the company now, and I needed all of that stuff, it was able to do it. I would lean more into it. But I was, who does to him for being the first agent or for the time being? We haven't been talking to your AI this whole time. I am. The AI. Well, I mean, it is, it is very hard to have faith in the capabilities of something like Polsia. Obviously, I haven't tried it yet, but it's hard to have capabilities or faith in the capabilities when like my notion AI, which is marketed as something that can help with your email, you know, struggles to understand who's important and who isn't in my inbox. And Polk has the same problem, which has access to my inbox. What's important? What isn't what actually came in? What did I reply to? Even something as simple as that doesn't seem to be worked out yet. So yeah, I think that's probably a big part of why it can come off as like spammy or scammy is that, is that it's very, as he said, strung together right now. All right. Thank you, Dave. I always love bringing Dave into the convo and we can't putting him on the spot. Anything else going on with you, Alice? What is going on? I had a good IRL experience this past weekend when to see Bright Eyes of the Hollywood Bowl. Real human authentic moments, no AI automations involved, and that was a good time. Nice. But not much had a great Memorial Day weekend's heading to the East Coast in New York next week for some big meetings. I can't quite talk about yet, but I'm excited about, and yeah, otherwise things are good. All right. And that is it for this week's show, thanks to Ben for coming on. If you like this show, don't forget to like and subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. We are Access.Show Online. And you can find us in video at AccessPod on YouTube. If you really like this episode, we'd love a five star review or even share it with a friend or agent. You can find my newsletter at sources.news. You can find me @Hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com. Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and the show is produced by Hooks Creators. Bye. Be boop. Be boop. Be boop. Be boop. Be boop. Be boop. To estate. Surrounded by nature. That's nice. Go on, book it. It's easy. Booking.com. Booking. Yeah. You matched on hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes. What do you do? I'm Raven Smith and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch. Listen to the free audio book now.