Is It Our ADHD, OCD, and PTSD? Or Is It Us?

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte, or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. So the big one, of course, is the child. She's 18 months old, and she's our first child. We're never prepared for what kids are going to bring up in us. Since having a kid, he was in basically the worst depression of his life. Tons and tons of crippling anxiety. You know, she got pregnant quickly, and here we go. And in response to that, my anxiety and depression just shot through the roof last year. Everything became just so anxiety-provoking around our child's sleep, around her eating enough, like everything. And I was kind of in the opposite world, where I wasn't anxious, and I wasn't. Super overwhelmed with it. And even to the point where I actually really want to have another child, and he's like, do you remember what it was like for me? A lot of that comes down to money as well, and where we are with money. She decided early on that she didn't really want to continue work as it was, and she wanted to be a full-time mom, and wanted to move into illustration and being an artist. That's been a slow process. I have wanted to be an artist, and an illustrator for my whole life. And now I had a kid, and I really liked staying at home with her, but we're running out of money, and he can't support us on his income only. So he's really pushed me and asked me, hey, it's time. If you want this dream, you have to choose it now. And then I will get mired in self-doubt, and say that I will do things, and then I have a lot of trouble actually doing them. There's issues of. Neurodivergence, my partner's ADHD, and my, what might be neurodivergence, or CPTSD, or both. The last piece that's very big for us is our non-neurotypical-ness. I have ADHD. He believes he has autism. And so both of us have very different ways of relating to the world. And that also plays into our struggles with communicating, with being kind to each other, and supporting each other. When I read the intake interviews about the changes that had happened in this couple's life, they have an 18-month-old, they experienced the transition to parenthood, they experienced changes in their professional lives, but they also had a lot, a lot of jargon, a lot of therapy speak, a lot of words that are meant to help understand the other person. But in fact, they muddle it. It becomes a conversation of acronyms. ADHD, CPTSD, autism, neurodivergence. And there is definitely a need to attend to any of these acronyms. But also there's a need to understand the role they play in a relationship, and the way that sometimes they are used between partners. All right. Let me do a quick pulse check with each of you. Where are you? Where do I find you? Not just geographically, but also mood, relationship, internal weather. We're in our house. I'm in my daughter's bedroom. And I'm feeling a little bit nervous, excited. How old is your daughter? She is 18 months. And is she there? She is gone with a friend. Wonderful. Yeah. This is the first time that we've actually put her in someone else's charge for this long of a period. And you experience relief, freedom, space, or you experience primarily anxiety, worry, concern at your daughter being with a friend? Or even joy? Joy, for that matter. Joy. Yeah. Joy, yeah. Joy. Faciousness. Great. It's been a thing for a long time where I really felt like we need to create that space with her. I was ready for not the right reasons, maybe. What does that mean? What are not good reasons? To make my anxiety go away. My anxiety? About? Literally everything. Yes, but what is the problem with doing things that diminish your anxiety? Why is that framed as something negative? Oh, because what I've learned this year is that anxiety is a block to being able to live life in some capacity. And this year has been showing up to those scary things in service of the life that I want. In the past few days, I just had a meeting with my business coach, and he brought me to saying something that not only dissolved all my imposter syndrome, it also dissolved this very powerful story that I'm pointless, that my life is pointless, that I'm never going to be the person that I'm supposed to be. And it all came out of that. And it all came out in this one very simple phrase. And the phrase was? The phrase was, I help people solve their problems. And it didn't require me to be anything but what I was. I identify as an Enneagram 4, so there's a lot of staying in my own world and feeling lack and loss and grief and non-inclusion. And that's what's really changing this year after a really, really horrible year last year. Is it important for me to know about last year, or is there a different place for us to start? I wish we had recorded literally the 30 conversations we've had approaching this time. Maybe I want to start asking you about that. How did you prepare and what has come up? Like, what is the session that you have had or the sessions in preparation of this session? Do we want to just like rattle them off? There's so many. There was the one, and this is kind of a little self-serving, there was the one where she, for the first time, turned to me and said, I'm pretty sure I have OCD and I've been very controlling about things. And that has been something I've been like waiting to hear and just have a shared understanding around so we can move through it. I often say in the beginning of a session that I'd like to meet the people before I meet their problems, because I sincerely believe that we are more than just the problems that we face. And the same is true for our diagnosis. It is helpful to know if we struggle with ADHD or if we have neurodivergence or if we are on the spectrum. All these terms that have really proliferated in the last year, have helped us articulate ourselves, make sense of who we are, understand our relationship to others and to ourselves. But I sometimes use them more cautiously, because we sometimes also can run into the danger to collapse a person into a diagnosis, to see them only through one lens. Many people live with health and mental health conditions. That doesn't define their entire being. It says a lot about them. But it doesn't say everything about them. And the last thing I would want to do in my work is curb the curiosity for knowing more, because we think we know, because we have the refuge of the labels. There's another conversation where we both acknowledge that for as much as we love and care about each other, we've been so focused on our own survival, that we've treated the other person's coping mechanisms as a problem. And I was setting up a dynamic where I responded to her with judgment, annoyance, trying to change her, shaming her, telling her she's doing it wrong. So that became a standard way of our interacting. So we had two accountability sessions and you connect them to the fact that we were going to have our conversation today. Why? I tend to be the space taker and so I would really like to create space for her to share. For her? Yes. This was a very nice move on his part to know that he had had a chance to express himself at quite some length and to just basically say, I know I can take the space. I want her to join us at home. At this moment. And I didn't say it and I'm saying it now. I feel like the two of us are really committed to each other and really invested in each other. And we've spent a long time in our relationship caring about one another's struggles. But we also feel so stubborn and so adamant about ourselves getting heard and feeling like we're really being taken seriously by the other person. I think that's like a huge part of why we just keep running into the same problems and pretty much every area of our lives is that we both care about each other deeply, but we don't trust each other to really care about the other person as much as we want to. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. Say that again. We care about each other deeply, but the other person doesn't trust it. Yeah. So I care about you, but you don't trust that that's what I do. Yeah. And how does that distortion get created? What is it that you do, each of you, that lets the other person think you don't have my back? I think our. Our actions and our words are different. I certainly know that for myself with my ADHD. I struggle to actually do the things that we've spoken about in our partnership as important. He used to ask me for a Monday meeting every single week where we would sit down and we would talk together about what's coming up during the week, what we're going to do. And I think I made that Monday meeting appropriate. I think I made that Monday meeting a priority maybe twice in the many, many months that we tried to do it. Something would come up. I need a snack. I need to go to the bathroom. I could barely sit still. And I don't know why that was always happening at these Monday meetings that were very important to my partner. And I wanted them to be a priority. And I felt so. Rebellious. Yeah, yeah. Rebellious is a huge part of my life. So, would it be accurate to say we care about each other deeply, but we don't necessarily support the requests of our partner because we also experience these requests as controlling? Yes, absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. So, we are very kind, compassionate people who get into partnership. So, we don't call them power struggles, but we don't name them as power struggles. Well, we do, actually. Okay. Because one of the things that I have said is that I feel like I have no agency, that she wears the pants in the family. And I often state it in very either harsh or just like big energy, but it's like they're angry ways because I feel small, because I don't think they're going to be listened to and respected. So. But then I'll say something like, well, this isn't going to work anyway, or you're not going to do this, or I don't know what the point of this is. And then she complies. She complies. She basically acts in a way that completely agrees with what you just said. It's not going to work. Nothing's going to happen. Yes. She complies with that. She complies. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. It's interesting to hear him say that he doesn't feel he has agency in the relationship. Especially after both of them have just acknowledged that he can shrink her into a tiny shrimp. He can make her doubt herself. He can tell her that she's not proactive enough, that she's not confident enough about her job. He can rattle down a list of things that she does wrong. But in his mind, he's doing that because he feels small himself. And as a result, he tries to bring her down to the same level. That's where he is. And what's very interesting for me in listening to them is that they are full of self-awareness. And they even have a lot of awareness about what they do to each other. But it doesn't serve them. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. 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That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin. The new Iced Pumpkin Cream Matcha or the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Shaken Espresso. You can find your favorite taste of fall. Only at Starbucks. You know, I had a period, I tried to set up a lot of systems because I'm a systems thinker. But yeah, it was that sense of like, okay, we'll try this. Okay, we'll try this. And then none of the things worked out. And I felt very alone. And the metaphor that I've been using a lot lately, the idea that I'm running around plugging holes on a boat left and right and that's my entire existence. And I can imagine you saying, where is she on this? And I'm like, oh, she's up at the top deck pointing it at all the beautiful islands that she wants to go to and grabbing the steering wheel and sort of pulling it left and right while I'm down here by myself, being like, there's this massive hole. And now there's all these other little holes that keep popping up every day that I have to keep fixing, keep fixing, keep fixing, which as you can tell, anxiety. And really the question that I felt like we could bring to you was like, how do we get it so we're steering the ship? And plugging the holes together. That's your question. That's my question. What's your question? I want to know what's it going to take for us to trust each other. I think the way that we communicate feels like we don't believe each other's on the same team. And so. I really want to find a way that we can connect and care about each other in our everyday life instead of what do you do? It feels like now everything that I say to him, he's taking it as I'm judging him. I'm telling him he's wrong. I'm telling him he did something. That isn't working. You know, I will say something to him like, oh, I'd really like for the baby's food to be cut a little smaller. And he'll say, I've got it. I know what I'm doing. Don't tell me what to do. And he's always feeling it seems like he can never do something right for me. And I think if we trusted each other more, he would know I wasn't coming from that space. I was just sharing my preference. In highly reactive couples, this is very common. If somebody says something about the food, the other person hears it as if it's about them. Everything gets personalized and seen as an attack. They talk about trust. They talk about vulnerability. They talk about anxiety, depression. They don't talk about aggression. But in fact, the relationship is permeated. It's permeated by aggression, covert and overt. And I think they're trying to behave very well in front of me. But when they say these things to each other, as she just said, around the cutting of the food, and he says, you know, once again, it's not the right. I'm imagining in myself a reaction in him where he feels attacked. It's that differentiation that needs to happen. That is first and foremost to distinguish between a criticism and a request. And at this moment, this is blurred. And the other way around, how does it go? Yeah. I feel like I'm pretty generous with the requests he makes, but I often question them. And that also creates a lot of distrust. He brought something to me a couple of weeks ago and said, I'd really like to consider this as a new way of thinking about our child's sleep. And I said, well, I don't know. And I said, well, I don't really believe that. I don't really see it that way. And when I say something like that, he'll often say, I really would have appreciated if you had said, wow, that's a great insight. I'm so glad you're learning that. That is so cool. I really want to support you. And I don't know that I trust that or that's not my opinion. But I often come back immediately with a response. With some kind of triggered way of being that is just not appreciating and acknowledging him for the work that he's done. When he says, I've got this, I know how to cut the food. You think, oh, how could I say something and he not take it so personal? Or you get annoyed? Probably both. I wish that I could say something in a way that didn't make him feel bad about himself or wrong for doing something. But I also recognize that I comment on pretty much everything. And that's not necessarily helpful in a relationship. If when I sit with a couple and I see one person putting the other one down, there is a difference. There's a sense of, oh, that's the direction of the arrows. But then if you wait long enough, you suddenly realize that actually the other person is doing something quite similar. So they are symmetric. They are both doing the same thing to each other. That's part of why they're both able to recognize we don't trust each other enough. We care deeply about each other. But in fact, in our interactions, that's not what we end up experiencing. And yet they both say, we have this deep connection and we could do better. And they find themselves a bit miffed that they are derailing. And they don't understand why they're at each other's throat much of the time. You know, you talk a lot about issues of trust. But I'm sensing other things as well. And I have a bit of a dilemma because you are very, very articulate people and you are extremely jargonized. You have internalized the entire vocabulary of modern psychology. You label every behavior. You label yourself. It's like you're not unhappy, you're depressed. You're not worried, you're anxious. You're not rebellious, you're ADD. You're not pissed that he's telling you what to do and you absolutely don't like anybody telling you what to do. And so it becomes OCD. And my reluctance is I don't want to add to that. Because I want to create more air and space between the two of you that isn't psychologizing, jargonizing, and pathologizing. Because that, I don't see where that helps with trust. Sometimes it's good to know and to know. And to name things, don't misunderstand me. But this, it's like everything is labeled. So in effect, you never say what you feel. You know, when you say I'm a systems guy, she's rebelling and you are saying I have better systems. And you're not actually reading when she says, I don't want all these structures. Then, you're suddenly saying, I don't know what to do. And then you suddenly start to feel depleted and defeated. It becomes depressive energy. It's a dance between the two of you that has a few elements. A, it has pieces of power struggles, but not acknowledged as such. Spoken about in the language of compassion or lack of compassion and trust. But in fact, there's controlling issues. And that doesn't mean one of you is controlling. It means the other person experiences your requests and the other person doesn't. Two, everything gets personalized. Cut it differently becomes I can't do it right. Rather than, are you concerned that she could choke? Or come back with the pieces and say, I did the right measurement, Mrs. Basically, you can regain a lot of power and a lot of control with humor because humor brings perspective to this. Instead of, oh, now I've been people. Pierced with a dagger again. I can't even cut the food. And I'm thinking, this guy needs a lot of humor to diffuse this because he takes it so personal. And the third element is there's very few things that one of you can feel or do or say that doesn't elicit a reaction in the other. You're too close. Now, it's a terrible thing to say to people you're too close because we are supposedly all strive for a certain kind of closeness. This is too close. That closeness leads to personalizing rebellion, friction in order to create more distance. And so you each are constantly pushing your elbows to say to the other, give me space. Give me room. - I have a thing. I call it toxic coaching, that I do only with her, where it stops being about me helping. It starts being about why isn't she getting this? And when we got together, I felt what we could be together. I felt my potential. I felt her potential. And you're absolutely right that there has been something with her where I've been so impatient and so intolerant. But I was so scared last year that we were going to run out of money and that all these other things were going to happen. Part of the thing that kept me down last year was the feeling that not only was I unemployable, which I have a history related to that, but basically she's unemployable because of the ADHD, because of the challenges of being on time. It created enough fear in me that I didn't know if she would actually be able to earn money, although she has earned money in the past. And actually for a large portion of our relationship, the relationship has been the major breadwinner in her own way. That's fine. But, you know, she's been saying she wanted to be an artist for 10 years. And then now it's like in the more impatient way, I'm like, OK, what are you doing? Just choose to do it. The word anxiety, which he uses frequently, is so important to decode. Because he sees himself filling the holes in the ship and he describes it as his being anxious at the same time as he says, I am responsible. I'm looking at all the fractures in our relationship. And she is dreaming about islands. She's clueless, which is part of the putting her down and experiencing himself as the one who does it all. When at the same time, she has been the primary provider and he has struggled with work. And so part of what he wants is He wants her to be productive, accomplishing, confident, to compensate for what he feels he doesn't have inside of him. I mean, it's a very interesting thing that he coaches her when she's the one who's actually been doing quite well. She may be in transition. She has questions about if she wants to be an artist as a career or if she wants to be artistic. But fundamentally, she's done quite well. And that is covered up all the time. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. Like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual, and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way. Look, she's right there. She's three minutes away. Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. Right now, when you buy more carpet at the Home Depot, you save more. 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Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on OLLI.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I feel. I feel pretty scared about my own inability to do what I want to do. And my partner is sort of like naggingly in the background going, well, you said you wanted to go in this direction. And you're not. What are you doing? And when I became a mother, I felt that magical flow of, oh, this feels really good. Like I'm challenged in a really good way. All the time, every day. And I'm not feeling that about my illustration or art. And so I think it's feeling stagnant. And I don't quite know how to get to the next place with it. And I am really afraid of disappointing my partner and disappointing the narrative that I'm going to become this successful illustrator. There is your pursuit of art. There is your pursuit of art as an identity. There is your using your talents as an artist to have a career, which may not be the same. And then there is what do you both need in order to provide for your family and for your life? And do you have an understanding that this is a joint endeavor? That you expect both of you to be financially providing? And if you do that, then your questions about your art, you can do as much thinking about that as you want. It's yours. You can basically say to him, we agree that I need to provide this amount of money. And that's what I do. And how I do it is my business. At this moment, everything is constantly bleeding into each other. Child, family, mother, artist, illustrator. It's all flowing as if it's a delta, you know? And therefore, he needs you to be the successful artist so that he doesn't have to feel that he's the sole provider. I'm trying to do a little storage arrangement. Because you talk about one thing, you talk about six things. Yeah. And the challenge is, you know, I talked about I'm a systems person. And I found it very helpful. And that hasn't really worked for her or with her. What happens, though, is that you're so invested. It's like a parent who wants their kid to do their homework more than the kid should want themselves. Or play the piano or go to the baseball or whatever. You can't want more for the other person than the other person wants for themselves. If you want it so much more than them, then something happens inside of them where their preoccupation is less about the issue itself and more about how to get you out of the system. Yeah. And I appreciate that. I think the question is the how. How are we steering the boat together? Yeah. That's what I want to know. I don't know how. Let's go very concrete and basically practice. Practice other vocabularies than the primary one that you both are in. And that is fine, by the way. It's just that it's too dominant. There's kind of ongoing processing. Can I bring up the example? Sure. The example I really wanted to give, which happened recently, is I wanted to take our child to the pool. And we also had a dinner to go to right afterwards. And it's about an hour. And it's about an hour before we have to leave. And he says, that's not enough time. That's too rushed. This is what you always do. What if something goes wrong and we can't quite make everything on time? He's often telling me I don't really think through how long does it take to get ready for something? How long does it take to prepare for the next thing? The moment he starts talking about that, my brain is going, I can't concentrate on what you're saying. I need to get ready. I need to get our child ready. We need to get out the door. We're going to make this happen. I want to make my dreams come true. Everything's going to happen and it's going to be great. And he says to me, hey, you're not acknowledging that I'm here having a little bit of a freak out. I need you to pause, take some time to acknowledge that I just said this is really too much for me. I need you to understand that. I need you to honor that and say, I hear you. I really get it. And basically have some compassion for him in that moment. This has happened millions of times. And I sit there and I kind of freeze up and I'm like, how do I get this all done? And now he's upset and now it's my fault and I've only got 20 more minutes and I just want to make him happy and feel better. So I'll just say, I hear you. Okay, okay, it's fine. I won't be late. And that really, really triggers him because he'll say, I don't trust that you actually care about me right now. It feels like you don't care that I'm overwhelmed and you don't care that this is having an impact on me. So this is a perfect moment where they illustrate how it doesn't matter the situation. The form is going to be the same. When she says, can you cut small pieces? He personally, he personalizes it as if he can't cut the food for his child. When she says, let's go to the pool, he says to her, you are a klutz with time. You can't schedule. You have no sense of chronology. And instantly they have both taken an issue and made it something to blame the other person with and to diminish the other person with. And that's for me, the moment when she said, it doesn't matter. This happens all the time. It's always the same. This is the moment when they are describing, you know, to me, the always the same. Did you go to the pool? Uh-huh. And did you go to the dinner? Uh-huh. And did it work out? Yes. The thing that jumped at me when you told this beautiful example, because it's very rich. This could be a few hours just on that, you know. First one is, I want to go to the pool. And he says, but you will never plan. You are obviously late. So you start with an activity and it becomes a rant about your personality. There is no longer a discussion about timeliness or ability to put two activities. It's not about the subject anymore. It instantly goes to the person. And then once it becomes about the person, The sad piece is that she tunes you out. She recruits you, and she tunes you out. And that's confusing, because she brings you in, you play your part, you do the reasonable person, and then she basically tells you, you're a bore. She tells me that who I am and what I am doesn't matter, and that's back to my past. Okay, let's go there. So there you go. Go ahead. I was raised in a house where I was provided for materially but lived in fear, particularly of my stepfather and of the day that the verbal harassment and yelling would turn violent. It didn't, at least not physically. But the story I always tell is that I had fashioned some weapons that I kept under my bed, and I had planned out in my head how I was going to stop him if I needed to stop him. That never happened. But you kept yourself small. I was scared all the time, constantly. And then my mother, who I am not in communication with, I was provided for materially, but it was like there's no emotion to it. It was a me being an emotional, sensitive, scared child. I was just met with this constant questioning of who I was and what I was about and whether it was okay. And it was actually. My mother, who chose to break off contact with me after an incident and extremely unreasonably. So to me, her not taking literally 30 seconds to tune in, say, I hear that's true for you, and I care. What can we do and or is it still okay if we move forward? Now I see you shake your head. So that means you know that? Yes, that if you actually took a moment, yes, that if you took a moment to acknowledge him, that would dissipate. Oh, yeah. Okay. I've had a couple of therapists say, you know exactly what he needs. So if I can stop and take a moment and really drop in, like, hey, I notice you're feeling alone right now. I'm really sensing that you're feeling anxiety or fear. And how can I support you? I've had many people just say, like, it's so clear what he needs. Right. And? And I just have this tendency to want to say, it's not my responsibility. I don't want to have to do that. Like, I told him there's an hour before we have to go. Let's get ready and do it. Why does he need so much support right now? And that I feel terrible about that. And I also. I feel terrible about that. I also feel somewhat justified because it comes up almost every time we have to go anywhere. Actually, it's gotten a lot better. But it used to be that he, like, viscerally didn't want to go most places. So he would actually get really upset. And he would come to me and say, I actually feel so anxious. And I'm so uncomfortable. And I don't know if I can go. And I would say, we have 20 minutes to get ready. I hear your social anxiety or whatever is coming up. I have to get ready. I can't be there for you in this moment. Have you ever tried the other direction? Actually stopping? No. Instead of, I can't help you. We've got 20 minutes. I've got my own stuff to deal with. The other direction would be, you'll be fine. You often have a little freak out just before. But we have a beautiful community. That's where you're going. You say, I don't want to be in the deficiency. I don't want to have to take care of something that's not my responsibility. Nobody says it's your responsibility. It's just a nice thing to do. So you don't want to parent him in that moment. You have a kid. You don't want another kid. Get it? But you can reassure somebody very quickly and just say, shall we put a good piece of music? What's a song that can accompany us? Not talk about it necessarily. Put a good piece of music. Say just something about how much fun it was when you went there a week before. And then name this anxiety. Give that anxiety a name. And just say, you know, Mary came for a visit again. We should tell Mary that she's not invited tonight or something. Whatever the name you want to give to. But this anxiety needs to become named and externalized. Rather than constantly seen as invading your entire being. And then you just say, oh, Mary, come on. What are you doing? But now you're talking to Mary rather than to him. There's a ton of different ways to respond that are, A, more fun. B, more productive. And kinder. And probably more effective. You know, a kiss would actually really help me in this moment. A hug, a smile. But it's about diffusing. It's not about not taking these things seriously. But it's also about not letting them run the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm feeling some dance-off energy. Yeah. I think we're just getting into it. It's like, nope, it's time for a dance-off. Yes. Let's do it. But the point is to cut it short because you spend too much time in there. And then you become more defiant and more rebellious to him. Because every situation becomes a 10. Very quickly. You first need to change the intensity, the predictability, the rigidity, and the reactivity. And then we can go to the content. One of the issues of the content is we have a kid. We think about financial stability differently from before. The goal is not that your identity needs to be connected to your career, needs to be connected to your. And if he's not a good advisor, you find someone else. That's fine. It's not a personal rejection. I would like that air. I would like to not have to take on that piece. I want to trust her that she can do this. No, you don't have to trust her. Okay. No, you don't. You may. But you don't have to. You may think that you don't really know if she will one day pull through on this and throw herself into it. I don't need to trust that she's going to make an art career. It's actually a little more fundamental. I've seen her work patterns, and they're not all great. With late invoices and all of that, and it drives me bonkers. And could you help her in that area to set up? I tried. Okay, don't do it. Then she'll hire someone. She'll hire a bookkeeper for two hours a week. Yeah. But what I'm hearing. One of the things that you say as well is you get good advice, you go to therapy, you have other people telling you what would help, and then you say, why should I? You do solicit and dismiss. Like you do with him, you probably do with the therapists too. You may want to ask yourself, how do I step out of that? I ask for help, and then I defy the help. Yeah, I mean, I've had multiple therapists where I said, I really want help with ADHD. I want help with specific things in my relationship. And I ask them for help, and then I decide not to work with them anymore. But I just kept coming up against, I'm the only one who has the answers. They're not giving me enough information. It's not helping me. Yeah. So have you had this running text today as well? No, actually. I really appreciate the humor idea. And this idea of enmeshment is huge. I mean, we joked that we were spending every day with each other. We never were apart for years. We lived together in a really small space, often in tents, because we were farming together. And so we would live in these tiny places with each other and rarely do anything apart. And that was something we liked. But I think at a certain point in our relationship, we realized this is actually really unhealthy. One of the most important tasks in every relationship is how we straddle autonomy and togetherness. This is what you're going to have. This is what you're going to have with your child, too. You're good at how to create togetherness. You are new and gradually learning to create separateness. Independence, individuality, freedom, air, space, differentiation, as we would call it. So I have a question. What's a good piece of music? that you like that when you start to feel like you're getting all entangled you would say time for i can think of like five or six songs that would make me happy i'm starting to think of ones that would also make her happy too what would make you happy no it's not happy disentangle us stop us in our tracks yeah shift the mood if you shift the mood then you can shift the dynamic yeah and whoever initiates the disentanglement needs to be met by the other who says okay because you have to see this as a maneuver to help the relationship it stops us from going down that rabbit hole yeah and no talking because in those moments talking is not helpful yeah we used to have moments where we would light a candle turn off all the lights play music it would often not be when it was super heightened but more when it felt like he was in need of a break like let's take a pause and we're about to cook dinner we're about to get into the next thing let's nice beautiful and probably more helpful than we should have a monday meeting to discuss the week yeah the meetings was just more about slowing down i know the planning and the this and what are we doing this and oh this and it's to the point where it's like i just want to say good morning to her and have a kiss and like try that instead of literally her coming down and saying like hey do you know where so-and-so is or i have to do this thing you need slowing down okay but it's slowing down and it's reintroducing some ritual you have rituals with your daughter and you have routines for yourself rituals are routines that are imbued with creativity and intention you probably have rituals if you go to dinner with other people and you do your holidays but you don't have enough rituals that create an enshrinement around the two of you i think that's so helpful because the alternative is this feeling of like things are always falling forward for me and it's like can we pull back and like in the morning kiss the morning before we say anything else you know but if she's not giving you the kiss give the lead with a little more spice so that it doesn't come from that place of i feel neglected i feel unseen i am upset oh and now she's not giving me the kiss i'm upset i'm upset i'm upset i'm upset i'm upset she has to decide if she wants to get into a caretaking session and all of that use your spunk how would that be can you come down a second in the way that he thinks is too fast too busy too distracting give him the lines oh like this is a scene so we may just as well we're pre-acting now uh so i walk downstairs into into him and our daughter having breakfast and i say oh you know i forgot that i told this person we were gonna get there at 3 p.m and he says can we just stop can we just connect and say good morning and be present with each other and then i'm already stressed out by that right all right but i totally hear what you're saying so instead of me saying the thing that she said what's coming to me now is i would turn to our child and i'd be like hey baby i'm gonna kiss you because mama doesn't want to kiss and like and it's a little shaming but it would be very playful i'm not trying to shame her we'll see how it lands but you know just bringing a little joy bringing a little connection and then she'd get the message i think and kind of snapping her out of her thing but without taking it personal yeah yeah totally the essential word is playful yeah i have a feeling that some of the trust that you're talking about is more likely to come back with playfulness than with rules yeah and for that there needs to be a little bit more space the space is in order to come closer but differently i only have one session with this couple so i'm not going to be able to transform the whole culture of the relationship but i do introduce the notion of playfulness because when you play you can say a lot of things without taking them too seriously when you play you have the license to be slightly aggressive or hostile but it's for fun when you play it's when risk taking is fun and i'm trying to first create a different mood between them because they take it very literal because the enmeshment is such where everyone is experiencing the reality of the other as if it was their own it's that kind of loss of boundary and so playfulness actually introduces a boundary but the boundary is in order to create a more healthy space where people can actually connect where should we begin with esther perel is produced by magnificent noise we're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with new york magazine and the cut our production staff includes eric newsom destry sibley sabrina farhi kristin muller and julian original music and additional production by paul schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin are esther perel and jesse baker we'd also like to thank courtney hamilton mary alice miller and jack saul ball is here and that means 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