Is Egg Freezing Worth $20,000? ft. NY's Top Fertility Dr.

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Okay, Sippers. Welcome back to FinancialTea, the podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals and, of course, financial pop culture. And as a single 34-year-old woman, one of the questions that I get asked most is not, can I set you up with my Jewish friend, which would be a great question to get asked a lot. But instead, it's about my egg freezing journey, which is fine. It's my cross to bear. I posted about it, and I am passionate about it. I've done it twice, and I know as women, this is a complicated subject. It's a complicated one for me too. We all know that we should freeze our eggs, but it's sort of impossible to know when the right time is or like how we're going to afford it or what the process is actually like. So I wanted to share my story, knowing that yours, of course, is going to be different. But if there's one thing that I really did learn during this process, it's how important support and information is. And then I also want to walk you through all of the ways financially to egg freeze through your employer, through grants, through different kinds of clinics, through going abroad. We're going to break it all down. So consider this your master class and how to actually fund egg freezing because this is an important thing to think about. Like, I write about this a lot in future, rich person, my book, the new rules of building wealth, but our generations, millennials and Gen Z are hitting milestones way out of order. It used to be like, you know, get married, have kids, the whole thing, but now it could be career and then have a kid and then maybe we get married. And it's like, you know, there's no rhyme or reason to how we do things now. We've so much more freedom, which is great, but it's also hard because there's no playbook. And we're in the Wild West, just trying to find answers like, okay, I'm 34. I definitely want to be a mom, but that is not my focus right now. So how can I use money to buy myself more time? Does anyone else relate to that? And that is not a question that like my mom had to answer. It's not a question that most of our mothers had to answer except like, maybe my friend Abigail because she was the first IVF baby LL shot out Abigail. But the whole point is that we're in this choose your own adventure model now. And money is what gives us the freedom as women to make these choices. And that's why I'm so passionate about empowering you with financial literacy because it really just opens up what you can do with your life and gives you the paintbrush to decide what you want to make of it. I also want to be real that while egg freezing fits into that plan, it's something that I also feel really strange about. And I do find to be a bit of a pink tax on women were like, it's a very fear driven. Why we do this? There's no guarantee that it's going to work. I am not an evangelist for it, despite having done it twice. Like I'm grateful for having the financial means to have given myself this insurance. But there is really no guarantee that the eggs I have frozen are going to work out. And it's so much mental strain and time and your body blows up, which is a mind fuck. But I guess for me, I always felt it was better to roll the dice than not to do it at all. So today is not about if it's right or wrong to freeze your eggs. I see both sides of why people would or wouldn't. But I wanted to just candidly share my own experience and sort of break down what the financial figures look like. Give you options for how to afford it so that you can just make a more informed decision for yourself. And then later on in the episode, we're going to talk to Dr. Moomjee, who is the top fertility expert in New York. She did my second egg freeze and I'm going to ask her a few of your questions and she has a really interesting expert perspective and gives it to us straight. But first, let's get into the MDJ market report. What's up, Sippers? Welcome back to the MDJ market report where I give you the top money stories of the week. And today is all about Bieber Chela because there's a lot happening with Justin's performances at Coachella that have to do with the economy and finances. And you guys know I love pop culture and I love money. So this is like my dream market report. Let's jump in. So first of all, Justin was reportedly paid a record breaking $10 million for the festival. But what's cool is he negotiated the deal directly with the promoter. So he could bypass the 10 to 15% agency fees. So it's a $10 million paycheck. That means that he has an extra $1.5 million in his pocket just because he cut out all the middlemen, which to me is Swag. And speaking of Swag, Justin is majority performing songs from Swag and Swag to Coachella. And this is sort of the Taylors version of fact because no, he's not re-uploading his old hits, but Justin is using the world's biggest stage to signal to his fans that like the Swag era is the only one that he actually backs. And that's because it's the only one that he's actually getting paid for. Like every stream generated by Coachella for Swag is going to go directly to his bottom line, whereas a performance that peaches or sorry or baby, which is such a good song, would benefit HSC capital, which is the firm that bought his $290 song catalog for $200 million in 2022. So he sold his masters and now he's basically starving his old catalog that he doesn't own and feeding only his new assets, which are his two new albums Swag and Swag 2. Like if he can do a major festival with his own IP, it will help him regain so much leverage over his career and also make him not beholden to like past contacts, which, you know, I love to see from a child star, like, you know, in a perfect world, this would be happening for Britney too. We just love to see someone who sort of had like nefarious business management gets back on top. So we're rooting for you, Justin. But speaking of profiting from Justin's music, Bill Ackman, that freak, Billy and their hedge fund manager, who told, who gave everyone dating advice and said that if you want to meet a girl, just go up to her and say, may I meet you? Okay. Weird. Just been $55 billion for UMG, which is the label that still holds Bieber's masters. And Bill's idea is that despite fears of AI, major labels still have really good fundamentals so like this could be a positive investment. And I think people think that AI generated music is this huge threat. Bill thinks in a sea of AI content, proven iconic human brands like Bieber's catalog and Swift's catalog and Drake are actually going to become more valuable because they're authentic and irreplaceable. So there's sort of this irony because Justin is trying to pivot from the music that UMG controls to maximize his profits. But Ackman is bidding billions because he thinks Justin is like this blue chip stock. I feel like this really sort of should help us frame how we think about AI as this threat in the workplace because you have to realize that if you are able to do something that no one else can do, you're still going to be super valuable. Like that's why you see so many articles about like, oh, is college worth it still with AI? What should people study? And it is all about the humanities because if you're able to put out things into the world that could never be computer generated, then you're always going to have worth. But also learn how to use AI and that's really how you protect yourself from it. Yeah. And if you are, you know, a sponsor of Coachella, this is coming out before weekend too. I just want you to know I'm mobile. I will go. So yeah, feel free to reach out. That being said, I don't actually know if I'm allowed to go to Coachella legally. I feel like I am in a full conservorship to sort of bring it back to Brittany because my book Future Rich Person is coming out May 12th and like I put so much of myself into this book and so actually like getting it out in the world in the proper way is like this huge ordeal but also really exciting. And I will say that if you haven't ordered it yet pre-ordered it, you should do that because you're going to want the book. Like it's going to take over the culture. If you like listening to me, you're going to love my book about money. It's going to teach you everything that you never knew. But also when you pre-order, you got like $700 worth of freebies. And so much of this podcast is helping you to stay rich and get rich. And like what better than a finance book that's going to give you all the information that you need to grow wealth in this new age that also comes with so many freebies, like you're doubling down. Bill Ackler. who? You're the belly there. Okay, now let's get into my episode about egg-freezing. Yeah, we're going there. Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. When you put your body in the hands of a surgeon, you assume your doctor will do you no harm. I'm looking at the surgery board for tomorrow. These people are ****. Cricket doctors have launched their most ambitious fraud yet worth over one billion dollars. One doctor says my kickback was 25,000 and the other doctors go and we only got 12,000. From Sony Music Entertainment and Western Sound, this is Dr. Billions coming October 1st to the binge. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Basically, I always knew that I should freeze my eggs because life was not trending towards like a 27-year-old marriage. Like when I was 27, I was, you know, **** guys on a roof from Tinder and like doing comedy. Like, I don't know. I was was not, I was not focused. I was not out there trying to get the ring. And my sister is really career-oriented too. She definitely needed to freeze her eggs because she works all the time. She works weekends. She did it when she was 30 and I was implanted in my mind. Okay, this is something that I should definitely do as someone who's also really career focused and, you know, doesn't have as much going on in terms of, you know, natural family planning right now. So I don't know. I just wanted options. I wanted to diversify my portfolio of ways to motherhood. And I also found a lot of inspiration in my favorite celebrity. So I read an article where Mindy Caling said that she wished that every 19-year-old girl would come home from college and that the gift that their parents would give them instead of like jewelry or vacation would be egg freezing. And then this was really the kicker. Jennifer Aniston said that she would have given anything for someone to have told her to freeze her eggs at a younger age. And I was like, my girl, Jen, like, okay, fine, you're telling me, and I'm listening. I'm going to do it. So I went for that initial consultation without telling anyone at one of those like cool designer fertility clinics, you know, that are like back by private equity. And they have fun snacks in the waiting room and they offer you flavored sellers. And it was there that I had my first ultrasound. And I learned more about my reproductive health. You guys and I never cared to know because it turns out that you have two ovaries. Okay, plural. Let's call them Mary Kate and Ashley. And for me, Mary Kate was thriving. Great news. She was killing it. But Ashley, she was making fewer acts. Yeah. I was still within the normal range, but it was the first of many times during this experience that I felt scared and confused about my own body. And honestly, just deeply empathetic also towards other women. And so when I left, I did what any adventurous woman would do. And I called my mother, who was excited and supportive. I will give her that love you, Patti. But she also said like, Hey, you are a financial pop star. Would you bank somewhere that was not FDIC insured? Certainly not. So why are you going to go to a doctor that is not back by a hospital? So she had a point like while this while this private equity, back clinic with like a cool Instagram was white glove with like a great reputation. All these people online were going there, going old school was the best call for me. I wanted to go to a clinic that was backed by a hospital. So I think that what was really confusing to me. And if you haven't done egg freezing before, something to think about is like, I definitely went into it thinking that the whole process was a sure thing. Like I genuinely believed the hardest part was just like finding time in the calendar to get myself to do it and like freaking doing it. But then I realized that actually the hardest part is having a successful retrieval, like getting healthy eggs in good numbers at the same size. That's tough. Like every single day, they're giving me a different egg count, a different retrieval date. And like here's the thing that no one really tells you going in is like your doctor does have a target number for you. So like my general physician told me that my goal was should be to have at least 20 eggs being before I turned 35. And so I did this all at 30 thinking that I was like, okay, home free at 12 eggs. Great. I'm going to have insurance for a kid. I can have kids from this. But then my physician was like, no girl, you actually need like eight more to feel safe. That is your benchmark. That will give you the best statistical shot at successful pregnancy down the road. And obviously I didn't hit that number after my first retrieval. I just realized like, okay, the whole reason I did this was to buy myself options. And like coming up short and calling it done just felt like almost giving money on the table, which as you know, it's not really my vibe. So even though I really didn't want to, I went back when I was 34 this January. I'm still 34. And I want to be honest with you. Like it was, I guess it was easier the second time because I knew what to expect. Like I wasn't scared of the needles as much. But a, I absolutely fucked up my medication the second time, which was my battle. We can talk about that. But it all worked out. And two, it was not easier. Like I, I definitely gained more weight this time. I felt like it was harder to come off of the hormones this time. Like I had, they had like a longer afterlife than what I remembered. But I came out the other side with my number. God was listening. We hit 20. Hallelujah. And then I went immediately the next day to the Grammys, which was crazy because I was so, so bloated. And I just wore like a tent to the award show and got the darkest spray tan that I could and had the best hair make up people in LA put about 40 pounds of like blush and hairspray and fake hair in me and called it a night. And I'm even in the daily meal. So all as well that ends well. But even with 20 eggs, I don't have certainty. Like that's what's so crazy about this is like, there's never certainty. There will never be certainty until I have children. But now let's get into the finances because I have like every option available to you of how to afford egg freezing, even if it feels really out of reach because obviously 10 to 20 thousand dollars of cycles a lot. Oh, and I want to be financially transparent with you guys. The first egg freezing cycle was 15K. The second egg freezing cycle was 17K. The first egg freezing cycle, my family helped me with they want grandkids, the second egg freezing cycle. I paid for myself. So that is my truth. 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I've been stacking that with their best selling clinically studied true collagen, which is a hero product for positive aging, active lifestyles and just like that beauty from within. Go to ancient and brave.com/planet and use CoT for $10 off any purchase. I have structured this into sort of like a three lane highway. There is our corporate cheat code. There is the smart financing play and then there is the self-funded strategy. And I also have a couple of bonus routes if none of those fit. Lane one, let's talk about the corporate cheat code because if you have employer sponsored health benefits, this is the first place to look. And it honestly might be the only place you need to look like a lot of companies now use third party fertility benefit platforms to offer. But I can only describe as like a fertility lifeline. And so the big names that you want to look for are carrot, maven, kind body. If your company partners with any of those, like you could really be sitting on some serious coverage that you didn't even know about. So go ask your HR and be really specific. Don't ask if your health plan covers fertility treatments. Ask if it covers elective or social egg freezing. Those are the magic words because some employers might offer a lifetime dollar cap, like $20,000 while others offer like a set number of cycles. Either way, they could potentially cover your entire cost. And so we've got to find out what the T is. And if you work at Google, I'm so jealous because they give you amazing fertility benefits. And also my friend who works at a consulting agency throws her eggs three times and each time it only costs her $200 out of pocket. So you can really milk those employment benefits, baby. Okay, now let's talk about Lane two, which I feel like people don't talk about enough specialized fertility financing. So, you know, obviously, if you put this on a standard credit card, hard pass because the interest rates are going to eat you alive. Like you don't want to pay a 24% APR on your agritrival, but there are lenders who are built specifically for fertility, like there's this one called future family, which offers monthly payment plans around $199 a month and they will bundle in your medications and even a fertility coach. Gaia is also a newer player in this field where you pay an upfront fee and they protect you from the cost of multiple cycles. There's also ARC fertility, which does multi cycle bundles that like really bring down the per cycle cost significantly. And these are not perfect for everyone, but I do want to shout them out because they exist to make things more accessible and that is definitely worth knowing you can also always ask your fertility doctor if they will do a payment plan with you, you know, zero interest payment plan over a set amount of time that's also a really good option. I will also say there's a lot of ways to get cheaper medications now to like Costco is now doing fertility medication and it's a really good deal. So you just have to know where to look, but lane three is the self funded strategy, which is what I did because I my own boss and unfortunately Mrs Dow Jones does not offer fertility benefits yet, which sucks I hate my boss. But if you are paying out of pocket, the tax code is really your friend. So two things to know, first of all, HSAs and FSAs those health spending accounts. If you have a health savings account or a flexible spending account, you can use those pre tax dollars to pay for a significant portion of your egg freezing costs. So depending on your tax bracket, that could potentially be like a 20 to 30% discount, which definitely is real money. If your total reimburse medical expenses exceed 7.5% of your adjusted gross income in a year, you can deduct them and egg freezing almost always clears that bar. So definitely talk to your accountant before your cycle, not after and see if there's some sort of medical tax deduction that you can work out. Then there's like a few bonus roots just throw out there, like there's strategic clinic shopping, like CNY fertility is known as the most affordable option in the US. Their cycles are between three to five K plus men's compared to the national average. So that's a huge difference. And they also offer in house financing with 0% interest for a set period, which rocks. And then there's also grants that you can apply for. Yes, which is actual free money. Like the baby quest foundation awards grants twice a year based on financial need. There's also nest egg foundation, which serves New York and Connecticut residences with up to $20,000. And also the key foundation, which offers family building grants specifically for diverse applicants. So these are very competitive, but they are real and applying will cost you nothing but time and you might get a lot out of it. Now let's talk to my fertility doctor, Dr. Moongi, who unfortunately did not give me a grant or let me do any fertility financing, but she is an expert. She's been a fertility doctor for over 20 years and really is the top of her game. And she works with NYU, which is responsible for 1% of all IVF babies in the world. So she really knows what she's talking about. And I asked her your questions and she's a great resource. So let's jump in there. Hello, I'm Simon Mayo and I'm Mark Kermod. What a great episode we have for you lined up. Mark, what are you doing on the latest take? It's a pack show. We have reviews of Heart of the Beast, Brad Pitt and a dog, her private hell, the new film from Nick Winding Reffen, a Bournemon and the Devil, a documentary about the worst film ever made and sense and sensibility with our super special guest, gorgeous George McKay. Don't miss a single second of the latest take. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How To Fail Here. My next guest is the pioneering British fashion designer renowned for his signature classic with a twist aesthetic. So Paul Smith, they say, oh, Paul's job. Yes. Head of happiness. That's my job. I do close as well. Listen to How To Fail, whatever you get your podcasts. What's the most that anyone's ever spent on retrievals with you? You know, when it comes to retrievals, I always say, you know, let's analyze the retrieval you just did and let's analyze your family plan and see what you actually need. I'm not and it's exhausting and it's expensive and it's invasive and it's, you know, there's side effects. So people don't tend to do like retrieval after retrieval, but, you know, maybe in the course of the year, they might do too if they feel like they need, you know, more eggs or if the relationship breaks up, they come back. You ever like what is the like the who's like your biggest customer that you've ever had, like over the years, like was there one person who stands out where you're like, damn, like they did everything, like a million times. The people who I'm doing a lot of IVF often have like a co factor. So there's a genetic problem in the family. So half the embryos that they make they can't use. You know, something where there's a very severe male factor and half the external for lies. So those people end up doing a lot of IVF, but it's rare in this day and age that I would have anybody in my practice who did more than five cycles and I've had people have like entire families on two cycles. Wow. And so how much would it like what's like the high end of how much that would cost and what's like the average amount that someone really spends with you. Same cost in general, you know, cycles are going to run somewhere between like 15,000, you know, for the month. So you're talking about all the ultrasounds, the blood, the embryology, the anesthesia, you know, I'm not talking about like me per se, but I'm talking about the whole team. The wild card is also arm is say so injectable medications historically were another 5 to 8,000 for an IVF cycle. Now interestingly, like two months ago, there was a shake up and the pharmaceutical companies reduced their prices. And now there costs go to yeah, and I don't know what the reason was I honestly called a shoe happened about 15 years ago. So I don't know how it happened finally, but it did happen. So that helped a lot. I feel like there's a lot of girls listening were probably like in their 20s and 30s haven't frozen eggs yet and are trying to decide if it's worth it. I think a big question, like I think something that confused people was why I did it twice because obviously that's double the amount of money, like I've now spent like 35k probably all in on egg freezing in my life, which is a huge investment like that in the stock market would obviously be worth millions and, you know, by the time I retired. But I guess like what is the hallmark of retrieval where like what's the amount where you're like, okay, you got a good number of eggs, you're safe and are there factors that this success depends on like people always say acupuncture. Should we stop drinking like are there things that we can do to help make our investment in egg freezing more fruitful. Great question. So when the first comes to the decision of whether or not to freeze eggs, I think people should be at least availing themselves to some sort of fertility consult like between the ages of 28 and 32, no matter what in a relationship single whatever. The idea is a console like understand what's your history are there risk factors for any fertility, you know, doctors there what could you evaluate and for most people like at least having two tests one is a public ultrasound and the other is a blood test called the AMH, which is a hormones secreted by immature egg cells. So this is an idea of the ovarian reserve is it comparable to what your age related group has, you know, in lab data or is it above or is it below. And so when you put those things together and then. A conversation like how many children do you think you may want one might even one might you get started a lot of people think I'll stop the pill today and I'll hopefully be pregnant in two months and it's like if you've been on the pill 10 years it could take you six months to get your period back. So this is where the fertility console comes at like just understand your own factors and you know how can you position yourself for better fertility, you know, going forward and whether your plans are this year or three years from now. Okay, and then what is like a good number of eggs during a retrieval where you would only have to do it once and what's like the threshold to having to have to do it multiple times and like. A goal number of eggs that we should try and have banked by a certain age so another great question so it's a combination of what is your age now and how many eggs did you bag. And so we actually. And then why you have collated the data that we have because we've been doing egg freezing pretty much the longest and the problem with eggs freezing is you have to wait for people to actually come back and fall. A transfer and then a baby to get the data I know I've never felt worse about be like I think like my mother makes me feel bad about being single but the science of how shitty it is to have an egg versus an embryo will really get you swiping on hinge like if there was ever. if I'd ever had any sort of incentive to find a boyfriend, find a husband, it was that, it was that. But according to our most current date, if you're and I was just looking at the chart this week, if you're, you know, 31 and you have 20 eggs frozen and seems that you have like an 80-ish percent chance of an ongoing pregnancy from that group of eggs. Getting back to what you can do to preserve because you asked that a little bit ago. Yeah, what should we do? Like, should we be on prenatals? Should we be like avoiding the sauna? Is it okay that I love martinis? Well, we'll start with the most important thing is avoid all types of smoke and vaping. Like it is really shockingly a negative factor for ovaries. And people don't know that. And yeah, kids in my school in college who smoked definitely have a lower response at this in this process. No. Okay, I don't vape, I don't vape. To last longer, I can't stress it enough. Okay. We don't have data on sauna and eggs, but we have data on sauna and sperm and they don't do well. And so I always think whatever happens to sperm is probably happening to the eggs. So I generally recommend not to do sauna until your family is done. It's so crazy because then they're like, no, you have to do the sauna because it gets rid of the cancer and the microplastics in your blood. And it's like, we can't win. We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. Mercury levels are not good for eggs. So if someone loves sushi and needs it all the time, they should check a mercury level. Shoot. Okay, so all the things that I love, a European cigarette spicy tuna roll and the sauna, they all got to go. I mean, as far as alcohol, there was one one good study that said that IDF patients who kept to know more than four drinks a week had better embryos than those who drank more than four cars a week. But you know, it was in the two months before IDF. My other question is like, this is a solution, obviously for infertility, but it's also a solution for single girlies who have not met their partner yet and are like, SOS, I do not want to settle, but I do want to be a mom one day. So let me do this. And like, you know, that's a lot of money for a single girlie to spend. So like, how do you support people financially in your practice who maybe can't afford to do this outright? Like, are there payment plans available? Patients who finish their cycle will give us their leftover medications that we'll specifically look for people who don't have any coverage whatsoever and, you know, give them the donated medications. Also, I wanted to just ask like, are there any big myths that come up a lot about fertility doctorhood that you would like to debug here or about the process? I'm always surprised how people think that they can be on the long-term pill or long-term contraceptive or IUD for five, six, seven, eight years and stop it in one month and most likely be pardoned in the next two to three months. The, you know, long-term contraception is very suppressing to the ovaries or the uterus or bulge and you need to really include in your plan by six months minimum of like getting contraception out of your system and getting your cycle back. And people are just like depressed when, you know, there's three months lost the pill and they haven't even ovulated yet. And, you know, to me, that's like a large, very significant missing information in this culture. Like, be patient with your body. Well, be aware that you can't turn contraception on and off in a day. Yeah, it's not like you take it out. It's not like a floodgate is then open, like you have to rebalance. You have to get your cycle back. The contraception deliberately suppresses your cycle, suppresses the hormone, it suppresses the uterine lining, it suppresses the ovary's ability to actually ovulate. And that takes time to get that and people don't factor that in. You know, their last, you know, reproductive conversation was like in sixth grade and they you have no, no, we're really not tall. It's like finance or never taught about it. One, you know, exposure to sperm will yield one pregnancy. And like maybe when you're 14, not when you're 30 or 34 or 38 or 40, like, absolutely not. So people don't have a realistic understanding of transitioning from long term contraception to trying to conceive. That's where I think again, a fertility consult is really important. Like get yourself into a proper time frame. But if you're on the pill or you have an IUD or something and you want to freeze your eggs, like how long an advance should you go off? I like people off the pill at least two months before I'd freeze their eggs. It is just a better cycle. And I'll even take a look with ultrasound or two months and say like are your ovaries waking up or should we wait another month? When it comes to the IUDs, similarly, like it should be at it, you know, two to three miles before you start trying to conceive. But if you're trying to freeze your eggs, interestingly, the IUD does not impact the overall responsiveness. So that's a good example for us. I was just pop that thing out and then Bing Bing move. No, no, you can leave. You can leave it in. Yes. Wow. The IUD for an egg free cycle. But the pill is just too suppressing. So you want that off whenever possible for at least two months. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Moongyi. Talk to you soon. Thank you guys so much for listening. I want to just give you action items really, really fast before you close this episode. Please write these down. Step one, please just make sure that you schedule that fertility checkup. If this is something that you're curious about, just so you can understand where your baseline is. Number two, log into your benefits portal or email HR and ask specifically if your plan covers elective or social egg freezing. Remember, use those exact words. Three, if you have an HSA or an FSA, find out your current balance and whether egg freezing qualifies boiler alert usually does. Four, look up CNY fertility, future family and Gaia, just so you can get familiar with what's out there. Knowledge really is leverage. I also want to shout out that a lot of people freeze their eggs abroad and those cycles can be like three to five thousand dollars. So obviously a lot cheaper than the US median, but also a risk because you're farther away from home. You have to be there for a long time, which requires the financial burden of putting yourself up. You have to take off work if you can't work remotely, whereas like if you were in America, you could just go to work while you were doing all the injection. So there's like a lot to think about, but it's definitely something that I've heard from a lot of people that is a way to just get this done. They've done it overseas and it's really worked.