Is Diva Dead? | 96

I don't know if Ariana Grande is a diva. I don't know. I mean, pipes. Yes. Ponytails. So much hair. I'm sorry. Literally, what about what we've just said? Does she not check every single box? Who is she beefing with? Everyone's exes? Everyone married. Any wife. Anyone married. Any wife. Yeah. Wives across America, she's beefing with. From Higher Ground Audio, I'm Peyton Dix. And I'm Hunter Harris. And this is Let Me Say This. Hey, diva. Hey, diva. We ask the important questions here at Let Me Say This. Let Me Say This headquarters. Which is, is the diva dead? Is she dead and gone? Is the diva down? Diva, I'm going to say is a little bit haphazard. A little bit like diva flag flying at half past. Yeah, diva on life support. Diva. Diva. We need to get our divas up. I don't know. I think it's hard because we've had such a strong diva history before. We've had some of the greats. And we're here right now to unpack who's been great, who could be great. If they want to lock in. Who's on the bubble too? Who's on the cusp of being a diva? Yeah, the fringes of diva. Who's a little bit diva rising? Wait. I've always considered myself on the fringes of diva. Yeah. I think we're going to get into our favorite divas of all time. Our favorite diva men. Because there are many, actually. We need to wake that up. Or are they? I might be of the opinion that there's no such thing as a diva man. Okay, but. Okay, we're going to get into it. Because diva can be derogatory too. We're going to unpack it. Never to me. Never to me. I know. I know who reigns here. And it shows. And it shows. Ooh, she sat up straight. So we'll get into that. We'll unpack it all. Who is a diva? Who gets to be a diva? Who should be a diva? Who's not a diva? Who is not a diva? Many such cases. And we'll get into it all. So listen along. Okay, not to sound like Kim Kardashian. No one wants to work anymore. No one wants to get on their Zoom and be a real diva. Yeah. I'm telling you, a diva is an endangered species. Oh. The rhinos and the divas. Are rhinos back up? How are we doing? I actually don't. How are we doing on rhinos? I'm expecting you to know that. Someone let me know in the comments. I think it's a dark time. I was like thinking about, okay, my favorite divas of all time. Only one of them is in our generation. And. Oh. Yeah. Okay. And. And there's one who's like, yeah, on the cusp. Okay. I was going to say, though, earlier you were like, the recipe to be a diva. Let's talk about that. Like, what are the makings? Sugar, spice, everything nice. What are the makings of a diva? Well, first, you have to be able to sing. So a lot of people are disqualified off top. Okay, but wait. So you're saying divas can only be pop stars? I didn't say that. I said divas have to be vocalists. Okay. They don't have to be pop stars. They have to be able to sing. In the pop genre or in the. They have to be under a musical genre, though. Because I kind of feel like divas expansive to like. There are actresses who are divas. Oh. Yeah. No, no, no, no. I think divas are. I think true divas are singers. Okay. And there are people who are able to sing. So right off top, I mean, now Taylor Swift has been cut. Adele, low-key, has been cut. Who else has been cut? I mean, that's why I'm like, Madonna, I'm going to say she's cut. I wouldn't call her a vocalist. But she's such a diva, though. I know, but I think that she's. That one video clip of her being like, it's hot. Can I get. Can somebody crack the door? Do you know that one clip of her? You know what? I am thinking. I'm going to say Madonna's back in. Thank you. Bravely, Madonna's back in. Madonna's back in. Madonna said comments, thank you, Hunter, for putting me back in my place. I have to stand up for my Leo sister. Yeah, Madonna's back in. I forgot about her in that hotel room in that documentary. No, yeah. There's so many. Yeah, yeah. No, she's like. Madonna hot, diva. But I'm going to say Gaga. Gaga is a diva. Absolutely. One of our last living. You know what? Yeah. Kind of. I'll give it to her. Yeah. Who's the youngest diva? Our youngest. Our youngest diva, Miley Cyrus. Miley Cyrus is diva down. That video of her on the red carpet. iPhone. Oh, yes. iPhone. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I feel like she's one of the last ones who has star power and has reverted into being a level of secrecy to her. Well, you know how I feel about Miley. Miley Cyrus. She's every age at once. Absolutely. She is radically 19. Yeah. And yet, she's also about 64. Yeah, sure. And then she's also, you know, like 41. Yeah. And then she's also 32. Okay, more ages. Legally. And what else? Yeah. Okay. I do think you. A diva has to have talent. That is true. Yeah. But I also think a diva. It's a little bit more than that. I think a diva has to have an element of drag. Like, you have to have a certain kind of. Performance. Performance value to you. Yeah. You have to be at least a little bit tangential to queer culture to some degree. And I think that the top divas are the ones that have that. And I think there needs to be like. No, you know, a diva needs full hair. Full hair. You can't have flat hair. You got to have at least one, at least a clip-in in big hair. Oh, Phoebe Bridgers just got disqualified. Now that she was ever in the running. Imagine if I came into the room being like. I would do that, actually. I would be like, Phoebe Bridgers, diva. Lucy Dacus, next. Um, that's just a qualifier for me. I was like, oh, you have to have big hair and you have to have like some kind of drag element to you in some kind of way. Yeah. And I also think you have to be. You have to be like a seasoned performer. You have to be a good performer to be a diva. You can't just be like. Like Lana Del Rey? You ain't never going to be a diva. But. But. Have you seen her live? No. She don't move. She take two steps. I don't need to see her live. Nothing about Lana Del Rey and I needs to be seen live. We don't need to be in the same room together. No, like we. I can see her from a distance in a mall. Yeah. Like sipping on a big ass soda in a food court. And I love that about her. She's too human. Yeah, she's too human to be a diva. She's too human. Yeah. She's, uh. Yeah, no diva marries an alligator man. But. Hear me out. A diva does have to date one piece of shit man a little bit publicly. Think about it. All of our divas have been down a little bit for the wrong guy. Um. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, I can see that. I mean, that's just the experience of being a woman. I mean, well. I wouldn't call that even specific. Well, yeah. I was like, I don't deal with the struggle. But I was like, oh, there's a common thread here. Except for I'm now thinking about that one interview with Aretha Franklin and Wendy Williams. She was like, you're stupid, but not me. Because Wendy Williams was trying to be like, you know, the right guy might have you acting a little stupid, a little silly. And she was like, you think I'm gullible? You know what I'm talking about? No. It's very your culture. But I love it. But it sounds great to me. It's very us talking. You think I'm gullible? No, you act stupid. It's so good. Okay, let's. Let's do a diva list. Give me your top. It's time. Top five divas. Top five. Oh, I prepared for more than five. Oh. Oh, okay. So you did the homework. That's crazy. It's like scribbled on my paper. What, seven? Top six? Okay, I could do. I could do seven. Okay. Top divas of all time. Yeah. This one's personal to me. Cher. Oh. So that's a Taurus. Many divas are Tauruses. You will learn that quickly. And many are also Leos. And. Including one in this room. And I was just going to say. We have to get to that in a minute. Of like, what kind of divas we are. If some of us are divas at all. Whitney Houston, of course. RuPaul, which we have to talk about. Boy divas. Patti LuPone. What is that for? Okay. I did have. Madonna. Diana Ross. Ooh, it's too hard to limit. Wait. Okay. I have Aretha. And I'm now going eight. Lil' Kim. But then I have what we need to talk about. Lil' Kim is a diva? Lil' Kim is a diva. Okay. So. I think. Rap. No, yeah, okay. Since we're expanding the genre. Yes. Okay. I think like. Again, it's like the performance element of it. And it's like the fashion, the drag. The fashion's. You gotta have the fashion. You gotta have the fashions if you're gonna be a diva. But then I'm like, where does like Whoopi Goldberg diva sing? Sister Act. Sister Act. Sister Act. Sister Act. She's got diva mentality. I don't want anyone in my house diva mentality. So she's an honorable mention for me. That's interesting. Technically. You're shaking the table. You're saying something important here. It's shook. Um. Okay. That's it with what you've heard. Okay. Now I'm sort of rethinking a bit. I. Okay. I'm. Now I'm rethinking a bit. I don't get that. Yeah. That's the power of conversation. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is in no particular order. But, I mean, this part is in a particular order. Aretha. Aretha has to be number one. I mean, my goodness. Like. Aretha with the purse on. Aretha with the camcorder always. Always. With her little fingertips. Um. Has to be. Okay. Then Cher. Cher is an obvious one. Um. Whitney, of course. Yeah. Of course. And Mariah. Fucking Mariah. I actually. Looking at my list, I have Whitney on here twice. That's her impact. That's correct for you. Um. You're like, and I'd do it a third time if I could. You said Patti LaBelle. I'm going to say. No, you said Patti LaPone. I'm going to say Patti LaBelle. Patti to Patti. I have to say. Patti versus Patti. Patti off. Patti off. Patti on. And I'm. I mean, I have to say Barbra Streisand. Oh. Like, come on. Diva. Diva, diva, diva. God, a good diva too. Okay. I. I think that men can be divas. Oh. Name them. Gender's not a spect. What? I'm an L in the LGBTQ and shows. This is kind of L.I.M. in the LGBT. I'm sorry. Boys can be divas, too. My radical opinion. You know what we forgot? I'm sorry. We forgot Celine Dion. Oh, my God. And those shoes. Uh, yes. Yes, we brought Celine Dion. And also, I'm going to say Martha Stewart. Diva, too. Oh, diva. Big diva. I actually feel like there was a list. Okay, wait. There was someone I was like, I feel like I'm missing them. And who is it? Okay, Tina Turner, but in my. Naomi Campbell. Oh, my God. Yeah, Naomi Campbell. I think if we're doing fringes of diva, Naomi Campbell. She's fringes of diva? Oh, because she's on the list. Because she's on the Epstein list. She's in the files. Does that preclude you from being a diva? I don't know. Maybe it should. There's a red dot on my forehead, by the way. Okay, wait. This is a really good one. I totally forgot. Because I feel like when we're talking about fat, like, fringes, fringes of diva, Donatella Versace, Dianne von Fossenberg, Bernadette Peters. I mean, Bernadette Peters is a vocalist, so that's different. I. Mary J. Blige. Of course. I mean, all that fur. During VH1 Divas Live, she was a diva. Yeah. She was invited to the Legends Ball, Oprah's Legends Ball. I mean, if you were invited to the Legends Ball, you are automatically granted into diva, except for Ashanti, because. Oh. You know, it was a time. She did her best. But I do. I'm opening up the. I think, like, diva, if you really work for it, it can be. It can exist outside of being a singer as well. Like, I think we have to leave space for divas. But I do think, for boys, hear me out, try to tell me they're not a diva. Andre Leon Talley. Yeah. Why is that a hear me out? Wait, I thought you said boys can't be divas. Well, I mean, except for. He's not a boy. He's Andre Leon Talley. Andre's like, um, actually, ally. Okay, wait. That's so different. That's so different. The gay ones make me feel obvious, like Luther Vandross, but maybe he was too nice, honestly. La Roche. Wait, Luther Vandross too nice? Wait, I thought he was nice. Uh, no. That's the first time he's ever gotten too nice allegations. Those women from En Vogue, he called the police on them because he didn't like their outfits backstage. I watched the doc. I did not realize it was. Oh, you watched the wrong doc. I watched the wrong doc. I can't even be watching the TikToks. That makes it maybe even more of a diva. Everyone has something to say about him. Okay, so gay men obviously get, like, a certain. I mean, oh my God, Luther Vandross doing superstar, like, uh, voice of an angel. Okay, he knew Hunter earlier, cut it right here, was like, well, it can't be divas. And now she's the radical left. Well, I'm, you know, God forbid I'm woke. She said, no hate. But, okay, I'm going to pitch a straight person. I mean, Karl Lagerfeld. Okay, duh. I'm going to pitch David Beckham. Oh. Get down. I think. I think the thing that, to me, stops him from being a diva is that he is not the top diva in his marriage. First of all. Second of all, I don't think you can be a diva and be, like, so much of a royalist. Something about that is, like, you're not giving diva. Like, if you love the royal family so much, it's like, well, you admit that you're not the top diva. I don't think it's right. That is. The power of debate. The power of debate. You would go crazy in a student UN or whatever the fuck. Ooh, I would love to see you play. Okay, that's a really good point, especially because Victoria is lapping him. Okay, what about Michael Jordan? I'm. Oh. Do I know anything about. Name three Bulls players. Can't. Can't. I know. But what I can name is the clip in The Last Dance of Michael Jordan. Oh, gosh. It's like, where do I even begin? Michael Jordan, like, sitting in the backseat of a bus, they're, like, going to a game, and it's, like, before game one, and he's like, oh, my God, yes, yes. Hunter listening behind. And someone's like, what are you. Someone's like, what are you listening to? He's like, Kenny Lattimore, unreleased. It's new. And it's like, first of all, what Kenny Lattimore song requires that? First question. Second question, the way that it's, like. He's like, we're friends. We're close friends. Also, whenever he's, like, chose everyone that's going to the Olympic team, like, on the Olympic team, he's like, I didn't. I just chose the people I liked. What can I say? I mean, even just. Diva. Divas, maybe a requirement of diva is you also have to have, like, historic beef with somebody. No, I think that's definitely a part of it. It's like, you can't get along. There has to be someone who's your op. I think that's kind of why some people are on the bubble for me, because I'm like, you're not really in a feud. Like, you don't have, like, a definitive. There's no, like. Yeah. You need your Scottie Pippen. Okay, wait. Do you have any boy divas? Yeah. Michael Jordan was on my boy diva list. Michael Jackson. You can't be that close to Elizabeth Taylor and not be a diva. Like, you. Legally. They were girls together. That's just the law. That's a good one. No, Michael Jackson at Liza Minnelli's wedding. Sitting in the back, like, oof. That's a diva right there. Okay, wait. You. Those are good ones. Other boy divas. Now I'm just kind of going off the jump. Dome. Um. Hmm. New cut, new color. Um. I think those are, like. Those are the biggest boy divas. There's, like. There's, like, diva. Like, I would never. I would never call, like, Anne Hathaway a diva. Not. Well, no, because. Not. That feels very, like, 2014 internet to call her a diva. Yeah. Like, mother. It's like, meh. Is she. But. That one's a sister. Sister. Cousin. For now. Cousin for now for me. Okay. She's got the pipes. But that video of her telling the paparazzi, Hey, uh-uh. I'm gonna come to you. You'll meet me there. And then we'll take the photo. Okay? Do you know that one's good? Oh, that's the one where she's outside the car. And she's like. Okay, no, no, no. Is that the one where she's like, Um, you can take photos of me. I can't say hi to everyone. You can take photos of me. I'll stand here for photos. And then I have to go. She goes, I come to you. And I was like, uh. Period. I love a bitch with boundaries. Yeah. Boundaries are important in diva-dom. You can't be too. And I think that's why it's hard right now. Because you can't be too. You can't be too available. You can't be too accessible. Yes, you can't be too available. You also have to. You can't tweet. You have to perform. You can't just walk around looking any type of way. That's what honestly stops Lana. Because she'll. She'll walk out of the house in some, like, Lisa Frank pajama bottoms. But she does that when she's going to, like, Oscars. No, I know. That's why she's not one. When she picked up her dress at the mall. Yeah, well. Which, that's kind of. People forgot. Not me, though. Um. Okay, so then, now I think we're getting to the Taylor Swift of it all where it's like, I don't think she checks any of these boxes. No. Like, you know, the draw of her live performance is something totally separate. But I don't think she checks. I think she truly, like. Especially in how she presents as a cat lady. How she really, like, you know, keeps that a core part of her image. Yeah. That's not a diva. Proudly. Yeah. Yeah. Wrong kind of fur. Selena Gomez, you can't be married to Benny Blanco and be a diva. I mean, my goodness. Oh, who? You can't even sing. But I love Selena Gomez's songs, though. I love her. Exactly. She, she. I love you like a love song. Okay, but I actually was going to say, you mentioned her earlier, and I was like, I don't know if Ariana Grande is a diva. I don't know. I mean, pipes. Yes. Ponytails. So much hair. I'm sorry. Who's she beefing with? Everyone's exes? Yeah. Everyone married. Anyone. Anyone married. Any wife. Yeah. She's beefing with Lena Waithe, you know? She's beefing with. Well, she was beefing with Victoria Jessica. We're all singers. There's not like. Like, I think she's like. This sounds bad. Like, looks too common, though, to me. Like, I don't think she has like a big. She looks too common. A beautiful girl. I mean, gorgeous. I like how you're saying beautiful girl as if looks too common. Common implies beautiful girl. I mean. Like, no, no, no. You're saying two separate sentences right now. You're saying looks too common and beautiful girl, so you needed to decide. Okay. I just mean, like, when I was talking about something that's essential for me. You see how I'm looking to the camera for help? She's gonna kill me. I think she doesn't have that, like, drag element to her. Like, where are her furs? Where are her. She doesn't dress. That's not a drag element? No. Style-wise, though. Like, clothing-wise. You forgot this. The boots? Yeah, the boots with the hoodies with Pete Davidson. No. No, no, no, no. The boots have to have fur on them. No, no, no. That's diva. Was it very 2018 of its time? That was just a diva that got digged down. That was a girl that got digged down voluntarily. That's a different thing. We're gonna get in trouble for over-talking, but I have to drown you out because. No. Because what you're saying right now is crazy. I love her. I think she's so close, but Miley Cyrus is more of a. Like, a full-time performer for me in terms of. Like, it's not just on stage. She is, like, in her real life. Like, she gives more drag to me. Okay, that's funny because I feel like my hear-me-out, I guess, is Ariana, and the one that's on the bubble for me more is Miley. Really? Like, I love. You know how I feel. I love Miley Cyrus. I would die for Miley Cyrus. However, to me, she's more like a Tina Turner, like, rock star. Wait, that's a good point because Tina Turner I was always like. ish to me. To me. To me. But Ariana, you're forgetting when she was black because I think a big part of being diva is being black. And. And Miley Cyrus. And Miley's not. Don't make me bring up bangers. Well. No skips. That was different. Yeah. That was different. Wigga for Wigga. That was different. That was different. I think with Ariana, though, it's like, okay, can sing. And has clip-ins. Has clip-ins. She really, I mean, she is a performer. And I think that Ariana, her insistence on singing live, even though she, like, wants to dance at the same time. Do you remember that one show that she was doing? She's not a dancer, though. I know, no. But she was doing one show. Was it the Nicki song? Whatever song. Side to Side? I don't know what I mean. Or Bang Bang. It was, like, it was one of those songs. She was, like, on, like, a cycle. She was, like, cycling while she was doing a live performance. It was, like, girl, you need to, like, sing to a track. Like, use how I'm breathy right now. Wait. I didn't. I did not know that. And I now really need to see it. But I don't think she's as much, like, I don't. I don't see it on the stage for her. I don't. I feel like even that alone did not sound diva. You're on a tricycle? What the hell? Not on a tricycle. She was on a damn near Peloton. Worse. Worse. At least the tricycle will show off for me. No, but I think that there's something about Ariana that she's not, like, accessible. She's not available. She does live on a different internet. Also, her feud with, I think, you know, kind of her scooter, Taylor, of it all. She kind of lives above the fracas. Hmm. And I'm just shocked. I mean, even her. The ponytail. I'm shocked that the ponytail of it all is not. I thought about the ponytail. I thought about it. I gave it grace. No, no, no. Only one person of our generation had Patti LaBelle at her 16th birthday party. And you were telling me that Ariana Grande's not a diva? That she's not a student of diva? Wait, wait, wait. Something I think we're realizing is, like, did you have to graduate? Like, can you graduate from Disney and be a diva? Raven-Symoné, kind of diva. No way, huh? Maybe her wife talks about her. No, she's not a diva. Yeah, a white wife can't be a diva with a white wife. That was, okay. Her wife was like, I don't. It's like, it's so, like, I don't know. I got to get on that podcast, though, also. Like, I'm like, I need to be in the den with them. I need to figure out what's going on. Because something's, like, crazy in there. No, go. We're part of the front line. And we're part of, like, a GoPro with me. Okay, wait. Speaking of future divas, though, or ones that maybe. Hear me out. Zara Larsson. I think she just escaped Kia Asylum and could be. On her way to diva-dom. Or do you think she's too accessible? Too accessible. Because she's got that Wi-Fi. I also think, like, Sabrina Carpenter to me. No. Like, performer, for sure. Performer drag. But not a diva. Maybe if Zara Larsson gets offline. Because she has the pipes for it. She has the look for it. Like, in terms of how she, like, stylizes herself. And also the way that she barks back. And barks back and doubles down. I think is really. I'm with her. Chapel? Chapel. So, we got to chapel. Someone had to bring it up. It's time to talk about chapel. What do you think? I think, in terms of her charisma, her public performance, I think she's there. I mean, she, to me, is giving, like, vintage Mariah. And that she will perform with having attitude. And I think that's wonderful to see. However, artistically, I'm like, you're a little bit too beloved by, like, like, Midwest princesses not giving diva to me. Like, that's yuck. Yeah. I. But King Princess, she's closer to diva to me than Chapel Roan. Go ahead and say that. I'll let you. No response. Quiet on the Western front over here. You mean the mean girl of the Upper East Side? She's not a diva? That's crazy. What is she descended from? The Titanic people? Love that. They're actually like that. It's like. That's diva. That's like very diva. And I feel like that's why Victoria Beckham diva really worked. Because it was like, oh, like, you had, like, money boots, didn't she? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When she was like. You got dropped off in a Rolls Royce. And she was like, I was middle class. And see, that's why. That's why David Beckham cannot be diva. Because he's like, I'm too close to a real diva. I know what it's like. To know. Oh, my God. Okay, wait. I was going to say, though. Chapel specifically has gotten. She's been under fire a lot recently. For being what the press is calling mean. Nasty. Or her bodyguards, more specifically, I guess. And no, well, she's kind of been like. Anti-paparazzi, which I'm pro. I'm pro. That one photo or video of her, like. I remember you. Remember that? Oh, God. Yeah, that was so, like, mom who. That was so, like, mom who drives you to the field trip. But, like, you're not riding in your mom's car. But she sees you acting out. And she's like. I'm scared. Like, she said, see me after class. Like, oh, my goodness. You will. Chills. Yeah. Do you think Chapel is a diva, though? And do you think being a diva, do you think she's diva rising? Where would you put her on the scale? I think she's definitely diva rising. I think she's absolutely got the look for it. I think she's got the pipes for it. I think, like, her. She teeters a line. She used to be very online. She's less online now. And I think that's good for most people's mental health. She's less online? A little bit. I mean. She's still. I'm always seeing her post stuff. But I would say compared to her, like, peers. Like, she's not as much. Like, she's not, like, a Zara Larson or a Pink Panther. It's, like, just tweeting. Just, like, doing whatever. Like, engaging with her fans like that. She doesn't. And that's kind of the problem. She doesn't really want to engage with her fans as much as I think we've now established as, like, a norm of accessibility for celebrities. It's, like, you're expected to engage to a certain degree. You know? But I think being a diva in some ways. I love that we haven't even talked about Beyonce this whole episode. Oh, my God. I know. But I think that she. Obviously, diva. We can get into that later. But I think with Chapel, it's, like, I think there has to be some tension, friction between a diva and her fans. And her fan base. I think there has to be some, like, we, like, where's the album? Like, there has to be some level, like, expectation. Oh, my God. Rihanna. Did we not talk about Rihanna? Oh, my God. We're sick people. We just said. We're not a musician anymore. So, she's already. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fine. She's already been. Out of protest. We're not talking about her. Yeah. I do. I do agree with you. There has to be a little bit of level of friction, which is why I think that she is a diva versus it, like, it can't be all love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that she has that level of. I honestly, to me, Chapel aligns with diva every way except for artistically. I think that her music leaves something to be desired where it is a bit. It's a bit too, like, white public school. It's a bit too, like, like, return to Tiffany. Tiffany necklace. It's a bit too that for me to be a diva. I think there's room to grow for her for sure. But she has a pipes that maybe if the music changes, I do think she has a vocal range. And, you know, she's early, early days. Yeah. So, I think we could brand her diva rising. Do you think a diva has to be mean? Because I do think there's a connotation with diva that it's like you're a little bit nasty. Yeah, I think so. You just said a diva has boundaries. What is being mean but just having clear boundaries? Just strict. And that's why you're a diva and I am not. I don't believe in borders in any kind of way. I'm always like, come on in. You literally just said, what did you say about Ariana Grande? You're like, oh, I mean, she looks too regular. This is what I'm talking about. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't get me got. So, you didn't say she looks too regular. Oh, my Lord. Here comes the stand base. I'm just saying everyone thinks, oh, Hunter's the diva and Peyton's the nice one. Well. I would, you, you are literally like Kim Kardashian telling Kourtney, I think you're the least interesting to look at. Damn those sisters. Let me never have a sister. Let me say that. Oh, my God. Thank God my brother's just like quiet. But like, I, again, Ariana, she's just not putting on the ritz for me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, look at Chappell's like red carpet outfits or performance outfits. Like, it's like, it's a spectacle. Ariana Grande wore pink exclusively for two and a half years, but she's not putting on a spectacle. No. She. Lots of people wore pink. She literally died. Dried her hair so many times it fell off. So she had to keep it in a ponytail. I remember that. For a decade and a half. I remember that was tough, actually. All that red. Naya Rivera walked in on her with Big Sean and said, oh, ponytail. And, but she didn't, she didn't commit to a look. I just think that we need to hear what we're saying right now. You are just telling me your biography. You're just naming things. Nothing to do with it. That's what I'm presenting evidence. I'm presenting the facts of the case. Us spending most of the diva episode. Being like, Ariana Grande is crazy of us. To have not mentioned Beyonce, but we were like. Well, I think the Beyonce thing, though. Vocally, of course, diva. Performance, of course, diva. Like, the length and breadth of her career is giving diva. But I think she's, she's nice in a way that I'm like. She's a, she's a good old Houston girl. Yeah. And that's not really giving. That's, that's even some diva to be desired. I know because I do like when a woman gets a little nasty. Like, I kind of, I get, I get frustrated when it's a little too. Like, safe. Like, I feel like we used to even just get better interviews with divas. that were like, oh, you're being so fucking shady. Yeah. And in a way that, like, everyone's too afraid to do that now. Like, everyone just wants to be nice. Yeah. Except, I'm like, is that true for. Is anyone being mean right now? Chapel. Chapel's the only one bravely being mean. Yeah. And, you know, look, they want to. She's pilloried as a result. But I think being too nice is the, like. It makes Beyonce not exactly. Not exactly, like, according to our diva rubric. But, I mean, obviously every other thing, she checks every box. Like, what I'm getting at is, like, the difference between Beyonce and Mary J. Blige. Mary J. Blige, we went to her. That one concert, she literally was like, here's my biggest songs, you sing them. Since you want to hear them so bad, you go ahead and sing them. I want to do the new material only. Truly. And it's like, okay, so Beyonce would never do that. Yeah. Because she is, like, star student. Yeah. And also, like, auteur. And I think. I don't think you need to be an auteur to be a diva. I think there are a lot of divas who, you know, really can channel things and really, like, their diva-dom supersedes everything else. And that, to me, is like Whitney doing the national anthem. The busted-ass national anthem. She made it into her own song. Thank God. I watched that video just to feel alive. And, yeah, I would agree. Sometimes that melds up, right? Auteur and Mariah Carey and her pen going, and also her mouth going crazy anytime she wants to talk about. Well, let's do diva moments. That brings us to diva moments. Diva moments. And there's so many of them, right? Let's go back and forth. Diva moments. The. Never mind. Do you even know the context? Wait, when she was, like, talking about American Idol judges? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you have to say the first part, though. Okay, so this is Patti LaBelle. She's a host on American. No. She's not a host on American Idol. No, no, she's not. Yeah, but she's talking about the hosts of American Idol. Yes. And she said, well, some of the. And she literally has a mug. She's in an interview with the Associated Press. She says, well, some of the judges shouldn't even be judging. And then what does the interviewer say? Anyone specifically? She says, never mind. Never mind. But the way she does. It's perfect. The lips themselves are just. Never mind. Like, that to me is diva. Patti LaBelle. Also, like, diva crashing out. Where are my background singers? What was the card? Let me see the card again. She was at the White House performing at, like, tree lighting or something. And she's singing This Christmas and she doesn't know the lyrics, which, like, happens. And the cue cards are fucked up. There's no background singers. She just keeps going, This Christmas! Woo! Next cue card, honey. Honey, the next cue card. It's just like, oh, my God. Shout out to Aaron Edwards for showing me that video. Changed my life. Patti LaBelle, so many moments. Okay, I'm. That, the Patti one was on. Oh, no. I have another Patti moment. I'm going to go Patti for Patti. Patti on. What was. It was, like, a morning show. And they're baking because, you know, Patti's pies. And this woman, this white woman is like, okay, like, it's a cupcake. Like, you know, eat the paper. And Patti's like, she, like, breaks the fourth wall, looks right to the audience. Who said I was going to eat the paper, boo? She. That tiny white woman was about to get hit, for real. No, she truly was like, do you think I'm dumb? Yeah. Like, sorry. Okay, love that. That was such a good one. Yeah, but I don't eat paper, boo. And she didn't let it die, too. No, no, no. She was like, I'm going to make it clear to everyone. She's basically like, this is paper that I'm not eating. There was, like, a follow-up interview to that, like, years later, where she was like, I was about to deck that woman. Like, what is wrong with you? Like, she was like, I love divas double down. That's the thing. Exactly. She was like, I said what I said, and I'll say it louder next time if you need me to. I love that in a woman. Exactly. I think, I mean, I mentioned this moment earlier, but the Wendy Williams, Aretha Franklin moment, where she basically just, not even basically, she calls Wendy Williams stupid. And she was like, you might be gullible, not me. And she was like, Wendy Williams was like, ooh, like, don't make me fight you. And Aretha goes, you going to get decked. A diva can low-key throw hands. You have to throw shade, or throw hands, or both. This reminds me of one of my favorite Whitney diva moments, where she is, she is covering Natural Woman in, I think, like, Sao Paulo, or maybe in, like, South Africa. Somewhere, like, some, like, concert not in the U.S. And Bobbi Brown is, like, on the side of it. She's, like, singing it to him, and it's, like, really beautiful, although it's delivered to Bobbi Brown, so what can you really say? But, Wendy Williams is like, ah, so this is, there's this old Aretha tune. You know Aretha Franklin, don't you? Yeah, I know. Like, it's like, I don't think these Brazilians are, like, as annoyed with Aretha Franklin as you are, Yeah, like, so that's personal. But I love it. Like, I think about that all the time. Another Whitney moment, whenever she's in that one interview, and someone is like, oh, all the time? And she's like, not all the time, no. Sometimes. That means some times. Period. That is a diva. She, um, fuck, what was that? I feel like there's so many clips from that interview alone, where she was just like, Yeah. I don't know. I listen to singers. I've never listened to people who cannot sing. And beautiful gowns. God, so many beautiful gowns. That was Aretha. What? I know, I know. I'm just, I'm naming, like, moments. But I was thinking, like, a diva is someone who's gonna give you, like, a clear, specific line. It doesn't have to be explicit about what or who they're talking about, but you'll know exactly. Yes. Like, it's all in the tone. It's all in the delivery. Yes. And I think, to that standard, Mariah is our last, like, maybe our youngest reigning diva. Well, no, Miley. Miley. Okay. So you got me. You got me. You got me. You got me. I need, like, a spotlight, a canon for her. This never happened. A canon? A canon. Yeah. Like, violence. Like, I just died on 100 games. A canon. Like, it was Pirates of the Caribbean. I'm gonna say, yes, Miley to that. Because Miley and, Miley and Nikki. Miley. Back to that bitch that had a lot to say about me in the press. Miley was good. We all do interviews. We all know how this goes. She handled that really well, actually. She, and she, like, immediately turned the camera and was like, okay, moving on. Anyway, so. Yeah. I feel like if a bitch is not afraid to clap back, she's a diva. Yes. That is, and Miley has a memory, too. She remembers who, who's wronged her. Yep. That is another diva. Yeah. That's another diva mentality. Um. I'm trying to, oh, diva moment. This is young diva moment. This is when I knew she was gonna be a diva. My eyes are his. Was when she was bullying Selena Gomez on her YouTube channel. Do we all remember that? She was bullying Selena and Demi. I'm glad they made up. I'm glad that we're good now. Kumbaya. But she, bar for bar, made up their video and, like, made fun of them. Her, Miley and Mandy. The Miley and Mandy show. If anyone watched that, I was addicted to their YouTube show. Mm-hmm. And, like, when you bully, sometimes bullying bad, but sometimes diva. I'm gonna say diva moments. Cher on Twitter. Cher is the only diva who can be too online and it will never be enough. I remember, I, honestly, like, there's so many Cher tweets that in my mind are viral, like, to me, that I don't know if they, when she told me when she told someone, like, you're nothing. Bitch, you're nothing. That sounds like Rihanna to me. Good luck booking that. Well, no, no, no. That was when Cher, I remember someone was, like, it was something about ICE, like, in 2016, and Cher was, like, we need to, like, bring people in to our homes. We need to open our homes, like, let immigrants live with us. And some white woman responds, sure, you will, Cher. Like, right. Like, you're just, you're never gonna do any of that. And Cher responds, keep your eyes open, bitch. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, what? But it's like, she's so visibly online in a way that she, like, doesn't realize she's so online sometimes. Well, can anyone see me? I mean, she tweets like my grandfather. It's like, he thinks he's talking directly to people. Iconic Cher tweet. Yeah, she's, oh, my God. And every time she wore a face mask in public, just every, that one intro video of her, of her show, and it's, like, the big reveal every single time. Oh, yeah. Just, of course. But, I mean, every, like, you know, sequin, glitter, like, bodysuit, hair. Thank you for your work. Like, invented the bust down. Like, that's, that's, like, diva. Yeah, divas got inches on them. Yeah. Wait, so, we have to kind of answer the question, like, well, do you, do you identify as a diva? I identify as a woman who's good at what she does. You tell me, am I a diva? I think when you're hungry. Does that make me a diva? When you're hungry, I think you're a diva. Well, I mean, anyone hungry is a diva. Oh, no. No. You do it in a special way. Eat a cracker? Chew a nut very slowly? No, I think, I really don't think I'm a diva. I think I like things a certain way. Yeah. I don't think that makes me a diva. Strict. Mm-hmm, strict. And I do have a long memory. I remember who's wronged me. She's like, and I'll name them. Yeah. I'm going to eat camera. Okay, period. Are you a diva? I was born a diva, but I lost it along the way. Yeah, I put it down. I put divadome down. So sometimes you got to, you evolve, you change. Huh. And when did you put it down and why? Last night. No, I put it down because I realized like, oh, I like need to have boundaries and I know that I don't have them. Like I know that I'm very, I'm a little, I'm too accessible to the common man. And I am the common man in a lot of ways. I'm not a diva. Okay. I don't have the backbone for it. or the wrist strength but I know that I get a lot of you know I like things the way I like them but when you are done you and that's again Taurus Taurus once my life when you've had enough you said and I really need to go and I actually really need to go and I've no I've had enough and sometimes it'll happen quick too I'll be like like it'll be like but no I don't have I don't have that sauce in me I wish I did okay so wait I guess we have to answer the question like is the diva dead I don't think the diva is dead but I think the diva is an endangered species as I said in the beginning I think that alright like the modern conception of celebrity like in the social media age is not suited to diva-ing because because you're a diva and then guess what you end up on Dumois and someone's like oh she was mean to me in line at Alfred Coffee and it's like well first of all diva should not be at Alfred Coffee to begin with yes absolutely not and you know what a diva never seems to be sitting down and prank calling somebody I'm like divas would like you know like the Elle video like if you're doing those little like sit down like videos it's like you can't be sitting divas don't sit down unless you're Madonna asking for a fan in a room it's like that's yeah maybe we need to redefine what a diva like there's a modern day diva but the the old ways of divadom I think are dead the old ways the old guard the old the old traditions the old yeah open the sacred text okay okay now question question for the culture is there a diva we missed let us know because listen we only know what we know we could be missing a a Ray Ray Ray all of her music is too male centered to be a diva who else is a diva to you then if Ray is in the conversation I don't know someone told me to listen to Ray I said I'll get there so maybe it's Ray Olivia Dean I had to Olivia Dean I had to block her on Spotify it was too much it was too much every playlist they were shoving her down my throat I'm like enough I'll find her in my own time in the our foundation shade section of Sephora right so blocking someone on on Spotify diva you didn't even know how to do that oh my god diva I told you I told you that Sally song get your Sally up here I like it yuck that's why you're not a diva I know I like too many white people yeah you're too like like too many white people like like banjo kind of music okay so let's end this podcast before a slur comes out of Hunter's mouth oh my god banjo is a slur I think it should be and you're right to say it hi I'm Nicole Phelps global fashion news and features director at Vogue and co-host of the Run Through podcast you can find me on each week on the show our listeners get an all access pass into the world of Vogue on Tuesdays join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein Rachel Scott and Simone Bellotti on Thursdays join Chloe Mao head of editorial content at Vogue US and Choma Nadi British Vogue's head of editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie listen and watch the Run Through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel your body is always changing and those changes can feel like a lot to navigate alone weight that won't budge skin that starts to show signs of change hair loss mood swings Middie Health gets it because Middie was built for exactly this by women for women their clinicians specialize in the hormonal shifts that occur throughout your life so you're not getting generic care you're getting expertise for exactly where you are Middie is the trusted virtual care clinic for women's health with specialists trained to treat everything from weight changes to skin care sleep mood and hormonal health they listen they dig into root causes and they build you a personalized care plan with treatments that fit your needs you shouldn't have to keep guessing and with Middie you won't Middie visits are available in every state and covered by most insurance plans so expert care that actually sees you is more accessible than you think book your first virtual visit today at joinmiddie.com that's join m-i-d-i dot com