Is ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Dead on Arrival? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5.

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am the editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio somehow Gambit has returned its end-degree world. What a big show for us today. That's a rich tapestry. Life's a rich tapestry. Yeah. Imagine. Sure. That's Andy Greenwald. I'm Chris Ryan. You can hit us up at TheWatchItSpotify.com. We are going to be doing a mailbag not this week. I guess the following week I'm trying to like plot out like because I'm going to go away for a little chunk. But we're going to have some stuff for you. Yeah. We're going to do a special I think on Anthony Bourdain coming up. And in honor of the movie Tony, TheWatchItSpotify.com, The WatchPod_Instagram, Ringer-TV on YouTube where we share a little shingle with prestige TV who have been covering Cape Fear. It's like our own little Heron Hall. Who owns it? Do you know what it is? The Alice Rivers, I think. And yeah, that's what we do. We cover pop culture and mostly TV on Mondays and Thursdays. I'm Chris Ryan. Have I mentioned that? Yeah. I've been broadcasting pretty much non-stop for an entire month. So it's starting to get a little gamey here. We're going to get you through it. I want to thank you. So a nation thanks you for addressing in the colors of lettuce to celebrate what we've lost as a country. Yeah. Not me. I'm as a Taco Bell all weekend. Just stand line. Just stand line. They have to let you eat. Just like the Jordan Peel meme of like what? Trickle of sweat. Today on the show, Andy and I are going to talk about the following, The Doomsday trailer. The X-Files possibly being a movie as well as a TV show. We're going to talk a little bit about some Netflix numbers that popped out to me. And we're also going to talk about the release of the classic cult classic television show, The Prisoner, on the Criterion channel. That sounds like a healthy lineup. It is. I look forward to talking about it with you. Perhaps the most important thing that's happened to this podcast since Donald Trump's re-election, apparently Rachel Cusk is writing a novel about Natalie Portman. Yours. Okay. For years. For years. Why start with shit like that? And you're like, why don't we save that for the special segment at the end? I can't even say that that could feasibly go into after dark. That would be like a crime. This is all I want to talk about. And you know what? I've always said. Yeah. When it comes to the two Rachel's, I'm a Kushner. That's just how it is. It's true. There are two tribes. There's also a Miss Rachel, I believe. Yes. Yeah. And she's on the Netflix top 10. God bless her. And but you're a Cusk guy and I really need your comments on this. You know, I have dabbled on both sides of the aisle. Okay. But I feel like you're not, you don't have a house that creation leak if you know what I'm saying. No, I got, I did do a time share there and I got a host because that book was really good. No, it's not. The book's cool. By the way, the best part about this podcast, just I feel like in real time, there's breaking news. Judge granted a temporary restraining order to pause the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. But let's talk about Rachel Cusk. What do you want me to say to that? Nothing. I'm just on the, we're just on the front foot. This is great. Do you, what judge, judge Roy Bean, who did that judge, who appointed me as people? Okay. So let's do a little backstory here. I feel like Kai is going to appreciate this as well. Are you leading with this? Because I was going to say you wanted a doomsday. Then we can do. Okay. Doomsday then we can do Rachel Cusk. Doomsday for Natalie Portman, AKA Jane Foster, formerly Thor. How about that? There we go. Okay. Okay. Let's do doomsday, but I do want to talk about the other thing. So they dropped the doomsday trailer this morning, they, and I will say they have got some fucking cheek putting this out the Monday after I see I'm trying to think of what this would be like. Sure. This would almost be like, you have like the crazy, amazing weekend with your stepdad who just buys you all this stuff for your birthday and then like alcoholic dad shows up on Monday and is like, Hey, I got a bottle head at the Dodgers game that I snuck into. And it is really struggle meal hours over there, Disney, no offense guys, but yeah, I don't think you can keep selling us the same shit. Look, the concern level has gone up considerably. Yeah. I'm going to be seeing this movie. I look forward to talking about all the build up and all the nonsense, but I, I saw thanks to our friend Meena Kimes at the ice bucket challenges back. I would like to suggest a new challenge. People put real people in an actual room challenge the fact that after all of these years and after all of this money and after all of this hype, we're back in the purple halls of nowhere, Doug. Yeah. It's just negative space that's super, super dark and you can tell like as there has been reporting to sort of at least suggest this, these guys don't know what they're saying. They don't know what scene this is. They don't know when the scene is happening and what two movies stretch that they're in this like indefinite servitude in Atlanta to shoot like they have no idea and it's funny because it does no one will be more happy than I would be if like secretly the bones of this movie were strong and good. We love the stuff that this movie is going to be about is like a generationally good comic run. The Jonathan Hickman stuff. Yes. Okay. But here's my feeling watching this trailer because I have been relatively I think bullish on this movie. This weekend I was with my my children, we were walking in a lovely neighborhood and the Northeast of Los Angeles and across the street we saw some branding for a place that caught my eye. It was like bright eye catching. I had a little cartoon iconography and I was like, oh, is that a new, is that a change? Is that something I'm supposed to know? Is that something that kids might like? And I got closer and it looked like a Japanese eatery of some kind and you know me, I love the foods of the Far East. Yeah. And I was like, this seems exciting and I got closer and had like a cute name and the image of like a cat eating something that looked like sashimi and I was like, what could be more interesting than this? You have my attention. You have me. And I got closer and I saw that it seemed to be an entire store dedicated to selling slices of raw fish inside of cooked tofu skin. Okay. Now who among us doesn't love Yuba? You know I do. I feel like that was my thing. Hold on. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me set that up so that you could show. No, thank you. What you bought. Do you think anyone who's listened to this podcast for 10 years thought I didn't know the name of tofu skin? Go ahead. Come on. Go ahead. My point was, I don't think people want this as much as the stores optimism thinks that it does. And that is how I felt being like carried along the hype wins for a few months. And then the reality of gambit versus shung chi in a dark room. So I would say that's what I want. Originally, with all due respect to all the characters featured in this in this trailer, my initial reaction was like, oh, they're doing this is the trailer for like like the newer characters, the year, uh, what was the Florence P movie that was Thunderbolts. Thunderbolts. Thunderbolts. Yes. Yeah. Wasn't that like your favorite movie of the year? I thought it was the most emotionally engaged as the most, yeah, it was the truest emotional movie. Did you send like a weird emo text or I was like, I had real feelings and tears watching that. I did not say tears. That was about people working through their trauma and pain. My favorite subject. That sounds like me. That does sound like me. I didn't say tears. That's fine. Yeah. But you see a bunch of people like Namor and Shuri and uh, Ant-Man and Yelena and all these people. And you're like, okay, like this is actually when you kind of think about what's happened to this cinematic universe, like these are the, these are the guys I sort of expected. And there's a brief cyclops, which I assume is Marston, right? It's Marston. And get gambit. You get, you get these glimpses of people, but I was like, oh, I bet they're going to save the homies for like the next trailer, right? Like they have to, they have to have, like Thor and Hulk and all the guys and the next, whatever the go on. And they had to give away the like Steve's back. They had to give away Steve one because they had nothing. Right. I mean, Thor is the star of the trailer because he's the only remaining star of the movies that were popular. Right. And uh, the corny, the, the cornyest thing is that it's not just that your man Steve's back. It's that they just redid the beat that made everyone scream on YouTube that he's worthy. Yeah. They just did it again. Yeah. Now it has been, has it been 10 years? No. How long is that? Well, seven calendar years, but COVID, so really it's only been about three or four years. Okay. By my math. Okay. Um, I just been Bradley and all the presidents, Ben voice, they haven't got it. Like whatever it, it's a really good story. It's a really hard story to tell the secret or is thing that they're probably trying to do here. I, I, I wonder whether or not I'm reacting to like, maybe, maybe the thing they're going to show me is doom. Maybe, maybe doom will save this whole thing. Ironically. Cause they showed you the thing. What? The thing. Doom. No. And grim the thing. Yes. They show me the thing. But maybe doom. Sorry. That's a little Marvel word play. Maybe doom is what's going to sell this whole project. And maybe, maybe like his accent. Uh, no. Did you I mean, I don't know, like his accent. I didn't know if you wanted me watching the studio shows on the World Cup. Yeah, sure. I like that one less that one. Yeah. Look, I mean, they have, they're in an interesting bind where they have, they have not been shy about telling us that like one of the planks of this movie is the Thunderbolts. One of the planks of this movie is the 2000s Fox X-Men, and one of the planks of this movie is the Wakandans and the Fantastic Four. And they're like, that's the big tent that we envision for this party. And to your point, I don't know if it's enough. Now, they've also done the same thing. They've tried to be cute in the same way they were with Infinity Ward and Game where they're like Spider-Man's not in this one, but it'll be in that one, you know, and I think that they have tried to suggest that this will tee up true craziness with everyone back in the next one. But so far, they can't give away. You said Hulk in the gang. Like, I think the story is that Hulk, Spider-Man, these characters are not Deadpool. I imagine Deadpool will be in this movie. And I imagine that this true sign of desperation will be signaling that in the next or like an excessive amount of Deadpool voiceover, you know, or the Deadpool cut of this trailer. Yeah, although I don't mean like, I don't know where Brian Reynolds stands right now. They're playing that like that weird Mayday movie with him and Kenneth Brenner. They're just like, do you know what they should do? dumping that on Apple TV? You know what the real power move would be? They put Deadpool in the movie. And you know, it's multi-versal with her. And the Deadpool pulls off his mask at one point and it's Justin Baldoni. That would be a curveball. That would be wouldn't that be so sick? Would you be so engaged with that content? You would love that. Make me really excited to see it. And then Lady Deadpool would be his Mrs. Baldoni. I don't know her name. Last comment, because I think this is something we should be tracking between now and December when this movie is released. You have been, you have been bold. You have been brave. You have put the Russo brothers on Fraud Watch years ago. Yes. Ever since they ruined my beloved novel, Cherry, did I like so much when they when I was like, these guys again, they don't have it. So they they came back. They sure did. And looks like they spent a lot of money in some dark sound stages in London. Yeah. Yeah. Look, who among us wouldn't want to spend time doing that. But okay. They they it's interesting to think that this will become more of a like, um, expiring your contract that these two movies that are supposed to save the MCU will become more of a like, how do we get off the doomsday thing? You know what I mean? So crushing so that you can get to X-Men because that's what this is all about. It's like if X-Men, if they cast X-Men right and they do it right, that will give this whole thing another 10, 15 years, maybe of oxygen. But if they don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how much longer Disney's in this weird spot. Like I'm not projecting that they're going to ramp down the MCU and put it into hibernation for 10 years or something. But they've got to start making things that people actually love again. Yeah. And they have not done that in a long time. Well, that's just not that's not just Marvel. That's their cartoons. That's everything. Yeah. The Moana thing is an abomination. Yeah. That was ridiculous. But Star Wars is in the mud. Moana. Yeah. You know, like these live action adaptations of cartoons like Josh tomorrow. Come on, man. Give me a call. I'll help you out. Do you I believe the, well, the rumor is that at Comic-Con, the X-Men cast will be announced. So I got a hoodwinked by a tweet this weekend, where I didn't retweet it. Hoodwinked by a tweet. My life. But it was like breaking down who's like who in the X-Men like there's the rumored casting and it was like Cooper Hoffman is Cyclops. Sadie Sink is Jean Grey and he was going and then it's like Erica Kirk is Emma Frost. That was like damn. That was like wait. You leaned in though. It's definitely a way to engage. Right? Yeah. JD Vance is new baby. Somebody. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of smoke around some of the names that I imagine that they are not inaccurate, at least in terms of people having been engaged in like like I Charles Milton, apparently, joining the cast. Odessa as I as beast. Odessa as I on his rogue. Oh, I've seen Kaley Spanias rogue. Interesting. Where is that different algorithms? Was that also the turning point USA cast list? That you seem to be okay. It's fine, you know. I just wanted to mention that X files, the rebooted X files. Yeah. Which is coming from Ryan Kugler. It got announced over like the last couple of days that he's shooting the pilot on 65 millimeter film and that it's going to be a two hour pilot that might hit theaters. And I wanted to ask you about whether or not in your experiences, you know, obviously working as a writer and talking to people. Do people seriously think through and think about the theatrical slash TV hybrid model? Because this is something that is legendarily not really worked, right? Like people like a certain story because of the way it's told in a certain medium. There's a real like logic to X files shows. Now they're movies. I happen to really like the X files movies. Yeah. But they I wouldn't say that they gave X files like a whole new birth, you know, like a life. I think it's a good question. I know when things are talked about that in terms of like actually a hybrid hybrid strategy. Yeah, because everyone's on time like somebody comes along and they're like, I'm going to do dark tower. And it's going to be five seasons and two movies that that doesn't work. But what does work, I think, and this is I'm sure they've talked about it. This would be a good topic for the big picture, too, is there has been a blurring of lines and maybe I don't mean of standards, but of like putting things in theaters as a way of getting enthusiasm of building excitement, of signifying something important or major works and has worked increasingly, I think, as the movie theater to the degree that it is surviving is surviving as a place for for true unbridled hype and communal experience. So stranger things finale, I think premiered in theaters or at least there was a theater opportunity experience that weekend. I think you were away when I talked about this, but a Netflix formerly YouTube, then Netflix show that my daughters loved called the amazing digital circus premiered its final episode in theaters a week before it went on Netflix. Is it like 25 million, right? Yes. And some of those millions were mine. No, some of those dollars that added up to millions are mine. I am not a stub's member. So I had to pay full full boat. And that works. So I think the I think in this case, which is a reboot of a property with real cultural legs and memory from a filmmaker, one of the few filmmakers who can open movies. I think it's incredibly smart way to get people watching the TV show, especially if, as you said, they're filming it anyway and it's going to look amazing on people's nice televisions. Why not? Yeah, I have no, I mean, I want to see him as Patel and Daniel Deadweiler. It's such a good thing to find aliens like that can happen in any way. Part of the sort of thrill of watching and even going back to watch X files is the variance from episode to episode because they were still operating in that 20 per year, 20 per season model and there are some duds. There are some funny ones. There are some good monsters of the week. There are some great serialized stories. And you know, I don't know whether this will be like an eight episode kind of prestige feel or whether they'll try to recapture some of that original energy, I would have to imagine if Google girls like a spending time with it, it's because he likes the totality of X files and not just like I hope Fox Walter sister got disappeared, you know, she did. She did. She did. You know, who else's sister disappeared was John Sugar from the television show sugar. Honestly, the tie-in is right there. It's obvious. I just got chills. Yeah, sugar files. If the Xbox, no, but the thing is the new X files get the case. And we're like, oh, my God, detective John Sugar is going to be outed as an alien by the X files, but actually the case is who the fuck Greenlit this where he's an alien. And so the investigation is coming for is a Hollywood story. I like that. Yeah, good. Good. Good. Okay. The files great. Netflix releases. It's last biannual what we watched report. A moment of silence for that. Explain this to me. It's the last. They had been releasing biannual reports about what, you know, they're, they're for the sake of transparency. They're some of their data on, on what shows were being watched, what capacity, where, all that stuff. And I think that the idea was that that was supposed to be a nod to not only transparency to customers, but to creators and also to investors and Netflix. It's like, check out the incredible number we had on stranger things. Yes. And particularly if it's things like the ones you just mentioned, which are properties they are. Yes. And now they've announced that they're going to go to an annual model. I think the reason this jumped out when I read about it in deadline was because I know that Trump had sort of been like, why are we doing quarterly financial reports anymore? Which seems like that would benefit somebody like Trump, but not well isn't he isn't too busy selling early market moving tweets to social. Exactly. So I, you know, I'm not saying that Netflix is trying to manipulate the market. And as much as I know, I think this. this became of note because we're in this weird moment with Netflix where for our purposes, we have not gone to it as much, for where we cover. - Yes, there is still entertaining content on the service and they're obviously putting themselves a little bit more in the center of the live television experience by doing all these wrestling and comedy and they've got NFL games, they have NBA games. - They have the home run derby. - Yeah, the home run derby. So they're in the mix now and that is a bigger deal to them than Ripley, right? - Yeah, sure. - But I found it very interesting that, you know, not only some of the highlights over the last four years, which deadline accumulated some stats from like basically the era that they were doing by annual reporting. And you know, there are some interesting things like, among the top 20 shows over the last four years, Eric Bannas Forest Ranger Show untamed, which Nairia Person, I think other than me, watched. - Same more about that. - Well, I like mountains and I like national parks. - I like Eric Bannas. - Is it a scripted series or does he just go to mountains? - Honestly, it probably would have been better and if it was latter, but it is a scripted series. And while I enjoyed it, it gets, it's a real like this should have been a three episode show or a two hour movie, but instead now we have four or five episodes that are about like your complicated relationship with your daughter. - Now, hold on, now I'm interested. I think also given the fact that we kind of dropped off Squid Game after season one. - We did. - And I could never really tell how popular it was. It is insanely popular and is the, I believe the most recent, there's, there's two seasons of a Squid Game in the top three shows of the last four years, Adolescence is number two. And it speaks to like what a phenomenon that was and I would be shocked knowing that if they didn't figure out a way, if not to like bring back that specific character group to do something anthology around it. - I believe it's happening. - Yeah, I mean, like it just is like you, this was lightning in a bottle. - There were rumors that are the friend of our pod, dear friend Kate Winslet was circling a role in a second season of Adolescence. - Really? - I don't know the base on anything. I mean, I believe I got that from turning point, I'd say as well. (laughing) - So those are some of the, you know, Adolescence, the gentleman did very well over the last four years. Basically all of Stranger Things is in the top 20 for the last four years. From this year and from January to June, this is their top 10, his and hers, which, by the way, I'm shocked by. - Me too. - Not, you know, not because we're not stakeholders in Bernthal Holdings Limited. - I'm legitimately like, I had no idea that this was essentially a blockbuster. It's above Bridgerton. I mean, it was not well received, I would say, by critically, clearly audience. - That's the Tessa Thompson, John Bernthal, Thriller, Bridgerton, I will find you, which I think is one of the Harlan Coben shows. Stranger Things season five, the last season, which I guess technically came out in 25, right? - I would hope so 'cause otherwise, Stranger Things season five, getting half the numbers of his and hers would be catastrophic. - Well, I don't know if it's half the numbers or is it like a decimal point below, but I'm just reading more. - Or is it that most people were so excited about the show they watched at the minute it came out? - Yes, and I also like Netflix's way of calculating its popularity could have to do more with, I mean, they say it had 56 million, I think, views. - Sure. - I don't, I think there's another 50 million who watched it the day it came out. And season five also was broken down. It's such like a long stretch out. Run away, I don't know what that is. Teach you a lesson, I don't know what that is. One piece, you know what that is. - Well, hopefully. - Man on fire, which to my great regret, we did not discuss was number eight, Miss Rachel, number nine, and the night agent season three, number 10. - Okay. - Do you look at that and divine any great learnings? - Not particularly. I mean, I think that everything that we recognize on here, I think tracks to us as what works on Netflix. And certainly, one of the reasons we know that is because they make a lot of shows that feel like these shows that fit into certain boxes. Things that will work better on their service. I think the bigger conversation here is more about what you were saying in terms of how they are evolving their service and the future that they see for it. The A side to this B side story about how they're going to change their reporting is they miss their earnings again, and their stock tumble considerably this week. It dropped, their stock dropped 9.5%. It's the second straight miss that they've had and the financial reporting of which I'm responsible for none and I don't fully understand, said that it was mostly to do with a reassessment of what the company's strengths and plans are after the failed Warner Brothers bid, which I think perplexed investors and sort of mixed results for what they care about in terms of the expansion. That's why the other story this week it was bubbling was people were asking Netflix, when are you going to launch a fast service? When are you going to launch an ad supported service? When are you going to? - They have some ad tears and now they've talked about having some always on channels on Netflix. - Right, so there's two ways to look at it. One way to look at it is Netflix is a juggernaut and can experiment with almost anything and it is still kind of de facto streaming TV for most households and that's an advantage that the other companies can never reach, they can never reach. The other version of looking at it is they're trying anything. They are trying anything to try to get some purchase like get their boots on the ground of something sustainable because the go, go, go, we will just keep spending to show growth to get investor confidence. That inevitably hits some sort of a ceiling and they get, this is not me concerned trolling Netflix but it is interesting in terms of its identity and the way we always approach it from what we do here is what is the scripted television? Like what are their calling cards? What is their business in that? And I wonder if internally what the ratio of, what's the Venn diagram of Netflix's value and growth areas when you're actually in the boardrooms? Is it how do we expand into live programming and sports to become the de facto hub? Is it do we do a commercial tier? How loud are the voices saying, no, no, more stranger things original shows on Broadway? Literally though, like in terms of like merch and K-pop demon hunters and becoming a brand in that sense. I don't know, but it's an interesting moment to see a company that is absolutely dominant struggling and I'm putting that in quotes. It is not struggling. But in terms of its cash positive now, it's just one of those, if I remember the most recent thing I read, it was like Netflix is actually making money. It's just that it's stock price and it's, yeah. And it's like perception to the town and to Wall Street is a little bit rusty right now. And when you become, when you return to opacity, when you get less transparent, let's say, with your data, which is what they're doing by going from twice a year to once a year, that will make people skittish. I think my big learning from this is there is now a Netflix genre and that it's not quite CBS, but bingeable and it's not quite like Apple, but a little bit faster and dirtier and, you know, I, there's something about this to create this sort of like, there's a lot of grabby thrillers. Yeah, there's a lot of genre stuff, but genre stuff that isn't like, I don't find particularly like what I go to for genre. Like the Coban industry. Yeah, or maybe even Night Agent, which I think like I watched a little bit of the first season and thought it was fine. And that was, but the idea that it's a juggernaut show is kind of surprising to me. But it's interesting because you and I spend so much time talking about these HBO shows and talking about these Apple shows and, you know, other streamers. And this is really obviously like dwarfs a lot of what we talk about in terms of how many people are watching this, but I don't really find many shows there to talk about and order to really like interrogate. And maybe that's my failing as a, as a commentator, you know, but there maybe is like a transition here where you're seeing the end of the Pure Freedland era who is there when they were putting up Ripley and maybe some of their international purchases were more interesting. Yeah, and he was there for a very long time. Now he's at Amazon and I don't think they really care about whether or not they win Best Drama at the Emmys. I mean, like I think adolescence is really nice for them. I think baby rangers, really nice for them. Baby ranger has done historically well for them over the last four or five years. But I don't really see a ton of stuff on here where they're like, ooh, which we could be competing with White Lotus this year, you know? The other thing that they've abandoned for the most part is third seasons. And increasingly like two seasons is starting to seem like a lot. And that is because they are so cutthroat about the data and they're like, the numbers go down. They're abandoning those for the shows that we might watch. They're not abandoning it for like ransom canyon and virgin rivers, you know? But those shows don't get seven years. There's a couple that do. Well, like Lincoln lawyer I think just got cut down after five and that's a huge show for them. Yeah, but they have like a kind of weird like middle age CW kind of show where it's like a guy who has a general story. You know what the CW stands for? Conventional Wisdom. They have like those shows where it's like, she's a divorced mom and he, [BLANK_AUDIO] Bridal's horses. First of all, Minka Kelly deserves paychecks. Yeah. So I think that's awesome. Sure. two Inside baseball on this Years ago When Netflix was getting indescripted I remember there would be interviews with Tina Fey And they'd be like oh Tina. You've only made shows for NBC and now you're making this case it was Kimmy Schmidt Yeah, and they were like what are you learning? You know what it what insights you're getting and she's like they tell us nothing We know nothing about who's watching our show or what they think about it We just deliver it and we don't have to do 21 minutes anymore. We can go longer Mm-hmm. I don't think that's necessary necessarily the case anymore But I recently was having a conversation with the head of a studio who works with Netflix and his point was they remain Incredibly opaque about Algorithmic data about like who what when the thing that drives every decision they make is Next next next next that is their note and you can tell by the shows that they made Is will you end on a beat so undeniable that people watch the next thing the next one and it's interesting to I would I would put this out to our audience too If you're watching a show on a different service Maybe even one the trop shows weekly, but you start to feel that cadence Look in the trades and see who is bidding on it because there are examples out there of shows that were Suppressively developed for Netflix or for that model that have ended up on other services on Apple or whatever Yeah, they don't do it. Yeah, and I wonder if that changes your interaction and on the flip side of that I will say Tina Fey her most recent creation for Netflix is is the four seasons Oddly has lots of like grabby kind of like are they gonna break up moments where like most of the show is like people making kind of like Affectionate midfoney jokes about Thanksgiving dinner and then at the end. It's like but whose baby is this you know like Did you watch the second season? I did yeah, we don't talk about this stuff because there's like a kind of Television watching experience that I have with my wife where we watch half-hour comedies as a kind of Come down like a bedtime routine. Yeah, like it's like a oh, I it was weird in retrospect It was weird when you invited me over that time Like that sort of like let's settle this right right in the middle guys. Yeah, what's on tonight? I mean, I invite that's what the invite's about it truly. I have watched Into season two or four seasons, but I like you I'm like I Don't really have anything insightful to say you're different than me and that I don't think that you want To watch television to feel completely brain dead Like I think you're always like is this good and I'm like I don't really care You know like there is a kind of television that I will watch that is essentially like watching pain dry. Yeah And sometimes I just need to turn it off man. It's on a lot The brain. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think if I Know not real. I mean, I think that the equivalent for that for me is like ending then I with like my younger daughters really really obsessed with like Treasure hunting the last 10 years of the Simpsons Talk about this. So should be like there's a funny one in episode. I like that with us for you. Yeah, are you? Yeah, I'm like there's a cult in this one. Let's go It's nice though. We I feel like that there's some servicie elements we could be exploiting in this I'd ask you how to watch S for you Deplorable person Let's talk about how's the dragon I was very curious to know how you would feel I don't even do we talk about the last one together or was that gone? I think I referred to it in passing you were gone and then I was I think I was talked to Joe about it Yes, and I believe I use the words fucking interminable. How did you feel about this one even longer? Yeah It is a absolute struggle for me and I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it However, I do have three points of light because I do like to be positive Is there anything about this episode that you would like to highlight or shout out because the feeling that I dislike most That the show services mostly now is this like inexorable churn towards plot points And I feel the weight of characters interacting just to get to the next plot point with very little room for Brightness or light or even a feeling of Obviously nothing about the show is improv'd But any kind of spark as opposed to churning towards the gloom and doom that we are headed towards and I find that Just that is it a television experience that I do not I wouldn't get your hopes up about this being an upbeat show So I mean like obviously there's there's going to be probably a degree to which the the story telling and the tone of the show mirrors what its eventual conclusion is I Will say that the reason why I've been a little bit more forgiving or into these last couple of episodes than you is that I Am far more interested than this in this particular set of characters that have been kind of introduced over that maybe this season. Yeah especially I Wish they were the original lineup like I wish this had been three seasons with these people rather than three episodes as they've kind of broken out of the Targaryen Valarion. Yeah camp and started to bring in starcks and Different people coming to petition Reneira and like I'm like that guys interesting this person's interesting What's I kind of now wish that this entire show had been a Little bit more outside the walls of King's Landing listen and Um, I can see what they're trying to do. I think the Reneira like I in some ways I think what they're doing with the Reneira is more sure handed than what they did with Daenerys I don't know if it's a controversial statement, but yeah, absolutely depicting how someone starts to become undone Absolutely, and you know, that is in a positive note Because she has reclaimed the throne and has had not just a number of episodes But that one episode in particular that was the real life season standout. Yes We there's room to maneuver a performance towards something and and not indicate you know I think one of the nice things about My god at Emma Darcy Performance is that It's not telegraphing. It is quite present Almost the point of like you kind of feel like Damon being like you're still hung up on that Well, she's being suffocated by like the fact that every every conversation she has opens up a trap door of another problem. Yes. Yeah But yeah, I think that's a very smart observation about something that this show does is is able to take more interest in like Ormond and Darren the Stark wolves Kristen Cole and Gwayne specifically being like Gorilla army even Like random scenes where it's like Jane of Aaron, you know, Jane Aaron of the veil or whatever their name is like she's she's like kind of got something and Spark, but I think it would be cool that there's probably not enough plot to have done What's the veil been doing the entire time the show is going on well? Exactly and what you said there's not enough textual plot like yeah a creative enterprise that was differently enabled and empowered Could come up with a good story. Sure. You know to set there in the backdrop of something, but that's not the show So adaptation. I mean, what are you gonna do right? Well, there's some things you could do Yeah, but that is not the remit of the show and it I'm not gonna sit here for the day here sunshine and and Graham crackers. What's what's going on? What did you love? I see because Let me let me do let me just do one more like kidney punch before we get started just that I'm watching the show week to week and there are moments where I'm like Man, they're hanging some of these actors out to try and like to the dude who plays aamond and Like he when he got his scripts, you know, he's sitting in his trailer and he's putting on his wig or they're brushing out his long Locks, I think it's a wig and it's like we don't we don't know. I mean, I would imagine that's a wig It's probably a wig and really damage your hair bleaching it like that and people do things for their art. Yeah, Chris, you know And he's like what okay, what am I gonna do today? And it's just like Amond wakes up half nude screaming about dragons and hell in a haunted bed. He's like Yeah, I can I can see that or a guy. He's like all right go and he's like no, mother Like can we get a little more on the no it's like dude He's even Targaryen. He has to be managing a fantasy premier league team like I don't know what you want him to be doing It's not what I wanted to be do it. It's just like first of all we are fucking back in the haunted house again with the trees I am not a hair and hog it's so boring, but second it's just like grease ranken and Alice and she's a ranking here on my list Sorry, Gil ranken, but it's just like there are incredible performers elevating almost every scene And I think that if you just look at the bones of it, some of these scenes are pretty thankless in terms of the opportunities for actors to do what they do best and to And live in something so I wanted to shout out three performers on this show who I look forward to seeing Every time they're on the screen and one I have to highlight because it is a zero to hero arc Which is our guy Fabian Frankl. That's Kristen Cole. I'm not you know, you know, I'm if nothing else I'm accountable and How much of this is detective Grasso? 50% The cheaper house the dragon characters is for them to appear on episodes of task The key for house the dragon characters is for you to have seen them be good in other things and then look forward to seeing if they're able to just like Flash like a signs of life like come rescue me kind of thing Kristen Cole is a thankless part I felt for the first two years and because of that I don't think we thought much of the actor playing him, which was unfair as it turns out. - Speak for yourself. - Yeah. - You were a little bit with me until you heard him talk like he was from like an upper broom all. - I thought he was cool. - You thought he was cool? - I thought he was interesting and cool, yeah. - What was the coolest thing about Sir Christen Cole? I'll wait. Just like, just riff a little bit. - Be loyal. - Loyal guy. - He does work above his duties. - He goes the extra 10%. - He does. - This season, taking him out of the claustrophobic court and making him be a warrior in a Tim O'Brien novel, basically, works for him. I'm absolutely watching him through the eyes of seeing what he was capable of doing as another deeply misguided soldier in task. But I thought this episode in particular, like when his arc is make, kill your horse, help your friends with his leeches and then convince everyone to go on a suicide run. That's something an actor can work with. And I thought that he has like his, what I mistook for like lack of charisma in this episode, you realize this kind of a steady slow burn and I thought he's great. I enjoyed the scenes with Gwein because we love Freddy Fox. - Absolutely, they have the bet. I think among the best chemistry, like those two and then Larissa and Aegon. - Yeah, I agree. And it is a constant reminder. And again, I don't want to sit here as I do for weeks and years and seasons of these shows being like, oh, we know better 'cause we see something. - Well, you're obviously like, I have just for the crew, I have stipulated that we do not need to do this. And so, I think you're interested in the project and how they go. - And what I mean is, I've decided to, truly, I know I don't always sound like it, but I'm trying to look for the helpers, look to the helpers. And like, when you see good, interesting actors with chemistry paired off or so much of the season devoted to them, that is not a fluke. I think that the people making the show are empowered to do that because they are also interested in seeing that the people who can deliver can do. So I really like those scenes. Big Tom Glynkarni guy plays Aegon. Like, he is just even with only one ear and one kind of stumpy ear hole. One of the more charismatic actors on the show. - I've had season tickets since Rogue Heroes. - Yeah, and I've talked about this. I saw him in all my sons on the West End and he had a very, very brief appearance. He is the smallest part. And when he comes on, he just, he's just a lefty reliever coming in to throw in gas. - Just West End big-timed me. That's okay. - Well, I love theater and you like action shows, but that's what we make it work. What's your take on the Aegon storyline? - It's hard to talk about because I've read a head. So I like it. I like that they are pairing him with another person who is now deformed and is like, kind of like this is the way the world sees you and this is the way you can still get ahead. Each one of these plot lines, each one of these planks of the show at any given moment does not have enough going on for a full episode. - It's true. And the way that they've chosen to do it, which is cross-cutting across, you know, these say five story lines that they've got going. I think it's probably the way they can get to eight episodes of television and eight hours and 40 minutes or nine hours, how we're along the runtime lines of being. But to your point about who are you saying that maybe it was Aiman where you're just like, what am I doing today? It's like, they don't really do much different from episode to episode. I mean, for as much as I love the Renera episode, two episodes ago, she is pretty much in the same exact space. - It was a different way of looking it. - Yeah. And I like it. It's okay, you know, but there is not a, there is neither a propulsion because it's such a breakneck show. - Right. - Nor is there a concept of what it needs to be episodic to keep this thing kind of feeling light. And I am committed to this and I like it. And I kind of just want to see how they execute some of the stuff that I think is coming or some of the stuff I know is coming. But it's really weird. It's a very specific kind of writing that I don't know if it would work if there wasn't this sort of like carrot being dangled of like there's some big battles coming. - And I do think my feelings about, I mean, the assignment of the show is always gonna be challenging because it was the inverse of Game of Thrones and the challenge of the show is, what are you gonna do when the dragons aren't the main characters of an episode? - Yeah. - And I think that-- - I prefer it though. - I prefer that generally, but I think the show has struggled to answer that question successfully week to week over the season. - So you would rather have people be like, "Ah, Syrac's, my beautiful beast." You know, like she's going. - I would, I would pay to watch you do that longer. No, I'm not arguing for more dragons. I'm saying that House of the Dragon season three, despite being functionally better than season two in many, many ways and much more professionalized and capable of higher highs and honestly a higher floor as well, I think week to week, I think that it is suffering post Night of the Seven Kingdoms because-- - Oh, this is like dropping doomsday after the Odyssey. - It's exact, thank you. It's just more that like, Night of the Seven Kingdoms almost casually introduced us to different archetypes, different arcs and different emotions that we here to forage did not know were possible in Westeros. And House of the Dragon is still saddled with storylines like, I will teach the child to stab an innocent man in the heart, that will show him the way of the world. And I feel like that is a lesson that we have all learned repeatedly over the last 15 years on television and otherwise. And so, but that is what the show is. I mean, that is the world that they're existing in and I think it's trying to iterate honestly and in good faith. The last performance, you mentioned is Gail Rankin who is a really good actor from Perry Mason and from Glow and she's playing Alice, the Witch Queen of Heron Hall. And again, this might be like prior fandom. I just think she's a cool performer, but I, she has a little bit of twinkle in her eye like she does have some wit when all these people keep coming to attack her and she's lying to them that suggests some life for some plan. When the last group of raiders come, I think she kind of lets herself get taken capture captive to like entice Amand to regain his spirit, you know? Sometimes I'll be like, oh, I don't know what to say about this and then you jump in and I'm like, that's right. Because I say, I like to save my friend. It's like that human, was it the human giant sketch about like the most successful moving company in New York where like to move the piano, they put a child underneath it and then the mother shows up and goes, my child in this piano. Because there's no strength greater than a child in peril. That's what's going on here. Just real quick, that's a lannister that shows up with Aegon. - Yes. - And that's the lannister who was on the boat. - Yeah, it's a Thailand or Jason. I can't remember which one one got their head cut off, so he's definitively dead. We are getting into a dangerous period with this show where if they don't show you the body, it probably means the guy's still alive and they've done that twice the season. - Coral, they did with Coralice. - Or some ones with this guy, yeah. - Yeah. - You want habeas corpus? - I'm just saying like this is why the Stannis freaks from Game of Thrones are among us where they're just like, we never saw it, brother. - So this is actually, this came up the, this came up the other week, we were texting this. The Stannis Melisandre stuff is so interesting in retrospect. Because we, and I say we like the audience of Game of Thrones spent so much time with those characters. And in the new parlance of television, which is really about return on investment, it's like, well, what was that for? What was the point? And it's such an interesting and more contemporary framing that just invalidates 40, 50 years of television. - Sure. - Now you could make the case, I don't actually know this, but like, I think that the Stannis story was already ended in the books when they were telling it on screen. - So people were like, oh, I can't wait to see like how the, we know that he's not a real contender. - The film version of what I have been, yes. - So, but we also still enjoy the time spent on it. - Just like Red Wedding and Stephen Delane was really good in that part. But like the Melisandre thing was still questionable and then she shows up later. - Well, there's like the woman that never popped up in the show that was supposed to be maybe Caitlin Stark. - Oh, Lady Stoneheart? - Yeah, yeah, that's not Melisandre. - Can I say though, like in retrospect, my favorite thing of our, we had a real rich Throne's adventure. We were on television, we were talking about it. And still every time Jason or Mallory would be like, well, you know, they're not doing Lady Stoneheart. - Yeah. - I'd be like, can you just talk me through that again? And they were like, - It's not Lady Stoneheart level, but Nettles is supposed to be, you know, is in fire and blood. - Do you say you know? I do not. - Yes. - Sir, who is Nettles? - Nettles is basically being folded into Raina's storyline, I believe. - Who is, it's just another character who's like a dragon rider. - Greg Nettles? - Yeah. - Is he a picture? - Craig. - Craig Nettles. - And I think he was a utility in-fielder. - Yeah. - Like a kind of Jose O'Kendo type. - I think we both close our computers. No way of knowing. But no, but like the Lady Stoneheart thing, where I'd be like, oh my God, I'm still shaken up by the red wedding. Like that was one of the most intense things ever until we were on television. - I think it was the most surprising stone heart. - And they were like, Well, you know, Caitlin comes back, and I'm like, maybe it's good to do. an adaptation and cherry pick a little bit. But but anyway my you get what I'm saying in terms of our conversation about House of the Dragon because it is a history quote unquote because it is being made now there isn't room for these little narrative I don't even call them flights of fancy but it's like little exploratory runs you know what do they say when watching the world cup they're like oh a lovely little questioning run I think that's why I got a Larra storyline is so pleasant to watch because it has so many Thrones echoes because it feels like Brianna on the road with Jamie or whatever you know but it also feels again I could be very much mistaken about this and please you won't spoil it I know but like it does not feel connected in a way that it feels like it is moving in some towards something unexpected or new yeah that's probably not the case but I do just generally that's probably one of the causes of my lingering allergy to the show is that I just you just don't feel that spark of like people discovering something as writers or performers or whatever it's it's more claustrophobic so we got three more yeah yeah which is which is it feels like it's it's it's really a rich vein for us do you want to talk about the prisoner yeah set set this I I love it I love it when a 4 p.m. text comes with some good good ideas yeah so the prisoner is a show from 1967 and 1968 from England that has been a little bit of like a cult classic in the TV world for decades it's popped up here in their unphysical media there's some like a UK DVD there's a Blu-ray there was a box that I think arrow might have done it it's just one of those shows that if if we were a proper country we would probably be able to create a criterion channel for television and maybe that's a project you and I can do on some late summer dead week is like what we put in like on first 10 or 15 or 20 shows and it's not always the best but it you know these criterion does these physical media releases for films and obviously gives the films like a kind of unified aesthetic in terms of their graphic design and now has become this kind of almost like this label or brand that people are like I I blind by the thing on criterion because it means film excellence it means like true exploration of like what's great about the cinematic arts and we only have that for television and a lot of that is because television has largely been a function of selling advertising over the years and there's all these complicated rights issues and it's like a studio made it but sold it to a network that then offloaded it to this other network or streamer and this is why we wait around decades for homicide to show up on streaming or my so-called life still is an on streaming right like it's music rights right it's music rates so this other prisoner is a little bit different than say homicide or my so-called life it's more of a I would say acquired taste is also a cult classic you know and it is hugely influential it's a 17 episode run I believe of two seasons two series it was created by Patrick one series one series so 17 episodes one series Patrick McGuin who's the creator it's also the star and he worked with David Markstein who I believe directed a lot of it and it is essentially a sci-fi spy show it's the easiest way I can describe it and has been credited for having huge influence on x files on twin peaks on the Truman show on inception and on the matrix I would throw another one in there after watching it last night which is a good place yeah like intensely intensely so and I think it's like just a really cool thing for people to check out it was very funny last night I was watching a couple of episodes and I had initially sort of been like do you do into my wife I was like do you want to watch this this show the prisoner with me and she was like what's it about and I told her and she was like no no thanks she's like why don't you invite Andy over to blend down with that she heard it in the other room and she was like is this old timey and I was like no it's old yeah and she was like I thought it was new and they were doing old timey and I was like no I mean it's just the late 60s is that old timey now I guess yeah but the cutting style the art direction the music it's very much of its time yes but it's also I mean you can see Nolan editing patterns in the prisoner so it stands to reason that Nolan has twice gotten pretty close to remaking it as a film as has really Scott so this is a really interesting show the entire series is up on the criterion channel if you have it but I just thought we could talk a little bit about this as like a touchstone in modern television it's also worth noting the show was remade in 2009 for amc and mkellen jim kavisel was not particularly well regarded certainly not in in the shadow of its predecessor right I was really thrilled to do this because as someone who grew up reading tv guide for the articles this was a reference that dominated yeah I don't I don't think it's possible to overstate how influential not even the show itself because it was hard to watch for a number of decades but how influential the idea of the show was yeah that it was a hallmark of any even half-assed article name checking when the times tv has been bolder interesting and so when when peaks came out at the end of the 80s and early 90s and I was obsessed with it the prisoner was back in the conversation because mark frost was like there's no twin peaks of that the prisoner basically but what's interesting and I think that I'd seen clips maybe or it's sought something out or maybe it's on pbs but I definitely have never been able to sit down and watch it like I just did yesterday and kudos to criterion because it is on criterion it looks amazing it looks fantastic so that's really exciting too to see it in the way that it even better probably than it's ever been seen before but it was very interesting to see something that is so deeply influential to artistically minded and aesthetically minded art and television in particular but it is not a one-to-one in any sense there is nothing like because the twin peaks thing is it's David Lynch on television but then the idea that there was even a small safe space on television for something that didn't feel right you know that felt off yeah that felt confusing that didn't hold your hand you owe that to the prisoner I think above above anything else and the setup for the show is very very straightforward in a brilliant pre title sequence which they replay which is wordless they aspire resigns from MI6 or whatever and drives home to his place in Westminster in a very normal car in a very spy car and he goes into his flat and he's packing right is gassed and falls asleep and when he wakes up he is in a seaside village place unknown side of the iron curtain unknown side of reality unknown and in this village everything is accounted for it's a very good place like Andy mentioned like you know you go to the labor exchange and you get a job and you go do these things and there's like a kind of political class and there is senior citizens are taken care of there everybody is wearing these sort of brightly colored like kind of very geometric patterned capes and cloaks and socks and frocks but you know obviously this rough and tumble spy is like where am I what's going on who's in charge here how do I get out of here and I'll just say in the first episode you are introduced to the idea that not only is there constant surveillance and a lot of subterfuge going on in this village but a blobby white balloon floats over the village and is capable of sucking people into it and killing them yeah that was the part that engaged my nine year old the most oh yeah the the horror balloon yeah and grown men running from balloons yes I think she liked that but you know there's parts of it that are cut and feel like I don't know like late 60s mod culture films you know the other thing that I would say that you should watch just for reference is Austin Powers sure because there's there's something of that very very very very influenced I think probably by this Patrick Mcgood's performance especially in the first one too where he just like just yells at everyone yeah and it's so the other interesting thing about it is you know it is intentionally surreal and the surreality is both aesthetic and cultural like for the like mad carnaby street vibes but also very much about like surveillance and who do you work for and who sent you and what is truth and what do I owe and things that happen in the first few episodes that probably don't register as much to us and like a post google translate society sure but like someone speaks french and then someone responds in german and it's like where where do your legions lie who is responsible for this which is much more cold war coded but the other thing that I found really interesting is there is no this is this is what it gets into like James Joyce territory did you know that there is no agreed upon order to watch this series so the second episode the one that aired second the one the criterion calls episode two is called the Chimes of Big Ben was the fifth produced episode and instantly when you watch it you are once again discomforted and like unclear about what's going on for reasons that are intentional like that's the vibe of the show and one of the conceits of the show is that our main character number six is being bossed around and surveilled by the person who is nominally in charge number two yeah there is no number one number two just says like you could make this all go away if you told me why you resigned but in all 17 episodes, number two is played by a different guest star. Yes. So number two is always different. So you would, you could be forgiven if you're like a little bit confused. But then you keep watching episode two and Patrick McGuin's number six has a completely different personality that he did in the first episode. He's much funnier and he's much more charming and he's much more willing to sort of play along honestly more like a spy and it makes it a more pleasant watch. But it's also like, is this the fifth episode of the second? What is time? And is that on purpose? So there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole. Yeah. And I think it's a different era of making television where they maybe, maybe they got a note that was like, this guy needs to be nicer, you know, like this guy needs to be close to that. And not just a note. It's of an era when BBC or whoever put it, I think it was on BBC broadcast it. Because I don't think there were any other channels. Yeah. Was like, we're going to put this one on next. Yeah. Because that's what we're going to do. But it is, here's the thing that I really liked the most about it and I wish that there, I wish that you could take this piece and inject it into contemporary television. I have no idea, I've not done the deep research, I've not watched the whole series. I have no idea if Patrick McGuin and his collaborators launched the series knowing, quote, unquote, the answers. They had a plan, you know, like just like the vocabulary that sprung up around lost. What I do know is that there is such a swinging sense of fun and discovery and gamesmanship in a playful way, not like in an aggressive, I'm going to frustrate reddit way that is so welcome. Yeah. And one of the reasons I think that exists is because of the way that it's shot and scored. Because contemporary television is so dependent on and the same way movies are, I think, as well, like having the way that you film it, cut it, and most importantly, score it, indicate heavy important. Sure. Like this is ominous now. Well, there's also like a real emphasis in television, I think, on coverage and making sure, like you got that shot, that shot, that shot, and that way also if they want to meddle with it or if there's a supervising producer or whatever they can go and do their kind of show, whereas there, especially in this first episode, like I can't imagine there was that much coverage because everything is this like high-angled shot through like, yeah, you know what I mean? So it's just very, it's a very disorienting and pleasantly disorienting show. Apologies to our friends in England. It was not BBC. It was ITV. Oh, I didn't know they were around in the late sixties. A little bit independent. Yeah. But, but do you know what I mean though, the sense that like one of the things that contemporary shows do, and there's a reason why you do it, is like you want to give people enough rope to keep climbing. So you want them to know that they have a plan that there's something to be revealed. But there's a playfulness. This does actually segue from our House of the Dragon conversation that there is a playfulness possible in discovery that that for all the things the show does, and I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's like linear or like a good hang all the time. But there is a sense of playfulness that is kind of infectious if you can get into it. Like you don't need to be doing your homework necessarily. You just kind of have to go with it, and that's not a bad feeling to have with TV. It is not so common anymore. Before we get out of here. Can we do it? Can we talk about it? So, let's talk about Rachel Cusk. And that's why I've been waiting for an hour of this nonsense. Did you know that we were going to talk about this today? No, but I'm thrilled. This is a cool story anyway. That's so great. Okay. So, there is a new Rachel Cusk book, what's it called, Portrait of M? Life of M. Can we set up Rachel Cusk a little bit? Yeah. I think we better. Should we? Rachel Cusk is a very culty British novelist. Kai, have you read these books? Do we talk about this? I have not. No. Okay. I feel like we've asked you this before. I apologize. She's kind of known. Have you read any Rachel Kushner? I love Rachel Kushner. Okay. That's why she's still here. You know what? That's why she sticks around. Is she and I know? Kai's room for life. Kai and Sarah are really big. No. It's too dark for me. I have to. Kai and Sarah are big outline trilogy. Yeah. She has sort of risen to a certain kind of prominence for her incredibly chilly, reported auto fiction books. Yes. Her books are a vibe. Her books are an experience. This trilogy that starts with the outline basically follow her just like going to literary conferences and just sort of talking to people who like Greek men who take her out on their boats to tell them about their failed sons, you know, and she's just like, then she talked about her footed shit at her ex-husband is you're like more, more. So I know I'm selling it, but they are so there's such a vibe like there's an entire book that I read about how she and her then husband took their kids out of school to like live in Italy for a year. Uh-huh. And then they go to like a bunch of like they go to look at frescoes and abbies and she's like everything sucks. That's great. Can't sell it enough. So if I heard that kind of attitude, I can't imagine why. But what's incredible then is this is the this was reported this week is that her she has a she has many fans, you know, including Natalie, including Natalie Portman, who part of her Natalie Portman's public facing brand is like lifting up novelist and she likes books and who among us, you jazzle neck, all the greats do it. And the implication here is that Natalie Portman was like, let's hang out or like write about me. Yeah. I can't really get. So the reason why this is a little bit murky is because I apparently there are galleys of this book, which is a according to one article in a on a site called unheard and then aggregated by the usual trades is an unflattering portrait of Natalie Portman who could have guessed. And there are galleys of this book and there is an embargo on the reviews, I suppose. So it's like a very strange like social media discourse about it where people are like, I see like this site decided to break the embargo, but I will save my opinions for when like the real time comes. But I'm unclear as to whether Natalie Portman basically was like, yes, you can embed with me or if this is just about their on again, off again, relationships, they both live in Paris now and they both have this sort of mutual appreciation for each other or did until Rachel Cusk wrote what is apparently an unflattering novel about her. But I got to say something, man, shout out to Natalie Portman because this is why they don't fucking talk to us anymore. This is why like sure I'll make a pizza, but you can't spend more than 12 minutes with me, you know, because they don't want to be observed. They don't want their weird shit broadcast out into the world. So they want to get asked what their letter box for favorites are and then they keep it moving, you know, and like, and when you see any life in them and everybody's just like, wow, an iguana, you know, like, this is like how they get treated. So for her to be like, hmm, what where can we go here with this relationship? Why don't I have this like absolutely scalpel sharp, mean writer hang out with me and then write a novel about me is fucking cool, like, it may not work out well for her, but I admire her doing this. What's incredible is the analogy I was very French that she did this. It's very French. The analogy that I was thinking is like, if I was a big fan of like, in cooking, like boost off knives, I'm like, I love cooking with these knives. I really enjoy them. It's a good product that does what it's supposed to do and they're a part of my life every day. That's step from that to being like, I wonder what it would be like to cut myself with these knives. Yes. Yeah. Is it bridged you for her? Well, it would also just be like anything that we like and you watch. I like watching lioness, I don't want anything that happens that should happen to me. I know. Yeah. I will say, Apropos of the early, the jokes you were making, like when you texted me this, my brain auto corrected Kushner. I thought it was Rachel Kushner and then I was shocked because Rachel, Rachel Kushner from all of her public, I mean, her books are quite intellectual and can be tough, but like every interview, she's just like Kim Gordon and I went to get tacos in Echo Park and it was sick. Yeah. I feel like she would be a really cool hang. Yeah. And Kushner is walking right a book about me. I think it would be dope. I think it would be like, do you think which mode would she use, the women in prison mode or the like spy woman going to investigate caves and boredom mode, like which, which are you? Can't possibly comment at this time. This is just an exciting development. We'll be tracking it as, as, as maybe more official reviews come out. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out that it's like this was misinterpreted and it's not actually about Natalie Portman, whatever it's about. I just think of all the writers on the world, and you know, we just didn't know of all the writers on earth. There is no writer alive that I would trust more to turn directly to camera and say no, it's about that bitch. They're just like that is the one that you want also. Let me just say kudos to us because I do get a sense sometimes that there is like within our family of podcasts, like we do tend to cover some similar things like I imagine the doomsday trailer will filter its way through midnight boys and pick pick and you know how far everybody yeah. This is where you come for the discourse about Rachel Cusk, about Jill Doctoro, may disagree. They are well read literary figures, but I feel like I just feel like we are carving out a very specific lane for ourselves to enjoy and sometimes kaya where we. - I'm not seeing you this activated and animated in such a long time. - This is the most interesting story of the week. - This is your house of the dragon. - Thank you to Kai and Sarah for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday. - We gotta get to the agency. And it's really just more about finishing it. - I'm sorry. I was, I played Smashers to watch. You know, it just came up. I wanted to be done for today, but I think we did a good show either way. - I think we did a good show. And also we did a good World Cup. So I think it's okay. - See you guys on Thursday. (upbeat music)