Is A Gun Tax Constitutional?; Banning Handguns Is The Goal; Losing And Winning Gun Rights

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I'm Tom Greston, this is Gun Talk. We have hit a million followers on the Gun Talk Facebook page. If you're not followers over there, you need to do that. Honestly, it's where we post a lot of videos that might not make it out on YouTube. YouTube throttles or blocks or stops posting of some gun videos. Over on Facebook, we can get them all out. If you follow us, just look for Gun Talk on Facebook, you'll be able to see us over there. Sorry, sucking down the clarity and everything else, still got the allergies going. Spring is here and it's blooming, so I'll hit that call button occasionally, but I'll say with you, don't go anywhere. Thinking about what's been going on recently, and I think four states now have banned or in the process of banning clocks and clock type pistols. The idea is they're saying, well, these can be modified to go full auto. Of course, doing that is against the law. I mean, that would be a felony to do that. People do it. Now, are they being prosecuted? That's a whole different issue. Understand that when they pass a law that bans clocks and clock type pistols, those that have a cruciform trigger set up, it's about 65% of the gun sold on the market today. It's banning 65% of handguns. I mean, 65% of the handguns. I am reminded. And I want to bring this up because I haven't talked about this quite some time. I mean, there are people like Jerry Mitchell, who have been around a long time and can teach you how to shoot. He can teach you to revolve. There are people like Doug Cane who have been around a long time and can teach you how to shoot a pistol, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I'm a guy who's been around a long time and can give you perspective on the gun control movement, the gun ban movement. I was in high school debating on the debate team, the Dodd bill. The Dodd bill, once it was passed, became the gun control act of 1968. Even going further back from that, my dad was a gun writer and had access to all this file. So I had articles from back in the 40s and 50s about guns and gun control and gun vans. So with all that perspective, I want to tap into that and talk about what's going on today. This effort to ban glocks because supposedly they can be modified into full auto. The full auto thing is nothing to do with it. You got to understand where we started on this and why we are where we are today. I remember an article published in about mid 50s. The title of it was "Turn in that handgun, written by a former Scotland Yard official, police officer." The idea is that handguns are used to commit murders in America. We have way too many handguns. We have way too many murders. And the way we deal with crime and murders in America is to get rid of handguns. I know. Some of you are saying, "Well, that's not what I'm saying. That's ridiculous. What a silly idea." Trust me when I tell you that back then, the most popular polls were showing that some 60 to 70 percent of Americans, listen to this, 60 to 70 percent of Americans were in favor of a total ban on handguns. That's changed now. It's much, much lower, although there are some. And so that spawned groups such as the Coalition to Ban Handguns, which became the Coalition to Control Handguns because they found out that the term banning handguns didn't go over so well with the public. And then they changed that to, "Oh yeah, the Brady campaign. Uh-huh. That's still around. Brady group is still around." But they started off as the National Coalition to Ban Handguns. And then there was a shift, and this is important to follow. There was a shift because they figured out, "Oh, a lot of Americans own handguns. They don't want their guns banned. They don't want them to have their guns confiscated." So this is not really going the way we want. "Huh, what are we going to do?" "I know. We'll come up with a subset of guns. We'll create a category." We'll just create a category of guns. And make it sound like they're so bad we've got to ban them. Let's, oh, let's call them a Saul Weapons. There's no such thing. We know that. But the public doesn't know the difference. And they don't know the difference between full auto and semi auto. And we could think of advantage of that. I mean, this is not Tom Greshman talking. This is what the gunbanner said back then. It's what they did. So they create the term of Saul Weapon and they say, "We're going to work on demonizing that." And now we have weapons of war, military style, blah, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. As a way to make them scary sounding and now they've convinced a lot of the public that a Saul Weapon, which is a term that has no definition, of course, it was created, it's political term, it was created as they termed that they could use to ban some subset of guns. Understanding, while they're doing this, don't forget what was going on before. The goal was then and still is to ban all handguns. But they know they can't do that. But if they can establish that there are some guns that are just too dangerous, we just can't have the public honing these. And we all agree this common sense that assault weapons cannot be owned. They hold too many cartridges. They shoot too fast. They're used in murders, except of course rifles are used in less than 3% of the murders. And ARs are used in some subset smaller than all rifles. But here's the thing. And understand, this is the long view that they're taking here. And this will make sense I'll tie it together for you. If they can establish that there's such a thing as a good gun versus a bad gun. And if it's a bad gun, we can get rid of it. We can ban the bad guns because they're used to murder people. All the same at the same time they understand that these guns are used in fewer than 3% of the murders. If and when they could accomplish a ban on semi-autos, assault weapons if you will. Then they immediately turn around and say, wait, look, we just discovered handguns are actually used to commit far more murders than our rifles. Huh? Well, if we banned the semi-autos rifles and they were used in fewer than 3% of the murders, we really need to go after the guns that are used in most of the murders. And they will return to the handgun ban that they wanted ever since the '50s and formed groups to accomplish this and wanted to ban the handguns and figure it out at what them going to work so they shifted. That's what's really going on. So now we have four states that have banned clocks and glock style pistols. Now that's being challenged in the courts. And the question, under Heller and Bruin, where the Supreme Court said, you cannot ban guns that are in common use for lawful purposes. Well, these are common guns and are clearly being used for lawful purposes. So the question will be, will the courts actually honor Bruin and Heller and stop these states from banning these commonly owned guns? I don't know how that's going to happen. ago, I mean, I think we're going to prevail, but I'm currently reading the book, Alito, written by Molly Hemingway. I highly recommend it. She's a very good writer. And you never know what the courts are going to do. We had almost 50 years of the Supreme Court acting as a super legislature where they said, you know, we're just going to accomplish the things that the legislature, the Congress won't do because it needs to be done because the country needs it, whether or not it's mentioned in the Constitution, we're just going to make it up. And they did. Now, we're past that to a large extent. We have a better Supreme Court, but you never know what you're going to get out of them. So that's what's going on there. Just kind of bringing you up to speed of what's going on. The other takeaway from all of this is simple. And that is, once you decide you're going to become a Second Amendment warrior, it is a lifetime enlistment. You are here for the duration because it will never go away. They will never stop trying to ban guns. And when I say ban guns, I mean all guns, rifles, shotguns, handguns, all of them. We had one of the guys from Tom Diaz, his name, with the Violence and Policy Center early on in gun talk, in gun talk radio, way, way, way long time ago. And I ask him, if you could be king for a day, you could wave your magic wand, get anything done, what would you want? He said, well, I'd get rid of all the guns. I said, well, I'm thinking, wow, he said it out loud. How about that? I said, well, what about the police? He said, ah, once we get rid of all the guns, the police won't need theirs either. There you have it. That is where they are. That's where their thinking is. Once we get rid of all the guns, the police won't need theirs and will all be better off. Of course, the criminals will, of course, obey the laws because that's what criminals do, right? Yeah, right. So that's where we are today. And I want to give that perspective. They have never given up on the idea of banning handguns. They just realized they weren't going to be able to get it done then. They have gone to a different way of approaching it. And if it's a 30 year or a 50 year plan, that's okay with them because they're there for the duration and we have to be too simple as that. All right, 866 talk gun or Tom talk gun, that'll get you in here. I'm Tom Gresham. Be right back. When it comes to carry guns, size matters, but so does performance. The Smith and Wesson bodyguard 2.0 delivers both. It's slim, ergonomic and built to handle recoil like a champ. The upgraded slide serrations mean you can rack it fast, even under pressure. 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Hey Joe, thank you for your patience. You have the floor. Hey Tom, when I listen to gun talk every week, one of the other things I learned from the infamely fine, the advanced is how to store my gun a lot, unloading and away from ammo. So that's a joke. [Laughter] So that's not what I called about. What I called about was to tell you that it started shooting right in life, but I did a good, good training. Even so, I learned the four rules of gun safety early on. That seems to be kind of a frame here on the program today, so I just thought I could take a couple of experiences I had. Sure. And they're not something I'm proud of. It's actually great embarrassing, but I would encourage people that if you will follow the Ford gun rules, you can actually sometimes break one from the other two or three will catch you and keep you safe. That's what happened. No times, I'm going to head to in 20 years, but each time I was talking to my range buddies and thinking I was unloading the pistol and let the slide go forward, pull the trigger with it pointing at the ground and it goes off and it's like, "That was embarrassing." But thank goodness, none the worse for it. So just a landing experience, not be talking and distracted when I'm unloading and unloading my weapon. So rule number two, save you, never point your gun to anything you're not willing to destroy. That's right. Yep. Each time I had it in a safe direction and so that rule saved me, you know, like I said, I kind of, an ego-brews, but that's a minor thing. You know, you make a good point is that when we're, I think about handling guns the way I think about flying airplanes. When you're there, you've got to be there mentally. All there and there's nothing else. And if you're distracted, you need to stop, figure out what's going on and start over again. Because trying to handle a gun while you're having a different conversation with somebody else that you're not really thinking about it, as you point out, that's a recipe for disaster. Yep. I know it for real. Yep. So I'm glad nobody got hurt. Now, how else have the four rules helped you out? Well, that's the first thing that kept me from injuring myself or someone else. They've helped me to be, they've helped me to teach others how to be safe and not be scared of guns, rather the four rules, and follow them as seriously, you know, obsessive compulsively. And so teaching that to other people, I've seen, in fact, I had a couple of young ladies out on the range of the day and, you know, just helped them to become more confident, just always learn the four rules and practice them. And you don't have to be scared of guns. Yeah, it's a great point. The thing is, I know people sometimes want to add rules to it. No, no, no, no. The four rules work just fine. We don't need any more. And they're short enough and easy enough to remember to memorize. I mean, I've seen videos of young kids reciting the four rules of gun safety. So, hey Joe, thank you for the call. Appreciate that. Yeah, it's real simple. You can get them printed up. You should, I have, I guess two of the metal signs they sell over it at gun sight with four rules on them. You've got one put up above my reloading bench. Can't remember where I have the other one, but they're good to put up at different places. Just as reminders, then a lot of ranges have the four rules put up. Usually in the original form, sometimes they'll make a change, a little tweak here and there, and that's okay. But the four rules are basic if you missed them. Let me give them to you again, because I do have a memorized number one. All guns are always loaded. What does that mean? Well, clearly we know they're not always loaded because we just unloaded one, but we treated it as though it's loaded. We treat every gun as though it's loaded, period parade rest, always period. That means just no exceptions. We treat all guns as though they are loaded. Fair enough. Okay. Number two, never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to do. destroy. That would be your hand or knee, your foot, your dog, a wall when there's somebody on the other side of the wall that you would want to shoot. Oh yeah because both go through walls really easily. So where are you pointing your gun? And as Joe said, it's got to be like crazy compulsive about it. Just like always, always always. I'm careful about where my muscle was pointed. Number three, don't put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on the target. If your gun is pointed down range and sights are on the target and you touch the trigger and it goes off and you didn't mean for it to, it could be a little embarrassing but no way it's going to get shot. The shot went down range. So keep your finger off the cotton picking trigger. Okay and doesn't mean like with a handgun where you're ladies alongside the trigger guard. No, stick it up there alongside the slide. If you place it over the top of the trigger guard eventually something's going to happen. You're going to get startled. Something that finger is going to slide into the trigger guard and hit the trigger and the gun is going to make a really loud noise. So if you keep your finger up along the slide then you're not going to do that. So that's number three. Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target. Number four is know your target and what's behind it. Identify your target and you may be thinking well I'm in a range. What's the big deal? No, no, no, no, the four wheels of gun safety apply everywhere. The four wheels of gun safety actually were created for gun fighting. We use them everywhere else because they work. But in a gun fight or self-defense situation, identifying your target is critical and knowing what's behind it is critical. You got a bad guy and you need to shoot the bad guy but you got a bus full of non-s and orphans behind the bad guy. You can't shoot at him. You must do something different whether you're moving to the side to get a different angle. So now you've opened up the background or you've moved four words so you can drop down to a knee and shoot upward so that the bullet's not going to go toward this school bus full of non-s and orphans. Stuff you got to think about. What would I do if is there brick wall back there? Yeah that'll work. Is there just a store back there with people in it? Now that's not gonna work. I don't like that background. I don't want to be flinging bullets back there. I'm not 100% that I'm gonna hit that bad guy with every shot because he may be moving around. Four rules of gun safety. Give it up to memory. Recite them often. Teach them to new these. They're really worth what? Big color. Bigger savings. Sure when William Super Sale is here. Get 40% off paints and stains. June 5th through the 11th with prices starting at 3089. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior we've got the colors to bring your vision to life and with delivery getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin William Store. Retail sales only some exclusions apply. See store for details delivery available on qualifying orders. Alright we're back. Let me get to this. Earlier in the week I set off a little bit of a firestorm on X you know formerly Twitter when I posted something that really got people stirred up. Now look I have been known to be guilty about saying something just to get people stirred up and watch the reaction. I got a lot of reaction to this and I want to throw it out there for discussion and your reaction. Here's the background before I run this interview. For almost a hundred years the Pitman Robertson Act has placed a tax on firearms and ammunition. 11% on long guns and ammunition 2% on handguns. That's an excise tax is paid by the manufacturers and obviously like all taxes it just gets built into the price that we pay and that is gone to fund a lot of very good things. However the question now is is a tax on guns constitutional. Can you tax a second amendment right? And further it gets complicated because evidently some states now are saying oh or there's an excise tax on the federal level we'll apply another excise tax on guns and ammo on the state level and so instead of being a tax that used to build ranges and to preserve wildlife and do some good things it now looks like it's starting to become punitive. So tell you what here's an interview I did this week and then after that let's have the conversation and you tell me what you think about the idea of there being a federal tax on firearms and ammunition. Get ready you can give me a call at 866 talk gun or Tom talk gun now here's that conversation I had earlier in the week. Larry Keane from the National Student Sports Foundation Larry I will introduce you but you got so many titles now senior vice president and political counsel and I don't know what all you're doing these days. The guy who puts the garbage out on one. How long have you been at NSSF? I just passed 26 years. Wow man you really been in the National Student Sports Foundation is the trade association for the firearms industry you know whether you're making guns or selling guns or being distributor or whatever you basically represent all of them and they're something else that has happened over the last five ten years is much more involved in legislation and litigation as it relates to the consumers as well on the second amendment front. Absolutely I'm you know the thing I'm most proud about my 26 years as the staff is the growth of our government relations capacity or public affairs or research or legal work in protecting second amendment rights and challenging vans on rifles the magazines etc. So you know NSSF has changed considerably for the good you know my 26 years. No doubt and you know people are seeing okay NSSF is involved in number of the lawsuits and that's a visible but you also do things that are kind of not as visible like working with Congress and taking meetings and or with ATF people you know they're lambasting the ATF you but you're working with those folks and actually I'm just gonna blow your cover here behind a lot of the changes that we just saw announced by Todd Blitz. Well thank you Tom I mean we pride ourselves on having a working relationship with the regulators there's no currency in you know a scorched earth approach you have to make your argument in your case you can disagree strenuously but you can do that in our professional matter and we do that all the time and we have in the past soon ATF but I will say that you know the relationship with the administration DOJ and ATF has never been better particularly coming off of the Biden administration it was very very content she's very hostile I mean you know the former president referred to the industry as quote the enemy close quotes. So there's a new sheriff in town of this. Yeah let's talk about one other thing before I want to get to the subject we won't talk about but for many many many years you know this we watch this you get and I get some of this is fun raising it's marketing it's we're the only no compromise group I hear all the time and no compromise no compromising you and I know from doing this for decades is look there's compromise which means I give up but that's not what we're doing if you say okay I'm gonna fight hard and I can only get 50% of what I want today I'll take the 50% that's not compromise isn't not in my mind look politics is often called the art of compromise and you can achieve policy objectives you may not get everything you want all at once but you take crown and you come back and you fight for more the next day that's the way you have to approach this if you demand perfection then you you went perfection to the enemy of the good and you end up with nothing and so it's better to take crown and come back and you know and when the horror is the other side says will will occur if the policy is adopted doesn't happen you go back and you argue for more and you argue for additional dropping never stitches and more freedoms and and protections for the second amendment so compromise is not surrender compromises making progress exactly it makes no sense to say I'm not gonna take what I can get today because I can't get it all that's just childish NIE frankly and we unfortunately see that recurring basis where your demands are made that are just not feasible untenable and so I would rather achieve something constructive you know and that doesn't mean you're surrendering your principles but but you do understand it Folks who are on the outside, not on the inside. You're working with this all the time and you're looking at and say, okay, we can get this done now, that other thing, we're not gonna get it all today, or even this year, we're gonna have to come back. But if you're on the outside, you don't know the conversation, you're saying, well, why couldn't we just do it, man? Just make it happen. - Yeah, I mean, I certainly appreciate the frustration people have that Congress doesn't act fast enough and it's a frustration I personally share at times. But it's not, Congress is not designed to move quickly. Particularly the Senate, it's designed to be a check on the motions of the House, if you read history and the federal's paper and things like that. So that's what democracy is about, we debate ideas and hopefully the better argument wins, but you gotta play the long game. Is achievable at the time and come back and fight another day. - All right, as much as I hate taxes, all taxes, the excise tax on guns and ammo, it seems like right now there's an effort to say, well, that's a tax on guns is unconstitutional or we shouldn't have it or something. And I just wanna say, we'll get back up. You need to understand about the Pitman Robertson Act. Can you take it from there? - Sure, I mean, there's a very good argument that tax is paid by consumers on the exercise of the second amendment is problematic and they very well be unconstitutional. But what people don't understand is that the Pitman Robertson excise tax, that tax which is paid by manufacturing is not by the consumer, has been in existence since around 1913 I believe. In 1936, 37, the Pitman Robertson Act was adopted and it was the industry and conservation groups that requested that this tax be applied to wildlife conservation because at the time, wildlife was struggling, by the way, in the States. And we've seen tremendous gains on that front since the Pitman Robertson Act. But it's important to understand that the taxes paid by manufacturers and employers, 11% have for long runs and ammunition and 10% for handguns. And we know what that money goes towards. It is the primary source of conservation funding. It's distributed, it's collected by Treasury, distributed by US Fish and Wildlife Service to the States. And that's the primary source of conservation funding in the United States. It's really not correct to say that the tax is paid by the consumer. Any more than you would say the consumer pays the electric bill or the insurance or the labor. It gets paid to the overall price is the good. And I don't think anyone would say that charging and the manufacturer for electricity infringes upon the second amendment, right? So it's not paid by the consumer directly. It's in the indirect sense, the consumer pays for electricity and labor, like they do for any product. But it's paid to the cost of the product. And it's a tax that the industry asked, you know, used for wildlife conservation. The industry and hunters and gun owners all asked for this tax to be used. And am I right that even if you're not a hunter, you still get benefit because a lot of this money is used to build public shooting ranges. That's correct. And increasingly, and that's something NSC stuff has been working on a lot the last few years, since that the money, it pays for hunter education. And now there have been legislation that NSC staff is supporting and got passed it. We'll help for building public shooting ranges, rising tide, so it's all boats, people that never go hunting, but are target shooters. They get an ROI on their investment. And so there's more opportunity for public shooting. And that's been a really important thing we've been working on the last couple of years. Imagine what would happen if the tax went away. The industry and hunters would lose their seed at the table to anti-hunting groups, and to preservationists, not conservationists, there's a distinction there. Yes. Anti-hunting groups, animal rights groups, would hold sway. And so we're very, that would not be good for the industry. Wouldn't be good for gun owners as well. Because we can say, hey, we're paying for this. We didn't demand and deserve a seed at the table. Because, and we're looking at, I don't know what the number is. Now it's probably in the five to $6 million a day. It's significant. Again, it is the primary source of conservation funding in the United States, increasingly being used to build shooting ranges. I mean, now every forest and VLM section has got to work with local stakeholders to build a shooting range in the forest or in the VLM district. So that's an important development. The Public Marks and Chip Training and Support Act at NSSF Champion helps to create more public shooting opportunity, not just hunting. And again, it's also where funding comes from for 100 education glasses. I just had a thought we were talking. Because we've both been at this long enough, we know how the other side works. If they could eliminate the tax on guns, it's a bit of an robber's own fee. And say, OK, you're not paying any money into this. I would offer that that offers them a door to come back in and say, you know, the public doesn't need to be paying for shooting ranges. And the public doesn't need to be paying for lands where people hunt. Because we don't support hunting. And we don't support shooting. And let's just shut all of that down. And that gives them a huge door to come through. Absolutely. You know, the industry hunters, gun hunters, and lose their seed at the table. I hadn't thought of that until we had the conversation with Larry. And look, I am conflicted on this particular one. I like the benefits we get out of the Pitman Robertson funds. It funds 100 safety education. It's basically saved wildlife in America. If you go look at the population numbers of elk, deer, turkeys in 1930, the '20s and '30s, they were at an all-time low. And the money that came from Pitman Robertson funds, the tax on guns and ammo, saved America's wildlife. So it did great things. And of course, we're using it also to build shooting ranges. At the same time, I have a basic core problem with the tax on a second amendment right. So that's kind of where I am at the moment. But Larry made a good point. He says, you know, if we aren't paying the money, if it just comes from general funds somewhere, then we don't have a seed at the table. And then Washington speak, that means we don't have any say in how the money is used. And the gun banners, the anti-hunter's command and say, oh, yeah. Hunters aren't paying for this anymore. Gun owners aren't paying for this anymore. All this federal land where we've gotten it opened up through the years for hunting and for shooting, we should stop hunting on National Forest. We should stop shooting on BLM property. There's no reason for that. And they not only can, but they would do that. And we could be ignored because we're just part of the general population. And we're not contributing the money. Is that worth having a tax on guns? I don't know. I would love to get your take on this. I know there are people who are over on X who are having very strong opinions about this. I'd love to have them come away in here. Although I think sometimes they just love the anonymity of using a screen name and being able to call people names and not be responsible for their actions or what they say. There's a lot of that on the internet. If someone told me recently, he says, hey, one of the rules on X is don't read the comments to your post. Just post it, move on. Yeah, but I like having a conversation. That's why I like doing gun talk. Having this conversation where you can call in, and you tell me what you think. And you may say, hey, Tom, you're just wrong. You're wrong on taxing a second and a right. Fine. Well, that's have the conversation. But you got to call in for us to have that conversation. 866 talk gun or Tom talk gun will get you in here. So the Pippin Robert-- and look, if you're a hunter safety instructor, you know what I'm talking about. You know that PR funds have covered that completely. You know that that money is being used for a lot of good things. And I guess from a practical standpoint, I would say, all right, if we said, all right, we can't tax a second amendment. We can't tax guns because that impacts second amendment. OK, I'm open to suggestions. Where are we going to get the money? And is there a way for us to do it so that we, gun owners and hunters, continue to have a say in how the money is used to we can keep public lands open for hunting and public lands open for shooting and building more shooting ranges and helping to promote the shooting sports? I don't know. But look, we got a lot of interesting, smart, creative people. people out there who can come up with ideas, so I'm open to suggestions. And like I say, I can argue it both ways. I completely admit I'm conflicted on the thing. And any given moment I'll switch sides on you, so there you go. I'm Tom Grayson, this is Gun Talk. If you got a comment about this, a thought, maybe you could help me understand it better. Give me a call. We'll be right back. (upbeat music) - With real world experience, Range Ready delivers basic and advanced classes for pistol and rifle. We also offer a ladies only handgun course. - More American women than ever are choosing firearms for self-protection. Female gun ownership has climbed 177% since 1999. With roughly one in four women now owning a gun. Since 2019, 68% of new female buyer site protection as their main reason. One in four women has survived severe physical violence from an intimate partner. Many have learned that police often arrive too late. Compact concealable handguns top their shopping lists. Women specific training courses sell out within hours and ranges report female attendance doubling in many states with rational carry laws. Fire on companies now market directly to women, showing them as confident, capable guardians rather than side kicks. Millions of women are rejecting helplessness and embracing armed self-reliance as the most reliable insurance policy in an uncertain world. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - All right, let's go straight to the phone, this Greg's in the Eaglet Point, Oregon online one. Oh, Greg, you've made it into gun talk. Talk to me. - Hi, this is my first time calling, so I'm kind of nervous, but then I was 18, I'm 67 now, but when I was 18, I did, I transgressed and did an on-law of re and, but I'm still being punished, I haven't had my rights restored. I'm not sure if that's what you probably have talked about it, but I just haven't been fortunate enough to catch that show or doing that. - Well, that's changing, there's about like 25 years ago, the Democrats went in and yanked the money out of the budget where people could go and get their rights restored, applied to the ATF and get their rights restored. And so they didn't want convicted felons from being able to own guns ever for the rest of their lives. And of course, I'm of the opinion that, hey, you served your time or you paid your punishment, it should be over and you should have all your rights back. Well, we're working to get that back under Trump, the Department of Justice and ATF are working on rights restoration, legislation, to try to get that done. They're doing it right now in a case by case basis, a bit more, but it's slow and it's a little bit cumbersome. And honestly, a little bit troublesome. I was kind of hoping they would be moving faster. And I know they're busy, but we're working on it. And that's not much consolation to you. I know that you have waited a half a century trying to get your rights back. But that's all I can tell you is I know it's being worked on and there are people who are talking about it. But as of right now, I don't know where we are. I tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna work on getting somebody from the federal government on the show or somebody who knows about it anyway, to come on in the next week or so and we can discuss it and maybe we'll get an update on that. I hope you'll be able to listen in and we can get you some information on that, okay? - Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you for your show. I appreciate it very much. - Thanks, Craig. I appreciate to call. Here's a question for you. And this kind of goes to the whole internet conversation. If I'm more pure than you are, is the question is this, is winning incrementally the same as compromise? Because you got some people who say, you know, we didn't win everything, so that was a compromise. So they consider that to be a loss. And I've always been of the opinion that if you can win half of it and then come back for more later, that's a win. And yes, sometimes it's really disappointing to not be able to win at all. But the people who work in Congress or legislature will tell you, look, sometimes you're just not going to win at all. It's not on the cards. It's not on the table. It's not gonna happen. No matter what you do, no matter how righteous you think your cause is, today, this week, this year, it's not going to happen. But we can get you some of it. So the question is, is it compromising, is it caving, is it surrendering, to take part of what you want, with the idea of coming back and trying to get more of it later? And the reason I bring it up is because you got, I call it the chest thumpers, the holier than that, more pure than you are. We're the only true, no compromise, that's a minimum group. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, get it, give me a break. But it does raise money, it raises funds by saying we're the no compromise group. Yeah, okay, sure. When you don't compromise, you generally don't win anything. But man, I'll take 50% this year, 50% of what's left next year, 50% of what's left after that next year, you see where we're going, right? We call that winning. We lost a lot of our gun rights incrementally over many, many years. We're not gonna get them all back instantly. We're getting them back past. And frankly, I'm frustrated like everybody else, because I want it right now, 'cause I know we have this narrow window during the Trump era. When the Democrats take over again, and they will, they will try to undo as much of this as possible. So I want to push this thing as far as we can to when the rubber band snaps back, it doesn't come all the way back to where we were. Maybe it comes halfway back. We're back to that 50% thing again. I'm Tom Gresham, this is Gun Talk.