Investigating Issues at the Intersection of People, Policy, and Marine and Coastal Environments - Dr. Ana Spalding

This is episode 840 of the People Behind the Science podcast, and I'm your host, Dr. Marie McNeely. Today, we are excited to be resharing our interview with our guest, Dr. Anna Spalding. Lissner's Anna is a social scientist who works in marine and coastal policy. Her research is focused on the intersections of people, the environment, and policies. She's interested in understanding people's perceptions of the ocean and coast, policy and management frameworks surrounding resource use in these areas, and the major cares, concerns, and conflicts that people have related to coastal areas. And in this episode, Anna shares some wonderful stories about her life and research, so sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode of People Behind the Science. Every day, discoveries are made that will change our understanding of the world around us. Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring you the brilliant minds who are making these discoveries, so they can share their incredible stories and take you on an amazing journey. Welcome to People Behind the Science. Hello, everyone, and welcome to People Behind the Science. Today, I am thrilled to be speaking with our guest researcher, Dr. Anna Spalding. So, Anna, welcome to the show today. How are you? I'm doing well, Marie, thank you. Well, we are excited to have you with us, and we're looking forward to learning more about you in your work. But before we go into the interview questions, let me first start by telling our listeners just a little bit about your background. So, listeners, Anna is Assistant Professor of Marine and Coastal Policy and Affiliate Faculty at the Pacific Marine Energy Center at Oregon State University. She is also a Research Associate at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama, as well as at the Coiba Research Station in Panama, and received her bachelor's degree in economics and international studies from the University of Richmond, her master's degree in marine affairs and policy from the Rosensteel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, and her PhD in Environmental Studies from the University of California, Santa Cruz. Afterwards, Anna conducted post-doctoral research at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama before joining the faculty there at Oregon State University. And in our interview today, Anna, we're looking forward to learning more about you as a scientist, but also more about your life outside of work. So, can you start by telling us what you like to do in your free time? Well, I try to have as much fun and possible work life balance as important. I recently joined the Corvallis Rowing Club. So, I started rowing as a master's rowing club here in town. I used to row in college, so it's probably about 20 years since I had been in an eight on the water, and it has been really, really amazing and fun and inspiring to see the range of ages and people that are part of this club. So, that's what I try to do three times a week at least. And now in the winter, the club continues its activities, but we do mostly are irking sort of on a rowing machine in a barn in the evenings and then Sunday mornings are our special rowing time on the water, which is really fun. Oh, that's awesome. Was it hard to get back into it after nearly 20 years? It was, yeah. I think what was hardest about it was thinking that I could still do the same things I did 20 years ago. And don't only that, the master's club has quite a high average age. So, again, being overly confident that on the younger end of that age range, I would do okay when just being completely smoked by people a lot older than me. And it's inspiring to see that it's a sport that people can continue to do for such a long time and do it competitively. I love it. Well, it's been great to hear about one of your passions outside of the work that you do, but I'd love to talk about your science next. So, Anna, how do you describe your work to people who aren't familiar with your field? I was thinking about this in terms of my kids. I have two young kids. And their response to this is, oh, you could people advice. So, because I'm a social scientist, I specifically work in policy. It's really hard to explain that to folks that aren't as familiar. So, I think even when I say, you know, I work with people. I work with interrelationship between people and the environment. And that could be exploring people's perceptions of the ocean in the coast, or it could be exploring the policies and management frameworks related to resource use and potential conflicts around that. People still tend to go to the default, but oh, she's a marine biologist. So, I work really hard to try to communicate effectively that what I do is I work with people. So, my unit of analysis can be an individual. It can be a community. It can be a policy and agency. But I basically start out my question of any research with what is the human dimension of X? So, what are people's concerns? What do people care about how going more effectively secure human well-being as well? Instead of effective policy processes for resource management and coastal areas? Wonderful, Anna. I'm excited to further explore this different angle of marine science. Like you said, it's not marine biology. You're working with the people. You're working with the relationships. And I think that's so cool. So, later in our interview, we'll discuss some of your projects. But I'd like to talk first about what motivates you. You're working on some really tough questions in the science that you do. And I think as a scientist in general, it can be hard to be motivated every single day. So, it helps to have quotes saying phrases and forces that keep you going. So, do you have some favorites you can share with us? I don't really work with quotes as my husband would point out all the time. I get them wrong, so I'd rather not have a specific quote. It's more of a guiding principle. And that guiding principle is always to give space to different voices. And this comes from my disciplinary tradition of political ecology, where there are always voices that are not heard in the broader narrative or discourse around a particular issue. So, my guiding principle, my quote, is to try to give a platform to those voices that are not typically represented in our society. Absolutely. Well, I think that is an important thing to keep in mind as you go through your day as a scientist, particularly in the area that you do, but also in life in general. So, we talked about one of these principles that guides you and motivates you. But I'd really like to talk about some of the people as well who might have had an impact on you and your career. So, when you think back over the course of your career in your life, Ana, are there particular people that come to mind as role models and mentors? And people who just had a big impact? Absolutely. So, I usually start presentations about myself as a social scientist, we talk a lot about positionality. So, you know, where I came from, what my interests were. And the first picture, which I know in a podcast that's hard to convey, is me, too, sitting on a horse with my mother in the field. So, I would have to say that my mom was one of the first people that really inspired me as a role model thinking you can combine work and family. You can be really curious about communities and generous about telling their stories and integrating them into policy and management narratives. And you can do that in an episodic way. So, again, starting it, too, I was in the field. Community work with my mom, so I would say she's the first one. And in terms of my career and academia, it is really hard. I have spoken to different people. There's a woman, she's in California, and she's a C. Grant Cary Pomeroy, who was really helpful in talking to me about the path for social science in the marine world. Similarly, people in Panama, Odysine Hood, who's been a fantastic mentor. She is director of a scientific administration at the Smithsonian and has just been unconditional support and guidance for what it really means to be a woman in science. And here at OSU, similarly, I'm surrounded by these amazing women that really recognize the importance of social science as it relates to marine and coastal areas. So it's a combination of people that have inspired me to carve this path. It is not a clear path at this point. So let's dig in a little deeper and talk about that path. Perhaps starting at the very beginning, I love this picture that you painted of yourself as a two-year-old on a horse out there in the world. So what then sparks your interest in science specifically? So to add to that picture, I'm from Panama. I was born and raised in Panama. So that picture also tried to place it in an Indigenous community in the mountains of Panama. And what started my journey as a scientist was just real curiosity for the problems of the developing world. Why were we where we were? It was a time when I was growing up in a time of a lot of political turmoil, right? In Panama in the '80s, there was a lot of turmoil. And I was young but keenly aware that it didn't have to be that way. And I think opening up markets and opening up to capitalism, if you will, at that point in the early '90s, when I went to college and I was studying economics, was just like, wow, there's this whole model that economists and other political scientists have designed for the entire developing world. And I just didn't make any sense to me that that model would work for every country, right? I felt the sense of we are unique, we're different. There's a cultural differences. There are all these nuances to these countries. How can one model work for everybody? So I think that contrast between my experiences growing up and then my experiences in college as an economist. And I was more on the liberal art side of economics of looking at women and gender and economics, development and economics, things like that. And I spent a year studying abroad in Argentina. And that just really opened my mind completely to the possibilities of political participation and political activism, again, focusing on the issues of development, and something sparked in me that I'm interested in thinking, well, if these models are claiming that developing countries are dependent on natural resources, how do we then understand those natural resources? And in particular, I just figured why not marine and coastal resources? So I then took a trip to focus the photo of the islands on the Caribbean side of Panama on the border with Costa Rica. And this is between my undergrad and my masters. And just something in me clicked. I remember being on the boat on the way out to the islands thinking, this is it. This is how I link my interest in the environment with my interest in development and with my interest in people. That was in 1999, I believe. So to think that now, I was 28 years later, I've actually faculty and marine and coastal policy is just super exciting. To see that transition from something that clicked in my mind to then a few years later, getting my masters, then my PhD, and now actually doing that work. I notice the intentionality of it that I don't think I felt at the time. That makes any sense. Absolutely. I think the hindsight helps tell a better story sometimes. Oh, absolutely. But I kind of know when those moments clicked, for sure. I was a combination of lived experiences, wanting to spend more time by the ocean because I know what it did to me, how it made me feel, and realizing this is just a tiny part of what coastal communities must feel on a daily basis. Absolutely. And I know we mentioned in our introduction that you did your postdoc, then, at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute there in Panama, how did you get connected with the organization and decided to do a postdoc there? Well, again, as I mentioned earlier, I grew up in Panama and the Smithsonian Stry, as we call it, has been there for over 100 years. So growing up, it was one of the few sources at the time of scientific research and intellectual discovery. So I always had a relationship with the research and the kinds of questions they were asking with, sort of growing up more and up curiosity around science in general. And then during my PhD work, I spent about three years based at the Smithsonian Station out in Boca-Saltoto. So the same place that I had been that sort of created that link, that spark in my mind, I spent about three years based there doing my PhD dissertation work. So I had already established the relationship as a pre-doctoral fellow in a visiting scholar. And I felt that it would be a great place to launch my career once I completed my PhD. I also had the opportunity, so it was a fellowship that allowed me to conduct my research as well as support the development of academic programs. And I was keenly aware of the importance of providing opportunities for panimating and other Latin American students. So I helped shape a vision for the internship program and also wrote grants to support panimating and Latin American students to increase their exposure to science and training in the field in order to increase opportunities for them. Wonderful. So then on what brought you up to Oregon State University, how did you decide to apply there? I participated in a two-week Transdisciplinary Marine Science Summer Academy in 2014, and it was the first time that I actually saw people actively talking about this interdisciplinary work. So how do we engage the science, the natural science, with the social science? And it'd been something I've been talking about or thinking about for years, but I didn't really have a place to do it. So I'd like to highlight that at this Smithsonian, it was very natural science, a tropical ecology base. So I was definitely an outsider in that respect. So the opportunity to work intensively for two weeks with a range of experts and other students and postdocs on this just in my mind. So I did that for two weeks. And being on the Oregon coast for two weeks really showed how special it was. So when I returned to Panama, I saw an opening and at OSU, for marine and coastal policy for the development of an undergraduate degree in marine studies. So I applied. Well, it sounds like all of the pieces been fell into place for you. And I know you have been working on a variety of really cool projects. So is there one in particular you'd like to single out and tell us more about today? There is actually. And you're right. I have been working on a variety of projects. In Panama, in particular, they have really sort of been really close to home. But the one I want to talk about is related to climate change and ocean acidification and how to operationalize or how to better understand coastal communities' ability to adapt to a threat that is increasingly understood from the natural science perspective. The very difficult to observe and measure in terms of the impact of human communities. So I've been working for the past year, year and a half in a collaboration with Tessa Hill and Christy Crocker, Tessa's at UC Davis and Christy's at UC Santa Cruz as part of two funded projects. One is by the Lentvest Ocean Program and the other one is by California OPC. And both projects complement each other in that Tessa and Christy are developing synthesis away impacts along the west coast of the United States as well as species responses to those. And part I'm focusing on is trying to understand how communities are adapting and what people are doing to respond to this threat. And in addition to that, then thinking about how those adaptive strategies can better link with existing policies. So in other words, are the policies in place that relate to ocean acidification and associated stressors are they responding to community needs in terms of adaptation? So I guess the high level question would be how can we integrate community perceptions with policy needs and environmental knowledge related to climate change in the ocean? Very cool. And I know you mentioned you are looking at how communities are adapting. How do you, I guess, quantify or observe what's happening? What sorts of things are you looking for? We assume or I assume oftentimes that people are keenly aware and very, very capable of saying ocean acidification is affecting X and I am doing these actions to change in response. Instead, I'm seeing in some cases, I'm seeing people say, yes, we know this threat is coming. We're working very closely with scientists. And for instance, a shellfish farmer might say in order to be better prepared for the potential threat, we have expanded our operations. We're diversifying our activities. We have not only do we have the growing facility, but we also have restaurants or we have merchandising or we have other kinds of activities that may diversify our livelihoods portfolio. On the other hand, we have people saying the federal government is asking us for our input on, say, water quality control guidelines. And we know something's happening, but we have no idea. We don't know the science to say, yes, you should set a guideline on this or no, you shouldn't set a guideline on that, right? We keep hearing about it, but we're not seeing it, but we want to prepare. So it's sort of that range of very proactive people and others that know they should be doing something that aren't quite sure. Well, Anna, thank you for telling us about one of these projects. And I know that climate change and ocean acidification are very complicated and huge problems and studying people in general is a challenge, I think most of the time. And so when we look at some of the challenges and struggles that you're facing now or that you've faced over the course of your career, do you have an example you can share with us and just kind of talk us through how you worked through one of these difficult times? I think rejection or difficult times are part of life and definitely a part of academic life. So I think a challenge I face typically is investing so heavily in relationships and explaining what that human dimension is. And then not having the same sort of level of investment from other partners, be they natural scientists, be they funders, institutions. So we spent a lot of time just convincing people that the work we do is important. But oftentimes it doesn't get recognized as such. And the easy response is typically to say, well, let's go back to the science and by science people usually mean the natural science. So I have a hard time with that partly because I really believe in it on a personal level, but also because I've seen cases in which community engagement, working with communities, involving them from the beginning really has elements of success. So it's frustrating on a personal level, but also for the people and communities that I really care about to see that all the effort we may put into getting something funded or getting something worked out is not recognized by others. Certainly, as social scientists, you often can't necessarily do some of these tightly controlled experiments like you would see perhaps in natural sciences. But I think you're tackling some really important issue. So how do you deal with this frustration or how do you overcome some of this maybe stigma attached to the social sciences to get those ideas out there? It's taken me a really long time not going to lie to you. It's been a really long path of finding my own voice in what it is I do and the importance of the kind of work that myself and other social scientists do related to environmental issues, in a particular climate change. I find allies and I talk about it. And I educate and train myself in communicating better what it is that I do. And I try to find examples of things that work. But the most important thing that I do is I find allies and I work in collaboration. And that is one of the most exciting and fulfilling parts of my work is finding collaborators from across the range of scientific expertise that really believe this is important. So it's sort of a team of people saying transdisciplinary interdisciplinary work where we can speak to each other. Although we may speak different languages, making the effort to understand what we're each saying, what our jargon is like, why we're saying what we're saying has been one of the most fulfilling parts. And I have really amazing and fun. I must say they're really fun teams of interdisciplinary researchers that have developed both in the field OSU and beyond. - Well, I think that is phenomenal because I think it does take all of these different perspectives and backgrounds to help solve some of these huge issues that we're facing in science and society today. So I'm really glad to hear that that is the approach that you're taking. And we touched on the challenges that I do want to make sure we acknowledge your successes as well, Ana. So do you have a favorite success story whether it was a huge win or just a small one that was really meaningful for you that you want to tell us about today? - I think it's about collaboration as well. So in the context of those recent projects related to ocean acidification that I was talking about, the collaboration between the institutions involved to me has been a major, major success in both elevating my knowledge about what's happening in the natural physical world and in sharing my approach to understanding the social world. So the evidence to sort of what are those successes, I think was a recent workshop that we held in Oakland around agencies and institutions involved in decision making around ocean acidification. And really seeing how keen and how excited they were about this collaboration and how they really saw that the approach of both the human centered as well as an ecological and physical science and foreign research. So when I hear people saying they need this after suggesting it and shaping it or designing a project with that in mind, that is a huge success. And I think as a team, we all shared the excitement around that. And similarly, I'm part of an NSF in RT, the National Research Trainership Program here at OSU. And that has to be another one of the successes. So one of my graduate students was part of the team working on marine reserves here in Oregon. And to see four, and these were women, it happened to be women on this team, to see four women from completely different backgrounds come together. So one was a physical oceanographer, one was a policy student, one is a marine ecologist, and the other one is a statistician, right? It sounds like the beginning of a joke, put them all together. And you come up to an amazing, really thought out, creative, innovative result. So those are other successes, just seeing how something that we as faculty have shaped and designed over time, how it has really helped students move forward in their thinking. - Definitely, well, congratulations on these successes. And you mentioned a couple times now the importance of these collaborations and these relationships that you build. So for scientists who are maybe new to this field but want to be on this path, how do you get these collaborations and conversations going? It seems almost daunting to try and tackle it all at once. - I mean, this is sort of life advice, right? Be nice, be curious, ask questions, be respectful. That's another one that we talk a lot about in terms of how to engage in interdisciplinary work. I think being respectful and listening to other perspectives, acknowledging that the other perspective has equal validity as yours. There's some philosophical foundations of science and of knowledge that we have that may be completely different. So just understanding what is truth to you versus what is truth to me. And acknowledging that we can both have our own versions of truth and that if we want to collaborate, we're going to have to find a way to mesh those. And if those are not meshable, then perhaps our collaboration isn't going to work. Is one of the first steps. So be at the table and listen. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Be honest about your intentions. Find places at your respective institutions in which those collaborations are possible. And if not, literally just reach out to somebody in a field different than yours and say, "Hey, can we sit down for a cup of coffee and look to hear what you do?" - That is awesome. Well, great advice for our listeners who may be aspiring scientists or on the path themselves. And we've talked about some different aspects of your career and the work that you do that I'd love to talk next about what you've been reading on it. We love getting book recommendations from everybody we have on the show here. So do you have a favorite book, whether it's related to science or not, that you want to tell us about today? - Oh gosh, I have so many on my side table. Fortunately, grading sometimes takes precedent. But one of my favorites that I have really savored over time is Jane Guttles a reason for help. It's just so inspiring to hear about a scientist and environmentalist whose work I just absolutely adore. I think it's amazing. So hearing about her background and her relationship to spirituality and how that has connected to her science and the development of empathy towards all beings and how that sort of a foundation of her work has been really inspiring. And when I say I saver, I literally read one or two pages at a time and then put it down and think about what that means for my own life or how we can promote some of that empathy and care and compassion towards all beings as a vision for a new world in the context of climate change and all the different environmental crises of our time. So that's one. Also, as a woman of color, so I'm of mixed multicultural heritage, I guess. My dad is the lack of West Indian descent and my mom is white, she's from the UK, but has been in Panama for a long time. And I've been really thinking about these issues of race and representation and diversity. So reading Michelle Obama's becoming was just so empowering. And so fun and so exciting and emotional with all the things. And then I just recently went to the library and got out a house of Merth by Edith Borden. I love period novels. - Awesome. (laughing) You read broadly, I like it. Well, we will add these recommendations to our website for our listeners to find if they are inserts of what to read next. We've talked about some different aspects of your career, particularly some of these training opportunities you've had, you've been to some different institutions for your work, you've been to Panama. Do you have a favorite place that your science has taken you when you look back on your career experiences? - I mean, it would be unfair to say that Panama's not my favorite place it absolutely is. I have a new grant actually that I'm so excited to be working on in the next few years actually on the waste management in Rivers. But the most exciting place I went recently was Cooching in Borneo. I went for the International Marine Conservation Congress. And it was surprisingly spectacular, amazing. One of the most exciting 10 days I think I've ever spent, and I was able to bring my family with us. So we spent my son's seventh birthday at Bako National Park looking at proposals, monkeys, and bipers, and all kinds of things. So the city of Cooching itself was just magical and then being able to get out in nature with my kids was just a dream come true. - This sounds amazing. So if me or our listeners have the opportunity to visit Cooching in Borneo, what is something we absolutely must see or do? - Oh gosh, just walk around and eat all the food and feed all the history and hope that you're lucky enough to have an opportunity to visit the sort of indigenous center and the textile museum. I mean, just the combination of tradition and nature that's so in your face in a friendly compassionate way was really unexpected. And we continued our trip into Thailand and Bali after that and we kind of wish we had stayed and made an effort to stay longer and get to know it after the conference. Admittedly, I was working most of the time and my family was out having fun. - You could live vicariously through their photos, right? - Oh gosh, yes. - Well, this sounds like a phenomenal trip that you're able to take for this conference and then continuing on with your family afterwards. And you mentioned that you are launching a new project in Panama. I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the work you've been doing in Panama in this new project as well. So can you give us some detail? - Absolutely. So the new project is with a local NGO, Maria Verde and they do a range of environmental work more as a advocacy and social communication and engaging with questions of behavior change. This particular project is based on the development of a device to remove waste from one of the main rivers that leads out to the ocean right in the Bay of Panama. And obviously with the amount of solid waste that is in these rivers, where the heavy rains start during the rainy season, it causes all kinds of problems related to flooding, obviously human health. So the project is primarily to develop this device and install it, so design install, communicate and advertise it. But we also have a few different research components. So my colleague from here, we're simply on the Daniel Summon and myself are leading the social science research component. So we're going to be working with, hopefully with students from the, when you already see, I think Narrowica of Panama, the technological university in Panama, to have those students help us conduct research on waste management practices, perceptions of waves and really try to develop community engagement through the research that we're going to be conducting in the communities that are directly along the banks of the river and Matthias and Nandis River. So that's going to happen for the next three years and I'll probably spend at least a month if not more this year, down there setting up the communities and the focus groups and the interview schedules for those communities. So that's just super exciting. And then another really exciting project is through my PhD student, who got a little, he is doing work with Coiva, a national park. And the bigger question there is related to equity and the blue economy. So how are the narratives related to, what people are calling the blue economy? So any kind of economic activity related to the marine environment, whether those narratives have an equity component or not. So how is that narrative, which has been developed and taken up in the lot of governance approaches to marine resources? How is it really affecting local small-scale fishing communities in rural Panama? So hopefully you'll be spending some time over the summer looking at those communities and then we're going to be thinking more broadly about who would have the actors involved in these narratives? And what does that narrative represent to each of those different actors, right? It could be sectors such as transportation, tourism, fishing, communications and logistics for Panama. Obviously it's really important that Panama can now. So how do these large infrastructure projects potentially take precedent over the interests of the small-scale local fishing communities are highly resource dependent? Very cool. Well, Ana, I've loved these little teasers. Now I'm curious to see what the results are when they're ultimately completed. (laughs) These sound like amazing projects. And throughout our conversation, you've talked about the great people you get to work with. And I think as scientists, that's not necessarily always the stereotype we get in the media. But scientists are funny, creative, amazing people who are doing phenomenal work out there. And I think this is a challenge overcoming this stereotype. So we try to break it on our show by just highlighting some of the human side of science, the fun traditions, the quirky memories, things that you do that go contrary to some of the stereotypes that people have that scientists are these very critical, serious people working a lab all the time. So do you have some examples of your own that you can share of this human side of science? - Oh my gosh, we have fun all the time. (laughs) So much fun. So with our team from the LandFest and OPC project on the ocean acidification, I got to spend time in Bridegabay with Tessa Hill, the co-PI on the project and Christy, the other co-PI who based the Santa Cruz. And we had an amazing dinner and get to meet her family and just chat. I mean, that's part of building trusted, building relationship, right? With our NRT project, the National Research Training Ship funding, we've been doing field courses out at our Newport facility, OSU's Marine Campus, for four years now. And we stay in faculty housing, which is basically a trailer on the campus. (laughs) We try to at least twice during the week. We get really, really early in one of my colleagues brings his boat and we go out crabbing or fishing or trolling for salmon out in the bay. And then at dinner time, we'll cook the crab and just talk and laugh and giggle. I mean, I think it's a student's knew we were having so much fun. They might be angry at us for giving them evening assignments, right? (laughs) In another occasion, I went with a colleague here at OSU, Kelly Beedenwegg. We developed a course, a field course, on how to conduct team and social science research. And we took a group of nine students, mostly her lab students. And then we also included a few Panamanian students that came as well to Bogas del Toto where I conducted my PhD work. And we all rented a house right across from the surf and rented little golf buggies to get in and out of town. And again, just had a blast. I mean, waking up in the morning to the waves and people would go for runs or go for walks and have dinners together. We have a really good time. I'm not going to complain about my job in terms of fun. - I love it. And I love these stories that you've shared because I think you're absolutely right. It's not this kind of white lab code experience that every scientist is having every day in the job. So I'm so glad you shared those with us. And we've talked about just some of the huge issues that you are addressing in your research. And I know oftentimes things like funding, staff, technology, just the feasibility of the work that you'd like to do. Stand in the way as barriers. So if we gave you everything you could dream of today, Anna, all the resources, all of the funding, what is the one question you would most want to answer the one problem you would most want to address? - How can we connect with people in such a way that we can really address the issues related to climate change? I don't know if all the resources in the world wouldn't even allow us to have the answer to that. But I'd love to know what are we missing? What could we do differently to really secure changes in attitudes and perceptions towards our environment, right? What are we missing in terms of communicating the urgency of changing our consumption patterns and changing our relationship to each other? Again, I'm not sure the amount of funding and resources in the world will help us. But that's one of the big burning questions that I keep thinking at the small scale of which I work. What are we missing? What do we need to know in order to have good outcomes for communities and people? - Definitely, we need our feasibility magic wand here. I think to solve this one. - I know, sorry, it's not a realistic question, but it's what drives what I do. - It's great. Thank you so much for dreaming big with us and thinking about some of these big questions in the field. And we've talked about a lot of different aspects of your life, your career. And for some of our listeners out there who are working through their own career path themselves, it can be helpful to get advice at different stages. So do you have a particular piece of advice that when you think back, it really helped you that you can pass on to me and our listeners today, Anna? - Well, the first one's going to be super annoying, so I apologize, but I think be patient is one. - I could use that advice. - Right. So when I was doing my PhD, I remember my advisor, Jeff Berry, said, "You need to feel connected to your work. You need to think that is this something you're going to be able to do every day and think very deeply about an intense look about for the next few years, because if it isn't, you're not going to finish." So really be connected to your work, right? Care about it. Find a question that you really care about. And I realize that that's very difficult in an era where you're sort of jumping from left to left, trying to really satisfy funders, needs and interests. So you're kind of tweaking your proposal here and there to respond to funding, calls, et cetera. But I think finding some element of passion, something that is your passionate about in the work that you're doing, it's going to be key. Otherwise, you're going to burn out really quickly. I want fantastic advice for our listeners. Is there any other last piece of advice you'd like to share with them or a last message of inspiration you want to leave us with today? I think it's to be creative. We need to really think outside of the box and I'm thinking, "Peach these students," or even undergrad master students. There are a range of places that need your expertise. It doesn't have to be the traditional ones that your faculty members or your mentors are pointing at all the time. We are trained in a way that we can help you kind of become like us. And I'm intentionally trying to think of ways in which that won't be the case. Because I think there are so many different places where people interested in the social science human dimension of the environment can go and have an impact. So I think it's being really creative. And admittedly, I don't know what all those places are. But I'm always seeking them. And I'm always talking to people and thinking, what are the other places in which the work that I do never real impact. So I think just be creative and think outside of the box when you're thinking about where you might want to end up in a career. Academia is one path. And it has worked for me in several ways, but under no impression that this is the only way for the only path for everybody interested in this. Well, I think that is such a helpful message to share with our listeners today, Anna. If our listeners are interested in your work and they want to learn more about you and what to do, what's the best way for them to do so or to get in touch? I think the best part for them to follow the kinds of thinking that I find interesting and questions that I'm pursuing and research that I'm doing is through Twitter, obviously friends are in there as well, because my colleagues are my friends. But I use it for professional purposes, right? I share mostly articles that I find interested related to climate science, as well as events and opportunities for presentations, conferences, symposium organizing, et cetera. And then for my contact email, I think you visit my Oregon State website profile. You will find my email there. And I am working on a website, but it's not up yet. But once I have it, it will be linked to my Oregon State profile as well. Excellent. And if our listeners want to follow you on Twitter, what is your handle? It is Dr. Anna with Winon K. Spalding. Perfect. Well, listeners, definitely check out those resources. Follow Anna on Twitter. And Anna, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you during our interview today. Likewise, thank you. Thank you again. And listeners, thank you for joining us as well. We'll see you next time on another episode of People Behind the Science.