95: Into the heart of the Himalayas with Jono Lineen

It feels like everyone's talking about two things right now. Pickleball and podcasts. So what happens when someone who's lived her whole life on the court decides to bring those two worlds together? I'm Sanya Mirza and I'm bringing you a brand new podcast, serving it up with Sanya. I've had some incredible conversations with friends, fellow athletes, artists and entrepreneurs. Each episode starts with the game of Pickleball and once the rallies are done, the real talk begins. Serving it up with Sanya, watch and listen on YouTube and wherever you get your favourite podcast. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Most Software Stories, India's Very On Travel Podcast, where each week we share the journey of travelers in their own words and relive their experiences with you, Alasnars. Hey guys, welcome to a brand new episode on The Most Software Stories Podcast. We'd like to wish you a belated Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. 2020 has been a tough year for a lot of us, but it is time to give ourselves a part on the back for seeing this through. We'd like to thank all our guests and listeners for the continued love and support throughout the year. Remember that the pandemic is still not over. So while we look forward to traveling in the New Year, be sure to social distance and take all necessary precautions. Before we get on with the today's episode, a quick announcement on our giveaway from last week's episode. And the winners are Josham Jamaluddin and Lushma Rathur. Congratulations guys and we will reach out to you shortly with more details. As for today's episode, we talk to Dr. Jono Leneen about his remarkable travel memoir of his journey across the Western Himalayas. Make sure to listen to the episode and answer three simple questions linked in the show notes to stand a chance to win a copy of Jono's book. Good luck and on with today's episode. With that introduction, we'd love to welcome Dr. Jono Leneen on the Masafar stories. Jono, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast and welcome. Oh, safe. It's great to be with you. Thank you, Jono. And a lot of times we use multi-talented or a man of many talents very loosely, but this time it's truly the case because Jono has been a forester, a mountain guide, a ski racer, an author and currently curator at the National Museum of Australia. Jono, how do you manage to wear so many hats? I mean, how did you manage all of this? Well, maybe the secret to having that type of a life, so is not to have kids and not to get a mortgage too early on in life, gives you a lot more time and a lot more freedom. Now I'm a dad and I'm married and I have a complex job and so that type of a freedom that I had in my 20s and 30s isn't there anymore. I mean, my energy is directed into different areas, but I was extremely fortunate to have that freedom. And a lot of that freedom was the fact that I didn't have, I wasn't in debt and I was, you know, a young guy free and easy. So I was extremely fortunate. That's brilliant. And remember, you're telling this to somebody from India, before we take up our first job and turn 22, 23, parents are already behind the back, behind the backs to get us married right away. So maybe that's a reason why. I think that is a big difference, say for sure. My parents were very encouraging, you know, I started out as an international ski racer and they were very encouraging of that. And out of that came a particular series of jobs that meant that, you know, as you said, I was a forester, but as a forester in Canada, I only worked for particular seasons. So it only worked for six months of the year and I had six months off and so for a lot of that time I was actually ski racing full time or, you know, or I was living in the Himalayas. So that also gave me a lot of freedom. Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. I think a good segue of sorts, also, I know we're really early in the conversation, but the Himalayas, right, that's what we're here to talk about. Your book into the heart of the Himalayas, right? I know the book itself, I've spent the past few days reading the book. It's a great, great travelogue of sorts, but just giving our listeners who might not have a background about it, just a circumstances leading up to this book as well, Jono, would you like to outline that as well for us? Yeah, sure. So how did I end up in the Himalayas? I would say that there was really two catalysts. The first catalyst was a tragic story. My younger brother, Gareth, was a rower, a competitive rower with the University of Victoria in Canada, and the Him and his team were out training one evening, and a huge storm came up out of the Pacific. They were training on a small lake. It was only about two kilometers long by a kilometer wide, but there was six foot waves on the lake. It was Canada in winter, so the water was extremely cold, probably only two or three degrees, and the storm actually snapped their racing rowing shell into, and the boys were in the water. And unfortunately, Gareth died of hypothermia, and that was one of the real low points of my life. And at the same time as that, I was training for the Olympics, and that completely disrupted my training, and really kind of, in a lot of ways, destroyed my Olympic dream, and that kind of led me into a downward spiral two years of really booze and drugs and failed relationships. And it was almost a hopeless situation for me. I lost faith in the future because when somebody so close to you dies so young, he was only 18 years old. He makes you question what the future can hold for you in a positive sense, and made me question, you know, the family and the community around me, and it also made me question myself, was I, you know, what was the point in me being here. And at the bottom of that spiral, I kind of came back to a dream that I had from childhood in a way, because when we were kids, I grew up in Belfast in Northern Ireland during the troubles there during the Civil War, and when we were kids, my mom used to take us down to the library every Saturday morning. We would walk down there, and we would get our books for the week, our library books, and I would usually choose a couple of kids' mystery stories, like the Hardy Boyth or something like that. And then I was, I was drawn to the mountaineering section of the library, and this is back in the 1970s. And in those days, you know, those books used to have color photo inserts, and I remember I would always open up those books, and there would be those color pictures of men and women climbing in the Himalayas, and they would be up above the clouds in these bright colored down jackets, and behind them there would just be a sea of peaks flowing on, and the sky would be this incredibly deep blue, not a cloud there. And that was completely different to the situation that I was in in Belfast, because Belfast is a very gray city, you know, it's an old industrial city. And during that time, the army was on the streets, so they were wearing khaki gray, the buildings were always gray, there's rings there all the time, so it was just completely gray, and then here were these images of people in a place above the clouds, you know, reaching for the heavens, literally and figuratively. And that memory kind of lodged in my mind, and when I hit the bottom of that downward spiral, that image came back to me, I decided that that was the place that I wanted to go. And so I saved up my money from working in forestry, and I bought a ticket to Delhi, got to Delhi, jumped on a bus, and made my way up to Ladakh, to Ladakh, and that place did not disappoint, I'll tell you the things. It was a place, it is a place of incredible light, of incredibly friendly people, you know, it's an environment of compassion, and I went there for one season of tracking, and I ended up spending eight years in the Himalayas, so that's how I ended up in the Himalayas. I think that's a profound story as well, I mean, even the circumstances leading up to it, I mean, even you were, I think just barely out of your teens, and just a young boy at that time, right, so I think it is but natural for someone to go through that downward spiral of sorts because of the situation in itself, how it was, but it's kind of also endearing how you kind of came out of it, and how the mountains drew you there, and how you ended up in the Himalayas, right, literally across, halfway across the globe. Let's talk a little bit more about how the journey happened, right? The journey that you've covered in the book, you've covered not just the Himalayan part of India, but also other countries, and especially places like Pakistan that's not as exposed as one would say by international mountaineers as they do expose the Indian part of the Himalayas, right? So how did that happen? Well, when I decided to take on that walk, I've been living, I've been living in the Himalayas for a few years at that point, and I spoke quite a bit of Hindi, so I was very comfortable as I spoke of it at Tibet, and also, and I had some fascination with Northern Pakistan, with the Himalayas, the very western edge of it, because that is one of the mountaineering high points of the world, with K-2 and Broad Peak. So I wanted to go there, and it's interesting to think about the motivation for this walk. Because the motivation for the walk really was, as I mentioned earlier, I read a lot of those mountaineering books, and those people like Doug Scott and Doug Halston, great climbers from the '70s and '80s, Brian Oldmeister, and these people were heroes from me, and I was a young guy in great shape from all of the ski racing that I had done, and I was extremely strong, walker, confident in the mountains, and so I thought, well, I love this place, I love the people here, and there's so much culture here also, you know, there's the Islamic side, there's the Buddhist side, there's the Hindi side. So what can I do to kind of bring that incredibly compassionate and positive energy that the people have here into my own life, and I thought a good way to do that would be to connect those three portions of the Himalayas in one long uninterrupted walk, and on top of that being a young guy with lots of ego, I thought that would be also, you know, a great thing to become the first person to do that, the first person to walk, the length of the Western Himalayas alone, and so that's why I decided to start in Pakistan. Yeah, that's brilliant, and yeah, just to throw some numbers out there, this has covered over a period of four months, all by walk, and a distance of about 2,700 kilometers, so it's no mean feat like that, that's it, right? Yeah, I, you know, when I think about it now, so if I'm actually blowing away, because I'm pretty sure I could probably still do that walk, but it would, it would probably take me a year now I think, because I was walking, you know, 30 or 40 kilometers a day, every day with 20, 25 kilo pack at, you know, an average altitude of probably 4,000 meters, so it was, it was a huge undertaking, and, you know, the physical aspect of it didn't bother me at all, I had no doubt that I would be able to do it. What was more interesting was probably the psychological aspect, you know, because, especially when I went to Pakistan, it was the first time that I had been there, you know, when you spend a lot of time in India, of course, you know, the image of Pakistan isn't that great, so, you know, I started in Pakistan, and the first couple of days there, it was worrisome, you know, I was in the area close to the Kashmir border, along the line of control, and there's a lot of military there, and, you know, a lot of military around can make you nervous. So there was, there was as much a psychological challenge in this as a physical challenge. Absolutely, and, you're just going back to the point, right, because you had been, at that point, you had been in India, you had spent some time in India, so there was that image of Pakistan that had been built up, and especially even in the region that you kind of started this off, right, the Gilgit Baltistan, part of Pakistan, it has its own troubles. How was the, I guess, the ground situation, like how were your interactions with people as you started this work and the people you would run into, and just in terms of security, right, even like I said, in India, we have a certain image of Pakistan, which is true to a certain extent, and some of it is also kind of blown a little bit out of proportion, so how did you feel the situation on the ground, and were there any, like, say, concerns, or even in terms of security, right, just, there have been things in the past that have happened, people being abducted, and stuff like that, were any of those playing on your mind? Yeah, they played on my mind really only for the first couple of days. I remember the first night that I, I camped, it was, no, it would have been the second night, I camped, the first night I stayed in the village of the store, which was, you know, an incredible start anyway, because one of the first places I visited was a gun shop in a store, and was, you know, told by the owner there, the owner was extremely accommodating, lovely man, but he explained to me how important firearms are to, you know, the transition to manhood in Northern Pakistan, in Baltistan, which was an interesting, interesting opening for me, and he actually offered to sell me a gun at a cut rate price, because he was so worried about the fact that I was undertaking this entire walk through the Himalayan without any type of weapon, and for me, that just seemed crazy because I have completely the opposite idea around weapons. If you approach a person or a community in your heart, they're immediately going to be standoffish and concerned about it, whereas my experience right across the Himalayan was that I would show up in a village, I was alone, I was a single guy, I was obviously not from the area, and I was not a threat at all, and what happened immediately, and it didn't matter if it was in Pakistan or Ladakh or the whole speedy God will, whom one people would approach me within five minutes of sitting down on someone's step in the village and offer me a cup of tea, and then after ten minutes or so, you know, a crowd would be gathering around, and they'd be asking me questions, because then almost all of the villages, somebody speaks English, and like I said, I spoke a lot of Hindi, and within ten minutes people were offering me a place to sleep, either in the kitchen or in their shed with the cows or the sheep or whatever, the compassion and generosity of the people right across the Himalayas was one of the stand-out events of that entire walk. To the point where I say that, you know, I started that walk still really suffering from the grief of Gareth's loss, although I wasn't really cognizant, I wasn't really recognizing that during the walk, you know, I pushed it down so far into my subconscious that I was, it was easy for me to ignore it, but I think it was the compassion and generosity of people right across the Himalayas, their willingness to open up to me and to take me in and treat me like a relative, even though they'd never met me before, that in a lot of ways reinstilled my faith, you know, I said earlier, and when Gareth thought I lost a lot of faith in myself, in my community, in the future, and it was, it was the people of the Himalayas who helped reinstill my faith in humanity. So, yes, I was nervous those first couple of days in Pakistan, but you know, almost right away people opened up their houses to me. I was not a threat, and if I'd accepted that weapon from the gun dealer in a store, I'm pretty sure that the situation would have been completely different. Yeah, I think so. I think it was a wise decision, that's all I would say. Yeah, and I wouldn't have been able to get that weapon across the border anyway, safe. Yeah, definitely. But just in terms of the journey itself, right, how did you kind of chart out the path? Because this is, again, back in the 90s, and I mean, even now it's not that easy in the mountains, even with the phone, it's hard to get along just because you don't have a signal and I think, how did you like chart out that path you plan to take? Yeah, that's a good question, because of course, this was in the days back before smartphones and easily accessible GPS. So, and of course, it's all along that border area, Pakistan, India, Tibet, you know, a hotly contested area. So, I couldn't access any Indian government maps because those aren't issued, but interestingly, you can get topographical maps for that entire area through the U.S. Army. And so you could actually, I could actually buy those maps. And of course, I couldn't do that online back in those days, but I ordered those maps through a map seller in America. And I probably had, oh, it was at least 20 maps. And what I basically did was I just lined them all up on the floor, spread them out, and I kind of traced a route along there using the knowledge that I already had because I'd been walking a lot, especially in Ladakh and in Ima Chal, and I'd been in Gharawal. And then other areas I was able to use available guide books from back in those days, especially up in northern Pakistan, and in Kumaan, and other areas of Gharawal, and Ima Chal that I hadn't been to before. And I was able to trace out an entire route and, you know, get some idea how long it was going to take logistically where I'd be able to, you know, be in villages where I'd be able to stock up on more supplies. And then, you know, I brought all those maps along with me, and I'm a very good map reader, you know, I've been very competitive in orientating, which is the sport that involves running map reading. So I was always pretty confident about where I was and where I was going. It's just remarkable, that's all I could say, because I am pretty bad with my orientation. I get lost easily even in a city that has like every intersection marked, I get lost easily. So that's off to you, would you know. Yeah, that kind of thing. It might be a difficult walk for you. And even these days, you know, with GPS, you know, because I go back to Ladakh every few years, it's not guaranteed that GPS is going to be accurate. So, you know, you need to have a pretty good sense of direction. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But yeah, really, really remarkable, and especially doing get just with paper maps and such a terrain. And in a place where, I mean, you don't speak a little bit of indie, but again, language is somewhat of a little bit of a handicap, I would say. It's just remarkable as all I have to say. And again, this is back in the 90s, right? It's not even now. I think now there is a chance that you might run to a lot more people just because everything in terms of the infrastructure, tourism, all of that has picked up a little bit, but back in the day, really remarkable achievement, I'd say. And just another thing that I found interesting also was this transition you were making from what you're calling the Muslim part to the Buddhist part or the Indian side, right? Basically, how just to kind of get over a distance of about 60 kilometers, right? Because I think you start in India from Cargill. It was just kind of funny in one way that how much you have to go around, right? To get back to that point. Oh, that was that was crazy because, you know, I started at the intersection of the Indus and a store rivers close to Gilgit, and then I went up over the D.S.I. plateau down to Skardu, and then followed the Kapaloo, no, the Shia River to Kapaloo, and Kapaloo is only about 25 kilometers from the line of control. But of course, I couldn't go any farther at that point. And so I had to take buses and trains all the way back down to Lahore, across Debelly, and Debelly had to fly back up to Laey, and Laeya had to get another bus, which is only, as you said, 50 or 60 kilometers from Cargill and Kapaloo. But I mean, I think it was over 1,500 kilometers to get back to that point and start all over again. Yeah. That was, that was an interesting one, and I was so happy to get walking again because, you know, walking is what us humans are made to do. You know, there's so much comfort in walking actually. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it was just, I mean, obviously, it's nothing close to the same thing, and the things that you've gone through in reality. But there was a movie that came out not long ago, a Bollywood movie. I don't know if you had an issue, probably check it out if you haven't. But it was called Bersrungi Bhai John, and the lead actor does that same thing where a girl from Pakistan is actually lost and she's on the Indian side. She loses her way and gets on the Indian side. And he makes that long journey to get her back to Pakistan and how he goes through a lot of twists and turns and difficulties and challenges. I will check that out. That sounds interesting. Yeah. It is. I'll probably set you the link and the name of the movie, but it's pretty funny. Of course, nothing close to the reality that you went through. The reality, yeah. The reality would be a bit different, I think. Yeah. But it's just funny and it's not that you should definitely check out. But your house is great. It's great that he did it for love. I know, right? It was somebody who wasn't even related to him, but he just does it so she could be reunited with her parents. But yeah, John, I was actually going to ask you how you felt. The transition was, right? Both in terms of the Himalayas as well as the people, right? When you move from what you're calling the Pakistan benefit or the Muslim Himalayas to the Buddhist and their Hindu side of the Himalayas. Like, what kind of a transition did you feel both in terms of the terrain, if any, and also in terms of the people? Well, if we look at the transition from the Muslim Himalayas to the Buddhist Himalayas, so from Pakistan across into Nadakh, you know, as I said, I mean, people on both sides of that border were incredibly compassionate and generous. Of course, there had been a very, very long relationship between Baltistan and Nadakh before partition. So, you know, culturally, although they were religiously different, culturally, there was a lot of similarities between the two areas. What I probably noticed most when I transitioned across to Nadakh was that in Pakistan, I never interacted or spoke to any women. It was always men who interacted with me. Or as when I went to Nadakh to the Buddhist side, you know, Buddhist women are much more open and engaging and, you know, willing to talk to you as you're walking through their fields. So, that was a bit of a surprise and something that I appreciated. I mean, a personal opinion of my own is that I just find the, you know, the Daki people and the Lahollis and Spitiites to be the most, the most generous people that I've ever come across. You know, that's, I think one of the reasons why I spent eight years on and off in that area is because the people are so, so beautiful, so open and accommodating. And then the, you know, when I made the transition from Laholl across into Ghatawal, what was interesting there was, well, I was moving from the northern side of the Himalayas to the southern side. And so geographically and meteorologically, there's a huge difference between the two because the northern side of the Himalayas, of course, doesn't have them on soon. It's much, much drier. It's generally higher than the southern side. And then making that transition across into Ghatawal, everything is so, so much greener. It's just teeming with life. And then, you know, almost as soon as you drop into Ghatawal, you're into that Chardam Yatra area, which is just, you know, it's, it is a path that is inundated with religion and spirits and magic. So I think that Chardam Yatra area is one of the most vibrant and vital areas that I've ever been to in mountains anywhere in the world. And I was there, you know, much later on in the year. So if you know, I was there in October and November. So, so pilgrimage season had pretty well finished. So there was very few people around. But still you could feel that the energy of the incredible history that's that's been concentrated into that area between, you know, Yamotri, Gangotri, Kiranath and Badrnath. You know, that is just an area that is pulsing with energy. So the three areas were very different in a lot of ways. But again, all of them were extremely accommodating and all of them really opened me up to completely different ways of thinking, which is a lot of what I want to accomplish on that wall. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And also one question that I've been keen to ask you, Jonoab, because you know, it's not even like Hitchhiking, right? I've had people previously on the podcast with Hitchhiking, but walking, right? It's a little bit of a lonely journey also, right? That way, sure, you would run into like villagers or people every now and again, when you're to make a stop. But for large portions of your journey, it would just be lonely, right? So what was what was going on in your mind while you did this, like took this undertaking, just walking for most part of the day? Hmm. Oh, well, that what was going on in my mind, Syff was magic and magic happened every day on that walk. And I think that a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was, I was alone and I was walking and everybody listening to the podcast, well, I've had the situation whether they've been trekking in the Himalayas or walking around one of the parks in Delhi, where you go for a long walk and hear the way that you think starts to change. This is actually what I did, my PhD on was the relationship between walking and creativity and storytelling. And a lot of what this book is about is those three things. So, and actually this book was a way a catalyst for me to move into that area of research. So when we go for a walk, you know, our minds change neurologically, neurologically, neurotransmitters, all change while we walk and we become more, more open to what's going on around us. And so, you know, people say, well, weren't you lonely? And, you know, honestly, I wasn't because, because every once in a while, probably about every, every third day or so on average, I would be, I would stop in a village, stay in a village and people would take me. And I know a little of the conversation was limited. There was that, there was that beautiful interaction with people who had no expectations about what the other was going to give or take. And during the day, when I was walking, I was alone with my thoughts. And, you know, the other incredible thing is that this, this walk gave me so much time to think about my brother, think about my brother, Gareth. And what he meant to me and what his passing actually meant for me and for my future. And I frequently described the walk as actually being a very long darshan with Gareth. You know, I was able to view him in all kinds of different ways consciously and subconsciously. And, you know, as, as when you have darshan with a priest or with a piece of sacred landscape or an incredible statue, you know, being able to view even all of these different lights made me, made me much more accepted of what had happened and what the future would hold. So walking alone was actually one of the, one of the real pieces of magic of this, of this entire walk. Yeah, that's beautiful, really, really profound, and I really loved the way that you've actually weaved this as well in your journey, right? Because this was an integral part of the journey itself, Gareth, right? Gareth and his passing and his memories, they were an integral part of the journey, an integral part of you. And clearly shows in the book as well, that's a portion of the book that I really, really loved and appreciated. But as you kind of continued through this journey, through the Indian side of the Himalayas, like, what, what had you planned? Like, what was on your mind? Where was this journey leading into and where would you plan to finish this? Well, you know, the plan, the superficial or conscious plan behind it was to, again, immerse myself in these three different cultures and religions and, you know, trying to create some kind of, you know, almost an anthropological text around the walk. You know, in Garwal and Kuanwan, you know, what I wanted to do, I wanted to complete the Chardam Yatra, and then go across Kuanwan to the Mahakali River, which was, is the border between India and the Pala, and, you know, that's where I planned to finish the trek, because, you know, the Mahakali is an incredible river, because it comes from Mount Kailash, the Lake Mansur of Ar, and then eventually comes into the Ganga. So I thought that that was a fitting place to stop. Now, unfortunately, I wasn't able to complete the Chardam Yatra, because I got to Yamno-3, I got the Gango-3. I started up to Ketanath, and in fact, that was probably only about five kilometers from Ketanath, when the police came along and told me to turn around. And I said, "Well, what are you talking about? I thought this was a pilgrimage site. I want a pilgrimage." And they said, "No, no, it's too dangerous." And I thought, "Well, what do you mean it's too dangerous? Oh, it's extremely cold. You'll freeze." And I said, "I've just walked from Pakistan. I don't think I'm going to freeze." But anyway, it was the police, and they weren't going to listen to anything I had to say. So I had to turn around there. And then when I got to Joshua Muth, and I had to apply to the District Commissioner for an exemption to try and get up the button. I went to the District Commissioner's office multiple times over three days, I think, and no one could actually tell me where the District Commissioner was. And the thought was really interesting. They kept saying he could be in this village, or it could be in that village. He might be holding a court in that particular village. And I said, "Well, when do you think he will be back?" And no one could tell me when he was going to be back. So I decided at that point that the gods were against me, and that maybe but the north wasn't on the card. So I just kept walking. Yeah, some of the things and some of the challenges you are bound to encounter in India, and especially if it's in the 90s, then I'm not surprised. But that's fascinating. And I think it'd be unfair of me to ask you because this journey has been so wonderful. I'm sure it's been sprayed with a number of really memorable and wonderful moments. Anything that stands out to stick out for you? No, that's crazy. Dozens and dozens of moments stick out for me. But in hindsight, there's a couple of moments that I think about all the time. And one of them was when I was in Tabo, which is in Spiti, an incredible, incredible Buddhist monastery, very close to the Tibetan border. And Tabo is incredible because it's one of the few remaining Tibetan gompas from the time of the great translator, Lutsau Orange Ensemble, who created the Tibetan language. And when he returned to Western Tibet, the king of Western Tibet vowed to create 108 gompas in the honor of the creation of the language, which is an incredible thing to do. And Tabo, there's only, unfortunately, all of those particular gompas on the Chinese side into that were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. But on the Indian side, there's fortunately still three of them left. The best known is Tabo. And so Tabo is this place with over a thousand years of history. And it's again one of those places that's just so steep in history and the energy of devotion and faith that it pulses it. You feel it when you go in there. And I remember going into one of the main dukes with a young monk there. And it was just as the sun was coming up. And we went in, we sat in this very dark chamber, very cool. And on four sides of being were these incredible thousand-year-old statues. And the walls were covered in frescoes and in statues. And as I sat there very quietly, the sun started to come above the gompa and light started to filter in through openings in the roof. And the gompas started to come to life. And it felt like the statuary in that room was alive. It was again pulsing with this energy of compassion. And it was, yeah, it was a moment that I'll never forget. Because again, it started bringing me back into the idea that faith, faith in the future, faith in humanity, faith in the wisdom of the past is important. It's something that we should hold on to and try and accommodate in our lives, in our modern lives. So that was one of the moments. And then another moment that I come back to again and again was when I reached Galmok, which as you know is the source of gonga. And I'd been in Gangotri and I walked up to Galmok one day. And I arrived there. I was on my own. You know, there was nobody there. It was in November. So all pilgrims had left. And so I was alone walking up the glacial marines, big rocks that are at the front of a glacier. And as I wanted to reach the source, so I was getting there just as the sun was starting to set. And people who have been to Galmok know that the glacier is kind of cradled between these two great immense ice peaks. And then the sky behind was starting to turn those colors that you see as the sun goes down, you know, coral, ruby and copper. And the face of the glacier was a turquoise color. And I remember thinking that, wow, you know, the color of the sky is coral and the face of the glacier is turquoise. And you know, those are the protective stones that every Tibetan child receives when they're born and they wear those stones for the rest of their lives. They're color of protection. So I felt like I was moving into this into this landscape of protection of security. And so I started running up these rocks. You know, I wanted so much, wanted to get to the source of the Ganga before before the sun went down. And eventually I got there and I was covered in sweat. I'd thrown off my backpacks. He was sure that I'd get there in time before the sun said. And I remember sitting there on this gray sandy beach right at where Ganga Mai comes out from the base of the glacier. And I just wanted to be there, you know, and try and connect with that with the beginning of that incredible river and the beginning of an incredible mother energy. And I sat there and I just felt this energy climbing up my spine with this heat. And then all of a sudden all of a sudden I was I was crying. You know, I just was overcome with emotion that being at that time, at that place. And yeah, that was that was a really really important moment in my life because because you know, interestingly, I'm safe, you know, it took me a very, very long time to write this book. It took me almost 12 years because you know, I've talked a lot here today about the fact that so many incredible things happened during this journey. You know, I always say that magic happened every day. And none of that magic was coming across in the actual book in the draft. So what had gone wrong? What had I missed in the storytelling? And so that set in chain a long process of trying to find what was what was the catalyst for that magic. And I was in I was this is now probably eight or nine years after the actual walk. I've been working on this, you know, on and off for years. And I was in Kathmandu and a friend of mine there who was an editor. She said, well, let me take a read of the book and and we can talk about it and see see if I can give any advice or help. And a few days later, she called me back and said, okay, well, it's, you know, let's let's have dinner and chat about this and we went out to dinner. She came and she had 10 pages of notes and she was thinking, wow, that's fantastic, you know, she's really she's really read the text closely, which is of course what you want of a editor. And then she then it turned out that those 10 pages of notes were on the first few pages of the book. So she wrote the book very intently. And I thought, wow, this is, you know, this is going to be very long conversation and it was. But when we break it down, what she was saying was that, you know, this is an incredible story. But she thought there was something else going on in the background that I hadn't tapped into. And then a few days later, I was I was in my hotel room in in Kathmandu and and I was actually working on that section where I reach the source of Ganga Mai at Galmok. And I do quite a bit of meditation around my writing time to clear my head and prepare myself for the next section that I'll be working on. And I'd come out of this meditation after reading that section. And I had this overwhelming sense of Deja Vu. I had been there before. I had been to that place before. I'd somehow been there to to Galmok. And then I felt no, I hadn't been there exactly, but there was something about the light that half light that you get just as the sun is starting to set. And there was, you know, there was that particular cool era that you get coming off a glacier. And it was completely still, you know, it was 4,500 meters up in the Himalayas. And there wasn't a breath of wind. And I was thinking, wow. And then all of a sudden in a flash, it came back to me. I had been in that situation in that type of an environment before. And it had been when I'd seen my brother's body dead in a hospital in Morgan, Canada. It took days to find my brother's body at the bottom of that lake. And the Navy divers brought him up and they brought him to the morgue and we had to identify him. I'll never forget going there and looking into his face. And he was, you know, a blue white complexion. But he had the tiniest of smiles on his face. And that was extremely comforting for me. But it was that light that you get in hospitals, that fluorescent light and the coolness that you have in the work and the complete silence around us that brought me back to Galmuk and to the source. And I realized this, you know, like a rainbow flash that, of course, you know, this walk in this book, you know, it wasn't just about the Himalayas and me. It wasn't about Flora and Fauna and meteorology and geology and religion and landscape and spirituality. It was about, it was about the personal story, the universal narrative that we all have to overcome in this life, that we all have to accept in this life. And that's the passing of a loved one and we're to find the energy to move on from that. And when I realized that, when I realized that this was actually about overcoming grief, I went back and with so much energy, I went back into the text again. And all of these little moments, so many of these little moments that were magical, you know, interactions with people and landscape and events actually had relationships back to moments that Gareth and I had spent together. And that's when I realized that the walk really wasn't about me as a young guy, fed and full of ego, being the first person to walk across the Himalayas alone. It was really about, again, that universal narrative that we all have to face in this life, about coming to terms with the death of a loved one. That's beautiful. Jonah, that's really beautiful and clearly, clearly shows in the book as well. It's real. It's real. It's vulnerable. Everything that you mentioned right from grief, to compassion, to love, to faith, right? At the end of the day, it's getting that faith back and overcoming. I think that's all, all of the emotions and all of the feelings that one gets while you're going through this book and I really, really loved it that you made it. So readable and easy to, like, at times it does feel because even the way you've put out the book, the layout of the book, it's almost like a journal. But at the same time, there's so many different layers within, like you mentioned, right? There is that personal nature to it. There is the Himalayas, sometimes at the foreground, sometimes at the background. There is the people. There's the interactions. All of which I think come about beautifully in the book and really, really hats off to you for kind of capturing that and no wonder that it took so many iterations and so many years, what, 12 years you're saying by the time the book came out, right? No wonder. And I'm glad that I could get a, get my hands on the copy of the book and, you know, one more time. It was a pleasure talking to you for all the beautiful moments that you kind of touched upon during the conversation. These beautiful moments that I experienced while reading the book for the past couple of weeks. And for all the magic, I guess, that's all I could say, for having us, or giving us an opportunity to kind of feel that magic as you weave your way through the Himalayas right from Pakistan to India. Thank you so much, John. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast. So if it's been a great pleasure chatting with you today and it's just, again, it's great to connect with all my friends in India and I'm just so so happy that the book is out in India and that people are again engaging with this story. Thank you so much. Thank you, Johnal. Thank you so much, Johnal. Thank you, Johnal. Until then, happy travels and goodbye. Hey there. Love sports, bold stories and big personalities. Then you'll love serving it up with Sanya. Hosted by it and it's legend, Sanya Mirza. IVM podcasts latest show brings you Candid. No filter conversations with the biggest names in spot and entertainment. Check out this moment from her episode with the one and only current Johar. You had both of us actually have been raised by two parents and there was usually one bad cop and good cop and in my case as well, my father was the good cop. He's the good cop and my mom was the bad cop and she was the one who was disciplining. And we both are at a stage in our lives where we are single parenting. Me to a large extent and you almost fully right and you do have your mom who helps you but tell us a little bit about that because yours was actually by choice. I think it was something I've always wanted. I feel like I'm inherently a parent even when I wasn't. I've always had you know feelings of paternal instincts towards the kids I've worked with in the movies or the kids I've mentored as a director. Like Alia, Varun. Alia and Varun and all of them and like I just felt I always wanted but I somehow knew that it was a decision I had to take along with my mom and when I said it to her when I felt I was fully emotionally equipped to be a parent I asked her and to my share and utter joy she was like I can't wait and I feel like it's daunting for me because I'm an only child and a single parent and it's a double whammy because my mom's not been keeping really good health in the last year. She had a stroke last December and from then on she's not been able to do what she was doing as a co-parent she's also 83 years old so it is not easy you know that you know and I have twins so I have double the issues I'm the only dad on two WhatsApp mom's do I'm the one who has to schedule their lives give the time and balance it by running a company and be there for my mom it's all yeah overall overwhelming but that joy of just having that love being the proud recipient of the love when they come and give you that hug and and it doesn't matter to them and I'm sad to say this but it's I never want them to be unwell I always have to be happy but the moment they hug you when they have a tear in that eye and you feel like you that because now kids have stopped hugging the way they used to and they were three and four now you're too big for that love yeah because I want and I am there's nothing doing because I am like my dad my dad was tactile wanted the hugs and kisses and I desired and you want I want to be hugged and they meet me but when they need you and they are feeling vulnerable and they give you that hug that's to be heaven yeah that moment of that child in your arms and you hold them tight and and just hug them with your core I feel like I don't know what heaven feels like but that to me is my heaven yeah no same and for me as well I think the whole the whole single parenting yes it is hard but also because we're working and we do so many different things but you know I've seen the flip sides on yeah it's actually liberating because you're not at crossroads with anybody else like everybody else when you're not yeah yeah yeah yeah I know well well I know that's why I don't have that flip side your well cross border is well so I mean you have a situation which is even more daunting and overwhelming but in my end I feel actually I'm blessed yeah of course because I feel you know when my twins were being born and when they were born I had a hundred people give me pieces of advice on parenting twins or reading books hearing podcasts I did nothing I was like we are blessed with what we call a superpower it's called instinct your instinct as a parent kicks in and it's your instinct is different from every other situation and parents and there is no right or wrong way it is your way and over parent there's something called over parenting yeah I am not an over parenting but I do find a challenging to leave him like now when I'm here you know because I live in Dubai and I feel the same when I have to travel that's the biggest challenge for me like to stay away right like for a period of one week then I have to like obviously just like your mom comes in my mom and what a blessing like right now she's with him because I'm you know working for this one week and I'm here and I won't see him and that for me is the hardest part anything else I'm fine with but you know sometimes that we'll also make him more independent I always see the plus in everything instead of worrying about the minuses I feel there are big pluses in every extreme search situation like the big plus here is that your son and my twins will be very very independent and they'll be strong and they'll be resilient yeah and that's something that I would wish for all of them like we say inshallah we really really hope for that to happen last couple of questions both of us have been in the public eye or spotlight if you say for many years now and I was very young I was like 15 16 you were as well and it's hard I mean single parenting all of this stuff but also having romantic relationships is hard yeah how do you feel do you feel that how have you made peace with the fact that you are today your single you know to your single or we think you're single okay my strategy is your status is single okay your official status public status is single no my real status single so have you made a peace with that that you know you're okay with it yeah there is a line in another song which I like to see who you don't get here in the game I'm okay now there was a point of time I really wanted the love I wanted the partnership I remember talking about this I wanted a relationship and I went through all kinds of dynamics a broken heart one sided love I even made a film on it that was cathartic but beautiful for me I it helped me heal I waited I realized that is somebody going to love me for who I am or what I bring to the table then you come on with doubt then everyone says oh put yourself out there I'm still looking for that there I don't know where that there that is it's somewhere oh go abroad they say like you know abroad but I need you know you know you know what I brought by abroad I live here I have a mom and two kids I have to live here so I've gone through those beats and I don't get lonely it's not it's a reality when you know when you get the loneliness is in your highs yeah not in your lows actually because in your lows you have your mom you have your family yeah I have two cousin sisters I'm very close to my best friends I have my my family my friends my kids just to hug in your highs what you do like you celebrate a victory like I remember I got a call saying you won the national award and I put the phone down and for one I kept thinking what should I do tonight who's house do I go to who do I sit with and who's hand do I hold who do I feel that I feel little bit I should pat my back today and feel a little happy it's those moments you know when I went to receive the national award they asked me who's your plus one and I had no one I had no one like Apura was winning it who's my partner at work and my best friend and he was bringing his wife everybody was discussing with their partner I mean you know whoever my mom is not physically capable of coming and my kids are too young and I was like how it just felt that reality with and many a night you sit at home when you're eating alone eating alone is the other thing that makes you feel a bit lonely and you're I'm saying yeah because I'm relating to a lot over your thing and anytime I don't even go to the dining table sanja because that makes me feel worse so I eat in my room like I know they say you shouldn't lie down and eat and you should sit and eat but I sit up like this they have a table they put my food on it and I eat and I always bought something so I can actually dilute the emptiness of the moment of the loneliness of that being because I've come to realize that I'm okay today I'm I've dealt with it but yes the love of a partner the sharing the nothings of your day or the highs of your life with is very different from what you get from a parent a sibling or a child that love and it's not the intimacy or the sex it's just the partnership that you form it's almost a friendship and the the companionship right that's what you're talking about meant actually to be a unit of two yeah you know real true love comes from a partner that you have you know whether it was the beginning in origin of man and woman or man and man or woman and woman and whatever the dynamic today is but we are meant to a unit of two and then we go and create a family yeah but this real unit is of two we were never meant to fly solo no matter what we were created in pairs yes yes we are and we are yeah but now we're up to you Jodi mirilini manai but maybe maybe not yet and they say never say never yeah it's that happens my arms are wide open like Charo Khan yeah you know i'm willing to welcome you know i've told the best love stories i so loved but unfortunately i didn't buy it myself love what you just heard that's only the beginning catch the full episode of serving it up with sania now streaming on youtube all major audio platforms and on mintra glam stream don't forget to follow the show and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode you