Intimate Consumption and Brazilian Waxing, with Carol Zanette

[Music] Welcome to Frisky, a podcast on everything marketing and sexuality with Danila and Athmosia. Hi everyone, welcome. Today we have a very special guest in the room with us this time. Coral Zanetti, associate professor Adneoma Business School in France and very dear friend and co-author. Welcome, Coral. Thank you for joining us. Thanks, ladies. I'm very happy to be here in Liverpool and enjoying the sun, which is I don't think that often, then we can say that. Only for you, Coral. Only for you. It's very sunny in Liverpool and we're excited to have you with us. Coral wrote one of the chapters in our edited book on sexuality and marketing and consumption around waxing, Brazilian waxing. And we're really excited to hear your thoughts about your research in that area. If you can tell us a little bit more about the chapter and your motivation to work on this project. Okay, so I owe the idea of the chapter to my co-author, Dianis Caraboto. And we have been doing research about the body and the grooming of the body and the modifications of the women's bodies for some time now. And she came up with this idea of Brazilian waxing and now it's like, yes, that's something that I really would like to investigate. It's a different research topic. You don't see a lot of people talking about this intimate research questions and areas. And when she, when we started talking about it, basically, she said, yeah, we could have something about the intersection of empowerment and oppression and all the gender ideas behind it. But to be honest, we sort of already did this paper with another paper that we did together about shapework. And we did not want to have the same paper. And so we started discussing about like, what about women who do the waxing, right, the workers? And so we started reading about it and there are a couple of other works that have investigated and interviewed, you know, women who do waxing. And when we were reading about this, we also started reading about the history of waxing. And we thought that there is this huge colonial mindset that sort of plays out in different aspects of the waxing process from the, again, this empowerment, oppression like is waxing being powered or not, but also ideals of like the body with no hair and the body with hair. And how it is ingrained in the Brazilian imaginary in the country, but also the Brazilian stereotype outside of Brazil. And how in the end we see this workers, more or less, reproducing these imaginary in their practices when they're dealing with clients, Western clients, or in Brazil, which we sort of have this tension between the upper classes and the lower classes, which is a tension that has been discussed in other works in the city, for example, in Turkey. And we still have this sort of plays out also in the service. The chapter is just a literature review. We aim one day, hopefully, to interview the workers they end if you listen to this, promising this year we're going to go back to that. And that's it. I mean, it's a to-be continued work. I can personally say that when you sent the bitch for the chapter, I realized how I disconnected the Brazilian as the waxing practice from Brazil, the country, as much as you have these labels like Hollywood, you know, all these tags that the grooming industry puts on certain ways of dealing with your body and sort of taking care, of yourself. And I completely disconnected from the Brazilian heritage and from, you know, the exactly what you said before the post-colonial implications of that. So for me, your chapter was a bit of a aha moment of how many things in our day-to-day consumption have this sort of legacy that we kind of don't see it straight away. So my question to you is, where is the Brazilian waxing coming from? What is this story in three minutes, even less? Three words. I think that pretty much with everything that still is in our consumption, Fimeo, gendered practices, is acts in the city, right? We owe too much to that show for the good and the bad. But it was this episode and I don't remember which one probably was meant has to be meant which one of them exactly decided to go like, oh, this Brazilian waxing, which is this idea that you wax it all, right? And then, you know, the whole episode is about this and they, I don't remember if they mentioned in the episode or I, but I, or it's just like something that was also going on at the time that there was this, this beauty salon that was from founded by seven Brazilian sisters, the J-Sisters because they're all their first names, Tarte, J. And they sort of starting having, putting this type of waxing in the market. And we read, they wrote a book, you know, like, it's not an amazing book, but like an entrepreneurial book and how our like, Brazilians connecting with North American clients. And so they in the book, they tell it a bit the start of how they sort of started as a Brazilian waxing and sex in the city was a show that used to see what was trained in and transform into material for the show. And so they did this with this idea of Brazilian waxing. We're talking about early 2000s, which is sex in the city. And one of the things that is interesting is that for us as Brazilians, because I don't know if we were, we introduced myself to the artists, but both cultures myself and, and I, and we are Brazilians, for us, this is like self, self-evident, right? When you wax, you wax it all. And it's, it's usually when, when you are in Brazil, it's sort of the opposite to know that in other countries, that's not usually the case. So it's like, oh really, people don't do it. And how do you go? I mean, also in Brazil you have this bikini culture, you are at the beach. And you know, the bikinis are smaller than the rest of the road. So you, you have to be waxed. And so when we find out that when we move countries and we found out that this is not like a standard practice elsewhere for us, it's also like a shock, you know. And this, I feel that this permeates the, the chapter. And I try to make this permeate my work in general, which is like, yeah, I mean, you, you, last turns, see us Brazilians, as sort of like exotic, but chew us like whatever your practices are also very different and we are also shocked. And there's this whole point of cleanness that we discuss in the chapter as well. How coloniality and otherness and sameness, cleanness or hygiene or standards of it really define this boundaries in historically, right? I remember the sex on the city episode with the Brazilian waxing. And the tagline, one of the most famous ones wasn't it that you are working sex. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is quite interesting than linking the Brazilian waxing practice with sexuality and with women's sexuality and desirability to the male gaze in a sense. How is the male gaze in the Western context influences in European and women's desire to get the Brazilian waxing? Well, I, I, in the chapter, I mean, we don't never interviewed consumers about it, but for what we saw also there because the colonial imaginary also sort of was picked up by Brazilians, right? When, when Brazil sells its image, it's sells sexuality. You think about Brazil, you think about carnival and you think about, you know, someone naked or almost naked. And this is also something that has been challenging in Brazil right now, specifically this carnival mulata figure. Molata is a very heavy word that we should not be using but was So during years and years and years in Brazil like we had this Carnival is a big big thing there and the main television the main television channel Global for decades they had this like fignette with and used to elect the Molata of the year the Molata Global is and She was always naked and was a very sexualized and this is like the image of Brazil that is so abroad and to even to Brazilian elites right conveying like the popular culture to the elites and now has been challenged The word Should not be used anymore as an offensive word They have been you know not putting at least on the main channel the naked lady Anymore, I don't even know if they did have any at this year. So This this happens quite a lot even like Brazilians selling days and Which is this internalized version of otherness that is soared and commercialized and I feel like yeah There is a gaze that the Brazilian woman is sexy and sexualized and When it's so like this and when workers themselves they pass this idea through to their clients, right? I'm I'm gonna give you advice on how to do good sex now that you will have You are well in sex It definitely plays a role but on the other hand Is a role that it's not good for Brazilian immigrant women that are out there and we have another Paper Tart is on our now that we sort of talk about this like how this sexualized image of the Brazilian Women it affects the lives of Brazilian immigrants out there because it's sort of like people put you in this stereotype Right away, so yeah Do you think that I'm really fascinated do you think that the workers are still now reproducing this idea or It's something that was more at the say beginning from the original moment of the popularity of the Brazilian so what I'm thinking is in my own experience that the waxing room is a space of intimacy with the worker like you're letting someone else get really close to your body and There are very topics about you know feeling clean or feeling proper and all that but also it can get Very intimate you discuss about your private life and what is going on Because that space it is one of those professions that really deal with your body, you know and and in that very kind of direct way, so Do you think that becoming a sex counselor is something that Workers are interested in doing or is something that Has been happening at that point in time and not reproducing animal no So that's why we need to go to the field right now, right because the works that we read and again We have read this book about the chase is theirs and there was this one wexer and she did this book Basically about the funny things that happened and she was a Brazilian lady also in the US And this is all this early 2000s There was a change in Sexuality and how sexual it is perceived in this last 20 years for sure So we need to go and ask I can say my own personal perception of like as a customer Is that in Brazil I feel like this conversations? Are very like even the professional sometimes initiates that right they they It's more open and here in Europe. I feel like when you go to do whatever not just waxing but like their nails your hair There is less The connection is not like the connection between customer and professional It's just different there is not this openness this almost Automate intimacy that okay, you're gonna be discussing sexuality very open with people you don't know for like an hour and This is not necessarily a good thing because as we read and a literature review for the chapter There's also a form of like on paid care work if you want to say like the professional is Sometimes opening her own life to please the customer and does she really want this or she's just performing it? So it's it's problematic as well, but it's sort of like what creates the connections or spreads the practice But that for that I think that we would need to and that's what we want to do interview Brazilian professionals outside of Brazil in Europe and in Australia That's quite interesting to consider also the emotional labor that the service provider is Doing during that moment because guess there is this level of intimacy of bodies bodies coming together and the consumer the customer is in the more vulnerable position You're naked You're in pain, which is a quite interesting situation to find yourself in that you don't necessarily do in service contexts and Then the professional is also in an intimate position especially when they do this type of emotional or care labor and most often it's women that do this type of service work and other women that are the recipients of the service provision in a sense, so it's quite interesting to unpack these dynamics and when you're talking about immigrant women with Western clients and also with Brazilian clients. I think that that's that will be really interesting to see your findings from that stage of your research If you know anyone that does type of work and you want to want to talk to us, please I like how you extend it also to other fields such as the one of nails for example, which is another industry Where many immigrant women work for example, so it is quite evident how We need to acknowledge that sort of emotional labor as well, but the level of intimacy that is built Just because like you're putting your hands into someone and in someone's hands for an hour and your own body into someone hands for like you know even more than an hour Definitely interesting and something I was thinking how are the J aware the J sisters Promoting the Brazilian like what were the aspects of the Brazilians that were kind of the Brazilian walks in That were salient for them If you read the book is exactly the sexual sexuality thing, you know like be the Brazilian God as playing quite a lot of this colonial image But they did not have only waxing they had like the whole thing right is the I don't know how do you call this in the UK? But in France they call the Brazilian Lissage Brazilians. It's really like the Brazilian straightening So it's called like this in France and I I What is that the carrot and treatment to straighten your hair? Just like really really straight and the Brazilian nails which is like you go Tip tip tip tip down with your cuticle so you know there's like a whole way of doing This Brazilian beauty and they were really selling this as a this imaginary of the Brazilian girl. I don't know if they had also a fake tanning or whatever, but I know that that when you read the book, that's what they want you to promote Brazilian allure and sexiness and Which again is really about how this internalized the image When internalized all the illness that you sort of sell I don't know if In Greece in the tourist industry you probably also have something like this and before some part of Italy also Yeah, definitely is the sort of romance and Yeah, romance and romancing is part of the identity right which is Marketed of salt like and many products in many industries that are like connected to Italian identity As an anecdote I once went to salon that offer like a British bikini I still have to figure out what a British bikini would be about. I guess a very limited waxing. I don't know But this is the western Dake on on the topic Yeah, it's quite interesting to see how these ideas or beauty ideals are Communicated to mass audiences you mentioned the Brazilian manicure which resembles the Russian manicure that is now Becoming extremely popular on social medium which is basically Working on your cuticles which is something, for example, in Greece. They don't call it the "Vasjan Manikir", it's just a simple manikir. But then these labels become popular, and for example, in platforms like TikTok, you have a lot of conversations around these types of grooming practices that become popular, and then a lot of Western women start to adopt these types of grooming practices that they would otherwise. And then you have countries where they are very self-evident. But how do you think that social media are changing the way that we're talking about body modifications or body grooming practices now, if you compare that to Sex and the City, and the popularity of these practices back then? - Well, then again, this is working progress. Hopefully it's going to be there, but we have this study that we are really trying to understand how women consumers, they call them women, they engage with dieting and exercise routines in relation to what they see, and how influencers they do it. Because yes, Sex and the City, you have like one element and one episode and say, "Oh, this exists, and this is cool." But when we go to influencers TikTok, and now since we have this shift from social to media, in socials, have all this micro-trans and they are so, so many details on how to which product, all the process and repetition, because then you got like the influencers that are basically someone just taking their criticals every day, and all their content is about it. I'm pretty sure that I never have seen one, but I'm pretty sure that we've researched for it, we're gonna find it, right? And so there's this huge exposure and a how to, that is so detailed, but at the same time, especially with TikTok, and this is not connected to my research, it's like what we see, the micro-trans, there are so ephemeral, right? It's like one week you have this, and another week we have that, and this is complicated for, I feel like consumers who try to know what should I follow now, because at the end, they end up following the following, is the trend itself that becomes the goal. So it's complicated, I don't know if I have an answer for this, but also we have those in peak now, which is also, it's a phenomenon, but it's also a micro trend that some sort, and then I, the very speculative, but since we are in this, I don't know if we can talk about politics in this podcast. Of course, okay. So I don't know if you saw this, but a lot of people discussing fashion right now, is like some almost fascist fashion, right? Because we are entering in a moment where women should be sober, clean girl, out of money, but mayon they can display these objects of luxury. So big gotchas now, big cars, cool, but women, they should be discreet, and this sort of affects the body practices as well. How are we going to do new or new art? Or, yeah, we are in a very weird and complicated situation, how young women, where they're into fine inspiration to behave, you know. So it's quite interesting to see the rise of conservative fashion with people removing their tattoos, for example, and adopting this clean, aesthetic that you've mentioned. And I feel like one, one thing that, again, when you talk about body modification, during research and body modification, you are always go back to the Kardashians as well, you know, because at the end of the day, there are still, and a couple of years ago, like four or five years ago, everyone was putting and enhancing their, you know, their boots. - Mm-hmm. - Ready? Right? - To have like all those hips. - Big hips. - Big hips, hip, yeah, but it's not a hip. Now this probably will have to be added. How do I say this? Like the BBBL? - No. - Yeah, BBBL. - The BBBL. Everyone's doing the BBBLs, right? And everyone's taking it off, because, you know, hashes, you know, the familial body is cannot be exuberant anymore, has to be discreet and he did. So, you know, Tina is his bag, and I think to me, is insane how people just put implants, and then they take implants as if they were putting up the surgery, you know, like, it's a surgery. So, yeah, it's, this is something, I don't, I don't know, many studies in plastic surgery, and especially in aesthetic treatments, and I really would like to see a little bit more of them, because it's also insane and huge. And sometimes I'm quite shocked how people are changing their faces, and their bodies with this, with the pace of the micro trends, you know. - As we speak, I was thinking that, because we all do consumer research, we are really working in a spectrum, right, between, so, aesthetic treatments, such as waxing, and doing your nails, are in a spectrum with all the body modifications, because it's part of the same world. But we tend to focus more often on, you know, the splastic surgery, which is probably, you know, the one of the extremes, but like, there are all these midways and more routine-ery ways of doing body modification, like of which nails, and hair, and grooming, as part of, right? Do you think that, going back to the example of the Brazilian, because as you were speaking, I was thinking about the context up there, 2000, so was that almost like the opposite context, where like the female body could take more space? Was there something about the context for the Brazilian to become so relevant? I think politically, Brazil was in a moment that was going out there, right? So, we had the first term of President Lula, and I think he did something interesting for the image of the country. We had, 'cause, like, a little bit of history, so Brazil has been through this military dictatorship in the '60s until the mid '80s, and then we have been through an interesting political times in the '80s with the hyperinflation of like, even a thousand percent in a month, it was very, very crazy. I remembered as when I was a kid, and then in the '90s, we had the Finanthian Hicca Dozo that brought some economic stabilization for the country. A couple of, like, we got the World Cup in 1994, we lost the 1998, traumatic, but like, we're still, and then we got it again in 2002. So, this, you know, the World Cups, plus Lula, plus, you know, the economy is sort of growing, and then, aio, a noyo boom in Brazil also, and early 2000s, so a lot of things were going that I think Brazil was becoming interesting in the international scene, and I feel like this displayed a role of like, okay, this country is, it's interesting, people are talking about it in media a little bit more, and then we had both sonato years, and yeah, not that interesting anymore, and I feel like now maybe, without, in terms of movies, it's sort of gaining a revival in terms of culture, but I feel like the early 2000s, there was this specifically about Brazil, also I feel like we were living some sort of optimistic era and over-consumption era, right? So I'm thinking JCR's paper, Cusco de Ravoli's paper that she tells the story of American neoliberalism, and it was the moment when Bush said go out there and shop, so people were trying like, what can I shop that is interesting? And there were, I don't know if like feminist movements, but I think that is what we call this this worth way feminist, if you can call it, is more post-me too, but still through consumption, you have this choice feminism going, not political, but like sexual, and maybe gentick going on, this is more like the factors that I see that made Brazilian vaccine, I think. Brilliant. And this is so good. I mean, I feel like we could talk about waxing practices for a while with some very private anecdotes and maybe we will after this recording. So thank you so much, Carl, for joining us today. And we will link the chapter in our podcast. And of course, we're waiting for more of this research because it sounds fascinating. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me. And thank you everyone for listening and hopefully we'll be back next week with another special guest. Thank you. Thank you.