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When Nathan Nicholson cashed in his 401k to start buying real estate, people told him he would fail. They said he'd lose everything. But today, he owns 23 rental properties, generating more than $100,000 in annual cash flow. Nathan was 33 and the top salesperson at his company. But years of top performance still left him with only $30,000 in his savings account, hardly enough to dream about retirement. So Nathan liquidated his retirement fund, and he started buying rental properties in his hometown of Louisville, Kentucky. They were little brick houses, most of them under $100.000. That was 13 years ago. Now, Nathan generates six figures every year after all his bills are paid, and his financial future is secure. It's a simple formula. Buy the smallest house possible, fix it up, and watch the monthly rent checks roll in. Nathan's approach is so boring that he actually calls himself the tortoise. But don't let that confuse you. This strategy absolutely works. And today, he's sharing his exact repeatable formula. The one rule he never breaks, how he's managed to pay off 10 properties even as he scales, and how he's pivoted his strategy for 2026. What's up, everyone? I'm Dave Meyer, Chief Investment Officer at Bigger Pockets. Thank you all for being here. We got a great show for you today. We're bringing on Nathan Nicholson, who is one of the most popular Bigger Pockets guests in 2025. You can hear his full story by going back and listening to episode 1132 from last June. But today, he's back with an update what he's been up to, how he's pivoting to make the most of current market conditions. So let's bring on Nathan. Nathan, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. Great to have you here. Yeah, thank you for having me. Some of our audience may not have listened to your first appearance here on the show. So maybe just give us a little bit of background about yourself and your investing career. Yeah, my investing career, I mean, from the prior podcast, it was how to basically make money with $100,000 or less rentals, and I'll honesty with you. And so realistically, my my beginning is kind of happened with me really just realizing I have to do something different at the age of 33, been a top salesperson and only having about 30 grand in my check in a cow. Go man, if I'm really good at sales, why don't I get 30,000 dollars in my check in account and go and what can I do? And I had a couple of friends of mine basically talked about real estate investing and what they were doing. And so I sold my 401k off, took every penny I had, had had a dream to say the least and put all my money into real estate at that time and just kind of been doing it ever since. So that's been about 13 to 14 years at this point. Tell us a little bit about what your portfolio looks like here today. Yeah, I mean, from the last time we spoke, it's grown a little bit. I'm sitting at 23 properties, all single family residents at this point. And about the payoff, my 11th house, so I've got 10 free and clear. Oh wow. And I just literally sent the wire on Fridays, I'm paying off a little two bedroom house that will net me about 600 a month. But beyond that, I mean, as far as my breakdown, my rents have gone up, my total cash flow has been going up because I've been trying to assure if I'm my property business, but my rents are at about 311,000 right now, total cash flow. Wow. That's total in is 143. And my true net, which is what I go by, I don't say cash, well, I'll go by true net. True net is $112,000 right now. And I think the last time we spoke, it was about a hundred is it fair to say then, then you reinvest 100% of your cash flow back into some sort of business, even if it's not for acquisition of your next rent bill. 100% yeah. Is that hard for you? Do you ever get tempted to just live off of it or you're still in growth mode? I mean, it's, you know, I'm the tourist investor, right? I'm very conservative. So to your point, I thought about it, I'm 46 years old. I would love to retire at 55. I mean, I could probably retire now, but at the same time, it's one of those things where it's like, I haven't really accomplished really what I want to do yet. I think most investors will tell you the same thing. It's like I have not reached that that that spot and that spot is coming. But yes, that's what I'm going towards. But at 55, I think I'll be there. I really want to be at 30 doors and have about 20 of them paid off before I really go full on real estate. And that's at about 55 for me. Okay. I love the goal. It seems very achievable and you're well on your way. Maybe before we talk about just what you've been up to recently, you can remind everyone how you got here. Because this is where most people want to get to 10 paid off rentals, incredible nine grand a month and cash flow. Amazing. Like what was the primary strategy you used to get your portfolio to the size? Being really safe is the best way to put it. I took a little bit of leverage in the very beginning. I took quite a bit of risk. I cashed out my 401k. A lot of people will tell you not to do it. But if you don't have any money, it's the only thing that you could use your miles will do it because it's the only thing you got available. And that's what I did. It was very risky. And a lot of people told me that I would fail. I mean, it's weird how your friends and people around you will say, you're going to fail. You're going to lose everything. But in situations like this, if you believe in yourself, it really does help. And I mean 13 years, 14 years ago, that was the catalyst. It was a dream and that and me cashing that 401k out and just playing it very conservative. I mean, I'm a tortoise. I mean, you'll hear people use this terminology turtle or the hair. I literally will not move forward unless I have cash flow to cover my expenses. And so I've really stayed true to that. And so that goes back to the first property. If you only make 300 a month, well, that's 3600 a year. What do I do with that? You leverage it to 7200 to 11,000 to 12,000 to 15,000. You keep slowly pushing that forward. And that's very beneficial. But that's why I've been able to do this at the right that I have and actually have 10 to 11 paid off properties is because of following that same process. I love the philosophy. Subscribe to the same one myself. You know, it sounds patient and slow. And you're talking, you're saying all the things I agree with that you should be slow and just take your time with it. But it's really not that slow. You said you've been doing this for 13 or 14 years, going from where you were, which sounds like not necessarily terrible place financially, but not where you wanted to be and not having the level of savings that you wanted, not having the nest egg that you wanted to being pretty darn close to financially free. If you kind of wanted to go in that direction in 12, 13 years, that's incredible. It takes most people. It's very fast actually. 40 years plus to do that. If you do it at all, so many people never accomplished that. So I think what we're saying is patient and real estate is still faster than almost any other avenue to pursue this kind of financial security. Nate, tell us a little bit about how you did the finance. Because you said you started with 401k, you know, you cash that out, you can't buy 22 properties in that. So we're just saving in between acquisitions and reinvesting cash flow. Where's there something more you were doing? Before I won cash, I started buying the houses with cash up front because my concept was a domino effect. I wanted the dominoes to fall on a way that made me more money. And also like a cat with a laser pointer, I wanted to have a toy to play with because I didn't know what I was doing. You know, I literally did not know. And so the best, the best course of action was to pay off my first house. And it was in a state cell for about $40,000. Give or take 38. And I paid it off cash and it was livable. And then once I started running out of that cash, I started putting 20% down. I was doing renovation loans. Those are two or three Ks in the mortgage road. A lot of people used those. And that helped me out with a couple of them at the very beginning. But then what I realized real quick was, you know, I wanted to have a better kind of loan set. And so I started doing single family residents and using my personal credit and putting 20% down. So I'm a stonch proponent of 20% down. It's almost one of the only ways you can cash flow a property properly right now is what 20% unless you get a really good deal on a bird deal that you're doing. You've never like gone and raised outside capital. You've just figured out a way to do it with a W2 income, right, saving and relationships with banks like you were able to just over 13 years build a very impressive portfolio sort of the old fashioned way. The old fashioned way. Yeah, correct. And I know a lot of people do race capital. And that's a very good way to go about it, right? That's your lending structure. But what I what I figured out is you have to be a cash buyer to get these houses these days. And so my whole motivation once I figured that out was to pay my properties off as fast as I could because you know, unlike a he lock or a line of credit on a personal house, you know, you could put it on your home and use it to buy houses right and have that liquid. But you could also get business lines of credit. And that's kind of my focus of what I've done. So every time I pay a property off, I refinance it and put it on my line. It has zero money on it. But my line of credit might increase like this property. I'm about to pay off. I'll get another extra $100,000 on my line of credit. And then I have a million dollars in a line of credit on 10 properties individually in the line. And I could use that to buy by houses as my own bank technically. That's how I got around crowdfunding is literally doing it that way. Slow and steady. But you can absolutely do that if you just take your time. We got to take a quick break. But when we come back Nathan, I'd love to talk to you more about what you're up to today and how you're making deals and your portfolio grow even during these challenging market conditions. Stick with us. We'll be right back. (upbeat music) - Welcome back to The Bigger Pockets Podcast. I'm here with investor, Nathan Nicholson, talking about his impressive career. He's built in Louisville, Kentucky over the last 13, 14 years. Now, we've alluded to it a few times. Everyone here listening to it knows it. The market has changed. It's different. And so, tell us a little bit about your approach here in 2026. - The first thing I would tell you is I'll be really focused on a 1.3 DSCR now. - Okay. - And that is the very true number. That's kind of your new 1% role is the best way to put it. And 1% is usually break even 1.3. You're gonna make a couple hundred dollars off of it a month. - And for everyone listening, if you're not familiar with the acronym, DSCR stands for debt service coverage ratio. It measures your debt service, basically what you're paying to your loan company every month versus your income. Different investors have different targets, but it sounds like Nate, yours is a 1.3. Some banks will land on different ratios, 1.1, sometimes 1.2. Nate looks for 1.3. If you're interested in getting a DSCR loan, there's all sorts of benefits to it. You don't have the same level of underwriting. Sometimes it can be a lot quicker. If you don't have a W2 income, you don't have necessarily the credit that most banks are looking for. These are loans that are underwritten like commercial loans, but are specifically designed for people like us. They are, these are loan products created for our kinds of investors. If you are a pro member, we do have discounts on DSCR loans. You can go check those out from Kiyavi at bigger pockets.com/pro. Go check those out. But so Nate, 1.3, right? So that's your number. That's getting you cash flow in Louisville. You find in 1.3 deals in Louisville right now? Not really. Even though you're not finding it, you're holding the line at 1.3. So you're not buying it still unless it's in 1.3. That's the way you got to do it. Yeah, you don't want to lose money. And so a lot of people will tell you appreciation is an approach and it is. It really is. You could get a 1% rule house, break even on it. They could have low cap X because it has new features, right, if you're doing a burr, whatever that you're doing, new floors, whatever. But at the same time, if you're barely making it and you have, I had a house, a rat house. I called it the rat house. It cost me $27,000 to repair this house. So a normal person wouldn't be able to absorb that. That's a huge hit. And without cash flow, I would have been hurt or anyone else would have been hurt. So yeah, the 1.3 rules really stood fast in my mind because that's what's gotten me here. I've really followed this approach from day one. But the other thing is the creative finance angle is, some people like sub two. I personally am not a sub two person. I know a lot of people that have a lot of positive things that have happened to them by doing sub two. I personally like owner financing on free and clear properties. I like doing the tricks that I just gave you with commercial financing. I like these little tricks because I'm in control. That is the one thing. A sub two, you don't always have control. The ways that I'm telling you, you have control. Your name's on the personal guarantee. You own the property, stuff of that nature. - This makes sense to me. First of all, your affinity to seller financing over sub two makes sense to me given you're just, what you've told me a little bit about your risk tolerance. - Contour those things. - Yeah, exactly. I'm not a sub two expert, but there is some gray areas in sub two that add risk. And it might be right for some people presuming that's done ethically and legally. There still are some gray areas. And those are things that you need to consider. - That is correct. - When you do seller finance, if someone owns a property outright and they're writing your loan, like that is very low risk, very high upside in my opinion. And although they're not the easiest to find, they're out there. Like I hear investors doing them all the time. So are you just acquiring those the same way you would do a wholesale? You're just doing direct to seller marketing. You're sending postcards, you're building websites. And that's why as you said, getting in front of the deal, you're trying to eliminate all the middlemen is essentially what you're saying. 'Cause I've worked with wholesalers. I have nothing against wholesalers, but they're charging a fee for their service as they should, it's a business. And I'm paying that fee. So I don't get the best possible price on that property because me, Dave Meyer, I am not willing to do the direct to seller marketing. I just don't do it. But you are saying by doing this direct to seller marketing, you're getting 10 grand off every single deal, which is hugely appealing. So maybe Henry talks about a lot in the show, but like what amount of effort does it take you to do this direct to seller marketing? And what amount of money does it take you to do this direct to seller marketing? You know, I don't spend a lot on the marketing. It's more for material like postcards, you know, getting list-created stuff like that, AI to generate lists. And a lot of that stuff, you can do very semi-achiebly. I mean, postcards, I just put an order in for 500 postcards and they're very niche, very specific. I design them myself. I do a lot of the work myself, actually, is the answer. And so I design my postcards. I put all the effort into it. I make the calls, I mail them out. I pay for the stamps. But in regard to only other efforts that's there is disposition, it's really just getting the information, calling the lead, having them call you, introduce yourself and then handing them off to a partner that could do disposition. So really, my focus is on less external effort because I'm a growth manager for a large company and I'm very busy doing that. And also the fact of risk. Flipping would make more money, but it's risky currently. And wholesaling is actually less risky than flipping currently. It is. And it also gives me the time with my kids because I have two very small kids that are in travel sports. And if anyone knows anything about travel sports. Oh my God. That's a lot of your time. Yeah, that's right. So just to prove that, I mean, Nathan's telling us that this is possible. Like if you want to go out and get the best possible prices, these are things that you can absolutely do. We're not going to get too much into the tactics here today, but we have tons of great episodes. Nathan obviously has some good advice. We had a recent episode with Andy Gill, who was talking about this. Henry talks about it all the time. But this is just a way that you can absolutely get good deals right now in this current market. It's absolutely something that you should consider. Absolutely. Nathan, one last question on this. Have you bought anything recently? Yeah, yeah. So there's two deals. One of them was a property that I got in a light fall. And it was the property I was referring to a little bit earlier. It was a four bedroom house. Roder was trying to sell it $125,000. I already had the drive-bod done on this property. And I purchased it. And anyway, to praise for about $170,000, $175, which allowed me to immediately-- Oh my god. --I purchased it with no money out of pocket. So you're just walking into like 50 grand in that. Yeah. Yeah, like almost $25,000. Yeah, right out the gate. And it didn't make any money due to the current rent with the tenant. But in the last six months, I have raised the rent twice. That's very not normal, right? But I had to start making money on this property. I was losing about $100 a month. And he was paying $800. And now he's at $1400. So now I'm making about $400 net a month after expenses in a period of six months with no money out of pocket. As that $1400, what market rent should be? So actually, it's lower than market rent. And I'm trying to help the family out. I met them when I walked the house and everything. And they're good people. And they maintained the house. So I told them $1400 was $200 less than what-- he would spend anywhere else any agreed. And so I left. OK. And I didn't want to lose them. He's a good, hard-working guy. And I didn't want to disrupt his family. But I did let him know that, obviously, this is the problem to come and be an investor. I let him know I have to make money. And this is where I needed to be. And he was able to do that. So I worked out. So clearly, you figured this out. And these are repeatable things. These are things that really everyone listening to this podcast can go out there and do. Now, Nathan, you mentioned-- you're not just looking for new deals. You're also trying to optimize your business and to make more out of what you already have, which is the name of the game right now. I mean, I always want to go out and buy more. But there's so many things going on in the market that make it increasingly important to pay attention to your operations. What are some of the strategies and tactics you're using to better your performance of the stuff you already got? Sure enough, the business is, I would say, one of the top priorities that I had this year in and on my board behind me is making sure that my business is running efficiently and that I can maximize cash flow. Because again, I'm trying to find ways to scale and build. So to your point, I mean, if my rent's with $311,000 right now, and my net cash flow is $112, well, the math that I did based on these four things that I'm going to tell you that I'm doing to kind of short my business will increase my cash flow by almost $30,000 to $40,000. That's not a small number. I mean, that's a lot of money. I mean, if you think of it that way, that's the equivalent of buying five, eight more houses. Like he has to look forward to it. Everyone's focused on acquisitions. Like, you know, just make your existing stuff do better and you don't have to take on as much work or figure out the financing or go out and find the deals. So I see the motivation there, 34 times. I get it. How are you doing it? There's four things that I've really been trying to focus on right now. And it was property management right, trying to figure out a way to get my cost lower, which at the time I was paying 12%. - Oh, that's high. - But, you know, I did move property majors and I saved 4%. So that, you know, right now I'm paying eight on my portfolio and I feel like that's fair compared to everyone in the lower market place. And so I saved 4% on $300,000 or rents, right? I mean, that's a huge amount of money. - How did that conversation go? - It is a hard discussion in general because it was very hard moving my properties. lots of people it was a major cordial and so it so I I earned that extra four percent as the best way to put it. But that will pay dividends for years. That's 12 grand a year that'll compound for for indefinitely. That's right. You know, and most things real state, I talk about this a lot in the show, you get what you pay for. How has the quality of your property management changed if it has since moving to a less expensive provider? So, you know, some things have changed, some things haven't. I actually feel like they're doing a really good job at 8%. He's a local gentleman has 250 to 300 doors. They're on top of it. So actually, I feel like I'm getting a lot for my money at this time. There are some different costs that I'm paying currently. But I think you're doing a really good job and all honesty and yeah, I do gotta do some things outside of it. But at 8%, it's worth it to me and all honesty with you. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. It's like is that worth 12 grand a year? That little bit of doing stuff and it sounds like the answer is yes. So, yes. That kind of sounds like a no brainer to me. So, I mean, that's a great thing for people to do just for our audience listening audit what you're paying for property management. You know, shop around comparison shop with everything you do these days from contractors to insurance to property managers. Henry and I talk about this. The spread between quotes is astronomical these days. It's insane. That's a 50% difference in property management fee from 8 to 12 percent, right? You were paying 50% above market rate and that's market rate. So, you'd even go into like a low cost provider that happens all across the business. Yeah. Stick with us. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the Bigger pockets podcast. I am here with Nathan Nicholson who's telling us about the portfolio he's built in Louisville, Kentucky. Talked about deal finding strategies and how he got started, but you said you've really turned your focus to just optimizing and making the most out of your existing portfolio. So, you said you were doing four things. Sounds like number one is you changed property manager. What was the next thing you did? The second thing is is that even in a market and so Louisville's kind of been depressed and rents and I think other markets may have this scenario happen as well. There's just less people running these houses. It's kind of wild, but Louisville's one of those markets. So, I still had a rent increase of 3 percent. So, on 23 houses at 3 percent, that raised me up another $8,000 a year right there. We've executed on I think 14 of them and the others have leases and we're going to be executing on those in the fall and there are still all underrun it to the market. So, the good news is I'm not above the market. I'm below it and that will actually give me quite a bit of extra equity and capital as well per year. So, if people aren't raising rent, or they feel like they're under, I always keep mine a little bit under, but the reality of the situation is trying to look to raise because rents have to go up. I mean, taxes are going up. Insurance is going up. Loss of liabilities going up. People are destroying houses that are much higher right now. It's time reason. I don't know why, but they were destroying your houses. So, you have to ask for those rent increases every year and be very stout about it. Raising rents, obviously, if the market will bear it and it's needed for your business, it's something to consider. But sometimes the market won't bear it. You can't just say, "Oh, my expense is 1 up 3%, so I'm raising rents 3%, if there's competition in the market and someone can find an equivalent property without that rent increase, they might go do that." So, it sounds like, though, you've been able to do that without issue. Pretty much all of them except for one house is running at this point. No one moved. One, the rat house is what I call the one that was destroyed. We put a lot of money into it. I tried to run it at 1150 for a two-better, made 100 square foot and movable. It's not taken right now. There's a lot of competition and the house is updated, fully updated. So, I've got it at a thousand, fifteen, it's still not going. So, that's a hundred dollar drop in this market on two beds in the last, I'd say four months. The market is not bearing it at this point, rents are dropping in this market place. I'm being very cognizant of that when I'm asking for these rents. But if a tenant does come back to me and a negotiate, I'm more than willing to negotiate in between. I generally do that, but we haven't had anyone really leave due to that because either it's too much and they say, "Hey, look, if you could take $50 off of the hundred that you're raising it, I'll stay and we'll just accept it." So, that's something that we've been doing to keep people in there. I think it's something for our audience to keep in mind. But you have to weigh in this market the risk of vacancy with the need to keep up with expenses because inflation is pushing up everything repairs maintenance taxes insurance everything, right? And as a business person, you have to keep pace with that. At the same time, tenants don't have to pay. They don't care what your business is. They don't care that your prices are going up. They have a budget. What they can afford, what they value your property at. That's why you just can't be overly aggressive. You have to find the sweet spot. 3% seems very reasonable to me. That's basically the pace of inflation. So, it's not crazy. But I sometimes hear people say things like, "Oh, my prices went up 10%, so I have to raise rents 10%. You don't have to." And first of all, you probably can't. You know, there is a limit to what you're able to do. So, you need to really think about how much the market can bear. And that can be through conversations with your tenants, talking to other investors, talking to property managers in your area. But this isn't just something like, "Oh, I should go raise rents because I want to." There is a consideration there. And I think you're doing a very reasonable job with it, Nathan. And what I would recommend for the majority of investors out there. Absolutely. All right. So, those are the first two. What's the third thing you've done to help your business perform on it? So, I've been focused on paying houses off to increase my capital that I could use to buy houses off market and wholesaling and stuff of that nature. You obviously have to be prepared to have cash. And so, obviously, the third thing is trying to find ways to pay off rentals quicker. And so, what I've been doing right now, I actually wired $56,000 to the bank. And I'm paying off a property on Lee's Lane that will net me about $600 a month. So, if you do the math on that, that's another $7,200, $8,000 a year right there to just pay a property off. And generally, what I do is I target the ones with the highest mortgage with the lowest cost to actually pay off. And so, when I do the math on paying off Lee's Lane, it's going to return right around 10%, which is a really good return. And that's why I'm paying that one off. So, that's the third thing that I've been really focused on. Tell me a little bit about just the strategy or because what you're saying makes sense, like I agree with this approach entirely. But at the same time, you've also talked a little bit about how you want to maximize the money you have for investing, right? And so, where's this philosophy shift? Is it just market conditions? Like, you're not seeing enough that you want to buy that so you have a little bit extra capital. You're like, where do I get the best return right now? So, the reason why this makes a lot of sense for also helping me in investing, say, wholesaling or having cash to do that is because when I pay this house off, immediately, I'm going to add it to my line of credit. So, not only do I get a paid off house that saves me $600 a month, but I'm also going to put it on my line of credit and get an extra $100,000 in capital added to my line of credit, which would be right around a million dollars at this point once I add that. So, it gives me twofold. It allows me more purchasing power to not have to crowdfund and just self fund this myself, but it also allows me leverage to make money while it sits there as well. So, it's twofold. Makes a lot of sense and you can always refinance it later if you want to either use a HELOC or whatever. Or sell it. Exactly. So, that's three out of the four. We talked about your PM costs, raising rents appropriately and paying off some rentals. What's the fourth thing you've done? My main focus this year is the wait for a rights to drop into five and a half range on either commercial or traditional financing or DSCR like Yavgis is a great place. I mean, Yavgis is a really good company. They do a really good job and you could use companies like that as well. But the thing is if you could refinance your house, say 23 houses, 10 of them are paid off and I can actually refinance 10 of them. And I have so much equity from the appreciation that's been happening that I could take that appreciation, pay off another two or three that are free and clear, and still net an extra 100 to $500 a month in cashflow with doing that. That is a huge proponent to what I'm trying to do right now. And if I do that and I do it smart, I should be able to pay off two houses and also save probably about $1,000 a month on that refinance. And I think that will be in a position to do that. Even if the rates higher. Yeah, even if the rates higher for if for instance, yeah, exactly. I think the rates will be in the five and a half to six and a quarter range. But if you buy it down a point, you should be in the room that you need it, which is about five, seven, five, give or take to six. All right. Well, yeah, if you could buy it down, you're more optimistic than I am about. Yeah, exactly. I'm not so sure about that. I hope you're right. I hope I'm wrong. Hope we can get there. We'll see what the market. I mean, there's a lot of things that are causing issues in the marketplace right now. But you know, the goal, the goal that I've heard was a one and a half percent Fed rate. And so we're at a three six to five. And I'm in the mortgage industry. So this is what I know very well. And so if we're at a three six to five and we needed that one and a half, I mean, if the rest of the world is at one and a half, we have to find a way to get that Fed rate down. And so they're really focused on that. So I am really, you know, leveraging my gambling hand here to say within the next hopefully 12 to 18 months, right? That's conservative. That's Thank you. point. If we could hit six, I think you would see a huge amount of people trying to refinance their properties. And I think that would be very smart for them to do that. And I'll honestly with you. Yeah. I mean, if we get to that rate, that makes a lot of sense to me. We'll just have to see if we can get to that rate, maybe 12 to 18 months. I'm not as optimistic this year about 2026 at least. Yeah. This year's rough. Well, Nathan, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for catching us up here. People want to connect with you. Where should they do that? Yeah. I mean, obviously you could find me online. It's real estate night. Bicell rent coaching is my business in Louisville, Kentucky. You could find me on social media too under the same exact search terms. So I'm on social media. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on everything that you could possibly think of. And I'll also on Google search and stuff of that nature. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here, Nathan. We really appreciate you. And thank you all for listening. Again, if you want to check out DSCR alone, some of the things Nathan was talking about in your bigger pockets pro member, go to bigger pockets dot com slash pro and check out the discounted rates we have for you. And we've negotiated for you through key avi. Also, if you want to learn more from people like Nathan, make sure to subscribe to the bigger pockets podcast or follow us on YouTube. So you never miss an episode. Thanks again for watching. I'm Dave Meyer and I'll see you guys next time.