Interview with Founder and CEO of Oat Haus – Ali Bonar

I think honestly our naivete has really helped us coming into the food space. And also we've made mistakes. I'm not saying it's everything, but I think even the way that I reach out to the whole food spire initially, normally you would hire a broker and they would take a commission and XYZ you would go through all these set processes that we know now being in the food space. But I think sometimes approaching things from a different angle can save you time, can save you money, can you know, I don't know, set you apart a little bit. Welcome to the Irresistible Factor, a podcast where I talk to founders and investors and retailers about what it takes to launch successful brands, from developing a compelling proposition and brand identity, to raising capital, to getting distribution and more. My name is Christy Bridges and I'm a marketing expert with tons of experience and a true love for all things health and wellness. Welcome to today's episode of the Irresistible Factor. I have a guest that I'm really excited about today. Her name is Ali Bonner and you may have heard of her. She is the founder and CEO of a brand called Oathouse and also quite an influencer in her own right. So really excited to have you on today to share your story, Ali. Yes, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me and thanks everyone for listening. So you can go in whatever order you want. Oathouse is obviously a really interesting brand of granola butters and you also have an interesting story that led you to the brand. So why don't we start with your story and how you wound up being a founder of this brand? Definitely. I know. I feel like everyone has a different past. You know, founding their company. Some people feel like, you know, it's from birth and then people like me actually kind of stumbled into becoming an entrepreneur. So prior to this, I actually was working at a company called Ducks' Simity, which is a health tech company was living in San Francisco. And then in college, I was actually pre-med. So on the track to becoming a doctor, which is very different. Yeah, then being a food founder. But I always loved food. I studied nutrition in college. That was my major. So I knew that food was definitely a big part of my life. But early on, my fascination with food was from a place of fear rather than love, I would say. So struggled with multiple eating disorders for over a decade. So or directsia being the main one, which people may or may not have heard of is becoming kind of more well known these days. But it's an obsession with eating perfectly clean all the time, perfectly healthy all the time. So it sounds great, right? Like it sounds like amazing. Everyone wants to eat out there. But I think the difference is it's not a value add. And that's how at least I describe it because obviously eating healthy is good for you. But the way that I was approaching food and my life, it was so obsessive and toxic and stressful. I think, you know, anyone can say that going out to dinner is like a lovely and enjoyable experience. But just to give you a snapshot at that time. If someone said, hey, you want to grab dinner, it wasn't like, oh, yeah, that sounds great. It was like, you know, me researching everything on the menu and like just stressing about it all day and meticulously planning. Okay, what am I going to eat leading up to that to kind of balance out what I'm going to have at the restaurant. So it was just, yeah, I felt like I was living in this mental prison that I had created for myself. And ironically enough, no one knew that I was struggling because physically I was actually in a bigger body than I am now because I was also binge eating. So I was another eating disorder that I struggled with. So obviously when you restrict so, so hard and you deprive yourself of all of the pleasures in life regarding food, you're going to fight back your body biologically is getting rebelled. So, you know, I would have these moments where my willpower just ultimately ran out as everyone does and I was tired or whatever and I would just, you know, have one cookie and then I would just tell myself, like you just screwed up your whole day of eating perfect and then I would eat the whole rest of the sleeve of cookies and that would kind of trigger a binge. So it was really just this restrict binge cycle that I was in for almost a decade and I'm exhausted just telling you because it was such an exhausting way of existing and it's interesting actually as I'm even telling you this now, it almost feels like I'm telling someone else's story because it was just, you know, a whole different lifestyle and I can really empathize with people going through it because when I was in the depths, it felt like I was at the bottom of this hole and I couldn't dig myself out. And I think also one of the hardest things about struggling with food is you're really embarrassed and you're really ashamed to talk about it and so I wasn't telling my friends or even my family that this was going on and so I felt really alone. And that's kind of why I do what I do today which is talk really openly about my story because I wish I had someone out there when I was struggling that was just sharing really raw and real depiction of what they're going through. So I thought I was the only one and we always think like we're the only ones going through these things but not the case so it's not true because I mean first of all that's one of the reasons I started the podcast because I was talking to so many founders who are under so much pressure and feeling like they were the only ones and I knew they weren't because I was talking to all of them. And I also had a similar experience with food but calorie counting the same way that you looked at things before you went somewhere I would do the same thing to plan what I was going to eat so I wouldn't ruin everything and then the second I would ruin it. And it was an endless cycle and I never talked about it I was way too embarrassed to ever ever mention it to anyone so I think that it's so great that people are starting to talk about it because it is a really lonely shitty place to be it is. And how did you get out of it? How did you sort of pull yourself away from it? Right yeah no I mean it's such a tough place to be and I think one other thing I wanted to mention too is it's definitely a spectrum so you know I think when you hear even just the term eating disorder like I never resonated with that until much after my recovery actually started because I was like oh I'm not that bad I am not under weight I'm not skin and bones I think we think of all these things as like a classic stereotype eating disorder. I was like I'm actually above weight probably so eating disorders common all shapes and sizes and also the severity right it's like you don't have to be hospitalized to have an issue with yes. But yes how did I get out of it so 10 years in finally some little voice inside was like this is enough like I cannot live like this anymore. And finally reached out for help this woman who also was based in the Bay Area she's a food kind of therapist nutritionist and I just started following her on Instagram and something about her page like really spoke to me and I ended up reaching out and she was the first person I told about what I was going through and I feel like half of the healing process even just took place by just telling her it was like this huge weight was lifted off my shoulders the secret that I've been hiding for 10 years. And so I think that's it's like as soon as I told someone it also held me accountable of like okay someone else knows you know I really need to follow through and get my app together. So that was in 2016 and then how my product kind of came into all this is you know a huge part of my recovery process was reintroducing a lot of these foods that I did not allow myself to eat for many years. So for me that was nut butters and as I started to add nut butters back in my body was just obviously not used to eating them and so I had a hard time digestively just handling peanut butter and almond butter. And so as I'm sort of like getting my health back to baseline my nutritionist recommended like why don't you try sunflower seed butters so I nut butter some of these like nut free spreads on the market. I don't have a nut allergy so I never had to try those things and when I did I quickly realized they were just not the best tasting and just like not a great option for people that need to eat them. So I just created something for me and I was really inspired by oat milk. I was popping up everywhere at the time and sort of have a sepiphany that if you could create a milk out of oats you could create a spread out of oats and that's where the initial idea for our product which is the first oat based spread was born. So that's where it started it was 2017 when I started making it in my kitchen in San Francisco and then we launched the next year in 2018 just online. Were you still working your other job. Yes I was still working in tech for actually about a year after we launched so until 2019 and the main reason for that was just. Financially I was living in San Francisco I couldn't afford to leave my full time job and then secondly I just didn't know if people were even going to understand what gruel about her what's because it wasn't a sure fire. No one had heard of this before and so I know it sounds glamorous to like come up with the first of something but it's actually pretty challenging and adds like so much more. Whether you're right because you have to educate before you can even sell something because people don't know what it is and I think when I first saw you I think I saw you at fancy food right. Or maybe it was a expo. Were you at expo? Yeah both. Yeah so one of those two I didn't know what it was either so and I'm really in this like I do a lot of work in food business so I think that the educating part is always a big challenge because. Before you can even get to marketing and getting people involved with the brand you have to make sure they know what it is and why. You have a lot of your own personal followers and was that first did that happen pre odhouse and was that based on the stuff we just talked about. Exactly yeah so prior to launching our company I started to document just honestly for myself as like a virtual diary on instagram because I was I've always been like even from an early age I mean at my parents house I just have like journals and journals like I was just a. Blogger like before bloggers were you know a thing I just love to share and I love to. talk about my experience. It's cathartic for me. I mean, selfishly, it's like a personal thing where it just actually really helps me process things. But then the upside is that it also helps other people going through something similar. So, yeah, I had no idea what an influencer was. I wasn't trying to become a content creator, but it just sort of like fell in my lap similar to our business. There's a trend there. And so, yeah, create a small little 10,000 followers or so, but it was a great little launch pad test market for our product. So, we launched 100% on D to C on Instagram, actually, we did pre-orders and we just kind of wanted to test the waters and see, is this something people even understand? And I think we've fell in this perfect sweet spot because innovation can be almost, you know, ahead of its time, right? Like, I know there's been companies that similar to the iPhone, but they've launched like, you know, before Apple and I think like, there's this then diagram of, you need something that's familiar enough and you need something that's innovative enough and fall on that sweet spot. So, I think for us, it was like granola and nut butter are just two really classic Americana familiar items for anyone who's shopping in their pantry. So, I think combining the two, it wasn't like two wacky or two weird. I think that's why it did kind of stick. And when did you realize that you were onto something that could become a brand, not just something for you yourself? I think when we got into Whole Foods, that was a really important validating point. You know, I think we didn't have any kind of playbook at that time. We didn't know what we were doing. I just reached out to the Whole Foods buyer. I found her name on LinkedIn. And then I just tested, you know, different email formats until I didn't get a bounce back because I didn't have her email. Finally got samples to her. She was super excited about it and, you know, definitely saw the vision. I think people either get it. They see the vision or they don't in terms of retail buyers. Like we've definitely had some retail buyers. Not gonna name names because we're in their store now, but you know, who like just definitely didn't get it at the beginning. And then finally they'll reach out, you know, maybe a year or two later and say, okay, all of the data is tiny. I need to bring this item in. Kind of like reluctantly like I still understand this. Apparently customers want it. So we've had two different responses, but Whole Foods was the first. They were our first partner that really took a chance on us and they brought us in and I'll forever be grateful for that because, you know, they got it early on when we didn't have any data. We didn't have any real following. And so I think when that happened, I knew, okay, if one of the largest, you know, most important natural players in the space is understanding this, then other people will too. When how long were you just doing DTC before you got into Whole Foods? We're doing DTC for about a year and then got into Whole Foods June 2019, which was like a year and a half after we launched. We were majority D to see though, even after that for a while until we launched Target last year nationwide. That really skewed things the other direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And what made you think like what was happening on with that business that made you think that you would be able to get distribution like where you're starting to get a lot of traction. Were you growing the consumer base organically or some other way can talk about that a little bit. Today's the resistible factor podcast is brought to you by I factor a digital research tool designed specifically to help brands identify the right consumers find the most compelling messages and prove their value to investors and retailers. In today's competitive landscape data is the driving force behind success with I factor you'll get custom data solutions designed to inform and elevate your key business strategies. Need proof to sass brands like dash carmell wellness water, explore cuisine and so many more. They secured massive investments and retail distributions based on study results. Ready to make your brand irresistible to retailers, consumers and investors head over to iFactorScore.com to learn more about how we can help you create an irresistible brand. Definitely so target actually came to us. I think they saw what we were doing. They were really excited about it. They wanted to expand us nationwide, which we were nervous about understandably because 15 100 stores is a lot. Especially you know, the new products like you said with education. We've really taken our time with retail. So target happened five years into our business. So we really took those five years to like do as much customer education as possible, but still like most people in the US have no idea what green oil butter is. So we still have a long way to go. But target really wanted us because in the spreads category, you see some innovation in terms of like mixed nut butters. Yeah, but really flavor wise. It's super boring. Like a flavor wise. Like maybe there's a cinnamon almond butter. Maybe there's a vanilla. But ultimately the flavor profile of nuts is so strong right like you can have a cookie dough flavored peanut butter and then the day is still going to taste like peanut butter. Yeah. So I think our product is so unique because oats are just this neutral canvas. So any flavor we throw on it. It really tastes like brownie batter, etc. So we were bringing all these fun innovative flavors to the set and spicing it up because the nut butter category is actually declining. Because the consumption of bread is declining and they're tied together. So and we're also bringing snacking to the spreads category because people just eat our product with a spoon out of the jar, which obviously most people don't with peanut butter. I'm sure some people do. But yeah. So I think that's kind of where so when the target buyer came to us. We really knew that retail was ultimately how we were going to grow because yes, we started on ecom. But at the end of the day, people are going to shop in the grocery stores retail is really especially. You know in today's economy it's like how people are shopping. So we decided to lean hard into that. When that happened, how did you figure out all the things you needed to do to like there's so many parts of that right. You have to make sure your supply chains right. You have to make sure you can deliver because otherwise you'll have them. You have to make and then you have to make sure that your velocities are good. So talk about there's a lot that goes into it. So how did you do guys figure all of that out, especially because you were coming from tech like this wasn't what you did, right. This wasn't what you learned. Yeah. I know. My gosh. I'm not saying it's everything. But I think even the way that I reached out to the whole foods buyer initially, like normally you would hire a broker and they would take a commission and XYZ. You would go, you know, through all these set processes that we know now being in the food space. But I think sometimes approaching things from a different angle can save you time can save you money can, you know, I don't know set you apart a little bit. But when it came to target. Definitely they were such a big player that we needed to get our shit together. We needed to know like how things worked right. It's not one of those things that you can kind of like, oh, like fuck around and find out. It's like you really need to, you know, have things in line. So we talked to a lot of people in the food space. We have great consultants from Sunbutter from Barney Butter. So other big competitors and other players in the space. Our advisors to our company who are really, really in the same category as us. So, you know, great information from them. And then, you know, Google. I mean, I think one of our strong suits is is just problem solving. I think any founder can attest to that. It's like, you know, some the answers aren't going to be there oftentimes. And it's just picking the right decision that makes the most amount of sense with the information you have and just kind of going for it. And sometimes it'll be right. Sometimes it'll be wrong. But I think also being five years into the business. And the way that we've approached retail is very much like after we were on Shark Tank, Costco came to us and they were like, Hey, we want to bring you in. And we told them, No, we were like, we're not ready for you guys. And I think retailers really respect that because when you're not prepared for a retailer. It's so much work on both sides. And they're going to be pissed if like they bring you in. They spend all this time and money on you. And then you can't support, you know, the velocities and the volume. So I think we also were just really well set up for for target. You know, we're in a 50,000 square foot facility here in Cleveland. Now we have tons of automation. So we've a team of 30. So we're just, yeah, we're a lot bigger than when we were in my parents garage and standing. I want to stop on how you reached out to the Whole Foods buyer for a second because I think what you said is really important. Like at the beginning, you don't have to have all the things exactly right. You don't have to have a broker necessarily. I've heard other stories. Not exactly like yours for you went and you just kept trying emails until you got one. But I think that's a great thing for founders to hear because sometimes all those things are expensive and they take a long time. But there are ways around it and you don't think of them sometimes because you think you have to go through all the exactly right channels. And a lot of people who are successful don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another example. I'm not going to share the brand name because we're like still in talks with them. But multi billion dollar company like definitely a household name. So their CEO actually is he sort of has like a passion project like side hobby that he had an Instagram for his Instagram have like a couple hundred followers. And I actually DMed him on his like, you know, hobby Instagram page, which it took some rabbit hole, you know, Google deep sleuthing to find. So I think just finding different ways to reach out to people. I've also gotten in touch with so many of our investors through Instagram. So Jamila Jamil, she's one of our investors. We actually did our brownie batter flavor with her originally. She's an actress. She was in like the Marvel movies and the good place and stuff. And she's also an activist and you know, I DMed her and I was like, Hey, because she posted about us organically a couple times. And I was like, if you're ever interested in investing in a food startup, like, let me know. And that's how that started. So I think for me, shooting your shot is what I always talk about doing that because you just never know. It's like at the end of the day, if people say no, then you're at the same place you were if you didn't reach out with her. Maybe hurt feelings a little bit. but so what, right? - Yeah, exactly. But I think there's so many times, yeah, it's like with raising money with anything, you're gonna get 99 knows and one yes, but all of the knows, oftentimes it has nothing to do with you. It's like something going on with them, you know, I'm sure obviously there's times it does have something to do with you, but especially, you know, it's like maybe they're just not in there, maybe timing, ex-wise-y, so. - Yeah, and I have to talk about raising capital. So you, I think that's a really hard thing for people because sometimes people offer you money and they're not the right people. Sometimes you get rejected 500 times and then you find the most right person. How did you go about that? I mean, it sounds like you went about it really creatively, but how did you decide who was right for you? - So yeah, we've never taken any venture money. We've only taken angel checks, kind of networked individual checks and a lot of those people are genuine fans, super fans of the brand or former food founders. So one of our investors is Tara Bosh. She founded Smart Sweets, you know, another amazing female founder in the space. And I really like having not only female founders, but just, yeah, operators on our cap table because they get it and not that VC investors don't get it, but I think there really is that experience gained from running and starting and risking everything with your brand that sometimes, you know, someone who's just been in VC that doesn't quite understand and that's okay. And I'm sure, well, you know, look to raise venture money down the line, but we bootstrapped for the first two and a half years. I didn't take a salary for the first three years. So like we really did everything very in a lean way. And then, you know, when we raised money, we first raised 600K from friends and family. Like our lead investor was Eric's older brother. So we really just have only raised what we need. We try not to raise too much in the early days, but also being smart about how the food industry is expensive. You don't want to get kind of caught in a place where, oh shoot, we have to raise money, but raising money takes a lot of time too. So there goes sort of this finesse, like, you know, raising the right amount, not over-diluting yourself, but making sure you're well-funded to launch into retail and stuff like that. - Talk about some of the challenges you've encountered, 'cause there have, I mean, we all know there are challenges for every entrepreneur, every startup has them. What were some of the bigger ones for you guys? - Oh my gosh, how much time do you have to know? I think, you know, something that I'll talk more about, like the mental health diet, because I'm so passionate about that. I think the mental health side was really challenging as a founder, you know, obviously, a business challenges, like I have a million and one stories of things that have gone wrong on like the operations or just business side, but I think what's more interesting is, you know, and people don't talk about is just how incredibly lonely and, yeah, and confronting it can be to be a founder mentally. Thankfully, I have an amazing therapist. I would highly recommend anyone who's a founder to get a therapist, because-- - There's not so much person who's said that, actually, just so you know, I've heard that of a 100 times. - Good, I'm sure, no, I hope not, but my co-founders my Beyonce, right? So it's like there's certain things, which I'm so grateful for, and actually, I can't imagine it any other way, but there are things that I just, I can't talk to him about, because he's too close to it, you know? So I think getting a great therapist, I think another challenging thing is, even though you have a community of maybe other founders, even for me, other female founders, no one is really gonna understand your business at the level, like ever business is so unique. So you still have this element of kind of feeling lonely, and I think for me, it's tough is, I love like my employees are amazing, but at the end of the day, I'm still their boss, I'm still, you know, someone who's paying them to do their job, so it's not like I have this built-in network of colleagues and friends within the company. So it's like there's that loneliness there, and then something last thing I'll say, which has been kind of interesting, is every time we hit a goal, that's like a bucket list opportunity. So like going on Shark Tank, getting into Target, you know, being written up in Bonapetit, like all these things that I thought were gonna make me happy, and I was just like chasing, chasing. Yes, you have this little moment, this little like paying of, oh my gosh, this is amazing, but it is so fleeting, and then right after, you actually feel kind of unfulfilled, and you're like, wait a second, what the heck, like I've been chasing, getting into Target for so long, and the day we launched, I was like, you know, only thinking about all this shit that could go wrong, and it was actually kind of stressful, and so I think I've gotten to this place six years in, where yes, goals are important, right? And like chasing those things are important, but not tying all of my happiness, all of my fulfillment to that, because otherwise you're just gonna be unfulfilled at the end. And I think a lot of founders feel that when say they sell their company, and they kind of hit this like final boss, the last stage in the entrepreneur game, they sell their company, they win the whole game, and then it's like, now what? One of our investors, Jake Casson, he was the founder of Movement Watches, MVMT, and he talks about that a lot, pretty openly about, you know, mental health, and how he struggled after they sold the company, you know, more than ever, which is so interesting, 'cause when you're in it, you're like, oh, I wanna do, you just like get to where you are. So it's like that interesting, yeah, paradox, where grass is always pretty dark. Is that your goal eventually? You know, I think if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said 100% yes. I think for us, and just given, you know, like what the economy's doing, and people are now prioritizing more profitable, kind of like sustainable businesses, I don't know, I think like I could also be happy getting to a place where I have more work like balance, for sure, like that's ultimately what I do want. 'Cause like, it's not sustainable to continue on how hard we've been working the last six years, but I think also gone are the days where I'm like, oh, I just wanna grow the rocket ship, this thing, sell it, and then move on to the next thing. I think there's also something really special about like growing a long-lasting brand, you know? Okay, sure, paying yourself like a decent salary, having more work like balance. Like ultimately I think those are the things. It's like I wanna feel passionate about what I'm doing, but I also know that it's not sustainable to like keep working these crazy hours, like days and weeks. So it's like finding some kind of balance, but I don't know, it's like a hard question to answer. That's okay, just curious. Are there any founders that you said to yourself, like I love this person and I want to learn from them and follow them and be like them? Is there anybody that inspires you? I really love Sarah Blakely. I like her energy a lot of spanks. I just love how she, and who knows, maybe it's just the story that the PR story she's telling, but like I love how scrappy she seems. Obviously I don't know her point and how she really was it, I mean a pit bull, that's like the term that I like to use, which is just like not taking over an answer or figuring out how to turn a no into a yes. Like that's definitely my style, you know, making yourself like so unavoidable, kind of towing that line between someone filing a restraining order against you and like getting yourself noticed. That's always like the line that I tell. So yeah, I really like her style. I mean Tara, one of smart tweets, I think she did an incredible job. Yeah, those two definitely come to mind right off the bat. So you mentioned not wanting to, like when you get to these milestones, you feel excited and then you feel a sort of drop off. What does get you excited? What makes you say, okay, this is something that I've been wanting and I love it and I feel really good about it. Are there things or are you really trying to just sort of temper at all and stay kind of even killed? Yeah, no, there are things. I think what I've learned is society and capitalism tells you that this is what should fill your cup, right? Getting into target, revenue goals. And I think going inward and realizing, okay, what actually lights me up? For me, it's watching people interact with our product, enjoying our product, you know, that, sharing with their kids. It's kind of like, it sounds cliche, but it's like the, you know, making an impact and not even from like, oh, a PR standpoint, I'm like, oh, I just want to make an impact. But like really, I think in the early days, I was so fulfilled because I was answering all of our Instagram DMs. I was directly communicating with our customers. I was doing demos. I was watching people eat our product. And then recently, I've been like, obviously, that's all delegated out. And I'm so removed from our customer. And I'm like, why do I feel unfulfilled? Why do I feel like I'm not making an impact? It's because I'm not seeing the direct impact like I did in the early days. So finding ways like this weekend, I'm going to, we have this thing in Cleveland called MGK Day, which is machine gun Kelly. He's like a big rapper and he's from Cleveland. And so he puts on like essentially this big block party. There's like 10,000 people there. But we have a table and I'm going to be like handing out samples. And I think just doing things like that that you did in the early days, like really reconnecting to things that let you up early on. Even if it's not like the most efficient or time effective, it's important because otherwise, like, you know, what am I doing? I'm like on my computer all day, but I'm not really connecting with like the end customer. I think that's really interesting. I had someone on my podcast. My most recent one actually, he's the founder of a coffee company called Puree Decoffian. He said every night, him and his wife read reviews that are left by their consumer so they can stay really connected. Same idea, just wanting to really feel what people are feeling to make them feel like it's worth it. Yeah, 100%. No, it's so important. And I think that also, I have a hard time finding towing that line because sometimes too, you can get almost like so drawn in to like the positive and negative reviews. Yes. Yeah, but it is important for sure to like stay connected. So yeah. So you talked a lot about having to educate because it was a really-- of a brand new category or a brand new form of something that people didn't understand. And then you had to support your velocity. So how did you do that? How do you do the education? How do you now do your marketing? Yeah. For us early on, obviously, we were bootstrapped. So we had no marketing budget. I think early on we really leveraged influencer. That was huge. It was definitely way more effective than it is in 2024. The 2018-2019 influencer arrow was amazing. I wish we could bring it back. Yeah, sending out free product to this day, we still send out a ton of free product. So we sent out about 14 to 1500 packages just last quarter. So quite a few. Yeah. And we have just one of my employees, Molly. She does our whole influencer program. So we tested some paid influencer campaigns. Transparently, the ROI just wasn't there for us. So we just seed free product and obviously there's a cost to sending product. But ultimately, we feel that the ROI is much better there. So that's been really important for us. And then, boots on the ground like demoing in retail is so important for us because our product price point wise is high enough that it's not just an impulse purchase. It's between 7 to 9.99. So it's something that people really have to try to believe. I know you try to do fancy foods. And once you try it, you get it. And you're like, oh my god, I need this in my life on everything. So yeah, just getting it in people's mouths, honestly, is really important for us. I think it's an interesting conversation. Everyone talks about influencers when they're launching a brand. Like it is the probably first line for everyone. What are you feeling from the perspective of doing it a few years ago and now because there are, I think there are also really big challenges. But what's your point of view on why that changed and why it's harder to do it that way, especially with paid influencers? Yeah, I think back in 2017, and I would, like 2016 to 2019 was like the heyday, I would say, I mean, people were just, number one, I think saturation. So like there was less influencers back then and people just trusted them more. Like my favorite influencer posted about a product in Whole Foods. Like I would get in the car. I would drive to Whole Foods. Like it was much more of a poll and a true influence in my opinion versus now. I think just everyone and their mom is an influencer and people know the behind the scenes. They know that a lot of these influencers are being paid or influenced in some way by brands. So it just feels less authentic. I think TikTok is a huge opportunity now though that we didn't have a couple years ago. So like basically anyone can be an influencer is kind of what TikTok has created and you know, certain things can go viral. But I think you're also losing that with the creation of TikTok shop and it's just kind of feeling more salesy, more like an advertising platform. And so that even that I think is going to quickly drop off. But I think for us, the reason we're still sending out so many packages is because our product requires so much education. Even if maybe, you know, the conversion isn't as amazing as it used to be. It's still great brand awareness. And we would rather have influencers communicate what granola butter is to their audience versus people hearing it directly from us. Because people trust influencers more than brands. So that's why we're still investing there. And what about other forms of marketing? Are you doing anything right now? Yeah, I mean, we do like some minor digital ads, Facebook, Google, but nothing crazy. We're not one of those companies that's like burning money on digital ads. You know, we do it if we get a good return, but we turn things down. If we're not, I think for us, because we self-manufacture, we're able to do these like quick limited flavor drops on e-hom. So that really helps. And, you know, it's kind of why you see like Oreo, for example, they launch all these crazy flavors. And, you know, I was talking to, we were part of the Mondale's incubator program a couple years ago who owns Oreo. And they've talked about this in articles too. It's not like secret information, but every time they launch a new limited flavor, it actually boosts sales of their original Oreo skew. So it's really, I mean, it's brilliant. And you see so many companies doing these like, either collab, flavors with influencers, other brands. It's so fun. And for us, it's so fun to do. So we'll do like a six week flavor, you know, drop on our website only. And that's super easy for us to crank out. And then because of that, like our ads perform better, everything performs better because like that hype and excitement. So that's really important to us. We've been doing some like influencer flavor clubs recently. So we just did one with Cherry Pie. And then we're going to do another one actually in a couple weeks. So testing those out, most of the influencers we partner with on those flavors are actually investors as well. So that ends up being a win-win for everyone. But yeah, just a little bit, you know, trying a little bit of everything. Yeah. Tell me the retailers run your own Whole Foods. Is that national? Yeah, Whole Foods National Target nationwide. Publix is another big one. We just launched nationwide. They're actually about same size as Target, which is crazy. Even though they're, you know, regional, as you know, the Southeast. But yeah, those are our top three, I would say, big ones. Awesome. That's really exciting. And what's your goal? Like, where do you want to be in the next two years, next five years? Our ultimate goal for Oathouse is to become just as synonymous as peanut butter, almond butter. Like, I want our kids, grandkids to be like, I cannot believe that there used to be a world without kernel butter. Like, it's like Nutella or cookie butter. Yeah, it's like ultimate goal, obviously, and just bring joy to people through food. Like, that's definitely my love language. Personally, I would love to become a mom in the next couple years. I froze my eggs last year and I'm 32. So I think I'm kind of like becoming a little disenchanted with capitalism and like, girl bossing so hard. And it's sort of this weird place where our business is just at this precipice of like, really stepping it into the next year. And yet, six years in, I'm tired. And I think ready for a little more work-life balance, it's like you can only hustle and grind for so long before it like really catches up with you. So I think personally for me, I know it's not like a popular answer, but just finding a little bit more work-life balance, you know, and continuing to grow our company, but also enjoying my life and not spending every waiting second. I mean, I will say, because I'm older than you, do find it. And this, otherwise you could literally never find it because all of a sudden five years go by and you're like, oh wow, I forgot that I was looking for balance and I still don't have it. It could go on. Yeah. I think it is important and I think it should be a more disc. I mean, I'm not saying you can't give up, right? You can't just be like, I'm not going to work for a couple of weeks because that's not balance either, but there has to be some, especially for entrepreneurs because it is a grind. It's relentless. Yeah. I know you know, but you can work all the time without any pauses, without any breaks, without any downtime. That's not, we all know that's not good. So I think that that's a really good thing. I want to ask you, I know that we're getting to the end of the time and I want to be respectful of your time, but do you have some, I always ask people for advice for other founders. Like what would be a couple of things you would say that you really learned that you want to share to help people either get someplace faster or avoid some of the things that we're challenging? I think this is kind of an unconventional answer, but I'm a big believer in documenting the journey, even if you don't want to share it publicly, keep a journal. So I've kept a journal pretty much almost every few days since we started the business. And even if you just jot down like a couple words of, you know, here's what happened today, I just think it's so fun to look back on like all of, and I do it all the time, like all look back on like the first, you know, couple years or even things have changed so much in the past couple months. And it also helps with perspective because things that feel so big and so scary in the moment, you know, and you have so much more perspective in a couple, even just like a couple months from now. And then it helps you when you do run into future situations that are similar where you're like, okay, I know this feels big right now. It's going to be okay. So yeah, I'm a huge believer in like journaling and just documenting your life. Do you know you're the first person who set that? And I think that's so awesome because a lot of people have similar pieces of advice. And of course, we're all doing the same things and we go through struggles, but that's amazing. And I haven't heard anyone say that. And it's really interesting to think about because you do it, right? You're always documenting things as you're emailing and there's a record of stuff, but actually writing it down and going back to it and saying, oh, I already did this at one point and I learned something. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And you think like obviously you can document however feels most impactful to you. For me, I actually, I don't like all document milestones, but it's more so how am I feeling in regards to where we are with the business? And then you can look back and see trends too. Like interesting. Yeah, when we launch into target, why did I feel depressed and then what actually lit me up and what made me feel really excited and motivated? So yeah, I'm a very touchy, feeling person. So I'm like always talking about my emotions, but I think it's helpful for me at least. I think so too. And I think it's helpful for people because I think as entrepreneurs, you push that away a lot because there's so many things to do and you can't like, I've heard so many people say and I feel this way to some degree too. If you go crazy on all the highs and then you are so far down on all the lows, it's a really unstable, hard thing to kind of get through, right? Because your emotions are controlling all the things. And so I've heard a lot of people say, just stay in the middle. And I don't know if I think that's good either. Like I think understanding how you feel and why is really useful. And so maybe what you're talking about is even healthier than just trying not to have the wild highs and the wild lows, but really understand what the feelings are and why they're coming up. And I think that's a cool way to look for the feelings that make you excited too. Like you said, so many things light you up and they weren't the things you necessarily thought they were going to be, but knowing what they are, at least gives you the ability to look for them. - Exactly, yeah. I used to be so terrified of emotions, which is why I had meeting disorder for so many years, 'cause I'm like, okay, I'm feeling so bad over the eat. And I think a lot of people are. They're afraid to feel feelings, and it's not comfortable most of the time. Like even to this day, I've got to be good at it. But I will say, they're so important, and I just think of feelings are just information, and it's just like a check engine, and I also think writing is so helpful. And maybe for other people, this is not helpful at all. But for me, getting, I think we get so wrapped up in our heads and our brains, and it feels really big up here. And then as soon as you see it on paper, you have that disconnect, you have that separation, and just feels more manageable too. So that's why it's always helped me. - Amazing. That's awesome. I feel like I've had a little therapy session with you today, so I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. (laughing) - That's awesome. - That's awesome. Anything else you want to add before we go? I mean, I think this is fantastic. I hope people try Oathouse. I think it's a great brand, and I think it's so cool that you've launched something that's completely different and surprising. In a category that felt like you said, there was nowhere to go. You found somewhere to go, and I think that's really awesome. - Thank you. Yeah, not much else to add. I would just say the last thing is like, if you're listening and you're considering launching a brand, I don't know how many people are out there that are not quite founders yet, but I will say, I remember for being in that point where it's like, should I leave my full-time job? Like should I take the leap? And I think the one thing that I really, I'll die on this hill, is you're never gonna look back and regret going for it. And even though I'm sure a lot of these episodes, people are listening and it's like, oh, it sounds so hard. And it is challenging, but it also is so rewarding. And I want to highlight how incredibly rewarding this journey has been to because working a nine to five, like obviously that's not a bad, like there's so many people that are happy in their nine to five, but for me, I think just, yeah, doing my own thing and falling my dreams was so worth it and still continues to be worth it. - That's awesome too. And I don't want people to always feel like it's so hard 'cause it is hard, but it's also really fun. And I agree with you, like getting to build something on your own is different. And it's not for everyone. Some people don't want that. Some people want this before and that's fine. But I think if you have that itch, I think that it's really exciting. So well, I'm glad you said that. That's another thing that people don't say that often 'cause mostly we talk about what's hard and what did I learn? But I think it's really cool to just remind ourselves that it's also really fun. - Yeah, totally. - Thank you for listening to The Irresistible Factor. I'm Christy Bridges and I can't wait to see you next Wednesday.