Interview with Dr. Kim Roberts

Welcome to the Bottom Chef Leadership Podcast, a Ministry of Lindsay Lane Baptist Church, where we sit down with small town leaders who are making a big time impact. Hey and welcome in to the podcast. I am Heath, one of your hosts, Lindsay Lane's East Campus Pastor, and I'm joined as always by two of the greatest preachers in North Alabama. Alan Ostrisky, Lindsay Lane's North Campus Pastor, and Andy John King, Lindsay Lane's main campus pastor here in our lead pastor. So, what's up? Yeah, we didn't give him much when he just called us as two great friends. I feel like he's really fishing. I do, too, for that. Although funny story to that, when we first got to Lindsay Lane, Andy John and I were hired the same day, and he preached at some point in the summer, and then I preached at some point in the summer. And I had, I don't even remember who the guy was, came up to me and said, "Man, we've got some great preachers that are like waiting in the wings," and he's like, "One of y'all preached a 10, and one of y'all preached a 9." But I'm not going to tell you who's who's who. So, I don't even know what your one it is. Yeah. Well, this was not in 10. I'm not five in 10. Yeah, well, that's the point. I'm going to preach a 10. We also have been, I don't know, because we came on staff at the same time. I've been called Alan more times than I can count. I had a lady one time at Publix think that I was completely messing with her, because I was like, "No, I'm Andy John," and she's like, "Okay, Alan, I know." And I'm like, "No, no, no, I got out my license and showed her." I'm actually who I am. Is that still happening? I guess not happening. I've given an extensive report on how East is doing as the pastor of the East Campus when Andy John was over there for sure. So, that's awesome. Well, hey, this is a podcast where we are all about leadership. And we want to talk leadership with people who are true practitioners who are doing it right now and local leaders who are making big time impact. And so, Andy, I want you to tell our listeners about our very special guests today. All right. So, our next guest is Dr. Kim Roberts. Kim is a professor of management in the College of Business at Athens State University. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemical Engineering from the University of Alabama, a Master of Business Administration from the University of North Alabama, and a Doctorate in Instructional Leadership with a concentration in Instructional Technology from the University of Alabama. We are certainly the least educated in the room today. Kim is almost 20 years of experience in the specialty chemicals and paper industries. She held positions of Process Engineer Engineering Supervisor, Operations Supervisor, and ultimately the Business Unit Leader, which included responsibility for safety and environmental compliance, quality control, production, and operations, logistics, cost improvement, and people development. For the past 10 years, Kim has worked in higher education, teaching management, and leadership courses at both the undergraduate and graduate level, and teaches Process Technology courses at Calhoun Community College. In addition, she serves as a consultant, designing, developing, and delivering process, technology training to local industries through Calhoun's Workforce Solutions Department. Kim is passionate about the study of Scripture. She leads a Ladies Connect group here at Lindsay Lane Baptist Church, and her hobbies, this is interesting guys, watch this. Her hobbies range from riding her Harley-Davidson motorcycle to crocheting. Not at the same time. I don't know that we've ever had that listed on a bio. That seems far away, far apart from each other. Harley-Davidson motorcycles and crocheting. She and her husband Jason reside in Athens with their two French bulldogs, Willie and Cersei. So, Dr. Kim, Kim, thank you so much for joining us today on the bottom shelf leadership podcast. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Happy to be here. So, one of the things we will discuss today is communication. You've led across all different kinds of platforms from business world to a Ladies Connect group, to the classroom and education. So, talk about what education looks like across those platforms and maybe how it's different, maybe how it's the same. Sure. So, I'll go back to your very first episode. I went back and listened to the three of you. Oh, my God. And it's a doctor, it's okay. Yeah, that's right. And you are not as red-nick as you think. Actually, the things that you talked about are leadership theory. And I'll just mention something related to theory. And I'll get to the communication part, I promise. But I'll tie it to practical examples because I am a practitioner and the things you talked about were what leadership roles we feel in life. Can everybody be a leader? Should everybody be a leader? And some of that starts with trait theories where people believed that the qualities of a leader were innate. And you're either born a leader or are you made a leader? That age-old question, our leader's born or made. And so, trait theory says that you're born with certain characteristics like intelligence and charisma and self-confidence. And then, I think it was Heath that said, everybody can become a leader. And that moves into theories related to a skills approach. And people who believe in that theory say that you can learn to be a leader with practice. If you don't think you have charisma, there are things you can do to build that skill up. Then there are situational theories that say your leadership style should vary depending on the context. And it's not just about the leader. It's not about what traits you have and what skills you have, but it brings the follower into the context of leadership. Where are they? Where are they on their competence level? On their commitment level. So as far as communication, it can vary if you follow that leadership theory, depending on where they are. So a new intern coming in. Brand new, they don't know what they're doing yet. Well, nervous, maybe not fully committed yet. You give direct communication, direct leadership, very specific instructions. Then at the other end of that, somebody who's been here for a long time, who's very motivated and understands their job, you delegate, right? You give them a task and you leave them alone to do the work. And then there's supporting and coaching in between there. But a lot of times we want to communicate and lead with the style that we're most comfortable with or that we like. When we really need to think about that person and where they are, because that person that you delegate to, if you're constantly checking in on them, thinking you're being supportive, they may view that as micromanaging. So I think some of communication depends on where your follower is. Where are they? So when you're teaching theory in your classes, do you have each person receiving that teaching begin to identify themselves within that? Or would you suggest that all of those could be true or are true? We take some self-assessments and answer some questions to see which one you subscribe to. There are some tests. We did a personality test when I worked in industry. And it's one of my favorite ones. I know there are a lot of them out there, but Dr. Larry Little at the Eagle Center for Leadership Indicator wrote a book called Make a Difference in the Lives of those you love, work with, and lead. And he has these four personality types. And I like his because they're so easy to remember. There is the leading lion. And so that person is all about getting the job done. The big picture. They see the forest, not the trees. And then there are competent camels. They are analytical. They like to work with spreadsheets, take their time, analyzing data, communicate with them by having bullet points to them, not just getting the job done, but that whole process of how they get it done is important. Then there are tranquil turtles. These are your people who may not speak a lot, but when they do, boy, people perk up and listen because they're wise. They're good with one-on-one relationships. And then there are your much-loved monkeys, who are your extroverts, very social good relationships with people, and they enjoy that connectedness. So I think that's another tool to use, looking at your self-assessments, understanding where you are, understanding where your people are. I had supervisors in my group who were one of each kind. And I'm a camera man. lion. So I've got those two tendencies in here. And I had a supervisor who was a monkey and it was really challenging to work with that monkey because I would come in and want to know, do we hit target, do we make production, what's what are the quality numbers? And they wanted to tell me that morale is kind of low right now. The guys are tired of working over time. These are the issues on their mind. And I get that, but I was all lion camel. So the more you know about yourself and your followers, the better style of communication and leadership you can apply. Or even that you need to surround yourself with. Yeah, that was a good question is like, you definitely have to identify those in people, but how important is it to surround yourself with multiple of those levels? I guess. Yes, it is good to have those different styles. Yeah, because I'm thinking if I don't know if y'all when she was reading those things off for you, given the self assessment already, like I know that I was and if we're all the same sitting around the table, you know, we all may be able to connect with people, but if we don't know how we're going to get them to where we want them to go, then we got to we got to have some. Yeah, but we, you know, they're all needed, right? And so, I mean, I think about that now with our leadership and our staff. And as we sit around tables and talk about things that we're passionate about, but if we don't have some of the differences around us, we'll miss some of the things we probably need to see or at least a process of how to get us there or what we should be more passionate about. Yeah, because, you know, I mean, you need to be able to share the room with somebody, right? Like you need to not be at your wits and ready to, you know, kill somebody to work with, but you also, you know, there, I've seen leaders that to their detriment, like, and they are so strong in an area and they surround themselves with people that are strong in that same area. And so that organization man is booming in one area, you know, like church life, right? You've got the people that are dreaming and then are evangelistic and a lot of times because they're the lion and maybe some monkey, you know, like, but then the back door of their church is just as wide open as the front door. And people, nobody's getting followed up on, nobody's being discipled, you know, and so, so there has to be a synergy of personalities there. And I think for the leader, the leader, obviously, I would assume has to set that tone, like to be self-aware and then to be aware of probably the weaknesses I would assume, like just to be able to discern, okay, here's, here's where I'm weak, you know, what, what, where do I need to cover personality-wise in my leadership? Right. And even knowing those different personalities, how they can help you in the organization. So the monkey, even though that might have been frustrating to me if I'm trying to get a report, they can help you if you are trying to implement change within the organization because they're the ones getting out there communicating with people and they can share that message that you want to just share. So yeah. Yeah. Going back to the first part where you said the different theories of how leaders are either born or made. Do you have a personal working theory on a conclusive theory on what you think about that? So there in addition to those, there are also the leadership is a process, leadership is a relationship, and that's where mind falls in. It's process and it's a relationship. So it's that interaction between leader and follower that creates that leadership environment. I love it. It's just such a personalized approach, you know, there can't be this broad stroke mentality to leadership. Each one has to be, and in true relational leaders, I mean, they recognize that. Like you can't relate the same way to every person. For me, you know, I'm talking to think about a limited staff that I have, and of course it's in a church context, but you know, I've got a very limited number of staff positions, whether they're, you know, regardless of if they're salary or if they're volunteer. And so like, I have to be very intentional not to, you know, not to, not to value, overvalue the leadership strengths that I have, because then I'm crippling another area of the organization that way. It's just something that I've, I've thought a ton about in, in transitionary periods that our church has been in, I mean, it's in the North, the North campus has been in. So, you know, like you were talking about being self-aware, even of your, your weaknesses, I mean, think about how you're viewed the, the leading lion obviously has a lot of strengths and skills that, that they bring to help an organization accomplish its goal. But then other personalities will view them as being domineering, you know, you just, you're running over me, or the camel thinks I'm, I'm helping by analyzing all this data, but then others will think they're being too slow to make a decision. So it helps you to not only know about yourself, about others, how you're perceived, you may not be perceived how you think you are. Yep, I just, I think of, I think of people, if I'm anything I'm passionate, like that is, that is who I am, and sometimes my passion is perceived, it's a great trait to bring people on board, to unload people to a, toward a goal. But once people are on board, that same passion can be perceived as a, can be perceived as that domineering, like I don't want to approach him about something that I would do differently. So you might have a camel that would totally do something different, and probably more effective, but they don't want to come to me because here I am, you know, in, in my lion mode, I'm portraying that my, you know, what I have is the best. And but also what's funny about me is I think I'm a lion and a monkey. So like the monkey and he's like, come and talk to me, what's wrong with you people, you know. So I can also, if you eat them, listen up there. What's that? And then you eat them when they get there. So Miss, you know, it's like when you're thinking about, I think everybody's listening right now, it's probably thinking, yes, I work with, you know, they're thinking about everybody they work with. But just to be really, really practical, and we can, and you guys can, can chime in too. But let's think through, like, how do we communicate with each one of these? So we can communicate the same message, but I know I can't communicate with a monkey the same way I communicate with the lion, a camel, a turtle. And so just to provide a, a context, maybe as a supervisor, you're having just some issues with performance or something like that, maybe. And so how would you communicate with each one of those and you can start with whichever one you'd like? Okay. So with a leading lion, you know, they're thinking about the big picture, accomplishing the task, the vision where we're headed. So I would focus on information around that that gives them confidence. We've got a plan. We know how we're going to get there. You don't have to bog them down with the details of how you're going to do that. But share with them that you've got the confidence of, here's how we're going to accomplish that, that gold big picture. The camel, maybe you communicate through, through bullet points, give them time to, to process that, give them time to analyze that information, the turtle, some, some one-on-one communication, not having them necessarily have to stand up and speak in front of a big group. And also with the monkey, you would want to communicate, of course, face-to-face, and then also share how this impacts people, not just the task, not just the structure that's changing, but understand how this is affecting you and bring in that relational aspect. So what you had talked about earlier, just about if you have a working theory about a crawl switch, all of those, which one is the best, or how leaders are developed. But have a friend who's a leader in business, and he does a lot of hiring and management and those things. And he said to me one time, he said of all the people I've ever brought on, he said relational leaders are the ones that tend to do the most for you, with you, not just the ones that have the brightest minds, but the ones that can build and keep good relationships. And we even talked about this as a staff recently that, if ministry works best in the context of relationships, and relationships are built on trust. And so dialogue and follow-through and don't go and actually care about you, no matter what you are, a line doesn't mean that they can't love you, or the monkey's not just a rarar guy, but they actually care about what you're doing. And same thing for the camels and turtles, but they They all have to build relationships and they all have to establish trust because if they are leading and want to take you somewhere then nobody's going to follow if they really don't. They may follow but they're doing it out of obligation instead of dedication or devotion and always think about this sounds very simple but you know Jesus, Jesus served people. He's our example of servant leadership and how he dealt with his disciples, I think about Jesus with the woman at the well, he sat there and had a conversation with somebody that his disciples are like, you shouldn't be talking to her at all, you know? So no matter what theory you subscribe to or which one you identify as far as these animals go, I mean you have to be at least working and good at relationships in order to lead well. Absolutely. Some of the more contemporary theories of leadership are the authentic leadership, the servant leadership, transformational leaders, yes, so we're looking to those relationships with people and it's that balance of task and relation. You know I think of an example of if you're taking a class and you've got an instructor that is very structured, they've got the syllabus and the assignments and there you go but they don't interact with you, they don't care about what your goals are, they don't care about your situation, they'd be all task focused or think about the other side of that if they're all relationship focused. You talk, you have a good time, but at the end of the day what did I get out of this class, what did I accomplish? So we like that balance there between that task and relation. Alan and I are looking at each other laughing because we can probably get there on that one, you know, they're going, man that was fun though, what do we even do? You know? That's the devolution of our church videos, I feel like our promos that have gotten less and less effective at communicating what they needed to communicate, but they sure are funded. I think all of us can look at that and think through the people in our leadership, think about ourselves. When you talk about those personality tops, have you ever, have you, do you see people accept those and a lot kind of grow from that or do you, when people on your team, when you begin to talk about who they are, do they kind of acknowledge that in their self? Is there a good self-awareness among this model as you're talking with people on your team? Yeah, so I think we like to know about ourselves and when we see that and we agree and nod, you know, we say, yeah, you get some validation there, but also don't want to limit somebody and put them in this box and this is who you are and you can't change. It's just a way to recognize as I go to approach you and talk to you, maybe before I ask for those production numbers, I'll say, hey, did you have a good weekend? You know, what's going on with the family? And then we can talk business. Do you think these, like no matter which one you are, you need to have elements of all those or you just need to put people around you that have those strengths? Because I know for us right now, like as we, you know, we've had some pastors retire, we're sitting around a table and we all, in a lot of ways, are sort of the same animal and we know we need guys that will talk processes and systems, but we also have to be disciplined to do those things if we don't have those guys around. So would you suggest putting those people around you or trying to stretch yourself to be all for those? I think it would be hard to stretch yourself. You'd be asking a lot of yourself to force yourself to be all those things to all your people. I think that would become exhaustive. It would on me if I had to be a monkey in all situations, getting into large social groups for a long period of time, I'll come home mentally exhausted. So I, for me, I think I would, at times we do have to play all those different roles in our organizations, but I would try to find the best fit for me. I think probably an easier task would be making sure to lend your ear, your trust and faith to at least one of all four of those. And I think probably that's much more, I think we could probably think in our own circles of people that would be all of those, a certain combination of all of those and then getting that perspective, because I think that being informed on it, you may not be able to relate to it. Like, man, you put me with logistics and I'm ready to, ah, it's the most graining thing in the world for me to do a spreadsheet or something, you know. But there are people, there are people that, that is great for them and be able to get that perspective, you know, I don't necessarily have to be that, but I, as long as I know that I need to, I need that perspective in order for our organization to thrive. And going back to relationships, no matter, no matter what kind of leader you are, you're going to have to spend time with people to know which one of these they are, we can't hire everybody right in the church. So you're looking for leaders and I think sometimes too, we, if I'm an inspirational leader, if I don't see somebody else as an inspirational leader, we'll often think, well, then they can't lead that group. That's not true at all. Yeah. They're just a different leader than you are. So we need to look outside of ourselves, I think. I'm curious, Heath, what are you, what do you consider yourself? That's a good question. I think I know what me and any John are. Are you a monkey too? I'm a monkey. I'm definitely a monkey first. Are you lying or monkey first? I'm definitely monkey first. Yeah. I'm monkey first. And you can go online and do a shortened form of the test and I like that. I like that. He's giving us the cliff notes. Yeah. But we're not camels. We don't care about that. Exactly. Yeah. Alright, Heath, what is it? I feel like, because I actually pulled it up here online. I feel like-- You took the test while we were talking. That's very campy of you actually. Trankle turtle. I feel like probably the monkey first. Yeah. And I don't know what I would be second, though. I feel like you have your little camel. Well, that's, I feel like I-- I feel weird saying talking like this with a camel has. But you do like thinking processes. I can think processes, but like walk a day in my shoes and you'll go, that dude's not process driven. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's-- I've stepped into that role because of necessity maybe at times, just administering in life. But I don't think it's necessarily something that comes easy to me. It is something I enjoy at times. I don't know. But yeah, definitely monkey first, because I'm-- I'm here for the party. I always-- Contrary song about woman? Contrary song about me. Sing it for us. Now, there was, you know, Randy Brown. Obviously, people listening, some may know Randy some don't. But Randy was our assimilation pastor here for a long time. Randy, at one time you think, like Randy doesn't even like people, turns out Randy has some of the deepest relationships here, though, with people, because of his heart, you know, right? But at the same time, I would always say Randy is 100% the competent camp. Well, he's processes systems. And I would always joke and be like, you know, hey, Randy, we're going to change denominations tomorrow. And he would be like, that's fine. What do you want me to do? What's the time I was able for that change? Yeah. Yeah, but I just need to know how-- I'll take care of how we're going to get there, you know? And then, but again, the reason why he was effective, even though he had a different way with people, he was still a person that valued people. Ms. Game, let me ask you this. So you mentioned other two theories, you know, you've got the trades, and then the kind of the developmental theory. I also see, even in this, anyogram, I guess, is an anyogram kind of approach to it. That's not too word. But like-- He learned it from John Maxwell. It's accountability-- any John Mennie blush at it. Don't edit the John Maxwell, that was a good one. But seriously, like, I could see, like, a lion being more tending to the-- it's a trade-based leadership style, because they possess some of that out front leadership. I could see more of a competent camel being more of the developmental-- you know, bringing credence to the developmental side of that. You feel like you have to be in one of the three camps, or do you feel like we really need to give credence to all three of them in their place in the leadership structure? Are you saying, do you have to necessarily subscribe to one and only leadership? Yeah, one of the first three theories that she mentioned, what you have to be one of them. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, at what point does trade-based leadership still have its credence and developing leadership? Mm-hmm. I have seen, as I've looked at results, say, from my students who take these tests. We see a little bit less and less of people who subscribe to that trade theory. and only those born with these certain characteristics can do that. And we've moved into thinking patterns that say I can become a leader. Having that growth mindset, not a fixed mindset of, I can't do that. I just wasn't born with that skill. But I see more and more people recognizing that with practice, with development, with that professional development, I can develop these skills and I can do this. I wonder, okay, the first one was trait-based, what was the other one? There are trait skills, behavior-based, which is looking at task or task and relationships. There's the situational or contingency theories. It's as I've changed my style based on my follower. And then some more contemporary approaches that get into that authentic, genuine leadership, servant leadership, transformational leadership. Obviously, I haven't studied in depth on these things. But what you're about to speak with a little bit about this, I'm about to say what I think is not going to stop me from seeing. It's a Ms. PhD. Can I just share my thoughts with you? Let me talk about this for a second. Of course. But I will say that the trait-based or born with it, it's hard not to see some of those guys and ladies that when they get up and move, there's other people that go with them. You know, at the base level definition of leader that we've all talked about before, if you stand up and go in the way you've got people behind you, then you're a leader. There's a young man in our community right now, I've told some other guys about it. I've just, you know, at the school that my children attend, I've watched this kid. And when he goes, other people go with him. And he's in high school. I know that he has not gone through these theories or anything like that. I just know that he has a magnetic personality. He can rally people to a better day. I guess a better day. He could also rally them to a worse day. But there is something to be said about those God-given traits. But at the same time, I think we all probably have some of those God-given traits as far as how we're hardwired. But we all need development. And even within those God-given traits, we need to be sharpened. So, take that for whatever it's worth. I don't know. I just know that sometimes when you see leaders, I know that I'm drawn to them and want to go, "Hey, you need to seek the Lord and what God has for your future because a lot of people could follow you to a better day." Yeah, and that's part of that self-assessment recognizing what do I do well so I can keep doing more of that and then what do I need to develop and work on? Well, and I think to going back to what you were saying, what you're recognizing is a lion trait, you know, that lion is leading. And so, it's not that you're, I mean, you would want to give a lion the podium. You would want to give the lion an opportunity to cast vision. You want to give, but not to the detriment of the turtle. What I identify tranquil turtle and say the same thing, though, that's a good point. Right, and place them in the organization, again, you know, thinking beyond individuals and thinking the whole organization, where is this person most effective? Yeah, is a lion most easy to see, or any John. I forgot. Why, why, why, why? I forgot. I thought you were asking the group. I'm telling you this. I know. These questions like fire me up. I love this discussion. Sorry. He's awesome. He's awesome. He's also two thirds of the way into a monster right now. Yeah, that's right. Let's go. Let's go. This podcast brought to you by the ultra-PGK monster. It's an art of the line. It'll turn a monkey into a lion. That's a good thing. I guess is there, is there, are any of these, I mean, everybody can speak to it, not just this kind of thing, are the, are any of them easier to see than others, I guess, you know? Because I like, how would you, how would you just look at someone and go, oh, that's a tranquil turtle without getting to another, you said that you are a competent camel, right? And when you are in your classes, do you see that first, more than you see the others, or you just like automatically see the rest of them, just because of your knowledge? I think for me, I can pick up on the different ones. There will be something in what they say or do behave, or how they behave that I think I can see that style in each one. Do you see yours, though, in people easier than you see the other characteristics and others? Probably so. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you probably, it's going on the opposite side. I think I probably also see the ones that get on my nerves easier sometimes, too. Which people get on your nerves, Ethan? Good. That was Alan. What do you think of me for? Alan said that. So which, no, I'm serious, the one that gets on your nerves at that beach, no, a turtle or, no, no, I don't, I don't know, I was just making a comment, I don't know why you're putting me on the spot. No, but there are, there are, yeah, there's those personality traits that would annoy you. If I'm working with a camel, I'm going to be annoyed by the camel because I'm thinking big picture and as a monkey, I'm thinking relational. And they're trying to get me to, you know, think eight months ahead. And I'm going, I'm wanting to see people go from A to Z. They're wanting to get to B to see the D, you know, and, and that's going to frustrate me or they're going to tell me all these deadlines that I'm missing, you know, that's going to, that's going to frustrate me because I'm, I'm winning it with people, you know, so I, I could see that. You, you said though at the beginning that you worked with a, um, loud, what is that? I'm not key. Next, love, much. Much love monkey in that frustrated you the most. And because you're, that's why I was right in right now, you know, keep writing notes. I mean, like those would indicate weaknesses though. I mean, right, if you're talking about annoyances would indicate weaknesses, I guess is what I'm saying. Sure. Probably. I don't think it does. It does for me. I'll say it that way. Not what, to answer your question, um, didn't know that I'm not being a whist. All right. The one that's probably most annoying to me is a leading line who's always just talking, you know, I mean, like a leading line who's always trying to lead, always trying to take charge. Okay, man, just sit back a minute. Like take, just take a chill to use that 90s term. I think that's the one for me. Again, it's not when they're doing it in a good way. It's usually when they're just being annoying, you know, like everybody can talk to me. You need to look at me. Okay. No, I'm going to say that the one, probably the tranquil turtle for me is one that, because sometimes the wanting to be one on one, uh, the sage advice that if you'll come to me, I'll give it, I, I can perceive that in my own weakness as you need to be doing more, you know, but actually they are, it's just behind the scenes, not out front. And that, that's easy for me to sometimes jump to the conclusion that they are not on the grind or, you know, leading for the organization. Yeah. I don't recognize turtle traits. Um, matter of fact, this, this conversation is formative to how I, I, I see turtle characteristics in, in someone that's a close friend of mine, and I know it's frustrated with me and, and the my leadership and the way that I lead, and we both care about each other, uh, a great deal and are in the foxhole about some things. Um, and I just, I'm going to be honest with you, like, I just don't know how to relate to him. Like it, it's hard for me to, to relate to him. And so this is a formative conversation for me, specifically for a, someone who is a turtle in my life. So Dr. Roberts, he just had a lead all of these, like you've been in those leadership positions before you've had all of these, um, leading all of them at the same time. What does that look like? So that's interesting, um, neat, you need to, uh, adjust your style with each one before you go in and approach them, remind yourself of, of who they are. But then there are some ways to communicate that I think resonate with a lot of, uh, with all types of people and, uh, a couple of those are with visuals and with storytelling. So I'll just share with you a few examples of how we have used visuals in, in industry to communicate with people or lead people, dashboards, you know, displaying, uh, your, your metrics on a dashboard with red, yellow, green indicators, are you familiar with that? So if, um, we are looking at our production cost, Alan said, yes, talk about the red, yellow and green. Alan is, I'm not. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to need you to go with that too. Let's do it. For some of our listeners that don't know what that is, could you go in a little bit more to explain what you think? Sure. Sure. So we use, uh, the quick visuals, the color indicators. If I'm looking at over time and it's in the green, that's great. I move on, we don't have to spend time on that. But if something is in the red, that's where the manager is going to come in and say, okay, what's the problem and what are you doing about it more importantly? So it's the, it's the quick visuals to let us know how we're doing with project tracking, [BLANK_AUDIO] we're doing with our metrics. And a leader has to take all of this raw data and turn that into a visual to tell a story to their organization. I have a visual that explains visuals, but what it looks like is let's say you've thrown your kid has thrown Legos all over the floor, and they're all different colors. That's your raw data, just all spread all over the floor. And then if you start to take the red ones and group them together and the white ones, are there green Legos? I don't know, green together. You're sorting the data. Then let's say we start to stack those red Legos and the white Legos. Now we're arranging the data. And then now let's put them in order of increasing height. Now we're presenting that data to you visually. So I can look at that quickly and recognize what is going on. We use that to tell the story. So I think no matter where you thought visuals can resonate with people and storytelling can resonate with people. It research has shown it has an effect on the brain. When somebody's telling a story and somebody's listening, you start to get on the same wavelength as far as your brain waves. I know that when Brother Andy John's preaching, I'm listening, I'm taking notes, I'm following along with the Bible. And then when he stops telling a story, there's a different sense of engagement there. What's going to happen on the baseball field? What's going to happen? It jacks, you know, drive through as he's going through. So those kind of things can help engagement. And he was probably the 10. Hey, that man, you do realize why Jesus spoke in parables though after you preach because people, it's like the interpretation and application part, people are like, yeah, the illustration part. So I know that I've caught flack for dropping quotes. This will be the anti-quote. My mom, one time, I'll never forget, as I was like cutting my teeth, preaching, standing in for pastors of little congregations, their own vacation and stuff. I did that in high school and things like that. And I remember my mom one time coming and watching me. And she was always glowingly, you know, like she was very supportive of my preaching unit if I didn't do well. But I remember one time she said, I asked how I did. And she said, you did really well. You didn't tell enough stories though. And I just thought, like, that's a really layman's example of, you just didn't, you didn't tell enough. There wasn't. And so what that meant was what she said was good. And might have been intelligent, but she gave no handlebar to anybody. Like you never actually connected. It was all on this intangible level. And I'll never forget that as long as I live. Yeah, absolutely. Think about it. If you need to make a health change, your doctor wants you to change your lifestyle. You know, oh, okay. But then if you have somebody tell you the story of what they have been through, that is much more motivating. So when we would have outages and shutdowns in the in the plant, I could stand up there and give you the whole be safe message. Or you know, what if we had somebody who's been through an incident share with you how that impacted them and impacted their family. It really resonates with people. And that's that's not easy. Like that's hard especially for for me as a monkey in a lion. Like I'm not wanting to spend the time to organize the Legos. I'd rather just yell at my kids and tell them to pick it up. You know, but like that's hard to do. But, but to that point, one of the most difficult things I do in sermon prep every every week is I come up with some type of object lesson. Like whatever it is, something can be little. It can be a game that we play in the service. It can be, you know, just something from my childhood. I mean, anything. It is literally the hardest. It's the last thing I prepare because it is the hardest thing for me to really come up with. Like even now for Sunday, I've done all of my sermon prep. I don't have that that object lesson yet. But without fail, that is the thing that people always talk about. That's the thing that they always remember. Yeah, you've challenged me in that simply because I've heard you and seen you and some of the things that you use and just because like you remember them. I remember one time you were telling us about the object you would use for a sermon. I don't even hear it or see it, but I remember it because you were going to use it. And, you know, with storytelling, you think about it in witnessing and sharing our faith, you know, the thing that people connect with most is your testimony, at least where you were and where you are. You know, that in trying to get people to tell, you know, the story of faith by telling their own story, people just lock in when you hear those things. Absolutely. I actually had that thought in my head too. We love to hear people's personal testimonies because it is authentic. And that's some of the part of leadership when you can be an authentic leader. So, Michigan, we're talking about communication and we can't avoid the elephant in the room of many of the people at our church. I know we still have people that that are working virtually from home and like for will for the foreseeable future continue to work. And so COVID changed a lot of things, I think, but we've seen that virtual work environment shoot through the roof, especially on the arsenal and contractors tied to there. And so when we think about, we think about these personality types and we think about communicating with them and communication in general, how has the landscape of communication changed post COVID and how what are some best practices and thoughts on that? That's a very well-formed question. That's very much. That's what I'm here for. I'll see you guys. I'm going to leave it with y'all, such professional. Sure. So I've been in the workforce about 28 years and so up until what about four years ago, there was no remote working or Zoom meetings. You know, you went into the office and I certainly can appreciate the benefits of remote work. If I've got work to do on the computer, I can sit there and focus and knock it out. Companies don't have to pay for their employees to travel. I don't have to make all of my 10 minute commute to the office. I don't have to stand there and talk to somebody at the water fountain for 15 minutes, but I also don't stand there and talk to somebody at the water fountain for 15 minutes. Right. And so we lose some of our conversation and Sherry Terkel wrote a book that I wrote a few years ago and really liked and it's called Reclaiming Conversation. The power of talk in a digital age and she says that we are being curative conversation. There's this flight from conversation. How many people do you know who say I'd rather text than talk? And we've all probably said that too. And there are studies that show people who don't have conversations are less creative. They're less fulfilled, less empathy. And so I think there are those kind of losses that people who have grown up in a generation of always having phones and social media, they don't understand those kinds of losses because they have an experience to that. So I really think that I think we'll see some long-term consequences of people working remotely only. I've had students tell me they're looking for a job they can do remotely. Not I'm looking to work in this field. And these may be aspects that I can do remotely. They're looking for the remote job. And I'm afraid we'll lose some of that connection having conversations. You know our phones by texting we can edit our conversation. And I know a lot of young people I come across are they struggle with face-to-face communication. Just the raw sit-down let's talk. And that's where you build that connection. You know sometimes when there are those little awkward silences or you've got to sit with somebody face-to-face. And they struggle with that face-to-face conversation. And I think it really hurts our empathy skills. So I encourage us as much as possible trying to do face-to-face communication with your people. I will say I will say a lot of the books you read have really long titles. They're all every one of them has a colon. Like some people still know how to do it. Hey Alan just did an office quote. He just did an office quote. There we go. Now I'm pretty sure that is not deep-cut at all. Some things. Some people. Headline. No I'll say I think that's I think some people are probably better better able to cope with with that lifestyle. And there I say prefer it you know. But that's why like for COVID that was hard. I I think for especially us three guys in this room, we did so much together during that time. Like it really hurt us. Like we were doing Zoom lobbies at the end of our services where we just see everybody's face. And I think some people, that's why I think COVID really hurt some and then some people were probably like, "Let's do this forever," you know? And so I don't know, but I see that. I see it's easy to default, probably in both ways. Like I see it's easy to only wanna do the relational thing or only wanna do the just the facts, semi-the-text. Like, and we've gotta be willing to cross over, to reach across the aisle and be willing to meet people, you know, in there achieve that balance. Yeah, that's sometimes with Zoom or Teams or whatever of where it makes so much sense because you're asking people with all kinds of schedules to come in and, you know, that takes time and so to meet that way is really effective. At the same time when you are around a table on proximity and you get a read on people from their body language to whether they're frustrated and being here and even with Teams and Zoom, I know that I've been on the golf course before with friends of mine who were on a meeting and they're really not, you know what I mean? I'm not selling anybody out of that name, but I know that the meeting's going on by their phone and they're about to hit their next shot, you know, so it just really subtracts a lot of the human interaction to do that all the time. And think about when you have a face-to-face meeting, you get there a little bit early or maybe y'all do, but no, you get there a little bit early and you chitchat Zoom, say I had a one o'clock Zoom that the host lets you in right at one o'clock, you miss some of that, that chitchat. - Yeah, and I think just a lot of us come up to personalities and stuff, like, is it, is, who of those four personalities is more likely to pursue a stay-at-home, is that happening, do you think? Like, is it particular animals that are pursuing those stay-home jobs? - I haven't thought about that. There could be a connection between those. - Well, because I can, even without you telling us, like, you did, what, you know, yours are, like, I can hear that, that, camel, you know, bias coming out of you, because, like, even like, with the digital, you are having to tell yourself, chances are, what I perceive in that is, you are telling yourself, I need the 15 minute water cooler conversation. And I, as a monkey, I'm going, of course you do. - You won't, you know, but then I'm hearing you, when you say, when you say, I can get all my work done, then I do think about the 45 minute conversations that I had, that I probably could have gotten, 30 minutes at least, of work done in that. And so, and so, it's funny, because I see even you, like, tipping your hand in that, because I'm doing the same thing. Like, my leadership style is, my traits are the same, you're doing the same thing. So, I think it's just being able to perceive that in others, that's a new one, for sure. - Yeah, yeah. You know, those connections to people are so important. I'll have some students in a face to face class, and I see them one or two times a week every week for the semester, and then I'll have online students. And we might zoom a time or two, but then they'll want a letter of recommendation or me to be a reference. And I haven't interacted with you enough to be able to speak to whether you would be punctual, whether you can interact with other people well. I can't do that, 'cause we don't have that relationship or connection. - Yeah, you also, around the table, you also get to see what people are passionate about, or they're not. I know if we're leading a meeting or something like that, and you've got three guys that are just on their phone, they've checked out, they hadn't connected the entire time, then they're really invested in what we're doing. And then if you're on Zoom, like you don't get to see that frustration and body language, 'cause they can just stand up or whatever you just don't get to see it, 'cause you get looking at different screens. That's helpful, not as a leader, I'm sitting or reading people the entire time, but you do get a sense of people are with you and on the same team and moving with you or not. We're speaking to leaders out there in many different walks of life, and we've talked about communication. I feel like we've already kind of started hitting on this a little bit, as we talk about these different personality types, and we talk about what people really need, based on the digital age. I know you teach some leadership courses and things. How do you address motivation in regards to leadership when we have all these different personality types, when we have stay at home, when we have in-person, all these other things, is there a silver bullet for motivation that we can just implement? - Some motivation is internal, right? I can't motivate you. I, as the leader, can create the climate that will allow you to develop your own motivation. And there's been research that has shown people are more motivated when they are able to make decisions when they have choices, when they feel like they have some control of a situation. So, for example, in the workplace when we're working on some continuous improvement quality projects, we let the people who are doing the work come up with the ideas for the project. They're the ones doing the work day in, day out. They know best what needs to be changed. You don't want somebody from corporate coming down, telling you how to do your job differently. You are the one who is doing it every day, and you know best how to do it. So, we let them come up with their own ideas that we want to implement, sure there are boundaries, but letting people have a choice, some decision making in there can help you create that environment for increased motivation. Or when we had interview processes, I would maybe go through the candidates and say, okay, this group meets requirements, and then let the people who are actually going to work with them day in, day out, be involved in the selection. You're the one who's going to have to work a 12 hour shift with them. You're the one who's going to have to supervise them, or they're the one who's going to have to cover over time for you. So let them be involved in deciding who we hire. So, and it all comes back, I think, again, to knowing your people. If you have 20 different people, I think there should be 20 different motivation plans. That's good, man. I've heard people say before, leaders don't have a problem delegating responsibility. You know, everybody could use a few more things off their plate. What they have a problem delegating is the power, right? So that's what you are doing in those cases, is you are empowering that person to lead. You're delegating not just responsibility, but power. And there may be responsibility that comes along with that power. But that to me, that resonated to me, because we do want things away, we want them. Everybody has a way that has their idea of how things should go. We received training before I think. All three of us were there. I know Alan and I were there on the levels of authority. And we still use a lot of that here in order to foster that climate of people making at least recommendations. And I think the first level was the right to know. Second was the right to suggestion, I think. The third was the right to decision. And the fourth was the right to veto. And I may be getting the first two a little bit off. I can't remember the book that I read that from. But I do know that there's that right to know, the right to know, the right to decide, the right to veto, and the right to inform, isn't there somewhere? I can't remember what it is. Anyway, it's basically trying to get those levels, especially if they're at a level of leadership than your organization to make decisions. That actually works for the senior leader so that they don't have to. I have a question though, what about for employees or team members who really don't want to make any decisions? They just want-- they would be motivated to know that they didn't have to make any. You ever see that or deal with that? Yeah, we-- someone recently told me about in their workplace how they are assigned a piece of equipment. It will actually have their name on it. This is Andy John's machine. And if there's a problem you go to Andy John, he makes decisions about that machine. And it gives them that ownership and makes them become the one that people go to for information about what's going on with that machine. So they're kind of putting that position to answer for it. So everybody wants to make decisions. It's just some are OK with making them for-- More than just themselves and some are just wanting to make that small Circle of decision with what they influence I never thought I've never really thought about it that way though that people are motivated not Not really About what we challenge them to do about but they are motivated within the climate that we sit So if you give people the personal responsibility or even challenge them to make those decisions within their circle of influence that they'll work I think decisions are necessary for leadership so and in any level So you kind of do have to push that you can't let comfort be the determining factor So if you're if you're really drawing out leadership in these people regardless of who they are and what their biases are and what their Personality types are you still have to Push them some like you still you don't want them you don't want comfort to make the decision because I think in those people They just want to be comfortable and it's cool not having any kind of skin in the game and I can be marginally Committed you know, I can I can have a marginal buying and I can be marginally committed You also don't want that and then you have marginal leaders When people put their blood sweat and tears into something they'll tend to take more ownership of it and be involved we would have Some we would have people say do the own do their own Painting of the area of their area area or clean up of their own area if they have to do it if they have to put their blood sweat and tears into it They tend to want to take care of it more and have that ownership or motivated to keep it clean long-term That assumes That assumes though that they're not just to draw a paycheck you but you're trying to get them to care through giving them The responsibility or through that that ownership So motivation is less of a less of an ongoing decision we make and more of a culture that we said I guess I'll say for me one of the most frustrating things that I get during the week sometimes is what do you want to do about this What do you what do you think about this? I'll tell you that before like there are some things that I have to give that answer to Then there are also times when I'm asked that question and my question is what do you want to do about it? That just means I'm doing what you are supposed to do and hopefully though That that could be though that I'm we're not creating that environment where people feel like they have the Freedom to make a recommendation or decision Well miss can't thank you so much. I feel like I still have About 35 to 40 questions. I could probably ask But we do have a limit on what we're trying to keep to so and one more thing that Is an example of knowing your people and building that connection when I listened to your first episode One of your rapid fire questions was what cake flavor you like and so I have Some cupcakes in vanilla strawberry and Whatever Italian cream is no mercy Dr. Kim Roberts hands down our favorite guess this is yes, that's far That's awesome. That's awesome. I could have made myself the vanilla and strawberry but somebody likes Italian cream So I could do that This is fantastic. I know somebody that I asked what their favorite flavor of ice cream was and you know I'm thinking vanilla strawberry chocolate like the white cake right and they they go off with Oreo Make me sewing. Yeah, that's right. Oh my come on Here's here's I will apologize to you and to our listeners I never thought this would that that my choice of cupcake would lead to more stress for something But I am very thankful for you. Well, I mean let this be a note to future guests of our podcast We will accept gifts yeah or cash. Yeah, we're okay with I'll also say Dr. Roberts that this is a good move because you remember She led off with you guys are not as redneck as you think that was the first thing that she said So to give us cupcakes now is really a good way to close the door. Yeah, also just just heaping compliments on him any any person Can't hurt, right? Keeping compliments and carbs Alan's next book is going to be called cupcakes and compliments I really wish because what she also knew was way to the end because she knew we're just uh I don't know if it's unprofessional or immature But one of the two that we would have eaten them while we were recording And this podcast would have been really terrible Yeah Hey, well speaking of um those rapid fire questions Andy John. Why don't you hit those? Yes, easiest part of the day And I'm a camel remember. So I'm gonna have to analyze each one of these. Sorry. So hopefully these will be Pretty simple. We're just gonna do favorites Favorite cupcakes. I think one of those right. This could work out our favorite Favorite cut of steak Favorite gift cards to your local All right, favorite book The Bible No, for real um the forgotten Jesus by Robbie Galati awesome I love studying the Jewishness of Jesus. I know that sounds very ferris circle But it helps me to understand what he said why he said it when he said it where he said it and so um that was a really good book awesome Uh favorite school subject math Hey And chemistry Has man oh I get this one down favorite ice cream ice cream flavor you go Alan Oreo It really is So like cookies and cream like that's the thing. Well cookies and cream supplies. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of cookies and cream. There we go. Uh favorite season Fall favorite holiday Christmas favorite genre of music Um contemporary Christian and just radio top 40 got it um not country. Sorry, not country No, I really like her and I don't country. So you're like so you're like a pop like the Teder Swift you like Teder Swift She's I'm a little bit too old for her but sure sure sure So if you're too over Teder Swift then like Mariah Carey or what what where do we need to go? Yeah, where are we going? Oh, I'll go all the way back to like the Madonna days. I'm so much older than you guys Favourite hobby. Oh what we did we did read a motorcycle and crocheting so between the two When the weather's nice I'll be outside riding a bad weather stay inside and crochet Your own motorcycle Man, yeah, you and your husband both have a motorcycle each Correct. Did you ride a motorcycle? I know I actually have a a Harley-Davidson self-tilt slim And also recently got a can-am riker, you know, it's the two wheels in front and one in the back So I have two in the garage and and he has won So wow she just dropped the uh the name on the motorcycle and all three of us look each other like I don't know what that is I just nodded yeah, that's how the house my kids get really excited when they drive past though I didn't know that there you go kids get really excited about them I had to have it I say customized my husband says I had it miniaturized because I had to lower it as far as it would It would go a favorite candy Chocolate of any kind a favorite church song Um Let's see like how about old-timey hymns favorite churches or whichever the other day I listened to when we all get to heaven Oh, it's a good one That was our at our church because my dad loved the music that was the staple hand-checking song Oh, you know when you all start singing and then we had always he would start singing I like the fourth verse and then we'd all sing the last verse together and then you pray Yes, right, and now we did it uh in the in the middle of the course Pre-treatening pre-ship I've been to a bit competent can was really love the part or no, I guess it was tranquil turtles that Hate when you have to stand up and shake each other's I like that part All right, that's all I got very good Pass of flying colors of course when you bring us cupcakes. Yeah, that's right Let's give thank you for being here and thank you so much for taking time to share leadership principles with us And with those that'll listen and a few guys that did listen and take notes go back and listen again And I know there's some good stuff there to improve on your leadership and so until next time Keep leading Thanks for listening to the bottom shelf leadership podcast a ministry of Lindsey Lane Baptist Church For more information on our church and all three of our locations you can check us out at Lindsey Lane not a work