Interview with ChaEn Tea Experience, Khun Big

[MUSIC] >> Hello, and welcome to the specialty match podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Michael Hosongjun, who also goes by Sam. >> Hello. >> Admit the co-founders of Sanco Match Products. >> Yeah, we'll launch this podcast to discuss our learning journey in matchhouse, your startup stories, and interview expert. >> Hello, Ryan from the future here. We also have a video version of this interview on YouTube with corrected captions. So back to the episode, thanks. And today here again, we're sitting in a beautiful tea house here in Bangkok in this very vibrant neighborhood called Thong Law, with the founder of the tea house Chai and Mr. Big. >> Yes, Mr. Big. [LAUGH] >> His name. >> Nick, Nick. >> Nick, Nick. >> Welcome, welcome to the podcast. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So before we jump into the questions, can you just tell our audience a little bit about your background and some information about the tea house Chai? >> Okay. >> In the form, the Chai and Chai and the Black House have the studies about 13 years ago. 13 years ago, yes. First, I have my family have the tea farm. >> Okay. >> After I'm the graduation, so looks the business. >> Okay. >> Yes, he also business my family. >> And this is the tea farm in Northern Thailand, right? >> Yes, not in Thailand. >> Like near Changri. >> Yes, exactly. >> And before I start, I looked at this minute, they said about the Urong tea. >> Okay, yes, Urong tea. Yes, but I think so is about 13 years ago is a Urong tea is so difficult to sell in Thailand. >> Okay. >> Yes, in Thailand, so in 13 years ago is a population is about tea bottle. >> Okay. >> Calling tea bottle. >> Okay. >> Like the Japanese style. >> Brands about O.C. >> Okay, yes. >> Oh, you see, actually, the water start. Yeah, look at the training itself, so the green tea. >> Okay. >> And better and good for the good than the Urong tea. Urong tea is for the mother and the officer is not in the Urong tea. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I look at the business. Okay, I can a little bit for the process to make the, to the, oh, yeah. >> And 13 years going in the Starbucks, we have so the start, start the, in the menu, we have tried the masher latte and koji shalate. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> So there was a market demand, people knew what masher was. >> Yes, so, but the, the, the, the 30 years ago is about the, the 20th, Thailand is after coffee. >> Okay. >> Yes, it's a waste shift. >> Okay. >> Yeah, okay. And look, so, so it's tying to the, shan to the Urong tea to the masher. >> Okay. >> Yeah, okay. the Masha and have the players in the small kiosk in the market. I studied and they were up the recipe about the Masha latte and the Kriyama Sashic and Pia Masha, Masha Salli would be many illicities. I just told this subcellularies and the response for the customer is also not bad, it's not bad. And when was that exactly? Was it like 10 years ago? 13 years. 13 years? 13 years ago. Oh, it was just like 2013. 2012, 2013. Wow. Yeah, you were really early. They're not not a Quinti. Okay. Yes. The plastic bottles. Yeah. Okay. The bottle is of a really difficult. Yes. I give both sure I have an experience about the Masha, bro, but and because I have my friend of my friend of Anlis that she is the tea master in Japan. Okay. Yes, I consult with her. Yes, talking about the tea and Masha from Thailand and Masha from Japan. From the starter, I used the Masha from my friend Thailand. So interesting. You don't have, we've heard about it, but we've never met someone who's done it. And we didn't get to taste it until today, which is very special. And what's really special about it is the cultivar that you are growing in Thailand. Yes, it's a very famous Milky Ulo from Taiwan. You feel the Milky and the Faroe. Yeah. SuperFloor. And there's this really interesting citrus, green line notes coming from the tea. We just tried it as a Usucha. It was amazing. It's not bitter at all, which I had very low expectation based on the color. It's not particularly very green. But it's a very interesting taste, bro, I've never tried from other teas before. Yeah, and me neither in that expression, like semi-stringency, but almost no bitterness, but the eramatics, the fragrance. You don't have experience that in a lot of Masha. It's grown conventionally. That's really made us, I don't know, see things in a very different way of what's possible. How high is the altitude of the farm? About 200 meters. 300 meters. Okay. Okay. So it's not particularly high. How about the weather? Is it like super hot? Oh, the 30-year school is about 30, for the highs of about the 30. 30. Just 35. Okay. But now it's about 40. Oh wow. Global warming is real. So what? Global warming. Wow. Interesting. And I think it's about in the future, it's about the farm. I think it's about the more learning about the technique from Japan. I think it's about the Masha is better than now and the last. Yeah. In the North, up in Shanghai, for the farmers that are making Masha, other than Genchuan cultivar, are there other cultivars that people are using to make Masha-like products? No, let's put it aside. I think some farmers have used the Asamika. Asamika. Yes. But the Asamika is really strong. I'm sure. Yeah. Very bitter. But the Asamika is not okay. But not that. Okay. Okay. That is not bad. But bodies have from the cities is better than the Asamika. I've heard there's some joint ventures too with some Japanese companies and some very large Thai companies like Shingha that are doing some work in Shanghai. But I think you mentioned it from Japanese cultivars that they found in. The first I think is I've used the Tinshian. But, but, but, yes. And three or four years, four years, they were off the Kautiwa, breathing, other, other mixed with the Yabukita, other things. So they're making special cultivars for Chianghai with some DNA from Japanese. Yes. They're breathing with the Shingha population, but bodies have the government. The government? The part of the and not choice part of the Shingha population. But as of the about it, I would call it sure. Yeah. In the in the Institute, Tinshian still other, some farming. Interesting. Yeah. All the insune and from the Asamika and Kodewa from Japan. They cross-bedoong with with other cause of us from different areas. I think these are five in the future, five year, all the 10 year. Very interesting. Very interesting. The groundwork is being laid now. So maybe in five to 10 years, when they find the right cultivars for that region, for that climate. Yes. Then a real specialty matcha that's actually really Thai. Thai cultivars bred in Thailand, optimized for that soil, that climate. Yes, but not sure if they want to make the matcha or the green tea or urong tea or the tea. Okay. Yeah. But in the Kodewa, I think it can make the matcha. So interesting. Very interesting. I was wondering what's the backstory of bringing Jinshian into Thailand, like why Jinshian? Jinshian is because it's another farm. It's about 50 years. The king, the king, he have the king of Thailand. In not of Thailand, many, many people and make the farm and the cooperation from the Thai one. Bring the seeds from Taiwan to the. So it was an early cooperation with Taiwan. Yes. To bring the seeds. Interesting. And it was 15 years or 15 years ago. 50 years ago. Wow. That's a long time ago. The seed was planned early. That's early. Because the opium. Yes, Shen from the that the king have the Shen to the. Yeah. Oh, it's out of the last just 50 or 60 years. Calls of many, many opium. I heard about that. They want to get rid of opium and then they bring in tea to like for the local farmers to make a living. Very interesting. Yeah. I heard about that. Wow. That's and you guys were working with the Taiwanese too. Yes. Yes. Yes. And the Jinshian and it's called sometimes it's about internet. The history I think is about bringing the farm. The Taiwan is about What a sheep's. 15 Caldua. 15 different Caldua. Yes, but it's good to see the Jinxians, it's okay from the Wetter in Thailand. Very interesting. And four thousand. Okay. Very interesting. Like so many histories, stories going back. So you start to make Mata like back in 13 years ago. How have you seen people's opinions and preference change? When did you see the shift? Because in the beginning, people were not thinking this is particularly delicious. The first thing is that the opinion of creamy in the bitter. But the Masha is an ancient, emancipation of coffee. As simple as about 13 years ago, the coffee is a one coffee suba, a 95. Wow, very cheap. But I say the Masha latte is about 40 baht. It's a little bit difficult to drink the Masha. But the coffee is cheap. Yeah, coffee is cheaper. So it's difficult. But I take more information about the benefits of something for the Masha. Okay. And I import the machine from the greening machine from the Japan. Yeah, grinding machine from Japan. Yes, and further. Because the recent from the different from the taste of the team. Because it used the machine from China is knitting suba. I think it's a fine is not okay. Okay, okay. But it's further. The meaning from the Japanese. Very fine. Very fine. Yeah, yeah. We experienced that too. It was really finely known. It's even better than a lot of Masha that we've tasted recently from Japan. That's all milled or ceramic milled. Yes, it's like a silky smooth no-sad reputation. And then something else it was really interesting that I've never seen someone do intentionally. It was bland. Have a multi-country blend of Masha. Which is actually what I'm drinking now is this mixture of Thai, Chiangrya, grown, Jinchuan, Masha mixed with the Yabukita from Yame. And they just complement each other perfectly. Because you have the fragrance of the Thai cultivar, or the Jinchuan grown in Thailand with the Umami and Green and the natural sweetness of the Yame one. And together they work so well. What inspired you to do a multi-country blend? I'm sure they exist in Japan, but maybe they don't label it. Being like a mix of Chinese and Japanese. But seeing this intentionally done to craft something delicious is the first time I've ever seen it. From everyone that we've ever talked to in the industry. So how did this happen? Because this is really interesting. From the different from the another coffee. Yes, I have my farm and I import from Japan. Yeah. Yeah, it means it's from the. This is the highlight menu and view. And some people are open my mind. Yeah, it is from the Masha function line. And then because some people don't know from the Masha function line. Yeah. But this is stigma maybe. But you open my mind, it means you feel different. But it's the perfect. But it's the. Yeah, it's the. But for all modern. Fragrance. Yeah. Yeah, it's different from the Japan. Yeah, it really like pooling things and highlighting the strengths of both teas. Yeah. Because even Yabukita I find it's a little bit not interesting sometimes. But with this fragrance layered on top and this floralness. It's really like. Yeah. It's a blend that I've never tasted like anything like that coming from a Japanese product. Yeah, it's really one plus one equals three. Yeah. Larger than two. You know, like the. The vegetable notes totally disappear from the Yabukita. And the citrus notes from the Qinglei. Yeah. Much remains. And that's. Wow, delicious. Because the Yabukita is. I think it's about Yabukita's test of the Barahanol. It's test. Yeah, it's about. If I could. If I select the Okomuroi, I think it's. It's not the. Come back with the. Oh? Yeah, Yabukita is. It's okay. Did you try any other cultivars? Yes, yes. Which ones work and which ones don't and why? I think so is. I think Yabukita is. Because the mainly Yabukita is the test of the modern. Mommy, mommy, creamy, business, and the SECONC aromas. Very balanced. Okay. Yes, we really balanced. But it's about. If I select the Samitori, I think it's about more the mommy and sometimes I put the Jinsuan and Yabukita. I think it's about not the balance. Okay. Not the balance. What about for very umami cultivars? Like, maybe would you hurry your Asahi? Do you think it would be clashing or do you think it would be balanced? Yeah, it's a. Clashing. Clashing. And sometimes Yabuk. Use the. But Uchi, you can use the high qualities. I think it's not suitable to the mixed with Jinsuan. Okay. Uchi. So the single is. It's a bit. Okay. It's not one plus one. It goes very interesting. Wow, it's such an amazing idea. Very. It's really open my mind to some possibilities. I think for other people, especially in other countries, to do some things that just don't exist in traditional Japanese matcha. And they can layer on their own value, their own creativity. Yes, because the idea from the coffee. Coffee is. Yeah. It's a bit of a brown seal and the. Yeah, Thailand and all the kutemala. Yeah. They can bring this place. Yes, everywhere. Yes. It's wide of matcha. And I mean, historically it has been a blend as well. And wow, it's so interesting. And not only blending matcha from different regions, different countries, but also crossbreeding like plants from different countries. Like I'm sure like people in probably China, Japan are doing it too. But like this is the first time I'm actually hearing from an industry expert that talks about this reality. And this is very inspiring. This is very inspiring. Very cool. Wow, really looking forward to paste a matcha made from like a Jinsuan crossed with a Yabukita or like a Okumidori in the future and going in Thailand. And this very unique toa. Talk about a global story. A Japanese cultivar with a Taiwanese mix, specifically but mixed in north of Thailand and then grown there. And then maybe mixed back with other Japanese tea to create a more balanced. Great forage then create by the locals, for the locals. Yeah. It's really truly a local product in a sense. That's really wonderful. This is an unexpected story. We have no expectations, but that's very exciting because we've been talking a lot about this on the podcast that have the needs to be more local at a patient. And maybe the really high quality matcha in Japan is not what someone wants or likes in California or in Mexico City or in Brazil. But the people who are in those places know their consumers really well. And then they can blend and do this new flavor creation that we specifically meet those preferences that maybe Japanese people cannot understand. We had a fusion menu called matcha. Okay. And matcha is Hanilam. Hanilam. Hanilam? Hanilamon. Hanilamon. Oh, Hanilamon. And matcha is red mon soda. Okay. And you can tell the matcha sweet potato. Oh, sweet potato. And matcha, milk and sweet potato. And matcha, milk and mint. Mint. We've heard some crazy combinations. We haven't heard this in cafe here, so I saw a smudge a lot. A lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. We can't. We thought the size of the half bell. Hmm. I could see that working. We haven't tried it yet, but we plan to this afternoon. Before, John, did you have any experience in like the bubble tea industry or the milk tea industry? I think so. Or did you take any inspiration from that? And black tea. And black tea. Yes. But especially, is that matcha? Okay. Yes. The menu is that the other two are red tea and milk tea. And matcha is not matcha holy. Okay. So it was a tea tea shop, basically. Yes. It's a tea shop. But the people, the customer is an other model matcha. Okay. So it was a customer choice that you will steer more into matcha. Yes. Interesting. How have you seen the matcha scene evolve in Thailand? Because now, like the evolution, because now, like you see everywhere, every cafe has cultivars. Everyone tells you the region that it's grown from. It's from Fukuoka, Yame, it's from Uji, or even more specific, like Wazuka tea or Ujitawara, Jojo town. You don't see this in other countries or other places. We haven't, at least, that level of sophistication. Maybe if you're in in Paris, the conversation is very important. is that the matcha is ceremonial grade. But that's it. They don't give you any other details. But here it's really transparent. If you were to open a new matcha brand tomorrow, I think in Thailand, you would fail if you didn't label the origin, such as Guji, Yame, Kagoshima, Chizuka. And I think you would fail if you didn't have cults for. This is Okumadori, this is Jabukitas, Asahi, Ujihokari. Because every cafe in Thailand gives this information. So if you were to just say it's premium matcha, and that's it. And nothing else. I think the ceremonial grade. I think every Thai consumer wouldn't trust you. How did that happen? Because if you go to anywhere else in the world, consumers don't care and ask about origin or cultivar. But here it's a standard. And maybe 10 years ago no one cared. But now everyone cares. And that's very unusual. Because even in Japan, no one cares about that information. How did that happen in Thailand? Or like when did that happen? Like when did you start seeing consumers coming in and ask you, like, what's the cultivar? Where is this from? Things have been asked to. So fairly recently actually. Yes. Because of the simple after the COVID. And before the COVID, no question about the Tauti one. COVID is from Ujihokari. Okay. Ujihmatch is fine. Yes, no yam. After the COVID, it's hard for about the modern information. And the people are always up there, with the building the home. Yes, it cannot go to the cafe. It's back from some place, some cafe is open. And talking about, we're talking about the information. So it's like a sales strategy. So all of the Macha companies in Thailand during COVID used education to sell Macha and to enrich the experience at home. Consumer got curious, I guess. Because they have nothing to do. They have more time, maybe. And the customers, they want to know about the information. They want to know what is a dream is from where? Which cultivar? Yes, from Kodewa. But Kodewa is also a part of the COVID. And the more information, from this place, from this brand. And I think it's more time for discussion. And the more, it's about the company. And the more time for the company. Interesting. You see this happen elsewhere too. Like in the States, people going to home baking, a brioche. Doing all sorts of east, you know, fostering themselves. I guess in Thailand, people going to Macha to kill time. Doing COVID. Wow, so interesting. You see this a little bit in the States, where the single cultivar idea for Macha over COVID, yeah, used to all sorts of new brands that focused on this, like O'Kah, like Kettle started focusing more on this, Rocky's Macha, all around this COVID era. Because the company is having a coffee, it's like a single, the already in the system, so the Macha industry is having information for the Macha, for the consumer. And the single cultivar is having Macha, and the company in part is kind of select from the farm, not effectively. Oh, interesting. They say all the, the brand only, not the single cultivar. Interesting. So, in other countries, you often see a hybrid between specialty coffee and Macha. It's actually usually a specialty coffee shop, and then they just happen to sell Macha as a portfolio. So in Bangkok, do you also see that being the case, like people in coffee, like they do single cultivar coffee, and then they start doing Macha too? Or do you see people just focus on tea, like you? Like you were doing tea all the time since the beginning. Do you see that being more of the case, or do you see that, you know, like people doing coffee and Macha together? I think so, especially tea is okay, because the coffee is after, so if you go in the coffee, for the specialty coffee, you have to smell the coffee, more, more smell. But if you sell the Macha, you cannot smell the Macha. Oh, you cannot smell the Macha. Yes, you can smell the tea only. The smell of the coffee is really strong, but the tea is soft. Do you see like coffee people move into Macha in Thailand? Because the reason is that some people use the six. Oh, I should reflux it. Yeah, too acidic. The woman is higher than the men. Okay, yeah. It's very similar to the rest of the world. Do you see people from the coffee industry, like people making coffee, like start switching to making Macha? Do you see the coffee shops becoming Macha shops? In Thailand? Yes, some special coffee. Yes, they do the open special tea or the special Macha. Because it's okay, the market is after half the opportunity. Yeah, the market. But I think so is after, now it's situation is so difficult. Because the people is just. It's now just 100 people for the SMW. Not more than people in the Satti is after just. Even the stand. That's a moment. Oh, there are not enough markets. The market is getting saturated. The cake. Yeah, it's full. It's only so big. Everyone is coming in to take a slice. Yes, yeah, sorry. I can move to the cake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only so. Yeah, hopefully we can grow the cake together. I think so is still. But. It's not. Next year is after a little bit going. Not an explosion. It's still very interesting though. It's from our own observation too. People don't really do hybrid in Bangkok. Like a coffee plus Macha in one location and one shop. It's really separate. Because the thing is, customer is ever understand. If they want to drink Macha, they go to the shop. They want coffee and they go to a coffee shop. It's okay. You go to my friend. My friend, you want to drink coffee. But you have to want to drink the Macha. The coffee shop is. We got. They have to have that option. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the coffee shop is have an option for the Macha. There's a specialty of the Macha. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting. Because in the States, I wonder. Because in New York, for example, New York has had coffee shops on every corner for. I don't know, more than 50 years. And it's a very well established, like, local institutions, all of these coffee shops. But I wonder if, like, just Thailand didn't have as many coffee shops. And there is this huge demand for Macha that it can support a Macha only T-house. Because it's here to a huge mix of T-house and cafes. And maybe they just. There weren't as many cafes to start. So as all of the demand for specialty coffee and specialty Macha has grown, they can have their own shops. And what's interesting is within T-houses, like, you get an insane level of transparency. Like, you don't get this in a coffee shop with all of this detail. But the Macha cafes can do it. Because maybe that coffee. It's just too much for a coffee shop to do. You have to learn experts in coffee and in Macha. But the T-houses, it's their specialty. But I think so. So, to learn from Macha and consult me from the Anath. Yes, Anath is a poet. I'll tell you later. Okay, you can open the Macha shop. But you have the model option of the coffee. It's a special coffee. Okay. Yes. You have the option of the Americano or the. It's a simple basic. People just. Yeah. We have some case in the Van Gogh. So it's a Macha shop that offers just a little bit of coffee. Yes. It's the opposite. In the place like New York, you have all these options for coffee. And you have simple basic Macha like that. And that's it. Just what. It's the other areas. The other table, too. Because the. you open the coffee shops that you have more than one. Because of all the equipment costs, the machines. Yes, the machines. Much more expensive. Yes, much more expensive. So, it's up to the special coffee. You have the owner, the coffee shop, have the money, money, okay. And then open the coffee shop. But it's up to coffee, coffee shop itself, choice, yeah, the amount of option of the matcha latte are the clear matcha. Interesting. I wonder if money, like the cost of opening a shop is part of the driving cost, because you can probably open to matcha shop with the money that you can open only one coffee shop. And people like for, you know, for this reason tend to open more matcha versus coffee. Yes, yes, yes. Because the everyone wants to the owner of business, the matcha shop is not one of mine. Interesting. What is the matcha shortage effect is the matcha scene in Thailand? Because from what we understand, it's much easier to import tea to Thailand. Like basically anything that you can, as allowed in Japan, as allowed in Thailand. But have you experienced a big matcha shortage or have you noticed that the whole industry is suffering? Because we hear a lot from people in other countries, especially in Europe and the United States. The matcha shortage, they just can't get product. Or if they can, it's less. And maybe it comes a few months late. But from supply, have you noticed how big of a problem has happened in 2024 for you and 2025? Getting supply, a stable supply. Yeah, it's the, it's for my, my company is a, I talking about the supplier and find more, find more of the supplier. Okay, so you did need to find more? Yes, but some some suppliers are, okay, at the office hall. At the stock, okay. But because I, I, I, and on the reserve, yeah, but, but the, the, the old supplier, okay, I can contact first. I can't have before I can, I can, I can delete this self. You can reserve. Reserve, okay. Yeah, supplier. Yes, on supplier. And the own, also, the Japan's have the, okay, is have the, you, you, the old, the old customer. Yes, yeah. Because, and people have been doing it here for so long. Yeah. Like at priority. And the problem I think is have sold about the, the, okay. And the, the thing is that the, the famous brand. Yes. Because, because the, the Thailand and Japan is not far. Yeah. Five hours. From the airplane, okay. Yeah. Is some, some people school, okay. School to Japan and by all. We, we just, we've heard, yeah. A whole suitcase full of hopes, a Hoshino say, or Martin, could go, could you on that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hi, Nakamura. Yeah. It's the problem. But I think it's all that the cafe is, yeah. And don't, don't, don't use the, the thing can not be separate. I am on the mouth. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's have many kilos. Hundreds of kilos, I'm sure. The problem is, uh, not a big couple. Okay. But, but the big problem is, uh, then the, from the, the thing and the, from the famous band, the whole band is stuff that, um, so, so it's, but, but it's up. Um, I buy, okay. It's, I buy from the software, one, one hundred kilo. Yes. The order is about one fifty. Okay. OK, and many other new customer. OK, you can limit the value. OK, yeah, that's purchase limits. We hear that all the time. It's really hard to grow for a lot of new market companies because they can't find much of those purchased in history. But very short purchases. Yes, I think the problem is each hour. Because many people are uttered the business. Yes, some people are uttered the business. Not a T business. It's come to the T business. To make money quickly. Make money. Do you see-- If you talk to a lot of people in Japan, they say, I'm tired. I want this much boom to go away. And I hope that I guess if another way of phrasing it is I hope people drink less matcha is what we hear in Japan. When is it going to be more quiet? When is the demand for matcha going to go down? But in Thailand, do you think that the amount of matcha that people are drinking is going to increase or decrease with time? Because I think it's only going to keep growing because people love it. And it's part of their life now. But do you see the demand for matcha in Thailand going down ever? Or do you think it's just going to keep growing? I think it's now going down. It is going down now. Yes, now. Because the price-- Too high. Yes, too high, then the quality. OK. So the price increases are so much that the quality doesn't deliver. Yes. And then they're disappointed. Then they won't buy as much. Yes. So some of us-- some of us-- it's too high. OK. I'm the being the matcha. OK. Do they switch back to coffee or do they just stop drinking? He is one of the bags of a cup. But in the matcha, sometimes it's 200 bags per cup. Yes. It's more expensive. But because my-- and the coffee is up for the-- I have found some finally stuff, probably-- Yeah. It's up for-- OK. So the reason to sell the high parts because from the Japan is several. The bow and the people. Well, maybe a Qinglei matcha will catch up one day. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it needs to-- all these other regions outside of Japan, it's really the foundation of a stable matcha consumption market in the future. Because if the price is just going to ever go up for Japanese matcha, people are going to move away. They're going to move away to like, milky and all kinds of other alternatives. Everyone talks about the victims of the matcha boom being the T-farmers. Never-- they have 50 people asking to buy their product. I don't see how that can be a victim. As much as people-- in places like Thailand, who-- if you look at the average purchasing power of a consumer in Thailand, they're very limited. And then even 150 bodies, $45. That's expensive, even in like, and other places. And I think this is the real victim because there's this culture of drinking matcha here. It's a very new, baby culture. But it has so much potential. And now the prices are getting so high that people literally cannot afford it. And it's the people who have the least money that are now cannot access this culture. And now it becomes an elite culture of just the people who can afford it. And I think that's very sad. And I think it's really-- I think like places like Northern Thailand, China, Taiwan, Korea, they can increase the supply, make new-- incredibly new and interesting flavors to make it cheaper so that this doesn't turn into an elite culture so that it's something accessible. The victims of this matcha boom are silent. They're the people that side-- I can't afford a matcha today. And then the next day, I can't afford a matcha today. And then they move away. This is the real victim of this movement. It's not the people who have so much demand for their products. It's also the small businesses. All of these new matcha businesses in Thailand and in other countries, they don't have product to sell. Or they have to spend two times the amount on matcha they buy. And they have to raise the price, the customers. And then their customers are disappointed in them. Because it's double the price. And maybe it's a worse quality than it was last year. So these small businesses that suffer and consumers that suffer. Yes, really suffer. Gen for the new house. New house, this year, from the-- it's not the high price, but the quality is not the most. Yeah, I've heard it's very good at the best places. Like Gokasho, like Harington, Uji, has very high quality. But a lot of the other things we've tasted is-- Some things. Yeah, just OK. Yeah, if the high price is high, just OK. And the customers can pay it. If the quality is-- They will understand. Yeah, they will understand. But now the quality is not OK, but the high price. So OK, customers are moving. Yeah, yeah. It's really a shame. It makes me very sad. I really hope that the stigma for Chinese matcha, for Thai matcha, for Korean matcha can be lifted. And we see more innovation like this, where we can even mix which Japanese to create new things. Because Japan doesn't just have exclusively good tea either. There's a lot of very in the middle mediocre matcha that's produced in Japan that might taste fantastic when mixed with something more fragrant, for example. So it's more value can be added onto the system, which is what you're doing here. And it's very inspiring. And I understand from the-- He found from the Kyoto. And all there is-- and they tell me his best. He said, "Good quality, okay, good." Because they don't realize about greening quickly. Yes, the grinding bottlenecks. We heard there's an issue to shortage too, not enough. Next month or two months, from the cookie hotel is coming from the new house and the good quality. Very nice. It has time to rest too. I'm sure. But still, compared to all the tea-boring regions in the world, Kyoto or even Japan, it's a small place. There will be another go-kosho that's outside of Japan or another yamae that's outside in the future. And we believe that's happening. And it should happen. It must happen. Otherwise, this whole thing would go away. And we're going to be finished into a niche cultural luxury once again. And we don't want to see that in the future. Yes. So, why is the shop the clienty experience, not the clienty experience? Because sometimes the clienty is going down. The clienty is going down. The main product is an accad-chain, a clienty experience. It's more flexible. It can be flexible. Because sometimes people will be like, "It's not going to match up." "It's not going to be a beauty." "I want to be the bratty on the world." Yes, I have the option. We've been seeing matcha as a gateway to loose leaf tea. Because everyone's worried that the sentulas in the client, go-kosho in the client, even leaf tea consumption, like we've heard places like Taiwan and mainland China, is declining. Because young people don't want to do gongfu tea. Young people don't want to do use the qi-su. Ah, yes. But now that people are interested in matcha, it might be a gateway to get them interested into other teas too. So, it's a. I think it's very needed. Especially, it's all tea consumption. It's kind of on the decline from a traditional style. So, that's promising too. Because I know a lot of our listeners are really concerned about there being no market for go-koro. No market for sencha, or for any of these other loose leaf tea. So, it's a cool concept. Because sometimes one can be a bridge to the other. Because I think the news comes to the tea industry first. But, the green matcha is so easy. And the tea is so beautiful. It's a green color for the tea in the social. But I think the newcomer is a big model matcha. I think so sometimes more. Yeah, more is a chance to the loose leaf tea. Yeah, it's a more dynamic new flavors. Yeah, the flavors. Because the loose leaf tea is a many many option. And you get now, you get an option. Yeah, it's in India. Yeah, it's loose leaf tea is many many options. Have you tried to powder ice or make powder with other teas, other than tensha or green tea? Yeah, you tried using udon or black tea to make powder with your grinded. So, the fine is not. Oh, fine is not. Yeah, because we have the stem. It's the same. Yeah, udon tea is not powder. Okay, okay. Maybe you de-stand the tea in my grind into a fine powder. Is the similar, the koji tea. Yeah, the similar to powder itself. The fine is so so. I think it's all the way the pizdee, the puho in his tea, not to the pork grinding the urontini or the bimbing the rat tea. It's some of the reason. Vines is the problem. Yes, it's my little problem. Interesting. But the future is have the machine. Yeah, given the machine available. Yeah, people can grind that into the powder. So, I think a good last question is what changes which you like to see in the matcha industry in the next five years? What would you like to see change? One or two years turning back to the price sale. Oh, the price, yeah. Yes, and people have the, during Ding Ma Sha everyday, it's have the Ding Ma Sha, and consumer is have understand about the matcha. It's that that that that that's still in the matcha. Consumer who likes or understand matcha still remains in the matcha. Yes, so that people don't leave the industry. People don't leave their habits. Yes, because this year is a trend. Yeah, it is a trend. So you don't want it to be a trend. You want to see it like. And the rasiya is up. Yes, but I think so two or three years of us going down and the stable. Okay. Same the coffee. Same with specialty coffee. Yes, same because because the five or six years specialty coffee is of a very boring. And now it's up. Okay, it's stable. Yeah. Working so. We can't because in the deep doing business have the circle. The circle is that. In the internet have the circle is about 10 years old is up. I'm tightly is or mutated bubble tea is popular. Okay, and the five years goal is bubble tea again. Okay. Yes, and the same the matcha. Yes, five five or six years ago is up the matcha in in in Thailand itself. Okay. Yes, but. Okay, this five years ago. Yeah, it's the last so every drink category has of almost a five year circle. Like they take turns and then they have their own. Five to 10 years. We don't quite see that yet in other countries for for matcha. Yeah, just cross. Yeah. But I think that tiny market is more mature for matcha because it's been so sophisticated. Or at least last three years since I've been coming here for matcha. It's just so mature from a knowledge perspective and what people are asking for. It's also happened so fast. Three years of three years is not a long time. Yes, yes, yes, not long. Yeah, that's that's crazy. We probably will see that happening in other countries. There is. Yeah, we hope that everyone takes inspiration from Thailand. And the way that matcha knowledge is communicated to the consumer. In Thailand, it's about different from the another country because the recipe and the fusion menu. Yeah, you see a lot of innovation there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, it's the Polish. Yeah, and another country is several basic Masherate is about. Masher with the water and the top on the bill. Yeah, but my country have no water. Yeah, cold. This cold whisking thing is really interesting. I hope that that spreads because when you have no dilution from any water in your doing a cold extraction with the matcha with milk, taste totally different. It's really good. It's good. Sometimes it's called a Masherate ice thigh. Great innovation, especially in an ice beverage. It really works. I try latte but with matcha. Yeah, 90% So it's still very high percentage. Yeah, yeah. But I think this cold whisking style makes you taste the cultivar better. Like you can really taste the difference between like a very umami cultivar, like a sahi from wasuka, cold whisk and like a yummy tea. Like they really magnify the differences. Let's dilute it. Yeah. You can taste the tea. Much more cause. Yeah. It's becoming sublime. Nipian and bland. That's true. Yeah, I could see that. Wow. That's all very interesting. Thank you for sharing all these information. Yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's great to meet you. Yeah. It's uh, yeah. It's uh, and thank you for all the tea. It's been very tasty. Very, very mind-opening too. Yeah, it's inspiring, honestly. There will be a, I guess, very interesting future waiting ahead of us that we are probably no one is expecting. Yeah, all these new cultivars in Northern Thailand. We just need a way to few more years. And we know it's when innovations will see it. But this time for Thai matcha. Yeah, or Chi-Lai. But I think so, this is the mix here is the wrong thing. We've had a couple. It's very interesting. The color is not perfect, but the taste is interesting. It's good. It's very different. Yeah, yeah. A lot of lemon. And like yellow lemon notes. A lot of almond too. You are seeing the quality of Chinese parachag getting better slowly. Used to be like really bad everywhere. But now you are slowly seeing once a while a couple of matcha from China. I was surprised. And I think that's a future much needed for everybody. Yeah, and much more resilient and really happy to see Thailand and Korea and Taiwan drawing this whole community of matcha production. I think that's a very exciting future to see. Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And thank you to our audience. If you enjoyed this, please consider sharing with the friend. If you're ever in Bangkok, you should absolutely check out China. And we'll see you on the next one. Thanks so much. See you in the future. Thank you.