Integrating coaching supervision into a high-performing organisation | Internal coaching supervision series two, part five

Welcome to the EMCC UK podcast and welcome to the fifth episode in our series Exploring Internal Coaching Supervision. In this episode our host Catherine Sungin Brooks and Jeremy Gond, chat with Julie Dansekin and explore the insights from integrating coaching and supervision practice within an organisation. During the discussion Julie shares the context of her organisation supervision practice including the number of coaches and supervisors involved, the use of one to one and group supervision and the commitment to coaching as a practice. Julie also addresses challenges such as the helping orientation of NHS staff and the impact of the pandemic. Julie's NHS career in mental health nursing led to a senior role as MD of a unique primary care organisation in Northumbria. Julie championed and led the introduction of coaching into an NHS trust and now coaches and supervisors in that trust. We hope you enjoyed this fascinating chat and if so please check out the other brilliant episodes in this internal supervision series. Hello this is Jeremy Gond and Catherine Sungin Brooks. We are welcoming you to the second series of the Internal Coaching Supervision podcast. In the first series in 2023 we focused on lead coaches with organisations, people who manage their internal coaching resource. In this second series we turn our attention to the supervisors themselves. Some of our guests will be external supervisors, that is they are independent of the organisation whose coaches they support. And others are internal supervisors who like the coaches are employed by the organisation in which they practice. Today's guest is the first person to be interviewed. Today's guest is Julie Danskin. Julie championed and led the introduction of coaching into an NHS trust and now both coaches and supervisors in that trust. Welcome Julie can you tell us a bit more about your background, how did your career begin and how did you become a coach and then an internal coach supervisor. Thank you Jeremy it is lovely to be here today. Maybe to stay at the beginning currently I have a portfolio of roles, one of which is the internal executive coach and coaching supervisor as you say in a large NHS trust in the north east of England. My route to become a coach and supervisor early in my career I trained and qualified as a mental health nurse and then I followed the usual career progression into senior nursing roles, clinical leadership and I worked for 20 years in mental health services. In that time I completed a master's degree in family therapy. I then moved into a different part of the NHS in senior management positions and eventually took up the role of managing director of Northumbria health care's primary care subsidiary organisation. From my coaching journey around the year 2000 I had coaching myself which had a massive impact on me from a personal and professional point of view. I recognised some of the similarities of approaches, interventions and questions between coaching and systemic practice, family therapy and I became more and more interested in training as a coach. So I kind of used my influence in the organisation suggesting we offer coach training and then subsequently in 2014 myself and six of our coaches trained for the IELM level 7 coaching qualification. And then some years later I completed an internal coaching supervision course and then subsequently did the level 7 supervision qualification I think in 2021. So that's my kind of quick description of my career and my coaching journey. Thank you Julie and not all supervisors do the IELM 7 qualification. What have you found the particular benefits to be? Yes, for me it felt very different because I did the content of the course without doing the assignments first time round and I felt I was practising as a supervisor but I didn't feel fully confident in the skills of being a supervisor. So I managed to get a place on the qualification process or read the training but this time did the assignments alongside it and it felt very different and I think that was writing down my reflections on practice which you need to do to complete the assignments. It made it much more real and I think the process of doing the assignments so I read more. I didn't just pay a lip service to reading I actually read a lot more and I did a lot more real reflective practice. I got quite hung up on reflective practice as a training supervisor and that all increased my confidence kind of thing as my ability as a supervisor so I've really helped. I also made contact with a number of other training supervisors and we still stay in touch and meet together as it's a supervisor's PA support group a bit of peer supervision but it's mocks I like the people I trained with so that's really helpful and part of the supervision training we were introduced to a self assessment process as coaching supervisors and I found that quite helpful to understand where I needed to develop more. I was able to develop more or where I felt confident and subsequently every year or so I repeat that self assessment process it's based on Hawkins and show it's supervision and helping professions model. That's one thing I do now since I've undertaken the qualification as a supervisor and I also as a result of that thought it was important to establish some processes to seek feedback from the people I supervise so I introduced a evaluation form for supervisors to complete and give me feedback and also introduced an evaluation process for the easy process. For these group supervision sessions that we run in the organisation so we get regular feedback as supervisors which really helps my practice to get some feedback about what I do well and less well and what would be different. That's really interesting I mean that sounds like a pretty rigorous process really impressive actually I haven't heard that from too many people in the past. What sort of things have they come up with that you've found useful? So very often as the case I'm asking feedback from coaches if I say what was least helpful or what could I do differently very often the answer is nothing I'm happy with it at all. But then sometimes the will say having saw the last bit of common feedback I got from an individual supervisor was it would be really useful to be able to speak to you and I need to speak to you rather than waiting until the next supervision session which you've booked in the diary in advance. So the way to do that would be to give you the opportunity in our contract to review the supervision contract and say that you may contact me in between sessions if you need some ad hoc. The whole touch base session rather than the full formal supervision session so that was an example of how we've changed how I work with that individual. And for the group supervision feedback one of the things we ask for is do you have any suggestions for future CPD session or the organisation can do that so are we completed the annual evaluation of the group supervision about six weeks ago I think. And yes there were some themes there so people wanted some CPD in working with people who are on neurodivergent or again some more resilience working with people who struggle with resilience so we get themes from from that who has well in terms of that helps us then support the coaches on a wider level by targeting what CPD they get. I hope very good and we might talk a little bit more about organisation or learning and the sort of feedback later but that's really interesting and I heard a lumpy phrase yesterday and I was talking to somebody I think it's in that west where they have a lot of internal coaches and they talked about this business of the importance of people in supervision having access the supervisor between sessions and they called it a backbone session. If you actually need urgent supervision to discuss something and so you have a quick backbone session I thought that was a really nice idea because I think it can be a real issue some organisations that if you've got an ethical dilemma you don't want to really wait for six weeks for the next regular group supervision session to you. 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'We were working with a particular TNT company who trained most of us in the organisation and delivered the IOM training and qualifications and supervision courses for most of us in the network and she comes and does that CPD and we sometimes use her for the CPD for the coaches, sometimes for the coaches we'll deliver ourselves out and I don't know a session, so I know I did a training session on job crafting a few years ago so I kind of use that content and deliver that as an internal CPD session but our organisation is very committed to supporting coaching as a practice and has dedicated resource to the coaching network so we have a colleague in the OD team who has some dedicated time in his job to be the coaching coordinator so he helps coordinate diaries for the CPD in the supervision sessions and he does the kind of a matching process almost in terms of when requests come in for coaching so the organisation has absolutely committed to coaching as a practice and in the coaching network. Very good, can I just follow up something on the group supervision front? It's something that's come up a few times, which is whether the people who attend your groups and professions tend to be the same people so they build up that level of trust in a safe space or do they tend to, you know, 'cause I was thinking of the drop-in one presumably it's a bit of a moving population of people who show up therefore do you have any sort of observations on any of that? - Yeah, we do have some regulars, I hope people who are more regular but then the attendance really varies so some months we've got half a dozen coaches who turn up and then some months you turn up and go, wow, we've got 20 here. And we manage that and we're into quite a good rhythm and dance in the session and we always keep it to an hour because people have got busy diaries and I don't want them distracted, I haven't a jump off the call. So we always structure it's sort of, it's kept tight to an hour. We do a very quick check-in and most of the coaches who've been to a session previously understand the rhythm of the session and nor they'll say, "Hi, I'm Julie, "I'm coaching one new person, "I'm struggling with developing the contract "or the goals because we have a range of coaches "working at different levels "or some are very experienced qualified coaches "or there's more transactional quarters "who are just learning." So we do a quick check-in in the supervision session and then we pick out from that if there's anything people want to talk about. So we have about 30, 40 minutes talking about practice issues. So we try and theme it and then we do a very quick check-out. Even if it's a one-word check out at the end to make sure that we've wrapped that up. Yeah. We always have only once was I the only supervisor on the call. So I now always two days before the drop-in sessions, I always email the rest of the supervisors who all also have busy day jobs. So I always say to them, who's available on Wednesday, for instance, and kind of two of us might say, "I'm available "and I'll say to anybody else want to lead "or does anybody else want to do the check-in "and we kind of said it that way." So this is about succession planning in the organisation. Yes. You're clearly sharing the load. Absolutely, yes. And I'm seven and a half hours a week. And so it's about bringing in the new supervisors so that they can develop that skill and confidence in running a group session. Did you know that the EMCC UK holds a festival for members each year? The festival brings together current research and practice to offer insight into the growing field of coaching mentoring and supervision, offering insight into emerging systemic issues such as diversity and inclusion, AI, climate change, and more. Visit emccuk.org to find out details about our festival and other events throughout the year. (upbeat music) - Julie, just a couple of things that have come to my mind, one is about the requirement of supervision for coaches. Is there anything written down or accepted as a sort of basic need? - Yes, so we reinforce this in the organisation with our coaches. So we call it the Northumbria coaching network. So the organisation is Northumbria healthcare. And we set out all the coaches who are part of our network that there is an expectation that they attend at least one CPD session and at least one supervision session per annum. And we had a conversation as supervisors just earlier this week about how far our role needs to go to pull them back in if they're slipping or they're distracted with their day job. So we do have an expectation and we do reinforce that on time to time. So last year we had a big coaching conference for the organisation. So all the coaches were invited and we had external speakers. And again, we took that opportunity to remind people of the expectations. So the ask is that they do receive supervision and receive some CPD and that they practice professionally. a'i'r ffordd am ysgwch. yn gydyn因為 oedd i y Environmenti oeddwnar ang Bill Hundoko sifниi, ac mae hyn兩 cyheidio o gy Masters wedi f deals i brythio f Gucci i器 frerala. Mae'r ffyrddio gweld, ac mae'r ffyrddio yn ffyrddio yn y ffyrddio yn yna i'r gwaithio. Mae'r ffyrddio yn yna oeddwnar hyn yn ddynos i yw i'n gwaithio. Mae'r ffyrddio yn yna oeddwnar yna yn yna, mae'r ffyrddio yn yna yn yng Nghymru. Mae'r ffyrddio yn yna yn yna. Mae'r ffyrddio yn yna. there in our standard contract makes reference to the role of the coach, the role of the client and the shared roles and similarly also the supervision contracts have the same thing. So it's just bringing it back to the boundaries and the contract and what's helpful for the individuals. Thank you very much. I have also used the three Ps, I don't know if you're familiar with that nervous philosophy and process and I'm not talking to them about their philosophy of coaching. I find really helpful in getting them to figure out why they're there and what their role is there. What is the theory? They realise that the process, it's a methodology that is, you know, I've forgotten whose it is. Nothing, I said. It does matter. I'm more absolutely what the three Ps are so I'll let them. It's philosophy, process and practice so it's all purpose and process, I should say, philosophy, purpose and process. So what's my philosophy as a coach? What is my purpose in this instance as I'm coaching and then what's the best process that will combine the philosophy and the purpose so that we don't lose track of it? So it's sometimes a way of focusing them into their role in a comfortable way that helps them to understand that their role is to help somebody help themselves not to tell them what to do. Yeah, that's the name. One of the things that we often get into as supervisors in the organisation is looking at the kind of, if you think about the seven-eyed model of supervision and taking everybody's hooves into that. And we sometimes notice that there may be a parallel process going on here. So what's going on for the coach, that might be kind of the, is the coach themselves going into risk you are more there because of the overwhelm that's often experienced by the coaches. And then subsequently is the supervisor, is there a parallel process going on there? So I do think that in supervision and in coaching in our internal network and that may be because of it's in NHS context, we often do get into conversations about some of the restorative purposes of supervision because I know that our staff and our coaches are feeling overwhelmed and really by life, but just the ongoing pressures of the organisational context. So we do get some conversations about the restorative purpose as well as the normative reform of it as well. Thank you. And going back to the challenges, Julie, internal supervisors often talk about the challenges that they can face when compared with an external supervisor in terms of confidentiality, particularly if the internal supervisor is someone who may also be aware of who their coaches are coaching. So the whole area of confidentiality and how to both with the supervisor possibly guessing or knowing who the supervisor is talking about, but also possibly fellow coaches in the room, as part of the supervision group. And I just wondered how you dealt with those issues in group supervision where confidentiality could be at risk. Yeah, absolutely, it is a potential issue. So we always, in the group supervision session, at the very beginning, reinforce the contract around confidentiality and not necessarily naming people, let them bring in if they're talking about a coaching case that they talk about like my coach, they don't say Jeremy from this department. So we always reinforce that. The other coaches in the room also kind of reinforce it if necessary. And in the context of being an NHS organisation confidentiality is absolutely paramount. And we are all trained very regularly in information governance and the need to protect confidentiality, but we do reinforce it again. It's part of the contract. The written contract, it's also part of the verbal contract at the beginning of each session, so that we are all, and it's as I said, it's part of the dance, the rhythm of it. So we know now that kind of, it's very, very rare that people bring in things that I would have concerns about from a confidentiality point of view. Very good, thank you. And now that you're more of a arms length supervisor, I know you have a portfolio career now, so your seven-and-a-half hours is you're providing a service to the trust rather than being employed by the trust. So I imagine you have a contract there for with the trust for what you're delivering, and I was just wondering whether there's anything in there around a feedback loop. You were referring earlier to organisation or learning, is there any expectation on you to feedback to the organisation, things that come up in supervision groups? Yeah, okay, so just to clarify that I am still employed, so I have an employment contract. Yes, yes, so I'm gradually reduced my hours over the years, so I'm still an employee of the organisation for seven-and-a-half hours a week, and I describe it that way so that I can be flexible rather than just one day a week. So the agreement I have, and I speak to the kind of the HR director or the chief exec, and I'll say I'm happy to feedback themes, but I won't feedback names. As I said earlier on one occasion, there was a particular issue where I was concerned about the impact of one person's leadership behaviour, so I did use, I did name that individual. So I say that I won't feedback individual cases, so when I talk to the exec team, I will say that I'm coaching two general managers, two deputy directors, a consultant, but I don't say the names. If the individuals themselves want to say who they are, that's up to them, but it's not my role to do that, so I protect their confidentiality in that way, but I do agree that I will feedback themes and issues, and as we've discussed, I've already done that on occasions, but it's not contracted there, but it's a verbal agreement that I have. Great, and because you've worked there for so long as well, it must give you a particular sort of status or ability to influence within the organisation, which I think can only be helpful, I imagine. Hopefully, yes. As I say, we've got a good team of colleagues in the ODD department, learning and development team, who are trained coaches, and the coaching coordinator sits there, and together we try and manage the coaching network and influence together about how we take it forward. So it's with it being, I think it's still in that coaching week this week, so we've been doing lots of comms in the organisation to say this is coaching, who wants to access it, and we've been doing video blogs and things to kind of keep embedding and getting the message out there across the organisation. Thank you. And given that this is a high performing trust, and coaching is clearly making a significant impact towards that. I'm just wondering if Northumbria is being used, as an example elsewhere in the NHS that you get calls from elsewhere to say, how do you do it? There have been some calls for that, and some of my colleagues last year, I think, did speak at a national conference about this is the Northumbria model and how we work. Don't ask me what conference it was, I can't remember, but absolutely, and other organisations do kind of look to us and say, but I think in the North East we have quite a lot of other organisations, public sector organisations, or charitable organisations, where a lot of this stuff is being embedded as well, it's not just it's not just Northumbria healthcare, there are other local, there's a coaching collective, there are other local forums and groups who are trying to kind of embed the same kind of practice. Right, so the North East is a hotbed, I'm coaching good coaching practices. Absolutely. I'll leave it here. I think I must visit more often. You should. Thank you very much for that, Julie. It's fascinating, I mean there's so much going on there, that it's tremendous to hear of an organisation in which so much good practice is taking place, particularly from our perspective with the supervision and not just the breadth and quality of the supervision, but the sustainability of it in the organisation, that's really refreshing to hear and very welcome to hear. Also, the Northumbria is clearly leading the world in organisational coaching, it's always good to hear. So we usually finish by raising something that has caught our attention in each of the podcasts and I think that the one thing that I've, apart from mentioning that the three pieces is Jackson and back are over, by the way, I must bring that up because it's such an excellent technique. It works so well that I recommend it to everyone. What I find really interesting is the feedback because it is often so difficult to get good feedback as a coach, never mind as a supervisor. So to have such a good process of feedback, and I've been looking at clean language and the clean feedback process as well. You've encouraged me to introduce much more formality into my feedback process so that I can do the learning that you're getting from it. So thank you very much for raising that Julie. How about you, Catherine? Yes, I'd love that one as well. And the self-assessment process that you use regularly for evaluating your own supervision practice, that sounded absolutely terrific. I think I was also very struck by the fact that, and this will be because the NHS is under such pressure and as you were saying, that overwhelms a big thing, that supervisors don't always talk about the restorative aspects of their role. And I can see how it's a really important angle often in your practice. And it was just very nice to hear that being highlighted. So thank you very, very much for joining us, Julie. I've found that absolutely terrific. And say goodbye everyone until the next time. Absolutely, goodbye. Thanks again, Julie. Thank you, thank you so much and thank you to all my coaching colleagues in our network. Thank you for listening to this podcast from the EMCCUK. Together our aim is to promote good practice and the expectation of good practice in coaching, mentoring and supervision. To learn more about the EMCCUK and to find out about membership, accreditation, events, CPD opportunities and learning resources, visit emccuk.org. And remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a future episode. [MUSIC]