Insights from Hayley Verbunt: Australian Team Coxswain- Episode 20

Welcome to Merkantile Radio, the podcast for rowers, coaches and supporters. We share stories and insights and lessons from the boat, the club and the broader rowing world. Join us on this journey as we dive deep into what makes rowing so enjoyable for so many. Before I start the episode today, just want to make a little announcement. We've loved doing the episode so far with our coaches and athletes that we've had a chance to interact with. It's all about creating a conversation. Merkantile Radio, the red and white transistra as I keep referring to it, is all about bringing those conversations to you, our audience. If you've been enjoying the show so far, please consider subscribing to us on Spotify. Send us a comment. Let us know what you'd like to hear about more. Any guest you'd like us to have on, any questions you'd like us to ask, it's all really helpful feedback. Now to the episode. Welcome to Merkantile Radio. And today we have another guest with a national team athlete, who's down from Penra. And we have a chance here. This is fascinating because I've been waiting to have a coxen involved in one of our interviews where I can really get into the space of what it's like to be sitting in a boat, having their instruction, their motivation, all the stuff that comes with that. So, Hayley, the Bun, welcome. Thank you very much for having me. Great to have you here. And I've just briefed you before this. And I've said to you pretty much you can take this wherever you like. I'm sitting in your crew. We're at a major event. We've got two minutes to go. This starter has said the last two minute call. We have those moments of silence and space. What are you doing in saying as a coxen to help me as an athlete and the crew to get ready for the start? I think what I found over the last few years is I almost used my own emotions and my own feelings to guide what I think the crew needs to hear in those moments. I'm sitting there. I'm also feeling the nerves starting to build like getting closer and closer to that starting time. So I almost let my internal monologue take over and use that to kind of guide what I need to say. So usually I'm providing a little countdown at the time. So yeah, okay, we've got two minutes or it should be 90 seconds now till we're going to hear the roll call and just using that time as we get closer and closer to that go. I had a coach who provided the inside of almost using each minute you get closer and closer to that start time your focus should narrow and narrow. So maybe at five minutes beforehand, that's what we're talking about. Yep, I just breathing sitting here when I'm relaxed and I might run down what the race plan is when we get to four minutes. All right, we're just thinking about that sort of first thousand meters. What are we doing as we come out of the blocks? What are we doing as we step into our rhythm? Okay, we're three minutes now guys to start time just reminding okay, we're breathing again. We're staying relaxed. We're just thinking about that first 500 meters. What are we doing in that first one minute and 29 seconds for the race? Okay, two minutes now. What are we doing in those first 10 strokes? Where's our mind? Where's our focus? Come down to one minute. We're just on that first stroke. We're breathing. We're relaxed. We know exactly what we need to do and focus is just narrow down to that first stroke. Our current head coach James loves to talk about beyond the stroke that you're on. So when you're in that 60 seconds before a race, whether it's something at a state championships, a national championships, an Olympic final, that last minute, you're just narrowed on that first stroke, that first movement. And yeah, I feel like I'm constantly just reminded to breathe, stay relaxed, stay present, and also that reminder to stay on my voice, stay in my boat. I think even at the start line, it's one of those things that's usually dead silent aside from the Cox saying little bits and pieces or you can sometimes hear the officials getting ready. So we're just in our boat person in front, person behind that one stroke just on us. Oh, love it. And I'm sitting here grinning from ear to ear. I'm ready to race. So if you're our audience listening to this, we are now sitting on the start line. We have Haley as a Cox and I heard from Page Bar, we're in Haley's hands, we're wanting to come and she made. We're in Haley's hands, Haley's in charge and you definitely sound like you're in charge. Now I want to put it out there. We're sitting forward now. I'm sitting forward. What seat would I be? What seat would you put me in? Oh, I feel like you have a fair bit of experience in any seat in the boat. You can go and stroke. I just had Paige. She's had plenty of experience in the stroke. So you're welcome to take her spot. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. Now I'm sitting back in the boat. I'm maybe bow or two, one of those two seats. I'm sitting there. I'm sitting forward. The start is done the roll call. We have a light system as we all know now. The lights turn red. It's turn green. You're in charge. I like to think about the way that a race will unfold, particularly in an eight at least to me is you just want to think about you have a race plan and you have the bones of a race. And I think that first 100 meters, that's a set play. If you think about what you're running through that first 10 strokes that first almost mark, I think most of the time pretty much to you about the 300 meter mark. It's a set play. It should be no surprises and it should be extremely internal. I would like to think that any of the girls maybe like a page who's been in many boats. I'd been in before could almost recite what I would say for those periods of time early on in a race back the front because it shouldn't be anything that we haven't rehearsed before. If that's the bones of that's a skeleton of your race plan. I think then when you start to step in more to that middle section of the race. That's where as a Cox you start to have a bit more freedom and that's where it's about responding to the race responding to what's happening around you. And within that, you'll still have some bones. Some structure is OK. We know at this point in the race. We're going to make this move or we're going to respond in this way. But it's definitely when you start to step into that middle 1000 that's where it goes to more in your hands more in your control and then once again when you come into that last 500 meters, it's almost you go back to that set play narrowing back down more bones more structure. So it's almost like yeah set play freedom to respond finish off with a set play and using that almost Ellen Randell one of the coaches of the national training center. Love to talk about narrow focus and wide focus and if you start a race narrow and you finish a race narrow it's in that middle section where you really need to expand your awareness as a Cox and expand your ability to respond and then shift it back down into being narrow in that last section. Love it now I'm suspecting Alan might have got that reference from Jeff Bond who was a psychologist working with us in 1996 because he worked with James Tompkins who was steering the boat in the two seat which was broad focus narrow focus and broad focus was taking in with the boys are steering properly taking in the competitors narrow focus was back on the rhythm back on his steering. Inside we're sitting on the start line do the roll call for me to the race plan for me bring me into the things you would actually say to a crew if I was sitting in front of you in the two seat bousey three seat whichever said I'm lucky enough to be in order to be if I think back to races that we've done in the last 12 months for us we know OK that first stroke with focusing flatness fill keeping it through the feet down low we know for us rhythm is really essential especially in the eight I think that's one of the most important parts of an eight is making sure as we step through that 25300 meters like that's our rhythm this is our race our boat making sure we're in that rhythm and really focusing on carrying that through to we sort of hit that 859 hundred meter mark. And really making sure as we step into the second thousand of the race that is the most integral part of making sure you've got your rhythm and you're able to carry speed in that second part of the race we like to say anyone can win it to the thousand is what you do after that really counts. So making sure that we have full commitment in that 900 850 meter stage of the race. And we're able to shift our speed carry our speed into that third 500 meters and then be ready to take home really clearly in that last 750 odd meters absolutely love it now we're sitting there. The lights about to go green what are your calls first 500 I think I've used the same sort of calls for the start now for a number of years I think I've probably used the same ones in in Paris now they think back to it. But yeah I think sort of that first 10 15 strokes is very much flat fill flat fill flat fill build build move now I really think that first kind of five 10 strokes like simplistic don't over complicated just very clear direction. And like a very clear understanding with the girls having worked on things technically for six months 12 months they don't need more than a few words to know what they need to be doing I love this by the way. I'm actually in the boat I feel like I'm I'm taking off. I brought right back to it. Yeah well I'm truly so what do you call through say 250 and 500 what are your calls you making because I think it's really important for our audience to understand it doesn't matter if you're rowing through school through club whatever might be you've got these structure use you sort of described you've got this structure as to things you're going back to the crew knows intimately what are the calls that you love to use you love to see and really inspire the crew with big part of it is the structure of the delivery of a call and making sure that you're in that race in context that it's extremely clear what you're doing who's doing it when you're doing it and how you're doing it so for me if I'm calling a shift or move in the race whether that's 25500 I'm going to be making sure I'm running through that mental checklist of if we're making a move on somebody like what specifically is that move so okay guys where two seats down on grape and I need to see and I need to write out this is like this is the goal time we need to be making a shift and have given a clear directive I need to see how is it we're doing this if I need to be providing it technical framework is to how we're making this move. What part of the stroke is we're focusing on, what part of the stroke is the crew really looking to utilize to make that shift. This season we were working a lot on making sure that we're picking up the boat and the correct way and making sure we're making the most of that front end speed. So I need to see, we're gonna be sharp out front. Let's make sure we're getting the blades in. So providing a really clear directive as to how we're doing that. Usually I find that providing, keeping it personal and making sure that you're really providing people accountability to what's happening in the boat. If we're talking about the front end of the stroke, I really find that having people at the front of the boat leading that can make the biggest difference. So if I'm using pages an example, page us, you're leading this, like, you're gonna be the one to lead us through this change, making sure everyone, okay, we know what we're doing, we know our company needs to be of this in one now. Like, I've given you the go time, this is when we're making this move. - This is the stroke. - This is the stroke, like, let's make sure we're doing it. So if that's provided a clear directive of what we need to do, who's leading it, whether you're pairing that up, okay, if so we need to take a seat, we've been out and made this move, reiterating it with some really simple calls of, sharp, loose, whatever it is, so as mental reminders, and cues to understand what it is I'm trying to elicit from the crew, and then providing feedback as we go through this move. Like, yeah, that's half a seat right there, page us, like, yeah, exactly what we need to be doing. If someone else I've seen, it's made a really good shift. - Yep. - I see that blade work, I see you're making that change, we're going, we're going. Okay, it's a seat now. You've made a move, let's make another. And using that sort of framework, repetitively through the race to make sure that, you're building as you go, and you're carrying that positive momentum, I think, that's a really integral part, particularly in a, you've got so many people. And once you've got momentum, keep building with that, keep moving with that, and utilizing that to your advantage with the race. - Well, love it. That is fascinating though, like that whole thing of what are the specific calls, and then how do you get in either people's individually or collectively as a crew, and how do you follow up? I love hearing that. I love hearing about being in the boat, and you've referenced. - Page us. - Just page us. We've got all these nicknames everywhere. That's really cool. I could imagine sitting in a boat with you, making these calls, and I know you're talking through us now. The ability to get the most out of any crewmate is fantastic. I love that. Let's go back in time. Let's go back to where Rowan all began for you. What was it like when you first started getting involved in rowing at school? Because I can see your passion now. You're in Susie as in what you do. What was it like in the other days? - So I started rowing at Ferbank grammar school. I started when I was in year eight, and Ferbank had quite a rich history of rowing was a very popular sport at the school, and was something I had. Other than my friends, older sisters were involved. It was sort of something you wanted. If you were a sporty kid, rowing was the sport that you wanted to be involved in. And despite how popular it was, Ferbank's a relatively small school, and had quite a limited capacity for the rowing program. And I think it had, say, a cap on. And you could only have 30 girls within the year nine program who were allowed to row. We just didn't physically have the capacity for any more than that. So I signed up for Learn to Row, went out with all my friends, did that for a couple of weeks, loved it, loved the Sheds, loved being there, seen the older girls. It was just such an exciting atmosphere to be a part of. And say we had 50 odd girls signed up for this rowing program. And we sort of did the Learn to Row, and then we came to a three day final camp. And it was that was the end of the Learn to Row. And they sort of said to us, "Right girls, we're gonna do three days of training. "Every day we're gonna do a 500 meter earth test "on these three days of training. "When we get to the end of our three days, "we're gonna, you know, if only got 30 spots available, "there's more than 30 of you here. "We're gonna have to make some cuts, unfortunately." - Oh, harsh. - So, you're gonna do your 500 meter earths each day. And what they would do is you would do your earth test, and they would put everyone's names down in the spreadsheet, and then they would print it off and stick it on the door. - Oh, wow. - And it would go from top of it down the bottom. And if your name was in the gray box, it's down the bottom, that meant that if you didn't move up the following day, you were gonna be cut at the end of the three days. And I think I did maybe the earth test on the first day of the year. To save to save being, I was quite a small, small year-rate student. My name was quite far down the earth ranking list. So I was sort of in that moment new, okay, well, if I'm probably not making it out of this gray zone over three days, so sad to say that I probably won't be making it as a row up, but having been one of the girls on the smaller side and someone who was quite outgoing, and cried next river, and even then, I heard a heart, some of the coach say, "Oh, you know, this, we need some cocks." You could be someone who's been suited to this. They're selling it really well. And I was lucky that Fairbank actually had quite a few cocks as employed as coaches, so I think they were keeping their eye out for girls who maybe would be suited to the role. So they quite instantly, when they saw I was a bit of a small, lanky child, and I probably wouldn't be suited to the row. And no, you could be good at this. So I'd quite come to blame you from that moment when I wasn't quite nailing the earth testing, and probably wasn't gonna be in the program as a rower that cocks seems like my way in. And there's something that I was very excited about. So yeah, I think even within the first hour of sale on that last three day training camp, I was like, "Yep, more than happy to be a cocks, this sounds fantastic." - That's less five-and-a-meter-ego. - Less five-and-a-meter-ego. And I think I was just, yes, so excited by the idea of this program and the community that it offered. And I remember even we had the year 11 and 12 girls speak to us over that sort of learn to row period, and just looking up with them with such idolization, and knowing that, yeah, this was something I wanted to be a part of in any way that I could. So if Rowie wasn't on the cards, then absolutely, cocksing sounded like a fantastic compromise. And yeah, looking back now, I can't imagine ever not being a part of the program there at Furbank. And yeah, that sort of kicks out a little, and I enjoyed the cocksing so much that every year, it was a no-brainer to even have to think about whether I'd be coming back the following seasons. And I think I enjoyed it so much in those early days. And we had fantastic coaches at the Furbank program. John Novak and Sarah Benday, but it was some of my first coaches there, along with Alice who would run the program. I'm in Caitlin Johnson, who now run PBR Rowing. I was so excited by it, and I just wanted to be, I wanted to be so good, I wanted to get better, and I really wanted, I think we had an account, nine, eight, quad, and them was just so, like that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be in that crew that even I remember if I started rowing, say it would have been probably, maybe September, October of my year, eight, year, the over the summer holidays, I started coxing masters at Mercantile Road. - You really? - Yeah, because I think I would have been sat maybe in the nine seas or the nine days. Like I was okay, but I wasn't doing anything groundbreaking. And I just put, for whatever reason, put my mind to it, I desperately wanted to be in that nine-air quad, so I thought, "Well, yeah, I'm gonna get better at this, if I practice, and I don't think any Mercantile or Melbourne Uni, there were the other end of the river, "Powerhouse was worth it, I'm just rowing out of it, so I remember E-Main the club coach and asked if they needed any coxers, so. - Love that. - Coxmas is over the summer. - So good. - Yeah, managed to end up making the nine-air quad and yeah, rest is history. - Rest is history from there. And I'm sure our audience can tell right now that the enthusiasm comes through even in your voice. It's amazing just that you've got for the sport. Do you remember what your early school was? A 500, no. No, I can guarantee it would have been a buzz, yeah. Well, into probably two, 30s, two, four, it would have been atrocious, but no, I don't quite remember. - Plus, you get back on the, you have to get on the Irgo tour right now with the athletes. - No, I actually don't know the last time I would have jumped. - So you're happy just there goes long, distant memory? - Yeah, the Irgo is a long, distant memory. I remember in school actually, Ferbmate holds a world record for like, meters, rodent, 24 hours. - Really? - So I remember doing Irguying for that, and I've raced a few times in a double skull with other coxes. - Yeah. - But no, I can't say I've done any Irguying as a reason. - It was enough of an experience. - Yeah, that was 500 meters traumatized me clearly, so it haven't touched it. - So good, I love it. Transition in the club, what was that like for you? - Again, it was almost a complete no-brainer when I finished my school rowing period. David McGraw was the head of Ferb Mancrawing at that time, another mercantile, a mercantile coxon, and as a lot of the club coaches do, they'll reach out to schools when the school season finishes up and say if you have anyone interested, they can come on down to the club, come on down to Broadhouse Drive, give it a try, and Nick Mitchell was the head coach at the time at Merkin Tile, and he'd reached out to Coach McGraw as we called him and CMG, Coach McGraw, as well being an ex-merkantile member, said, "Yeah, if any of you guys are interested, "would recommend head down for a Saturday row." And there was quite a group of us at Ferb Mancraw really interested and loved rowing at school, and we all went down to the club together, and same thing instantly fell in love with being there, the welcoming atmosphere in Nick Mitchell's fantastic, I remember he was so engaging those first few days that we went down, and I think as well, it would have been COVID when I first started heading down to the club, and I don't think we were even allowed in AIDS, I don't think, for the first couple of sessions I went down, so I was pretty much on the bike, I think, for a number of sessions, but I just remember talking to the coaches and David Colvin Chippell was there and talking to him on the bike, and yeah, I just, it was so exciting, and I thought I had been someone who'd always enjoyed, I suppose, trying to get the best out of myself and out of my cruise and had sort of a very much, back in juniors, I wanted to be in the nine days, and then it was the 10 A's, and I really wanted to be in the first eight, and getting to Merkin Tile then, seeing more people excelling and aspiring towards excellence, it was like, well, this is the place that I want to be, and I think throughout school had maybe been down to a few other clubs along Broadhouse Drive at various points for winter programs or other bits of coxing, but for whatever reason, yeah, when I stepped into Merkin Tile, it was like, and I know Brainer, this is where I want to be, this is clearly the place where, if I want to go to the next level, if I want to aspire towards Graham, like this is where I need to be. So yeah, I think it was within a number of sessions. I remember writing an email to Nick Mitch saying that like, yep, sign me up. Like, this is where I want to be. And yeah, it was one of those things that I enjoyed growing so much through school that it was, well, if I enjoyed it so much, well, would I ever, why would I stop? And then I think year after year at the club when I was in under 21s, it was the same thing of when one sees and finish, it was, well, that was amazing. That was like, I couldn't have asked for a better experience. So of course, I'm going to go again and again and again. So yeah, I guess almost the idea of not continuing growing and not being at market at almost never crossed my mind. It just felt like I was in the right place from the moment I stepped through those doors. - And I love that. The sense of achievement that you're describing, which is, I've done this now, I want to do that. Yeah, there's another thing beyond that. I want to get to that level, I want to move on. I love when I hear from people involved in not only Asport, but also other sports who have that real drive to just go, awesome. Okay, what's next? What's next? What's next? From a coxing side of things, and I hear this all the time, so an athlete pathways usually much clearer than the coxing pathway. And yet for me, coxins, particularly when we're dealing with the eight, but also management around a club, the coxins play such a critical role. What was done in terms of development for you by others that you really felt set you up for success? - Yeah, I was so incredibly lucky for the support that I had throughout my time going from school to club to then making onto the national team. And definitely, like you said, the coxing pathway, I like to think is extremely unique to each and every coxin, no matter who you talk to, we'll all event it up. If it is on a national team, five different routes and journeys to getting there, and something that I'm so lucky to have had at Merk and Tile was from the minute I stepped through those doors, having coaches such as Chipper or Sam Pennecy when he was at the club instantly. It was, well, wherever you want to get to, we're gonna make sure you get there and we'll do everything in our power to help get you there. And I remember so vividly within my first season of coxing, I was fresh out of school, I'd only just turned 18, and I think it was the first ever time that nominations had come around for, it would have been the national team. So I was 18, so nominating for the under 21 Australian team was sort of that first. If you wanna be putting yourself forward for a national team, that's the one you should go to. And I remember Feno saying to me, well, why don't you just nominate for the senior team? And the 23, just nominate for it all. You know, there's no harm. Like, what's the worst that happens? You don't get picked, so just nominate. And I remember thinking, I mean, the man has a point. I see what's the worst that can happen. So I remember from, literally from the first year that I was at Merk's having been fresh out of high school at 18, I was nominating for the senior national team, and Paul 18 rolled me, probably wasn't quite ready to make that step yet, but it was just the encouragement of, you know, if that's the pathway that you wanna go on, then 100% go for it. And I think even then I knew in the back of my head of, okay, well, if I may team now, maybe in a few years, hopefully I can make it an under aged team. And then, you know, maybe if I make an under aged team, and I, you know, can make an under 23 team in a few years, then, you know, the senior team could be something I could be aspiring towards, like, in heading into the LA limpiat, like pushing for that in a few years' time, but there was up instantly that support and belief around me. And, okay, well, if that's what you wanna do, like, that's step you're on that pathway now. And I remember my first year of youthies, I was lucky enough to make the Victorian under 21 team, and the elation that I felt having made that crew was something I'd never experienced before, and having been able to do it with girls that I'd been in a crew with throughout the season. It was just so incredibly exciting that all the hard work we'd put in throughout that season had meant that we got selected together was just phenomenal. I've still even thinking about it now. It makes me so happy. And I remember then getting selected to attend the under 23 Australian trials, following the conclusion of the nationals, and even, again, making that was something that I had thought was used down the track for me, you know, couldn't quite believe it, but then I remember being a trials, and it not quite go my way, and getting de-selected, not even de-selected, I didn't end up making the team, and it was one of those things that, obviously, anyone who's been through a deselected process or hasn't been picked for a team knows it like, it's not the easiest thing. Especially you've put in a lot of hard work throughout the season, and I think for me it was almost the fairytale of having made a Victorian team, and having we ended up winning a national championship that year that it was just, like, had had what I thought was like, the best run ever. Couldn't believe my eyes that this had succeeded unfolded in front of me, so then, as sort of ending the season on a bit of a low, if not having been picked for a team. It was a bit disappointing, but I just loved the process so much that it was an old brand new, well, we'll go again next year and we'll give it another crack. And then, ended up making the under-21 men's-ate the following year, and that was, yeah, extremely surreal feeling once again, having done that, and to be now with my friends. And I think for me, that trajectory of the first few years of, yeah, made an under-21 state, he ended up making under-21 national team is a bit more sequential in terms of, if you think of wrong Australia pathways, if, yeah, under-21, under-23 senior, so that was sort of unfolded in that way. And then, heading into the end of 2022, I would have been 19, 20 years old. I remember I was working under Nick Mitchell, a school in Melbourne coaching there, having a great time. And I met a man, a man, who was also working at that same school at that same time, and she was coaching there, and getting to know her and talking about, yeah, love my cock seeing super excited about it, was just having a blast. And I remember her saying to me, you know, you should really get in contact with John Keo, who was the head coach at the Women's Training Center at the time. And I was like, me, getting in contact with the National Training Center head coach, Amanda, I'm flattered that you think that that's, you know, something that I could do. - That's a love beast. - And she was like, no, no, it's like, I back you. Like, you should, you know, reach out. There's no harm in it. Like, with coxing, you've got to, your selection a lot of the time, as much as it can be beneficial or not. It's subjective, and it's, you people need to see you and know who you are to put yourself out there for that. And I remember so vividly sitting upstairs at the Hawthorne Rowling Club Sheds, and having my laptop out and her helping me write this email, and something along the lines of, hi there. Like, my name's Hayley, I'm from Merk and Tile Rowling Club. And like, my dream is, I want a cox for Australia, and I want to go to the Olympics. I'd love to have a chat too if you have any time about, you know, how I could maybe get there one day. And I remember Nick Mitchell also, when he caught Wind of Amanda scheme to try and help, get in contact with John, he said, absolutely. He's one of my favorite quotes that I still think back to very regularly, even now is don't be a coward. Just if somebody need to get after, don't be a coward, you just have to have that second of bravery. And I thought, all right, like, let's do it. So we sent off this email, and from there, it was sort of this whirlwind unfolding of, I ended up doing, I think, some training rows with the Victorian Queen's Cup in meetings, some people like Lucy Steffan, Catwery, and sort of talking to them about it, and then saying, yep, like Amanda's right, like you just got to put yourself out there, and I didn't end up getting in contact with John, and he got back to my email, and I went up and visited the training center a few times. And I remember it was sort of, yeah, this rapid succession of staying on people's couches and pendurates so I could come out and cocks at the training center, getting on a plane every few months to go up and visit, going to a December time trials. And I think at first, it was almost, I remember, it would have been my 20th birthday. I spent at the Australian December time trials, and being there and everyone kind of being like, who is this child that's walking around? Like what on earth is she doing yet? I remember going out with a bunch of people for dinner on my birthday, and a few people say, oh, what birthday is this? I was like, oh, I'm turning 20, kind of think of you like, no, no, no, no, how old do you turn? It's no, like I'm turning 20. And yeah, then the trials that following March, I ended up getting picked for the senior team, so I had just turned 20 and ended up in the process skipping a few age groups, and suddenly my trajectory of the few years prior of following that very sequential order of making under-aged teams, I kind of just skipped a few years and ended up on the senior team, but I fully accredited that and being able to put myself in that position to having the support of the people around me, whether it was Amanda, Nick Mitch, Kat Lucy, other girls on the Victoria team, Jess Morris, and the coaches at Merck's for really just being like, if you want this, you can put yourself out there and more support you the whole way. We believe in you, you just need to believe in yourself. And what's the worst that happens? You know, if it doesn't look quite work out this year, well, you can have a crack next year and we'll be there to help pick out the pieces if things don't go the way you want them to. So yeah, it was a very crazy experience looking back that wouldn't happen any other way. Absolutely amazing. And I think that's the reason why I wanted to ask the question about pathway, because I think you can follow the sequence. As a Cox and as a Roar, or as a Coach, you can follow the sequence or you can take initiative. And for me, there's a lot of people that don't realise that if you take initiative, you don't always get there, but it's amazing how all of a sudden people start to advocate for you because you're showing an unusual sense of motivation for putting you in your uncomfortable zone or getting out of your space and all that stuff. And I always say, reach out to the Roar that you want to row with. Reach out to the Coach. You'd love to be coached by. I reach out for advice for guidance, whatever my be. I'm really similar to what you just described there. I don't think I'd ever made, would have made the scene in national team in rowing as quickly as I did, unless I had have said to Ben, "I will do you wanna go for a row and a pair?" And Ben had just come back from the world championship and I threw it and I've shared this story briefly before, but I remember walking up to him thinking, "Oh, he won't wanna row with me." He won't wanna row with me. And I didn't even explain to him a few times and all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, Ben, how is the world's atmosphere?" Would you like to go for a row and a pair and start and say, "She's going, yeah, why not?" (laughing) I think as well rowing is one of those things where I think the community aspect of the sport is so incredibly strong that you might have that, "Well, why would I wanna row with me?" But I like to think that everyone who's ended up doing something in rowing has had someone had it, take a chance on it at some point and it's almost that when you're presented with that opportunity, it's like a way of giving back. So I've never, I don't think, had an instance where I've taken that moment of, would you be interested in doing this with me or having a conversation with me where anyone's ever turned around and said, "No." And I think that's something that's so special about rowing and about mercantilians in particular I like to think. So yeah, it is really just having that split second of, you know, put yourself out there and have that belief in yourself. And hopefully then it'll be paid back to you. Definitely. Mercantile radio. Now a little acknowledgement of one of our great supporters, 776 BC, rowing a peril. 776 BC, founded by two-time Olympian embaging civil-medalist Cameron McKenzie McCarge. 776 BC makes a peril with the same passion and intensity and desire to succeed as you as an athlete, made by athletes, four athletes. I want to thank 776 BC for the support of Mercantile Radio. Mercantile radio. Now I've told you a bit of a story here, which you won't know, but David Colvin, a chipper as you've finally said as well. - The legend. - Yeah, the legend. The legend, the myth. I said recently, he'll be doing what he's doing for the next 100 years. - Oh, definitely. - He'll be like a Yoda of rowing at mercantil. I remember him using your name. And he referenced Coxons who he was so impressed by that he thought had a massive future. I don't even know you from anything. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, Hayley, okay, is this person, what's going on here? And what's the stuff? And then within one 12-month period, one season, all of a sudden, you're on the national team. And it's like, "Cheers, chipper, had the good oil on that one, didn't it?" - No, chippers. Yeah, he has been integral in my development. And I think if you look at any of the Coxons from Mercantile who've had international success over the last 10, 20, maybe even longer period, 100% David Colvin has had something to do with them and their progression. So he's definitely an incredible asset when it comes only to Mercantile's Coxons. But I would say the Australian national team given a lot of us who have come through his guidance. So yeah, Chippers, very much a legend of the sport and a legend of Cox, as I would say. - Yeah, and I think you point there too, is not just a wealth of knowledge, but a willingness to care and invest the time and energy. It's really easy for some people to have the knowledge. But for some like chipperies, always open for the idea of sharing those sites and having those conversations. And he's memory recall of things. So he could have a conversation with you and you've probably experienced this. He could have a conversation with you two weeks ago. And he will remember that. And he will have only of what either he said or you said and either hold you to account or it encourages it to realize that all the words, all the thinking, always matter. And you're right about the Coxons. You said Dave McGraw before, Chipper would have had an impact on him. - Definitely. - And he's gone on and done what he's done and he's coaching as well. So let's do this. Let's bring us right into the boat for a second. I asked you about sitting on the start line and walking us through that. I'm more interested right now. What are the feelings you look for in the Coxons? See, what's the sensation you aim for that you want the crew to give you and craters and experience that you then give them feedback on or then you communicating about, what's it like for you sitting in that seat? - I think that idea of boat feel is something that I've definitely worked on over the last few years and I like to think that there's very critical touch points into where I'm sitting in the boat. And obviously I don't have an all, but I am connected to the physical hull in other ways and whether that's my feet against it's not a foot plate necessarily, but a foot board you could say. And I have my back and my hips are touching the back of the boat. I have my hands on the rudder strings and my pinkies usually gripped around the side of the boat. So I am feeling the boat in all those different areas. And I think nowadays it's really about being in tune to each of those different elements and what I'm feeling there. And I think I've been lucky that I've been in boats that have had that sensation of like almost like they're humming when they're going so far so smoothly it feels like the flow of the boat and the flow of the rhythm is completely uninterrupted and it's almost like a metronome in generating its speed and the rhythmical feel to that. And I think I now, I wouldn't say it's visualization, but I almost, if I sit here and close my eyes, I can picture in my mind and those sensations of when the boat is moving so fluidly and that generation of speed, it's okay. Am I feeling a disconnect or a disjoint in any part of the stroke that is interrupting that fluid movement and that consistency of rhythm in the boat? And then being okay, I am feeling a little jolt here, a little kick there. And where am I feeling that? Am I feeling that through my feet, through my back, through my hands? Okay, what part of the stroke is that? Is it the blade through the water, entering the water, disengaging from the water? And then trying to narrow down as much as you can what that sensation is. And then I like to think coxing sometimes is almost like you're being a bit of a detective in. Okay, this is a piece of evidence or a clue that I have and then trying to draw together. Okay, this is what I'm feeling now. What am I seeing? What am I hearing? Using those pieces of evidence to draw together a conclusion of, okay, if I'm feeling in my back, that slight kick back or that slight jolt and it's just as the blades are entering the water through the front turn. Okay, well, what am I seeing with the blade? Where I can, what am I seeing with the puddles? What am I hearing? Is it sounding clunky? Is it sounding smooth? Is it sounding like one sound or is it different noises? And the more intruder you can get to that and the better you can get at finding those tiny pieces of evidence to piece together a bigger picture, that's when then you can come back to, okay, well, I'm not feeling this beautiful smooth harmonious run on the boat. I'm feeling that slight. Clink in the arm or somewhere. What can we do to fix it? And how can I smooth that out again? So you have that feeling of almost floating and gravitating in the cocks' seat. And I'm sure it's funny because I know I hear row is talking about when a boat's moving perfectly and just how incredible that feeling is and when you're in those boats that just move perfectly. And it's funny because I can relate. I know you're talking about it. And it's, well, we have completely different experiences when we're in the boat, but I like to think that we, or rowers and cocksers can relate to that. When a boat is moving, like you know that feeling of perfect fluidity and, yeah, when you just have that momentum at the boat, just you're on with the boat and it's moving perfectly. I love that. And I love the way you've gone about just even just scribing that for us because I think you've shown us the working sort of process when you're sitting in the cocks' seat because you're picking up on bits and pieces. I mean, you're probably the Sherlock Holmes of rowing investigation on the water, right? But you're picking up on the bits and pieces and then you go, okay, so what's the problem? Trying to come and solve. So let's build on that for a second. If I was to throw a few problems at you, what are you saying? What are you doing? What are you feeling? Platforms off at the finish. A little bit, dude, a little bit squirmy. What are you doing? I think firstly, anything that's coming with balance with the boat's moving around a bit. First, it's a little bit timing. Are we rowing in time? Are we doing the same thing at the same time? You're having different people doing different things. Probably you're going to interrupt the flow of the boat. So yeah, firstly, timing, I'd say. Then also in a uniformity. Are we doing the same thing side to side of the boat with the same people? If you're talking about the finish and the release, I think for me, the biggest point there. And I think for coxes, I would say your biggest source of evidence is the blade work. Visually, it's a thing that you can see the most clearly. So using that as a really clear indicator of, okay, what am I seeing with the blade for blade work? Am I seeing uniformity in front of me side to side? Different people coming off the blade work. You've also got the puddles as sort of a follow on from that, okay, what's happening with the puddles? Am I seeing really big puddles on one side? Am I seeing smaller ones on one? Making sure again, okay, do we need to make adjustments side to side them? And I think the last thing you're talking around the back turn and feeling that little bit disjointed, I think something in an eight and something that I've sort of learned through the years is an eight to big boat and usually making sure that you have, you don't always have to be flocking it, but I think to assist with the run of the boat and having that really smooth run on it, usually having a little bit of power and the water helps with that. So I think that will always help you a little bit more power and the water, it's gonna help with that step out and help with how the boat's trimming. So I think just making sure I'm mental in the back of the head, not do we have enough grain for the water and that usually will help smooth things out a bit then taking into account what you're seeing around the back turn and making sure, I think visually it looks similar and people doing the same thing. Outstanding, love it. You're feeling the check at the catch, but the crew's maybe not picking up on it, they may be trying too hard. What would you do? - Yep, I think talking about the front turn and the pickup of the boat, I think it's one of those things in rowing that you spend so much time working on it and in theory it should be so simplistic, but I would argue the catch is usually the point that crews have the most difficulty in nailing and an analogy that I had our current head coach James Harris utilized last season, which is one of, I think, if not the best analogy or metaphor I've heard for just trying to do it. driving the front end and describing the pickup of the boat is a flywheel, Laura. If you're spinning a bike wheel, if you imagine keeping a bike wheel going and you're trying to generate more speed with that, do you try and go and grab a bike wheel while it's spinning and you try and really grip onto it? You're probably going to struggle to grab onto the bike wheel properly or in the process of doing so you're going to stop the momentum of that wheel. Inversely, if you want to be able to pick it up properly, you actually need a timer with the spinning of the bike wheel and you need to have that looseness to be able to grab on and make sure you've got a grip but not so tensely that you're slowing the momentum of the bike or the flywheel. So having that looseness and relaxation and that emphasis on timing at right to be able to pick it at that right moment and then making sure, okay, once you're connected, you've got to grab that wheel that you can then have the fluidity to move with it and be able to generate speed more through the pin. So I think nowadays when we are talking about that front turn is trying to be really nuanced with what you're doing with it. And I think those sort of general broad themes of looseness and accuracy are really integral to making sure that you tie in that front turn while you're able to pick it up without slowing the momentum of the boat in the process. Love it and I'm sitting there hearing James Tompkins describe to me. New Ons is in rowing. Was one of the things he said in our recent Masters row before here at the era. There's a lot of banter in the boat but you've just described exactly the way it feels as an athlete and I've said to people before it doesn't matter if it's an ergo or if it's on the water. Meet the speed of the boat. And if it's an ergo fan spinning, all you've got to do is have hip speed, hand speed with the fan speed. Once you've felt that then all you're trying to do is accelerate. You don't have to accelerate even that much. Accelerate it just enough so that in that amount of time you've got to get back forward, you're able to then meet it with really good speed again. You do that on the water, you do that on the ergo, you generally get a pretty good acumen. It has a raw efficiency to it. And rowing behind some of like James, I was always fascinated by he always looked like he was doing no work. And yet he get a lot of power on in the first foot of the stroke. But it was super relaxed and highly what you've described are relaxation whenever we see fast crews they often look super relaxed. And it's counter intuitive. So let's do this 2023 world championships. Bring us into that space of what it's like sitting in your coxing seat with that particular crew and getting that result. So 2023 world championships. It was a well-wend experience. It was my first senior world champs. I think we had one other debut on in the eight that year. And we were definitely what you would describe as maybe a rag tag crew. It'd quite a diverse range of experiences. We had in the crew, girls such as Molly Goodman and Olympia Older Sea who'd been to two other Olympics before that. Had rode the eight internationally for a number of years as well as other boat classes, world champions, world best time holders, extremely experienced, extremely knowledgeable and had been around the training center for a very long time. And yeah, sort of knew what to expect going into that versus someone such as myself who had only raised a handful of times internationally. So it's a lot of enthusiasm. But yeah, definitely a very different level of experience than those girls. And I think a big part of our crew that year was being able to meet each other where we were at on that level of you had girls who'd been around for ages, extremely experienced versus those of us who were debutants and how we could come together to get the most out of ourselves. And I think for me, the 2023 World Championships that regatta was I think probably one of my favorite experiences in racing internationally because I felt through that regatta we built such momentum as a crew, momentum as a crew. That year we still had the traditional progression system of heat, repotage final. And for us, we ended up racing a repotage. And I think for us, that was the best thing that we could have had was having that opportunity to get together another race before we enter the final. And I remember the repotage is one of my favorite races, I think, ever internationally that we'd done. I remember in the heat started strong, but we faded in the back half of the race. And we were a crew that always had a strong start. I think it was probably our biggest strength. And if you look back at a lot of our races throughout that season, we're probably leading to the to the K marker if not a bit further, but then tended to fade in the back half. And I remember that the heat was a pretty standard run for us, if you will. And then heading into the repotage, I remember our coach John sort of saying to us like, this is going to be really integral making sure that we make the absolute most out of this on paper. We should progress from the repotage, but we want to use this as an opportunity to ensure that while we're getting the best lane that we can heading into the final Serbia, the course definitely depending on which lane you're in in the wind at the time was a pretty, pretty big factor in how you'd progress through the regatta. So we knew that that was going to be really integral, but also that that aides field that you was quite close. And we wanted to really make sure we were asserting that we were here for business and that we knew that the repotage could be really, really crucial moment in that regatta. So I remember started off the repotage. And I don't think at any point in the season had we ever started behind. I was, I didn't have much experience racing internationally, but I think every thousand meter, first thousand meters I had race that year. I'd probably been sitting in front of all the other coxers. So to my dismay when we started and maybe I think the 250, we were not in front in that repotage. I thought, oh, this is different. This is different. And hadn't ever really race from behind, but and still thinking about now makes me so excited. And I remember thinking to myself, going through the 500, okay, well, this is not good. The Canadians are in front of us, the British are in front of us. And those, I think that those three crews we knew were, were definitely all three of us could have the potential to be on the podium, but it was going to be a very close run and come the final and a few days time. And I remember saying to the girls, as we came, we had a big move in our race plan coming into the approximately 900 meter mark. And I remember saying, I want revenge for Lucerne. And I want it now. And what I mean by that was the Lucerne World Cup a few months prior, we got on road through by both of those crews. And I don't remember if we ended third or fourth, but yeah, I remember we, I think we'd led the race the whole way and we got road through in the last 250 odd meters. It was a pretty disappointing loss. And yeah, I remember that moment saying like we're not doing this again. Like we're not letting these two crews walk all over us. And I remember yeah, having been a crew that definitely had a strong first thousand, but maybe not strong second thousand. And just everyone in that moment, like I remember someone yelling at like yeah, like going and just the immediate buy in from the crew. And I think that was one thing of no matter we all had different experiences and all had had very different journeys to getting to being in that boat. It had been an up and down season. And you know, we had put in so much energy and emotion into this campaign, into this crew and making sure that we were going to qualify that boat. And we wanted a medal with that boat. We were the bottom ranked women's sweep crew that year. So we sort of been battling over the battle crew, if you will, for the whole season, trying to scrape together performances and progress throughout the season. And and that repotage then going through into that second thousand being in third or fourth place. And clawing it back in, it's a good replay to watch. We ended up coming first in the repotage by point. Oh, five of a second. Amazing. And just punching through the GB crew on the surge through the line. And then racing the final a few days later. I remember a coach sitting us down and saying, all right, like we need to make sure for us like we know we've got a we can't finish a race strong. You proof that in the rapid charge like for us, we knew that we needed to start start strong and put us if we wanted a chance at the middle, we need to put ourselves in the race early and then do our best to hold on and finish strong. And I remember, um, yeah, the sitting down the night before with the girls, we had a ritual where everyone would close their eyes and I'd pretty much call a race plan and calling it the night before and everyone is sort of sitting in a circle and looking each other and be like, yeah, like we know we can do this. We have the belief other people might not believe in us, but we do. And then yeah, the next day going out and having a really, really solid hit out and we ended up coming away with a third. A nice. Yeah, it was such a special experience. And I just remember being so incredibly grateful for all the girls, particularly I think being in my position, having had so little experience relative to them coming into the season that it felt as I each and every one of them had had such a strong impact on me individually. And really, I think, particularly those older girls and the crew almost I like to think had to morph me and help create me into being the cocks that they needed that year. And putting up with me when I made me didn't know what I was doing every rig out of course that we went to. I mean, never been to I lead never experience this. And yeah, it was just such a surreal experience. And there's a fantastic photo as we're walking back to the boat coming off the podium. And it's a photo of myself, Paige and Georgie Gleason walking back to the boat. And I remember the three of us that year had made the Australian team while having trained in Melbourne the year before. So none of us were in TC athletes. We'd had a bit of a yet bad luck season to get to the center. And I remember then as we walked off the podium, it's a photo of the three of us kind of all arms around each other. It was not only signifying that one we had we just want to meddle at worlds like we had done the thing we made it to there, but then also knowing that the three of us had made it onto an NTC scholarship for the following season. And I remember the elation of like we've done it like we won the medal. We've got the scholarship spot. It was so exciting and to share that with them having gone from being the three girls who were at trials together by ourselves to then making it to winning a medal at worlds was just yeah crazy surreal. Unbelievable. It was great to compete for Australia right? Yeah it's it's so special. And I don't think it will ever not give me goosebumps. The idea of that, I'm getting to put on the green and gold sooty and the coat of arms. It's, yeah, it's just indescribable. - Love it, absolutely love it. And I think just even the way you've described going through the sequence of races, it is that experience isn't it, it is to your problem solving always. Like whatever the result is, doesn't matter. Your problem solving, any problem solving on the water. And I think when I sort of watch and hear about coxons like yourself, there's a crew member when you're in coxous boats, you're doing that anyway, right? But not everyone has to be thinking this way, right? But you need someone in the boat to be thinking that way in coxous boats. When you've got a coxon on board, you've got a massive advantage to someone who can have that ability to see it steer it, motivate you and also keep problem solving on the way. And I think sometimes I've seen coxons who don't see their role as problem solving. And working out what's the next issue? I can fix for all what's the next issue I can fix for one. When you do that through a racing program, it's amazing how you just get better and better and better. Now the Olympic Games, what was that like? - The Olympics is an experience that I don't think anyone could ever describe in a way that truly does it justice to just how unique and special it is. And I think I remember sitting down at the start of 2024 with all the girls at the NTC who had been to the Olympics. And I remember putting it forward to the group of all the girls saying, I think it would be really beneficial if we provided the girls who had been to an Olympics, the platform and opportunity to provide some pieces of advice or some snippets to us just because it is so, we always hear it, it's so different to any other experience. But I think we've a lot to learn from them before we even get there. They're these sources of knowledge that's trying to utilize them. And I remember sitting in our quiet room and all of them going around and sharing their experiences and think and a lot of them sort of through every story, there was that reiteration of it's just something, it's like nothing else you'll ever experience. It's the racing is different, the atmosphere is different. The nothing will quite prepare you for it and you won't fully understand it until you're there. And I think as I was like, yeah, yeah, it'll be different. But you know, surely it can't be that different, 20th of the regatta, and I can't confirm it. It's very different. And yeah, it's such a unique experience, both in terms of how it's like to represent Australia is incredibly exciting and special and such a proud moment. But to do it and in Olympics is just another level and the whole experience of that and you know, receiving your, for us it was the quantest boarding passes and those kind of moments and those announcements are incredibly special. But then also the actual racing and it does, I've been to two world championships now, and in Olympics, it is definitely extremely different to a world champion chips and how racing unfolds and the sort of atmosphere around the boat park and how it feels to be there. And even I would argue for me, I found this year 2025 very interesting, having gone from the campaign in 2023, which was an Olympic qualification year and that has the degree of stress of, okay, it's an Olympic qualification year, make sure you qualify. And then going to an Olympics the year prior and then coming in this year and being year one of us, I could only sort of had that point, and at the end I didn't necessarily have the experience at the other end of the spectrum. And it is definitely a different feel of when you get to the Olympics, it's four years of work, four years building to that pinnacle. And then it is, when you get to that year of the Olympics, it's you know, that year is very integral, but also the knowledge of the three years prior and all the work that's gone into that. So yeah, it definitely is, I don't, I don't think I'll ever have the words to properly articulate it, but yeah, it is, it's unlike any other experience. Yeah, it's a big circus ride. Definitely, definitely. And we stayed in a French chateau for it. So I feel like I kind of had it to create craziness of the whole experience. It's surreal. Well, and really surreal. And I love hearing what you're describing, which is you're building on those experiences and you're drawing upon, you know, World Cup, World Championship, some Olympic games. That's such up really well for future success. If you'd have bring us into the space of what you're personally working on now in the Cox and Seed, what are the things you're working on to get better and better in the role that you play? I think something that I'm trying to work on at the moment we're currently in the domestic season. So I'm actually not going to Cox a whole lot at the moment, but I think focuses that I've had year on year is trying to really become more nuanced and refine my ability to have that situational awareness of what's happening during racing and making sure that I feel confident in being able to react to whatever is going on in racing and having a really clear understanding of what it is that makes my particular boat go fast and one of the girls in that particular boat are able to respond to as best as possible to get the most out of them in racing situations. I think it's almost a funny thing of when you get to an elite level and get sort of higher up in a racing context. You actually, the number of racing opportunities that you have reduces. So it is really integral that you're only going to get within any given season of very, very minute number of chances to actually practice the race craft, if you will, and that experience to be in an international race. So it's really important that you have practiced those skills and being able to get that extra inch out of your team mates and out of your crew in training. And I think that definitely takes a broad understanding of the rowing stroke, the rows in your boat, how to generate speed and making sure that you have and have built out that toolkit and your understanding of how to utilize those tools. So that come racing, you understand exactly when you need to shift in speed, how you're able able to do that. And I think, yeah, definitely experimenting with ways in training. We have acquired a diverse range of training, whether it's, you know, you're longer, 20K steady state paddles through to doing more race specific training, how it is you're able to get the most out of that broad range of context. And then using that sort of as an array of information and again, sort of like evidence of how you can find extra speed in the boat. But yeah, making sure that utilizing those experiences to make sure that when, even if you don't have many racing opportunities, you've practiced the skill of being able to get the most out of people in racing situations. Yeah, definitely. And I think that sort of comes up as you're just driving that for me is the race planning piece. Yeah, like how important for you. I'm not just in a cox and see, but do you think for any crew is to have at least a skeleton structure and working on the words, the statements, the focus, is how important is it? I think it's really integral. I think rowing is a very unique sport in that I set it before, but uniformity and teamwork is so important in what you're doing. And a boat fundamentally won't go fast if you're not all on the same page and all doing the same things. And I think when it comes to racing, that consistency of understanding of a race plan provides that structure to ensure that you are all on the same page. And I think it's something that's been really re-iterated to us coming out of the Paris games and into this new cycle of having that consistency across our team and ensuring that we're all on the same page when it comes to that technical understanding and a race plan understanding. And I think even now it's really exciting watching when we go through trialing processes and having crews working together that it's almost you're listening to conversations of different boats, but they all have the same race plan or that same skeleton because we understand the race and our race strategies in the same way. So that we are all on the same page. And I used to say it to the girls in the Paris cycle. I remember something that I posed to them. I think it was probably directly after we'd had our selections and we were named as the eight or the eight squad at least for Paris. So I remember sitting them down and saying that I think we had eight in my calculations, we would have eight full 2K races from the point that we were selected to when we would be racing the Olympic finals. So I sort of said, we have eight opportunities to learn and to refine our race craft and ensure we know what we're doing. And I want us to get to the point that by the time that we get to Paris, when we used to talk about the fact that the racetrack would be so, everyone would say that based on London that the racing would be so loud that I remember we used to listen to a recording that there was of, I think the crowd in London. It was loud. It was loud. And we used to do visualizations where we would play one of my recordings with the London audio in the background so the girls could visualize what it would be like to be in that final 500 meters. And we used to say there's a chance like they wouldn't hear me. But it was sort of, we should know our race plans. So back the front that if my Coxbox does go to the point that you can't hear what I'm saying. It shouldn't matter where. We're so in sync, so on the same page. And we've practiced it so many times that it shouldn't matter. We should be able to execute this and have that skeleton together that we know what we're doing. Yeah, brilliant insights there. And I think page described that sort of session of, you know, if the Coxbox or you can't be heard what's it like. I didn't know the specific details of using the London crowd noise with your audio recording. That's just preparation that is first class as far as I'm concerned. The way you go about doing that work is instrumental. So I'm fascinated. Let's jump forward to LA then using that same sort of mindset. What can we expect from you, from the crew you're in? And what are we looking forward to seeing from the women's program? I think it's extremely exciting building towards the LA games. And we definitely have got new coaches, new sort of talent pool of athletes. And I think it's already been extremely exciting to see the shift that we've made over the last 12 months the momentum that we're starting to be. build, I've really been enjoying them methodical and sort of evidence-based training that we're trying to achieve and really being and bringing a curiosity to what it is that we're doing and ensuring everything that we're doing that we're willing to ask questions of ourselves and of the program and all our elements of our training and trying to get that extra, just one percent is out of everything that we're doing and being willing to get, take risks and try and find those extra degrees and I think it's an interesting idea because everyone across the world is trying to do that and trying to find that extra percent to be faster and be better. So a lot of what we have at the forefront of our mind is our willingness to be the country that will do, what no other country will do is what will help get us there. I think something that I always have at the back of my head is, for Australia, the women's eight has never won a medal at the Olympic Games and that's the goal for LA and I think we also talked about this prior to Paris but you have to be willing to articulate that and without shame say that that's what you're going after and be brave enough to sort of put that forward and if you fall short that can be a hard pill to swallow but you need to be brave enough to own your goals and that that's what you want to do so I have no shame in saying that I want to be the first coxen of an Australian women's eight to win a medal and I want us to do that in LA in three years time and I think that in order to do that to do something we've never done we have to be willing to do things we've also never done so yeah I think it's been really exciting to see everyone at the training center's ability to embrace change and embrace new philosophies and I think that's something that we're going to be looking to do year on year and take our learnings from each year and take the good bits and then be willing to analyze and have that moment of self-reflection to understand where it is that we can find an extra 10% and extra little bit every year and keep building that momentum and not just sticking to them we've done it before so therefore we need to do it again and it's take the good and what you've done but also be willing to find where you can do more love that and I'm just going to give you a high five here we go high five for our audience we've just given each other a high five I feel like jumping out of my chair I'm going to tell you two brief things that you've really hit the mark on there because I think the defining fact for me with a crew like the awesome force and was the willingness to verbalize they wonder when gold not everyone's comfortable saying it and no Donaldson did something with me in 1994 in Tasmania after the nationals which was kept quizzing me on what I wanted out of the sport and eventually I said I wanted to be a gold medalist and like the awesome force it took me 35 plus minutes to say those words and I think if you're in an environment that sounds like this is what's being down if you're in an environment being asked to encourage to verbalize and commit to if you're full short it doesn't matter because part of the joy is actually expressing it to each other and looking around the group and smiling each other and eyeballing each other and going where to do this so I love what you've just said there Hayley because for me the difference with the awesome force and was we sat in a room at Mike McCoy's place and over a two or three hour period we workshoped all sorts of things around what would create success and defined success drive success and inhibit success and we've easily seen this moment where the guys all said I want to win gold I want to win gold I want to win gold I want to win gold and it was easy to assume but that importance of that conversation that meeting of the minds Mike McCoy talked about this was meeting of the minds was multiple occasions coming together to reaffirm and recommit to that that goal that aspiration so you having that aspiration the career of that aspiration is awesome because it's got real energy and I can sort of say it happening say I'm sorry I'm going high I love it with where things are at right now I love what you just said about the coaches and I love the journey you've been on so I'm going to do a few rapid fire questions for you short strike questions if you like what's greatest bit of coaching advice you've ever received? Oh great a spud of coaching advice I think for a coxen in particular I think action will always be better than inaction like own your action own and commit to that will always be better in doing it with certainty your crew will follow that and will yeah usually respond better to confidence in certainty than in action so love it I'm just hearing just say it with confidence whatever it is just say it with confidence make it clear love that if you were to give coxen's advice what would be the top three things that you think are most important for a coxen to do? I think become a student of the sport and knowledge is power I think in the coxen seats so that's always integral be curious be receptive actively looking for feedback I think is the most important part and that's where you will see the most improvement I think being curious to your coaches being curious to other coxes being curious to your teammates in particular don't don't neglect that being being a leader is based on action not like you need to walk the walk not talk the talk so I think that is on the water off the water if you want to be a leader you need to be committing actions that leaders will do and you you can't just ask people to follow you they have to be willing to and your actions will create people doing that yeah behaviors count right yeah 100% love that and on the water off the water I think that's a really interesting sort of thing is to always know we used to say this no Donaldson which was if things off the water are going well on the water is easier if things on the water going well often it impacts off the water it's amazing how that goes to worlds merge favorite waterway I think for training the NAPIN river like we are so incredibly lucky to have our training center there and a good good morning up in the narrow when you're around that 10k mark the water is perfectly flat where this good glassy you've got the sun rising I don't I personally think that you couldn't ask for more it's it's just incredible I hope everyone ever gets to experience a good morning on the NAPIN I think for racing Lucerne's pretty so I'm just such a cop out everyone loves that but Lucerne and I also think if you ever race it Henley you know that that's yeah completely exactly like a completely different ballpark it's very very different regardless but it's just is so exciting it's insane what's your favorite bit about what's in I get the waterway anything else I love this might be a bit of a silly answer but I love training in Lucerne I think it's being the little sort of pocket that it is and the waterway being so small I just I feel like some of the best training rows that I've ever had and just like the excitement building it's almost like because the waterway is smaller and you're in enclosed amongst all the crews and it's just you on that little pocket it just the atmosphere is so exciting and obviously it's incredibly beautiful but it's almost this thing of you're encased by such a beautiful location and incredible facilities but all that matters is that little pocket of water and getting to race there and I think being in the start line as well it being just the crews in that little narrow narrow section of river it's yeah pretty exciting yeah it's amazing isn't and anyone who says listen then apologizes for saying listen and then it was even Scott Rowan the very first episode we had a Scott Row yes listen listen yeah since then everyone goes everyone says listen I always remember the smell yeah the farm smell the sound of the cowbells and the distance and all that stuff and there was a feeling of walking down into the voting areas yeah it was just almost like this amphitheater that you're walking down through these houses and all of a sudden it opens up and is two thousand medical spectacletes definitely and it is one of those things like this this place is just so yeah picture-esque and beautiful at it it is like yeah like you said nabith amphitheater it's like the perfect setting for rowing that it just feels yeah it's just made for it definitely definitely um you're in the cox and seat do you have a go to a call is it a favorite call that you make in the boat consistently in races a favorite call one that I do like to use and have used for a number of years I like to say that you should stay internal in the first 500 meters of approximately 500 meters of a race but something that I have used for a number of years now if I happen to have a little look outside to sight just just to make sure where we are early on in the race if we happen to be out in front I will always say we're up we're moving and every time without fail that'll always get it yeah we're moving so yeah we're up we're moving I think if anyone's had me as a cox has probably heard me say that before and I just yeah love that yeah that was a bit of a setup because page-bar said that's her favorite call well I'm going to be okay good to see it's my sweetest name this podcast gold right here tell him good one page us yeah but I can like and when she described that call it was almost like that's the moment where she goes yes we're in a yeah and and we're in the race the physicality starts finally with been released and then you make the call and she's like yes that's it right and so even just watching you describe it is like you're almost hesitant going oh yeah I've got other calls yeah that's the one I'm releasing yeah no like I said I've used it for a number of years now I think it really ties back to that idea I was talking about earlier momentum and how it's like real that is to a race and I think as well a really important part of racing and of our sport I like I was saying this to one of my coaches a number of weeks ago but sort of that balance of belief and evidence and you need to have evidence that you can do it and that's where trainings really important and what you do there but also the belief that you can do it and I think a call like we're up we're moving sort of is that marriage of those two things of evidence of we are up and we are moving but like the belief of like we are up and we are moving we can do this and I think yeah when when you're getting those two things right in a race and and I get to have that look out and see that and like boom yep got the evidence got the belief like let's go let's do this it is it is a very exciting way to get going as you can go through that early stage for race so cool and I think just appreciating the use of words and and just digress for a second these two. When you're in a boat in a crew, anyone that will appreciate this doesn't matter what level you're at, sometimes there's not many words, right? But there's meaning behind those words as an association Duncan Frey said this in Beijing when he was quizzed which was, you know, what do legs mean? What are arms mean? What are these things mean? And thanks was like, we've debated these words a lot. And they got a lot of meaning. Will Lockwood use the term walking? And so usually around five and a meter, 600 meters thereabouts, all of a sudden. Walking, walking, walking. And I would sit there in the three of a sudden go, this is the greatest feeling ever. And we were a quick crew that was athletic and we had a desire to race and get ourselves in front. But in a way that was already slippery. And so when he announced this to your point, there was evidence that we're moving. We're not being hard, we're not being too physical. It's just loose athletic, just rain, really good rhythm. And all of a sudden, as soon as he said it, it said, right, we're on. Yeah, 100% of level walking call as well. That idea of words sometimes being so simplistic, but having such a broad meaning and that meaning is only sort of created through, I like to think of it as a campaign, like throughout that time that you're with a crew or with a training squad that that's when you build out those meanings so that when it gets deracing, you can say something as simplistic as walking and that for everyone in the boat that that singular term encapsulates so much and is a greater understanding. And it's a conversation I had with Kendall Brody who's been the cox of the men's out for a number of years through till the Paris Games. And I remember having that conversation with her and that one of her early pieces of advice to me stepping onto the national team was that, yeah, you want to get to that point that when you're enraicing that you can have those one or two words and it doesn't matter if they don't mean a thing to anybody else outside of your boat as long as those who are in the crew can hear that one word or can hear that one phrase and they know that it brings back that entire campaign of knowledge and that common understanding of what you mean by it and that's all that matters and that those words then have a broader meaning that you've worked on earlier than that's a really integral part of what you do in the cox is see. - Definitely. And then for all the cox's out there, if you're listening to this and wondering about the benefits you bring to a crew, clearly steering is important, managing the crew and all that stuff, but your words matter. And if you're in a coxist but you also know the person who's calling the race plan, I know with Lucy Steph and Rosie Popper and Jess Morrison described this, she took it on with such passion and creativity around what the race plan was, what the visualization or rehearsal was, it was so critical. Now if you're sitting in the cox and sitting this is the last one for us in terms of short stroke questions, do you have a favourite drill you go back to to help any crews that you're in at any time and why? - I think the immediate answer that comes to mind is quarter slide pauses, which is an extremely basic drill but I think it being, if you think of quarter slide it's almost that middle point of the stroke. I think it can be beneficial working on a multitude of different things, the front end and the back end. And I think it is such a basic drill but can assist so much. So I think for me, quarter slide pauses and being, I think they're a basic drill but if you provide a very, very clear point of reference for them and what it is that you're trying to work on with them, whether it is you're using this to help set us up for the front end or we're using this to check what we're doing through the back end or we're using it to check how positions from we're through the drive. As long as you're providing that very, very clear objective to the drill, then that's where it really gets the meaning and it gets its benefits I suppose. And I think it's something that yeah, I've definitely been taught of any drill you can do can be beneficial but it's the understanding of why are we doing this drill, how will we doing this drill and what are we looking to achieve with this drill that really brings it to life and brings its importance to the crew. So yeah, I think quarter slide pauses but doing them with a very, very clear intent and focus. - Love it, Hayley, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for joining us on Mercantile Radio. - Thank you very much for having me. - Mercantile Radio. - Okay team, we've loved doing the episode so far with our coaches and athletes that we've had a chance to interact with. Mercantile Radio, the Red and White Transitioners, I keep referring to it, is all about bringing those conversations to you, our audience. Send us a comment. Any guess you'd like us to have on, any questions you'd like us to ask, it's all really helpful feedback. I wanna thank 776BC for the support of Mercantile Radio. - Mercantile Radio. (door opens)