Inside YouTube's Most Popular Family (Jordan & Salish Matter Interview)

- I'm not gonna cry, okay. - Please not cry. - I made a agreement I wouldn't cry. - Can I walk out? - I've obviously gotten a lot of hate. I work with my daughter. So you're just set up for, oh, you're a bad guy. You're keeping on the money, you're exploiting her. That really hurts. - How much money does Salish keep? What's the percent? - I think it's a lot harder to ask my own dad for money. - It's the elephant in the room. It's really important to address this subject head on. - On famous birthdays, the search engine for Gen C's, you become more popular than Taylor Swift. - Ah, that's pretty crazy. - She filled MetLife Stadium. She got 87,000 people there. - That was a moment. - We got a lot of hate. It was deserved a little bit. All I wanted to do was go outside and say, like, I'm so sorry. - Do you feel disrespected? - I feel ignored. We have built one of the very top channels. When we go like this, it won't happen again. - I had a chance to be behind the scenes for one of your biggest shoots. - She just put me aside, she said that. Whatever's going on with you, you got to get it together. - Wow, put me in my place. - What are you guys doing to make sure you don't hate each other? - I saw TikToks like, why is she being so rude to her dad? I was like, oh my gosh. - She got that hit me. - Do you think you'll ever call it quits or? - I mean, God. - Thanks for coming on the show. And say like I have to say, thank you. I think this is the first ever long form podcast you've ever done. - Yeah, definitely. - Yeah, well, here's some stats that are just blowing my mind right now. So you guys are one of the top five YouTube channels in the entire US, across the platform. You're the top female channel in the US on YouTube. 87,000 people came to see you at the American Dreamal, which is far more than when Mr. Beast, debuted Beast Spurder. And say like, you've become more popular than Taylor Swift. Like on famous birthdays, which is the search engine for Gen Z and people rank who's most popular. It gets about 25 to 30 million views per month. The only people who have ever been ranked number one, this is a crazy list. I was looking up Justin Bieber, Charlie Demelio, Queen Elizabeth in 2022 when she passed. Taylor Swift, and now, Salish Matter. (laughing) - Yeah, that's pretty crazy. - But I wanna jump right into it because there's a lot of commentary about family channels, kid flimancers, and a lot of the successful creators and child actors like, it's not always the same story when they get older. - Yeah. - Yeah. And I'm curious like, what are you guys doing to make sure you don't hate each other? Where do you get older? You know, I'm just gonna ask it like 'cause this is a rocket ship that you're both on. And in many ways ahead of like what's happening in traditional media, I'm just wondering, what are the conversations that you guys have about that as you're kind of on this trajectory that nobody's ever seen before on YouTube? - But do you wanna take it? - And like, I don't, there's a lot. - Yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on this topic, to be honest. I talked to Brooklyn and Bailey about that, OG YouTubers that were grew up on camera. So I asked them how to do it right. And they gave me three pieces of advice. Number one, pay her well because she'll know someday if you didn't. Two, never forcer to do anything. And three, let her be a kid. And I've followed that advice. And so we've really established investments for her. They come from the revenue from the channel and she's very familiar with that as much as she wants to be. - Really? - You're doing okay. - Yeah. - You're doing okay. And she has all the decision making power about brand deals when she wants to do them content, whether or not she wants to do it. - What are those conversations like about like the money and the success? Like how do you guys like talk about that in addition to the content? - Well, first of all, it's, there's two different accounts. One when she's turned 18, that's the Cougan account. And then the second one when she turns 25 is the majority of the revenue from the channel. So that's 10 years away still, right? Kind of hard to, like she gets more excited Chipotle recent, tell her about the Chipotle and how excited you got. - Okay, well like Chipotle is like my favorite like food and they DM me and sent me like a card where I get 50 free meals, which is like crazy. I was really happy about that. - So you see how much she beams. But if I say okay, so this month, the revenue is this, you made this, it's like, great. Because it's so far away words that Chipotle cards, she could take it right now and use it. So the more immediate stuff is, what is the revenue being generated right now to go into her account right now? But the bigger picture for me is what are the assets and what are the investments going forward that she'll have when she gets older? - Yeah, and the Cougan account for people who don't know is something that was set up because traditional Hollywood, a lot of child actors were making money but then taking advantage of by their parents. So I believe it's 15%. - It's 15%. - But it's the way the Cougan account works is that if she, if she was an actor, she'd have a normal salary, right? And then of that salary, she would be guaranteed 15% through the Cougan account. That means the other 85% could go to the parents and they'd never give it. So it's not really the ideal situation. For us, it's a different thing. There isn't anything set up for YouTube at all influencers because 15% of what, the gross of the channel, then that of the channel or her percentage. So we're way more generous to her than California is forcing us to be. So the Cougan account is just one aspect of it that will enable her to have money when she's going to college but most of it is when she turns 25. - Yeah, and if you wanted to buy something right now, Salish, could you tap into that? Is that for later? How does that work? Can you buy anything you want right now? - Well, I can buy things to a certain extent. I feel like I'm pretty cautious in money because I don't want to waste all my money. But I get paid a certain amount per video and then I have that to just spend whenever I want to go get food with my friends or go shopping and all that. - Yeah, that's different from that amount that we agreed upon. And then this is, okay, this is Salish and a nutshell. - Yeah. - So she was making $100 per video from the beginning and we drew up a contract. So it was a hundred and then at some point I said, do you think you should get more money? And she's like, no, I said, okay, look at the channel and look at the direction the channel's going in. Don't you think since you're pretty much the star of the channel that you've earned an increase? No, she doesn't think so. But eventually we met at 150. She started feeling bad about that. So she's knocked it back down to a hundred. She's like, well, I'm having fun and you guys do most of the work during the week. So I don't really deserve 150. So she's given herself a pay reduction. (laughs) - I'm fine. - Because I feel bad. - She's generating the revenue. - Yes, so I'm getting money to argue it. - I'm getting money for when I'm older and like when I'm older I actually need that money to like live and just like do the things I want to do. But right now I don't need money. Like I would like it. I don't need it, you know? So I feel bad. I don't wanna make you pay me extra. - I do wanna talk more about the allowance thing or the payment per video. 'Cause my understanding from that is like knowing yourself worth, you know? And asking almost like if you're in a job for a raise or like, you know, knowing like, hey, like 'cause is that the reason you want her to ask for something is at the thinking behind it? - All of it is built into that, yeah. - But also I think it's a lot harder to ask my like own dad for money. Like I don't know, I've always hated it. Like even since I was like nine and I was on the channel yet and I wanted like a toy. Like I don't like asking for like money. Like I feel like I would be better with asking for money from an actual, like my actual boss, you know? Like it's awkward asking you like, hey, can I have a hundred dollars? - Again, you know, you've completely earned it in far beyond that. - I know but still. - Why not just give her like, hey, no questions asked, here's the money. And I assume like, have you ever seen the YouTube studio how much the videos make? - Yes. - Sailor's like a hundred dollars is like a, like such a tiny percent, no? - Yes, it is but I feel like like we, I only shoot one day a week and the entire team sets up for the videos, like the entire week. So I feel like I just feel bad for not like helping more. - But the videos can exist without you. - I know but yeah. - It sounds like me right now. So but why not? - Eventually gets paid before she does. I mean, it's not like she's, runs out of money completely. Can't go to Starbucks with her friends. I'm like, well, you didn't ask. I mean, eventually she's like, oh yeah, I didn't get paid. I'm like, okay, how much was that? We look back. She has an incentive clause within one out of 10. If it's in one out of 10, she gets a boost. So she, so that's the only time she cares about her ranking. She's like, yes, one out of 10. So she knows. - We have like three, one out of 10. - Yeah, we had a good run recently. - Yeah. - You got bangers. - So it sounds like that is like the weekly pay per video. And then there's those two accounts that you mentioned. And again, I ask a lot about this stuff 'cause nobody talks about this. - I'm down. - And I appreciate you guys talking about, 'cause I think there's standards to be set by people who are at the top. And just it's interesting to hear about how you guys do it. So you guys have two accounts for sailors. Like how much money does sailors keep? Like what's the percent? Like can you get, tell us more about those two accounts? - I can't say the exact percentage of the total, but I can say it's a good, it's a very healthy chunk. The way it works is 15% of her total goes to the Cougan account. That all goes to when she's 18. And then the 85% that's remaining plus 100% of brand deals goes to her when she's 25. And then when the brand deal comes, She has a choice about whether or not to do the brand deal or not and we discuss very specifically. This is the offer and here's how much it will probably be by the time you're 25 and then she'll say usually, okay, unless it's like, well, I don't want to play with dolls anymore and she's passed a lot of brand deals because there's been an incredible amount of stuff that she's turned down. She's turned down movies so that she doesn't have to miss school for a month. - Yeah. - She usually turns that everything to be honest. Is it hard when sales you turn down a huge deal? - I think I've turned down how many movies like not very many. Just like-- - Well, two, but you're 15 and you're not an actor. - Yes, that's a lot, but I've turned down to movies and I feel like those were kind of hard to turn down. But I do just want to stay like in school and I want to stay in my sports and like with my friends and I feel like that's not too hard of a decision, my decision to make for me, but it was kind of fun. - You know, one of the things that I think happens a lot, and again, it's my responsibility, my wife's responsibility, it's us to talk about this and help guide her. She's not an adult, right? But I think a lot of people what they do is when they are working with their kid, they see it as a moment and the moment's gonna be over and we gotta cash out before it's over. Oh, life is hard, like we gotta save as much money as we can because like if you're not popular anymore and I see it all the time. And so then the parents are just driving their kids to take every opportunity to make as much money as possible, which of course speeds up their demise really because then people just see them as like caching out. The way I see it with Salish is if she chooses to, given the platform she has, she has a long career head of her. There's no reason to rush and do stuff now that she doesn't want to do so that she can get extra money when maybe her living her life as a child and enjoying that is gonna be much more financially rewarding later because she'll have those experiences to draw on. So I don't feel like short, I think it's very short term thinking to think and you see this a lot with TikTok kids. A lot, right? They can't monetize TikTok so they do every brand deal, every collab under the sun. Before you know it, their TikToks, two thirds of them are brand deals. And then what made them popular is gone in exchange for what makes them wealthy. - Yeah, but that's so much harder done than said. Like I have this photo of you Jordan from, I think I don't know how long ago I don't want to date anyone, but I'm just wondering like it took you a while to start making money as a photographer, right? And like get starting, get your career. And I'm wondering like was it hard to get money when you were at this age, have you seen this photo Salish? - Like such a embarrassing photo. - Were you making a lot of money when you were younger and trying to make it as a creator? And a photographer in your early days? - No, I mean I was, in my early days, I was sleeping on friends' couches. What my story is I wanted to be a photographer, but there were a lot of them I had no experience doing it. I was a waiter at the time, trying to be an actor. My wife got accepted to vet school. She's my girlfriend at the time. So she went off to Canada and I was living alone in New York. I didn't have enough money to pay for the rent of our apartment alone. So I started sleeping on friends' couches and also wanted to be a photographer at that time. So I started taking, I took all the money I had to take a photography course, so I had no money left. So I was really kind of bumming around with friends sleeping on the couches, trying to build a photography career. So it was a long time before I had any sort of disposable income. - And that doesn't live with you as you see the dollar amounts that come in for your daughter? - Of course it does. I think we're all stuck at that point in our lives. Like, there's no doubt that I hear the opportunities. Oh my God, it's such a different world than most of us grew up in. But again, I really feel strongly about empowering her to make her own decisions and her having the confidence to do that. As you know, girls are not often raised to have the same confidence in their voice as boys do. Like, one thing that I think is really important is that the whole crew are their adults. And when, if Salah, she's uncomfortable with a moment in the video and she stops everything, she says, I don't wanna do that. Nobody argues or complains. Everybody listens to what she has to say. And then we move on and we do a different scene that she's more comfortable with. And I think her just having that weakly, moment of being reminded that her voice matters as much as everyone else's in the room is super important. - I pulled up this other video. Like, there's a lot out there about, you know, like, parent and kid influencers. Have you guys seen this? - Oh, this is the worst. Have you seen this? Oh, wow, watch this one. - What was it? What was it? Like, you're crying. Like, I'm crying. Like this. No, I'm not just using cry. - No, I know, but like this, for the video, like this, but one hand up, like this. No, go like this. I put your hand like this. Let them see you're off. - I don't know, but I'm actually crying. - Look at me, look at me, look at me. Look at me, look at me. - Okay. - I know, look at me, look at me. - That's crazy. - So the situation there is that they filmed the whole video about their dog dying or being sick or something. And he's legit crying. - Yeah. - First of all, we would never make that video anyway. So he's legit crying. And then. - They forgot to cut that out. - And the way they did thumbnails was video thumbnail. And she left it at the end of the video. They didn't even cut it out. And then now it's, they're done. But that has become a representation again, along with other stuff of family channels. And of what parents are willing to do. And if that's all you're exposed to, it makes perfect sense. Like if parents are out there forcing their kids to do stuff they don't want to do, keep them on the way for themselves. That's horrible. And you'll have to deal with that later when they grow up. Other side of it is, if she's a gymnast, and I'm encouraging her to go to a private every day. And I'm taking her an hour early to go to the meet. And I'm really, after school every day, I'm forced to do her repetitions. People will say, you're teaching her healthy habits, you're teaching her how to be successful, all that stuff. But if I'm putting her on YouTube, I'm exploiting her. - 'Cause the sport of gymnastics or like, that trope of a mom or dad doing that is more known. - Right, or exactly, or how many conversations were there about the stranger things kids in season one being exploited by their parents, probably none, or being exploited by Netflix, none. Because they're actors and we're used to that. The only difference here is, is that I'm a dad on camera with my daughter and it's our channel. And so therefore, it must be different. But the way I see it is the same thing. We're not a YouTube channel, we're a production company. Like when we make videos that compete with Netflix viewers, so when we think about our content, we think about how do we get a family to sit down on a couch for 30 minutes and watch something like they would on Netflix, but I want them to watch us instead. So it's the same thing, but it's different in the perception because it's a family channel. - Have you guys had conversations with other family channels or kid influencers that set a new standard? 'Cause there's a documentary on Netflix about Piper Raquel and the dark side of kid influencers and do you have strong opinions about other family channels and what's gone in industry versus what you guys are doing? So I feel it's really important to address this subject head on rather than pretending it doesn't exist. It's the elephant in the room. And I've noticed that throughout my YouTube career, I got, for the most part, I got a lot more respect as a YouTuber when I was a photographer than I am now. Even though when I was a photographer, we would average maybe two million views. Now we average 50. And I think that there's several reasons why, one is, oh, you're exploiting your kid, right, for your own monetary gain. And so therefore we don't wanna celebrate that. Number two, it's gotta be easy. She's funny and cute. So with that, right, like anybody could, right? So they don't understand that we are a production company that are aware of every aspect of the algorithm and retention and clicks all of that six days a week and that she works her butt off all day and that the majority of what I'm doing financially is to funnel it towards her when she's older. Those questions are never asked because just the assumption is that there's gonna be some sort of negative aspect to it. So the public perception of it is pretty negative. - Yeah. - And it's fueled by the few people who have done it wrong. - What are things that you guys are doing to counteract that? - So she's driven every part of everything. Whatever it is that makes her happiest is the decision we make. - Even if that comes out of financial loss? - Of course, yeah. I mean, it's my kid, you know, like I've gotta, I wanna spend my rest of my life with her and having a close connection with her. If I was to make any choice that would in any way jeopardize that or harm her memory of her childhood, there's no money that can pay for that. So the financial thing has never questioned out. I can say that because I had the great fortune of already being successful before I bought her on the channel. So it wasn't like, there was never a situation I hope in which she felt that it was her burden to carry the finances of the family because I think that that's what happens with kid influencers a lot is they don't have much and then suddenly the kid becomes famous and there's all this money coming in and they feel that responsibility. I've gotta keep generating content because I'm not sure. "My family needs me," and then the family's like, "Wow, we really need this." Like, take this brand, we really need this, right? I've never had, I've been fortunate, I've never have to make that decision, but I'm pretty certain, even if I did, I would never prioritize finances over her. - Yeah, I'm curious about what the channel looked like before Salish, you joined and became a big part of it, and almost skyrocketed. I think now, like, videos are getting 30 to 40 million views each. What do the finances look like before Salish got involved? - I mean, we were probably having a few million, and then the big ones would get 10 or 20. Now we average 40 to 50 million per video, so that it's a significant change. - Yeah. - Before she joined, the revenue was, it was a very, I don't like to talk about specific numbers. She's a kid, I don't want to broadcast anything, right? But it was a significant yearly salary per month, is what was happening before Salish. - Like, for anybody else, do you have any job? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Not for any, for like, what would be considered a very good salary, you know? That was a monthly revenue pre-salish. Then what happened was she joined the views really skyrocketed, and also the length of the videos went up, television, viewership went up, and as a result, the revenue is, there's better revenue, and she's seeing a big portion of that. - Salish, do you have the YouTube studio app on your phone? - No, I do. - No. (laughs) - Yeah, wait, I think a fun game would be, I'm gonna open YouTube studio for you and see if you have any clue what that is. - Well, I think, my dad talks about all of the YouTube studio stuff with me and the money and stuff, and it's crazy, I don't have it off the top of my head. - Yeah, I think one of the things that really is appealing about Salish, is that, say anything I'm wrong about, she really doesn't focus on views or popularity. As a matter of fact, I would say, if you put a hundred kids her age in a room, she would be the one that wants to be famous the least. Would you agree? - Yeah. - Yes, really? And the views don't change your mind about that. A lot of people may say that then they get the views that you've gotten. - Yeah, I mean, I think that the views are incredible that we get, it's insane, and I'm so grateful for everybody that watches the videos, and I'm happy that I've made a little bit of an impact on people, but I don't really think about the views, I never really look how many views we have. - We've posted seven of them Saturday, every week for years, and she'll go, wait, did you post something this week? Or what do we post? - Yes, because I see a video on TikTok, and I'm like, wait, I didn't know that video is coming out this week. - Yeah, she's the God that we even post. It's so, and I think that it's such a great thing, because when she's on camera, she's not trying to impress anybody. Just whatever, man, whatever, like me, don't like me, I'm here because I like the crew, because I have fun doing this, and if you guys watch it, that's awesome if you don't. Okay, great, I would, you know, so would that be accurate way to write? - Yeah, yeah. - So as a result, there's a real authenticity to saylish, that I think is very rare on anybody on YouTube, not just kids, because everybody's trying, including me, I think I try on camera a lot harder than she does, and I think she's just letting the camera come to her and doing her thing, and we're all working hard, and I think there's a real, it's really cool to watch that. - Yeah, I want to talk about you on set, 'cause I had a chance to be behind the scenes for one of your biggest shoots of the year, and I have a clip here that I wanted to share. 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Just go to the link below, or scan the QR code to check it out, and thank you again to Thinkific for sponsoring this video, and now back to it. And I was amazed at how vocal you were, say I should wanna play this clip. - Did you do your hair this morning? It looks so bad. - Forgot about this. - We're about to film in two minutes. - Dad, I'm not trying to be rude. It just doesn't look like you did it. Like it's all over the place. Can I fix it please? - No, please, 'cause there's lots of hair for you. - Don't you fix it. - Okay, I'm not gonna do anything to that. - I don't wanna do this. - Can you hold my phone please? - I don't, no, 'cause you're on your seat. - I'm not gonna do anything. I know how to do hair. - I hate it, Rowan. No! Oh my God, no. - No, you're all the hairspray. - Oh, what's up? - I don't have more. - That looks a lot better. - Either it looks just the exact same, or she messed it up in a way. I've gotta go fix it. Pause, we need 15 minutes. I gotta fix my hair now. Oh, no, that looks better. Okay, we're good. - So, who has more control on a set? - Well, definitely me. - It's not even, I don't even know if I have any control. - Because I think, sometimes my dad doesn't understand that some things he sometimes wants me to say, it's just like, who would say that, dad? Like what, what's an example? - So, I think two years ago, in every single one of my videos, I would hit my dad, I would call him all of it, and I would just be, it seemed like I was being very rude to him, and as I got a little bit older, I just kind of stopped, I just don't hit him anymore, I don't really call him like all of you, you know? And I don't know, I feel like I just kind of told him, dad, that's so weird, like why would I be hitting you at 14 years old? - But why were you hitting him initially, just 'cause that was something you were doing when you were younger? - Yeah, I think that I did that a lot when I was 11, 10, just kind of playing around with my dad, and then I got older, and I saw a take talk, 'cause like why is she being so rude to her dad? Why is she hitting him? And I was like, oh my gosh, I never interpreted it in that way. - And so there is an impact, right? Obviously, she's gonna see that stuff, and that's gonna have an impact on how she wants to behave, but also she was evolving to a place where, she doesn't smack me as much anymore now, like off camera, like maybe I'll get a pinch instead, or a look, or a eye roll or something, 'cause she's getting older. But when she joined the channel, and she was that age, there was a lot of beating me up, so everybody who's got a daughter at that age knows that that's kind of how they communicate. And so, but when we would put it in the video, the thing that I felt really bad about was the old thing, because-- - Yes, every time, like I used to call my dad old as like a joke, and I really didn't mean it in a rude way. It would just be a joke, and I feel like a lot of like daughters do that with their dads, and then people would come up to him and be like, you're so old, or they would come up to me and they'd be like, your dad is so old. And I would feel so bad, because I just, I felt very bad, but like people were just calling my dad old, and they weren't doing it because they actually thought he was old probably, they were kind of just doing it. - 'Cause you had done it. - 'Cause yeah, 'cause that-- - She had said it was okay. So then the joke was, oh, you're old, and so she said she wanted to stop saying that, but the thing that I felt really bad about, that oftentimes in those scenes, I'd be like, oh, this would be funny if you called me old now. So I'd almost queued it up for her, and then it came out of a play, she used to tease me about that. - Yeah. - But, you know, we made it a much bigger thing on the channel, and then she took the hit, even though it was our choice to leave it in the edit, and it was almost, my choice to encourage her to do it. And then the narrative became, she's not grateful, he had a hard childhood. - Yeah. - You know, things changed, Dar did a video about me. There was about much childhood, Dar man. And childhood wasn't ideal, it was pretty rough. - Yours, yeah. - Yeah. - So as a result, there was a lot of sympathy for me, which was really sweet, 'cause nobody knew anything about my childhood and they're like, oh, I see now, that's why he wants to give her the childhood he never had, and then they were playing back the old stuff of her call me old beating me up, and they're like, see, she's ungrateful, and he went through so much hardship to give her everything, and now she doesn't care. And it's just such an unfair narrative that it really upset me. So fortunately, we've kind of gotten through that part now. - Yeah. - Still obviously, as you saw on set, a lot of teasing, but there's no way to take that out, because that's our entire relationship. So if we take that out, it's very authentic. - Yeah, it's interesting to see your content and like, how it's aging up as you age up, Salish. I pulled some stats, and you had a challenge video that you guys put out, and that one got eight million views, a ton, and it was eight out of 10. So it was like-- - Was that of the first week? - Yeah, and then you guys put out a dating video, they got 23 million views, and it was a two out of 10. It was your second best performing video. - Yeah. - Do you feel pressure from the YouTube algorithm? Do you feel a pressure to monetize your personal life? - Yeah. - Like, success of these videos? I mean, it's hard not to either consciously or subconsciously feel swayed by seeing those things. I'm wondering, how do you guys think about that? Seeing these numbers? - Well, I definitely know that people care more about who she dating, or who she talking to, or whatever, than like me, like hiding in a pool. But I don't really care at all. Like, I love doing videos with my friends. I love doing it with Kato, Needle all paints, and tsunami, like all of them. And I actually asked my dad, like, hey, can we do a video with Needle? Hey, can we do a video with Kato? Because, yeah, I feel like-- I just prefer to do videos with my friends 'cause I can talk to them more instead of just being one set, you know? - I'm curious, like, any other thoughts on it? Like, because you also set the ideas, right, Jordan? You bring them to Salish or hot hot. - Well, it depends on this scenario. - Yeah. - So, there's also a big distinction between these two videos. The video with Kato is a much more personal video. - Yeah. - And the video with the Stokes was a challenge-based romp. - Yeah. - Who cares, who wins, right? It's just like, we're having fun. - Yeah. - And it's silly. - So, there's your personal connection to the content. In comparison to this boy and whether or not they're dating, going to data, whatever. That said, it's a slippery slope. And it's the kind of thing that comes with the evolution. So when she was younger, it's much easier. It's about braces. Now, she's 15, she's 16. Of course, she's gonna be dating, and she's gonna be interested in that. Not, of course, I'm sorry, for her, she's interested. And so, that's gonna be happening. So then, the question is, do we share that as part of the content? Because that is relatable to our audience. Or do we not? And the way I fall on that, if she's comfortable with it, is if we are modeling a healthy relationship, then I think it's okay. If it's gamified, I cheated on my boyfriend while this is, you know, or is he cheating or do I, who do I love, or whatever, like, if you gamified in a way that's not personal, and I think that's when you might be pushing the boundaries a bit. So in this video, if you watch the ending, it was like, the whole context of that video is-- The dating video. Yeah. The dating video. The whole context is, Kato's a really sweet kid. And he had, they had gone out privately. On an official date. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then he texted me for real privately and said, can I take her out again? Which I thought very respectful. And I said, well, that's her decision, I might. So she says, yeah, sure. And he wrote down five-- I said, what do you guys want to do? And he wrote down five things that he would want to do with her. And then I said to say, there's a fun idea here if you want to do it, which is you guys can go on all five of these dates that he wanted to do on camera, and then decide at the end if you want to go on another off-camera date. And that's what they decided to do. So it was kind of a fun version of dates, but it showed their connection. And then at the end, they decided they did want to go on another date. And then that's when I said on camera, we're not going to show that, nor are we really going to touch this anymore. So we got to the point where we showed one version of it. And then, in my opinion, I don't think we should go back to that topic. Because that's when it starts becoming super personal. Unless they both want to do that, in which case we will. Did you feel pressure to say yes? No. To that idea? No, I don't feel pressure from my dad to say yes. Because we're very close, and I don't really care if I say no. I know that he won't take it to heart about his idea. So I don't really care. Do you feel pressure from the audience? Because I would feel pressure when I was your age, from the kids around me in high school. Do you worry about your relationship, and the things about your personal life, changing when you have an experience like this on camera, does any of that factor in it? Because I know it would for me if I was your age. Yeah. I feel like I've definitely started to care more about what people think I guess, but I still don't really care. I feel like when we film, it's just like I'm talking to a camera. I don't think I'm like talking to millions of people that are watching the videos. So I don't really care what people think. I want people to be happy. Like I don't want them to be mad at me ever. But if I see like a hate comment, like, it's okay, I don't really care that much. Because I don't know, I just don't care, and I feel like I'm pretty confident in the videos we make. Well, I saw your response video to some of the comments about when you guys shut down the American dream all. Take me through that, because that felt like a huge inflection point for you guys. Yes. Maybe you set the scene. You're launching sincerely yours, your product in Sephora, you're doing it at the American dream all. Yeah. And tell me about some of the response and how you handled that, because there's a ton of commentary on TikTok afterwards. Yeah. Definitely. Well, first we, we like started thinking about sincerely yours like two years ago, then we started formulating it like about a year and a half ago and really going through the process and everything. And I was definitely nervous that it wasn't going to sell or that nobody would care about it. So that definitely did bring me like a concern, but then we were flying to the American dream all to go to the launch event. And I was nervous. No one would show up. And we get there. And the night before we were just doing a rundown of everything, making sure everything was good. And there was already like 20 people waiting outside. And it was probably like 9 p.m. 10 p.m. And I was like, whoa, like people might actually be here. And then I went to bed and I woke up and I accidentally woke up late. I woke up with 10 minutes until we had to leave. And I was supposed to wake up two hours early. But I woke up and my dad's calling me and he's like, there's a lot of people here. So then I go to the mall and I got taken through the back way there. And I was like, wow, like the entire mall is filled up. That's crazy. And just to put this aside, this is like over 80,000 people. Yes. And not even all the people were like in the spot that my dad was because there was another entrance where people were because there was too many. And I was like, that's insane. Then I go out and I was on stage for like five minutes. I was telling everybody to like move back. And then I got taken off stage by the police officers. And my dad was like, say, where are you going? Because we still had 20 more minutes. And then they ordered 100 state troopers to come to the mall because there was too many people there. And I was like, whoa, like this actually might be dangerous for the people. And I was very concerned and I just wanted to say hi to everybody and I felt so bad. And I was already like, I was in the back room and I was already seeing so many tick talks about how angry people were. And all I wanted to do was go outside and say like, I'm so sorry. Like thank you for coming. I have to go. But then the police officer said that they would like find us for trespassing if we didn't leave in five minutes or arrest us. Yeah. The cops would arrest you guys. Yes, they would arrest us. Definitely. They would try and say, how did anybody, they were going to arrest us for trespassing. And we had five minutes to leave. But everybody was there to see you guys. Yes. But what their concern was that there would be a, this is, I can't even believe I'm saying that's a stampede. We couldn't go anywhere because everybody was spread out throughout the mall. They would all hear that she was there and they would all come running back and they couldn't guarantee everybody safety in that situation. Wow. And the meet and greet, they allowed her to do it. But basically pushed her in there without saying hi to anyone along the way. Yeah. I only got to like, I got like 10 seconds with each person, if they took longer, they would be like, no, you got to go. You got to go. And I thought so and kind of leave that because yeah, because the line had gotten very much longer than the meet and greet line for people waiting. So it was just overall, it was an, it was an insane thing. I mean, my understanding is that other than the side men, one of the stadium events, this is the biggest creator event that's ever happened. That's my understanding. I mean, I doubt it. But you know, in terms of the new, the new world of creators, it's like 87,000 people. Yeah. And we had never done an event before. We'd never done a meet and greet outside of a VidCon thing. So we legitimately had no idea how many people would be there. We heard stories about people flying from all over the world. One story they got. Okay. So this, we went back next day. So we stayed overnight, posted that we would be back at them all. Anybody that came that missed seeing us, please come and say hi. So we were there and met a bunch of people. One woman told me her story, single mom, paying her way through college, two kids drove down from Canada. All her kids wanted to do was to like meet Salish and get a hoodie. And they were smushed in the middle of crowds and it was pushing and shoving and a lot of parents lost their minds. I mean, if you start going through TikToks, you'll hear like parents were pushing kids out of the way to get their kid in front of the line. And these, these two girls had just cried all night because they had, she had spent all her savings to bring them there. And so when I met her, of course, you know, we got her address to send her hoodies, did photos with the kids. I offered to reimburse her for her travel and she's absolutely, I mean, I'm still emailing but I'm like, please accept the money. She's like, I don't want the money. The fact that they were able to meet her and get the hoodies all that mattered. But that's two people. You know, on the next day. Yeah. The next day. Yeah. 85,000 people might have left unhappy. And there was, it was just not the best preparation from, you know, people who we had entrusted to make sure it went well and also no way to anticipate that many people. Yeah. How did you deal with that, Salish? I mean, did those negative comments get to you? Because I pulled one up here that came from an adult, you know, and I'm just curious like, like, Jordan, do you shield her from negative comments like this? Like, say, if you try to turn off TikTok and YouTube, like, um, like this was one that was like, oh my god. Hey guys, so I just saw this video. Here's the thing, you don't know me, you don't know my dad and you never asked us like what the truth is so can you please stop making assumptions about us? Because it is really hurtful to say that much bad stuff about my dad when my dad would never do that. Well, I mean, God. I think that we got a lot of hate. Honestly, I think that it was deserved a little bit because we couldn't meet up to the standards that we set. That really made me sad that I couldn't meet everybody because I was kind of all I wanted to do. Like, I was telling my dad when they were planning the event, like, I want to meet the people like, can we make sure we have like, I can meet them? And that was definitely a sad, like, I was really sad that we couldn't meet them. And I also think that people didn't fully understand the story. Like, they probably just thought we left because we just wanted to. But then we made a video about like everything and what happened. And then I think everybody kind of understood more. But yeah, it was, it was just not very, it was rough. Yeah. I've, I've obviously gotten a lot of hate, right? I mean, like I work with my daughter. So you're just set up for oh, you're a bad guy. You work with your kid, you take keeping on the money, you're exploiting her, that happens all the time. A lot of comments about my age, about the fact I'm cringe, like all that. None of them matters. But reading the, seeing the TikToks that these kids were upset, that like, that really hurts because like I value that relationship with them more than anything on the channel other than my relationship with her. So the fact that we let them down in a way felt like we let her down. Like I felt emotionally as if I had let her down. And that was really rough. So that, so that part I felt, I felt horrible about. If you watch the video, see we both felt terrible the whole time. So if we ever do it again, it'll be different. Is there a part of you as a parent who doesn't want, say I have to see these comments, like, I mean, these are hard to internalize, like even as an adult. Yeah. Like does any part of you want to be like, let's shut this whole YouTube channel down. Let's end this like this, this is like getting too out of hand. I would shut the channel down in a second if I thought it was the better choice for her. But I think and tell me what your reaction would be. If we did that, I think it would be really upsetting. Yeah. Definitely. It's interesting here about like there's comments about you, Salish, but there's all the comments about you, Jordan that you mentioned. Can I read one of them? Sure. But there's a bunch. Do you watch the videos that are made about you? The commentary videos? I don't want to. There's a lot that's set out there. I think any YouTuber that gets popular. Yeah. And I thought it was interesting. You mentioned like these comments don't get to you or like they, you know, the ones that you see. I it would be hard for me to stomach some of this stuff. This is a quote from a YouTube video about you where they said, Jordan Madder might not be the first to monetize his children for content, but he represents a worrying trend. One that treats childhood as a commodity and where privacy is sacrificed for the sake of YouTube money. What do you say to people who make those comments? I see their point. Like if you're looking at it from a distance, you don't know any of the specifics. Yeah. Sure. There is a tradeoff as a matter of fact. I would say anybody that sits here and works with their kid and says, it's great. You don't really, I don't know that. I'm only trying to do everything I can to make sure that we give it the best chance of it having been a positive impact on her life. But you don't know for sure if her age right now and as she's evolving into a young woman and her self-perception and what she values, if all of that is under a microscope every day and whatever you do, she goes out with somebody and ends up on TikTok, I don't necessarily think that that's great. So there is an aspect of it that is always like we have to manage that and has a lot to do with who she is. She specifically somehow is a very rare person that is able to absorb this at her age. And I'm not saying like, it's true. What she's saying is true. She just doesn't care. And she doesn't care about being famous, right? I mean, like we don't even use that word. She's not really famous. Like Taylor Swift is famous. She is very recognizable to a certain demographic of people. And those people feel very invested in her life. And we're very fortunate that they care. But at the same time, those people don't know the situation so that they have no idea what our relationship is. But there is an aspect of it that you have to be very aware of when you're raising kids in a public environment. Yeah. I mean, yeah, productions are chaotic environment alone with a father and daughter dynamic later on. You have the father-daughter dynamic. You have the fact that we're trying to make a 30-minute video one day. And we're doing it every week. So the creative process is always rushed. So we film on Sunday, Saturday, midnight. We're still working through the creative as you saw. We show up. We're making stuff up. One thing goes wrong. This build is taking too long. It's dominoing. Everything. We're like hurry up, hurry up. There's no chance. We're going to finish this video. Hold on to the trucks. Hold on to the builds. Hold on to everything. Leave it somewhere close here. I mean, I don't really know what else to do. We just should not stop filming. Either we're filming her doing stuff in there the whole time or we're doing, you know, or we're going to the mall or something because you're just not going to have minutes of her. I don't think. Given the fact that we got so delayed with the build. Big smile, Taylor. Ready, guys? Please go. There you go. Today was a super stressful video. Yeah, it was crazy today. But I kept you waiting for that because I'm a good dad. Yeah. So I didn't want you to feel that pressure. Oh, thank you. Oh, okay. So I guess we'll end it on that note. Yeah. That was an unusually frustrating video. But I was still frustrated at times. And I try to separate that out. If I'm frustrated by something, try to talk respectfully to the person and not involve Salish because I'm absolutely never frustrated with her. Her energy and her commitment is unbelievable. And I think she often lifts everybody's up. I remember one time, one time, I'm telling all these stories about myself that don't sound good. But it's the truth and everybody goes through it. I was having a, do you remember the thing with me and Sandy? Do you want to tell it? I don't remember the exact words and you probably remember better. I was, I was my production partner, Sandy Chase. He and I started the channel together. We have been doing this the whole time way before Salish. And we can definitely have a very open relationship with each other. Also, it's because you guys are very close. We're very close. We have a short hand on things. And if I'm snippy, it's almost always to him. I'm sorry, Sandy. But there was one time I stepped over the line. And I said something we're in the room. And you know, she was older now. But I said, something out of line, like, no, I'm telling you this needs to happen now. It's like something like that, which is way out of line. And Salish, who before would have shut down when she was younger or got upset or something because she would, she just pulled me off. Besides, she said, that whatever's going with you, going on with you, you got to get it together. So why don't you get out of here and figure it out and then come back when you're ready to film. Wow. She like put me in my place. This was a couple of years ago, right? This is your about 13 then. So she had transitioned in that year from really internalizing it. And thinking it's about her, to recognizing, no, this is your thing and your thing. That's very inappropriate way to discuss, to talk about this. So go get it together. And so I came back. I apologize to him. I was super upset with myself. And we moved on. And after that, my dad hasn't really done anything like that. That was on a very rare occasion. Like, that doesn't happen every day. And most of the time, my dad's very nice because I learned, so my man is mainly from my dad and mom. And mom is the nicest human in life. She would never speak to anybody like that. So again, Sandy, I'm sorry. Yeah. What other creative differences are, what have been some of the biggest disagreements you guys have had? Because I think naturally between a father and daughter that happens, you guys working together must put that into overdrive. We haven't had too many big disagreements. And I think part of that is because Rowan, he's the creative director now. And I've known him since I was born. And he kind of helps me through the video so that it's not my dad directing me and helping me through that. And I think that that's made a huge difference in the creative process because now I have somebody that's like my brother helping me instead of my dad. Yeah. I thought that was really interesting when I was behind the scenes with you guys. Like, you went off to shoot your bit in your segment. It was almost this competition between you two. And then you went with Rowan, who was almost like your director. Yeah. And the person who you were making your content with. So you guys were actually for a lot of the shoot in separate places. Yeah. And that part of that is a YouTube calculation. We have one day to film. Yeah. So often if we're filming one thing together, we get half the content. So a lot of what we do is come up with dual storyline concepts where I'm doing one thing while she's doing another. It's fun storytelling, but it also makes the videos longer, which is prioritized by YouTube. Yeah. And the retention gets higher because you're cutting back and forth between two different scenes versus playing one long scene. So I just a little bit of YouTube stuff there. But in terms of the Rowan thing, that's been critical. Yeah. And I've just turned more and more responsibility for her storyline over to him. And also Dow, the production manager, is she's going back and forth between us, But she's awesome! She's the primary female on set, so she is often with say and they're very tight too. So she has these two people, plus Colin, who's filming. She usually has this trifect of young adults who are much closer to their age, much more interested in the stuff she's interested in, you know, like they're all dating, for example. I can't really relate to all that stuff as Salish is becoming a young woman, that connection between her and them is super important. Do you guys feel pressure to shoot more days? Because condensing a YouTube video into one day, that's a lot, and even when I was on set, I saw how much went into that one day to film that video. Like, do you ever feel pressure to be like, "Hey, Salish, we need more time on camera with you?" No, he never asks me really to have more time, like another day to film or anything. I think I can, for the most part, understand like, "Oh, we need another day to film this because we have not gone everything." So sometimes we do like a little bit more, but not really. He never asks me to do another day because he understands that I just want to live my life and be in normal teenager. It's a deal, it's an agreement we made. So I take it really seriously, and that's where sometimes if I do get frustrated, it's usually towards the last third of the day because things are slow and the thing that gets me is always her. She's got to get to sleep, she's got homework, we need to wrap this up, and if we don't wrap it up quickly, then she's going to get ahead, she's going to get tired, she's not going to get dinner, she's not going to get enough sleep, and so I start worrying about her. If I see her, there's also why it's not bad for me to be over there, because sometimes. Because a lot of the. No, go ahead. A lot of the times, like, my dad's not with us, and I might be sitting out for like five minutes, taking a break, getting water, and my dad comes over and he's like, why is she not doing anything? Like, I want her to be able to go home, why is she just sitting? And that's like exactly when you come, like, whenever he comes, it will be like, I'm just sitting down, and I don't sit down for most of the day. No, you don't. It's not so much sitting down at all. It's just like I'm waiting until we can start filming. I think the bigger thing is the expression I see. If I come in and you guys are sitting there and you're going, but I have no, I'll never have a problem with that. Like, sit there for an hour. It's totally great, because you're having a good time. But if you look tired, or if you look like you have a headache, or you tell me that you're hungry or something, it triggers me, because I feel so protective of her time and her space, and I don't want her to ever feel like YouTube is a job or anything she doesn't want to do, that then is when I go, okay, we got to get this done right now. And then that tone, then it spirals, because then she sees them frustrated and it kicks up something from when she was younger. And then all of a sudden, she's like, "Dad, it's fine." And then there's a little bit of tension, and it's all because I saw that she wasn't happy, and I feel bad as if I'm making her do something that doesn't make her happy, and I overreact to that moment. So that's more and more now, especially towards the end when she might be getting tired. I say, "Roll and please wrap this up as soon as possible, because we need to go." But I'm going to be over here so there's no extra tension about that. And then you could also continue shooting your storyline. It's almost the way you set up the format of the episodes, give you more time if Salish can't shoot as much. Right. If we do a video, for example, where we're doing two different locations or something, I might be able to go back to that location another time, but usually we wrap together so I can bring it home. Got it. Another moment from that shoot that has just stuck in my heart, like, can I play this? Yeah. Can you not start crying if you watch this? I'm not going to cry watching myself cry. Actually. This promise. Actually, this promise. I'm not kidding. I couldn't believe just how just, yeah, like emotional this moment was on set and seeing you start crying, Jordan, and talking about what you did. I'm just wondering if you could play the clip and maybe elaborate on some of that. Every week I'm making a memory with my daughter, and the fact is, as I know, there's more memories in the past than they're in the future. With this content. Okay. Wow. Wow. Sorry. That's beautiful, Jordan. No, it's just like, it's so special. She can't see me do this because it's like too emotional for her, but what I get to do is I get to be with her every week, creating something that resonates with people, and it's like we get to bond, and there's so many memories. Like, if you look back, it started when she was 10 or 8 or something. It's like the memories there, I will look back and forever. My only fear is that she looked later and said that she didn't enjoy that. That's why everything is built to make sure that she does. Yeah. Okay, I'm crying. Don't look. No, it's good. You weren't supposed to be here. Why are you crying? Just because I started. Okay, the truth is, I started talking about what it would be like when we do our last video. But when he's crying, he said he started talking about what it's going to be like on our last video. I got busted. I cannot believe she just caught me. I did not. It's see her. I saw your eyes. I was like, "What's he looking at? What's he looking at?" And then suddenly say, "There's nothing more cringe for a teen than seeing their parent cry about them." Seeing your dad get emotional doesn't get you choked up? No. That's so weird. I don't like when he cries. That is getting you choked up, like. I think it's going to be sad when we film our last video, but I won't cry thinking about it. I mean, I think he's just being a little weird. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. You're crying. You're crying. You're crying. You're crying. You're crying. No, that thing about. The thing about you regretting it is that's really always been my driving thing. Mm-hmm. I thought her reaction was funny. You were not having it. Yes, because. Well, what teen would be? Yeah. That's right. I mean, you look, let's give Salish an insane amount of credit because every week I get on camera and I do stuff that is embarrassingly cringed, even if I'm trying to be the coolest person possible. She's a 15-year-old who every week does a video with her dad and her dad is not chill. It's like, "I'm not a cool chill guy. I'm over the top guy." That's embarrassing. The fact that she's willing to put that out there to so many people every week says that we do have a bond and also says she's confident enough in herself to allow that person to exist in her hemisphere and be proud of him. So stuff like that, however, she will not tolerate this easily. So that kind of thing never happens in our videos. Salish, do you ever just want to spend time with your dad not making YouTube videos? Yeah, of course. What does that look like? It's like seeing that, you know, I have a daughter and I think about when she gets older, she's going to have so many other commitments, you know? Whatever extra curricula she does, her friends, and you only have so many years with them at home. Like, yeah, how do you think about this built-in day where you make YouTube videos together? Do you wish you guys were doing something off camera? Do you like that it exists? Like, what's your take on that? I think, like, we don't only hang out when we film Sunday's, it definitely has brought us a lot closer because, like, when we lived in New York, and he wasn't filming with me, like, I didn't really get to see him too much because he was always working, which wasn't a bad thing. I've gone so close to him now, so I'm so lucky that we can do YouTube videos every Sunday. And I think that, like, I don't have to build in time to hang out with him. It kind of just happens inevitably. Like, he just, like, takes me into our gear, like, we just do random things. And even though I'm, like, pretty busy, and I kind of always have something going on, I always like allow my dad into that and let him come with me for whatever. Is there anything that's off limits, light in terms of filming and. I think that a couple of my relationships I've kept, it's kind of private, like, my school friends or, like, my sports friends, like, I don't put them on the internet because I think that just kind of make us uncomfortable and, yeah. How do you think about that? Like, as sales, you grow older, like, there's more things that are private. Yeah. And there's pressure with that algorithm on YouTube to make it public, and a lot of people, you know? Yeah, tell me how about your wrestle with them. As long as she is enjoying making the videos, I don't care what we're making them about. She can set any parameter she wants, and I'll work within them. You could say, "I want to do all white room videos, and I just want you to direct, or I want you to be over there watching," and I would be totally happy with that. As long as we get to spend the time together, and she's having fun, you know, like, we, a few months ago, I might have been longer than the minute, but, you know, we went for a drive to Fresno. It was a five-hour drive, right? And she's teen girl, never picked up her phone. You know, we just yapped for five straight hours. It was awesome. I like to have the kind of relationship where we can get in a car, and we're like, "Bah, there was a time recently where, I don't know if you remember this, these people that watch our videos saw us at Target, and they were behind us, and we were pushing the car, and they came up, and they said, "Oh my God, you're just like you are in the videos." And to me, that is the biggest compliment, because we don't really put on anything. I think we probably, I add maybe 20% energy. We might add like 30 or 40% more energy, but it's the same relationship. It's just amplified a bit, because it's entertainment, but it's the same core of who we are. - Yeah, do you guys have an exit plan? Like, you know, say like, do you think you'll ever call it quits or what happens if one day you're like, Dad, I don't want to make YouTube videos anymore? - I don't think I'm really ever going to unless like I go to like, like I really, I think I want to go to college and I don't know how I'm gonna still be making YouTube videos then I really obviously want to and that's a huge part of like what I'm thinking about, like what I've been thinking about recently because I love filming so much but I don't think I would ever randomly be like, Hey, like I don't want to do YouTube videos anymore because, yeah, I don't know. - But it might get harder. I mean, if you go to college somewhere like away from where you live, like logistically, you know. - Well, I mean, I'm gonna be in the dorm next door. And that's obvious. No, one of, we have talked about an exit strategy and this is something that I would say I've only recently become comfortable saying that I think she's in this for a bit. As opposed to, I've always felt up until this point that it's at any point she might say, you know, I want to try other things. But we do have an exit strategy and I think part of the exit strategy is the fact that I also think we can't just stop suddenly because of the audience. That would be, I mean, when you hear the reception at the mall, they're invested and we really, really we respect that and we definitely feel grateful for it. So if we were to do that, we'd almost have to let them ease out of it as much as we'd need to ease out of it. So we've talked about like a long and hey, in January, at the end of this year, we're gonna maybe stop doing YouTube for this reason. And then so then they know, okay, it's like a farewell tour. - A farewell tour on the tour. - If you decide to call it quits. - Exactly. - And there's always a, you know, it's gonna call quits at some point. That's what I was saying. I don't think there's gonna be another five years of it because she's gonna be going to college. Maybe it's up to her in a few years. So at some point, it's either the challenge is just gonna start doing this and then every creator has to make that decision. Do we just keep going and going even though nobody's interested anymore? And I think if we're having fun, why not? Or she might decide she doesn't want to do it, in which case we have to strategize about that. - Have you come close to thinking of like? - No. - I think that if I, I don't know, I've also been thinking about college a lot recently because I mean next year I'm like gonna have to start like really thinking about like what college I wanna go to and all of that stuff. And up until this point, I've really wanted to go to college and I still really do, but I've been thinking about maybe like just a little bit because I love filming so much that I don't want it to just end, like just because I have to go to college and yeah. - And I think that when she said, first of all, that makes me so happy you have no idea. But when she says that, I think that's primarily because of the environment of the shoot. And we are also very aware that we are in an incredible moment. Talk about it all the time, like we have built somehow, one of the very top channels on the platform. And this doesn't happen. And it probably when we go like this it won't happen again. So we should really enjoy where we're at right now. Ironically, we're never seen as one of the top channels. Every, you're invited to every single YouTube event. How often do you see me there? It's not because I'm turning them down, it's because I'm not invited, never invited. And the reason I'm not invited is because I'm working with my daughter. And so it's about the perception of that and what that represents because of all the negativity surrounding it. Even though what we're doing is very algorithm YouTube-driven, it's very, you know, friendly, advertiser-friendly content, it's very popular. But it doesn't fit in the demo of how YouTube represents itself. So other YouTubers don't really think of us as, so I think that event was the first time-- - The Sephora. - Yeah, the first time where people like, wait, that doubled Mr. Beast, who are you? Like who is she? The articles are like, I don't even know who this person is. - Yeah. - And she got, she filled MetLife Stadium. She got 87,000 people there and I have no clue who she is. And so it didn't just help our brand. It also just brought focus and attention to not just YouTubers but specifically to the family genre. And the deep connection that people feel to family creators. - Do you feel disrespected by other YouTubers because you guys are a family channel? - I feel disrespected, I feel ignored. And I don't even have a problem with it. I get it, I get it, you know, I do. But-- - Why, why? Just because I think people look at say and they're like, yeah, of course, it's funny, you know, and it's only kids that are watching. Oh yeah, yeah, they're all under 10. So that's easy, but me, I do serious content that 15-year-old are watching, right? It's not true, none of it's true. I mean, adults watch our content, teens watch our content, like everybody watches it. It's just the perception and we don't pay attention to perception. So into that, we pay attention to the audience. And so we build the audience, but we haven't built the relationship with the creator community in the way that they would give back. - What has been the craziest thing that's happened since that American dream all 87,000 people, like massive crowd, like has there been people reaching out that you would have never expected? Have there been deals like, that was a moment. - Yeah. - That was a moment, like what's been the most exciting thing that has happened other than your product selling out in Sephora, which was, you know, was the big point of the event. But any other like deals are in by like, oh my god, can't believe that person's reaching out. - I mean, definitely a lot of them. I don't know, can I say any like, there have been so many things that have come up recently, which I think-- - I think it's a tough moment to say it, right? Because there's a lot of opportunities that are coming in for her and for the channel and to know which ones we're gonna go with then, but a lot of stuff. I'll say that we had some meetings scheduled for Netflix and Disney and others in terms of shows. I can't say what, but that. And they were already scheduled, but after the event, the people that attended those meetings were the decision makers. And decisions were made very quickly in our favor. But within minutes after the meetings, offers were made. And that doesn't happen. And I think a lot of it has to do with the perception that it's hard to argue anymore that she and we have made an impact on a lot of people and now people are trying to monetize that. And we are not interested in that, or at least she isn't. So there's a lot of huge offers that you would have never imagined would be a reality and that we're not gonna do it. - Well, has there been anything you've been chasing to get that has now come in your lap because of this American dream all, 87,000 people crowd? - We are singing career. - You're singing career? - I hear that. No, I don't have a singing career. - Do you wanna see you guys cue one of her? - No, sorry. - Cue one of her songs out, okay. - What, labels are reaching out to turn you into? - No. - Yeah, it is? - Actually yes. - But do you sing Salish? - No, I don't. - But that doesn't, they don't care. - Because do you have a massive audience? - Yes. - So they're like, let us-- - She's already got an offer with a major recording label to just put out some songs there. They're like, we'll make it sound good and then we can teach her out a sing for a tour. She's like, and she said, quote, "I can't think of anything I wanna do less than that." So where you have there is a label saying, "Hey, we wanna turn you into the next Sabrina Carpenter," or whatever, and her going, "Nah." Yep, that's-- - Is any of that appealing though? Like I met a lot of kids who are age talk about Sabrina Carpenter being the next big pop star, like just to know that that could be a reality that you live in. - Yeah, I think that that's like so cool that they want me to do that, and I've never had any background with singing, but I think just singing is something that I really would not wanna do or a person. So yeah. - It isn't, it isn't interesting commentary on the industry that it's like, is audience more important than talent? - I don't think there's a question. - Yeah, like not to come, like as you said to yourself, like singing is not one of your main talents, but that because of your massive audience, they're willing to make an exception. - Yeah. - Yeah. The way I see all this is our foundation and our priority is making videos. I don't see where anything could get better than that. I mean, I love that she has opportunities. If she chooses to pursue them, she wants to be an actor or singer, whatever. I think the door will be open for a while. But we get to make our own rules. We get more views than most shows. We have an audience built in and we get to do it the way we want to do it with no pressure. There isn't a lot that anybody can offer us other than that. As long as we stay true to that and still make videos that the audience enjoys and that touches them, we try to make videos that resonate, that have a message, that parents can appreciate what we're saying so that it's not just pure popcorn entertainment. And what I see for her is in a way, somewhat similar. to what my son is doing. So my son Hudson has worked on our channel, also created his own YouTube channel that was really successful. And then he has now branched out to create a company called Next Wave Media, which is a consulting company. And it consults brands and celebrities on being YouTubers. I think that's brilliant. Like he, rather than chasing them, the Jimmy route of like, I want to be a bigger and bigger creator because he saw there's a shelf life and he saw there's no exit to that. If you're not in the video, you're not making money and you're not, you know, and so he's taking that opportunity and he's building into a business. And I think that Salish is also doing that with sincerely yours and will have other opportunities to do it as well. Where she has a platform and then she can say, okay, I've started a company and I have a platform. I can do this, this or this now. And she can kind of call the shots and he can call the shots. That's what's great about YouTube and social media now is once you find success, you have endless opportunities to create your own thing. Yeah. Yeah. I did want to talk about Hudson, like your brother, because he is like so smart at YouTube, like he is very sharp. And I wanted to ask, like, Salish, is there any jealousy between you and your brother Hudson with you being the star of the channel and him having a separate channel? No, not really, because Hudson has created so many incredible things that I couldn't create. And I've created some things that he doesn't want to create. And I think that we do very different things, even though we're in the same kind of space, like he just created a business about YouTube. But I don't know if I could create that cool of a business. So I think we both definitely have different things that we're good at. Yeah, your content is totally different. Yeah, it's definitely. Was there a moment, Jordan, where you ever consider making Hudson a bigger part of the channel? Because there was a few videos that I pulled up here of when Hudson was on your channel. And they actually performed really well. And I'm wondering, like, how did, like, and Salish was in videos, like, how did you, like, end up with Salish being part of your channel versus Hudson having a separate channel, despite his videos doing really well on your channel? Well, the question of whether or not I considered it almost suggests like a calculation that there wasn't. So it wasn't like I said, oh, I need to pivot away from photography and in which one of my kids am I going to make into the channel, you know, face of the channel? That wasn't it. It was that at the time that she and I started working together, Hudson was not interested in YouTube. He was interested in politics. Wow. Yeah, he was, if you look back, Hudson matter politics. Yeah. So many videos he was wearing his suit. He was doing, he was doing politics videos. He was a political comter. He was a volunteer, a political volunteer when he was Salish's age and canvassing. He ran a whole group. He was the, in charge of, it was Michael Bloomberg in New York. And he was in charge of the whole Bloomberg campaign for a certain region. So that was his interest. So when she and I were working together, he had no interest in being in the YouTube in the channel at all. And you'll see he's not really in it at that time. Since that, he made his own channel, but he wants to do his own thing. And I think part of his, the way he sees all of this is, okay, you guys have done your thing. I don't want you dad to help me. I want to know that I did this on my own. And he's able to do it on his own in a way that when he is able to reach the success he wants, he will know he did that without any help from me. Not, he will not accept it. He will not accept any financing. He will not accept any advice or any connections or anything. So he really feels strong about doing it on his own. I respect that. If Salish is a star of the YouTube channel, why is the channel called Jordan Matter? Great question. People have asked me that a lot. What do you think? Well, I mean, I think that, like, I have made like the joke like, oh, it's my YouTube channel, but it obviously is my dad's, even as much as I work like on Sundays, I think that my dad should always get a lot of credit because he is the one doing so much of the work. So, I mean, I think that's a big part of why it's still called Jordan Matter. And it's just more recognizable for people like it's been Jordan Matter for like 10 years. So why would I change it to Salish Matter? Why would my dad change it? It just doesn't make sense. Has there been discussion to change it to Jordan and Salish Matter? That way you kind of maintain existing brand and what the brand has become? I think it's a funny bit to keep going on with because people get so worked up about it. Like, it's her channel. And we kind of fuel that because I think there's a lot of fun stuff where what we argue about, I also argue with the audience about. So I'm like, it's not her channel. It's got my name on it. And then everybody's like, no, it's her channel. And so then there's a, it sparks this team Jordan versus team Salish thing, which I think the audience absolutely loves. And we love it too because we're very competitive as individuals and with each other. So then when we are also putting out that, it's her channel. It's my channel. It's just another aspect of competition. Yeah. I saw that first hand on set when we were shooting together. The competitive part? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You guys were going at it. I was like, wait, this is real. Yeah. I also want to break it down because you guys are getting 75 million views in a week, 300 million views in a month. And I think there's a ton of things that non-family or kid channels can learn from you guys about YouTube. I'm wondering, like, if you could break down some of your past videos, we analyze, you did different formats, like any YouTube strategy tips that you guys have that you talk about. Because I think you've mastered that in a way that, you know, a lot of people don't give you credit for it. One of the things that I think we do really well and most channels don't do this is the variety of content we make. So usually if you think of your favorite YouTuber, you're going to immediately know the video they're going to post next week. Like you just know it. You don't know the exact title, but you know what it's going to look like. And we avoid that as much as possible. So for us, one time we'll be a vlog about what the American Dream Mall was like. And then the next week, it's a game of clue, which is completely opposite. And then there's a vlog about, you know, her morning routine. And then she builds a secret room. And there's all these different, we're incorporating all of it. And I think so. So my feeling is each video should be a surprise to the audience. And don't worry about the fact that it may or may not get views. Remember one time, say the first suggestion for a video she ever made. What were you 10 for morning, and she said, we should do a morning routine. I said, oh, say that's so 2017. Like nobody does anymore. I said, okay, we'll do it because you suggested and you want to do it. And so for sure, but I just don't want you to think it's going to do well. And it ended up being a one out of 10 and it got 30 million views. And with that talk, what then that opened up the floodgates, all kinds of night routine, day in the life video content that we wouldn't have done if we hadn't rolled the dice because that wasn't anything like what we were doing before that. And sometimes you got to take a chance and try something different because it might let us bark. What other tips or like when it comes to clipping or your videos, like I was on set for the production is just very methodical. Like anything that say, if you've learned or drawn, you've learned from your experience, that you think other creators could apply to their videos. Clipping, we found that the audience likes to clip our content a lot. So now we are aware that there might be certain kinds of content that like to clip more. So we try to incorporate clipable moments into every video so that they have some fun stuff to clip. And so Salish had a huge presence on TikTok having no TikTok account. Oh, you don't have a TikTok account, whatsoever. No, I do, but I did. It was recent. She kept getting banned TikTok. So she just couldn't do TikTok. It was like, okay, that's fine. But if you looked up Salish on TikTok, there were literally thousands of accounts, but none of them were her. Like imposter accounts. If you were a fan of counts or whatever, but you know, like people that were celebrating the content is the way we see it. And they were reposting it. And then not just Salish accounts, but just kind of anybody was. So, so we realized, for example, in some of these videos, the trapped video here, trapped in a tiny room, boys and girls trapped in a tiny room, went insanely viral on TikTok due to a lie detector test at the end. And our number one traffic source was search. Above browse, above suggested it was search. And it was a massive one out of 10. Usually, if you have search traffic, it means nobody can find the video. And it's a, it's a dud. It was because so much traffic was coming from TikTok due to all the clips. Right. So finding what your audience likes and then creating clipable content for them to repurpose without you having to do it is really great. Was there an example of the Sephora shoot that I went behind the scenes of that you guys were like, Oh, this is a moment that we're going to make clip. We haven't posted. We're as of the filming. We haven't posted that yet. Oh, you don't show the final edits to Salish. She will look at them. Why? I don't like watching myself. You know what? Would you watch the final episode once on YouTube? No. No. I see it on TikTok. And sometimes I'm like, wait, why did you put that in? Because sometimes I say something like that I wouldn't expect them to keep in and then they keep it in my go. What's the classic example of that? Do you remember that with Nadal? Do you want to quit right now because you're too scared to take them leave her? Yeah, but it wouldn't be a long enough video. So no. And I wouldn't expect them to keep that in. It's full on like, it needs to be 30 minutes for the algorithm. Dad, I know you only have like a 20 minute video. So we got to shoot this scene and we left it in. Wow. Yeah. And then another, you know, another thing is authenticity is huge, right? So the off. Here's a great example of authenticity. We have this thing called matter cup. It's a competition, it's a trophy. And I had a feeling she would think it was cringed, so I didn't tell her we were going to do it. And what happened was I had it behind my back, and I said this week, we're going to play for the matter cup, and I revealed it, and she had this reaction to like, no. Wait, what? No, that is so cringey. And we left that in. And the thing is, if you think about YouTube and you think of a family, think about kids, what you'd expect is for the kids, you go, yeah, matter cup, I'm going to win, yeah. But that is so inauthentic to her, or to her age group. But if she had done that, people would be like, oh, really, you care about that in Europe, teen? So instead we left in the authentic reaction of her going, that's cringey. Now it's become a big thing. Everybody comes up to me and they're like, matter cup is cringey, and I'm team Salish, and then they run away. And it has made her more authentic just because that's who she is, and we've kept that part of her in. Yeah, you know, it's a big trophy, and the big price. Yeah, but what is like, really? But a 15-year-old care, it's like the kind of thing, the dad cares about that the kid doesn't, so we just made it super authentic. And then the last thing I say, because we haven't talked to him a lot about actual, I mean, we are not reliant on her being charming to get views. We're reliant on understanding the audience's expectations and the algorithm, and that's what leads to the retention. So what we found is that the way I would say it is this, and I've talked to a bunch of careers about this. Here's my formula. 80% of the success of a video is the packaging. It's the concept, right? It is the thumbnail title, 80%, because if they don't click it, they're not going to watch it. 20% is the actual execution. Of that 20%, 80% of that is the retention device. So really, the way I say it often is, by the time we show up on set, we've already made, the video is already successful or not based on what we chose to film. The rest of it is just window dressing. But if you're going to focus on something, focus on giving people a reason why they need to watch to the end of the first 30 seconds, and then make sure you get the length out so you get the AVD, the APV above 50% but the AVD at least, I'd say at least 10 minutes, probably more like 15 minutes. You've been the king of pivots in many ways. Before Salish came on the channel, you're doing the 10 minute challenges before then. You're doing head shots. Like what advice you have for YouTubers who are a bit older, maybe stuck in their jobs or stuck in a right content-wise to find their thing in the way that you have so much later in life. So you call me old. That's not my view. He was basically trying to say, how are you so old and you're still doing this? You must have pivoted like a thousand times, right? It's a camera. John said at least this three times. If I had blank at your age, I'll be really happy. Oh, yeah, your age. If I can sit up at your age, you're here. Oh, my God. You'll have it. No, no, honestly, it's so. So I would say in terms of all the old people out there, the plus one, I'm like, I think I'm almost 30. So like the, you know, the 30 plus. Sorry, sorry. I don't know why I didn't play that reaction. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, yeah, you got your camera. Anyway, the idea of pivoting is I learned from Hudson. Tell you a brief story when he was 10 and I was just starting YouTube and he gave me this advice. He said, if you're lucky enough to get successful on YouTube, it's because you found a lane. But if you leave that lane, people are going to stop watching because that's not why they're there. But if you stay in the lane too long, they're going to get bored and they stop watching. So what you have to do is expand the lane while staying in it. It's like, first of all, pretty great advice from a 10-year-old. So he always knew YouTube. And then second of all, just great advice. So what we did is the lane was photography and then eventually it was photographing salish. And then it was also it's like 10-year challenges, then photographing celebrities, then photographing salish, then no photographing. So it was pivoting, but not like, I didn't go to cooking. I stayed within the lane and then it just kind of went this way slowly and before you know. Same highway. Same highway, different lane. And then how did you ultimately like, do you feel like you have to choose a lane that's close enough to what you did before before you go from photography challenges to father-daughter content? Yes, if you can, it's not always easy. But yeah, if you can. And then we continue to pivot. Like, she is 15. You're going to be 16. That's a lot different content from when it's 10. But one thing has stayed that consists in two things. One is that it's always been about relationships more than about challenges, even though it's a challenge-based channel. And number two, collaborations. Still, and most of the collaborations, it's not like they, it's not that they're not on the thumbnails. But even though you don't see her in hardly anybody, but her in any of these, most all of them had a collaborator. So we like to always work with different people, it keeps it fresh, but also you get into their algorithm. So if you're getting, if you're in a rut, start trying to work with different people because you get different influences, you get to understand their process, and you all share each other's algorithm. I'm curious, like, just a wrap. What's been the biggest thing you guys have learned from each other? I know as a dad now, like I'm learning more and more from my daughter, and she's only two. Like, I'm wondering, Jordan, what's something you've learned from Salish, and Salish, what's something you've learned from Jordan? I mean, okay, so I've learned a lot from Salish. So what I would say, the first thing came to mind is not necessarily the biggest thing I've learned, but the first thing I came to mind, odds coming from an adult, learning this from a kid, but don't be so concerned about what other people think is at the core of, I think, why it's so enjoyable to work with her and to watch her on camera on screen. What do I use Salish? I think I've learned so much from my dad, but I think the top thing is hard work and dedication, because I mean, we haven't really missed a video in a while, and it's like he has so much drive every week, even like if he hasn't thought of a video idea, even if it's two days before, he still works hard so that we can film on Sunday. And why? Like, you guys are set, like, why? Like, why work at this? Like, why, you know, you guys could be spending time and making those memories that are so important off camera, like, why work so hard on this? It's not, it's not work. I mean, there's, you work your ass off from your own office. I'm working my about off. Sunday is a vacation day. Sunday I get to hang out with her in film. So if we didn't film on Sundays, there could be a lot of Sundays where she makes plans with her friends or something. I think the fact that we film actually keeps us closer together, it's not the opposite. It's not like we would dedicate the whole Sunday and go for a walk and talk about our feelings on the beach. We would be doing our own thing maybe. So I first of all, I see Sundays as critical because it's another memory I get to build. And like I said earlier, I only have so many of them. So that's the number one thing that drives me is I just realize this is a very unique moment and very special and I want to take advantage of it every week. I'll give you guys a final word. Like, where do things go from here? Like, any big swings for the future? Like, I know you guys have done such a great job of pivoting before you've had to with your content. I'm just curious like, what in the next like few years hold for Salish and Jordan Matter? I'd say for me as weird as this sounds, I don't know. You would think that we were before it's super calculated. Like, you know, you meet Jimmy and he's like, oh, we're going to do this. And then three years this and we got five years of this and a 10 year of this. And for me, I've always built it into I want her to have an exit ramp anytime she wants it. So it's very hard to build long-term plans if I'm also saying, I don't want you to feel pressure to have to do this if you don't enjoy it. So we're really going to push hard on sincerely yours, I think. And that feels really exciting. The reception has been incredible. I think it's a real give back to our community and it could be super popular products. So that's probably where we're going to focus and other than that, just making the best video we can every week. I'd say it with any thoughts from you. I think the same thing as him. I also, yeah, I mean the same thing as him. She just wants to end by saying how grateful she is, how much she loves me and she wants to give me a big hug right now to end it. Okay. The hugging thing is like something that just goes away to certain point parents out there just so you know what happens. Here we go. One more. Okay. Okay. Okay. We'll just do the hug. Yeah. Oh, whoa. Wait. Get this on camera. She almost did a hug. Did you let the hand happily hug? I get a half way hug. Yeah, you won't happen for you for a while, but I saw oh my gosh. I saw an Instagram of all of these clips of you giving me a hug when you were so young and like just like falling asleep my arms and everything and like how do they have those clips? Well, not clips like photos that I've posted wherever. You know, so and then it doesn't happen anymore, but but it gets better. It actually gets better. I would not trade eight-year-old or six-year-old Salish for 15-year-old Salish. 15-year-old Salish is my favorite Salish. Ninety-owned Hudson is my favorite Hudson. It just gets better every year. I mean, as a parent, that's amazing to hear. I just appreciate you guys for being so open and honest and Salish, you making this one of your first podcast like talking about all this stuff. I know it's not easy, but I'm so grateful and Jordan, thanks for coming on the show again and being such a just a mentor and support and so many things I've been trying to do. It's means a lot. You're welcome. It's weird being your mentor as I'm younger than you, but I guess that you know, that happens. I've achieved a lot at a young age. Imagine where I'm going to go when I'm 30 and 40. It's going crazy. If you haven't already go to whiteyhackpack.com to get our free YouTube hack pack with all our best tools, tips, and templates to grow on YouTube today from our intro and thumbnail templates to our 100 viral ideas for any niche. We constantly update it as we interview more creators so you get the latest and great is for free. All right, thanks for watching.