Inside Titan Wealth: James Kaberry & Andrew Fearon on Consolidation, Private Equity and the Future of Financial Advice

There's a lot of talk in financial planning at the moment about consolidation and private equity, but not enough honest conversations. In this episode, I want to just slow this down. I'm joined by James Cabry and Andrew Firon, the co-founders of Titan Wealth, a founder led by FAA business of around 1,400 people. They manage roughly 44 billion pounds and are expanding internationally. We start with their journey into the profession, and while they chose to build a scale rather than stay small, we talk about leadership as a business grows, what really changes at size and the emotional reality of selling a firm. The identity shift, the calm down, and why integration is about people, not just process. We tackle private equity head on, look at what scale actually enables and why international advice across borders is becoming essential. And we finish on one simple concept. One Titan. What does that mean in practice? So let's get to it. Andrew James, thank you so much for joining me today on the financial planner Life Podcast. For those that don't know, you have had a phenomenal journey so far at Titan Wealth, four years, circa 44 billion under management, 1,400 staff in the business, doesn't sound like things are slowing down. And to top it off, you're now guests on the financial planner Life Podcast. How do you feel about that? Very excited. Thank you, Sam. For those that don't know either of you, okay? Can you just test a little bit about your background and how you ended up with Titan together? James, we can kick off first. No, really, my entrance. I thought he was going to start. So our opening gambit was Crikey. I've been in financial planning and stop-breaking since I was 16 years of age. I had a financial planning business called Pantheon from age 30 through till Crikey, sort of 41-42 and I eventually sold it out to Ascot Lloyd back in 2019. I was a bit of a loss. I was doing other things as well and I approached Andrew who was an introduction to actually help find some funding to go again. And Andrew came to me. We had a chat and he said, "Oh, I've actually just created a business and called it IWP," which ties in the story very neatly. And he said, "You might know something about financial planning." I said, "Well, a little bit, but not much." And he said, "Well, will you be a Ned on the board?" And I said, "Okay, great. Let's go for it. Let's have a chat." And I was there at the opening of IWP. About a year later, obviously, COVID was getting close. And we sat down and we thought, "Okay, fine. Andrew wasn't directly involved. Are you on the board?" You were on the board. But on the main board. And we suddenly thought, "Well, there's an opportunity actually within DFMs." So, discretionary fund managers and we thought, "Well, nobody has done a buy and build in the DFMs space." And there is an opportunity here which there's a lot of consolidators. There are 30 or 5, maybe even more consolidators. So we thought, "Why don't we look at the DFMs space?" Which at all intents and purposes are the ones who are looking after all the money. And there were about, I think, there are a thousand in the UK. DFMs, yet there are 15,000 plus IFA's. So, we went about that and we started the thought process. And Andrew had a lot of connections with different people from the creation of IWP. And that's where we went. It was fairly easy to start raising money. Having an agreement on what we were trying to do in terms of what we wanted to do and where we wanted to build it out to. And then it continued. I mean, we get on like a house on fire, I think, in reality, ying in yang is always quoted at us, which one he is. But anyway, he looks like a yang to me. But anyway, anyway, it is the difference. I don't know. But I think the interesting thing is that our skill sets overlap, probably to the tune of 50 to 75%. And then we've got peripheral stuff. I think the critical bit and where we've gone from day one is trust. When you trust the other person to sit alongside and help and vice versa. And we get on and do our stuff. So it's been pretty much a marriage made in heaven from that perspective. And then we have a gradity around us where we've brought in and people that we know and want to do exactly the same thing. So the start of it, and to go back to it, we wanted to create something in the DFM space. We've pivoted, obviously, in the process of that. The end game was to look after clients in a very centric way. And to provide them with all the services that maybe not have been provided before. I think we had an advantage going into COVID, or coming out of COVID the other side of it, is that we had a balance sheet. We'd managed to raise sufficient capital to go and make some strategic purchases. And I think from that, what we were really resolute about doing was giving clients a full stack service across the board. And to do it in a way, I wouldn't say necessary. It is definitely in a cost effective way. But to give them something is a service proposition. And to make sure that they have something that I don't think is necessarily provided elsewhere. I'm not saying that we are unique. What I'm saying is that we do things to the best of our ability. And that has been throughout every strategic acquisition that we've done. Okay, love it. Sorry. We're over a ramble. That's great. So obviously, Andrew, your background as well. He tells a little bit about your background. And you're sort of the story. I'll leave now. I'll be quicker as well. I started love corporate lawyer. I did that till I was 30. I wasn't really cut out to be a corporate lawyer. So I decided to move on into other things. Got involved in various technology businesses. I was involved in running an aim company in my early 30s and then moved into capital fund raising for businesses, IPOs, etc. Hence, I've got involved in raising capital for the IWP by and build. And certainly M&A and capital raising are sort of my skill sets. That's what I enjoy doing. The partnership with James was complimentary because obviously he'd been involved in running financial services businesses before. The Titan project was really to look at scaling and buying businesses. But we always knew that we would ultimately end up with advices, the root of the heart of the business because that's where the clients sit. And so that's been the big focus for us. And I think we've had some problems. We've bought some businesses that haven't worked as everyone will know. But we've also had some great successes. And as we get bigger, the successes get greater. The big thing that we are apart from being focused on the UK is really the international push to make us a differentiator in market. And so now we're very focused on growing the international business so that wherever clients move, we can look after them. Which I'm huge excited about. International side, the acquisition over there of Blackshard is going through at the moment in the US. The US market to me is super, super exciting. And I've stepped my foot into the international space. I was over into buying working for another company out there as a head of creative. So I've really kind of got my understanding of the international market and the opportunity out there. But those that don't know though, Angie, what is the opportunity in international space? What do you see? We're really focused on expats. We're not really focused on local people, local markets. So the focus on expats and looking after UK citizens wherever they may relocate. So that includes the US. So we're not looking to advise US citizens. We're very much looking to look after clients as they move geographically abroad. For whatever reason, retirement, tax, opportunity, employment, etc, etc. And the key jurisdictions really are US, Europe, Switzerland to a degree, Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai, UAE, and as far as Flung is Australia. And that's really the geographical spread that we'll have by the end of this year. When you start talking to companies out there about your movements into the international space and the success that you're having, these companies that you're talking to, these firms mainly possibly UK-based as well as international. But are they quite excited about the global impact that you're having and the opportunity to move into that borderless advice space? Interesting. Well, isn't it? I think they are. I think a lot of them have come from the UK. So you'll find a lot of the advice as we deal with, came from the UK and probably one day we'll relocate back to the UK. And from a client perspective, I mean, since we left the EU, a number of advisors don't even realise this in the UK. They cannot advise a client at the moment they leave the UK shores. So they lose them to other places. So from a UK advisor perspective, the advisors in the UK are excited by the fact that they don't lose the client. And having that sort of ability to advise clients within relevant geographies is critical to them. And within the same term as well. So I mean, that's the exciting bit. And we're already seeing that. We're seeing it from IWP acquisition and prior to even being acquired. We're seeing it. from the AHR as we did in the Middle East and back in. And so I'm saying with the channel line, so I mean, we get it all the time. - Yeah, and also that repatriation as well, isn't it? Clients are going away, they're moving abroad, but they're also coming back. So having the ability to continue that advice as they return. - Yep. - You know, it's super exciting. And I've been speaking to you a number of people within the business, and they're really positive about that repatriation side of it as well. That seemed like a real winner for them. Actually, in the private client side as well, when we're seeing a lot of movement, right? - I think private clients, with the way that we're doing is get a benefit all across the board. They get a consistency by either of the advisor, maybe not of the advisor sometimes, but the service is exactly the same. So whether you're in here, Gernsey, Jersey, wherever you happen to be, Middle East, US, Europe, it'll be, and I'm not isolating any of those, but it's exactly the same service. And we can spread that across the board. It's, I mean, we've grown, we've grown, let's say exponentially, but we've grown quite quickly. I mean, we're 25 acquisition stem. With more to come, I think the service proposition, whether within Titan is second to none, I think everything from precious metals all the way through to fund management, through to advice, through to tax, you name it, we have it. And I think that was what we set out originally to do, was to be an all-in-composing service within financial services. And that doesn't matter whether you're clients or whether you're joining us as part of the partnership as a team and by people selling their business to us, joining us, whatever it happens to be, it should be attractive. And we, and the management team, with the exception of our lawyers out here on my left, have had financial services experience. And I think that is critical. I think where we want to go is you need to have experience in those fields and also wonder what clients actually want. I mean, I've been doing this since I was 16, I'm 55 now. You get a feel of roughly what clients want. And the consistency of services is absolutely key. I think that if you say it, just do it. And if you don't know it, ask it. I think if we keep on going on those premises, then in which case we're in a pretty good space. I mean, no one would ever say they were perfect, but we're trying to go that way. - I love it. I do think that I'm going to challenge you on that. I think people coming in to financial planning, financial services from other professions, I think they add a huge amount of value. A different perspective is often taken when somebody say, comes from a legal background. They see things differently. I've seen that myself with some of the people that I've worked with in the past. I myself, you know, I came 16 years in recruitment, straight into a C3 level role last year within a financial planning firm. And I made a hugely positive impact within that business because I'm not kind of locked in in that kind of mindset. So I think I challenge you on that that some people coming in from other professions or other industries can have some serious value, I think. You're right, I think they can do. I mean, if you look at, I'm just, you know, all the characters involved. I mean, look at marketing and they've got FMCG background. So I think that we, and we have lawyers who work for us. We've got people in HR who've worked for massive, large, very large businesses. You've got a whole scope. We have a, you know, CTO who's worked for multiple tech companies, I mean, scale tech companies. I think that is definitely important when you're growing. I mean, we've gone from 70 people to 1400. I mean, it's quite a challenge. And you, you know, you're permanently fielding questions left right in Centre and sometimes it gets an interesting dynamic. But I think at the end of the day, you try and take the best out of people. That's what you're trying to do and utilize that for the benefit ultimately of the client. - I love it. - PE is often seen as the kind of devil in a cottage industry such as financial planning. Why do you think it's perceived that way? - I think so. First of all, the cottage industry needs to grow up. Irregulator wants the cottage industry to grow up. It doesn't want so many directly authorized businesses. And there's this whole retirement thing going on in the industry where his business has been started 30, 35 years ago. And the owners are in their late 50s, early 60s. So, I mean, it needs consolidating on a number of fronts. The only way to do it is with financial backing. The only real way to do that is with private equity because they're the main backers in any sector, in any consolidation sector. My experience of private equity is generally, actually, they're often pretty good guys provided. You deliver a return for them because they've invested to get a return. If you don't deliver a return, then they'll have to get more involved to make sure they don't lose their money, because ultimately they're responsible to their investors who are often pension funds, et cetera, et cetera, that actually look after the very assets for the clients that the advisors are looking after if you get my set of money for the drift. So, I think, yes, private equity does have a negative connotation, not least because of things like barbarians that the gates and the late 80s when Nabisco was aggressively taken over by KKR. If you haven't seen the film, you should. But, actually, I think these days, private equity, and there are some exceptions, are pretty good people to work with and for. So, less of a threat, more of an enabler for you guys then, and tie them well. Can you go into detail about how PE can actually enable a business like yours for good? Not saying that they do things bad, I'm just saying a lot of people think it's bad, because everyone's negative about it. I think this is an interesting space. I think the reality is it depends whether you want them. People think that they get involved in the business that Asandra has already touched on. If the business is going wrong, they will step in to protect their investment. In some of these cases, they're protecting tens of millions of pounds, if not hundreds of millions of pounds. I think the reality is, is in our case, our PE investors are well and truly invested. They're interested in our wellbeing and the company's wellbeing. I think that they're there as a capital provider. No matter what anyone says in the way that this business has evolved, I mean, I can give you a detail that I used to, when I first started out doing buying builds back in 2000, which is my first purchase ever in this space, and I bought a business called Brabins, which is based down in Beckham. We paid three and a half times EBITDA. That was all we paid. It was had to be consistent. It had to be three years. It wasn't growing. It wasn't last 12 months or run rate or anything of these factors. The world has moved on because of the consistency of income that's provided. The multiples have changed. The banks can't play in this game because they can't physically lend you money to do these purchases. So, PE has evolved. And if they didn't have the money and capacity there, there would be a problem. There wouldn't be a buying and a selling of the market at all. And so, I can only say, I know where your comments are coming from, and the perception of PE, that probably means that the people don't understand PE and have never worked with PE along the lines. And probably, by the way, there are good PE people to have and bad PE people. I mean, that's with everything. There's probably good IFAs and there's bad IFAs. It doesn't. It's the same sort of thing. So, how does Tyson's model differ from highly leveraged or short term plays? Because, you know, I spoke to both of you quite length and listen to some of your strategy meetings. And it's not a quick business. You're here for a long time. So, how does it differ from the short term play? Well, first of all, every buy and build requires a degree of leverage. Because debt is the anyway you can actually scale because of the way you don't get the equity returns. So, if you look at the insurance sector, look at all these different sectors, look at fire and safety, whatever the sector, there needs to be an element of borrowing in there. In terms of our strategy is a long term strategy. I mean, you do see some private equity groups go in and sell within three years, and they sell to someone else. It's not really the best outcome for the people in the business. That's not our strategy. Our strategy is much longer playing. So, as our backer's path are on, they are long term investors. And hopefully we'll bring in other investors to sit alongside them at some point in the future. So, we can create a long term capital base and bring the next generation through. And the group, that's a key thing for us. Because, you know, James is about term 56. He'll always tell you he's younger than me, but they're the same school year. I am 56. We're not going to be doing this in 15 years time. We'll be two-old and two-gray. And I think, so, next generation. So, how do you create a capital structure that allows that for full itself? I have another answer to that as well. Actually, the reality is, is if it's a highly leveraged structure, it means that it's got there and it's formed the part. Doesn't mean anything else. Because don't think that PE and private debt go into these things to have an overly leveraged structure. They do not. So, my argument would be, if it's got to that stage, stage, there's a problem fundamentally in the business. Gotcha. Now you can't say that. One other thing that people, and this is where you, I WP went wrong, just running a buy and building financial services is not sufficient. Because these earnouts are never self-financing. Because everyone forgets, you've got to pay profit on them, etc. So, what you need to do is you need to have an element of other services and solutions in the group that add to that revenue creation. That's where the value comes. It's critical. And if people don't have that in a consolidation play, they will ultimately struggle with leverage. Gotcha. You mentioned earlier, as you've scaled, got bigger. You feel like it's gotten a bit easier. Is that, how does that benefit the client? How does that benefit the advisor? Well, sure, it's got easier for us personally, but I think it's got better because as we scale, we've got broader products and services. We've also managed to bring the management of the group, the team within us are working very succinctly with each other across different, and so everyone's found their place, everyone knows where their strengths are, and that in itself brings solidity to the group. And we've seen that as well in internationally, you know, guys and Dubai, very much wanting to get more involved in the group. People in the channel lines really wanted to get more involved in the group, and they are. That brings, that brings solidity, that brings strength and depth across the business, which has been a real pleasing factor to see in 25, and we'll see it continue in 26. Definitely agree, like the channel islands and the Dubai team, along with E2 as well, Mike Fogden, is kind of my exposure to the business, and everyone's got a huge amount of energy, especially from that size. So you can definitely tell there's a keenness to get involved in the group at that level, and when you brought me along to that strategy day, for me it was like a behind the scenes look at some of the top brains in your business that will come into gather and, you know, working out these solutions to push the business forward, and there was a very open conversation there, you know, it was like, share your ideas, it was bringing people into the actual conversation. It's James, this is something that you really are passionate about, it's like creative culture of entrepreneurialism. We have to. I mean, there's no way we can keep on going and growing without having that you call it entrepreneurialism. I think, I quite like it, but I think it's just open thought, listening to people, making sure that, that you can't run a company of this size just by yourself. I mean, it would either have to be a complete dictatorship, which is not. I think what you have to allow people as a bit of space to actually explore, and when I say explore, I mean, currently the idea is that they think they can run with. I was brought up on the basis that I was given enough rope to hang myself, and I think that is, so if I go back to, you know, being 16 through to 25, literally going out there, and you put the work in, you see what you see what the sees that you sow, and then effectively see what comes back. If you work hard to be honest, you allow people to grow as well. Both in themselves and in the company, it gives them accountability, it gives them the fact that they can get on and do things. And I think culturally across the beast, we've done that from day one, because we don't know everything. I mean, whether Andrew knows anything about, say financial planning, the actual in-depth bit, I'm not saying I do either, but I, and so you bring good people in around you, and we have a great team. We have a fantastic team, and I think we have developed that over the last four years. We've had some right ones, and we've had some wrong ones, and that's not pointing it is just culturally, that is how we want to go, and we want to have the depth of talent that we can call on to utilize and to put out the benefits everybody, both the company and the clients ultimately. And we've got that. I think we've done that and continue to do it. It just gets a hard task, and I think that's going back to your original point, as life becomes easier. It's easier because of scale, because you can actually go and get depth of talent. It's harder because I think we work 24/7 anyway. It's not like we sit back and relax. So I think you've always got to be watching what's going on, having the international space, by the way, is interesting, because you bring a whole new dynamic. I mean, Andrew and I are moving around. I'm going to say the globe, sounds really grandiose, that is, those bollocks, and those also, it's not that exciting. It's exciting that you're growing business, but moving around the daily basis, but certainly a weekly basis is quite hard work. And what we've got is a great team. I mean, the team, I would say, is second to none. And just to add culture is the critical thing. Right culture, no corporate stuff, the right culture is critical. So I just came out from Birmingham where we met a lot of the advisors at IWP, and the key message there is entrepreneurship culture, but also I will listen and will also explain and tell everyone what's going on. So communication. You get all of those things and you continue them, and you're out and about seeing people, then it's not a big corporate sort of elephant in the room. You know, you're on the ground, and that's critical, and that's really our main role now. I was thinking sort of admirable as well that you are prepared also to create a podcast and bring us into that space and into that world to be able to tell your story, whether that's your story internally, to connect the businesses that come in, and the individuals that are part of that business, you might not have the luxury of spending time with you or other senior leaders within the business. So being able to bring those individuals to life through stories, through podcasts, and sharing that content both internally, but also flipping on his head and just saying, look, this is what we're doing. This is who we are, and this is our narrative. I think it's really, really important, and in this day and age, people love that kind of building public type philosophy. So I think it's really cool that you're doing that, and you've allowed me into your space to actually bring that story to life, because I think there's a lot of people on the outside who just don't know who you are or what you do, and I think this is going to really shine a light on you as a business, and it's really cool. Something you touched on as well, which is really important for me here at the Financial Planet Life Podcast, you know, I set it up because I wanted to attract new people to the profession. That's one of the biggest things, close that advice gap. And I'm always excited to be working with companies that really do care about the next generation, and it was something that you said. You brought up his age, 59, I think it was. Fifty-seven. He looks fifty now. But so let's just talk about that, because it's a really important subject, you know, we need to attract new people, and the thing is, it's an important just to track to them. They need to be trained. You need to have client exposure. What type of things are you doing as a business? We have an academy. Perfect. We launched it about 18 months ago. It was actually a project that came out of one of the businesses that we had in catering. And our project, two of the founders who told their business called John and Julie, who retired from the business, but still are involved in the academy. And that was focused a lot on not just on bringing new people through, or existing people within the business, but also career change people. So we've done quite a lot around the rugby scene, so we've got about 19 people, professional sports people. We were retraining his power up, sorry, financial advisors in the business. Some of them are already going out and advising, and they've come from all walks of life, including three ladies who were GB-7 suppliers. So it's not just male or entered. And similarly, James and I are both very keen on bringing interns into the group who've come from university straight in. We've also been out to a couple of schools to give financial planning, education to six formers, etc. So that whole project to encourage career change, new people to join the business, and also to introduce the concept, the big brand-eam less school yet is something that's important to us. It's not one of those things you normally find on the milk ground. Let's just say that. I've never been to a milk round, but I mean, you don't normally have financial services popping up there. And I think most of your listeners will have fallen into financial services or financial planning by hook or by crook. I think also there's a big age gap difference. I mean, we do actively encourage, I mean, we've got quite a lot of 20-somethings within the group and hopefully we will have more, one because they're lively, they're proactive, they're willing to learn, etc. But you've obviously got the average age group. I think you probably told me that the average age of an IFA is actually not 56 now. It's 59. It's definitely going up. And I think that is probably indicative of the fact that the world is changing, but I think financial planning as a job, not investment planning, financial planning, I say, is something that is probably more needed now than it ever has been. And if you can start getting people from to educate them, and this is an education, I mean, financial planning to a degree is an education process, both internally. Both emotionally, I, from an EQ point of view, and getting youngsters to understand what they're dealing with. I mean, I think it's always a classic case in point. Ask how many financial planners have a pension plan. It's always a great one. And most of them say, "Oh, well, I didn't start until I was 40 or something like that." They're rushing to do it. So I think we actively encourage it across the group. Yeah, 100%. I love that. Absolutely. I've had luxury of two individuals already come on the podcast. So B for you, who came through and now heads up the sports academy. And he's been in a phenomenal job. And he was so open on the podcast, just about life after sports as well. Just how, you know, upsetting that actually was for him, his career came to an end. He wasn't quite sure who's going, but lucky enough, he was studying towards becoming a financial planner. So he had his foot in another career. And that's what he's really passionate about. It's the same as people. You know, you're not going to be doing this forever. So look at something else. And financial planning is a phenomenal career to get into. And I love that locker room style mentality as well. So if he's been in the locker room with the girls or the boys or whatever, you know, he's sporting genuine. If he's been in with the girls, just, you know, that might be a problem. I think I think it's teamwork and the social. I think that's the critical bit. And I think this is, you know, you get it through all walks of life as we were growing up. I mean, I think the one thing about financial planning and being out there and having started my career there is it was very social. You've got to meet lots of people. And Andrew and I meet, you know, I'm gonna say hundreds of people. And to be honest, that's what keeps you going 'cause it's actually fun and enjoyable. And you want youngsters to learn how to do it. But you get a lot of it through teamwork. - Yep. - Oh. - The thing is as well, people need to see people doing the job, right? I'm doing this thing at the moment. I've got Hannah, who works to me. She's my operations manager. And she wants to be a financial advisor, right? I'm not a financial advisor company but I'm prepared to pay for her qualifications. I'm prepared to put her on my podcast and actually show her journey from starting her qualifications and training and coaching and all the stuff that goes with it all the way through to becoming an advisor and help support her go down a self-employed group. And you never know, I'm like, "Build me an advice practice." And all the people that come through my podcast go into my advice practice. You know, fantastic. The thing is that people will see that, listen to it and learn about it, all the intricate parts of the journey, not just, I'm a financial planner and this is what I do. The whole, how do I do it? And it's so important. We had Ella Safri, who's one of your fantastic advisors. She was on an oil rig. You know, very male dominated and she was one of 160 on there and she was a female. Now, in respects of her journey from power planner to power planner manager and now to financial advisor in under three years within your business, is phenomenal. You know, some of the younger chaps in there, managing over 100 million, you know, high net worth clients doing a fantastic job working very closely with the investment managers. The type of exposure you're giving younger advisors to be able to walk in a to a job that gives them an employed option as well because most of the academies out there are self-employed. So it's really only geared towards those second careerists who've got cash in the bank. We all know you need to get two years really before you start to make some money. So how is somebody who hasn't got the cash in the bank going to enter a profession where we say desperately need young people? So what you're doing around building your academy around employment and then the ability to actually go through what you class is the bionic which is like a telephone based desk environment. There's opportunities there to then move into other areas of business. I just think it's phenomenal. And the evidence is there already and we're already bringing them on to talk about those stories. So Q-dose really, I think it's great. And as it grows and gets bigger and better and stronger, I think it's going to be an academy that's going to be really stand out. Because there aren't many out there that they're doing it. So it's really, really good. I just want to talk to you about acquisitions. You're obviously on the acquisition trail. You want to continue to acquire businesses. What are some of the challenges that say firms face at this point in time in the market? What should they be thinking about exiting in respect of their business? We've talked about average age 56. A lot of these business owners are that age. When should they start thinking about exiting? When should they start having conversations with you? And what are some of the things that might be have challenged them at this point? Are they need to overcome to exit successfully? Then I need to think about it three or four years before they actually want to exit. Because all acquisitions have earnouts attached. And also, there's a process. The process can take sort of six to nine to 12 months from start to finish until you've actually sold the business itself. The biggest issue that you get is things like regulation. So regulation is getting tougher for them to navigate. They're also conscious that they want to give their people an opportunity to be part of a bigger group. Because they're still part of a smaller business. And one of the things that I see when I go and meet these acquisitions after we've exchanged, et cetera, and meet all the team, is there excites about being part of a bigger group? And the opportunities for those people be they back off with staff power plans, whatever, to progress if they want to. They don't. They can stay doing what they're doing. And so those, I think, regulation and just-- it's tough out there for small businesses. And it will only get tougher, particularly in a financial service environment. OK. What about things like selling your business? Is it an easy journey for somebody that goes through the motions of selling their business? I sold my recruitment business. And what surprised me with the most was just how depressed I was afterwards, if I'm honest. I got really sad. Like, I know, 16 years of turning up into something I wasn't really that into. But I ended up really feeling at a loss. And I think it was also because it wasn't on my terms as well. It really hit me hard. Do you go through that? Do you sort of-- there I say it-- hold hands if you like, if people are going through the process of selling their business? Are you preparing them for perhaps the emotional toilet might have on them? It is an emotional journey for them, definitely. And it's also a process that we'll never have encountered before, because the due diligence, et cetera, can be overwhelming at times. And that's kind of the legal process that they've never done before. And then you get different sellers with different sort of somebody want to retire. And are actually really excited about getting to be able to get out. Others get remorse, significant remorse. The one thing we do is we don't say on any transaction, you have to leave or you have to stay. We give everyone the opportunity to do whatever they want, the seller. And some will stay for longer and others won't. So 25 businesses, though, have already signed the dotted line and joined the group. So you must be doing something right. Because that's a lot over a four-year period. Change might just creep, probably won't double. I-- I'm going to say it's me that won't stop. No, I think it is definitely a real one-servile. I think this is where the balance comes. I think there have been some very early doors. It was a different kettle of fish. I think we were very quick to it. And if I go back to 2022-- which was that there with the acquisition of Card Al? Yes. 20 change to-- One, it was a game changer, because of scale and size. Two, because I think that you pick strategic purchases. And we also then-- and Andrew's such on catering, which is "Telford Man." There are strategic changes. And we have pivoted ever so slightly from being DFFM or intated to financial planning and advice. We've obviously had a couple of fund management businesses that we effectively bought in early doors as well. I think everything that we buy is very strategic. We think about it. There is obviously sometimes-- as we actually had a conversation yesterday, you get bosses coming along. And the question is, is whether you jump on that bus or whether you don't? There are different sizes of business. I mean, the world is your oyster, because I think we have an opportunity in what we're doing. We've seen the Evelyn purchase, obviously, by net West, two days ago. I think that's an indication of what is going on in the market at the higher level, or the bigger level, rather than higher level. I think there's always something going on. I mean, everything from refinancing is that are going on within larger consolidators to smaller acquisitions, and we've made, obviously, two or three recently, that are on the smaller side. They're not small, but they're on the smaller side, relative to a Ravenscraft or a AHR or one of these businesses. We will continue in that vein, but it will be very strategic as to what we're trying to do and what fits the bill. I think I'll go back all the way to the beginning. What are we trying to be? And I think between the two of us, we know what we want to be. We want to be a global player in the financial planning where we want to look after clients, whether they be here, Middle East, US, Europe, Far East, Australia. And if we can continue to do that, then the service set that a client gets is hopefully second to none, but is also consistent. And I think consistency. So we think that we've got the ability to grow the business, I guess, exponentially. I mean, there is obviously a point that it comes where you go, OK, find what's too big. But at the same time, if we're creating something that everybody wants-- and when I say that, clients-- and also from an investor point of view, we don't want to go X growth. And I don't think we're in that space at all. I think we've got a lot of growth ahead. And we may not be here in 15 years' time, but I think we'll be here in a few more years to come. And that's the exciting bit to it. OK, what does the next five years look like, then? So if we look at the next five years for Titan, Wealth-- What does it mean? We haven't done five years yet. Oh, yeah, sure. We haven't done five years, that's true. That's crazy. Let's do the next three years. Yeah, I think. So I think the next three years will make further acquisitions, but will also make-- provide and make sure all of the services within the group are utilized by those businesses. Will expand on those services. Will expand on the geographical reach that we've got. And we'll continue to put the client and the advisor at the heart of the journey. How big we get is really, depending upon the opportunity. I can tell you, we've turned down more acquisitions than we've done in the last four years. And despite what you may read in the press, we have never paid-- we've paid very low multiples for most of the businesses we bought deliberately. And we've taken advantage of the synergies as well within those businesses. So yeah, I think we could easily double in size over the next three years. But who knows? What does the pipeline actually look like? You've got $44 billion under management right now, or 1,400 staff. What-- you know, what-- What can we expect in the next year? Is it going to grow, expeditions in the next year, do you think? Well, internationally we've got a very strong pipeline. In the UK we are rebuilding the pipeline at the moment. I've got to say there's a lot of people paying silly multiples at the moment. I think it's because there's a number of consolidated looking to come to market in the next 12 months. They're trying to flesh themselves out and advance a going. But we will not be dragged into a bidding war. We don't need to anymore. We'll just play it as it comes. Love it. As a term, this has been coined by you guys. One Titan. You're going to ask you the question, James. What does one Titan mean to you? One Titan means I think that everyone is pulling in the same direction for the same purpose and all together. I think, listen, I've never worked for a big corporate. We're not a big corporate. We're a very entrepreneurial business. I think having, you have to have divergence of some thought. But by and large, if you have 75% to 80% of the thought process all channeled in the right direction, you can only win. I think that is what one Titan is. It's quite funny. We've bought these 25 businesses. As we go through integration, obviously, everyone tries to integrate the businesses, what we do integrate the businesses, but in terms of the thought process. You sometimes think that, listen, you and I obviously were out in Dubai quite recently. They've been huge advocates for this. It's not Titan, wealth, international, or Titan, wealth planning or something like that. It's just Titan, and it's one Titan. The reason it's one Titan is because, as we've had I've had a client today, he's after, ironically, he's after five tons metric, tons of gold. They're not in the UK. It happens to be a Middle Eastern client. The one thing that we do have is that we have a precious metals team and we have faults in Guernsey. Not everybody knows that. Likewise, we've also had, I've had a client, I was talking to my father's client. The fact that he wants a certain service, so I've spoken to the advisor who's looking after him. I've said, do you know where this is coming? He said, "Ah, okay. I wasn't aware that we did this." I've said, "Well, there you are. Go and speak to Fred over there." I've realized that what we need to do under one Titan is be aware of all the services. Whether it be trading in gold, whether it be direct equities, whether it be inheritance tax advice, whether it be the fact that we have a VCT or access to a VCT, whether it be workplace pensions and things like that. Everyone needs to understand that we are just one group and we're not one individual internally within. That's historically where I'd say, advisors and what's morphed over the last few years of financial planning. It's the realization that we have, I always say cradle together, because I don't like that, but end-to-end capabilities for financial planning and asset management of some description. I love that. Internal communication plays another part in that and the way people want to learn about the business that they're in, especially one that is growing such a rate. I love that. Great. Connecting the business in that way. Same question to you and Andrew. Community, I think, is what one Titan means to me. It's one big community. We have to bring people together as often as we can to create that community. And they have to be aligned in the vision, aligned in the culture. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate your insight into the business. I think, give yourself a massive pat on the back. It doesn't sound patronising. I can imagine when you are working at the level that you're working at, people don't often see them out of hours and time and energy and stress that goes into building and running a business of this size. It's phenomenal and I've seen so far as admirable, so thank you for letting me in. And being part of your Titan wealth, one Titan journey has been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Many thanks.