Inside the Celtics' Decision to Trade Jaylen Brown With Chris Mannix

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Real simple bonus episode me and Chris Bannock's breaking down the Jalen Brown trade winner go home. That's it. The Cup knocked out round as now and Draft Kings has you covered for every single match. The Draft Kings app is now available in all 50 states and includes all markets bringing the game straight to your fingertips wherever you are from Florida to Texas to California. You're in on the excitement at the speed of sports. Follow every knockout round thriller every petally shoot out every stoppage time moment that ends a nation's run. Sweat the matches that matter in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. New Draft Kings customers sign up with the code Ryan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days. That's code Ryan R.Y.E.N. in partnership with Draft Kings. The crown is yours and extra pod this week. Chris Manick joins us. We're going to do 20 minutes on trying to figure out the root cause of the Jalen Brown trade and the reaction. Therefore, of course, Manick's sports illustrated in the open floor podcast. All right. I think there are bad trades. I don't understand and then there are bad trades that I understand. So let's just start with you. I know no one likes this right now, but where are you today with having more information about what happened? I'm still in the same place where I don't think this is a defensive trade as currently constructed, let's say. If if this is all they get out of it going into next season, if they don't use this draft capital to go out and get another piece to this puzzle, then I still think it is one of the more inexplicable deals that I've seen in the most inexplicable deal I've seen since the Lugodan just trade for being honest. Mostly because I don't believe that this particular deal was going anywhere like I think they could have done this deal two weeks from now, two months from now, there was no market for Paul George there. This kind of package would have been on the table from Philadelphia at any point time over the next few months. The biggest thing I I struggle with is the sense of urgency that the Celtics had in getting this deal done and pushing it through as fast they did given the return that they got. I don't know if I put it in the Luca one can you can you say since then since then like I think I don't think it's Luca, I think that is the most inexplicable deal, maybe in modern basketball history. I think it was yeah, not having any like deciding, hey, I'm going to do this in secret with only one team and not even shop this guy around who's also. But since since since then sure and before then I can't think of a deal like this that matches up in how head scratching that it was I'm a big believer in the talent of Jalen Brown, I'm not here really for the analytics debate to me. Championship finals MVP 56 win season all these things top any kind of numbers that suggest the Celtics might be better without Jalen Brown, I do think as to the why of this deal I do think fundamentally the Celtics believed that the Jalen Brown Jason Tatum on court partnership had run its course and I do believe they thought that. There was a good chance it was going to deteriorate even further if this duo this group was kept together I do think they believed that the way Jalen played last year the all NBA second team the sixth place for MVP that that was going to make it even more difficult for him to settle into the kind of role that he would have to play in for this team to be successful. So I think that's that's part of the why the Celtics didn't at least from my understanding I still don't understand the urgency when you're getting back a shell of Paul George who has played 78 games over the last two years. I've heard from his people in Boston say well you look great in that first round playoff series okay well that came after a two month league mandated vacation there after he tested positive for a bad substance it's a little bit easier to look great in a first round series when you've got fresh legs all George does not have healthy legs Paul George is a jump sure at this stage of his career he's not a lot more than that and he has one of the worst contracts in the NBA. So I in talking to people I understand why they why they felt they had to do it I just still don't fundamentally understand why they had to do it this quickly when the return was what it was. We're in agreement on that and I don't like the trade okay so I haven't done a pot I haven't done a monologue on all of it because we'd already taped everything alright so I don't like the trade I don't like the trade for the reason you said if this is what's on the table then wait let's get to training camp and see if somebody blows out an ACL I think you can even argue let's see how it goes and then maybe somebody else thinks it's it's better to go ahead and acquire him but that becomes really challenging if you're like what if the Celtics are in pace for like 56 wins. And then you're trading Jalen Brown in season so that's a really tough one to pull off makes it look like you guys are punting meaning the Celtics you're punting on the season midway through the season although you can argue you know what's the package coming back but if it's another team it's contending they're not giving you one of the really great core players and the draft picks that then add Jalen Brown I mean that becomes really complicated like the rounding up. Then there's the element of like do you bring this guy back in with his personality my argument before you know is after the honest thing and hey you can't bring him back could you bring him back I mean like look he's kind of the same guy who complains and has this persecution complex which a lot of players have by the way that he's always he's had that when things are good so I don't know is it going to be that different when he comes back after some of this trade stuff the other part that's crushing Brad here. Is there's a version of events where it seems like people are suggesting that Brad turn down Yannis for Jalen but then did it for Paul George where I think that's really it's ultimately an accurate because Yannis wanted Miami his agent wanted Miami Yannis is agent told the Celtics like yeah but not really and then we're not doing the extension I feel like Boston was happy to drive the price up for Miami knowing they're more desperate but I mean Yannis is already been vacationing down there visiting the whole time. The agent played a major part in kind of diminishing Boston's like long term interest in this stuff because Miami was their first choice and it's the part of the process and made sense to go ahead and do that so there's a lot of factors whether it's media members from Boston over reacting freaking out about me watching a part of my take stuff where they've got a Philly fan they've got a Boston fan with Max and Hank and it like becomes all this content and so there's a lot of like other factors that are making this worse but on the Yannis one I think that's incredibly misleading. I grew at that part on the Yannis one I would disagree on the extension stuff because I think Yannis is signing a long-term extension it would have signed a long-term extension wherever he was whenever he was eligible because I think Yannis and his team also understand the physical risk that he has right now you know coming off back to back seasons where he's at soft tissue injuries. If you're Yannis and an offer's on the table whatever it may be three-year extension four-year extension whatever he's eligible for wherever he was I think he was going to sign that I think any suggestion that he might not have was probably going to be a bluff now maybe it was a good bluff and if you're giving up we agree it's he's signing that four-year thing 100% no you agree that he's not he's not running running that risk there um jalen brown the idea of him feeling persecuted it is true. I think where it differs from other stars is that Jalen Brown It just seems like it's every year with this guy and it's not that way for other stars I mean you go back and you remember this Ryan from draft night when at the TD Garden His selection was booed by a bunch of fans that either wanted Jimmy Butler via trade or some of them wanted Chris done Chris drafted from down in Providence like there was like from day one He has been feeling like he has not been fully embraced either by the city at first and Certainly by the organization whether it was the Anthony Davis trade talks the Kawaii Leonard trade talks the Kevin Durant trade talks So I think he's got a reasonable She should feel okay for it to feel persecuted. He's right to feel persecuted where where this Where this feared off is that in the past with all the guys we've talked about It's been about those guys. It was about Kevin Durant in 2022. It was about Anthony Davis It was about Kawaii Leonard. It wasn't just about offloading Jalen Brown This these last few weeks felt about offloading Jalen Brown and clearly That's what this was because ultimately they took a package that does not make them a better team in 2026 27 and unless they can use this draft capital to go get another player It doesn't make them a better team moving forward. That's why I think Jalen Brown is more upset now than he was All those years ago under all those different types of situations. You can bring yourself to understand if you're Jalen Brown And you're being talked about to trade for Kevin Durant or talked about a trade for Yannis But if you've got the GM of the team that is canvassing the league looking for off making offers looking to get Different things back in return that took this situation. I think to a whole other level and made it as toxic as it became Yeah, I None of us would want this to happen to us. It's very easy for us to say hey You make all this money. This is part of the job You know sometimes you're speculated and there are some players too It's like just because some random Twitter account suggests you're available It doesn't mean you have to shut down mentally and feel like the team has turned their back on you I mean your profession is that you're an asset and those assets get talked about and more so in this league than any other league And it kind of comes with it But this one was more and it was it it became far more public, but I'd say Like Jalen does have Like there's Kyrie fans out there. I was not a fan of Boston Kyrie I was not a fan of Brooklyn Kyrie I totally understood what he wanted out of Cleveland and I had his back things have been really good now Since he's been in Dallas. It hasn't been kind of the thing where it's like when's you know It's been 12 months like when's Kyrie going to do something like that hasn't happened and good for him But they're feel like I don't know if you'll agree or disagree But I think there's been some similarities there with Jalen Brown and Kyrie where it's just not for everybody every day and it can wear you out Yes, I can see from a personality perspective I think the obvious difference is Kyrie didn't do anything in Boston and Jalen Brown did a lot You know Jalen Brown six conference finals two finals a championship a finals MVP That protects you from a lot of things and also like I mean Jalen Brown not to sit here and just make the Jalen Brown defense on everything but Like Kyrie does stuff in the community Jalen Brown does a ton in the community Jalen Brown is off the court reputation is Impeccable in terms of like kind of what he brings and what he brought to that Boston community what he brings the communities You know nationally, so I think that that to me is is The bigger difference in that Jalen Brown forged a strong connection with that Boston community Jalen Brown For the team because they don't want a championship without Jalen Brown. Maybe they don't get to the finals without Jalen Brown in 2024 I do think he deserved better than to just be Offloaded like he was some kind of toxic asset and to see his reputation Drag through the mud. I mean this is a elite guy with three guaranteed years left on his contract now Yes, it's a big number but in today's NBA if you're producing it ain't that big like from a talent perspective and ain't that big I thought he deserved a lot better than that You know Bobby Marx made a bunch of headlines when he said that a front office suggested that Jalen Brown was a seven best player And I talked about this already because I was like look Bobby's relaying that to us You could argue that maybe Bobby says this is so ridiculous Don't even share it then it turns into something where even Jalen Brown is responding. I completely understood by Jalen was upset But what Bobby was really doing was he was going hey the market for him and Whatever you think of him as a player because I think we are more aligned on the play like I'd even said like whatever the analytics are He's never had the best analytic profile the fact that it's this big wing They can get you a bucket and everything is broken down to the playoffs that you can put them on a ball handler Defensively even if you're down on his on off stuff and what it means team div team defensive wise over the course A regular season like that's a real thing at this age and I didn't really understand the urgency of like well He's gonna want to get resigned He's like well, look he's he's under contract for three like real years not team option not player option three Real years like you can probably just run this back and not have to worry about this imminent contract I think because it's not nearly as in a minute Judd imminent just because he's eligible for this extension July six But what Bobby was doing he was telling the basketball world the market for him sucks and When I had been told about a couple offers. I was like oh my god Like I would I would never do that and then there's another offer you here with teams that were involved in some of these conversations And I was like this is awful So I was prepared if you was traded for it to like be underwhelming I also think some of the other rumors of deals that sounded better weren't even a possibility And so that ends up being Paul George for these two picks and maybe the 28 pick it's they get lucky with it, but I'm with you. I would have just said if this is if it's this bad I'm gonna wait and Philly wants him so bad. They're off of the Paul George stuff like is that the best you could do So even if you were okay with this, which I don't think any of us are If it's sometimes it's just like hey if they're not gonna come down on their price Then I'll go look at another house. I'm totally fine. I'm totally fine with doing something else and it felt like Boston Dealed from position of we have to do something which is usually when you lose these transactions. I think two things on this I don't I have I have not personally heard that the analytics of Jalen Brown We're giving teams significant reason for pause. I've read it. I've heard people like Bobby say it But the executives that I have talked to have not made the anti-analytics argument to me when it comes to Jalen Brown The arguments that have been made to me is a couple of them by multiple teams One is the concern that if Jalen Brown is not happy in his role playing opposite Jason Tatum in Boston Will he be happy in whatever role we're gonna put in it? So if you're a team that's a contender and you've already got a franchise player like is Jalen Brown going to be happy Being the 1a 1b to that franchise player. There was some concern about that from the teams that I've talked to like Just just looking at these teams looking at it from the outside saying well, he's got a Seems like he's got a great thing there like they want a championship a couple of years ago They've been wildly successful on some level. He clearly wants more and he was obviously happy with what happened last year as he said on his Twitch stream That gave some teams that I talked to a little bit of hesitation like we've we're trying to build some now The Celtics want a player that want a couple of first round picks if we're not certain we're getting this guy a Happy verse of this guy for the next four years. Well, we're gonna hesitate a little bit on this the other thing And this goes back to what I said at the beginning This happened fast. This happened really fast. I talked to one team. I'm not gonna say who it is I talked to one team that absolutely made an offer to Boston for Jalen Browse a good team. They made an offer to Boston and I got I talked to this person in that front office after the deal with Philadelphia was consummated and they were stunned Mostly because they knew their offer wasn't very good But they told me this person told me that the offer would have gotten better like that They were like Raptors testing the fence here. Raptors is not a hint. There wasn't Toronto But they were they were they were pro they didn't move their Jalen Brown. I did their thing But they were kind of probing to see how low can they go look nobody's gonna come at you with their best offer right away, especially when the perception is that You're trying to make a deal and you're desperate to get out of there like you've got to show people that you've got Some stomach here like you've got to show teams that you are willing to either go into the season with Jalen Brown or that Give off the perception now. You do have other offers. They're going to you've got to create a market for a player of this type And this team's first this team told me is like look we made them an offer this person told me they thought their offer was better than what the Celtics took anyway, but they they told me they made an offer and if they said gone on a little bit longer, they would have Beefed up that offer and had hands that offer to make it a little bit better. This person was was really surprised. And I don't think he's the only one that was surprised, he certainly wasn't the only one. That how was surprised they were that the Celtics took Paul George his God awful contract and two first round picks in exchange for Jalen Brown. - One of the explanations that I got was, if you look at Jalen and he just came in sixth in the MVP and if we get back to full form Tatum, he's never gonna have these numbers in that pairing. And he'll have one last year on the deal that imagine if you're running this back in a year. If this is how bad the offers are now, what's that market gonna be like for him in a year? And I, it was a different team. So I was kind of pushing back 'cause they were in favor of it. They probably don't like Jalen Brown a ton. And they were in favor of like, you can't bring them back. It's kind of a pain in the ass. He's gonna be even worse with this, you know, like, you might as well just move on. And the deals are probably gonna get worse considering what this guy just did. I don't know. I mean, again, it's all of us trying to understand it, but that was at least one position that I was given. - I think that, look, there's a lot of focus being on how this season ended with Boston. You know, they get to the playoffs, they could beat in the first round. It's a hideous ending to a very average Philadelphia team. But from what I've been told, the data points that the Celtics have been looking at have been more about the 24-25 season, which was a good season, but obviously one that ended badly against the New York Dicks. Like, to them, the people I've talked to, the warning signs that they were looking at were more based on that season. But they believe they needed some kind of change and that it wasn't going to get measurably better. I just don't know how you can do a deal like this and make a coherent believable argument that there is a pathway to get measurably better. Like, maybe you're right. The offers weren't gonna get better than they were right now for Jalen Brown. Maybe, maybe you're right. I think you are that the numbers were going to decline, that any tension that exists, and the tension was gonna go up no matter what, based on this off season. But any tension that previously existed was only going to get worse. To me, that still doesn't justify doing a deal like this for the kind of return that they got. Like, nothing, nothing, I've had kind of these debates where it's like, I'm hearing what you're saying. I get it, but I don't get it. And look, what I do, and you can tell me if you agree with this 'cause it's in the water supply that filtration is cheap and private equity sucks and maybe all those things ultimately turn out to be true. I don't believe that's fundamentally at play here. Like, they cut salaries last year because they should have. 'Cause they weren't a championship team and there are real basketball reasons to get under these tax aprons. I don't know how you look at this deal for Jalen Brown, Paul George, and say it's a financially motivated decision other than Paul George has one less year left on his contract. They're still paying a pile of money next year and below a pile of money next year. That doesn't change because of this contract. So the one thing I guess I was convinced of in my conversations is that this is not financially motivated, but the basketball arguments have just been, in and outside the organization, have just been nonsensical to me and I don't buy 'em one bit. - Enjoy your holiday, man. Thanks for doing this. - You got it. (upbeat music) (soft music)