Inside London’s Restaurant Scene with Tom Parker Bowles

After the French Revolution, of course, when all the Tofs had their heads lopped off, there were a lot of out-of-work chefs. So they all came over the channel and came to work for the Royal Family. I think we should all be obsessed with how they do the Southern family. I think the Southern family is my favourite, with an obvious exception. Yeah. Is my favourite Royal? We very decided there'd be no drinking in the house or that caused most of the chefs to throw themselves off the parrots. But it was such a scene, the Caprice of the '90s, and it was open till 12, and it was Mark Hicks was cooking there. But when you get into London as a hundred different nationalities cultures coming together, that's what makes me very proud to be in London at 2. Hello and welcome to The Luxury Dispatch, the podcast that reveals the refined in the rare, people items and stories that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain, and today it's bibs on, table man is honed, and silverclosh is highly polished. Today we're discussing the rise of the London, fine dining and restaurant scene. London has long been a city that eats well, but in recent years it has become something more than that. It is a global crossroads of flavour, technique and tradition, with the old guard of grand restaurants that come to flee alongside Boldenew Cumbers, and where some of the most exciting food in the world is being cooked within a few square miles of each other. To help us make sense of it all, I'm joined by Tom Parker-Bulls, food writer, critic, and one of the most knowledgeable and entertaining observers of what London is eating and why. Tom, welcome and good luck for living up to the pressure of the introduction. Well, thank you very much for coming on, and I've brought my dog more along. Oh, welcome more to it. I'm probably the first dog on the luxury discussion. Is it well, well, what are you on? I'm probably the worst dress person you've had on this podcast so far. So I apologise to all your very, very pure and aesthetic viewers and listeners. I like the tweed. The tweed, which I bought, I was telling you, in Scotland, in a fantastic tailor, I walked in with my friend who was getting a beautiful Scottish velvet coat, mate. He's Scottish. And they sort of, in that wonderful way, tellers do incredibly polite, but I was wearing a linen version of this, where they call it a work jacket, I think it is, because they fit everything in. They let me up and down and sort of say, "Oh, it's going to be interesting in this." I think they were so appalled, you know, that I didn't want to buy suit. So anyway, they're doing these and it's sort of half-smart, but I think I can still make anything look sharp, me. No, well, you're very welcome, be the way. I like, do you write tellers, they make suggestions. They do as a new viewer. A wise to follow them off, and I think I'll try to, anyway. They know. So, food. The London restaurant, seemed for me, is a fascinating thing, because people were describing this sort of very cosmopolitan, lots of international influences and stuff. But it must have started at a time when there wasn't access to international influence. And so, can we go back to that and think about the sort of nascent years of restaurants and the idea of a restaurant? I mean, obviously, as we all know, the restaurant has started in Paris, you know, the restaurant, and it was sort of a start-up, sort of bowl of soup or whatever it was. But if you think that London has always been an international city, it's always been a hub of trade, of spices, of things coming in from all over the world. You look back, for example, for a dish like fish and chips, which those sort of bull-headed nationalist, sort of shouting, screaming about England for the English, that sort of rubbish. That is basically, that's a Portuguese Jewish dish. It came in with the Safari Jewish population, and they would be selling cold fish on the streets and chips of French. So, this great so-called British dish, this half-french, half-half-safari-b-Jewish, which always makes me feel as if I was a Jew. That's a great one. But really, the first street food, I mean, you're looking through, obviously, back 300, 400 years ago, the rich ate very well and the poor ate gruel. There wasn't a middle class as such, as we know. So, the rich had their chefs, and they ate in. And the poor would be on sort of gruel, or, you know, with a bit of salt, poor, whatever they get their hands on. But as time went on, you started getting the chophouses, the taverns, the chophouses, the places where you'd rest your horses, you know. And that would be very much a very meaty fare. There was a fantastic French one called Monsieur Miseau. I think it was about 16, maybe about 17, 20, 17, 20. And he came to England and he said, "This is wonderful. These puddings were every kind and beef, and, you know, they're all roast beef, and England and England's old roast beef." So, but they were very meat, they're very choppy and meaty and heavy, and quite male as well. Makes me think of Mr. and Mrs. Miggas as pie shopper. - What do you think about that? - Exactly. And these taverns, you know, it's taverns and chophouses, they were quite rowdy. You could get your ails and your meat, and you'd have a big lot of meat. Then, of course, they were the gentleman's clubs, which, you know, lost it out, which was, I suppose a place where one could go and eat if your chef was off or whatever it was. And they, as you were, they started white stuff, I think, as a coffee house or a chophouse. - Yeah, so they were set up as sort of gambling institutions and coffee houses. So people would go there and it was open to the public. - And intrigue and gossip, but they would be. - Yeah, exactly. - And would you get different groups? So there'd be wigs in one place and Tories in another place. - Exactly. - And scientists and other places. - And the interesting you mentioned about, if your chef is off, because it kind of gives the impression that ultimately, for a long time, fine dining was strictly for the home at one point. - Absolutely. There was no question. I mean, moving forward a little bit after the French Revolution, of course, when all the Tofs had their heads locked off, there were a lot of out of work chefs. So they all came over to the channel and came to work for the Royal Family. And especially if you think that Frank Attelli came to work for Queen Victoria. He disappeared. He was great confection and this great patissier and disappeared under some. And those says you really had to behave quite badly to be booted out, but he was booted out. It was all covered up. I couldn't find it in the archive quite why. But it was definitely dodgy. You think of. of great, the Karem. And then, of course, a scoffier, that old row. We always say, "Oh, a scoffier who created, of course, the battery to cuisine." And a great. Absolutely. Star. you know, I wouldn't use the word. But a scoffier was. Absolutely obsessed with celebrities. He'd always been naming sort of Peach Melbourne, often, any Melbourne. But. But the seventh. Cess with the seventh. And ever since, ever since, was this. I think we should all be obsessed with that with the seventh, frankly. Oh, ever since, to me. To me, it's my favourite. With an obvious exception. Yeah. Is my favourite role. He was a man of. God, Gantz, you're an appetite. Yeah. And of course, you know, he. His. Queen Victoria was a great eater as well. Everyone pretended that Queen Victoria. Oh, she ate like a daintily burnt. As she did. There's a wonderful book. called the. The Greedy Queen, which is. She ate fast, as well. Very, very fast. So what happened to this? You know, if you're sitting there, and all these old buffers are the court, what would happen to the food in those days. When it moved, when service moved from service to the front seat, which was everything put into the middle when everyone shared. Yeah. to service to the house where you stood, like, the way we have it now, where everything delivered in different courses. So the Queen was sitting, she was a gobbler, as our uncle said. One of those texts. And she. And the food would be put down. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. She'd eat it, and of course, it was. You know, if she's sitting with the court, there might have been 80-100 people. So the people at the end, you know, by the time she put her knife aforked down, it was whisked away. So you had to eat very, very fast to get anything down you. But these were very lavish affairs. You know, dinners were 12 to 14 courses, lunch, eight to 10, and very, very French. So going back to the idea of Oak Quasine in the house, it was always in the house, and the great families, the other way, the Devonches, all the Rothschilds, all the. You know, they all swaps chefs, you know, sort of how wonderful and. And so you. It wasn't until the age of the great hotel, of the Savoy, of the Ritz, that the chefs became these characters behind it. And of course, says our Ritz and Escoffier, they were two rogues. They were always nabbing money and taking back handers. But Escoffier, you know, he. How to have 2,000 ways with salt, you know, you look at. Look at Escoffier's culinary guide, you know, which is fantastic. But of course, that's how the whole kitchen came about. Escoffier created the battery to cuisine, you know, with your head chef, at the top, going all the way down to your projure at the bottom. So, yes, so it started, grand food was very much royal aristocrats and whoever had money. Maybe think of it as a P.D. greenhouse with that, it's anotoli, or. Anotoli. You know, the bits were sort of like angels crying on his tongue. Yeah, yeah. And of course, you know that bit when I think. It's not the scale. It was one of the great punishments on. Yeah, the dish out is. You're not allowed his food. That sort of sense of like betrayal and absolute anguish of not being able to taste this particular dish. And he, and Bertie, of course, was, you know, and having. And he's one art coach. And he's one art coach at night. And having written his one article for what the gentleman wears today, I think it was all. He's one art, he's so. And allately proud of Bertie's one piece. He wrote for on Agatha's magazine. And Dali's magazine, anyway. But yes, Anatole was one of those great figures. Yeah. And great, you know, we're now moving into Victorian Edwardian times. But I'm back to Edward VII. He was astonishing. He didn't drink very much. He used me little, but. The Edwardian breakfast was something. I think of a great beauty. It was. It was silver-chafing dishes, 12, 15, 16 of them. You know, sat there with little burners underneath. And there would be. Scorops and there would be kidneys. And there would be lots of devil, devil bones. There would be. In season, there would be cold partries and grouse. There would be eggs of every kind you wanted. Always on the side, a tongue, a couple of capons. Yeah. A baron of beef to help. - This is so much like that. The pic mic that Ratti has. - Oh. - It is. - It's made in the. - That's one long sentence, which I love most of all. And Ginger Beer and Blarly Blarly Blar. So that was his breakfast. And what one of his sort of queries was you said? Well, the king doesn't really eat breakfast. He's a sort of toast and coffee man, unless he's going racing or shooting. Now, he did a lot of racing. - You're not me. - Not quite as much as his son, to be honest. I'm George V. - But George V was an absurdly. - And it did get to the point once where the Duke of Windsor's son was driving back. And they got something like 1,800. - One of his friends shoots, probably in Norfolk. And he did say George V said to the Duke of Windsor, then he said he did think we went a bit far. - It took a bit far. - But again, George, so you'd go back to Edwin. Edwin had his breakfast. Then at 11's, he'd always have a man with a flask of turtle soup. The turtle soup takes 36 hours to prepare. It involves a haunch of beef, lots of turtles, the recipe starts with, you know, get one fat, lively turtle, flip it open. And of course, we can't eat green turtles now. Very endangered. And probably because of all the toss-reating, all those things. But this would have that, or half a lobster to keep them going. Then there would be lunch. And lunch you'd expect whether you're in Bucking Palace, Sandering and Bamoral, or aboard the Victorian Albertist, Steemio, which on heavy seas with a big, you know, coal oven, it would go out the whole time. So you'll like pie, or whatever, as your cotlet, Daniel. You know, it'd be very difficult. And there was a wonderful guy called Gabriel Schumi, who was the Royal Chef Swiss, who starts on the Queen Victoria as an underchef, and went all the way through and ended up as Royal Chef to Queen Mary. I think it likes to house, without any excess. Anyway, he obviously, as is, was the way of authorised memoirs of members of the household, very oily, you know, no one could do any wrong. But Queen Mary is a great gourmol. And, but, but back to Edward. Fabulous looking woman, by the way. She's like a shipping full sale. I mean, she was my nips and actually if you read all those wonderful Hugo Vickers, but she wasn't the kleptomaniac because there's this old myth that she can go, very nice, very nice, fabulous, anything. And of course, you have to pack it in the back because the Queen had asked for it. And she wasn't like that at all. But she was a real, real gourmol. And of course, of the seventh son, George the fifth was, was completely this interest and food. He was a naval man. He was a happy little ship's, you know, hard tack and, you know, and and sort of he liked curries. And his favourite thing was Bombay Duck, you know, the sort of dry. So his taste horrible. Yeah completely different from Edward the seventh, rich food and love. And it was always that mix with Victoria almost between the oats, you know, state bankers are still in French menus and still because it was the language of sophistication when it comes to culinary things. And of course, the great chefs were all over by this stage. And the hearty, you know, they like the roast beef and the curries and the pies, of course, shooting lunches were very British and very hearty. And the pastries and the pastries and the certain, of course, tea is the one thing that's still to this day. Everything stops at five for tea, wherever you are. And this wasn't just a cup of tea. It's, you know, sandwiches, two cutting cakes, scones, potted shrimps, maybe, you know, sort of exbened it. You know, it was a full feast. You have breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner and dinner was everything, you know, his favourite dish, Edward the seventh was sniping, you know, this tiny, you know, absolutely buggered to bone. You think it's bad to do a chicken try. So you have a, what happened, you get the sniping, it'd be deboned. Then a bit of caviar, I mean, not caviar, but a flygwarp, we put it on top. It'll be wrapped in cool fat, the stomach lining fat, grilled, taken out, covered in a truffle and a deer a source. And he would eat, you know, 20 of them, because they were one bite things. All partridge, you know, it was about how beautiful the food looked in those days. So one of the great dishes that Edward the seventh light, to be served at his coronation, obviously, it was postponed his coronation because he was very ill. So all this caviar to be given to all the, all the poor houses, which were, they are quite interesting, but all the jellies were kept and there was a quail dish where you deboned the quail, take the head off and then put it back together again, stuff it with a flygwarp, put the head back on, but there'd be egg white eyes and truffle for the blacks of the eyes. And then they would be, they would be, poached and then roasted, you know, sort of finished and then they'd be served on a huge granita of pineapple. And of course pineapple was in those days a way of saying, I'm very rich because a pineery, you had to heat the whole way through the year. And so, you know, the new though reach would get a pineapple and put it on the table until it rot it, you know, it was this sign of real and you see across all the estates, you still see the pineapple sort of. Often on paintings and stuff, the pineapple will be there as a sort of, because the family were like, you have to include that though. It's a sign of wealth and it and, but the, the rules didn't have to do that so much because they were, they were the very top. But the habits of the royals and the, I guess the things that they liked often bled into sites, so the clothes that they wanted to wear or. Yeah. So was that similar with food and so did what they were wanting to, court then bleed to the clubs, which then kind of had some sort of trickle down. I think the clubs had their own sort of food and it hasn't changed, which is basically school food. Well, the idea was that at the time was that when the aristocracy started going into these coffee houses initially it wasn't just tofs. Yeah. It was everybody could go in, but it got taken over because the dust were able to gamble more and were able to do that. Yeah. And then they kind of made it for themselves, but because they did that, they wanted better art. They wanted better furniture and they wanted better food. And so they pushed the proprietors to be like, you need to make more of an effort. And so it's just interesting to think about whether that when they would speak to the proprietors, they would say, look, the palace are doing this. We should probably be doing something similar or whether as you say kidney and bacon straight up, that's what we're going for. And so you think that the house, because when you think about cooking for the royal family, especially in those days, the sort of principles, they were only six to 12. Then of course you had the different, it was a class system very much stratified in the form. You'd have the private sectories, the equaries, ladies and waiting. They would all be sort of upper class. And they would eat with the royals or probably the same as the royals with a couple of exceptions. Then you'd move down a level and you'd move right down through levels, but the great advantage of working at the palace is especially in Victorian times, is that everyone got a lot of booze and a lot of meat, which was not particularly prevalent, especially if you didn't have any money in Victorian times. I mean, people used to dread Victorian ever the seventh coming to stay for the weekend because it was banged up. They're good broke. They'd have to have and they would all out do each other. Some of these poverty tofs couldn't afford it. We had Alice Lockstone on to talk about Staley Holmes and that was part of the conversation. They had to make the houses amazing in case royals came. Yes, the roles did come. They had to sort of basically sell up because it was so expensive. It was a three day stay with Edward with his entourage and they did travel in some style, but he was great friends going back to restaurants. Of course, every seven to go to Paris a lot. They had a lot of say admirers. He loved Paris. He loved Maxims, I think. He loved, was Maxims a must've been going. Of course, he loved scoffics. He was always naming dishes after him. Or Queen Alexander, his wife. There were many, there was a great cherry dish. It was that way in Alexander or whatever it was. He loved this food and of course what he ate would become very, you know, it would be breathlessly recorded in the newspapers and the social diaries at the time. He could make things I would have thought because if you think in those days monarchy, it wasn't far removed from. Victoria was the last of the great emphasis. But Edward said still he was a mixture of. He was just everything. He was a celebrity. He was a royal. He was a rockster. And he was fantastic. This is what I found. There's a brilliant Sarah Bradford biography of him that completely changed my view. Because everyone thought he was a dilletante shaggy. He held it for long as well. People just assume it was a sort of. He held you together. He held, especially the Kaiser and the. I think he was, you know, in terms of eating. But then of course you get to Georgia 5th, then you have Well-Ball 1. And of course, Creamery decided there'd be no drinking in the house or that caused most of the chefs to throw themselves off the parapets. And you only have to have one course for breakfast, I think maybe two, to push. And it was meat any twice a week and the Georgia 5th was. He used to disappear into his study at night, you know, after dinner, after his brother, the bland, grim dinner. Because the royal family had to lead from the funk. You forget there was rationing in Well-Ball 1, 2. And he locked the door and you'd hear this sort of. According to his son, the jukewins, you'd hear this sort of opening of a cabinet and a sort of clink. And he'd have his glass of pour, you know. Because he thought it was Lloyd George who made him do it. With the temperance movement, he said, "Well, I can't open to a Welsh accent." And he did it and they were all really annoyed by it. But apart from Creamery, who took it very seriously. But going back to restaurants, I'm. You know. He certainly, in Paris, had a freedom that he didn't have in London. Yet he went to the theatre, you know, Lillie Langtrie, and he had so many mistresses. - Yeah. - And Mara's and Showgirls and the rest of it. When he went to the opera, he had his private dining room behind. Of course, everything would be bought the same cutlery, the plates, the flowers, the vases, the cut glass, and it would be laid out for an opera dinner of 14 courses. Isn't it a piece of lobster and prawns and asparagus and chicken salad? And I just, the lavishness of, you know, - It's amazing. - And the best of all with the Asquit lunches, where a fleet, and this was very early days for the Daimler's, I think, were. Do you have a Daimler? It was, it made a bit of rolls. But they'd all, this fleet would come down from Windsor, with all, and it would be a special Asquit dining staff, you know. And that would be Provis eggs and asparagus and, you know, soups, cold soups and fishy swars, and then followed by the cutlets and the fricassets and then the puddings. And this was, it was eating, unlike anything you've seen before. It was just incredible. But I think, if we go back to the Great London restaurants, I think that rules and wilthons are with fight about which is the odd. I think rules has been in the same site. - Yes, it has been, because wilthons moved around a lot. - Wilson's moved, right? - But I like the wilthons backstories. And so it's 1742. You have George Wilton, who had, it was a fishmonger. - Yes. - And then he had his oyster barrow on hay market, because hay market was basically an enormous market where people would sell, believe it or not, hey. Because I mean, your Piccadilly was, I believe, the pig of Piccadilly is about pigs. And they would keep pigs, so they would need things like hay for livestock all over there. - And it was quite loose. I'm a flashy discipline off into it. - Yes, absolutely. Very much. - Very much. - Royal flashes where he does it. - Yes. - That's one way. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. The fun of, because his coffee house is getting busted by the police. - Yes, exactly. - Yes. - And then I wrote this, I say, this is from wilthons. In the late 18th century, hay market was a thriving market that sold hay and straw for local livestock. This lively market attracted traders offering a great variety of wares, including matches, buttons, songbirds, which I don't know if that means it's an early type of auto land, or whether they were live songbirds. Ballads, hot heels, sheepstrotters, and mould wine. - I mean, this point in hay market, the London Street food scene was incredible. If you read Henry Mayhew, London, the London Pore, which is a classic sort of Victorian thing of a sort of learned type going to sort of, and actually it's actually got some humanity in it as well. It talks about the match girls and the button girls and the selling. But the street food, you know, or the pies in the eel pies, in the oysters in the barrel. - These are oysters, like, because people think of oysters as quite boys. - They were, they were, they were cheap as chips and pickled, and they were coming in from Essex and West Mersey, and they were cheap, they were street food. But this was the time of the pickled pigs feet and the oysters, and the pies and just all this wonderful. We had a very, very strong street food culture there, like Mayfair, back a bit. That was a den of a nicotine, a very right single way. - Hammyard was a place where they would, Rich would give a Christmas, the, the poor would get their sort of spare ham. - Oh really? So I love these things. - I'm boxing there. - But so back to what I was saying, he was a oyster monger. - Yes, sorry. So he was, he was a oyster monger. And then the, they decided, the sort of rice was on the wall in terms of where things were going and decided to sort of set up shop. And then his son William took over in 1805, which of course also is the year of the Baton Trafalgo. We love Nelson, very good. - No. - The big fan. And it kept moving around. They kept finding new spots on King Street, but it was all in Mayfair. There's so in St Jameson. That sort of little area. They always hung homes there. And then in 1840 was when they got their alcohol license, and that is when it kind of became a bona fide restaurant. - And it was bomb, the story of the handrails, wasn't it, when? - Yeah. - When, I can't remember quite what it was, it was bombed or something. - Anything bombed in London is probably not hip-hop, because it was every bombed spot. - Yeah, every bombed spot. - But there is something about Wilson Simon, but as a child, it was one of the, like Mark's Club, that Mark's Club is going to my grandfather. It was like a different one. I think we went in about 11 or 12. - Yeah. - And it was the first taste. That encourages, I mean, we're jumping ahead now, of something very different, you know? - Yeah. - But Wilson's is one of the great. People talk about, oh, there's no British food. Well, you've got Wilson's on the one hand and rules in a different way. And you've got St John on the other. But that's a whole different thing. But Wilson's is anyone who says, oh, I've never, you know, British food. Usually Americans, you know, British food is rubbish. He's okay, fine, they come to Wilson's. Of course you will, it's only place in London, or look at what you can get cold consume. - Yeah, correct. - Which I love, God, very Victorian and Warrion Tases. I love Savory Gellies. I love Urfongi Leib which you can get at Maison Francois. My father's a big fan of Scotchwood Coc. - Oh, they do. - Which I don't. - I love Antifuses. - If you say anything, is anyone, he doesn't know what Scotchwood Coc is. It is basically scrambled eggs on toast with Antifuses. - Oh, it's fantastic. And it little, I mean, we could go do a whole thing on my favorite course, the Savory. - Is it? - Because the Edwardians, it was Ambrose Heath, wrote a whole book on Savories. And he caused it that sort of, that blessed relief, I think it's blessed Savory relief before the frippries are pudding. And it's that course in between pudding where you have your Welsh red bit, you have your angels on horseback, cheese soufflé. It's, I'm not sweet, too. So you only really get them at place like St John, Wilton's and the London clubs. But the Savory course, you know, and the French were pulled by this Savory coming before the cheese, you know, they'd be the next recourse. But there's a whole book and some of these, and they're basically salty, quite peacan. And they meant to stimulate the thirst again, so you can settle back down into your port or whatever it is, more come here, sit down, it's a good go. - But it's interesting because we, but it's also, we did have a sweet tooth. Sugar was a big deal. - It was fusion. It built many, many fortunes, or yes. - Yes, you're not really, you know. - Not a lot of fabulous talk about that now, but. But yes, and of course, it was obviously a product of slavery. You know, it was all the sugar plantations, but of course, we used sugar beets as well as what pop called, finding the West Indies. Norfolk and so on. - Well, exactly. But it's funny thing that, you know, you're going back to London restaurants, we assume these restaurants were there forever. And it just wasn't like that. You either ate on the street or you ate at home. And that was it. - Wilton's rate is now, was an open to the 1980s, but it does look like it's a time portal. - It is. And also, when they changed the dress code, I used to quite like it because I hate dress code. Either wear a suit, fine. The ritz, any of the clubs, easy. I liked the thing of dressing up for lunch. I love how much, how many coos, how many affairs have been done in those booths. - Yeah. - Because of course, Margaret, that she used to love it, he has all time. It was where the Tories, Nicholas Somme still goes there, a lot. - Yeah. - It was where, the office above is Rishi Sienaac's office. So there's always a sort of an ex-prometrist serial set of security outside of. - It never, Rishi is. - Outside of Wilton's. - Rishi never struck me as a great trenchman, I must say. - No, but I would like to thought that actually, in their lunch break, that's where they go. That's sort of a nice thinking. - But it is, it is such a treat, still Wilton's. And it's so beautiful. And they always, I used to think it was one of them. Because every time I walk in, welcome home. So I thought, "Cos, it's just me." - But they said to everyone. - Yeah. - But it is, what I think of, re-Wilton's, and that sense of an old English dining experience. When I think of that, what I actually think of is your, and the much missed establishment that your uncle and my godfather had greens. - Greens was. - And greens was. - It was the most intimidating place in the world to die when you were a teenager, 'cause that's when he used to take me to lunch there. - And you used to sit in a booth, there's booths of course. - His booth, yeah. - At the back. 'Cause my uncle had that one just by the stair. - Yeah, yeah. - And he'd sit there and what, your godfather had one two down sort of thing. Or was he next door? - Is my godfather his uncle? - Oh, god almighty, sorry, I thought there was another one. He said, "How are Uncle Simon?" And he's a, I absolutely, and he's the first to admit, he doesn't really like food that much. He likes, so good. And he always have a glasses on, so I said, "It doesn't move much." But he was sit and he'd be watching over the whole restaurant. He's like Jeremy King and Gavin Rankin, the old-school proprietor. - The patron monarchy, see. - Exactly. And, you know, Scotts, I'm exceptionally excited about Simpsons. - Yes, me too. - Really, really excited. - Okay, so Simpsons actually really great. - Oh, with them, yeah. - That enters the restaurant. So, what was Simpsons? Was it a sort of an idea of a kind of mass dining experience? Or was it meant to be a kind of another sort of club? - I think Simpsons slightly democratized everything. - Yeah. - And that it was much bigger. - Yep. - It wasn't a club. And it came about, I mean, Simpsons was like, "Hey, I can't remember, I should know from my PR." So, in '18, I think it was the 1880s. - Okay, that's what I got in my head. - So, if you think that coincided with the same time as Mr. Pooter, you know, Dariv and nobody, George and Weed and Gross Smith, - Yeah. - Really endlessly hysterical satire of the new middle class and how they mind. And I think Mr. Pooter would have really, you know, would have been a doubt and he would have gone to Simpsons. - I don't know. often make jokes. My favourite split when he goes to Lord Mezz, he goes to Lord Mezz dinner, he's really annoyed that there's one of his sort of neighbours who's a I think a costum hung or something, he's furious, he's listed higher and they keep spelling his name wrong in the local paper, Mr Snoot, Mr Loot or whatever it is and he keeps writing his furious letters in. But that would have been I think you think back to those days and it would have been expensive, but this is the rise of the middle class. So it would have been an opportunity for people who wouldn't have gone into the clubs, who wouldn't have gone perhaps to Wilton's or might have gone to Wilton's. So do you think that people wanted to be in a sort of a nice environment, a sort of plush sort of upscale environment, like going to these places is a treat? Absolutely, you know, and all those people in their bowler hats coming from the city and you think of of those city institutions, sort of feeding people, sweetings, that's been around for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These were there to, it was mainly men they were feeding and Simpson's originally didn't allow women in the main dining room. Really? Okay. There was ladies room upstairs and so it was incredibly male, incredibly middle aged, you know, it was lots of claret because the British always loved claret. We've also had that unique relationship with Bordeaux, you know, especially when it was, you know, they were our only friends at one point and you know, through various marriages and stuff. And we didn't pay taxes, for example, on Bordeaux and all the rest of it. Actually, Paul was another one, but it's Simpson's was I think it was a slightly aspiration, I say, the thing that you wouldn't, you might find I think they would have all been at the Ritz, the Royal Tofs, from their clubs. But I think Simpson's was like many great London restaurants. It took everyone in as long as you were a man had some money and you know, you tipped your carver and all the rest of it. And I'm very excited and Uncle Simon at Greens, what he wanted to do was create a club that wasn't a club, although it did sort of turn into a club, but there always be Ronnie Corbett Margaret, that actually, the mother, you know, but you know, and Simon was always dressed in an amazed tie and a well cut suit. And you go for lunch with him and you know, he would have his goosebumps, but there was Haddock Parkables named after my grandfather. Yeah. I just love going in to have a dozen, dozen natives in a sausage restaurant. Sockstrap. Sockstrap. That was that was always the thing that I had because it was the only thing I was sort of confident enough to eat. It was, it was, but it was a club within a club and still to this day, I'm really need fantastic thrillers at the moment. But I can't, but about a, it's about Moss had, it's like what gave you a long and he's a sort of picture of a Daniel Silver's writer and a brilliant thriller. And anyway, the art of story is also in the pay of Moss had has a, has an art because you know, it's the middle of the art world, has an office at Greens and they spent endless long lunches in Greens. I kept meaning to say to Simon about this sort of, this is sort of, it is a hardcore Moss had agents, but they're also picture of stories and Ray elegant. But yes, but that's very much in the addition of a gentleman's club, wasn't it? Yes, it was, yes. And actually, to be honest, I love Maison Farnswell that's taken this place. It has a scene all of its own Maison Farnswell. You get a lot of the old people from Greens going back there, you always see, yeah, the art world sort of luminaries or the art world, how they sort of, you know, Davis Snowden's and Henry Windham's and you know, I have a bracket, that sort of gang, because it's next to Simon Kriste's and stuff. But I think back to Wilderness, it was, Wilderness was and still is quite expensive. You couldn't, I'd love to go there every day, but I'd be number one dead of Liverpool, you know, Gout. Gout. But they do the pudding trolley and they do the roasts and you can still get hot gammon and roast gammon and. Okay, so, okay time, so. Did hotels, we're talking about homes, you've got your odd standards like Wilton's or rules and things that are old restaurants, but ultimately hotels, homes, were ruined in the roost. At what point did people decide I'm going to dispense of the sort of clubby, probably sort of royal feel of restaurants and create an enterprise that is fully democratic and doesn't have to live up to a specific English, sort of this old English standard. Well, I think the first thing with hotels and you think of clarages, the Savoy, of course, I think Savoy was the first to have running on the sweet barterms, I think everyone had an on the sweet barter, which was a huge, huge thing. But the whole point of that was that women could have lunch with, whoever, your mother, your grandmother, your aunt, your mistress, you know, that made it. And also French was seen as, you know, this very elegant and you had all these great chefs cooking at the rates and at all these places and, you know, clarages, oh, stop it now, sit down, you'll be particularly annoying, sit down. And French say dogs, have no terriers, have absolutely no, sit down, good girl, naughty girl. But it was the democratisation, but it wasn't really that democratic, you saw quite a lot of money to go there. What you'd find pubs were very much a place, you know, to eat for the so-called normal person. The problem with London always was, was that you had the Lions Corn Houses, of course, of course, very important. And you had a wimpy a bit later, okay, but that was different. And you had the pubs. Then you had the other end, or you had the very expensive hotels, which did French food, so how the beginnings of an Italian movement, I suppose, around about the 40s and 50s, you know, you had that great, the spaghetti tree, it's fantastic to look about all these different Italians who came in and did various restaurants, but it was still French for the roost. And there was no such things like Michelin stars at this point. Absolutely not. Where there critics were there. There was a rather wonderful critic, and he was kind of, for life of his name, he was called Colonel Wilfred, so and so, of the first and second Bengal Lancers. And he would go around and write these very- -Skinners horse, exactly. -Yeah, exactly. And he would write very trenchant reviews of place. And of course, there was a Stina, very swami. -Yeah. -Because the first wave of immigration from the subcontinent actually came, not just a partition, but before that. Of course, there was a small Indian community, as there was a small Jewish community, Turkish community, in London, way, way before you think of partition at the rest of it. And of course, some of those relics of the Raj would bring back their men's servants and their man's servants. So we also had a slight Indian tradition. But yes, it was French food. French food, you either ate posh French food, clubbing English food, or it was the pub in the Lions King. -I presume that's those interwar years. And then after probably, I guess, rationing finished in the 50s, people were like, well, we now, we're there space to create restaurants, as we know them today. Yes, but still, you'd have Conran, I suppose, 50s, 60s doing beast rows and chicken bricks. And the King's road started kicking off, and you'd have, it wasn't Kamalari, but it was before that, that was sort of those two Italian restaurants down in World's End that became very trendy. But there still wasn't. London was known for being good at the high end and good at low end, but nothing in the middle. And then I think after rationing, I think people were coming from America and just being a port, even in the hotels and the best hotels, Brown Windsor Soup. And because the hotels had slightly different rules for rationing, you could go in there and eat slightly better. But still, it was a fairly glum grim place to it. I speak to my parents about it. Of my father, London in the 50s, even the club food, you weren't expected. We had this hangover from the Victorians to enjoy food, to see sensuality in food, to see pleasure in something as bass as food was seen as not right. Now the Victorians, of course, were great hypocrites, behind closed doors, God knows what went on. But in public, it was all about covering up the table legs of just, you know, the hympli-de-exact. And I think there was still that hangover, certainly among the majority of the upper middle classes and upper classes that food, it was a foreign thing to enjoy food. And God forbid you were like the French. You know, they were their sources and they would happily eat it. And the really enlightened aristocrats would have the French chefs. But the majority of this sort of work would be eating there. It would be roast on a Sunday, whistles on a Monday, shepherd's par on a Tuesday. It was my great grandfather who was a food writer called Pee Morton-Shand. And he railed and he went to go and live in France. He wasn't the greatest father to my grandfather, but he was a fantastic, outspoken writer, beautiful and a great rhyme writer as well. And also he was a, you know, a great, he was, Benjamin was his sort of disciple. He was a massive fan of modernism, you know, the Bauhaus movement and all the rest of it. Then of course died hating modernism, saying he'd gone too far. And it was all awful. And he started, he started the architectural review. So it was this polymath, polymath of the thing. But he moaned about the roast and and it was the death of British cuisine because it would just be recycled all week, you know, and just got in the same thing every single day. So there was still very much and rationing we were on our knees after the war. So you know rationing finishes in 55. Well one of the things that weren't rationing was game. Game. Of course. So if you had a state, that was fine. Yeah. And if you lived in the country and you had a gun, you had your rabbit. So the country did a lot better. Fish and chips were never on rationing. Right. And they got us through I think a lot of the time. But it was a pretty dreary place to eat. And if you think of Raymond Postgott, who styled off of the bad food guy because he was so appalled the country house hotels and the regional restaurants with the same browners as soup. And then you get a him. He was a pioneer of Raymond Postgott. He was the only good food guy. He would go around the country, studiously with his note, but jotting down in places. It was this revolution at the end of the 50s, between the 60s. It was Joyce Morenoet at the Carved Angel. It was George Perry Smith at Horan the War and Bath. It was Francis Coulson at Charo Bay in Cumbria. These were people of Binter France who'd read Elizabeth David who thought this is not on in the 50s and beginning the 60s. We should not be eating like this. They began a process of which you can see to this day the likes of Simon Hawkins' 'Surn' Alice Little, 'Rolly Lee', Nico, the 'Rue Brothers'. Again, it was all French. Yes, of course, because Le Gavrach was one of the big and very important and recently closed for some reason. Recently closed, I think Michel Juniors just said it wasn't viable, which is very sad. The food was, I mean, Albert did the Gavrach. Michel had the water side and this was before Marco, before Gordon. These were, and of course it started. Albert started, or was it Michel, as Sopita Cazelitz, Chef. Once again, it was still very much the vestiges of all the great chefs still worked for the rich and the aristocracy and he put the money up or some of the money up to start the Gavrach. But interesting with the Gavrach's that despite the fact that it was you know, the French arriving, making a big impact on the British restaurant food scene, etc. It was still, and certainly where it wasn't up at Brook Street, if you walked past it, you wouldn't notice. And in a way that, for example, if you open a restaurant today, you wanted to make a bit of noise. This was almost again in that clubway. The chefs, even Albert, was, the chefs were behind closed doors in this noisy clanking, steaming hell-like atmosphere. And of course front of house were the ones you'd open. One says those two sort of doors would open and it was all silent and perfect. And Silvano, the greatest major, I think, of all time, apart from Jesus as the next generation. Jesus had all of Jesus, we were still there. From Leica Priest. From Leica Priest. And just to listen to one of the greats. But Silvano was one of the great majorities. In the days you could smoke in restaurants, you know, if some picked up a cigarette and the waiter wasn't able to light it within a second, if the glass was anything less than full. And it would be smooth. But he'd be stamping on the foot of the way to sing, "No, we know, we'll be going field these up." Yes, that's probably the thing. But here they were a fantastic team. And you think of, I suppose, there were things like the white elephant. And then you had the clubs, of course, didn't you? The sort of 20s, 30s, 40s clubs. But it still was not a restaurant town, London, at all. It wasn't particularly democratic. It wasn't a place where it was good food for all. Then even the 70s, despite the swing in the 60s and carnaby street, I think the quality of food wasn't brilliant. London was Britain was pretty poor in the 70s. And three day working weeks. And strikes. Yeah. And we totally enough at the same time, Mark Burley opening up place at Harry's Bar. And stuff like that. That was again the sort of, which I've heard a great story about the Queen Mum going to Harry's Bar, one point where she was around the back. And then when she was coming out, everyone saw her and everyone just sort of stopped and stood up as she was leaving, which I thought was rather much less. Mark Burley's a figure, because we're now moving into the Mark Burley era, if you talk about the 70s, and Abel's had far better food than it should have had. My father used to say that it was, I mean, there's obviously that famous chocolate moose. But the food, he was such a perfectionist, right down watching, whether it was the quality of the butter. He was a proper, I always forget there's four different stages, gourmet, gourmand. But he was atop, he would disappear off, you know, or oats have, obviously the great restaurants, the world like, especially on the mouth, he goes my two favourite restaurants, and I thought, a lot scolio and and and and adolfo. Now they are by no standard silver service, or but you'll have the likes of Mark Burley would have been going there. Maria Grazzi was his favourite actually, a bit further down the coast. But he transformed clubs. But only for the people who could become members of his club. And I was still quite exclusive. Yeah. And you still had to well, obviously ties in the rest of it. But Mark's club going back to the first time, they did a dish there, which was a boiled egg. And they'd hollow it out. So they would hollow out a boiled egg, scrambled the egg beautifully, lots of butter, put it back into it, be half scrambled eggs, half caviar. And we weren't allowed to obviously have that because you know, when we were 12, 13, 14, because even by the standards of, you know, a caviar was relatively cheap, it was extortion. Of course, you didn't see the prices if you were the guest. Yes. But for us, you know, with the staff and it was just the most amazing place. And Harry's bar was the same. And these were because he was such a perfectionist, but the food was just incredible. Now, if you travel with any regularity, and I suspect quite a few of you listening do, you'll know the slightly irritating ritual that happens every time you land somewhere new, the plane touches down, you switch your phone off airplane mode. And within about five seconds, your mobile provider politely informs you that using your mobile phone will now cost roughly the GDP of a small island nation. This is where saly comes in. Saly is an e-sim app that gives you instant internet access when you arrive in a new country without having to hunt down a local SIM card or a line, whatever questionable Wi-Fi happens to be floating around at the airport. You simply install it before you travel. Choose a data plan for your destination, as I did when recently flying to Los Angeles. And when you land, you're online immediately. It also comes with built-in security features like web protection and ad blocking. So you're browsing on a safer connection rather than relying on the occasionally dubious public networks you find in airports or hotels. In short, it's a rather elegant way to stay connected while traveling without the roaming fees. Download saly in the app store or by scanning the QR code on screen. Use code dispatch at checkout to get 15% off your first purchase. The details are in the podcast episode description box. Was there an issue there with anyone who wanted to open up a restaurant at that time? They were now competing because before they were competing against, you know, liver and bacon. Yeah. Well, so, you know, if a, if a, if a, if a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, or whatever, was in London, in central London, Mayfairson, James' is one, a banker even wanted to go to eat somewhere. They could choose a club or they could, if they wanted to do something nicer, they could choose a restaurant by this point. And the restaurants were like, well, we're competing against liver and bacon. We're not, you don't have a problem with that. A long comes mark. And suddenly, the game, the aunties is, is, is, is, is put up because there was that sort of, well, the Italian, obviously, we've always, we've had Italian synths, you know, starting a soho and moving out from soho to Chelsea. There's always been Italian. But the Italians like the Indians, the Chinese, but like all the great nations, culinary nations, have regularly adapting the food. So if you think of curry houses, for example, they're, they're about as Indian as I am, you know, the Madras is named off. It's just another thing, you know, they're, the Indians actually, many Bangladeshi cooks, funny enough, who, who, who started the curry, has, will adapt to our taste. So they've caught, I mean, Vindaloo is a go-and-dish, where pork, Vindaloo, wine and garlic. And it was, it's quite spicy, you know, it's got a lot of vinegar in it and it's got a lot of, but Vindaloo, you know, it's, it's complete to everything. It's made for our tastes, you know, the calmer, the blah, the blah, these are curries created for the English palate. And just as wonderful for it, you know, I love curry as much as I love regional Indian food, but very different things. But I think with, you know, Mark Burley, it is going to start, you know, when you go to Harry's Bar and eat, you know, the best, whatever it is, truffle risotto or, or, or the carpaccio, sitting in a room which is utterly beautiful with weight as all in white and, you know, drinking or bellini. And I think that is going to, you know, start filtering through. And when I was young in the 80s, my, my grandmother, those are the days, my grandmother used to have a permanent sweet in clarages, because it was so much easier, don't you know, to do anything. I think my great grandmother had one as well. So it's very much a family hotel. We used to go into the dining room to go and have dinner with my grandmother, who was the most wonderful person, very laid back. But we'd have to sort of dress up and there still be a string quartet and we don't have our spaghetti poronets underneath the cloche. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it was all, and the Coca-Cola would always come in those big heavy glasses. And, but we all grew up in restaurants like La Fontana, Mimo Di Isquia, Mimo Di Isquia was, Isquia, my parents, my grandparents, used to go on holiday, take my aunt and uncle and mother there in the 50s and 60s. And it was his wonderful island next to Capri. And I think, and I haven't been back for years, but Mimo came from there once, tried to get into my mother and asked her room in the middle of the night and my grandfather sort of, what, bopped him with his umbrella. Only my grandfather, the big and umbrella, to the south of Italy. But we all grew up going to Isquia for two weeks. So we had English food on the one hand and Italian, son of Italian, if you mean, we knew very, very well. We thought that was Italian food because it was tomatoes and the fish and the big, and so Mimo Di Isquia was this incredible restaurant. He opened it about 72. And he had pictures over the wall of him and Stallone or him and, you know, Tom Jones. And he'd be most Stallone. His fantastic character is retired back to Iskie and now big, bushy chest and a big medallion and then silk shirt, so black silk shirt, open to the name. And all the movie stars and nice men there, and they'd all come in and you'd have huge bowls of, you know, pasta, amazing ribs, funnily enough. And Roger Moore was there every night. Michael K. Miser the whole time. That whole bunch of the, well they call the German Street Orphans, the Duggy Hayward, Michael K. - Oh, right, yeah. - Damn, you know, they were all East End Boys, well. - I think it tram. - Johnny, but Johnny Gold, they were all there. So that was a real sceny place and you think of La Familia, you think of La Familia, - La Familia, it's La Randa, isn't it? - You laugh me a little bit, I still got that. - Yeah, it's great. - The one in Beechham Place with Mora, San Lorenzo. - Yeah. - So the Italians were very much a scene as well. Of the 70s and 80s, it was all, everything. - Were the Italians ever, did they ever do sort of, I mean, for one to a better phrase, luxury restaurants. Were they at the top end or were they always that kind of cosy enclave for people who wanted to just go have something really delicious? - They were English Italian on the whole because Harry's bar was probably, you know, - The only way I could, yeah, yeah, yeah. - The very best, but there would always be avocado and prawns on the menu, you know. And La Fontana, there was a huge area of E.B. Street, round Pimlico. And La Fontana was amazing, sort of, it was all sort of red velvet. And then the food was fairly average, most of the year until truffle season came in. And then he would make the most amazing, you know, sort of truffle pasta, sort of truffle everything on Carpaccio and had a very pretty daughter. But it was a real place you'd go and have spaghetti but it was of course spaghetti but it is the most English dish anyway, you know. Northern Italians always are pulled by spaghetti with a ragu sauce, you know. It doesn't stick on the sausage, it must be Italian. How do you tell you, not that it should never be, penny, it should never be spaghetti, but you could get spaghetti but it is, and you could get fish and white sauce. So no, there were very much English, French-Shi, Italian places. There would be a couple of regional specialities to remind the owner of where he came from. Of course they would probably wouldn't eat that at all being at that. But yeah, so we grew up in Italian restaurants. I think French restaurants were around a lot as well. But I always was jealous of my friends who, I didn't eat Indian food till I was 13. And Chinese and so I was 13. Because growing up in Wilkshire, we didn't really have, we didn't come out to restaurants in those days in the country. And if you went to London, you went to either Greens or to an Italian restaurant. Yeah. So yeah. You're, a lot of the restaurants we've spoken about, there's that sense of indulgence, you know, vast quantities of food, like comforts. But today what's very popular, the way restaurants being said, is things like tasting menus and stuff like that. Small plates. Yes, but how do you feel about that? Wow. And also, how do you feel about that? But also why is that a thing? Well, it all started when seven great chefs, and about 72, 73, are the twig or brothers, third number, four, started something along with Gault Millio. They did La cuisine, Newville, which everyone looks back. So it's all about putting a bit of Kiwi on a square plate. No, that was the bastardized version by the time they got over to here. What it really was, it was a revolutionary way of cooking. Let's take the butter out of the sources, let's make everything fresh, seasonal, light, let the flavors of the ingredients speak from the sourced, rather than being battered, or not literally battered, rather than being, you know, bust around in those very heavy, bassist coffee sources, you know, whatever it might be. And there was always reductions and stocks. And this was about purifying it, letting the flavors speak from the sourced, and hugely important for, well, for European gastronomy. So out of that, you know, there's legends came, and of course the Rue Brothers came over, and they were still doing quite, but they were influenced by Newville Cousin. And then of course, what happens, all those chefs who work for the likes of Pierre Kaufman, or the Rue Brothers, or Nico, they started, and now we're in the '80s, a thrusting '80s. There's lots of money, people are, you know, imagine the montage. Yeah. You know, with an '80s song, everyone on Big Bricks, with red braces on snorting code, drinking in the city. Yeah. That's what it was, champagne all around, and having a nice time. And that's when those restaurants, Harvey's, Marker, Pierre White, he's one of the great chefs of all time, despite having never been to France. He read the great chefs of France, he read Votre Verge, he read, you know, all, you know, Fernan Poir, the twigger, and he created these dishes, that, you know, and under him you had, you know, Gordon and Stephen Terry, and you know, all these people who work, did it help that chefs were now becoming sort of sex symbols? I mean, you think about Agniple Dane as well. Well, this wait before, but what it was Marker and Bob Carrows Clark. Marker and Marker, but Marker Pierre, where it was shot by like Bob Carrows Clark, in that case, sort of. At a movie stand, he was just beautiful, sort of, completely sort of cadaverous, chain-smoking, baron-esque figure. And this is when the chef came from the dark depths of the kitchen, and the chef became. And no longer that sort of, you know, big moustache, you know, sort of thing was gone. Big fella. And now it was this sort of. You know, almost a bit like Jeff Buckley, kind of long hair, and just sort of, yeah. Suddenly, this was, cooking was called, "Ever wanted to be a chef." Yeah, and. And, yeah, and it all exploded, and. You know, Marker was kicking people out of the restaurant, asking for ketchup, and. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Gordon came out of that, and that whole, um, diaspora, diaspora, that came out of Harvey's and Nico and the Rube brothers, and that changed the way London and Britain ate at the top end forever, but equally importantly, so this was still tasting menus, and I'll go into the tyranny of the tasting menu in a second. But this was. This was a, you know, this was the topping, "Sunny London's Alive London's Getting Great, The Food, All These Amazing Restores, Michelin, Sunny." You know, they were. Even though I think the waterside had three and Gavrosha had three. But 87, an amazing thing happened, where. If they were still the high end and the pubs and the taverns and the rest of it, five restaurants, Kensington Place Open, the river cafe opened. Yeah. I think that Simon Hopkinson was still at Halear, but I think he might have gone to Bebendum just around that point, and Alice Lippert, little open and so, ho. And these were all university-educated people. Stop it. They weren't. Traditionally, it was actually a working-class. Chefs' rule was a working-class thing, you know? Yeah. These were all university-educated, middle-class chefs who thought, "Why. You know, they looked at the Braseries of France and stuff like that. "Why can't food be a decent price, be non-scary, be an arumbuzzing, not sort of very grand?" Kensington Place was iconic, really. It was. Does that Jeremy King sort of bear as well, like he is? It was Jeremy's a. He helped. It's similar philosophy, sort of. Exactly the same philosophy. And Jeremy, of course, at the same time, he. with Chris. Actually, you know, because that was about 85, actually, earlier. Yeah. So, actually, for getting Jeremy, it's crazy. Because Langham's and stuff was the Bras. Was a Brasery was all about. We've really forgotten about Langham's, or Peter Langham, the mad, great, great, wrong. Of which all the movie stars, of course, Michael Cain, was a partner in that. So, that was actually. I forgot that and talking about the cool restaurants, because that was a Brasery. That wasn't posthued. That was. And it had every movie star in the world coming. Because presumably, word was now. This is a time of. of. broader press reach. Yeah. And so, word was getting out to America, to. to other nations that ultimately, Latin, was a great place to go. Well, it wasn't if you think of. The Great Richard Young was a paparazzi, you know? Yes. So, his garcy has taken. Now, of course, he's the grand old man of that old, but the grand man of photography. Yeah, yeah. But he was a proper, rough and tumble, paparazzi. I mean, he's telling me about the times that he was at Freddie Mercury's parties in. With the doors. Kenneth Gardens, yeah, yeah. Garlie Gosh. And he's seen everything, which anything of Dave Bennett as well, and all that got. But that was. Yeah, of course, that was. Langham's is very important. River Café was usually important. And it started obviously as. Richard Rogers Ruthie, and Richard Rogers his wife, got Rose Grey, who'd cooked before, and she came in and Ruthie learned, you know, and became an incredible cook herself. But this started off as a small canteen for. You know, the Richard Rogers associates' architects on Inhamismith, a place where there was nothing, you know, for the bow-mond in Inhamismith. Alice Little is so, but what the point of all of them were doing was. Unlike Langham's, which, yes, there was decent food, and it was browser-y as. This was taking food very seriously, so it was. If you're going to do Italian, we're going to get the best ingredients in the world. Where we leave obviously a train to Le Poulpeau and the Gavrosch bit, and the Ru, so he was French-trained. Alice Little was bringing, keep it simple, you know, doing the best, you know, what Italian, the great Italian food is, but also influences from all over the world and doing that. And Simon Hopkinson is just one of the great French chefs of all time, you know, just incredible, but Bendon, but it was relaxed. You didn't have to wear suits. You could go in and eat classic French dishes, all bourgeois French dishes. Terence Conran, again, another great figure, of course, we've talked about. A little bit, but suddenly, 87 London was, you know, anything of 192 coming into the 90s, and you think of Conran doing Metso and Quaglino's, and the food was never very good at those places, but they were with the spectacles fantastic. Then, of course, you could, we came into the era of Heston, the fact dark, which started off as a Brasery, Alacart, then moved to Heston being the genius he was, Ferran Adria at Elboulli, which again was in a thinker, but yet you had 55 courses, and it was, they all hate the term now, molecular astronomy, which, which it was basically, you know, post-modern food, you know, what is food? Why do we, what, is the plate edible? always, many, many, many. And some of it at the time is really interesting. and is a genius. And he understood the sense of fun, of nostalgia. And I never mind, I still don't mind now. Jockey and Petri is old HF is back at the dark now, doing great things and Heston's back there. But we used to call it my ex-wife and either too many of the tasty men, you'd go in, it'd be like as cold as a morseling and you'd sit down and it was like going to a country house hotel in the 80s and 90s, you know. And this is so many able to appear with a Bible, that thick of wine, sort of looked down as nose and some more. And if you didn't order the latash or the chivalre blot, you know, it's always, you know, the second cheapest bottle, which they knew for a while and they'd put some absolute crap on it. And then it'd be here, there's something from the chef and you know, by about course 24, you'd hit the wall. All pleasure has gone from eating. They explain and still do explain every course. So you can't have a conversation. And my ex-wife called me clean, clean restaurants, because all you'd hear was a sort of clean, clean, clean, you know, metal on porcelain, a bit of glass and everyone really scared. It was like, it was a bit like that. Rodos Puro was a bit different. I was sort of the food at Rodos Puro. People forget the Gordon Ramsay was an incredibly, and is a very, very good chef. I agree. And a very good trainer of chefs. You think of Angela Hartner, one of the great chefs. I really love her restaurant, to put some the Royal Opera House. I've heard it's brilliant. It's really good. I love Angela. She's not just a lovely person and she was, she was, I'm not a pioneer or anything, but she was. You wouldn't have, you know, the women have come past out of Gordon's kitchen, it's Claire Smith, another fantastic chef. Yeah. Again, everything in the 2000s suddenly was fine dining, but there'd be no tablecloths. You could wear what you wanted, you know, it was, again, you think of the library, which is Bretti Graham, who trained under another great person, Phil Howard at the Square. That was another legendary. Phil Howard was amazing. Amazing chef. Still isn't amazing. Great looking guys. Well, I'm sure everyone loved working here. Gentle, highly intelligent. And just, you think Brett Graham came out of the square. Great friend of mine called Scully Pickett in Australia, who has a lot of restaurants over there. That was a very good training ground for all four. Now, what are the restaurants at this point catering for the fact that actually the new money in London was coming from places like the U.A.E. or, you know, Russia or, you know, London was now, it was no longer an English palette that you like we were talking about with the curries before. We're not talking about English palettes anymore for the restaurants. So that was, if you're talking about people coming in from the U.A. and Russia, a whole new brand of restaurants, a whole new group of restaurants started Novakov. Yeah. Places that perhaps sexy fish. Sexy fish. Now, we haven't even got onto the era of rich are caring yet. And whatever you say about rich are caring. He's a genius, you know. And I realised, look, I'm, I love the Caprice with all my, that was our restaurant we grew up in. Jeremy and Chris were working together are the kings. Yes, they're quite literally. I love shikis. I love, I mean, the ivy at its peak. And again, we're talking when I was working so hard in the mid 90s. It was, you know, Caprice, as you know, was more art world, magazine world, royalty, photography, that sort of thing. Ivy was theatre, yes, showbiz, bit of film. And you'd walk down on left hand side and you'd see Lloyd Webber on his table. You'd see Ed Victor on Ed Victor had tables everywhere, the great literary agent. He had tables, the whole place. And it was hierarchy. You never want it. It was all right. Being on the big table down below the corner one. But if you're right at the back, that was social Siberia. You know, you wanted those tables. So that story from the ivy when A. Gil was raised about the fact that he said, "Everyone has a Charles Finch story." And I said this because I used to work for Charles Finch. I was offered to sit. I was offered a job by Charles Finch, lost, left my job back, I think this is for you Charles. And I got then and he said, "I don't have a job, I just want to have fun." Well this is even better, I think because A. Gil, Charles goes, "Hi, I'm Charles Finch, I'm a big fan." And he goes, "Tiles, many times before." And he goes, "Oh, of course, I'm just thinking that maybe I'm an agent and I should be a agent." And he goes, "Tiles, you are my agent." I mean, again, Adrian, you're going to go one of the greats, but it was again at the Caprice, you wanted the corner table between the two windows of which Princess Diana, Jeffrey Archer, it was nice, they've Lindy, Nicholas, Coleridge, Jorley, Greg, they would all have that one. And you didn't want to be towards the back unless you were having a fling and want to be discrete, but it was a great double bluff. Why would you go to the Caprice if you're having an affair? Well, because you'd say, "Well, I wouldn't go to the Caprice, I think that'd be the autistic everyone's there." But it was such a scene, the Caprice in the '90s, and it was open till 12, and it was Mark Hicks was cooking there. And same with Sheikies, it had a complete, that was after our theatre crowd, Maggie Smith and Robert Stevens, and coming in. So these were places which were about the atmosphere in the service as much as the food, and they were incredible. Caring was, when it was open, it was Jeremy King, Mark Hicks, now a Mount Street. Now a Mount Street. And it was again, it was another, with Hicksie doing the food, very, very beautiful fish. My friend Matt Hobbes was running the front of House, and Jeremy was doing it, and it was a great restaurant, at that point, average Caring board, Caprice Holdings. And actually, sexy fish and back and earlier, and other places like Amazonica and Amazonica, they're catering for not catering for us. I think they're catering for the Novakov. They're catering for Novakov. And so beer. Without it sort of being the dodger. If you want caviar and everything, King Crab Legs, lavish, expensive, so beer. It's good markets are being appealing too. Big enough city. A reliable spending market. And you look at the IV and the IV grill, and how he's spread it across. It is a thing, it is what it is, but I have nothing to respect for how he's completely transformed, that mid market. Because I love 34. 34 is great. It's a great steakhouse. Yes, exactly. I agree. And would be my one of choice, except for maybe Santa Maria Dosa on Queen Sumrade. I don't know if you've been to that one. Is that so? It's the Air the Argeons and the One. It's absolutely. I love carp. I love carp, because I think that's fantastic. And I do like Hawksmore. Yeah. But yes, but you've got to the 90s, the case. So you've got this explosion of democratic restaurants. You've also got Wagamama coming in, Alan Nial. This is amazing for you. Yeah. He's doing noodles. Now we know much like noodles. He's making noodles not scary noodles and and and cats you chicken and suddenly it's supposed to take the kids and it's cheap. Oh no, we know enough. There was the soupies, the Japanese soups. That was, I mean, that was, I mean, that was a ramen. I'm thinking of ramen. The ramen, the expression, kind of, a bit later, like 2010, I see you think, with the Tonkotsu's and the maybe 2010, it was always there. You could always find ramen in sort of parts of small Japanese restaurants, but it wasn't a big thing. But that, the 2000s, it was all blowing up and food of Jamie Oliver and suddenly food was cool and two-fatt ladies and food was mass on the telly's and cookbooks. And another person we've always forget about, Gary Rhodes, was a really important figure in British gastronomy. I'd like to also throw in Gavin Rankin just because, I mean, let's just. Not only because of and and we can go on for hours without Gavin, but because of his influence, having worked with, he was at the first to work with the Soviet Union with Cabo Caspia. And then on to Burley, Burley. Then on to Burley. And then we went back to the same site where Cabo Caspia was to open Bela Mees. Now Bela Mees is like, Bela Mees, Lepatch on Mornin's EC work. Yeah, it's very about every day. All on the day. And there's something about the Frongley menu and there's something about how terrifying, he won't mind me saying this, of Stefan, the wonderful chef. Yes. Not terrified. The healthy respect for him. He's just sitting, he goes up to the little peep pole in the door and he takes off his glasses and looks through and then he goes. Stefan runs the kitchen and the Patron runs everything else. I think I've been there a hundred times, I've still never met him. I did a piece years ago, Stefan, I love his cooking. I wish they would do a fun shale again, but it was apparently only me and Rodi Lieber, the only people ever ate that. But I just love it, my parents love it because it's quiet. They don't noise the restaurant, so my mother is a great eater out, my father's a great eater out. And it's sort of like Greenswell's, as you always bump into five people you know. And it's the only restaurant in the world that Queen Elizabeth second, eight and more than once. Yeah. And she downstairs, and of course, for my last book I was trying to sort of get in Gavans Farty's screen, he's useless. You know, I'm not. Anything out of it. And he's really, you know, and he can hold his drink as well. So you can't have a long lunch and try and ask, he's incredibly discreet. But also he's watching him in Luigi, watching all the time, and it was a bit like what Jeremy King was a master off of not putting wise next to Missouruses, next to business. You know what I mean? There was a real, and I think Jeremy's still, Jeremy King, so it looks, all the, I mean the park is my place at the moment. Because it's got that American feel, but the children of it, because they can have everything, you can take my dog in at lunch. Yeah. On a Wednesday Thursday you pretty much know everyone. It's very much so West London, but not in a sceny, wanky way. Yeah. And really one of the way the service is, you know, out of this world. And I just, and you're treated exactly the same if you're Jars Corridor. or Adrian Gill or David Beckham as if you're someone who's just coming and saved up for three weeks to come. That is hugely important. Really, really important. He did that very well at the Woolsey. I remember the Woolsey, you know, 20-26 chips. Well, exactly. I've never been back to the Woolsey since he's left. It cares me. Because out of loyalty, you just don't do it. No, it might be fine. I'm sure. But the Woolsey was the cafe. It was. One of my favourite things that he did at the Woolsey was the napkin. If you were wearing a navy blue suit, you'd be brought a black napkin. Because a white napkin, if it went to a navy suit, would just leave lots of white lint on your suit. F***! Isn't that. I've heard it. I've heard it. Simpsons, he's got the napkins all having a little hole in it, so you can attach it. I'm not sure how that would work. It's an unbuttoned thing. Well, it wouldn't. You wouldn't unbutton it. Where do you put your napkin on your collar? People always ask that. I. Well, there's. I follow Gavin. Gavin does it into the site. Yes, in the full. And so I. It's quite a sort of. It's quite a statement, wearing that Dave Carr, the late great Dave Carr, used to it, and Art Dealer, who was a great trenchman. And he used to just put it. You know, put it in. Spread it with. Yeah, I mean, if I am only saying, you don't want a white shirt covered in stuff, especially if. Yeah, so I do. I like just tucking it in and using your hands and getting tucked in, it's. So, I guess to do round the sort of things up, obviously, people talk often about how difficult it is to have a restaurant these days. So, how do you see the landscape? Who do you think's doing it best? And what do you think is the sort of rubric one should follow? Well, you look at the restaurants. It's incredibly hard. Everyone still imagines hospitality. Oh, they own a restaurant. They make a fortune. They get pissed all day. Wine and dine. It's a life of the restaurant. You know, like. And perhaps there was some truth that perhaps in the 70s, maybe, you know, but government over the last 25 years, I've been absolutely used to it. The one thing they could do is cut that by 10, you know, cut it to 10%. If they got rid of that, yeah. That would be. Of course, this government heard anti-pleasure. I mean, the last government were useless as well. Well, as Rishi's thought, he put in the vat on. Yeah, if you wish. But then, you know, you got. Then it's suddenly, you know, just a shit show, I've ever think it came before. But it's tough. But it still shows that if you are successful in a good restaurant, you can still pack it out. And it's incredibly hard work. I'm going for lunch at Bouchon Racine, Racine as Henry Harris's place, that used to be a night's bridge. The rates went to high. He went back to cooking at various places. You can't get a table there for 10 years, you know, love more money. The other great restaurateur who's come in the last five years is Martin, he'll come with an awkward. Martin, because I always pronounce his name wrong. Actually, even on Instagram, it's called Martin Comprancer's name. Used to run a showhouse. London still is. Yeah. In the top five cities in the world, they have the most mission stars. So you have three of them are in Japan. You've got Tokyo, Osaka and Kyoto. Yeah. And then you've got Paris and London. London is still where people want to go to. But yeah, Michelin, that's the. Michelin is panicking sliding now. And they're sort of doing tele-programs to sort of try and keep their relevance. Because for a long time, they would never dream of giving a Japanese. Well, Japanese find a Chinese restaurant, a star, an Indian restaurant, a star. And you're going back to places like, you know, how. I think JKS were a fantastic restaurant. They do Jim Kahn, Brigadier's. The one. Trishner. Trishner. That's great. Trishner is terrific. Brilliant. And Jim Kahn is consists. It's got two stars now, but don't know that. But you off. It is still one of the best restaurants. And it's ramped. You cannot get there for money. And is there anyone that the ambassador's. Masters covers it? Is that part of the same group? Yeah, it is. They used to have bow that they've sold off. They have a stake in Legato in the Evers, Marigold's restaurants. But Martin. And I'm just reading this one to me. But it's Martin Kuzmaski, who used to work at Soha's. And he's opened the Dover. And then the Dover counter. The Dover is a sexiest restaurant I've been to for years. Really? It looks like being in a cigar box. He has a sound system that's probably worth more than the building. Only playing vinyl, so rare grooves. The lighting is beautifully done. Like Jeremy King. Like all great restaurants, there's understand lighting. It's as important as food as something. As service. And it's sexy in the cocktails, so a maclit. So when you have a martini just like it, Bellamonds bar in the car, in New York, they bring it. And there's always enough for another half. They put it in the ice bucket by the side. It's no. If you're having a martini, you're too busy gossiping. They will put. I have to find minutes once you're freezing glass. It's got warm. They get another freezing glass out. It's detailed. It's detailed. And he's just opened the Dove and Counter, which is next door. Much more laid back. I described it as sort of basically upmarket rumourservice food. It's burgers, it's salads. It's a. And it's this atmosphere. And it shows. You know, club sandwiches. It shows it. There is a demand if you get it right. But you're sure I've seen it again. You can't get into. But the middle market is suffering massively. You can't get away with mediocre. You can't get away eating out as expensive. So people have to realise restriatures, which they do, is that. You know, there are a lot of people. There's a certain part of London who don't look at bills. It doesn't, you know, the rich are very, very rich in London. But the vast majority of people watching the pennies and eating out is very, very expensive. So you're looking for value. Yeah. And therefore the set menu, the 25 quid set menu, whether it may be rassian or. You know, that and a glass of house white. That's. You've got to treat your punters with respect. And I think that's what all the great restriatures know is that look after all of your customers. Don't just look after the famous ones who expect to free me. Or the. You know, it's about looking after the people who come time, after time, after time. They pay the service charge. They pay the rates. You know, this is what keeps London. London is one of the most expensive cities in the world. There's no doubt about that. I think New York's a bit more expensive, actually, weirdly, at the moment. It's more expensive than Tokyo. Paris is quite expensive. But it is extortionally expensive to get around, to buy, to do anything. You know, you go to the West End and it's, you know, going by a book and having a bit of lunch. It's 100 quid. Yeah, yeah. And you're not even having a drink. And that's how I say there's a heart back, rather than pay back. But yes, so I think that the great restriatures understand that the most important person of all, obviously, is the customer. If you look after the customer, you don't take the piss. You serve good food at a decent price in a restaurant that you want to linger in. Because, of course, atmosphere is everything. Well, look, I've really enjoyed this. So what I suggest maybe we do part two at some point when you go down the line and talk about all those other places, you know, because ultimately everybody loves tip. Well, all those cheap bases, I mean, Taiwan and Hamasmith and you can go to South Orn, you can go to New Morden and you can go to, that's when London gets, it's completely different thing. We're talking about London as London. But when you get into London as a hundred different nationalities, cultures coming together, that's what makes me very proud to be a Londoner too. Immigration, fantastic. It's what makes London this amazing eating city. And it's not all about the top end. It's about everything. It's a great place to eat. Well, it's your favourite London restaurants. The dishes you keep going back to, all the worlds of luxury you would like us to explore next. Thank you for listening and happy dressing and dining. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]