Inside Hacks’ Amazing Race Crossover Episode w/ Director Jeff Rosenberg

[MUSIC] Hey, everybody. Rob here. Getting ready for this podcast, you're today. This is a fun one that we're going to be doing something a little bit different. I am talking with Jeff Rosenberg, who is the director and a producer on the HBO series, "Hacks," which is in its final season. And they just did an episode of "Hacks," where Gene Smart, or character Debra, ends up going on the amazing race with her daughter, played by Caitlin Olson. And they have a all-selebrity, amazing race episode of "Hacks." I got the chance to talk with Jeff. I've been crushing "Hacks" episodes. It's a very, very funny show. There are some very light spoilers about the world of "Hacks," but you certainly could listen to this interview without knowing too much about the world of "Hacks," but I do highly suggest you check out the show, which is very, very funny. Episode five of season five is the episode in which we're talking about. And here is my interview with Jeff Rosenberg. Hey, everybody. What's going on? Rob Cesternino back with you. And we have a really fun podcast here today, because we are talking with somebody who is a reality television superfan who has brought his love of reality television into the world of "Script TV" over in the final season of "Hacks" for an amazing race-themed episode. He's a producer on the show and the director of the most recent episode of "Hacks" where we had the amazing race show up in the world of "Hacks." It's Jeff Rosenberg. Jeff, how are you? I am so excited to be here. Not to just immediately spoil this, but I mean, when I found out I was directing this episode and when I talked to HBO Max publicity, I literally said, "Please get me on Rob as a podcast." That is all I really care about in life. I'm a loyal listener. I'm a day one watcher of "The Holy Trinity." I watch all of them from the beginning. This was on so many levels, like the coolest opportunity I've ever had professionally. Like this is just icing on the cake. Yes. This was a really, really fun episode, which had all of the amazing race trappings. Again, this is a sign of that. I'd say that this Warner Bros. Paramount merger is looking pretty good when things like this happen, where we have Phil Kogin and we have all of the amazing race music and everything. This was a really fun, amazing race episode in a time where we're in a real amazing race drought as we're waiting for the fall for the next episode of "The Amazing Race." Jeff, could you tell us a little bit about what was the genesis of this amazing race idea? How hard did you have to pitch to have this be where pitch for Deborah to be going onto the amazing race? This all goes back to Luccio Aniello and Paul W. Down, who are the creators of the show along with Jen Statsky. They were working on a project. I believe around 2019, Kevin Hart was involved in it and he had pitched this idea that he would be a divorced husband where him and his ex-wife had went on the amazing race. At the time, Luccio and Paul knew of the amazing race. As I understand it, they weren't really fans of it. They started watching and they immediately became obsessed with the show. Then pandemic hits and they just start binging seasons of amazing race. I think a lot of people did. It was like that became kind of their comfort show. They weren't able to travel. They couldn't leave the house. So they just started watching old seasons and got really into it. So then when we started running because amazing race was the first thing that got canceled with code. It's like, "Oh, man, did you hear this? This must be real. This COVID because they canceled the amazing race." Literally had the split season where they come back after and bring the team back and they're all in their clothes still and they're like, "Let's keep going." That was going on at video village. I'm the first AD, which means I make the schedule and run the set as well as directing and other things. We're at video village and they mentioned that they were watching amazing race. That's such a trigger for me. I can tell you, I can define shows I worked on by the accountant on the good place loves big brother or things like that. I know the people I can text that also share my obsession. Right when they said they were into amazing race, I was like, "Oh my God. I love the amazing race." We started talking about it. Season two, they wrote in a quick little beat where they dropped a kernel that Deborah and Ava might go on the amazing race, just saying how they thought they'd be a good team. From that moment forward, I was just like, "You have to do an amazing race episode." Never in my life had I thought there was a better idea for my personal taste. Like, "Hax is my favorite show on TV." Amazing races, my favorite reality show to watch. The idea of the characters being on it just was so incredible to me that I just kept in the back when I had been like, "I pray this happens." It would come up throughout the last few years, but then our first scout for season five, the first thing Luchia says to me when I see Luchia is, "We're going to do amazing race this year." From that moment, I was just like, "Please, please let me direct that episode." I just wanted to do it so badly. From the moment, I knew for sure I was directing it. I'm not exaggerating. I watched nothing but amazing race for three straight months. I would watch it in the morning. I would watch it when I came home. I usually had one season. My family would be watching with me while I was also watching other seasons. But I'm also taking notes on the taxis. Have a red and yellow sticker in this country, but not in this country. Where are the camera people? I'm frees framing anytime I see them. So much of it was just digging in deep to make sure we got it right. You really could tell there was a lot of Easter eggs in terms of people who are long time amazing race fans that this really did feel very authentic from so many amazing race tropes that were in this to the challenges that they participated in. I really did feel that the passion of an amazing race fan was behind this. Yeah, I mean, that's so great to hear. And it was myself, obviously with Lucia Paul or Die Hard fans as well. But then our director Janine is a huge amazing race fan. Just people are popping out. Our DIT-tiglers. I need a photo with Phil is freaking out. But the biggest thing at the core would be like Elise, the creator of the show along with Bertram and then Phil, the two of them were so insanely helpful. If they weren't involved, I don't think this episode could have happened. So when we're in early stages, I know Lucia and Paul and Jan had reached out and got in contact with Elise. And she was there every day we were filming. She was on zooms constantly with our crew. Our prop master, Jane Goulaq, is literally getting the clues from them, but also getting the schematics of the cheesehold. She had the actual blu-- of how they designed that because we had to build a magnet version of it that could fall apart and then a hard plastic version that would stay together and then a breakaway version for when she falls. And so so many people, ultimately, were involved and then Josh, the DP of Amazing Race, was Deborah and DJ's camera guy. And the sound team, everything, all the camera and sound people were all from Amazing Race. Like we were using their equipment. So when we would rehearse a scene, we would rehearse the action and hacks like we would with the actors, then we'd go into lighting mode. And then I would go off with the Amazing Race crew and just be like, okay, so they need to load in the car and we need to get the car out of there quickly. But like, how does the loading of the car work with the camera and sound team? Like what if you miss it? What if they just drive off? Have they talked to the taxi driver ahead of time? Is he pulled up? It's just all those conversations were all things that you see at points, but it was like needed to try to make it feel as real as possible. So like I said ahead of time, like we need food, children, and animals everywhere. Like Amazing Race loves food, children, and animals. They're in like every every episode is just constantly cutting to those three things. And in the end of the episode, we actually don't cut to those three things that much, but I promise you they were there and like at times and stuff like that. So it's just all of it was just trying to build out the reality of this and then make it feel like hacks, but make it feel like this weird collaboration where it feels both like hacks and Amazing Race all at once. Yeah. So Phil was really great in all of this. Also that Phil looked great. I think that this, I don't know if Phil being this is now we're in like prestige television lighting and everything, but I don't think Phil looked incredible. Phil looked incredible. I mean that is Adam Bricker, our award winning cinematographer and his team. Like he makes everyone look good. I literally was sending him pictures of where I was gonna set. for this interview today asking him what to do. And he's like, well, make sure that you have a windows open facing from the north and the west and all of the cinematographer stuff. So, I mean, that was some of it too. We're like asking Alisa ahead of time, like where would craft service be? And she's like, there is no craft service. Or like where's video village? It's like all the things that were sort of used to in scripted television that are different. But then simultaneously, like that cheese and goat challenge, we shot both of those in one day in the middle of winter. So like a seven and a half hours. That's amazing race, baby. That's amazing race. So there were points of it that was like finding the hybrid of the two was the fact that like, I literally, there were points where I was at the top of the hill with Caitlin and Trish. Lichia was at the bottom of the hill with Jordan and Jean directing with them. I'm watching on an iPad. They're watching on video village. We finished shooting with Caitlin. She hops in a gator to go down the mountain. And I just ran down the hill. Because I'm like, we're on amazing race. I need to get there. So I just run down this massive incline, can't slow myself down. And just run past our crew as I'm trying to get somewhere flat to try to not-- Like the wheel of cheese. Stuff it. I was a wheel of cheese. I was a human wheel of cheese in that moment. But in the end, it was all worth it. Right? Because on the amazing race, nobody has to say the right lines. You're just there to document what happens, and they're doing it. And nobody has to hit their mark or anything like that. But this must have been incredibly difficult to try to keep up with that shooting schedule. And the actors have to do what they're supposed to do. Yes. So that part of it is-- I think all of us, like in terms of the combination of the two teams that all I think are worth very hard at what they do and have perfected their crafts over these years, I think for both sides, it was so interesting to have these conversations. Because they're like, from their end, it's kind of like, oh, you guys get to do a second take. So they're probably jealous of that fact. Whereas conversely, we're just like, oh, you just move on. You just go. Like there's no looking back. You just run until somebody gets eliminated. And then months later, you're in an editing bay with this massive team of editors and assistant editors, creating story and scripting all of this after the fact and building it. So it's just very-- I think different approaches. So I've really enjoyed the show. I'm a newer hacks fan, but I've just been crushing hacks episodes. You mentioned that there was a line about Deborah and Eva being the amazing race or functioning like an amazing race team. Was there ever a thought of it being Eva doing the race with Deborah instead of her daughter? Yeah, actually, the initial outline of it had that. So it was a situation where she started with DJ. And DJ got injured, and then Eva ended up stepping in. So that was a thing that was initially thought about. This is like early outline stages. And I think it came down to it as they were breaking it in the room and having more conversations about it. It was really becoming a-- it's the last season. It was like, let's have a sort of a big episode that really dives deep into Deborah and DJ's relationship. And I think allows them to really grow as characters. And I think-- that's a thing that's so interesting to me. Because amazing race, I think, why people connect to it so deeply is that it is this show about two people who love each other, be it siblings, be it couples, be it best friends, be it mother daughters, father sons, all these relationships. There's so much baggage brought to it. And it pushes these teams so hard, emotionally and physically. And it causes these truly beautiful moments with these people who deeply care about each other and have a similar goal for this moment of time. And I think brings people together. So narratively, hacks in the end is a show about two-person relationships. Like there's Deborah and Eva, but there's Jimmy and Kayla. And it's just like the amazing race. So it was a show. That's why I say it was my favorite pitch I'd ever heard for an episode. It wasn't just because I love the amazing race, which I do. It really was like this makes sense for the show. Like this-- it would be hilarious to see Kayla on Big Brother. Like that would be a funny episode of television. But the emotional weight of Deborah and DJ going through this journey that pushes them, where they can't leave each other and they can't escape each other, and they're forced to sort of face years of history together in this moment on television. It was just something that I was so excited about. It was a really moving, emotional resolution between Deborah and DJ by the end where Deborah didn't want to put her in the position to fail. And I thought it really stuck the landing. Thank you. Yeah, that's the part that's easier and scripted. You can set it up. You can prepare it. You can make sure you nail it. Like you don't have to just hope Jonathan hits the coin flip. You know what I mean? You can do it. You can know exactly what's going to happen. And you're good. Yeah. So do you think that there ever would be a celebrity amazing race? Do you think you inspired Phil and Bertrand? I would love if there was. I would. I don't know if they want to do it. And please let Paul and Lucia go on it. They would be incredible television. But yeah, I think it would be great. And that was one of the funnest parts of this whole thing was casting it, was thinking about like, you know, once you know that Deborah's on it and the level of star that Deborah is, then you need to start building out what the rest of the cast is and what makes sense. Yeah. So that was, you know, incredible. Really fun that the property brothers also were there to participate in the amazing race. And that was a very fun scene where we were talking about what they're playing for. And then, and then that just Trish. Yeah. So then we had, so then it was Trisha and Jordan. So Trisha and Jordan were scripted in. And so it was like there to extremely current hilarious comedians. And then, so then it became like what are, we sort of had two other slots of teams like who would make sense. So very early it was like, you know, we've had a lot of like either nostalgia. We've had cameos throughout the show. But it's like, what are some things maybe we haven't really hit on. And so very early thought was like, oh man, the property brothers would be great. Like I could see CBS being all over that as potential casting. And so their response was a photo of them in clown makeup from something else. They were very eager and ready to go. And then, so my two biggest obsessions in life are CBS reality television and Cleveland sports. So I was just like, whatever we do, if we can get two members of the 2016 NBA Cleveland Cavaliers Championship team, I like, I literally that can be the final moment of my life. Like in the Coliseum, like I can just wave goodbye, walk off into the sunset and say, I have achieved I am good. I am complete. And yeah, so we got JR Smith and Richard Jefferson to do it, which I mean, I'm not exaggerating. It was like, that was the coolest moment of my life. And when I'm meeting them and completely freaking out, I think Jonathan Scott was like, I was wearing all cabs gear. I was like, ready to go. That's a JR Smith bottle head behind me. It was like, this is, this is peak. And yeah, Jonathan was like, oh, do you have any property brothers underwear on or something, which was his response to me fully geeking out about the two of them as the property brothers are standing there waiting to shake my hand and introduce themselves. But they understood. - Yeah. Phil is very funny. And I don't know if he gets to be as funny on the amazing race as he actually is behind the scenes. We've talked to him a bunch of times over the years. And he's got a really great sense of humor. How was Phil on set? - I mean, you know, you have these like ideas and concepts of what things can be like and you build them up. And Phil was so far like above and beyond what anyone could ask for. He was hilariously funny, as you said. But also, you know, he's such a professional. Like he, just in terms of like hitting his marks in terms of playing along, like for like the introduction at the start line and all that stuff. I mean, obviously he's done that so many times, but like he's interacting with the cast. He's knowing where the cameras are and finding it correctly. But then on top of that, like between takes and stuff, like he's just like sitting at village and hanging out. Like, it's like, It's sort of common on TV, so it's like, when you're directing an episode, you'll get a coffee truck for the crew. So I had a coffee that was made with this ridiculous photo of me on top of it, of a buddy lost a bet to me and had to get a tattoo of my face. So I got to put on the coffee. So it feels just like sitting at village, like gooffully drinking my face. - Yeah, the whole thing was like, what was the bet that your friend lost that they had to get, this must have been some bet. He bet me that I was writing a movie called OJ The Musical. It's a fellow based OJ Simpson musical that he told me I would never make. And I said, when I make it, you had to get a tattoo of my face. And he said, okay. And at the Santa Barbara Film Festival, I got a tattoo of my face right before the screening of the movie. - Yeah. - Okay. - So anyway, that tattoo was on a coffee cup. Fills drink in the coffee, just hanging out, like eating at our catering, just like having a blast. He came to our kickoff party. Just, I mean, again, you're like, I think for everyone, it was, there was just like a mutual respect that you hope will happen in something like this. I think you'll see a lot of like, especially like scripted parodies of reality shows on TV, where it's sort of like making fun, like making fun of like cribs or something like that. Doing like that, the parody thing of a show. And from moment one, that was not what any of us wanted to do. Like we are, like at like the core team of hacks, like we're huge fans of the show. Like this was not a like, let's do a parody. Like I hope people don't take it that way 'cause it's not a parody. For me, it was fully a celebration of this show that's been an important part of my life for 25 years. It's always fun when you have like a show within a show where the characters from one show go on another show. Were you inspired by any other favorite times that's happened as a viewer? - I mean, I'm trying to say, I mean, I know, I mean, it's Caitlin, so I'm just picturing like always sunny going on family feud. You know, there's, it's stuff like that. Those things I do when you can tell that the people are like both game and both excited to just sort of do these mashups. Yeah, I think it, I just think it's a blast. - I think my favorite one from when I was a kid was when Cliff Clayvin went on Jeopardy. - Yeah, yeah. Yep. And we, and I also, I work on Plotonic and so we had a character go on Jeopardy last year. And so yeah, it's the, it's a, and yeah, I mean, but even like we, we shot one day on Hacks at like CBS Studios and we just happened to be in the room that they shoot Wheel of Fortune and they had pushed all their stuff off to the side and the person from CBS was like, if you guys want, you can each spin the wheel once. And it was like, we had to, - That's it. - 'Cause there was all of us who wanted to spin the wheel. So we had to take like, we had to like take 10 minutes down and let everybody go spin the wheel. 'Cause it was just like, it was the coolest thing ever. And all that, I mean, it's so, it's just, I mean, the fact is is that people who get into, you know, making film and making TV and stuff like that, all of this for most people started when we were kids and we're obsessed with watching TV and watching movies and stuff like that. So, so much of the fun on set is, for the last six years, talking about episodes of amazing race at Video Village. - Like, yeah. - There's a reality, like when I, when I'll go to monitors, I have to like tell people like, oh, I didn't watch Tribal last night 'cause my kid went to bed, don't tell me what happens. So there's like this running thing of like knowing what people are watching, what other people are into and just that share dialogue. And so to just embrace that was, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Great. - You know, I really did love the part about DJ being this amazing race super fan, where she credits Phil for getting her through her sobriety and you know, so many people have these special relationships with the show and it really did feel very authentic that she has this special relationship with the amazing race, where that she knew all of the lore and the rules of it. So I thought that that was also really well done. - Yeah, I mean, I think right now, we're two people who in very different ways, lives have been shaped by these shows. Years more directly, mine a little more in the shadows. But I think for, I would imagine just about everybody who's watching this and listening to this, it's the exact same thing. So in a way, it's like you're being seen as a super fan of this show. Like this is, I think a celebration of this fandom that is such a shared thing, I think, for a lot of people. How did it, was it decided the challenges that they were gonna participate? Because I think that when you have the wealth of, you know, almost 40 seasons of the amazing race, there's so many iconic challenges. How did the team get it down to these specific challenges that we saw? - I mean, I was basically told for a moment, one, we're doing the cheese challenge. We didn't even know what country we were gonna be in. Like it was like, we're doing the cheese challenge. So like the day after I found out, I was directing, we still didn't know the country yet. I woke up at like six in the morning and before I went to the office, I just started hiking like open nature preserves and like lost virginess, like trying to find a hill that we'd be able to like put laughing people at the bottom and cheese racks and all this stuff. And so cheese challenge was like unquestioned, that's happening. And then other than that, I think, you know, it just became obvious, like, I think clowns goat and cheese, I think we're all there from the beginning. And there were talk of other challenges. I realized I haven't brought up Pat Regan yet, who is an amazing writer, also plays Praean in the beginning. He's also a psychotic fan. So like I'm like, when I first ran in in the office and we realized, you know, he was writing it, I was directing it, we're like talking about season five. We're just like immediately going and we're just like, and you know, there are other iconic ones. I remember at one point, we kind of talked about doing like watermelon in the face. - Yep. - But it was just like, we can't, I mean, the aftermath of like, what are we gonna do with Caitlin's face if we go with that one? - But yeah, we never bring that back either. They would not know. - No, that is a, that is one that I would imagine like insurance and HR and everyone involved probably wants to pretend never happened. And the fact that it's like the most watched clip is it's a, yeah, it was, I think it was a different time in terms of what things might be allowed to do. But you know, it does turn out like doing something like the cheese challenge is really complicated. Like when I read that, I was like laughing so hard, I'm like, this is gonna be incredible. And then I had to like step back and be like, how the hell are we gonna shoot this? Just like the actual reality of like getting camera people, like on amazing race, like their camera positions and stuff will be lower on the hill. Also those camera people, I say this with love and respect. Those people are nuts. They're like document, they're like documentary and filmmakers that are just like, so I would ask them like, you know, Josh and Chris, like, what would you guys do here? They're like, we'll just run up the hill. But we're like, we can't really do that here. And so you know, we have like, we had a technocrane to be able to get our camera far enough up the hill. But like to be able to make sure that we had enough like velocity going on the cheese to actually be rolling down the hill and to get people falling, you know, you have the moment of like Luke running down the hill and that shot that looks like it's fast motion from the original cheese challenge. So it's stuff like that that you're just like trying your best to like recreate it within your world. But yeah, that was that was the biggest one. And then like goat challenge, you know, I'm looking through every milking of an animal challenge I can find from previous seasons looking what we're gonna do. And on that we're like, we've been on the cheese hill for a while, we have to land the cars here, we have to do all this stuff. We get over the goats, we have like maybe an hour and a half to shoot like two scenes, which is laughably impossible. And then the goat is just not following directions at all. Like this classic goat's classic, classic goats, classic amazing race. But then thankfully we had Caitlin Olson who is maybe the greatest comedic physical actor of our time or that I've ever worked with. So she's just like, she was supposed to just be sitting under milking the goat. Next thing you know, like you don't cut with Caitlin, you just see what happens. She's like just standing up with her like pelvic muscle, shoving the goat back into place while trying to milk it and then actually got milk out of the goat. It was like truly one of the most impressive things I've ever seen, give her all of her flowers and every award just incredible. Jeff, do you have a favorite amazing race team? I'm probably. It's probably, I think it's the second time Colin and Christie were on it. I think just because I love the idea of like how much time there was between their seasons and for some, yeah, and to see the growth and see a team that I wasn't necessarily a fan of the first time around and basically have them be a completely different team was great. I mean, I will admit I am partially usually the big brother teams and like I have recency bias. I mean, Jag and Jazz were incredible. Afghanimals got to love them. I mean, classics. I mean, you know, we got a Robin Amber. I mean, how can you not bring them up? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I definitely, it's definitely teams. It's a weird one. I've always, I've thought about two. How each of the shows sit with me in ways because like big brother, like I'm watching three episodes a week. It's so all consuming that like I feel like the actual like people and strategy of like you're like Derek's or your tailors coming back or people like that, those stick with me on some level more. Whereas like amazing race, it's becomes more about like the relationships and the journeys and the countries they've went to and the challenges less than I'm like this team strategized the best or things like that. It just exists in this place where it's like I'm almost I celebrate the show if that I don't know if that makes any sense what I'm saying. But it just it ends up falling in a different place. But certainly there are there are teams I've loved. Yeah. I think it's a little bit like to go to your sports history where I think that the amazing race, I think that you could watch a little bit more of like, okay, I'm just there for the actual program as opposed to and big brother, I think people really get locked in with their favorites. It's a very invested if they like if they're favorite person wins or not. Yes, for sure. So like an amazing race, you'll be bummed if a good team goes out, but it's like big brother. If you're like rooting for someone and they go out at five or something, you're just like, do I want to keep watching or like don't get me started on fire challenge in Jesse going home like stuff like that can be so heart wrenching where on amazing race, it's like you come in third place on amazing race, you still run to the mat with such joy on your face, which is just not at all what happens on the other two shows when you don't win the final vote. It's just a, it's a different thing, but again, I think it's why it lent itself so well to narrative where you know, they don't win, but it can still be a victory. It's more, it's more rocky one. It's like it doesn't matter like miracle. It doesn't matter that you didn't win because it's more about the journey than the victory. So spoiler alert for Deborah and DJ, they get eliminated. They don't even get to the mat. Phil has to come and get them as it gets late. You know, that's always something's gone wrong on amazing race when that happens. But then there's very sweet moment where DJ is going to tell Phil to give, give her one more chance to do it. I felt like that this is such a reality TV trope. This was going to be like, serif finally walking across the balance beam in this moment of trying even in loss, but ultimately it instantly gets the axe from the judge. Yeah, I will say not to to my own horn that was like the one ad when I read the script. I was just like, because again, I've, I've lived with these shows so much that I'm like reading it. And as I'm reading it, I can, I can hear the music playing like I can hear the underscore where she's just like, please Phil, this is just for us. Give us one more chance because those moments, those moments are so real. And I think so true to the show. And then to watch it go awry is just, it's just it's priceless. Yeah. I know that that was really, really fun. Had Jean or Caitlin did they had any experience with the amazing race before? Caitlin was a fan of the show. Jean, Jean, not as much, nothing against it. It had not. And it not cross Jean's path. But Caitlin at 100% was a fan of the show and was like, ready to go. She was so excited. Like there were points where Caitlin and I were like racing each other, like running up the hill. Like it was just so fun from moment one. Caitlin was just game for anything and just stuff like needing to explain like roadblocks or detours because you know what the script you want, you need to be accurate. Like they're reading these things and the other part is on the show like we had a big part was discussing like the point of view of the show. Like if we were just trying to actually do amazing race with Lucia has talked about, she wishes she could do a season six where the entire season was them on amazing race. Wow. So much other stuff because like each challenge you cut to fill like at the hill, explaining the challenge and how it works. And then we would cut to the theater and explain the clown routine. We didn't have any of that. So because we're like from the point of view of Debra and DJ, we're really relying on the clues. We're relying on things like that to explain to an audience who might not be familiar with amazing race. What is going on? So like if we're at the clue and Caitlin's reading it and Debra had any hiccopper like before we go, I knew Caitlin knew the show because Caitlin's like, no, this is a roadblock. What it means is one of only one of us can do the challenge. So I'm going to read it and then we'll go so like she was a, she was a helpful communicator there just in terms of making sure everyone knew it. And we also just like we did sort of have one of the at least one of those in every department. Like our transpo coordinator, Mike, huge fan of all these shows. So I was able to call him and be like, Hey, we're going to start with 12 teams outside of the Colosseum. We're going to do like one of those like shots where they're on like a Ford focus and like then you see 12 of them and he's like, okay, cool. Do you want all the same color or different colors? I'm like different colors. He's like, cool. So like there's no explanation. He watches the show. So he knows exactly what I'm talking about and we can just move forward. So like in my first, go ahead. You got it. No, it's just like in my first zoom with like a lease and like are like some of my first conversations with the camera crew. It was like, I don't want to be like overbearing. I wanted their feedback and stuff, but I was trying to make it very clear from the beginning. Like, it's like if you're playing Tetris, like can we just skip to level nine? Like I know the show pretty well. So my questions are going to be about like, have you guys already booked the taxis or are they flagging their own taxes? Can you show up at the airport or the red and yaggot yellow things on specific ticket counters? Or are they having to like get in a line and find their ticket counter? Does it depend on which airport it is? Like cheese challenge. We were thinking about putting up fencing on the sides, which I saw in one of them, but not the other. Is that something you would probably do? If the grass is high, are you like mowing it ahead of time or just going with what it is? And sometimes we with the judges at the clown challenge, a lot of debate on if the third, if one of the judges should have clown makeup on or not. Because like sometimes I've seen they would, sometimes they wouldn't. At least I was like, I don't think they'd have clown makeup. Okay, we took off the guy's clown makeup. So like we're we're communicating at each step to try to be like what's the most accurate way to do this. Would you feel like that Deborah and DJ picked the wrong side of the detour? It's tough because I do feel like needle and haystack is, which is what the other challenge was is like, that's the most common fill shows up. So getting stuck on that, I think for for a superfan, I think if you thought they were about to get stuck, that's probably the right direction you would expect us to go. But yeah, I think Debra was probably on to something that like DJ's anxiety and trying to remember a specific routine had a potential to rear its head and it did. It's exactly what happened. Yeah. They just, they couldn't get it right. So I don't know, I don't know that they would have been better. I mean, the other one was more luck based. So maybe they would have figured it out, but they also at that point, they probably would have made it to the mat. But I think they were, their journey was over anyway, because Trish and Jordan and the property brothers both crushed the clown challenge. So I think they were done no matter what. I don't know if it'll come back into the story at any point. Who do you think is going to win this celebrity amazing race? I think so the other fun part, which there were like three or four of us that were the most hyped for this was like building out the other eight teams that were all from like extras casting. So like duck dynasty team, like the Dallas Cowboy, one of the, one of those cheerleaders actually was a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. And then so I think the property brothers would do incredibly well. Well, that tends to be like the archetype for really like, they would do like tall athletic guys. Yeah. I think I'm I think that I think the cheerleader team would have done well. There were two guys that you you catch in a shot that initially were going to be they were swimmers initially on this. They were Olympics swimmers in the spreadsheet I made, but then they showed up. They looked more like professional golfers to me. Oh, I think they would have done pretty good. The housewife team where did a homage to, you know, Mike White's dad and some other people scooching forward with the cheese wheel. Not sure how well they would have done. Jordan and Tresha, man, they would have been good TV. They would have had an epic fall out somewhere in like an open market in like Albania or something. But I think as much as it's harder on amazing race, but I think as much as the producers could have tried to keep them on the show, they would have just because they be such good television. Jeff, you referenced the great Mike White, our colleague, both, you know, with that basically the missing link between us from reality TV to, of course, producing with HBO Max. Would you follow suit and appear on the amazing race? I thought about it. I've, so I have in my college years, I did apply for, I think I had applied for all three shows at some point in my 20s. Like I'd applied for the shows. Amazing race is, I know myself enough to know that I think I don't think I would do great on survivor or amazing race. At least said she thought I would do well on amazing, amazing race, which I appreciate. Who would you go with? Who's your partner? That's part of the question. The guy with the tattoo of your face. Well, there's potentially him. There's the guy who was the main guy in that movie who's a huge fan of these shows. We had applied. I feel, it was either amazing or a star. I feel like Big Brother at one point did an application with like someone you know. And one of the earlier seasons and he wanted to go on in character and I wanted to go on as myself. So we did apply for that. I just think I think I would do the best on Big Brother. I think my castmates would matter. I mean, I would just jump off the wall. I wouldn't even try any of the endurance challenges. But like amazing race or survivor, survivor wouldn't happen. I think I could do okay. I think I would do okay on amazing race. I'd be fine with like eating weird stuff or doing a zip line or going down top. Most of that stuff I'd be fine with. It's like, it's the moments of like Tucker with like the Greek alphabet or like Vinnie on this last season, a Big Brother. Like the crash out moment that I'm surprised those don't happen more. Like I've always, I'm like, how on these shows where these people who have like spent their whole life wanting to be on these shows, their dream has come true. They're there and they can't figure something out and don't know why they can't. Like a messed up puzzle, you know. And Christian, when that thing he thought he had one more before it slow motion goes into the water. Like man, I don't think I could ever live it down. That's my biggest thing. I think I would like go into a full mental health crisis afterwards, which I imagine people do. And I'm like, I don't know how I'd survive. That's my long way of saying, I'm saying no, but yeah, of course, if I could go on any of these shows, I would go on the show. The closest that I ever came with the amazing race was they did a survivor, a big brother amazing race where Colin and Christopher came back and ultimately won. And right, it was at the one that they won. That was 31. Yes. Yes. And Steven Fishback and I that they called to check the availability. But Steven was getting married. We couldn't we couldn't end up doing it. But considering the other day. Yeah, considering the other day that we were we were in an Uber and I put in a different address to where we were going than the actual. I don't even know what address we ended up at. And then we got out of the Uber and then Steven had like a mini crash out that he thought he left his wallet in the Uber until he found it like two minutes later. I was like, you know, this is why they missed TV gold, not putting us on. I am legit angry that that didn't happen and there's still time. You guys should totally do that. Can I tell you something rude that he said though? Oh, no, yeah. When we were talking about it, we were like, okay, he said, well, you have to do any any dangerous challenge where you might get where somebody might get CTE. I can't risk injury to my brain. Maybe he's maybe in a nice way he meant that you have so much brain. That if you shave a little bit off, you're okay. He was saying like he has his brain for actual. He is like, he is like, he is like, he could do what I do. Yeah. Now I think he meant it as a compliment. That's my. He did, he did not and that was rude and I take offense on your behalf. Jeff, any other thoughts on survivor 50? Are you able to keep up with everything that's going on? Well, I'm extremely caught up. This is the weirdest thing I have with my super fandom is that when I'm in production, my schedule is crazy to where I end up not being able to watch episodes when they come out. Then my algorithms all know like on YouTube and read it and everything how obsessed I am. They want to spoil the shows for me. They love it. I have subscribed and unsubscribed to your podcast so many times I can't explain because I don't want to get things ruined. Yes, but I have to block us. I truly end up having to like tell it like, you know, survivor and ponderosa on Reddit, I have to block them and unblock them. But I will say I'm not in production right now. So I'm active on 50. I am so afraid of what I think is going to happen that it's going to happen and I don't want it to happen. I want to serieto win so badly. I just want it to happen. I want Mowrashmore to be five people. I want her to win the show. And also not sure if this is how hot of a take this is. I'm not a big fan of fire. I wish there was like, I like it to like Mario party. Like I wish there were other dual challenges at four where it wasn't all the exact same game. Yes. Game at four. And so I'm just so afraid that seriet is going to get to four and get knocked out in fire, which like I already referenced it once when Jesse lost in fire. Yes. I stopped watching for a little while. Like wow. I kind of boy, I was so mad. Like I was so mad. How do you say this? I was writing so hard for him. He was like, it was like the combination. Sometimes I feel like you get good gameplay. You got a good strategy, good gameplay or you get good story. I thought he was like a perfect combo of the two. I thought he played really well. I thought it was such a good story. I was like, I was so happy. And then they're already like dropping the kernels that he's bad at fire. And I already am not a fan of fire like becoming mandatory. And I'm just like, please don't let this happen. You know, I've talked about this exact scenario. And I've also thought about this where Surrey could be headed in that trajectory. And then the thing that's going to be painful is that that was one of the things the fans voted on. And I just I can see the look on Jeff's face now when he says that, oh, the fans voted for fire. I guess they like it. Because 52% of people voted for it. We have a mandate. Oh, and like the hyper online people didn't vote for it. We didn't vote for it. The loud majority. And like I've had in my like day dreaming, I've had this moment of like they go to tribal and it wasn't voted on. And then they all like walks somewhere else for a different challenge at four. And it's something, I don't know, a puzzle, whatever it is and Surrey wins it. Or I mean, the greatest outcome, if this happens, then I'm just like blow up Rushmore, just make it one statue is Surrey wins in fire. Wow. Surrey wins at four in fire. That would be truly like the greatest outcome that's ever had. I mean, if Surrey actually won the fire making challenge at four, I mean, that would blow the balance beam out of the water of like that. That's what I'm saying. Like that's it. Yeah, that's it. Well, that would be really incredible. Jeff, what's next for you as the final season of Hacks? What's next? So we have after amazing race, we have five more episodes of Hacks. So very proud of it. I've been on it since day one. So we have we've had five seasons. So that's been incredible. [BLANK_AUDIO] - I'm sitting in the show. I really recommend it. I'm looking forward to get ready for this. I binge the whole first season and then I jumped ahead the season five but I'm very much looking forward to the ride of completing the middle. - Yeah, I think you're gonna really enjoy it. I think it's interesting because I was like a-- - It's my kind of show. - It's my kind of show too. I think I'm like one step away 'cause I didn't create it. I've worked on it from day one but I step enough removed away to say it's my favorite show on television. I'm really proud to be part of it. It's been such a blessing and incredible journey forever grateful to Lucia Paul and Jen who did create it, who have given me opportunities like directing this episode, which was a dream come true. And then other than that, it's, I'll keep working and I'll keep watching my three favorite reality shows. - Yeah, I'll say this, I think there's a lot of shows on television that call themselves comedies and it's sort of like in the category. The jokes per minute on hacks is up there with just about anything. It's a really, really funny show. So I really applaud everybody who works to make it because it's just like really great jokes. - There's a thing, the thing I really think that Jen Paul and Lucia do that I think is really smart is every scene, no matter how dramatic it is. And I think there are dramatic sincere emotional moments, always whether or not it ends up making it in the episode, there's always like a button or a joke or some humorous thing as a way to get out. And it just at its core, it is a comedy. It's a show about comedy and that's what it is. And so I think, you know, it hits you emotionally 100%, but I think especially episodes like this one are just such a fun and wild ride to go on with the characters. - Yeah. - Okay. Jeff, where could people keep up with what you're doing? - I'm on Instagram. Jeff underscore Rosenberg and then, yeah, that's basically it. All any new shows I'm working on, anything else I've got going on, everything I'll get posted there. - All right, well Jeff, thank you for coming on to talk about this. This was really, really fun for me to be able to get my hacks and doctrination and then to get caught up for the amazing race episode, which was really, really fun. - I mean, I mentioned it before, but this truly was the first thought I had when I was doing this episode. I was like, "Please, could I go on Rob has a podcast?" Like I listened to it all the time. This is so such an honor. - Yeah, thank you so much. And then if you are having checked out hacks, yeah, go ahead and check it out. - Jump, it's very bingeable. There's not enough shows that are, I have a lot of episodes in our half hour comedies that you can catch up on. So check it out on HBO Max. Is it just HBO again now or is HBO Max? - No, no, now we're HBO Max again. We were HBO Max, then we were Max, now we're HBO Max. - HBO Max. - Okay. - It's all so confusing. But if you've got strew, then it's also HBO Max is then available within all the other streamers, 'cause now they're all coming out the world so. - But you get the great check out hacks on HBO Max. Like that's good. If it was just hacks on HBO, you get a iteration, but it doesn't rhyme. - Yeah. No, that was the key thing. That's the reason that that's the-- - They kept it. They said they can't change it to get told. - I don't always rhyme. - After hacks. Yeah. All right, thank you so much for joining us. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye. 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