Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

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And it's moving like a balloon, moving very, very slowly. What the hell is that over there? When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it. How so? So I looked at it through binoculars. And then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went like that. Whoa. Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was ready to go. It was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not going to make it back. Keep going. Don't look back. And then I'm struggling to get up. And I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. And they began a clinical examination of me. So you were laying horizontally. What did the table feel like? Very sterile. Very sterile. An emergency room setting, in a way. What did the beings look like? A bulbous head with large eyes. No nose like us. Slit area in the chin. Are you freaking out? Freaking out? I'm beyond freaking freaked out. Do you know if you have RH negative blood? I do. There you go. And then they came for me. I was terrified. He kind of like reached up in the air with his long, thin, articulated arms. And he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened pocky puck. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins. And then I couldn't move my legs. Oh, my God. On his legs, for several years, hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on its legs. Whoa, really? And his identical twin brother, Jack, had tumors growing in the exact spots. Didn't even get a damn T-shirt. I mean. No souvenirs. Ignition sequence five. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that. Their existence cannot longer be denied. Jim Weiner, Charlie Foltz, thank you both so much for being here. I have followed your story for many years. And so it's an honor to be in person with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind-blowing in 1976 in Allagash in Maine. Yeah, on the Allagash water system, yeah. And it was you two, and it was your brother. His identical twin brother. My identical twin brother, Jack. And another guy. And another guy. Another guy, another friend. And, okay, so let's set the scene. What is going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid-20s. Well, I was a college student at the time, going to college on the GI Bill. And my goal at that time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children. So I was a dual major. I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the three months where I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to supplement my income. Well, that was where I was with my education. Jack and Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art, I think that year or the year before. Jack did. I never, I didn't go to, I wasn't at MassArt at that time. At that time, I was. Yeah. Was it the program in artisanry, which was a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute. And so you guys are both artists. What are you like? All of us were artists, all four of us. All four. And what are you like personality-wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy, or are you sort of humble and quiet? We're average. Yeah, we're average mid-20s, you know, males, you know. We were enjoying the experience of the wilderness. We had started planning a trip the previous year, acquiring gear, just slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need, plus the meals ready to eat type of pre-packaged food that we brought along with us as well. And you guys were pretty good outdoorsmen, right? Yeah. You guys had some skills when it came to kind of surviving outdoors on your own? Yeah, kind of, I mean. We grew up fishing out in the country, you know, doing fishing, camping, that sort of thing. Where did you live at the time? Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts? No, we were living in Boston. Yeah, I was going to college. I was living in Brookline, actually, at that time. And the twins were my next-door neighbors, literally. Yeah. Just on the other side of the driveway was their house. Yeah. So you guys have known each other for a very long time. Over 50 years. Yeah, over a half century. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean, at that time, I was studying ceramics at a program in artisanry. I was working with two amazing potters. One's name was Bill Sachs, who was a potter in western Massachusetts, out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named Rich, what was Rich's, Richard Hirsch, who was a master raccoon. A raccoon potter. And are you guys best friends? Oh, yeah. What, him and me? Yeah. I don't know this guy. Sounds like a one-way situation. Evil brother. Sorry, Jim, you got the short end of the stick here. Yeah, it's okay. I'm used to it. So you guys are, clearly, there's a lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation. Yep. What equipment we needed, what clothing, being prepared for the, the weather, because it was the end of the summer. And as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change. And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot and dry. It was one of the hottest August at the end of the year that they had had. So we had gear, uh, for it. The next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had, uh, we, as I said, had climbed Mount Katahdin, uh, two days prior to beginning our canoe trip. And, uh, when we were climbing up the mountain, I had to take my blue jeans, I had to take a knife and make them into shorts because we were so soaked with sweat, uh, from climbing up the mountain. Climbing the mountain that our clothing or mine was like grabbing me. And restricting my movements, hiking in jeans, never a good idea. Well, that's true. You can make them shorts though. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. You got innovative. So I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of inextricably linked with it. You can't kind of separate it is just the landscape of Allagash itself. Oh, absolutely. It's beautiful up there. Describe it. Well, originally the Allagash water system, which is now a national park system was originally part of the logging industry prior to logging trucks going out into the forest. You sent teams out in the forest, they would cut the trees, put them on the lake, float them. And that was, they were moved down the Allagash river all the way to like Fort Kent and Allagash, uh, the village of Allagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence. Is it there or St. Francis, St. Francis that separates Canada from the U S and, uh, they would run the logs down there. Uh, we ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip. We met an old logger. Uh, his name was Harry Smith. Really interesting character. Uh, told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you do. you had to do to unjam them. And that was incredibly dangerous because you had to get out there and pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. So, uh, the Allagash system, uh, still has part of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest, load up with limb lumber or logs and, and take them out that way as well. And now, uh, it is all just a recreational, uh, environment. Yeah. It looks very primitive. I mean, you don't, at least when we, the places we were at, you didn't see cuts, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like that. There's no houses along the lake. It's all just wilderness. I mean, gray herons are flying over all the time. You see moose, deer. Yeah. Bears, all kinds. All kinds of stuff. You have to, um, make sure you keep your foodstuffs off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. The, um, rangers come every day to collect your trash. So that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do when, um, before you even go there is you have to, they only have designated campsites. And so you have to tell the rangers what your itinerary is, like, so. In case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to- Start looking for you. Start looking for you. So, um, and they come and check you. The minute you land on the lakes, when we flew in, we flew in on a, uh, bush plane, um, within minutes, um, two rangers came and they come and they check your gear. They go through your gear to make sure you're not carrying any kind of contraband because the Allagash runs into Canada. And they check to make sure that, that you have enough food and camping things to survive up in the wilderness. Cause we were there for what, two weeks? Yeah. 17 days. So, you know, they're, they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway. And if you're not out at the end of like the 17 or 18 days, then, then they start trying to find you. Had either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life, had you? Oh yeah. You had? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Described. Jack and I, when we were kids growing, we grew up in the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. We used to have these things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room and we'd wake up in the night and there'd be something pulling the covers off our beds. Whoa. Um, or we'd see fit like figures moving around in the room. They, um, we saw, uh, balls of light, balls of light floating through the house on occasion. Did you ever communicate with any? Oh yeah, we did with our parents and they used to say, oh, you're having nightmares. Shut up. Did you communicate with any of the beings or the? No, no. We went straight to the bottom of the bed. Scared. Scared shitless. And your parents thought it was a ghost, didn't you? Harry, Harry the ghost? Yeah, we used to call him Harry the ghost. Ah. They used to call our names sometimes. Wow. Like I'd be in, in the room. In the room doing something and I'd hear this, Jim, a real deep voice. Jim, Jim. And I thought it was, I always thought it was my father. Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family? No, my father built the house himself. Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to this? No, but my parents, um, saw, uh, a bean in their bedroom one night. Okay. A hooded bean in their bedroom. A hooded bean. Which we never, I never knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her. Whoa. And then she reported it to Ray. And that. So she wasn't open about it with you. No. She was open about it to Ray Fowler. She was open about it to Ray. We'll get she, but he's a. Never mentioned it to us. Wild. So, um, you know, we used to have like, to be like knocking on the walls at night when we try to sleep. And if you go into our basement, um, we had a, my father had a little pool table in the basement. So family members, he had a large family, brothers and sisters. They would come to the house every other weekend or so. Back in those days, families like that's just what they did. Super random question, but do you know if you have RH negative blood? I do. There you go. Yeah. My dad did. And you did too. And your dad, not you, your dad did, but you did, you do. Jack and I both have RH negative. That's fascinating because that's a commonality among experiencers. This missing protein that seems to, for whatever, reason. Well, when we were, when we were like six years old, um, we both broke our arms like within a day of one another. Like when you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you, you know, wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one. It's like some entanglement. Yeah. It's like definitely entanglement there. Anyway, we had both broken our wrists and, uh, opposite arms, opposite arms, same fracture location in those days, literally entanglement. In those days, doctors came to your home. We had a family doctor that, you know, would come to your home if you call them. And so I was in just unbelievable pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they called the doctor and the doctor came to the house and he said, well, I'm just going to knock them out because if you can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out. So he gave me a shot of something to knock me out. And a minute later, Jack goes out cold. I don't know exactly what AG1 is doing in my body, but I do know that my microtubules are online. I'm not saying I can feel the force, but my chakras have definitely auto-aligned. In fact, I used to think I had seven chakras just like everybody else. And then I drink AG1. Now I have 50. Just kidding. 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And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house and they wanted to talk to my father and mother. And they claimed that they were from some institute somewhere that was studying twins and they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us. What institute? I don't know. Was it called the Roundtable Institute? I don't remember the name of it. Do you remember where it was? It may have been. Duke. Duke. The Ryan Institute. It may have been the Ryan, but I'm not. Don't quote me. But anyway, they claimed. What year was this? This was. So there are seven years, late 50s. Yeah. Well, the Ryan Institute ended in 1960. Yeah, late 50s. Anyway, my father freaked out and literally threw them both out of the house and said, if you ever come here again, or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will. That time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to MKUltra, but also they were interested in UFO stuff too. There was a guy named Andrei Puharich. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was an early kind of architect of MKUltra. He was a Northwestern scientist and I think he was a medical student there, but just got very interested in consciousness. And he had a place in Ossining in upstate New York, and he recruited what he called the space kids. And it was like a camp for high psychic ability children. And they would often channel these beings. They would call the nine, these sort of alien entities. The first set of what really were the space kids were younger. Some of them were seven years old, up to 12 or in teens. Interesting. So I wonder if you were being tracked by something. Who knows? Maybe they were tracking us. Did that eventually evolve? Into Montauk? So Montauk, I believe was, yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been the 50s, 60s. I believe that there was like this machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book, but Preston something. Could be. I had the book at one time and I've given it away already. Yeah. But no, but that's sort of, so the, I mean, that whole, the Montauk experiments, which we now think are probably real, inspired uh, you know, strange things happen. Stranger Things is, you know, hit Netflix show, which is around the DOE and national labs, basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with them. And Eleven, this character in Stranger Things, which is like the biggest show in the world right now, is based on this. So I do think, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. So maybe they were trying to recruit. They may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people at all. Google Chrome. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the Web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Yeah, I don't blame him. Yeah. So that happened when we were kids. And then in 1980. 1973 in the spring of 1973, I was attending Mansfield State College in upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York State Teachers College. And I was I was an undergraduate there and they were involved in this project with beavers because they were having problems. Every time a big storm would come through, they'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river up there. I forget the name of it, but it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside all around it. It's it's really up in an area of Pennsylvania. That's really wild. In fact, they they filmed the deer deer hunter movie. Is that the name of it? Yeah. Deer hunter. Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can you can walk for 75. Five miles in any direction up there and you don't see a single house. It's really, you know, primitive. Interesting. Anyway, so I was I was gotten they got me and two other friends of mine up there involved with this where they drop. They parachute beavers. They parachuted in beavers. Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water table, which I thought was a great idea. Because how else do you get into the water table when it's there's nothing there except trees and forest. And so what we had to do myself and my two friends was and they had other students doing this was we had to go out into like all these old logging roads and whatever and and find beavers and, you know, Marco, you know, put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine and we're driving around a little. VW a bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. We never I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back and it had just become nighttime and we were driving through a cow some pasture. It was this huge pasture with two ruts for track tractor ruts in it. We were driving and it was dark. So it was. But up there in that part of Pennsylvania, it's. What they call the night sky places. Where, like, you can go out and look. Clear skies. Clear skies or, you know, it's like we're. Virgin black. Virgin black. There's no light pollution. And so we were driving across. We were lost. And we were driving across this. Pastures, huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture, there was a tree line. And so we were going towards. And then I noticed I looked up above the trees and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the little dipper, except they were moving and they were moving in a really strange way. It was like instead of like just going in a constant plane pace or plane, they were tumbling like a slinky. They would this whole they were maintaining the the dipper shape. There was probably. Six or eight of these lights. They look like, you know, bright, bright stars. But they were tumbling end over end. And it was coming like right down towards where we were. And then we were like, I was like, what the heck is that? So I stopped the car. I said, we got to go out and look at this thing. So the three of us got out of the car and we're watching this thing. And it's just walking out of the sky, like right for us. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this. Car comes. Opposite us on this tractor. Right. So we're like, oh, Jesus. So the car gets around us. And then when when at one point it was like on a hill and when the car lights went up, it hit these lights up in the sky. And then they stopped coming down towards us and they started going parallel to us. And while they were they kept maintaining this tumbling thing, except they then they were changing shape like they were like they would go in. At one point, they were like a V shape. And then another point, it was more like an amoeba type shape. But it just kept tumbling end over end the whole time. So I said, let's signal it because it was only, you know, a thousand, maybe two thousand. Wasn't that far up in the sky. And so I had a flashlight. I had a flashlight in my glove compartment and I took the flashlight out and I blinked the flashlight. And all of a sudden, one of these starlight lights like went off like a big amber flashbulb. And it's like it turned into like a tube of light, almost like a blob of toothpaste kind of light came out of it. And then it did a couple more tumbles. And then it just. This is the first time I've ever seen anything. Like this, it was going like this tumbling. And then all of a sudden it was, it just reversed. It didn't stop and wait. You know, one blink of an eye, it just stopped and then reverse. It just reversed itself. And then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared. That was in 1973. Fascinating. Yeah. Wow. So that was a year before, or that was three years before this Allagash event. You had had like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences, multiple. Yeah. Except that we never, we never subscribed them to UFOs. I mean, we grew up in, you know, I was, I grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania. It was just like ghosts or weird. Yeah, ghosts or, you know. Lights in the sky. Lights in the sky, you know, it could have been, you know, helicopters from what we knew, you know, I mean, I didn't know what it was. And so we, nobody talked about UFOs and those, you know, I grew up in a family that was. It was very conservative, so like we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened. And then my father would say, oh yeah, that's, that's Harry, don't worry about it. It's only Harry the ghost. So he would casually, he would dismiss it, but he would casually, he had a name for this ghost because that's how much it would appear. We called him Harry. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So you guys, let's cut back to 76. You guys are at Allagash, you know, sort of beautiful. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you, you know, to camping out there. You get there. At what point do you start canoeing? Well, right after we climbed Katahdin, which was the first three days we were in Northern Maine, went down to Millinocket. Uh, and got some supplies, uh, then climbed Katahdin, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Millinocket, and we drove north and east of Baxter State Park to a outfitter at Shin Pond and at Shin Pond, uh, a friend of ours. In fact, the guy that came down this last Saturday, uh. We were using one of his canoes, uh, a friend of ours named Charlie had lent us, uh, a Grumman, uh, aluminum canoe for our trip and had taken it to Shin Pond. And this guy had, had it strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and the canoe. That's all you could put in that little plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen. I had a Volkswagen Beetle. I had a far more complex instrument panel than this airplane had. Yes. Uh, it was, it was, I mean, it was as simple as simple could be. You got a choke, you got an oil pressure gauge, and you got a gas gauge, and that was it. We had two canoes, the one that our friend loaned us, and then we brought another. Rented one, yeah. Describe your first anomalous sighting on the canoe. Well, the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lakeside. We were on checkpoints. Chamberlain Lake. And that was a lake that runs north-south. And we were going north and we were trying to get up to the Allagash River or the Allagash Stream, which flows in from Allagash Lake. And that is totally primitive up there area. The only way you can get up there is by poling up the river. And we didn't know how to pole, but we attempted paddling and paddling, but it didn't do us any good. However, to get back to the first sighting, we had passed two teenagers on our way north and they were fooling around on a little island. And we got up to this site called Mud Pond. And we didn't want to camp with other people. There were people across from us in a sheltered, area from the wind. And we had decided to take this one spot. But when we got up there, the wind was like just coming down on us like crazy. And we're like, we don't want to be dealing with this all night long, trying to put our lean-to shelter together. Because all we had was a big tarp that we used as a tent, you know, because you can use tarps for multiple purposes. And we were using it for shelter and as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well, at any rate, the weather forced us across the lake where this other group of campers were. And they had asked, had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier? And we told them where we had seen them. And so they were getting worried because, you know, there's two teenagers, a member of their group. Well, and it had gotten dark by this time. So out there, it's so black at night. You can't really see your face. You can't see your hand this far in front of your face. So we were out with them as well, looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water, seeing if we could find them. And they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned. And a member of this other group said, what the hell? And we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light and it's moving like a balloon moving very, very slowly, but it's like moving into this wind. So I'm trying to figure out. Yeah, it's just above the treetops. Yeah. I was trying to figure out like, what the hell is that? But then we spotted these kids and so, okay. And we looked back at this light and it wasn't there. So- And we looked at it through binoculars because it had, when I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it. How so? It just didn't look right to me. It didn't, it wasn't like a pure white. It was more like a yellowish white and it, it, there's just something about it that didn't seem right to me. So I looked at it through binoculars and, and then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went, like that, like a, like a, a lens closing in on itself and then it just vanished. And I thought, well, that's, that's kind of weird, but I didn't think anything more about it because we were, we had to set up camp. So, you know, it was just this weird light, but I had never seen a light do that before. Like just implode in on itself. Wait 48 hours. You'll see it. And what was odd, which we, we didn't know at the time, but it was like the, the direction that it was in line to us was over Eagle Lake. The area that we were camping at two days later. So it was almost like it was where you were going. It was like patrolling that area or something. It was patrolling the area. That's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fravor from his 2004 Nimitz incident. And he says, you know, we were, you know, dispatched, to go check out this Tic-Tac object. And then the Tic-Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like, they sort of know your intent or some of your trajectory. Or it had been there for a while because there was a, there was a witness, a logger who had witnessed this same craft up in that same area that they were logging. Fascinating. Okay. So you guys kind of, you know, note that this is an, an anomalous, but you don't, you try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're not there to see a light disappear in the night sky. I mean, we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for the just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. Well, well that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we just turned in, got up the next morning and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried, tried to get up to Alley Ash Lake. Do you guys even talk about the first sighting? No, not really at all. No. Okay. No. I mean, it was, uh, was like, uh, I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing. Yeah. So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, right? Yeah. I said, well, this is, this is a strange light. And when it kind of winked out, I thought, well, that's kind of weird, but I mean, maybe, maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something. And that's just the way it went. Right. Okay. Okay. So then the next day after that, we had canoed up, tried to get to Alley Ash Lake, but found it impossible. We'd spent like eight hours trying to go upstream until we got to a point where we said, well, we're not even at the halfway mark. We turned around and it took us, uh, about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp, uh, right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake portage area. So it was a three quarter of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. So how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles, uh, ran perpendicular to the canoe. And, uh, uh, then the four of us would just pick up the ends, uh, and with the canoe in between us, and then walked the canoe over to the other lake, went back and retrieved the second canoe, and then got out on the water. And we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal. It was kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake towards the Southern end of it. But there was a canoe about, I don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us. And that is where he built the canoe. And it was a B, B lined straight too. So we're like, well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary, which was Smith Brook campsite. We set up our camp for the night and then we decided, Hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement and have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we built a fire that we knew would burn. for close to three hours and went out on the lake. And we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water. And it took us maybe about 25, 30 minutes to work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at, which was maybe about 500 yards from our campsite. Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. And all we had was paddles and fishing poles and that was it. You know, and a flashlight. So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and, you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, what the F is that? As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a health care center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is. Iris Store's Illumina Face Mask. Some billionaires are rejuvenating in underground light pods. 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Right now, you can get the Elite Plus Illumina Face Mask Bundle at an exclusive deal when you use it. use code JESSE at iRestore.com. That's JESSE, J-E-S-S-E, at iRestore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe, and I see this aspirin tablet-sized white circle, and I'm thinking, that is the frickin' moon, you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving, and it was moving faster than the moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here, and it's hundreds of yards away from us. And so we just sat there bewildered looking at this thing, and then it kind of like makes a left turn, and then it starts coming straight toward us. Totally silent. Yeah, and so we're watching it and watching it, and then we notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated, and this thing's only about 15 feet above the tops of the trees, just coming straight toward us. And when it was about, well, less than 100 yards away from us, directly across, I thought, I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights, with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned the light on, and then I, three short, three long, three short, and then this thing stopped. I mean, it just, no sound whatsoever, just stopped moving. And all of a sudden, this big cone of light, blue light, like a neon blue, but it looked like a giant glass straw, you know, looked like it was open, a void in the center of it or something. And this light starts from the bottom of this sphere coming out across the lake toward the canoe. And that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time. This thing was big. It was as big as a two-story house. Wow. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was, like, huge. Wow. And how far away? It was, like, under 100 yards from you? When I flashed a flashlight, but when I. When I dropped the flashlight, it was about 75 yards from us and closing. Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it came closer? Yeah. And all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming, paddle, Charlie, paddle. Uh-huh. And as I said, if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would have been doing that. What emotions are going, going through you guys at this point? Well, I was terrified. Self-survival. Self-survival. It was, like, weird. I do not want to deal with this out here. Yeah, I don't know what this is, but I know as much as I really want to know at the moment. That's right. Because it was, you know, it was big. Yeah. It was huge. Yeah. And you're, like, uh-oh, that's not a helicopter because it was absolutely silent. Yeah, and it wasn't disturbing the trees or the water. I mean, you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away. Yeah. And this thing didn't make any noise at all, and it had this weird kind of life to it. Like, it was roiling. The surface of the lighting of it. The surface of this thing was, like, roiling. It was alive. It was like it was some sort of plasma. Like a plasma pressure cooker. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Something going on inside. Yep. Well, you know, one of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon. Yeah. Right? Sure. This thing had a halo around it as well. Mm. As it approached us, you could see the definition of this halo. Mm. And the sphere itself was, you know, in constant motion. Yeah, and I remembered, you know, you're, like, paddle. Well, the other guy with us, he was just, like, catatonic. He just sat in the- With the paddle across his legs. With the paddle across his legs and just- He just stared out. And we're like, paddle, paddle, paddle. And he just- It's like, sort of help us a little here. So, Charlie- What's his name, by the way? This other guy who's catatonic? Chuck. Yeah. And- It's the reason I go by Charlie, so there's no confusion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're like, Chuck, paddle. And he just sat there staring out into nothing. And so- It seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that Jack and Jim and I, we're standing on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach. Yeah. And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake. Didn't Chuck also, prior to this, feel like you guys were being watched? He had some ominous- That's what he said, yeah. Yeah, that's what I said. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore, at the camp, was looking back to see where this thing was. And I thought, well, it's still like 70 yards away, except it was like, instead of being back here, it was like right there. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at the- Campsite. Went up on the shore of the campsite. So there's a little blackout period. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. A little sort of missing time. Well, yeah, but I mean- In your memory, at least, where- Well, I mean, but the thing about it is, is in the total context, we weren't aware of anything like this- At the time. At the time. But now recalling it, you remember this bright plasma-like object 75 yards away. Oh, no, no. We remember the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night. And then you remember that, and then it just sort of flashes directly to like, you're going up onto shore and to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory. No, no. As a matter of fact, I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire. And that was all that I was, that was my goal. My objective was to reach that site. Because that was the only indicator of where a campsite was. Without that campfire, you know, the shoreline is identical at night. It's dark. When you're going onto shore and the campfire, as in sight, do you guys feel differently physically than kind of before you blacked out a little bit? Well, this was the kicker when we got to shore. The three of us were standing on this, in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time, all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake, it ascended up and away at a 45-degree angle. Yeah, I remembered when we got onto the shore, turning around to see where it was. And I remember it hovering right over the water. And this cone of light was coming down on, so straight down under it, on the water. Really? Like it was, there was a beam coming out. Like it was sitting on a beam of light and it was close. I remember thinking if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock. And it was only about 40 feet above the surface of the water. And the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass. Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remember looking at this. Well, that was when it went up in the sky. Yeah, and then it just went, and then it. And when you could see it sort of close up, could you make out how big it was and the shape? It was circular? It was still spherical. It was spherical. It was still oily. It was like maybe two and a half story house. Give a sense of the diameter. Triple, triple decker. Yeah. Triple decker. 80 feet in diameter. Like 80 feet in diameter. Yeah. Yeah. Easy. And was it always a kind of white light or did it change colors? That's how I remember it. Kind of a whitish yellow. What? The, the, the best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb. Look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw as I can think of, for example. Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of, you know. Just zooms off. Goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us. Yeah. When it went, it, it flew weird. I remember it's a reminder. It reminded me of, like, when you have a frisbee and you're tossing a frisbee back and forth and sometimes the frisbee will go at a certain and then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again that's how this thing it was like it was going up a stairway what happens when you get back to camp well this is while we're in camp watching this thing going up okay for some reason i felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed so i took the flashlight which i was still holding in my hand once i had signaled it the second time and i looked at the sweep hand on my watch noting to where the sweep hand was for the second hand then i looked back up at this thing and then it shot off into the night sky so i didn't observe it skipping i just meant that probably happened when i was looking at my wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist wrist watch the night sky so i didn't observe it skipping i just meant that probably happened when i was looking at my wrist wrist watch but when that thing took off within eight seconds of the time i spotted the sweep hand till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in the night sky eight seconds had elapsed and i turned and i looked at the campfire the campfire had flames about one inch high the campfire had completely burned out but i didn't say oh my god what happened to the fire i didn't say oh my god what happened to the fire i mean because fires burn out you expect that but i was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted so i asked everybody should i throw some wood on the fire and build it up and they're like fuck the fire man i'm exhausted i'm going and i all of a sudden just felt exhausted so it was like that adrenaline that puts you into the afterburner rocket across the fire and they're like fuck the fire man i'm exhausted i'm going and i all of a sudden just felt exhausted so it was like that adrenaline that puts you into the afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline safety that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you that's the way it felt like but you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off that you felt like i did sort of i did but i didn't i didn't know why at that time it took uh uh us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that the fire is significant too right yeah yeah extremely so so so explain that well the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing so it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore but it seemed like only took a few moments for us to get back to shore and when we got back to shore the fire was extremely extinguished so that was a three-hour period of time that is that missing time that everybody talks about and the the fire initially was set you know it was an intense fire it was yeah yeah yeah it was it acted like a lighthouse uh-huh because i mean you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night because as as he had said before you know you can feel the heat from your hand but you can't see your hand so it was this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances correct yeah it's going to be big yeah yeah and so it's not so big that it would start a force well i mean if it would have been windy that would have been a different thing but it wasn't windy at all that night concerned about it i mean it's called a long burning fire or sometimes an upside down fire you build it to last to burn a long time rather than quickly and the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or you know all but out uh shows you that maybe there was some some some missing time involved well we didn't think about it that was so weird because fires burn out this is a this is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together yeah in fact we hadn't even you know made that connection it was ray follower that made the connection he said this is missing time where you knew you were paddling toward a fire a fire that you were looking at but yet when you got there the fire was out that's also a common trope with alien abductions you have you know travis walton coming back with a fully grown beard yeah uh you know and actually it was one year before you guys right it was 75 75 uh nine months nine months before us yeah and i had never heard of travis at that time about travis oh yeah we didn't know about anybody back we didn't know travis at that time about travis oh yeah we didn't know about anybody back we didn't know about anybody it was all new yeah which is one of the reasons we were so intent as i said to james to share this knowledge with the world i mean you know this hey something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt and i can't do nothing about it i want people to know you know did you did you guys report it to oh yeah when the ranger came to collect our trash we said hey you know did anybody see anything weird uh-huh uh last night and he's like what what do you mean i have that main accent you know we so we told him what we saw and he was like he kind of gave us this weird look yeah i said well i don't know what you guys were smoking last night no he didn't say that you are stop you know and we were like no this this is something that we really saw this thing was like how could you how could somebody else not see and in fact we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system we said hey did you see anything weird you know last night or a couple nights ago they said no we were all in bed by you know and you guys had six more days right on the hiking on the no no we had like about two more weeks you guys had two more weeks on this trip yeah so so how much does this change the dynamic between you guys are you guys talking about this a lot well that night we didn't talk about one word we just more or less all drifted off and we were like oh my god we're off forget about the fire everybody said so we all drifted off climbed in our sleeping bags and you know close your eyes and then the next morning as we're breaking camp and eating the only thing we could talk about was this thing what the hell was it it happened to me in the woods i was hiking solo new year no phone no gear i was just trying to find myself that's when i saw it something glowing silent descending through the trees a ufo and stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android it was me but better same face same great hair but something was different this guy had perfect posture he was wearing the perfect jean and they start at just 79 six fits sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond now 2026 me where's the perfect jeans they don't crush my thighs or my dreams they're soft but dangerous for a limited time our listeners get 15 off their first order plus free shipping at the perfect jean dot nyc or just google the perfect jean and use code jesse 15 for 15 off that's 15 off for new customers at the perfect jean dot nyc with promo code jesse 15 after you purchase the perfect jean you'll be able to get a free copy of the perfect jean and get the perfect jean they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you your khakis and get the perfect jean what the hell was it and we immediately said well i had to be a ufo because i said it's nothing military because i'm familiar with what we have militarily i've been in enough hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter well it didn't make any noise it was totally silent and as it flew off it had to be going faster than the speed of light and it was going faster than the speed of light it just had to be because that's how quickly it speed of sound accelerated yeah yeah so no no sonic mock one but no boom no boom totally almost feels like it's gliding through space time or something yeah i don't know how you know breaking newton's third law how it does that but there was no sonic boom and that thing took off like charlie said all you saw was a streak behind it how how much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks so you talk about the next day oh the next year everybody that we knew yeah literally everybody that we knew and a lot of people that we didn't know we shared this experience of the seeing this thing and being chased by it by week two are you guys starting to speculate about ufos non-human intelligence aliens no i mean we we just said it was a ufo because it doesn't it didn't move like anything i'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with like shooting off into the night sky the way it did and we didn't have any sense of contact with any beings or anything like that it was just this weird craft that we saw sauce and chased us across the lake scared the crap out of us and and then we were off and gone but to yeah to get back to me shining the flashlight to put that in a little bit of contact and then we were off and gone but to get back to me shining the flashlight text. Remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines yeah and i worked with reactor system submarines uh operate with a bubble of air inside the between the outer hull and the inner hull they have a bladder like fish have a bladder and you fill it full of air to maintain a certain depth well apparently when i was on board this craft inquired about their power system, you know, because I was curious about it. And it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air. They can match gravity fields. So if you set it for, you know, like minus X, that might be like, 80,000 feet up in the sky and set it for minus one and you're 12 inches above the water. And they can move between the, in fact, the encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California in 2004, they had a craft at 80, I think it was 81,000 feet. It was like over 15 miles straight up in the air. And they sent planes up to that area. And when they could just start seeing it on their instruments, it dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under one second. I think it was, it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000 feet and seven eighths of a second. And then, yes, it, then it zoomed up to over 80,000. So, yeah, I mean, that's another thing that kind of disturbs me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you're reading information, you get a lot of conflicting information. Well, I think, I think you're actually right because, well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said. And then the, you know, I think maybe visually. Visual, yeah. But, but it is like, I've heard podcasts on the Allagash many, many times. They're always getting their facts wrong. Yeah. And they're mixing this person up with that person and. Yeah. Well, even radar. They did that in his book. He kept getting Jack and I mixed up. So, so you get back, you see your families. What do you, what do you say to them? And, and how do they react? Well, I mean, half of my family believed me and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. Hmm. You know what squirrel bait is, don't you? No, it's squirrel bait. Nuts. Ah, that's funny. There you go. So, but over the last 50 years, and especially, most, especially over the last, uh, 15 years, uh, there's so much more information coming forward. Hmm. Uh, so many more reliable, credible people are coming forward. Uh, like the prime minister from Canada for Paul Hellyer came forward describing, uh, his UFOs, uh, the information he had, the, uh, supreme air force commander of the Belgian, uh, military. And, you know, decades ago, way before, uh, we were even aware of Ray Fowler, um, came forward, said these things, uh, were real. Like Gordon Cooper? Well, Gordon Cooper, uh, who was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts, uh, Jim and I gave a presentation in, uh, Portsmouth, Maine in 1995. Was it? It's either five or six. And, uh, 96, I think it was. Yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. And we had, we spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957 that, uh, he was on the base and they had a craft land physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer with a 16 millimeter movie camera, and he was shooting film. 35 millimeter photographer was shooting film and a four by five press camera photographer. And he said, when they drove straight out, there was this, uh, sort of like, uh, kind of like a tic-tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod. And when they approached the legs, like retracted back into it, and then it just went straight up in the air when they were within about three or 400 yards. It just went vertical. Vertically straight up. And I said, well, what did the films look like? Gordon said, never saw them. Soon as we got back, they were all confiscated. And the saucer flew right over him and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed. And they went out there, um, picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming. And he left it off, put the gear back in the well. And, um. Climbed out at a very high rate of speed and disappeared. That is so nuts. Yeah. Well, he, I think, spent more time in space than anybody prior to him in the Mercury. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was one of the Mercury seven. Yeah. Fascinating. Did he say anything else to you? Well, about seeing, uh, when they were orbiting, he saw, uh, well, not they, uh, each astronaut orbit by themselves and, you know, cause they only had seven astronauts only had seven capsules. So, uh, Cooper said that he had witnessed, and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control and then they, like, they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies. Um, who the hell did we meet? Some guy from Australia that, um, had been recording. And when they switched to a different channel, he was able to switch and cause he knew where that channel was. And he switched over to that channel and he, uh, recorded, uh, some, uh, of the, uh, the interchange going back and forth. It's, it's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there, but it was just enticing. And it's, it's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there, but it was just enticing. The circles are expanding now. Yeah, I think that's right. And, but Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting earth. Yeah. As an astronaut. Yeah. In the Mercury missions. Right. That's amazing. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. And he had seen that one in, before the Mercury program, because the Mercury program didn't start until I think like 59, 58, 59. And, uh, so by 1969, when we landed on the moon. I was stationed over in Europe. Uh, I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, you know, it was a nighttime for us over there. All the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching, uh, the astronauts on the moon. So we all grab our beers or whatever we were drinking and we went out in the streets. Thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers. Now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there. That's funny. So, so, but did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting earth with the other astronauts or. Uh, just that it had come, uh, in proximity with him. And I think he said it was green if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. I might be confusing that with. Other at other astronauts that had had, uh, encounters. So you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus, right? For 12 or so years. Yeah. We never really started, um, looking at it until the late eighties. So what, what exactly kind of spurred catalyst? What was the catalyst to Jim and Jack both at the same time in two different places? Well, I think the catalyst was Jim and Jack, uh, in two different states. Jim lived in Massachusetts, Jack in Vermont with his wife, they both started experiencing these identical nightmares. were identical but well for lack of a better word they were identical in as much as they had the same four people the two twins me and the other guy yeah and so back to the entanglement thing you guys are experiencing the same yeah things at the same time he would but even then we didn't know what was going on i remember he used to say man i had like a really strange dream last night where there were like these things these like humanoid things and and i was like yeah jack come on it's a nightmare you know i have them too yeah i have the same kind of dreams it's just a nightmare don't worry about it and it was you charlie jack and chuck in the dream just like yeah it was you four at allagash exactly yeah that well that was the only time that we had ever done anything together like that i mean and so the dream is just you guys are sitting there and you what what happens like being in a doctor's office um strange things were being done to you with no explanation so are you guys on a craft well we we somewhere with after the hypnotic regression we discovered that yeah we it seems we were on this craft apparently so you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or flashbacks you know um point to something else having occurred and then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression jim had had an injury uh and he developed epilepsy temporal epilepsy and he was having a lot of seizure activity so he was at the beth israel hospital uh being followed for that and they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him and he had all these wires glued to his head and they said while you're waiting around you want to read a book or anything and he said yeah yeah so they brought in a tray of books and and and one of them was uh whitney streber's communion and when i saw the face on the cover i flipped out yeah i was like why why are you giving me this book to read i don't want to read this and i like i for some reason i didn't really know why it was just like this face just negative reactions had this extreme negative reaction and i was like why are you giving me this book to read and i didn't want to have anything to do with it and i made a big scene and then a few minutes later one of the neurologists came in and said uh jim what just came down here and i was like i don't want to talk about this and he was like well um it's kind of weird don't you think and i was like i don't care what you call it you know it's like i don't know i just don't like this i don't want to look at this book anymore it was like a visceral allergic reaction more like a visceral reaction to it and um i got really upset and then you know this is oh by the way common for people experiencers to see the cover specifically of communion whitley streber's book and a lot of stuff cut bubbles back up comes up comes back up and sometimes it's this and then other times it's like uh whoa that looks familiar yeah yeah and and so he he left and and after that the test was done the eeg um he came in he said you know i'm going to ask you a kind of personal question and i said fine what do you want to ask he said have you ever seen a ufo and i remembered like looking at him like what the heck is going on here and i said well yeah as a matter of fact i have yeah and he said oh you want to talk about it and i said um not really you know i really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures you know i'm having these problems with seizures and i think that's a little bit more important than talking about ufos and he said well you know i know this guy one of my professional people i know who turned out to be john mack no way yeah yeah who's this neurologist he's uh what was his name jonathan silverman i he was affiliated with harvard yeah and harvard medical school yeah yeah so um did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor no i thought he was an honest actor and um and so uh i said uh well yeah you know i i have had a ufo experience and and i was telling him about these nightmares that i was having thinking they were seizure activity and he said you know jim i think you really need to talk to somebody like john mack or somebody who deals with people who have seen ufos i could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so i wouldn't flip out again because i was i was not happy and so i said uh you know i really i really want to just concentrate on the seizures you know let's concentrate on a seizure so i tried to avoid it for a while and then a few days later he came into my room and said look you know this guy named ray fowler raymond fowler is gonna he's a ufo investigator and he's going to be at this um conference uh which was pretty close to where carol and i live now the library marriott hotel there was a marriott hotel near us and he said he's going to be doing he's going to be speaking at this uh or he's going to have a book stand or something like that at this thing and i i want you to go and talk to him and i was like i don't want to talk to him and he said look you really i really want you to do this so he talked me into doing it and that's how i met ray fowler and i remembered when i met him he was selling some his books and he said oh yeah your doctor talked called me and and so i'm expecting you and i said you know and he goes uh well why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this ufo that you saw so i told him about it and at first i thought he was bored you know it's like oh yeah i've heard this a million times you know and then i said i'm my charlie and myself and my identical twin and then he went what did you just say and i said charlie and i and this other guy and my identical twin he said oh you have an identical twin and i said yes and then he said oh yeah okay i want you to start all over again and then i could tell he was giving me his attention so why was why was that somehow i don't know this role and you got a base population and a control population if you're going to do any type of medical experimentation so that's interesting identical twins yeah that boat that's interesting i also think from an investigatory perspective if he's speaking to you first he can get your whole testimony then he can isolate your brother yeah and then get the same testimony and kind of you know compare and contrast and so it's probably from his vantage point you know uh the potential for high confidence is really there yeah which is exciting and and that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions you know we filed a report that was the first thing we did and then he said you know would you like to do hypnotic regression have you ever done you ever been hypnotized i said no i'm not even sure i can be hypnotized i mean isn't that kind of a controlled show something some kind of weird thing you know that people believe in but it's not really it's not science you know it's not science it's not it's not accepted in a court of law so i mean how could it be legitimate he's like no it's just kind of this like super relaxed state you know it's not no big deal so i said yeah sure we'll do it so we all four of us agreed to undergo um regression multiple regressions sessions and then we promised we agreed that we would not talk about them between us we would not report anything we remembered from these sessions so no collusion no collusion totally isolated yeah and what comes out of the regression session pretty similar stories yeah something that i didn't think that happened at all i thought was christ somebody there's nothing to this story we're out fishing this weird light came up on top of us we paddled away we shine a flashlight at it it flew away that's the whole story the whole end nothing to it so after being hypnotized then i was totally quiet with myself even i didn't even talk to myself i'm for like the next four hours i'm just trying to absorb and accept what i had just re-encountered that i didn't know that i had encountered to begin with yeah why the fire had burned out why i knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed uh because of its power source works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this plasma ball that's glowing 75 yards away and then you guys kind of walking onto shore? Well, the first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking, well, that's odd. What the hell happened to my socks? And then I'm thinking, where the hell are my shoes? Where the hell are my clothes? And the fast thinker that I am, then it's like, where the hell am I? And I'm like getting cold and freaked out and I'm like looking around. And just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus. And in my mind, I'm screaming. I couldn't articulate, but I'm like screaming, get off your asses, get over here, help me, get me loose. You know, what's going on? And at that time, I was probably about a first degree black belt in martial arts, Shotokan karate, Goshin Jitsu, Ishiru, Pukulan, and Aikido. So I studied mostly Aikido for many years. But at any rate, I could take care of myself in a fight. You know, I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons and I defended myself successfully. But here I am, butt naked, and I'm as helpless as an infant. I just, it was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while. And then I, I'm struggling to get up. And I had that sensation of movement. I look up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. So I dropped my head, didn't move as way as quickly as I could. And I probably only moved my head like another three or four inches till I was making contact with the surface I was laying on. And I couldn't go backwards any further. On a table, yeah. On what? Uh, kind of like a chilly, like this room is chilly. Yeah. It felt chilly, uh, very sterile, uh, very much like, uh, an emergency room setting in a way. And then, uh, I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head and it was over my chest. And it basically covered, my entire torso. And then this blue light came straight down out of it. And it had like definite dimensional quality to it. The light did. I mean, it isn't like, like take your flashlight or anything and you shine it in the light spreads and travels. This was focused. It was localized in to one shape. And that was emitted straight down onto my torso. And there were like two beings to my left, uh, doing whatever to this panel. I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began a clinical examination of me for lack of a, uh, another term at all. What did the, the beings look like? Like, what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours leaning down? Yeah. Well, I got, I got artwork of it in the computer, but, and, and it's in the book as well. Uh, a sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us and no mouth like us. It was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding. They were like just a, a lump and, uh, not like a lump or a blob or anything, but like a slight bump out from the skull. Freaking out. I mean, here I was an individual. I mean, hell, I defended myself against, against seven armed kids in Boston a number of years ago. I had seven kids come at me with weapons and, you know, I, I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in judgment. Just, I just had to let them know that they had truly made one. With your words and with your, uh, your moves. Well, yeah, I, I let them know a thing or two. So there you go. But, but at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything. So, I mean, at that moment on that craft, um, but I was told not to resist, not to fight. I wasn't in any danger, just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, oh, I can do that. Were you told telepathically? Yeah. When I was, well, you, you've had the experience of being on a roll, a coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around your shoulders. Sure. I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind. When I looked into these eyes, it was like, uh, two magnets grabbing one another instantly. And I mean, it was like, I understand what you're asking of me. Uh, uh, I'm, I believe you instant instantaneous comprehension of their intention. Absolutely. Interesting. Absolutely. And so I'm there like, well, okay, well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released. So, all right. Were they gray in color? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They were grayish in color. Do you remember how tall? Uh, under five feet, uh, spindly. Uh, uh, uh, uh, their hands had four digits, uh, uh, not five or three as are portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films. Hmm. Uh, their hands had four digits. It hangs straight down and the center of the hand had like an articulation ability. So they would have four opposable digits where we only have one or thumb. Uh, these, these beings had four opposable digits. And that was the way all their technology was geared to toward their hands. Hmm. Uh, just like our world is designed because of our hands, how our hands work to use tools. Hmm. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle, from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Ready to make anything online. Makes sense. There's no place like Chrome check responses, set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18 plus. Um, but, uh, they had like a clothing on. It was, I didn't, for lack of a better word, it's like a spandex type of appearance where like, tightly conformed to their body. Um, but they also, uh, one of them also had this wand, uh, like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so. Hmm. Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do. I'll go back to the, the canoe when we were paddling back to the, towards the beach. Uh, the campsite, the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft like right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe, but under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on like literally on top of us. And that this beam came down around the canoe and it was a hollow. Like Charlie said earlier, it was, it was like a tube where our hose, uh, where the sheath of the hose is made out of light. And it was moving. Like when you see, um, dust moats through sunlight, you know, it's moving. That's had this quality to it, but the inside was dark. And I remembered looking up straight up into the top of this tube and it was dark in there, but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there. And I remember thinking, oh shit. This is bad and then. The next thing I remembered was being in a room. Chuck, Rack, and Charlie were sitting on this bench. And I think I remembered I was standing near it. And Jack was out in front of me with these beans. And then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it, like the end of your finger. And he was pointing it at Jack. And they were taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see how it rotated. I thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were trying to twist and turn it all these different ways. And I was like, oh, cripes, man, they're going to break his arm. And then they had lifted his head back and they were examining his throat. And they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight, like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with. And then I remembered them walking him away into this other area. It was like a hallway or something. And they took him in through there and then they came for me. And they were doing the same thing to me. And then when they went to walk me through this area, I didn't want to go because I was terrified. I thought, that's it. We're going to get dissected. This is not going well at all. And I didn't get any messages saying, just relax or we're not going to hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this doorway or into this. I didn't want to go through this other area. And one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib, in between my ribs, you know. And I was like, then I got, I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was going to be in trouble, that I had to cooperate. Was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything? Or removal of anything? Well, I remember them taking sperm sample. And then at one point I remembered, this was over two sessions. The first session, the first hypnotic session, I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces. I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session, their faces. And then the faces finally came through. And I remember screaming, they're bugs. They look like bugs. And they had this kind of, it looked like a shape of an ant, you know, that had a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front. No nose, slit for a mouth. And I couldn't tell if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. And I thought they looked, they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head. Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other? Any details that were inconsistent between your accounts or did they all line up? Some small details were different. Like I remember the device that they used to get the store, the semen. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom. And there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck. But like when they took the semen from me, I was like, I was so terrified. You know, my Johnson was like three inches inside of me. It was like, you are not getting there. And so then I had this. I got this impression that things are going to, you better change your ways or, you know. So I actually like forced myself to get that erection. And then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in. Whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a wand coming, like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it. That they actually inserted into his penis to get the sample. So that was different between his recollection and my recollection. Or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever. Yeah, it could have just been because of the way, I mean, I remembered they let me sit up to do it. I remember saying, I can't do this laying down. I got, you know, let me sit up and then I was able to function. And then there was another time. I don't know. I don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not. And I can't remember, but at one point I remembered laying on a, on a, on a table and there were two, two beans at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet and two next on either side. And I remembered thinking, I mean, I was terrified and I didn't trust these things. And so I, at one point I'm almost ashamed to say, I thought, you know, maybe. Maybe if I kill one, I can create a distraction and get out of here and can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, cause I had these really like thin pencil like necks and he's like thin necks. I thought, well, I could get my hand around there and just, and as soon as I had that thought, they, the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side, they moved away so fast. It was like a blur. And then, um, one. One of the ones that were at my feet, just, it was weird. He kind of like reached up in the air with his arm. They had these long, long, thin articulated arms. And when he came down, he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey. It was like a hockey puck, but it wasn't like perfectly round. It was more like an oval shape and had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has, but it was like the size of a hockey puck, maybe a little smaller. And they put one on, on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs. Like no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't move my legs. Did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from or? No, I didn't. Yeah. I mean. No souvenirs. You know, like I said earlier, it was like, I got the clear impression that these, whatever they were. They were following a procedure. Yeah. It was, you know, step one, step two, step three, step four. I don't remember them putting me in any machines. Jack, they got a lot more out of Jack than they did me because I was like so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was going to have a seizure. So they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure because I would be like freaking out during these sessions. But it was almost like. The beings were in some sort of automated assembly line and they were following. In a sense. In a sense. They weren't totally automated. Just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles. On his legs for several years thereafter, I don't know if it's that way now, hair didn't grow there. It was like bald patch on it. Whoa, really? Both shins. And his identical twin brother, Jack. Yeah. Yeah. He had tumors growing in the exact spots on his legs. What? Tumors? Tumors. Benign or? We never knew because the tumors were removed at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont. Their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological they were looking at. So they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology. Down around Washington, D.C. It was signed for by a major, or no, by a colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a colonel, because they have one of the best pathology science labs in the world. Got it. When they removed this thing on his shin, it looked like a piece of chewed bubble gum. Pink in color, hard. And they said. It looked like a piece of chewed bubble gum. It resembled a type of growth that is common when you have bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound. That's what they. They said they didn't know what it was, but that was what it. That was the closest thing that they could describe it as. Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants? Anything inside of your body? I don't know. I don't think so. I used to have a head of hair. Does that count? No. Oh, okay. I have like a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that I had never known before. If you were to take like an old pencil, the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something to take a plug out, that's the size, diameter, and very shallow, maybe about not quite an eighth of an inch deep right here on the inside of my leg. You described the beings as clinical? Very clinical, yeah. We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall. So they were about their business. That's kind of, you know. Yeah, right. The best analogy I can come up with is like when scientists go to the Arctic and they see a polar bear and they dart him. And then while he's anesthetized, they measure his teeth and look at his, you know. What's a polar bear got to say about what happened to it? I remembered when under the hypnosis, like the way I saw things was weird. It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see. Clearly, you. But out here, everything was fuzzy and unclear. Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Because all four of you did hypnotic regression. Yes, yeah. Over a period of almost a year. Do you have the audio? Ray certainly has. I don't. Yeah. Would I be able to listen to that? Some of the hypnotic regressions are word for word in his book. Would I be able to listen? To the audio? You'd have to get Ray. Okay. If he even still has that stuff. Okay. But if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, The Allagash Abductions, it has direct quotes from the regression. Okay. Questions as well as our responses. And their analysis. And their analysis of them as well. It's the best book on the case. Did John Mack oversee any? Or did. Did John Mack review any of the hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there? I don't know what John did. I'm sure he must have over the years because we've known John for many years. Over 20 years. Yeah, over 25 before he died. And I went to his, after we had, after Ray had gotten finished with his investigation, I was, he said, because during the investigation, he said, I don't want you to read any books. I don't want you to talk about. I don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else because I don't want to like pollute. Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would, you know, after having written his book, hopefully the audio, the raw source material, he would sort of open source because if anybody, you know, if anybody should be in possession of it, it should be you guys. I mean, we could have purchased the complete manuscript. I mean, and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions. Transcribe verbatim word for word. But, you know, that thing was like literally almost a foot thick of paper. Now we have a little thing called AI and you run it, you run it through and you just say, you know, describe, you know, these accounts and give us a summary and then you can query it. And you, so I think, I think it'd be really cool to, to get these things kind of digitized and, you know, and then run it through the AI. And you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff. Sounds like you found a project for yourself. Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll try to get in touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Um, fascinating. What, what was John Mack like? Uh, I, uh, am a long time, you know, admirer of his obviously, you know, rest in peace. Well, I went to his, his support group for a while after Ray was done with his investigation. Um. And Jim, real quick, just for the audience, for basic context, John Mack was the head of the Harvard. Yeah. Harvard psychiatry department and, uh, brilliant guy. He actually even wrote the Pulitzer prize winning, um, I believe Lawrence of Arabia. Yeah. That's right. Uh, uh. He was an expert on him. Yeah. The, the, the prince of disorder. Yeah. And, um, and as really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets. And towards the end of his career, he started to, uh, cause he was a clinician, see people who had missing time and get into the whole, you know, alien abduction. Phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins, um, who was this, you know, amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So go on. Yeah. So anyway, my impression of John, when I first met him was I knew that he was a psychiatrist and he was affiliated with Harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo. And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were. In my, from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people, one camp, which I considered myself a member of was the nuts and bolts. I called it the nuts and bolts. You know, I, I, I want to see physical evidence. I want to see physical beans. And then the other camp was more of a, like, um. People who thought that they were most that they're, that their experiences were more ethereal, uh, multi-dimensional beans that weren't physical, but communicated more of a consciousness, consciousness, consciousness based. And that these people seem to think that the aliens were our saviors, that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our. Consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff, which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it. I mean, but I did notice that. And I think John was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist. He, you know, because what a psychiatrist job to do their job is to heal people, you know, and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this. It's like, even though they, even though we all believe that we actually, that these experiences were real for us, it still creates all kinds of psychological problems, you know, how to deal with other people who don't, who think you're crazy or think you're, you know, subhuman for some reason or something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box. And so it's, it, my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his. Mission. His mission to help these people become, you know, self. Actualized where they could be, they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety. Kind of re reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously. And still be able to live with their experiences, you know, because that was, that was the difference between him and the rest of the community, the rest of the psyche, psychiatric community. Especially at Harvard, which is why they tried to kick them out. Yeah. Was that, no, these people are, you know, they're, they're lunar. There's something wrong with these people. And John was saying, look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological tests I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people. And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior. No, the only mental problems I had was from the seizures. Um, because I'd have auras, you know, I'd smell things or hear things or, um, how many beings were on the craft? Well, hard to say. Yeah, it really would be because there were people or beings in, uh, like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam area. And as we left, we passed because that was where I was. I inquired about their power system and propulsion system. And so, so you've, you learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or. Well, I was explained the way you would explain something to a six-year-old that it, uh, it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water. Uh, different levels by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hole to maintain that depth, and they could match gravitational fields. Mm. And so that was the way they were sort of examining, uh, example, a, to what we do. This is the way your submarine works. This is the way our craft works when it's in, in a planetary. Yeah. Gravitational field. Gravitational area. So it would, like you mentioned with the submarine, you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull which manages the depth and you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating gravitational fields interesting yeah that's fascinating very yeah well it's good you know think about that i'll mull that over well i mean it's just like we can do things magnetically that um where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity you have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another uh and their ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from from a denser field to a less dense field i don't know it's the only way i can think of yeah did you have any sense of where they came from why they were taking you know samples from you guys no it's interesting because the kind of you know gammy you know semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot that's very common it's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program and that's kind of where you end up with a lot a lot of these guys don't don't we do the exact thing same thing to animals sure on our planet yeah we domesticate animals all the time we breed them we create new species we do the same thing with people and like you know dynasty families it's wild to think that but it's it's true and sometimes i think about these um gray alien beings and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into given that we're being domesticated right now that is not a controversial thing to say we are you know testosterone is dropping off a cliff uh sperm count is dropping off a cliff for men we're losing you know the melanin in our our skin that happens over a long period of time so you end up with these beings that you know they lose the melanin in their skin the the their prefrontal cortex is larger because decision making is probably more important with the advent of you know the ai white collar work age their ears and nose become vestigial we're not hunter-gathering their eyes become more slit-like because we use more screens and their their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important and they develop some sort of you know latent telepathic power which you're now seeing you know the telepathy tapes and like you know people starting to lend more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we we have this mind matter sort of thing and so they've selected for all of this stuff that you would expect humanity to select for it's very interesting that's right yeah yeah i mean i've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're not going to be able to be they're actually us from the future yes yeah that exactly there's a guy named mike masters and then i somehow think that you know that's a really interesting theory that's important and then it's somehow too simple like there's something else going on too you know but it's it's it's always hard to theorize the problem i always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical i mean if they if if they can travel interdimensionally why do they have craft what do they need a craft for yeah yeah yeah you know it's like what yeah it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time and that would be the jacques valet idea i mean are they is is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to yeah see as physical i don't know did did any of you so okay so the the the physical evidence would be like the ankle your hair not growing around your ankle your brother having tumors in the same spot too in the exact same spot anything else as far as like a physical you know remnant of the well one of the things that has always fascinated me personally was the fact that all of us or the three of us most certainly had uh major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork after the where i was training myself to be a school teacher to work with children teaching art i ended up becoming a medical artist working with medical scientists medical researchers and being aware of all kinds of new technologies the technology i mentioned that they use to look at our chests or at our torsos um when i was a medical photographer i would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film infrared film and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies because with ultraviolet light you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eye and you can see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eye and you can see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes um so we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue eyes and your mris prior to that was your x-rays and then cat scans and you can use ultrasound uh sonic waves and tomograms the whole nine yards all these different radiological tools so i was talking with a physician about this and uh and he said well he said it's just like when you know uh defibrillators first showed up in the world you know they were these you know experimental paddles that you touch the heart or you know to re start the the heart's function and that all these technologies that these beings have were slowly catching up i mean if you stop and any rational person stop and think in 1903 which was 123 years ago two bicycle builders from ohio did the first manned flight not a glider they weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location they took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation that was flight 66 years after that we were walking on the moon in 66 years now these these entities these beings that we don't know where they come from uh they have science that's you know even patness on the back saying thousands of years ahead of us they might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us uh the milky way galaxy there are more stars and planets in the milky way galaxy than grains of sand on planet earth that's what i've been told by astrophysicists and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me and and uh that uh the technologies that we have and we're developing like sound technology without speakers uh bone conducting headphones yeah send the vibrations through your cheekbones and i hear better with these than i do listening to people yeah it's fascinating it you can bypass the ear canal through vibration yeah beethoven went deaf famously and he would uh chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear once he went deaf which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer um speaking of very advanced technology maybe the most shocking thing that you said charlie right before we started rolling which i got so excited about is i've been researching this guy named john norsine yeah and he is uh you know this interesting engineer who has this lockheed patent for essentially how to fly a ufo with your mind how to use sort of biofeedback from the brain in order to control remote control yeah a remote pilot a craft and he he talks about brain prints the idea that we have fingerprints but you might also have a unique kind of uh you know electromagnetic signature just like iris or whatever yeah yeah so fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time and i have to think if there is you know a legacy ufo crash retrieval program which i do believe um they are either tracking him uh you know and he's now since you know he's passed away but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess and so this is fascinating because you said that john norsine you spoke to john norsine and he was at allagash in the 19 in 1976 in august when you guys were there and experienced your abduction that's what he said he read our report to the ranger that same day that's what he told us whoa he read your report to the ranger that same day and what what did he say he was doing there he said he was doing a ttr um tag trace retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing that they could monitor they could monitor gps field agents you know we tell them like blood pressure heart rate that sort of stuff so he location what exactly what he would put like this like rfid chip or something on some other military equipment and they would sort of you know uh go off and into allagash and they were testing to see how well they could track they could track them exactly that's so fast that's what he told us and does any part of you guys think that because you know i think about some of these narratives with like you know ufos showing up around nuclear sites and i don't it might not be a coincidence that you're uh you're uh uh in the navy in a nuclear capacity there's a nuclear air force base or was at the time in the 70s up in northern maine what was the name what was the name of that base do you remember oh it wasn't an air force guy loring loring loring loring air force base yeah um but this was near out was it near alagas yeah 90 miles away from alagas okay interesting maine and it was a secret nuclear base they had a uh episode it was either 1975 or 1976 where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles and this is around the time that you guys had your experience i don't know if it was around the same time you said 75 75 76 yeah yeah well that's around the same time yeah yeah well there's like a many reported incidents over uh our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them and then all the missiles go offline all their computers shut down and uh they go into a massive freak out freak out oh yeah i've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand and i think they're all legit so 90 miles away you had this air force base they reported ufos showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the ufos seeming to sort of you know track or do they were doing they were definitely mapping the bunkers and that's a common thing you hear yeah that they're sort of you know uh testing the tip of the spear of human defense and you know knowing you know either to protect ourselves protect their resources you know some of the people in the national security state say there might be you know doing isr and doing recon i don't know but i mean i don't believe that i don't i don't believe that yeah yeah i don't buy the whole the the idea that they're a threat and you know i think they're they oh if they wanted to do something like that i don't know if they wanted to do something yeah we couldn't do diddly that's right and they would have done it years ago they why why it's like they are so advanced it's like yeah why do they need to like you know play around with us before before you know it's like what at what point in your isr you know recon do you say okay we can like take these guys out like they can they could clearly take us out now if they wanted to take it down a long time i mean good lord yeah you look back at artwork from the renaissance era and they're like oh yeah we're gonna do this we're gonna do this and you have a lot of depictions of like ufos in some of these pieces of artwork yeah um yeah no it's clearly a it's a across civilizations and across millennia phenomena so if they were gonna threaten us i mean they would have done us way before the neanderthal were bred out yeah and that's another thing a lot of people think the neanderthal were killed by crow magnum and homo sapien sapien which is what the species we are uh but they got literally screwed out of existence i want to stick with this john norsine thing because i think this is really interesting so he was doing ttr this sort of tracking thing of other you know fellow military combatants or something seeing if they go out in the field and track i believed him i mean he was he's i got to know john pretty good how'd you meet him we met him at down in newport would bring together experiencers uh and she's somebody that was he an experiencer norsine no he was working with an artist in jamestown across the bay what was he doing when you met him do you know what his job was john i don't really know what his job was he was telling us things and then he said well i can't really tell you what i'm doing now because i would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere and i was thinking what happened to him and i was he ended up dead in a hotel room yes exactly no way down tennessee was it i don't remember somewhere i think they claimed it was a heart attack but he told us at ann's yeah he said because he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about it just seemed like science fiction yeah it seemed like i said i even said to him you know john isn't that a bit out of talking about this what he was drinking you know i mean everybody was drinking wine and he was and what did he say it was his job title in the 70s in the in 76 when he was at allagash do you remember primarily research function yeah i think he was said he was doing government research had to be working with the military because they were you know ttrs agents in the field and no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smoke screen for like covert government experimentation i don't think so no i asked john personally you asked you asked i asked john that i said john you know uh is what we saw up there and i mean did you did we like stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into and then you nailed us and and hypnotized us or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your butt he said no and he believed in what he said yeah no i could tell he was telling the truth he said we wouldn't do that we would just go away no i mean leave you with a story nobody's gonna believe for sure yeah yeah exactly it's not like you guys have like had an easy time since yeah you know yeah it came out with your story no i i almost i almost wonder if the you know meta phenomena of the ufos showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity they're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space-time itself you could imagine them maybe being interested in a you know chip tracking uh you know human experiment and them showing up around that so you know i think the kind of easy lazy skeptic thing is that they're showing up around that so you know i think the kind of easy lazy skeptic thing would be to say that oh it's a it's a smokescreen for some mk ultra thing yeah but maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities which were seemingly covert might have attracted the phenomena itself well that's what john that's what john told me alexander graham bell let's go down listen what he's saying yeah exactly but you're saying that's what john literally told you that's what he believed too that's interesting that the the experiments that he was conducting was may have been just attracting these things when did he and he ended up dead in a hotel room i don't know what year it was in fact that was it followed a really weird uh email that i had gotten from him because he he had contacted me via email you know he was a he was an rver he was one of the early rvers yeah and uh remote viewers yeah and um he had sent me an email and said and some of the other people from ans and he said listen i'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the uh naval college in newport do you want to do you want a vip pass to come and and attend it i was like oh yeah so he said okay i'll get it all set up and then at the end of his email you know he was into i forget what the term is for this kind of use of language semiotics semiotics yeah he was really into that yeah and um he at the last sentence in his email said um uh nor uh i he said i i rv the upcoming um lecture uh john not heard nor seen whoa and i remember calling and and saying hey and like what the heck is this last sentence mean john not heard nor seen i know he's in the semiotics and stuff so you know not heard nor seen is his last name but john not heard nor seen and then just like two weeks after that he was found dead in a motel room so jesus christ so that was some sort of code where it's like he he remote viewed his own view and he wasn't there and this was code to say he's not heard nor Yeah. I mean, what else could that mean? Oh, my God. I mean, what? This is nuts. And he probably was working on program stuff. Who knows? I mean, he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown. Duncan Laurie is his name. He's a sculptor, glass artist. But at that time, John was working with him on life energy auras around like rocks and plants and things like that. Bioenergetics. Bioenergetics. Yeah. Very interesting. Very. Yeah. Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we could go on forever. But Charlie, you had, because you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting UFO experience that I want to get into. Yeah. In May of 1970, we were off the coast of Spain doing what we had gone out there to do. And it was just after we've knocked off working for the day, waiting for the call to evening meal. There were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck. I have cigarettes. Stick around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was a lieutenant, a highest ranking enlisted, which was a chief petty officer, and then descending ranks from there. And one of the guys said, what the F is that? And so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship. And just as. I was looking back, I saw these two lights coming toward us. I mean, faster than you could swing your arm from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop. These things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop. And we observed them for almost two minutes, two full minutes. And one of these points of light or spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone. Just snip, nip, but less time than it did for me to say that. Snip, nip, and it was gone. And then about 30 seconds later, the other. The other one did the exact same thing, and they both went vertical straight up so fast you just couldn't believe what you were looking at. So we turned to the officer that was there and we said, sir, what the hell was that? And he looked at the chief and he looked at us and he looked at the chief and he looked back at us and he said. If I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow, because no one's going to believe you. And this topic's closed. And with that, he turned and ran up. And officers country. And I, I've never forgotten that verbatim quote, you know, you, nobody's going to believe you anyhow. Well, I think topic is closed. I think they believe you guys now because, you know, now you have directors of national intelligence, directors of the CIA. Oh, you got it in saying, we're looking into this stuff. Yeah. You got pilots using their cell phones to photograph. Frickin. You. UFOs that aren't from here. Yeah. It's, uh, the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming. And I think the consensus is rapidly shifting. And, um, you said, uh, and this is, I think going to be also, uh, if we find corroboration for this really, you know, healthy vindication for, you know, Allagash as well. Oh, absolutely. May, May, 1970 USS Holland is where this occurred. Correct. And so off the coast of Spain, off the coast of Spain. And this thing. This thing was seen on the starboard side and maybe it's still in the logs. So to anybody who has any experience with the freedom of information act and knows how to, you know, send those requests, try to try to get this stuff out. Yeah. If you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in, uh, knowing what was reported. Awesome. Can we talk a little bit about a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork? Sure. Because, um, there were two things that changed. Well, we talked a little bit about yours. Just touching base and a little bit about Jack's obsession about mathematics. I mean, this, this happened immediately after we returned to Boston and, uh, before we went to the Allagash, Jack was doing, um, uh, endangered species. Well, he was doing like really tight kind of, um, illustrative silkscreen designs. One of them is in the, uh, museum of, uh, museum of art in Washington, D.C. Snakes posters. Stern devil's pup. Yeah. I don't know if the devil's pupfish is, but, um, anyway, and then he was also doing these kind of like, um, uh, what kind of painting it is? Abstract expressionist painting of, um, landscapes. That was the kind of work he was in. And then like immediately after coming back from the Allagash, he like just became obsessed with this, this landscape. Like all this kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was building, um, models of like cosododecahedrons out of straws. Whoa. He was incorporating grids in all of his artwork and in very incredibly intriguing ways. Whoa. And it was one piece that I really loved. I would like to know whatever happened to it. Toss grid salad. Oh, that's Craig, a friend of ours. Oh, Craig's got that? Yeah. Anyway, um, and he was like, I, you know, we live together, you know, and I'm his twin. So like no secrets. And I'd be like, Jack, what the hell is going on here? You know, like, what are you doing? And he'd go, I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And, and like, it just like kept going and going and going. And years later, somebody came, uh, our friend, Mike Asherman came, um. To the house. This was got, this guy is like a brilliant. MIT scientist. MIT, uh, uh, programmer and scientist. He helped them build their tokamak at MIT. And he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork and he goes, you know, I know what this is, Jack. This is, um, get this book, uh, secrets of the, uh. World grid. World grid and anti, uh, anti-gravity by David Hatcher Childress. Hmm. And that go to this. Hey, this chapter in here, you'll see Jack's what's the math behind all of this stuff. What? Yeah. And this guy's building tokamak. Yeah. Wild. So it's almost like your brother was channeling. Something. Frontier science. And the same thing happened to me. When I, when I came back before I went up to the Allagash, I was making production pottery. I was making bowls and cups and platters and platters and plates and things and teapots. And when I came. When I was like just days after this event in, on the Allagash, I had this epiphany. I mean, it was like an epiphany is the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden this thing came into my head, fully developed that I could, if I worked with clay this way, I could do this like really unique kind of, of cre creations with clay that are there so far. Total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got, I almost got kicked out of the program because of it, but I stayed with it and I managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to. Some of the most amazing. Look at. Amazing artwork. And then in addition to that, I, I became obsessed like my brother on, um, ancient architecture, places like Teotihuacan. Tiwanaku, Baalbek and the temples in Southeast Asia, Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom and the pyramids. And I, I just became obsessed because I had this. You know, that's also common among experiencers. They'll say, I've become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy who you guys might be friends with too, Mario Woods, uh, from the Ellsworth Air Force Base, uh, abduction experience, South Dakota, 1977. And he, he goes after, he goes, this is going to sound weird, but after. After my experience, I just became obsessed with pyramids. Yeah. So did I. And, and I had this, this belief, which I still have. I, I believe that these sites, these structures, these architectural sites are a form of macro chip technology that they, they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods. Yeah. I believe that. That they actually used these structures. For some kind of purpose, a re a, a, a functional purpose, you know, because why did they have, you Huge sheets of mica brought to Teotihuacan Sun Pyramid from 2,000 to 3,000 miles away in South America and then put them under the floor structures of the temples. I mean, mica is used in the electronics industry. And so, like, why would they do that if it's not decorative? And it's not just in the Pyramid of the Sun. It's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all utilize this mica. So, you know, mica, it's used as an insulator to make capacitors. Another point. Very interesting. Yeah. And I've always, and that was like just something that. Creating strong electric fields. Yeah. I'm reading a book now. It's called Seeds of Knowledge. Stones of Power, I think it is. And I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week. Found it on Amazon where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe, Egypt. And they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations. And they claim in their argument in their book that. That these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seed more virulent. And that, so they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or whatever containers of seeds. And they found out that they increase yield per acre, like three to five times. It's like electroculture or something. Yeah. Ancient electroculture. Bio-electric. Bio-electric. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim, Charlie, this was an absolute honor. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. And, yeah, it was really amazing to hear your story. And, you know, I hope people start to, you know, use the Freedom of Information Act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well. That'd be interesting. I'd like to know. And I want to give a shout out to the great James Fox for the very generous introduction here. And thank you both for your time. Well, you're very, very welcome. It's been an honor, Jess. Oh, my honor. All mine. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO-T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show. And we'll see you next time on American Alchemy.