Innovators Under 35: a nova geração de inovadores

Information specialised, influential and reliable. Podcast MIT Technology Review Brasil. Hello, I'm Carlos Aros and this is another podcast of MIT Technology Review Brasil. Today I and Rafael Conimbra are going to talk about the Innovators Under 35. And this time we're going to talk about two lists. The Innovators Under 35 from America, the American edition of the Technology Review and the Innovators Under 35 from Brazil, those announced by us, the Technology Review Brasil, a few days ago at an event in Rio de Janeiro. We published the list, did a series of talks with the innovators, managed to understand more and better about the challenges of the days and now we have details of the innovators presented by the American edition. And now we can, therefore, make some parallels, draw not with the goal of comparing what happens there and what happens here, because they are very different realities, but we establish parallels to eventually show at what point of the innovation journey we, Brazil, meet and they, the United States and the world in general, meet. And this helps us understand the maturity level, what are the challenges, where the weight of the regionality enters in the decisions and in the stories of each of these innovators. I think we have a lot to discuss, but first I want to remember that this podcast is an offer from SAS, leader in analytics. Rafa, the list is good, the two are really good, the lists are good, they bring different configurations, different looks, we still have, and it could not be different, an important role of the innovators who have artificial intelligence, like the core there, the work, the delivery is specific, but the middle of the path is the journey, each of them has different origins, different stories, but they all operate in an interesting maturity level, both from a technological point of view, both from the knowledge of the ecosystem and from the point of view of the vision about the role of innovation. In these three aspects, I think we have important similarities, but there are also very different things that we need to observe, even as checkpoints of maturity here in Brazil. Perfect, Aries, the first thing that draws your attention in the two lists is an absurd ability of creativity along with execution. We, who work all the time, research, interviewing, listening to people and companies who are at the border of the construction of this future, and every year a list comes out like this, you say, "Fuck, how much problem still needs to be solved and how many ingenious solutions arise from ingenious people in various parts of the world, including in Brazil." So the first thing is this feeling that never ends. We see in the innovators' lists problems from the past, so here I come to Brazil, we observed a lot of this, people who have their needs, their local entraves transforming local solutions into something that will often be scalable to Brazil and eventually to the world, and you also have other innovators here coming to the list spread across North American land, of problems that I will call the future. I will give an example here, taking the computation case. There is a category there, computation, and then there is an innovator who is developing some new material so that, I will quote his name here, Maxin Karpov, is developing a kind of laser to replace copper cables in data centers. Why am I saying that this is a problem of the future? Because we are constantly talking about the need of many supercomputers to feed artificial intelligence and we will need a lot of energy. So you have, on the one hand, researchers trying to bring new sources of energy, but in this case, this innovator is trying to create a more efficient way so that energy is not wasted, and it is an interesting way to solve a problem of the future. Coming to artificial intelligence, Arus, I find it very interesting, what you put and we saw a lot of this here in Brazil, artificial intelligence being transversal, it passes, it is a category, both in the United States and here, but it begins to spread and be used for acceleration. So there in the United States, for example, there are innovators using artificial intelligence, for example, to look for new materials, materials in very small scales and making this development, this search for new materials, be accelerated by artificial intelligence. But we see within artificial intelligence itself something like, for example, a problem that we know exists and is discussed a lot in the academic environment, which is the hallucinations. We know that these great models of language like GPT and Gemini, when they do not know a specific environment, they generate a response, because the machines are programmed for that, and eventually these responses that seem true are actually inventions, and they are so well done that we end up believing that that response is true, but we call this hallucination. So there are people, for example, working innovators, working to reduce hallucinations. And another example that I find interesting is to think about global dispute. So we know that there is today a very strong domain, for this particular case, NVIDIA, which is the largest company in the world in market value, many times leading this rally of the North American stock market, is the largest producer of A-chips, is the largest supplier for great companies in technology, and then there is an innovator there called Gaven Ubert, who is trying to develop a different chip to compete with NVIDIA. So, look, it's a use, an interesting use, and someone who is not intimate with the biggest company in the segment of the world, and says, "No, why not do something different, with another perspective, with some kind of technology that can eventually become the leader of a market like artificial intelligence?" I think this mix of use, creativity and execution is something we see both out there and here in Brazil. Rafa, there is a piece of the list here in Brazil that draws my attention, because they chose a path that is, I repeat, a little more complex, because it involves the construction of public policies, involves the interaction between private entities and governments, involves developing platforms based on resources and in any other place in the world, and if we were to take more digitized countries than ours, the information would already be centralized and platforms based on data that are not centralized here in Brazil, etc. This is the choice of part of our innovators here in Brazil, it is possible. And then we have this in some of the innovators of the American list, they are not all who work with this model that involves public policies. It is very punctual, in very specific areas. Then my question is, in your view, this look has to do with some challenges, some obstacles that Brazil proposes not only to the innovator, but to the businessman, to the entrepreneur in general, and therefore it is necessary to establish this barrier first to then innovate in fact in other countries. What is your reading on this? I think there is a direct relationship with money. When we look at developed countries, taking a concrete example, the United States, these innovators are often linked to a university or to a company and have a portfolio, not only the volume of investment but also the strongest investment in the short term, as a portfolio in the medium and long term. In some cases, these innovations demand time, until they become mature, until they are tested, validated and gain scale. This type of dynamics is obviously much more, I will not say it is easy, but there is a much more favorable environment in a country like the United States. When we come to Brazil, the resources are scarce. But then there are two interesting things when you work in the environment of scarcity. The first thing we saw in some innovators that were awarded here in Brazil, I will give a case here, Ana Paula Zamperi de Melo, she took a coffee maker, one of those that we have, many of us have a coffee maker at home, espresso coffee, capsules, and she adapted a coffee maker to monitor contaminants in areas of environmental disasters, if there is any oil contamination. See, it is an extremely low cost solution. She did not create a super machine from scratch, spent millions of dollars, she adapted a machine. And this makes a difference, because if we are working in a country like Brazil that has scarce resources, this crisis solution of scarcity makes a lot of difference and is extremely valid. I will give another example. When we think about those areas of scarce resources, what you call "Arus Attention" makes a lot of sense to Brazil, which is a connection to the ecosystem. We map this very strongly here in Brazil in our winners. Several of them not only connect to governments, to strategies, to partnerships, it can be a partnership with the government of the State and eventually even with the federal government. It is very important that the party is a matter of you to attract someone, for example, in the case of public services, there are public problems. We have a lot of problems to solve in Brazil. So it makes a lot of sense for you to create a partnership with the public organ. As it also makes a lot of sense for you to ally yourself with a larger company. Or, in the case of universities, to make agreements with universities. The more this network of support in Brazil is wider, the better for innovation. Because, differently, as I am putting there in the States, where you have a lot of money being put in, because obviously there is also this concern in some cases with the improvement of the public service, but we are talking about a competitive environment of heavy investors, capital funds of risk, who want, from an innovation, to create great disruptions, to create, to conquer new markets, and then the money enters much stronger. So, I would say that these characteristics they interfere, this characteristic in the case of money, interfere directly in the way how innovations happen. Not dismissing one another are different innovations for different scenarios. One of the categories that the American Earth puts is artificial intelligence. Even by the protagonism that IA has been gaining in our time, be it through the challenges of technological development, through the challenges of adequacy, there are many transformations that IA imposes, and not all of them, not all of them, we have good answers while society. And then, of course, having this category makes all sense, and when we look at the innovators of this year, we have a little bit of everything on the list. We have those who are looking at the issue of risks and development of policies that make the use of IA less harmful, or others who are observing the construction of platforms that attend to specific purposes, etc. This IA cut is made by the American Earth. In your assessment, today, does IA really matter, or does IA hype matter? Where are these innovators looking? We talked recently about IA's hype, and I think that, in the case of innovators, this is a very easy risk of loss, to fall for the temptation of IA. What is your assessment here? Look, Arius, I would say that it is a very concrete list. I will give examples of people who are already working and modifying the IA scenario and who have been aggrieved with this award. I have Tim Brooks. Tim Brooks is one of the co-creators of Sora's video model, a video generation by IA, in the case of OpenAI. He is already in the market and has a relationship with the market. He is in the biggest artificial intelligence company in the world today. Another example is Ixal Pic, who is working in IA's hands. Look, we are in the North American R&D, awarding someone who is in a Chinese company, of IA agents, and Manus AI. It comes very strongly specializing and facing the North American companies, so it is very interesting to recognize this innovation that is coming from the other side of the world. Manus AI is an extremely important company today in this global competition. I would quote the third case of an innovator, who is Manlin Li, who is working with artificial intelligence. Let's call it real-world understanding. There is a new frontier. We are very used to artificial intelligence, the cell phone, the computer, audio, video and text, to simplify our use of IA generative. There is a new frontier here. Jensen Huang, who is the CEO of NVIDIA, has worked a lot with this concept of artificial spatial intelligence, in which the future will be an integration of this artificial intelligence that we are used to, but integrated into robots, especially humanoid robots. So Jensen Huang sees the next frontier as an IA spatial. But not just him. Google also works, Google has a special department working with robots. There are more robotic arms. They don't come to be humanoid, but it's the same concept. It's to embark on artificial intelligence in something three-dimensional, in something physical. And then there is an innovator who is working with models to teach artificial intelligence to adapt to this real-world world. These initiatives, I gave three here, to make it clear, are very concrete, they are companies that are already taking place and they are trends that are already being unfolded in the real world, of great technology companies, including. So we are not talking here more about a hype, we are talking about specific uses. Of course, if we think about a great transformation that will make everybody unemployed, this has not happened, we are almost three years old from the GPT, but for certain eyes, specific movements, these trends are consolidating, including bringing financial results to companies that have worked with this type of innovation. So you can't say that these innovators are just elaborating, by the way, Aruz, say in passing, this is important to make clear, both on the list that they share our account, this is an important factor. We don't award ideas. The idea is very cool, it is the beginning of everything. Everybody should have a lot of good ideas every day, every hour, but to transform a good idea into something concrete that will have an impact is not something simple. And what we award, both here and there, are initiatives that have a degree of concrete, the more impact, the more points that these people receive in their awards. So we are not talking about ideas, we are talking about very concrete things. And this is an interesting point, because there are many specificities in the work, on the two lists, many specificities. It is a deep compliment in the areas of action, some of them, and I think this may be the divulged recipe to be an innovator. There are elements that will never be revealed and that are very subjective, they are there between lines. But if we could say what is on the surface, we are able to identify about innovators. And then, both on the American list, as well as on the list here in Brazil, what we have is, first, this factor that you put here, which is fundamental, are figures that have good ideas, but that have worked to make these good ideas something in execution. Maybe not completed yet, in some cases, maybe never again with a line of arrival, because it is a project that will be transforming, will be re-signifying, but in execution. And this is a very important point. And they also have forms that are multidisciplinary, let's say. Some of them started in a career they were walking around other universes and building references, building a repertoire to be able to work with a multidisciplinary vision, either as a collaboration, not being specialists in specific areas, but either as collaborators bringing elements with different views for projects and such. But trying to bring a multiple vision of the problem on the screen to be resolved. And then, choosing one or two specific paths to point out solutions or to address there, in paths. I think this, Afa, is a very interesting point from the Brazilian list, from the American list, which is the individual construction of these guys. How did they get here? The repertoire that they built. And this makes all the difference in a world in which, more and more, we find generalists to have high speciality figures, of knowledge density in one area, but who seek a contact point in others, as a complement of that area of main action, is a gigantic differential. Not only competitive when we think about the market, but also a differential to generate results. These comrades of this list, be it the American or Brazilian list, but the innovators, with up to 35 years, they are inductors of a transformation that maybe they don't even have the dimension of how deep it is. And it's only possible to do that because they have an individual repertoire construction, quite wide. They are not closed in a single world. Do you agree with this view? Perfecto. Inclusive, the global problems, are becoming more complex. So, it's interesting that we have this kind of more transversal view and that, at some point, coming back to the story of the connection of the ecosystem, when we feel the need to look for another specialist, let's say, communication happens. I'm going to give a concrete example of one of our award-winning innovators, Lucas Guimarães and Souza. He's from Arrow River, and he's creating, prototyping, a flying ship. It's a ship that, by a physical property, can fly at a low altitude on top of a river. And he says that, in his process of innovation, he has to understand a bit of water, because, in the background, the plane will land and take off the water. He has to understand the air. There's a mixture of engineering with some other field of physics, and from a local solution, because he lives, he lived, I don't know if he's still living, but his origin is from the Amazon region, he saw that there was a need for a transport that could work better, and his idea was to traffic the cargo and people on top of the river, but instead of ships, in a more efficient way, with the name "flying plane". See, he's part of a local problem, of a need, with his vision, with his formation, but in this process, on a big Friday, he starts looking for partnerships with other specialists, and look at how they should be specialists, because imagine the security you have to have to fly with a new type of aircraft that nobody has ever done something like that. So, it makes sense what you're talking about, and I would say that today, more and more, we will have either general specialists or specialist generalists with the use of AI, because when a generalist eventually discovers a difficulty, he will tell, initially, with some idea of artificial intelligence, that will go through a specialist. She won't take into account all the information, but maybe in an initial point, to give an idea, give a general opinion of its needs, she will help these innovators to look for the real specialist, and this fusion of ideas will make these problems increasingly complex, collaborative solutions increasingly complex. Well, to finish the talk, to say that the two lists are available for you who want to know more about the innovators of this year, Innovators Under 35 Brasil, available at mittechreview.com.br and Innovators Under 35, available at mittechreview.com The two lists with small summary about each of them, details of the projects and the like, so that you can understand more and improve the respect. And then, to close, Rafa, what are you looking at this week? I'm looking at some possible end-of-history and other beginning-of-history in the case of stories with battles, economic politics. I'm talking about TikTok and NVIDIA at the same time, because there's an online negotiation in Madrid, in Spain, of representatives from the United States of China around several topics, among them, one, I'll start with TikTok. We know that TikTok is a time to be banned in the United States, there was a threat that the platform would be expelled from the country if it didn't accept the proposal to be controlled 100% by some North American company, because the United States accuses China of using, eventually, North American citizens for a Chinese government monitoring, since ByteDance, the company that controls TikTok, is Chinese. And it seems, until now, the moment we're recording the podcast, it seems that they reached an agreement, because the deadline is now 17, but in the end it may be that they delay this deadline but, as far as I understand, there will be some agreement there, at least that's what the United States are saying. It remains to be known if they combined it properly with the Chinese. So, maybe we have a solution for one side or for the other, of what will happen with TikTok in the United States. And the other battle that is being discussed there, and is in the middle of the Tariff War, regarding NVIDIA, in those days, there were some implications against NVIDIA, saying that NVIDIA, in the 2020 process, didn't fulfill the Chinese legislation, it's making some accusations to the company and, obviously, this will generate some kind of restriction, of punishment, remembering that the United States has been preventing the export of chips at the end of NVIDIA to China. NVIDIA has made some adaptations, China is trying to counter the situation there, but the fact is that it's more and more clear that the Chinese government has already understood that it won't be able to deal with this American technology and is, on its side, internally developing, with its companies, Huawei, Tencent, an alternative to NVIDIA. This is another point that we are seeing from a tension that sometimes gets better, sometimes gets worse, and it's very clear that China is moving more and more towards a break in relation to NVIDIA, but it's all being discussed in this exact moment that we are recording on the podcast, so I'm looking at NVIDIA and Tiktok in the future of these two companies in the coming days. I just want to bring one of those checkpoints that we like to record, which is the new attempt or another incursion of the Amazon with autonomous cars. A few days ago the company released the robot taxi service, which would be an alternative to transport without motorists and Finns, and they are operating in a provisional character in the United States. They are testing for two years and are still waiting for other liberations in other states. They are still waiting for other liberations and so on. For now, it's still in the range. Only in the test character there is no defined business model for this and so on. It is important to say that there have been attempts. The Waymo, which is from Google, has a robot taxi service that has been operating in this business. Tesla also has a number of cars waiting in Texas. Each of them has different approaches. There is not yet a clear legislative definition. There are several laws taking into account different processes within this same principle of collective transport, of passenger transport. But the point is that more and more people are working in this direction. Meanwhile, some other sectors are working to bring the autonomous to the heights. We have Ivy here in Brazil. We have Embraer working with this. We have the assemblymen working with this same perspective. Everyone is looking for the autonomous. The X of the question in which this will all take place and how this will happen, dialoguing with the huge challenges of the construction of intelligent cities. In fact, we have some intelligent cities, some articles about intelligent cities published on our website, which are worth reading. Some go through this topic of transport, of mobility. But the premise is the following. These vehicles, they quietly do not comply with a crucial role they need to be embarked on a concept of the city in which these vehicles, together with other elements, make up a large picture of data management, energy efficiency, mobility and the like. So, they are small in size, important checkpoints, a confined environment of tests, a limited number of cars and so on. But they diverge in giant challenges and maybe the big challenge is infrastructure, guarantee connectivity, guarantee basic elements that need to be seen in the highway system so that these cars operate. Here in Brazil, for example, it is already known that some car models with sensors have a gigantic difficulty of operating because some roads are not with the clearly painted faxes, clearly marked and this ends up creating a confusion in the sensor. It does not know exactly what fax it should be. So, this is one problem. We have several others. But it is an important checkpoint. Are we still far from having this in the world? Maybe. But technology is being tested, it is being validated. Let's see where we are going to walk. I think it is up to the autonomous car to drive better than some people I know. But let's wait. Let's walk in a safe direction. See you next week. We'll hear you next week. Of course, Arus. A big hug to everyone who heard us. And if you want to see us, invite us to the MTech, the global conference of emerging technologies. This time, in São Paulo, days 29 and 30 are two days of full immersion in issues like what we discuss here on our podcast. It will be great to tell your participation. You will be able to see different events there. Ask questions to the leaders who are building this future. The debate here will be a honor and a pleasure to tell your presence. Just enter the site of the MTech Brasil and buy your ticket. Otherwise, remembering, there is a discount. See you next week, Arus. That's it. We meet here next week. Remember you. This podcast is an offer from SAS, Leader in Analytics. A big hug. You heard the podcast MIT Tech Knowledge Review Brasil, presented by Tech Institute.