Welcome to Superlative. I am your podcast host Arielle Adams. In each episode you will meet someone who has inspired or takes inspiration from today's wristwatch industry. Every week let's dive deep into the world of crafting exotic timepieces from the people who dream them up to the people who dream of them. It's time to get started and meet today's guest. Everyone, Arielle Adams here with the Superlative podcast. Please listen to the other blog to watch podcast, which is a blog to watch weekly. We can listen to latest watch news and reviews. Today on Superlative, my guest is Julien Tornare, the CEO of Nat Wublo. Julien, welcome back to the show. Thanks Arielle, so nice to be back on the show. I'm very excited. I have an important question. Is there no LVMH brand which is safe from your leadership? You never know. You never know out of 75 brands. I think before it's all said and done, you may be the leader of all of them. You know, first of all, I'm a watch guy. I love watching so much that I don't see myself in another industry, I would say. Yes, it's true. I've been through the all three watchmaking brands, which gives me a great perspective. I'm very thankful for this. You had an interesting career at LVMH. Zenith is where most people know you. You did a very good job there. People took a brand that they liked and liked it even more. Then you had this really incredible, but challenging opportunity to lead TagHoyer. We chatted about it and it was an interesting thing, a lot of unknowns. Then in less than a year, and I think it's very clear, well, I should be very clear what happened. You were called for a different challenge within the company, which was, wait a minute, we know you had your heart set on TagHoyer, but who below really needs you? This is what I think is exactly what happened. You can clarify if I have a misunderstanding, but no one else there could do it, but you. They wanted to have someone who was part of the core family, because this brand needs the right type of leadership. It's an energy brand. It's not a heritage brand. It's a personality brand, right? What do I not know about the story that you can share with me? No, I think you described it pretty precisely. What really happened for me is that after six and a half years at Zenit, we put it back on track. As you mentioned, it was great. I love the brand so much, but I was looking for another challenge. You know, sometimes timing is all about finding the right job at the right moment, and at that time, Frederic Carnot was evolving from CEO of TagHoyer to leading the global division of watchmaking at LVMH. So basically, this position was vacant, was becoming vacant. That's why they asked me to go. They know I've been in the watchmaking industry for so many years. So I took the challenge, but it's true that a few months after there was a change to happen at IBLO and they discussed first between at VMH management that I was the right personality, I was the right fit, because IBLO is more of a high end in terms of product, but also in terms of clientele. It needed someone who knows watchmaking very well because we need to develop and reinforce the watchmaking aspect of the brand. And they felt I was the right guy. I was Swiss. I was based there. I knew the brand very well. I was hired by Jean-Claude Biver, so I always heard so much about IBLO. And that's why, basically, they asked me if I was willing to take over the challenge and what would be my choice between TagHoyer and IBLO. And to be honest with you, I loved TagHoyer so much that I was hesitating, but the challenge with IBLO was even more exciting for me, even more exciting with my background, with my knowledge, with so many things that I felt you know what, I'm going to take over that challenge and I'm going to walk in the footsteps of Mr. Croco of course, Jean-Claude Biver and more recently Ricardo Guadalupe. And that made me very, very exciting. And I think that I'm a better fit, you know, as a person, I'm a better fit at IBLO. That's simply the reason why. I think you're a good fit. I mean, it's not even a matter of better fit. I just think that UBLO is harder to find a leader for than TagHoyer in a lot of ways. And it takes a vivacious personality, a bit of a bond vivant. There's not just exuberance and energy to the brand, but there's indulgence. And I think that's something that a lot of people have either loved or hated about it. You know, UBLO is polarizing as a brand. I've always been on the side of people that like it. I've had a lot of friends don't like it. And I can understand why I don't agree with them. But I think part of that polarity comes from the morality around indulgence. Some people are okay, socially indulging, personally indulging, and other people simply are not. And I think that this is sort of that line, that border between if you're into UBLO or not. The question is, you know, I think for a lot of people, how do you be indulgent in an era, which unlike other eras, it's not always socially okay to be indulgent. We live through hard times. It's difficult for people to go out and show off openly. You know what I mean? Like, even though the brand hasn't changed, the world has changed a little bit. No, absolutely. And the world is always changing. So it's true. You're totally right. We are entering an era of maybe a bit more quiet luxury than it used to be over the last decades. And UBLO is not such a quiet brand. It cannot be a quiet brand. No, no, no. However, you know, UBLO has had a long history. And I was lucky to meet Mr. Kroko a month ago, the founder of the brand in the eighties, which made me exactly how he started when he did with the brand and what the brand was in the eighties and the nineties, which he's quite, quite incredible. And tell me I don't even know really. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, UBLO was really the first brand ever to bring a rubber next to gold, which was back in the days of crime in the conservative watch industry. You can imagine that in Switzerland. Yes, rubber was perceived very cheap to make tires or different materials, but not at all on the luxury product. Interesting. And he was very, how can I say, restaking and he was very a rule breaker to do that. So he did that. And the watch became the cool watch to wear. If you look at this watch in the eighties and nineties, it looks quite classical for today. However, back in the days, it was a very cool watch. And it was part of the of the watches. For example, I found out that Andy Raul was wearing, you know, it was a very cool watch to have. And, and then of course, all those years went on and then the model became a bit tired and there was a need for something new. And that's when Jean-Claude Beaver relaunched the brand with the big bang and the success we all know. But this brand is about express expression, you know, telling people who we are, telling people what we, what we go for. And it's a rule breaker, you know, and we need such brand in the Swiss watchmaking industry. Some of my colleagues, CEO of super conservative, high and brands, some of the most famous in the world, told me that they like you, because you blow shakes to watch industry. And we need that at some point. And that's you blows mission in a way. So to which level we do it, yes, you're right. The periods of time are changing and we have to measure that properly. And I think with the blow, we have the right recipe for the years to come. I also think that there's two strong areas that who blow is, you know, has a legitimate history in at this point that didn't do for any of the reason that it wanted to, that has been proven very popular. And that is bright colors and being very open minded with materials. Who blow did it before it was cool. And I think that that's proven to be very prescience because that's very trendy now at the high end and at the low end. But people are comfortable wearing again, compared to just 10 or 15 years ago. You remember back 15 years ago, if there was a men's watch in white, yeah, it was like shocking. I can't remember any. No, no way. Now that's considered, it might as will be black. That's how conservative white is. Now it's the question of can a man wear a pink watch, right? Can a man wear a woman's watch? Can a man wear a watch with flowers and diamonds on it? Like the conversations changed a lot in terms of what it's socially acceptable to wear in a watch. And blow can celebrate that like, hey, we were doing that before it was cool. In fact, we were made fun of it. And when I think of you listening to our dawn with silicon, right, how when they came out with a freak in 2004, people had to ugly the watch makers like, you're heretics. It's all about metal. How could you abandon metal? You remember all that. And of course, you know, look, look at where all that is now. So I think you blow was lucky because of this open-minded personality. And now can say, look, we were wise. We were on to something before the rest of you. Yeah, for sure. So again, it's all about timing. You blow was the first one to bring a rubber. Then you're right. When we started to launch colored ceramic and then vivid colored ceramic, which is technically quite amazing. It's very simple, but it's very, very complicated. I invite people listening to us to stop by Switzerland one day and visit our manufacturer because it's a crazy process. And then of course, sapphire and colored sapphire and mixed with complication. And I think it was really the first one to bring all these new materials, these new color that are now being done by some other brands. And that said, you blow is very well known for those new materials. Next to probably being also the first in very innovative marketing approach. Again, in a watchmaking industry, which was very conservative in terms of ads visuals, in terms of type of events, you know, the collectors seated dinner, this kind of thing. You blow came with crazy events. You blow came with absolutely incredible experiences. And that's that's what we're known for today. Absolutely. And I think that's again, it's it's making we are contributing to the evolution of of the watchmaking industry because we are pushing the limits all the time. My job now is to push the limit even further. Now speaking of your job, I'm curious if you've been given, we'll call it a mandate by the our nose. Of course, there's obviously objectives you have and things that they want, but they say Julian, this is what I want you to do with who blow or can you do a little bit more of this or where they're just like, you know what? You figured out make money, you handle it. It's probably a mix of both, I would say. First of all, they gave me the few months to really understand the brand, understand the situation, understand the strength and the weaknesses of the brand, what I need to capitalize on and what I need to improve. In order to bring the brand into the very top five top six brands in the world, which I think this is where you blow deserves to be. And it's funny you asking me this because I'm in the middle of meetings and presentation because now I've had time to work on many different things and I'm very clear on what I want to do with the brand. So in a nutshell, we need to reinforce what we are very well known for. Sorry. Like marketing, you know, go back to something out of the box, something surprising. People want to be surprised by you blow. So we need to create not only dynamic marketing, but also incredible client experiences because that's what people buy when they buy a watch today. They want to buy the brand itself. They want to buy what's all around the watch. Of course, the watch has to be perfect, but they also buy the brand. They want to be part of the community. And this is something you blow has been very strong with with the Uble to start community and I want to reinforce. Second thing, as you just mentioned, are the new materials. We have to come with new things without new development, without innovation, without creativity. Uble is not to blow anymore because this is why Uble was made for or why Uble was born. And then the third pillar, which is for me very important. You know me. I'm a purest in watchmaking. I work many years for beautiful Amazon like Vashon Constantin Zenith. So I know what watchmaking is all about. And I think Uble doesn't get enough credit about its watchmaking. And when you really go into the Unico movement, the make up and movement, some high complication we've had, Uble watchmakers having credible skills. And I want to make it shine much more. I want to reinforce that aspect of the of the brand to make sure that we get full credit also for our watchmaking aspect, which might have been a bit hidden by a very strong marketing and this innovative materials. I have a question. And again, thank you for sharing all that because I fully agree with you that there's a lot of untold stories. And one of my favorite stories that I think very few people know, especially today people come in the industry of no idea, was this remarkable story around how around the last financial crisis of 2009, 2010, this very important company in Switzerland, B&B concept goes out of business because clients can't pay it. And Jean-Claude B. Verre, who was, this is I think right before LVMH had acquired Uble O. He made the business decision to, in a sense, bail out B&B concept by hiring most of its people and buying the machines. Matthias Boutet, who led that, is still at Uble O today. You know, one of the people under him was Rex, Rex, that Brooks, happy of Acrivia, who is very celebrated. The first Acrivia watches, I think they still probably make them. We're all movements that came from B&B concept that were in a lot of the early high complication Uble O's. I think this is an incredible story of a brand consuming another company getting larger. And at the same time, Mr. B. Verre also started, you know, heavily investing on in-house. That was one step at a time. But the production of the Unico was not opportunistic. It was as soon as there was the ability to start doing it. He went in to create, you know, not just the inside, but the outside of the watch. And some of the wild, exotic, high-complication watches that Uble O's come out with are as impressive as anything from Vacheron. Think of the Antichythera, for example. So again, I think that there's some interesting stories that today, unless you're looking for it, I have to say, especially for the young collectors, Julian, these are completely unknown. No, you are totally right. And you know, Matias is someone I've always known. And we decided from my first day that we're going to work a lot more together on projects because Matias is an incredible guy. He's, for me, the, you know, he's for me, the, the, the, the, the doc, Ahmed Brown from back to the future, you know, he's the professor. He's got, he's got the wide dress, the professor effect. Next to me, I'm a manager. He's, he's, he's the, he's the guy who knows. And I really want to work very close with him. So we kicked off a lot of new things, whether on high-complication or on new materials. And we see each other every day. I also sent him back to markets. He was recently in China, in Japan, in Korea, because people love to hear from such a guy, you know, with his background, his, his story. So he was also on stake with me during the watching, watching Wonders keynote. He has never done that at Watchers and Wonders. I have nice, nice to me. And we had a very nice ping-pong game between, again, though, the professor effect on myself. So obviously, we have so much to be done in that and, and that just is a great partner. So we will develop a lot of things in that. And, and as you said before, we are loved by many people, and we have some haters that love to say bad things about you blow. I love haters. They're okay because they make a lot of publicity to the brand. Sometimes good ones, sometimes bad ones, of course. But what I want to do is often when you hate something, it's because you don't know and you ignore. And I have to say that even myself when I join you blow, I didn't expect such level of watchmaking skills again at you blow. So I would love to invite, and I'm doing it on a regular business to invite our haters to come and visit. Then you make your mind. Then you have the right not to like you blow for many reasons. It's fine. We all love and hate things. That's fine. But at least you know, at least you know why you love or why you hate. And that's something I want to, I want to welcome because I think it's fun. And I want really to get them into the manufacturer very soon. I got to say this, I've never met someone who doesn't like who blow who I haven't been able to convince should like who blow. It's a very easy thing to turn off their negativity. It's oftentimes superficial. It's very rarely based upon the product. I don't quite understand how many of them come to the conclusion. Also in some ways, because there's been that critical momentum, who blow is like the sports team which is easy to dislike. Like everyone still understands it's a serious sports team. But for whatever reason, it has like a villain quality. And there's really no reason behind it. So in a weird way, for honestly, very unfair reasons, your guilty of being like a brand that people like to hate because you have to, hey, there has to be a villain, right? They can't all be good guys. But the reality is, as I said, I've never met anyone that doesn't like the brand that I have been able to convince unless they simply like saying, you know, I have to, I have to dislike someone. I might as well dislike the popular one that's to dislike, right? I couldn't possibly be original in my dislike. Yeah. And you know, it's always clear that it's very difficult to say I hate a brand that stays in the middle of the road. You know, if you respect of the rules, if you don't bring colors, if you don't bring new things, how can you dislike such a brand? Because basically they do like all the other brands. You blow is so different. And you remember probably Jean-Claude Biver saying, first, unique and different. And that's still very true about it also. When you are different, basically you give room for people to hate you because you're not in the path. You're not staying the white, the white, the wise, the wise brand. And you blow is not, you blow is not, you know, I just launched a program at the manufacturer called Lise En Fonte-Hible. It is the terrible kids, okay? Which is about being innovative, being dynamic. And it's kind of a contest among all employees for those that will bring the craziest and the best IDs on different topics. And it's very dynamic, it's very cool. We just selected the first group of people yesterday morning. And it shows people that we are basically asking people to think out of the box and to bring new ideas. So this is who we are. This is our DNA. And whether people like it or not, we will be different. And I think it's part of the brand. Now, I'm curious, from your perspective, what was going on during a certain period of the brand's history? After Jean-Claude Beaver left and Ricardo Guadalupe took over, it was sort of in a wilderness mode. It wasn't the brand was silent, but Ricardo was not an expressive person in the way that Jean-Claude was. He was a manager. He was known as an executor. He was not known to be a charismatic public speaker. But I think a lot of people just fundamentally did not understand what was going on at the brand at the time. It seemed creatively inert. What was going on during that period of time based upon what you have now found? Yeah. I think, again, the brand was relaunched, I could say, by Jean-Claude Beaver in 2004 and 2005, the launch of the Big Bang. Then you had really, how can I say, 15 years of uninterrupted growth, which is probably one of the biggest growth, if you look from a market share, from a business, from sales point of view, it was incredible, you blew adventure. And I remember myself back in the days, people, again, saying, it's going to last a couple of years. It's just a fashion trend. It's going to leave. It's going to go away. It didn't. It stayed very strong all the way to the COVID years. Then we had this 21-22, where it was kind of a bubble in the watch industry. And you couldn't really, the numbers were so high for everyone that you couldn't really figure out what your weakness were becoming or what your strengths were and what was really happening in your brand. And I think during those years, you're right, the brand became a little bit quiet, a little bit capitalizing on the past, which is again against UBLO's DNA when it's always to build the future. And it was very important to rebound. So now, of course, 2023, it's kind of a wake-up call in the watch industry. After COVID, after bubble years, as I call them, we get into the new norm, the new reality. And this is where you see very clearly what's happening with the brands. And I personally believe that, again, UBLO is a brand that needs full energy, that needs innovation, new things at all levels, 360. So maybe there is a momentum in which UBLO became a little bit too quiet. UBLO cannot be normal. If UBLO becomes normal, UBLO is losing market share. If UBLO gets the way it should be, meaning out of the box and a bit crazy, we are gaining because this is what people are waiting for, are expecting for us. So my job is very clear. It's really to reactivate very strongly the strength of the brand. And you will see, and our people listening to us, they will see a lot of incredible products for next year. I just fully finalize the plan and it's going to be absolutely incredible next year what we're going to come with. I can't wait for 2026. And of course, marketing wise is going to be the same. We will show a lot of new things because that's what UBLO is all about. Second point, we talked about emotion and connection. I know two watch club officials that works very well. And UBLO was one of them back in the days. I remember Jean-Claude Biver inviting the guest to his home and doing a lot of things. This is a connection that we need to recreate. And that's about me traveling a lot, spending a lot of times. But I started already this year to do what I call UBLO. I don't do a single trip anywhere in the world without meeting clients. And that's important because this is not something that many brands CEO's are doing and I believe strongly into that. So, reactivate the connection to make our clients have an incredible experience with the brand at many different levels. So yes, this is what we are reactivating strongly with UBLO now. And I think this is what you will see in the next years. I'm glad to hear that you're willing to undertake some of that. I mean, I think people need to understand that that type of travel is exhausting and also prevents you from fundamentally running the business on a day-to-day basis. But one of the things I want to point out which has been part of UBLO's success going back to Jean-Claude Biver's leadership is something that we've seen equally successful in a completely different part of the industry, which is the micro brands. And I consistently ask people with the micro brands and the independence and the startups. What is it that you like about these brands? And I hear the same answer over and over again. They like being able to access the manner the woman who is the creator, the owner, the watchmaker. And Biver was that accessible person. As big as the company was and turned into, you could still message him. He still went out to meet you and shake your hand. And he wanted to make sure that each individual client liked the brand because of their interaction with him. And that made him in a lot of ways like the independent brand owner because he cared on a personal basis. Again, most brands see us. Most people aren't wired for that type of activity. But that is, I think, what you're talking about is it was a very personal brand because of him. It doesn't just have to be him. And it became cold and corporate because it is a corporate company. And you need that extra element. It's not going to be in the corporate handbooks. But somebody has to say, make everybody feel special and be there, you know, one of the best stories about he'd answer emails like right away all the time. I try to do that. And you know, it's again, it's almost superhuman. But you have to agree that he ran the company like it was a small independent family run business. True. No, no, you're totally right. And that's what people are looking for. You know, when you go to a restaurant and you and people know you and people, they get to know you because you've been there a few times and you get a special welcome and the owner is coming to shake your hand. You have a different experience. You feel you're part of it. You feel you have a special treatment. Even if you don't really, but I mean, you feel something special. And I think this is what people are buying. When they buy an expensive watch, we all know, I mean, a watch doesn't is not here to give you time. It's here to make you feel great to wear a highly qualitative watch. Yes. But all what comes around is becoming as much as important and the relationship with the brand is the same. That's why one of my plan and I can reveal it is and I would love to invite you very soon to see the third building of our manufacturer, age three, that is coming is coming up right now and that will be basically ready in one year from now. This facility, which doubles, more than doubles are today's surface of working our square footage will be as much dedicated for watchmaking, R&D with Mattias buta new materials and all the production aspect of it as to a hospitality. And I'm planning to do a very unique experience and the word is not big enough. It's going to be an incredible experience for visitors, for clients, for press, for everyone. Wonderful. I really have an incredible ambition and I have put together like ten things that you would never have in any watch brand. So this is to show you how much I give as a priority to our clients and their experience. So it's going to be a fantastic tool and you will see, give me a year so that we can open the building and you will see the experience will be absolutely stunning, absolutely stunning. Ace Jewelers of Amsterdam and German watchmaker Nommos are back with another exclusive set of 50 pieces to help celebrate the 50th anniversary of the popular and dynamic retailer of herology. This is not the duo's first successful collaboration with these new exclusive products being their eighth and ninth limited edition watches respectively. This time, Ace Jewelers and Nommos focus on two sizes in the Metro Neomatic Collection, each with a distinct palette of Dutch aristocratic orange colors. For centuries, orange has signified some of the core values of Holland, including personal freedom, tolerance, pride, and overall good cheer. Two distinct multi-color orange dials were created by the renowned designer Mark Braun for these new limited edition Metro Neomatic 35mm and Metro Neomatic 39mm models. Both of the watches contain Nommos's celebrated in-house made automatic caliber DUW 3,0001 mechanical movement, which are visible through the rear of the steel Metro Neomatic cases. Stylish and full of value, these are fine-time pieces with a fun regional flair that can appeal to enthusiasts everywhere. With included free worldwide shipping, price for the Ace Jewelers and Nommos Metro Neomatic 50th anniversary, limited edition watches start at 2,810 euros, excluding taxes. Learn more at acejewelers.com. I think that's so interesting that today, such a big part of the conversation, more so than even the recent history, is when you buy a watch, what else do you get with it? And we're talking about experiences. For some brands, it's, well, maybe you can sell it for more than you bought it. We know that that's usually BS, but that's an example of something you get with it. Some brands, you get access to events, you get invited to parties, maybe you meet celebrities. And I think that that's so crucial because when you have the ability to spend luxury watch money, you don't just want to wear something. You want to wear something that reminds you of feeling good. And when that brand hosts you or shows you something that you've never seen before, that you don't get to do that often, or simply has a good time with like-minded individuals, that watch becomes a reminder of fun. And everybody wants fun. And I think that that's really what it comes down to. As a brand, you have to sell more than just this wearable thing. You also have to package it with an experience that makes people want your thing versus the other person's thing. No, but it's so true. And you know, the word experience was basically used by everyone in any cases. But if you really go into each brand and you look at what is the experience I get beyond the fact that I saw an ad for a beautiful watch, I go to the boutique, they take my credit card. Thank you, bye bye. And they give you a very anonymous gift one month after six months after they send you a little leather wallet with the brand on it. Okay, what's the point? You know, I'm not talking about that. This is zero experience for me. When we work at tube law for our clients and you're right, it has to be custom made. If I invite everyone for a classical music concert, I mean, people who love it, they will be touched. But all people that prefer sport or a big party or something, you miss the target. So we have to know our clients and we have to custom made the experience we're going to do. Staying very authentic, we have to do it with our heart. You know, if you love tennis, I'm going to make sure, and you're a client of ours, I'm going to make sure you're part of our tennis event. You meet Djokovic. If you love football, soccer, I mean, I will invite you to the World Cup, to the Euro, to the Champions League, and I will make sure you have an incredible moment. But again, authentic. When I say authentic, our clients, they are pretty wealthy. Do they really like to go to a three star gastronomic restaurant? Yes, of course, they like it, but they can do it three times per week if they really want to, you know? But when you invite them for a special fondue experience, cheese fondue experience on top of the mountain, when you invite them as I did two weeks ago, to my place, to my place, you know, I don't have the same house like Djokovic be there. It's a bit smaller, but it's a nice place. And I love to invite clients and to my place because it's very authentic. And I cook and we do a barbecue, we do something, and we talk about people, we talk about watchmaking. And this is a real authentic, in-depth connection that a client can have with, with the brand, and of course, with myself, but also with matches between different people that are working in the industry. And I think this is what people are buying, and you are totally right. That's why people went to independent watchmakers because they could meet the owner, the founder, the creator. I'm not the founder, I'm not the creator, it's a teamwork, but I'm the ambassador of the brand today on a wide meaning of it, and I have to to do that. And honestly, between you and me, this is why I joined watchmaking industry. I've always worked this way. I always like that. I always like to get the truth from the clients, from the markets, to travel, to see people. And I'm in connection every day with clients. And I think this is what makes a lot of sense about our job. Yeah. Now, when the Big Bang came out in 2005, you know, just celebrated 20 year anniversary, it was not the only watch of his kind, but it was really revolutionary. It was large. It was architectural. It had a complicated case and dial. It was hyper masculine. Yeah. It just, it was a new genre of watch almost. And it opened up a big thing. And again, there was many other watches in there. And in some ways that that theme has run its course. It's not that those watches are less relevant. The Big Bang is a gorgeous watch today. But of course, it's not as revolutionary. And of course, you can't just easily say like, well, this is the next revolution. But the question is, what has changed about the world so that the next Big Bang, you know, necessarily has to be a little bit different. In what way would the Big Bang, if it came out today, be a little bit different? In the sense is, how can you, in your opinion so far, recapture that sense of doing something fundamentally different? As you said, in the 80s, it was merging rubbering gold. I get, I'm not saying you have the answer right now, but when trying to answer this question, which you no doubt are, what are some of the things that come to mind? Well, clearly, the, as you said, the Big Bang, my definition is big is bold. And that was the statement back in the days. We all know that watches are going from small to big, my trends a bit. So I don't believe we should change the Big Bang, the Big Bang should not become a small brand, a small bank, sorry, but we have to make sure that maybe it's more refined, maybe we work more on, on details, on perception, on their economy, on different things. This is how a design can evolve. And the Big Bang design is so strong. For me, it clearly is the first iconic brand of the 21st century. And even if people at, at the beginning, as I said before, believe it would be just fashion for a few years, no, the Big Bang is still here. It's very recognizable. It has its own identity. So our job is to make it evolve as 911 has been evolving in years, you know, by, by working on the codes, working on the design. This is a tough job because you have to respect some DNA, some code, some design aspect, but you have to make it change, make it evolve. So we are going to work on a lot on the economy, a lot on the details on the level of finishing. And of course, surprise with new materials, new things because this is the essence of, of Big Bang. Don't forget classic fusion. Also, that in that particular case, goes back to the roots are about Italian design, Italian elegance, Italian touch. How many Swiss brands have these Italian origins, not so many, but Mr. Croco, who lives in Milan, is an Italian person, and he really has this, this special touch. So this is something I want to reactivate also, you know, to go back on something that can be modern, contemporary, surprising, but having this extreme elegance is something I'm going to work on. You will see, you will see some development in the coming years. So Big Bang will stay Big Bang, but we evolved in the design, we evolved. And of course, classic fusion, we have a lot to be done on that particular line because it's one of the most iconic as well, and one of the, we are lucky to have two icons at UBLO. We have, we have two icons. Many brands that have one, if they do, we have two icons between the Big Bang and the classic fusion. And that gives me a lot of options for the years to come. No, you have an enormous amount to work with for sure. Now, in terms of materials, I've always been curious because UBLO has had traditional, you know, luxury materials, gold and diamonds and things like that, but you've incorporated a lot of things that are new. I mean, the list goes on from various types of carbons, ceramics, synthetics, concrete or whatever you want to call it, different icons and metals and things like that, you know, hybrids, ceramic gold that you do, magic gold. The question is, are consumers now okay with a brand saying this is a luxury material or is there still resistance? So like, okay, we understand gold, but carbon, you still have to convince me because I know that a lot of these things are in a sense priced the same and it doesn't cost you that much less to use, to use them. In fact, in some, it's more because the processing is more expensive than the raw material. But I'm just curious, if the perception and the consumer is advancing in the right direction, there's still a lot of stubbornness. Yeah, yeah. No, first of all, this level of understanding of new materials is differs from one market to the other. You have some markets much more mature, much more open to new materials and some other that are very conservative. You know, I was recently in India and I can tell you that in India, it's still all about gold. Yeah, it's all about gold. I mean, even if you go still, it's not very luxurious. Talking about steel. Steel is also considered a non-luxury material compared to gold, white gold, rose gold, yellow gold or platinum. But steel is very common in watchmaking and some watchers are sold for very expensive price with the steel. So I think it's more about exploring materials that you explain that manufacturing a watch in in sapphire or in ceramic and even worse when it's vivid colored ceramic is a real pain. It's all about the making. It's not so much the value of the material, but it's how difficult and how much time it takes to make a watch in XYZ material. Because honestly, steel, the whole watchmaking industry is mastering steel. There is nothing special about making a steel watch, but still it's one of the most used material today. It's the most used material today for watches. So I think it's more about the explanation that I think is still missing. Some people don't realize and that's what I'm going to put on stage also in the new manufacture when people visit to see much as literally on stage showing people how we grow sapphire, how we work on ceramic colors and the amount of work it takes. It's all about explaining people and telling people. Yeah, I agree with you. I had to experience a few months ago that really taught me this and I hadn't really thought about it. And what I learned was that before someone appreciates the material, they must have a relationship with the material. Let me give you an example. I was doing some work for citizen. We didn't event with them in New York and part of it was explaining to people about the super titanium material. And as you know, the number of consumers, even media that actually care about materials is small, right? And I know a lot about super titanium. And they said, you know, or we're having trouble selling super titanium watches to women. And at first, it was like, that doesn't make any sense. It's such a great material. It's lightweight and scratchers distant. Like women should absolutely love this. And I realized as I did more discussion and thought, women do not have a lot of other products they buy, which are titanium. Men have certain performance items. We sort of idolize it. And, you know, I don't know, everything from golf clubs to bicycle frames. And it's, we know that if titanium this, titanium knives, titanium tools, women don't have like titanium, you know, makeup brushes. I'm not trying to be like stereotypical. But they just don't have access to the same type of titanium tools. Therefore, they associate it with kind of not attractive color. It's not particularly expensive in terms of their mind. It's not pretty. They don't think of of titanium as being exciting. Whereas the guy might get really excited about it. So that's when I realized, you know, for you to care about a gold watch, you must first be educated the watch that gold is desirable, right? And that's what I'm saying is the case. And so I think that's a lesson in terms of how to educate the consumer, right? It's true. It's true. It's clearly about explaining and the type of look, the type of color you get with the materials. But not only, you know, we often talk and I talk a lot about comfort and ergonomy. I'm someone when you present me in your watch and you prototype, I'm going to look at it in terms of design. But I'm going to put it on my wrist and I'm going to touch every aspect of the watch because a comfortable watch is also a watch that when you grab it from your table and you put it on your wrist. Even when you grab it, it has to be a good feeling. Otherwise, you don't really feel like putting it on your wrist. And some watches are very sharp, are very edgy, and I think we need to work even more on that and to be clear with you on some of the new materials, we bring a level of comfort when you put it on your wrist that you can never get with other materials. And by the way, I'm working on a project on having working on the new material, basically, that will bring probably the softest watch in the world, you know, the watch that will be like wearing silk around your wrist. And that could be something yeah, that's come by. It's all about new materials and new things, but I was a lot into this ergonomy thing and we did some research and it's not that you can bend the watch, of course, it has to be rigid to hold the movement and to be resistant enough. But in terms of touch, if we can make it because we're still researching, but it could be the softest and the nicest watch you have on your wrist. So that's very good. And for me, it's about comfort. So it could be meaningful to women as well. No, and that's that's the exciting thing that you can't have in a picture. You can't really explain in words. You have to touch it. First of all, you have to have sharp watches. Then you have to have the opposite of it and be like, Oh, that's that's really, really nice. But I, I totally hear you. And that's I again, I love that you're hinting at all the stuff. And I'm glad because I think that's what people wanted from a blow is every, you know, several months. Oh, wow. I had no idea. Anybody was working on that. I'm glad that, you know, they blow is doing it. I'm excited by this. Maybe I can't buy it, but I want to read about it. And and that's what's awesome. I have a creative question. And this is, I get every brand CEO, I think has this issue. And you need you need to push the brand into direction every that's that's that's that's known. Every time you need to you come out with a new watch, you don't want it to look like the last watch when you come out with new collections. You don't want them to be regurgatory. But there's a real problem when it comes to how to decide what new stuff to make. You can't make all the designs that designers come up with. And you hire different designers and you get mockups and you see all this incredible stuff. You have to narrow it down. You have to make some definitely not all not most. How do you figure out what designers to trust? Yeah, that's that's a great question. As far as I'm concerned, I love to have the the mix or the debates, I would say, between internal and external, first of all. And I have a great team of designers that are part of the Hublot team. I've been so much into product over the last nine months that I'm very close to them and I spend so much time with them working on the new collection. But I also trust a lot of people that are building an external eye that are not here to tell me that I'm right. If I decide to go left or to go right, you know, they're going to tell me what they really believe is good for the brand and what they really believe from their designer perspective, what we should do as you blow. And that's what I need. You know, it's always good to get an external opinion because sometimes they can tell you things that you wouldn't hear from from from your own stuff. So I like this balance. I think it makes me think about it. It gives me doubts also about my choices. And how I how I choose an external designer, it's going to be a lot about relationship trust. I love these diners that are listening to you and to your needs to what you need for the brand. You know, some designers, they think they understand and they want straight to the point go to I want to make this and that and that, say, listen first because maybe the UBLO you have in mind is not the UBLO I want to build for the coming years. And it's the listening part is very important for me. And that it's a lot about, again, trust and relationship. Yes, I would say that's that's what we can we can say. Yeah. One of the difficult things in a consensus culture, which is much of Switzerland in terms of the creative process is who gets the final say because while it's great to have a consensus culture in a lot of ways, it actually can kill the creative process. Only one person can decide. It's just it's not a matter of someone's better than someone else. You just can't have a design by committee. It just doesn't just doesn't work. And so one of the things that I understand was good about Jean Claude, even though it wasn't necessarily something he always thought of as being this best quality was the decisiveness we could just say let's let's go with that. And people just said, okay, if that's what he wants, is that something that you sort of need to do? Because I can appreciate how there's so many equal voices and so many equally potential directions to go in. At some point, you just have to decide whether you're the leader or someone else's, but isn't it true that like really just one person can decide these things? Yeah, of course, no, of course, of course. And I think it's sometimes it's a lot about egos and things and I make it I make it very simple. I'm someone listening to the different opinions. Sometimes I change my opinion, which is fine. It's not a problem to change your opinion if someone is convincing you about. No, it's a wise thing to do. Absolutely, that's why I pay people for to make me think about it twice and make sometimes change. Sometimes I stick to my my first idea, but at the end of the day, that's my job. That's my job. And I love products. You can do the best things in marketing. You can have the best distribution network at campaign, whatever you want. At the end of the day, we are selling watches and the watches have to be the right ones and have to be perfect. So I'm responsible for this and I'm clearly the one making the final decision. And it's it's we work as a team. We debate. They try to convince me on this and sometimes it works. But at the end of the day, I'm going to give the final green light on yes, we go, no, we don't. We postpone it. We do it tomorrow, etc. So that's that's a responsibility. I'd love to have and I'm excited for it. I'm shifting topics altogether. So don't don't be shocked at the abrupt change. But I want to talk about completely different side of the business, which is the consumer experience. In fact, the buying experience. And one of the things I've recognized today is that and I've said that there's too much segmentation in the market. There's too many ways of buying watches. My question is if we're up to you, which in a way it is, how do you want people to buy a new blow? And this isn't like the way that makes you the most money, it goes back to the experience. What do you think is the best way? And again, having the consumer's interest in mind to physically go or even if it's online, if you want. But how do you think the transaction, the buying experience should be like for UBLO? So, you know, first of all, I would reverse a bit the question saying that the clients are the ones deciding how they want to buy a new blow. In that sense, in that sense, I always disagree with brands that want to go 100% retail. Because when you go retail, you have your own boutique. Basically, they enter a new blow boutique, people are paid to tell them that UBLO is the best brand in the world. That's normal. Like in any brand, okay? We sell technical products. We sell complicated products. Any brand, I mean, there's a movement, it's complicated. So, people don't always have the level of knowledge we do as industry players. And sometimes it's very important that they want to enter a new blow boutique. They're going to have the UBLO experience. They want to enter a multi-brand that I'm really supporting a lot or multi-brand partners. It's fine because they need to understand they want to have a neutral advice. When you enter a multi-brand and you say I want a nice cool innovative chronograph, they should put you below on the tray, but they might put three or four other brands next to it. And that's fine. That's good. I think that's good. I think it's good. It's the right of the clients to choose their own experience. The guy who wants to buy from home and wants to go on our e-commerce site fine as well. What I'm really willing for is to push our clients to become UBLO TICA member, to become part of the community. Because this is where they're going to get a way different experience. This is where, and it goes beyond the extra year warranty that you may get or the little gift for your birthday. It goes far beyond that. And I think this is where the buying experience will take its dimension. We'll really take a different level, especially in the coming years with what we are working on. If I talk about client experience, I'm recommending people to do that. I'm recommending people to really sign on because it's something special. Now I get in contact with them through this channel. This is also a great way for me to better understand our clients and to listen to them. No, it's a very healthy response in terms of saying the best way to buy is the way that the consumer wants, which is, as you said, not what all of your colleagues feel. Many of them have very specific ideas about how they want people to spend their money and where. But I agree, it's a very practical mindset. Now for some context, I want to explain to people that an UBLO TICA is a cute way of saying an UBLO fan. And it was a community. It was a forum that was online years ago, I actually don't know if it's still around or anything like that, but it was a place for UBLO to connect to people that liked UBLO watches. This started because going back to Jean-Claude B. Fair, he was someone that's participated in online forms. He was a member of the online community. And someone in UBLO said, could you probably, could you just do it on our own website? And he's like, okay, fine. Because he loved interacting with the clients so much. What you're saying is that, well, it might not come back the exact way that it did a while ago is a bit outdated. You want the direct connection between UBLO and UBLO fans to be reignited and sounds like bigger and better than before. I guess I can tell you, I will invest a lot of time, a lot of money in developing this UBLO TICA community because I can feel the huge power behind it, the huge potential. That's what people are expecting. Again, there have been many clubs. I only know two that have been really successful and meaningful to clients. And I would mention Panerai with the Panerai, because I think it did a great job back in the days. And of course, you blow with the UBLO TICA. And the personal touch given by Jean-Claude B. Fair gave it a great dimension. And again, it's big shoes to wear. So I'm not thinking to take over what Jean-Claude did exactly, but I will give it my own style, my own way of doing. We have plenty of ideas to make people feel that being part of UBLO TICA, you're not going to be harassed by offers and things and new models because this is the worst. You kill the emotion if you become too commercial. It's not about being commercial. It's about giving a real great time to our UBLO owners, attending events when they want, joining us for special things, when they want, when they feel like, and really giving them a lot more than just, okay, you receive a catalog and you're a part of the community and nothing special happens. Now, it's better not to do than to do under this. So with UBLO TICA, we will go much, much further from the visit to the manufacturer all the way to access to special services in terms of from after sales, to manufacture, visit, to events. It's going to be an incredible experience. And I'll make sure that we talk a lot about that in the coming years. That's fantastic. I'm so curious of having more discussions with you in the future because I want to learn about that. I of course have feedback that I think would be valuable to you. From a business perspective, one of the things that we've all noticed how in over the last several years, investment in the luxury industry has gone down in terms of especially the ownership brands. Budgets have been tightened in a lot of ways to a point where a lot of the things you're talking about have not become affordable to a lot of brands. Now, my question is this, can the business model that watch brands need to need to be today? Can you reconcile that with the spending which is necessary, unadvertising, on events, on this marketing collateral, on these clubs? Can you do it all? Yeah, it's a great question because you're right. We can't do everything 200%. There are things that you're going to do 100%. There are things you might make a strategic decision to do less and there are some that are priorities and it's a question of choice and cost of opportunity. I mean, I strongly believe that clients are the best ambassadors, are the people that will talk well about your brand, will talk to their friends about the brand. I strongly believe into that and taking care of our clients, being close to our clients, giving them an incredible experience will be my number one priority. So, I might cut on other budgets, you're right, but I think this is the best engine for the brand because again, it's all about emotion. It's all about special moments. Why would you buy a watch? It's because buying that watch or being part of that particular brand will make you feel so special. Again, I'm coming back to the restaurant example. I have great food at home, thanks to my wife. I can go to plenty of restaurants. Why would I go back to that particular place? Because I feel special because something is happening. It's not only a red carpet effect. It is more authenticity. I feel I feel I'm part of it and that's what I heard a lot about Eublo meeting a lot of clients over the last nine months. People feel different and special at Eublo and they want this to be reignited in a strong way. So, that would be my number one priority. Yeah. I think the one feeling that I got from a lot of the Eublo events I went to and there's a while where I went to a lot of them. So, I definitely got a sense of the vibe, especially compared to the other brands. And you know what, word comes to mind is non-judgmental. But that's the thing, a lot of brands, I'm not saying I was judged, but you just sort of felt like there was a lot of judgmentalism going on. Like, you had to look a certain way, you had to dress a certain way. At Eublo events, I loved how, again, it wasn't, I don't want to use the word inclusive because it's not right. It's just non-judgmental. Like, just come as you are. We're just, we're having fun. We're all kind of weird guys here and gals. We're just, and it was just non-judgmental. And I remember that was such a strong force at so many Eublo events. And it really contrasted with a lot of the other events, which as you know, people were a lot more, you know, buttoned up and trying to be on their best behavior and trying to dress the right way. And no one's really letting loose and having a good time. But that's what I remember. Is that sort of what you mean a little bit? Ah, so much, you know, I'll give you a couple of examples. But first of all, I believe that it's a common mistake in in luxury watches, but in luxury industry in general. You think, again, that you need to give a three-mission star experience, that you need to be dressed with a tie and a suit. And you think that I've experienced dinners or events where you feel that if you don't know about movements in details, technical, you're not there. You're shy because you might be feeling bad because you don't know enough. You know, that's wrong. Sometimes you people just want to be, want to have fun. You know, many of our clients from all the brands, they are very wealthy. When you are very wealthy, you don't need to wear a suit and tie every day, you know. And sometimes you're just enjoying to be in a nice fun shirt and shorts. And you want to have a good time. And you have great clients, you're buying a lot of watches, but it doesn't mean you need to be so formal. So UBLO is the opposite of that. And recently, I was doing a UBLO T-Star events in different countries in Asia. And in one of them, there was a singer and she started to make people sing. And then she came to me and I was like, okay, I'm the CEO of the brand, I'm new, people know me and don't know me. Should I sing? Should I not sing? And I took the mic. I went on stage with a couple of clients and we started to sing together. And it created such a bond with that group. Another guy made a WhatsApp group and we kept in touch. And they were like, you know what? This is why we like UBLO because this is fun. And you didn't, you didn't, I'm not a great singer, by the way, but I was like, okay, we're going to have a good time. And we're going to, and they will remember that moment because I went on stage and I was like, you know what? Let's have fun together. And this is so UBLO. So you are absolutely right. At UBLO, we want people to feel, to feel at their place, to feel comfortable. You know about watches a lot, you don't know a lot about watches, but you're just like a nice pink or yellow sapphire watch. Fine, that's okay. That's your right. You're buying something to have a good time. And that's what we do. So this is something you will still feel. We won't do some very, you know, dressy collectors dinner. If you want to have a masterclass about watchmaking, we will be able to offer it. But if you really don't want to do it, and you prefer to go to a soccer match or to have a big UBLO vibe, the summer party in Central Bay or in the Hamptons, we're going to do it as well. So it's more about making people feel good. Now these days, that, you know, investing in that means having more than just you available to do this travel. I've noticed that a lot of brand, you know, owners, founders, CEOs at all levels are, they love all this travel, but it's fatiguing and unrealistic to do as much. We mentioned it earlier on. You have to hire people underneath you that may not be as good as you, but can do it in your stead in different languages and different parts of the world. That's sort of not entirely new type of hire, but you know, it's a new type of arm to the business. How do you hire people like that? How do you think you even train people like that? Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. Thank you for asking because it's a discussion I have on a weekly basis with my HR team and how do we get the right people with the right profiles? We have plenty of great people, but recently we had to, we had to stop with a couple of employees not because they were not performing, not because they were not working hard or they did something wrong, but because they were just not the right fit for the brand. And if you're not willing to really embrace the brand values and that kind of profile, it's not going to work. It's not going to work. You blow is a very specific brand and that you need to have a certain level of profile. It doesn't mean that you have to party every day and you have to drink wine every day as well, but you have to understand that all clients are willing to get into the brand to feel those you blow vibes. And if you don't have those ones in you, you cannot be there. It's okay. It's just a question of fit. So it's a great question because we had a couple of cases to solve. And when I hired people, I read a couple of months ago, I read from a top CEO in the US and I loved it. He said in a totally different industry. He said, "You know what? When I hired someone, I'm basically, of course, looking at the working experience, the diplomas, what is this, is done, he or she has done, etc., old, what you need to check." And at the very end of the interview, I'm wondering, I'm questioning myself, do I really want, do I want to go for lunch with that person for one hour? And I love it because it's a selection prisma that's so different from the other ones. But at the end of the day, if you are ill, you want to have lunch with that person or not. It means a lot because it means that your clients, your supplier, your retailers, your press, they will basically enjoy one hour with that person. And if they don't, you have to question yourself, especially when a brand is so relationship oriented like you blow. So I'm using that and thanks to this famous person because I'm using that because I think it's a great tool. Does this person has the right energy, the right behavior, the right personality to be representing you blow? And we are all ambassadors when you work for brand. So that's a very, very important point that you are talking about. Well, look, that's very exciting. You're painting a great picture of the blow of today and the one that you will continue to develop. And I think what's excellent is all of it is underpinned by great movements and great fundamentals. The core architecture and construction of the watches. I mean, you can get top level hotel luxury out of some of your watches at the top level. I mean, you can really do it all. So again, it's all built on the foundation of solid, you know, technical, technicalities and a real competency. Again, I know you'll be successful. I wish you luck in navigating all the personalities and egos that you mentioned. I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, it's as fun as it sounds to be the CEO of a major luxury watch brand. It's also comes with a lot of headaches. So you are, you are a man of courage and determination. And please update me with, you know, some of these developments because you've hinted at so many things that are exciting. You know, so again, we're basically out of time, Julian, but I just want to have everyone go to the UBLO website. Check out their latest watches. Of course, check out the latest watch reviews on UBLO on a blog to watch. I'm currently reviewing the Squarebang actually, which I think is really comfortable and cool. I really enjoy it. Julian, is there anything else that you want to say to anyone or anywhere else on the internet you want people to go to learn about you or the brand? Well, I think I've covered a lot and thank you very much, Arielle, for your questions. It's always a great discussion, interaction. It's a great moment, basically. So I didn't see time going. No, what I would add is basically, yes, website, social media, join us in the UBLO to start when you own a new blog because that's going to make the difference. I think you understood that. And if you, you know, I worked, I lived five years in the US. It's a country I cherish a lot. My son is half Swiss, half American. And I basically go back to the US a lot. So I'm looking forward to meet a lot of our clients, but also if you travel to Europe and if you have a day to stop by Switzerland, let us know. I would love to welcome you and show what you know is all about in a very cool casual way, but great experience. And that's something I want to develop even more. So I would love to have people listening to us, joining us in Switzerland as well. Arielle, you'll be one of the first ones to visit our new manufacturer facility. A wonderful open invitation from Julian Turnare, CEO of UBLO. Julian, thank you so much. We hope to enjoy this episode of the superlative podcast. This show relies on support from you, the audience. Please subscribe, review, and share superlative with your friends. To get the latest watch news and enthusiast commentary, also listen to the blog to watch weekly podcast. For show ideas, comments, or business, please contact us at
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