Injections, Bone Hammering and the Pursuit of Peak Male Beauty

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitchrow F. This is the Sunday Daily. There's a corner of the internet where young men spend hours rating each other's bodies. They evaluate the length of their midfaces and the distance between their pupils. They take testosterone and inject fat dissolving compounds into their jaws. They hit themselves in the cheekbones with hammers. They call what they do "looks" maxing, and their community, which started as a subculture, is now bursting into the mainstream. Their particular way of speaking popped up at last week's Oscars and has been used by the Pentagon. They even made it to Saturday Night Live. No offense, but you're sitting there gesturing like a subhuman beta cuck, meanwhile I'm out here or a maxing like an S tier giga chat. The rise of this movement has a lot to do with the ascendance of its biggest star, clavicular, a 20-year-old influencer whose most deeply held belief is that looks are genuinely all that matters. Today, I talk with my colleague, Joe Bernstein, about why the ethos of looks maxing appeals to so many young men and what its resident says about our culture. It's Sunday, March 22nd. Joe, welcome to the Sunday Daily. Great to be here. So we are about to embark on a conversation about looks maxing, which we should acknowledge as a made-up word. It is an internet meme community-turned cultural phenomenon, inspiring dozens of articles in every magazine and newspaper that you've heard of, including ours. And all of that attention, as far as I can tell, essentially boils down to everyone trying to understand what exactly this trend actually is and what it means about our culture. So let's start there. What is looks maxing? So looks maxing is a community of mostly men on the internet who are dedicated to making themselves more attractive by any means necessary. And what does that mean, exactly? What I mean is that there's almost no end to what they'll do to make themselves more attractive, according to their standards, from things that most people do like showering and getting a good night's sleep, to ordering experimental chemicals from China, to taking hormones to getting surgeries, and this is one of the most sort of noteworthy things that they do. They tap their facial bones of the hammer on the theory that by causing lots of microscopic damage to the bone, it will grow back bigger and more attractive. Just so wild. Okay. So who are these people, these bone tapers? Right. To understand looks, Macsars, we have to start with the internet community of in cells. These are young men who describe themselves as involuntarily solid. These guys believe because they aren't conventionally attractive, because they weren't born with the right genes. We're talking tall, broad shoulders, strong jawline, all the above, that they'll never be capable of attracting and getting a mate. Right. Are known for being a sometimes violent, often very hateful group of people, especially toward women? Right. Yeah. It's a pretty nihilistic subculture. The idea is that if you aren't attractive enough, your life is over. Looks, Macsars, are an offshoot of that ideology that is slightly less fatalistic. They're very, very harsh about their appearance and about the role that attract them this plays in life outcomes. But they also think it's possible to move past physical shortcomings by going to extreme lengths to improve their physical appearance. To hammering your face. That's right. And it's important to say that they're all aiming for a very specific ideal of beauty. And what is that ideal, defined for me? Well, the ideal is a white guy. I mean, there's no getting around that. This movement has been accused of being outright racist. There's no room in this sort of subculture for a face that isn't white in its standards of what's beautiful. In fact, last year, Wired had a story about a black guy who tried to make looks, Macs, and content. And he was sort of racially harassed out of the subculture. Yeah. So that definitely sounds racist. Yeah. And if you go on the looks, Macs, and Forum, the rhetoric is frequently pretty racist, nihilistic. It's nasty. Looks, Macsers might dismiss that accusation as dumb or that they're being ironic or deliberately shocking, but they don't really do anything to disprove it. In fact, their ideal of beauty is a specific actor, a white actor named Matt Boemer. Look him up if you don't know what he looks like. And they measure these ratios and features on their face. So it's like very important to them. The distance between their pupils, the distance from their nose to their upper lip, the slant of their eyes, whether they're upwardly slanted or townurally slanted, the amount of upper eyelid that they show, really kind of granular details about the face that you and I probably have never thought about. And they obsess about this stuff on online forums, and that's where they post photos, brutally criticize each other, and share various techniques for maximizing their looks to become more like Matt Boemer, essentially. Right. The idea of maximizing your looks, that's where you get the word looks maxing sort of. So it's a bit of internet lingo that initially comes from the world of role playing games. So like think of dungeons and dragons and final fantasy, basically at the beginning of the game, you get a set number of points to distribute to your character. And the idea is that those guys are taking all of those points and feeding them only into a single bucket, and that's their looks. And all of this is basically what, in service of attracting women kind of, but not completely. And this is where looks maxing is actually different from the insult culture we talked about earlier. So in cells are completely focused on women and how they've been unfairly treated by women. Looks maxers may start from that place, but they treat women and women being attracted to them as much more of a status symbol. It's a sign to looks maxers that they've started to do something that they call ascend. And what does it mean to ascend? So ascend is a kind of key concept in the looks max or cosmology. The idea is essentially that they have moved from a state of ugliness to a state of beauty and that the status is their reward. It does seem as though the looks maxers are very focused on other men and how they view each individual member of this community. How they rate each other. Totally. It's a community that is really focused on comparing yourself favorably or unfavorably to other men. And there's a term they use for this. It's called "mogging." "Mogging." "Mogging." So "mogging" is when you prove yourself superior to someone else. So if you're more attractive than another man, you're mugging him. Your looks mugging him. You're beating him in the status game. You could be height-mogging him. You could be hair-mogging him. You could be jaw-mogging him. The ability to attract women is just one part of that status game. Okay. So how does this small subset of people online, this niche, become much more mainstream? What's the story there? Right. So the explosion of looks maxing into the kind of highest reaches of pop culture was really due to one guy and he's a guy who calls himself "clavicular." What's going on, fellas? Today I want to do a little bit of a review on Tarzippan's side, or Mjarno, whatever you want. So "clavicular" was born Braden Peters. He's a 20-year-old internet personality and a live streamer. And he first gained some degree of recognition within the actual looks, max, and community. So he comes from the community itself. And he was a guy who was one of the most frequent posters on the message board, but also someone who is sort of willing to push looks, maxing techniques as far as they would go on the board itself. And what exactly does that mean? So basically, when Peters was a teenager, he started experimenting with all these techniques. What's up? I just want to give a comprehensive overview of SARMS, or selective antigen receptor modules. But not only that, as he's doing this, he's also posting all the time on this forum about his results. I want to go over what SARMS stack you should run for each of your specific goals. So he's almost like a guinea pig for all these other guys who are interested in looks, maxing. He's evaluating methods, he's sharing his results. He's giving instructions for people on the forum for how to try these things themselves. And that within the community, it sort of made him the main character. So how does he get bigger than just this one place? Hey, what's going on guys? I, you know, I'm sure you guys saw the title of this video and, you know, we're interested to see what happens. So I want to do this video as a little bit of a story time. Okay. So, Clavicular is a teenager, and when he's 18, he goes to college. Bring his trash from here. at my university. He gets caught with a bunch of steroids in his dorm room and gets kicked out. So I'm not exactly sure which person on the forum decided to go ahead and do this, but I know it was someone from the LuxMax forum, unfortunately, so I guess they got the best of me. And this is an extremely important moment for him. Now I am able to fully dedicate my time to LuxMaxing, so I think this is going to wind up being a blessing in the end. Because from here on out, he decides to devote himself completely to LuxMaxing. He goes all in. All in. Are we up? Oh, finally. Boys, boys, boys, boys. How are we doing today? And as a part of that, he starts streaming these live videos of himself on KICK, which is a platform, like, sort of a more extreme version of Pritch. Your body fat is the first thing that's holding you back. I can't even tell if you're mugging or not. And he does videos where he's raiding people and he's going out in the world and talking to people. But real quick question, because everybody on this ring world says I'm like super ugly and super hideous, and I look cracked out. What are your first initial thoughts on, like, my looks, bro? I would say that you're around average to slightly about average and looks. So, you know, all this catches the attention of some larger, more widely known streamers. So you got 3.5. Why and how can she improve? Well, she, her mid face is way too long. And these guys put him on their streams, because he's such a kind of a character you can't look away from. Uh, you know, all the facial convexities are wrong, her radix is recessed. Moving on. Okay, well, how much time do we have on the podcast now? Part of the reason he becomes so famous so quickly is that he's obviously courting controversy. I was going to talk about a controversial, um, lean maxing hack. I don't know if you want to. So he was talking about the really extreme things he'd done to stay thin. For three days, uh, I spammed a combination of aterol and, um, methamphetamine for, uh, appetite suppression. Like, for example, taking meth, taking meth, taking meth. We're about to do some fat dissolver, guys. And another controversial incident actually live on stream. He injected some fat dissolving peptides into the face of his then 17 year old girlfriend. Chat, we're looks maxing your, we're looks maxing your, it's all good. Dr. Clive? Yeah. My god. And then he goes on stream with controversial figures like Nick Flantess and Andrew Tate. The figure's stronger than me. Bro, you're all fucking young man on every fucking injection drug in the world. I'm an old man on cigars. That's it. So he goes in a club in Miami and they're all chanting along to the Kanye West song, Hill Hiller. Okay, I mean, he's associating with them. He's singing Hyal Hitler with them. I mean, I know you said looks maxers dismiss accusations of racism as stupid, but here you have another overt example of it. Yeah. And like, clavicular routinely uses the N word. Wow. Yeah, I asked him about it. And again, he said it was dumb. Basically meaning other reporters trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. But you can't really trivialize using the N word. It's just racist. Right. He's not really giving any thought to the harm this language might cause. To him, to looks, maxers. It's just another kind of trolling, which is probably why they're so glib about using it. And after all, on the internet in 2026, that gets clicks. It's a way of growing an audience. And so for someone like clavicular who comes out of a kind of men's internet, or really a teenage boy's internet, using these guys as a way to become more famous would seem like the most natural thing in the world. And now that he's gained a degree of renown, he's actually distance himself to some degree from this kind of rhetoric. I would say, sort of, people don't really know how to handle my ideology. So they want to figure out which political camp I'm a part of so desperately. He says a lot. And he told me he doesn't care about politics. And that in fact, here's another one of those looks, maxing terms. Politics are gesture. It's not something that I want to involve myself in. Politics is gesture. What is gesture? Okay. So gesture basically means anything where you're making a fool of yourself for others to get attention. And that's a waste of time. My main pursuit is that of aesthetics and improving my looks to the maximum degree. So the fact that that's become a political phenomenon just really doesn't make sense to me at all. Got it. So how viral at this point is he going exactly? So on kick, which is the streaming platform. It's sort of clavicular raw, the raw clavicular feed. At any given time, there might be 10,000 people just watching what he does. Okay. But of course, the internet deals in large numbers, huge numbers. And where those really start to rack up is all of these people who are watching his stream and taking clips from the raw feed. And they take these clips and they upload them to the much bigger social media platforms. TikTok, Instagram. And if you think about that, that circle, it's millions and millions of people, people like us. And where people who are just sort of internet fluent and use social media, that's where we encounter clavicular. And that's how I first noticed him. And I guess when I started noticing him, I started wondering about who is this guy? What motivates him? Where does he come from? What does he want for the future? And that's why I wanted to go to Arizona and meet him. Which is exactly what you did. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to have you tell us about what it was actually like to sit down with clavicular in person and what you learned about what actually drives this guy. We'll be right back. So Joe, I am dying to know what were your first impressions when you meet clavicular? First of all, where did this meeting happen? Like set the scene for me. So clavicular was in the Phoenix area to host a few parties. So that's where I went to Phoenix. Phoenix is also one of the test markets for Waymo, the self-driving car. And so I'd taken a Waymo to the Airbnb he was staying at in Tempe. But the Waymo dropped me off like a 15 minute walk from the Airbnb. And there's like nothing you can do. There's no driver to say like actually this is not where I want to go. And so like it's Arizona is hot. So like by the time I actually get to the Airbnb, I'm like kind of sweaty and disheveled. I'm like a 41 year old dad. And I'm like about to meet this 20 year old like face of the internet. And I'm just kind of thinking like what am I doing here exactly? So if I was to say you're conscious of your appearance in this moment for many reasons. I'm conscious that I'm not looks maxing at them. Okay, okay. So clavicular's cameraman and sort of personal assistant opens the door. And clavicular walks out of his bedroom where he's just woken up. Okay, so you're sitting down with him. What's the conversation like? Tell me about it. So before I get into the conversation, it might be useful to understand what I sort of thought I was there to figure out. Sure. Because there's hundreds of hours of clavicular online. He said almost anything. So in some ways, it's like, well, what's the point of interviewing someone like this? What I was trying to figure out is to what extent is this a put on? And to what extent does he actually live and believe this stuff that he's become really famous for all of this? He sort of had popped up on a lot of people's social levels in the past. And how do you do that? Well, like any time I'm profiling someone, I asked him to talk about his childhood. The beginning to the beginning. Where are you from? What was growing up like for you? What's your parents? You know, that kind of everyday? Well, so I grew up in a pretty small town called Hoboken, New Jersey. Hoboken, New Jersey. Hoboken. I love really like the Nerf cons growing up. He said he was an obsessive sort of a hyper fixated kid. You know, so I wasn't like calling me to get one of these. I had to have like 50, was kind of like my personal entry. And then in high school, like it does for a lot of us, things got rough for a clavicular. And then when I went to high school, I went pretty far away. So, you know, I didn't know anyone, and they all knew each other. And so one of the ways he decides to kind of deal with that is by getting into bodybuilding. Well, so I just started kind of working out. I had like a little home gym. Yeah, thing in my basement. But he was spending a lot of time on the internet, like any red-blooded American kid in the 21st century. And he discovered testosterone, the hormone testosterone. You know, I was kind of thinking to myself, well, if this tool exists, and I, you know, seen videos about it on YouTube and come across different, like forum posts, it's like sort of like a cheat code is how I thought about it. It's like, why would I not do this? And to him, it seemed like a no-brainer. He wanted to get bigger and stronger, and he wanted to do that as efficiently as possible. Yeah, that if I could accelerate my progress in the gym with a simple pharmaceutical intervention, that of course, I'm gonna do it. So he found a way to get it online, and he ordered it. And it's your 14 when you started taking TRG? Yeah. Okay. So it sounds bad, but I turned 15 a month later. Okay. So he keeps it a secret at first, but his parents eventually end up finding the testosterone, taking it away. And according to Clivicular, it starts this whole cycle where he's ordering it, getting caught. And my parents sort of just like, you know, wanted, you know, to be kind of ignorant about it, you know, meaning they thought you might be doing it, but didn't introduce it. Yeah, they just didn't want to have to deal with it anymore. And eventually his parents basically threw their hands up and say, "We can't stop this, you're just too determined." Because they realized after a certain point of me, like, reordering it and getting PO boxes, that there was kind of nothing that they could do to stop my ascension. That's the one thing I would never let anyone stop, you know, me from ascending. Okay. So it sounds like this origin story is telling you, this is a kid who maybe felt isolated in high school, who found this hormone therapy as a way of escaping that and pursued it relentlessly. And you can see him looking at this as something that's paid it off for him. Obviously now it's paying him a lot of actual money, but it also helped him, he would say, ascend. You could see why he might be committed to getting other people the same benefits. Sure. I mean, from his point of view, from the moment he started really caring about his looks, his life has changed and look where he is now. Okay. And just to return to what you were trying to get out of this conversation, an understanding of the extent to which this actually was an authentic pursuit for a clovicular, the extent to which he genuinely believes in the lifestyle that he is pitching to others, what does this origin story tell you about that? One interesting thing that I got from clovicular is that whenever I asked him to introspect in an emotional way, he was a little uncomfortable and pretty clipped. Got it. But when I asked him questions about the actual sort of substance of looks maxing, he would go on and on and on and be genuinely excited to talk about it. So far be it for me to psychopathologize subject, a story subject, but clovicular talks a lot about being on the autism spectrum. I think I'm, I'm different in terms of, you know, the way that I think I would say it's just more of a neurodiversion. He says he's never gotten an official diagnosis, but it's sort of part of his understanding of himself. I don't think being a normie is good. I think, yes, very happy with my brain chemistry and my vision on the world. I think it's one of the best gifts ever, you know, that I'm able to have this. And one way you maybe see this is his obsessive focus on numbers and statistics, including his own, which are what are his own stats. So how tall are you? I'm six foot two. Six to how much do you weigh? One hundred and eighty pounds. Okay. Do you know any other measurements of the top of your head? Yeah. Right now, my bydaltoid is only twenty one inches. So you might know how tall you are, how much you weigh. He knows things like his biocromial width, which is the span of your clavicle. That's where he gets his name, clavicular from. I believe that's around nineteen point five inches. Okay. To rematch that. What about your face? He has a mid-face ratio. That's the distance between the pupil and the mouth. Uh-huh. Divided by the distance between your pupils. These are just things I know now. Lucky you. That would be one point zero seven. Okay. So my mid-face is a little bit short. It should be. Meaning you wouldn't like the world that would be a little, you'd stretch it out a little bit. Very slightly. Like with a character creator and role-playing games. So I would do that. Yeah, this is like the kind of thing I do on Photoshop. He's tracking this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Obsessively. And he also tracks, has to keep track of all the things that he takes. What's your stack right now? What do you take every? Yeah. He told me he wasn't able to tell me everything that he's ever taken, because it would essentially take so long. Wow. He did list a number of the things that he was on at the moment. I'm on 25 milligrams of acutane. I'm on 12 milligrams of red a true tide. So he's on testosterone. A GLP called red a true tide that's currently in clinical trials and he orders it from a pharmacy in China. A beta blocker to offset the cardiovascular strain that some of these drugs put on his system. So those four, is that it? Anything else? Oh, no. Keep going. He also has a hair loss drug, so his dutastride, which he also takes. I do a lucky dip, which basically means I have dutastride in a raw powder form. And I'll just dip my figure in the bag and take it. Something called melanotan, which makes you tan faster, so you can get tan without spending so much time in the sun. Is that it? No, no, no. Hydose melatonin, which he takes as an antioxidant. A lot of people think I'm mean when I say I take 300 to 500 milligrams, it's phenomenal. Something called glutathione. That helps with a lot of dopamine toxicity. Something called NAD+. One of the best regenerative compounds out there. And human growth hormone. In terms of right now, that's all I'll take, but, you know, we could go through some more stuff. So heavily medicated. Does he have any concerns about, like, pumping of agilian chemicals into his body? So this came up in a past interview. He thinks that he's probably currently infertile because of the amount of testosterone he takes. Wow. Pretty well studied side effect, I believe, of testosterone replacement therapy. And is he upset about that? No, he's very, very matter of fact about it. One moment in our interview that got clipped up and went viral. Well, you have to remember this is 2002, so I'm 17 in the head, full head of hair. Okay. Somewhere in the sevens. Sevens? Not bad. He asked me, because I shaved my head, why I haven't started on hair loss drugs when I was younger. The potential side effects are something I'm not willing to let out for your day. And I said, one infrequent but well known side effect of these drugs are sexual side effects. And I wasn't really willing to prioritize my hair at the cost of diminished sex life. Uh-huh. And he called that coat, which is sort of a piece of internet jargon that means like a form of denial. Basically, what he's saying is that I'm using these side effects as an excuse not to ascend. He's saying basically that he's willing to sacrifice sexual enjoyment for the goal of looking good, becoming more beautiful. Yeah. I mean, his point is both that these side effects are very rare and men tell themselves this so they don't go on these medications. But he's also saying implicitly, even if you did have the side effects, it's more important to have hair than to have functioning genitals. So is the point of all of this effort, all of these stacks of drugs, all of the stuff he's taking, literally just to be beautiful for the sake of being beautiful. Not quite. If you believe that increasing your looks by any means necessary will get you status that you don't otherwise have, sex itself is kind of beside the point, isn't it? I was just saying it's almost equally as redeeming to me to know that I could do it. So the idea is that if you're pushing all of your chips into the looks category, essentially, that is what's going to get you status. That is what is going to help you stand out from other men. You know, I'm a busy guy. I live streamed for 10 plus hours, and I'd been 13 and a half hours yesterday. Do I have time to waste having sex, which is going to gain me nothing? It just doesn't seem very logical to me. But it's funny, it's like. Okay, we're going to take one more break, and when we come back, we're going to interrogate some of that. We're going to talk about what this guy and his whole movement says about our culture right now and where it's headed. We'll be right back. So there is obviously a complicated mess of ideas and impacts of all of this that we want to entangle. But first, I want to ask you something that I think will resonate with many women listening to this, which is everything that you've described. The obsessive focus on your appearance, the hacking, the sometimes painful interventions, this is not new for women. This is like Tuesday, you know? I mean, women have been in a sense forced to by the culture, by the expectations, looks max for generations. You know, like they don't just inject themselves with Botox, filler, everything else under the sun. They regularly from the age of 15 or waxing every part of their body. I'm not speaking for all women, but many of us. But what do you make of that, the kind of parallels here? Yeah, I mean, there is an irony to it, absolutely. I think men have not been socialized to find these interventions normal. So there is an extent to what you're watching these sort of like lonely kids online, like reinvent the female beauty standard in real time for men. Right. What about the fact that it's coming out so clearly with this group? I mean, not to out us, but I think we're both millennials here, and when we were in high school, it was not socially acceptable, I think it's fair to say, for many men, straight men, to openly even care about their appearance. There was a stigma associated with that. That's true. It's also true when we were in high school, there was this sort of term de jour for straight men who cared about their appearance, which was metrosexual, which will be ancient history to the looks-maxers, but you and I remember it well. Men have always had to come up with sort of new vocabularies to talk about caring about the way they look. And now with this looks-maxing community, it seems like, I don't know, there's not a lot of shame about it. I mean, they're owning it. Right. It becomes harder and harder to tell young men that the way they look doesn't matter when the culture has become so removed and image-based, I mean, so much of our life, particularly for single people on the internet, is spent on image-based platforms, whether they're explicitly about meeting a romantic partner or not, just evaluating and swiping on images. So I think there's a kernel of truth to what these kids are experiencing. At the same time, it's kind of a dark future because, or a dark present, because it takes away so many of the other qualities that, through grasping and searching, people learn to develop on their own. Right. I mean, it seems basically impossible to ignore the danger of a movement or a lifestyle that tells its followers to, you know, do all of these extreme interventions to make themselves acceptable. And yet, at the same time, as you say, our culture has been telling women for a really long time that they should take lots of interventions, careful always that they seem natural to improve their looks. So in some ways, we can sort of sit here and clock our tongues about how unhealthy it is. And at the same time, we have to be realistic that we live in an unbelievably superficial image-based culture. And just talk for a minute about the potential dangers of this. I mean, you know, clavicular, it should be noted, is an influencer. Part of his job is to say outrageous things, scandalizing things, to really draw attention. I mean, that's how he makes money. And so in one way you can see what he's doing is the result of a kind of manufactured effort by publicists, by a very online guy, to get clicks, to get likes. On the other, a lot of people are listening to him. And I have to wonder about the message they're receiving. Yeah. So I think one of the things that's happening with clavicular is that he's cleaning his act up as he gets more popular. But if you look back at the actual subculture itself of looksmax.org, it's very dark space. I mean, the young men there are talking in incredibly fatalistic terms about how their lives are ruined or over, you know, at the age of 15 or 18 or 22, if their jaw doesn't look a certain way or if their cheekbones don't look a certain way. No, I mean, for young boys who are looking at this stuff, absorbing it, learning these techniques, you can see how harmful it could be, to be internalizing these unrealistic images of beauty. Right. So on an intuitive level of course, this sort of monofocus on looks from really boys, you understand how it could be harmful. But I also know it to be true because I've heard from families who've been really affected negatively in even in devastating ways when their kids get to into this culture. Broadly, Joe, what should we make of the fact that clavicular, someone who espouses these views of the world, of people's value in the world has become so popular and so influential right now? Well, I think it's as a couple of things. One is that even if it's not saying it explicitly, the culture is always telling people that they're worth is correlated with their looks. I don't think it's just clavicular who's making that claim. I think everything from sobriety culture to the way it's delivered is reinforcing a message that the way you look is extremely important. I also think as a society we're headed in a way where more extreme interventions in ones appearance are becoming more and more normal. I mean, if you look at the popularity of these GLP drugs, even among people who don't necessarily need to take them, and for many people, these are lifesavers. But if you look at that, if you look at the popularity of Botox and other treatments, and are getting more cosmetic surgery than ever, I think that our culture is becoming more looks focused all the time. At the same time, this is a young man who became very, very famous very quickly because of the dynamics of the attention economy and the streaming platform economy. And while he has become so popular because I believe society was prepared for a figure like this, I also think that the platforms that essentially contribute to the fame of these people the way they work plays a strong role too. You know, this whole time I've been thinking that by buying into his worldview, by reducing everything to numbers, there is this other loss, which is that you miss out on everything that is messy and complicated and sometimes not perfectly polished or manicured about beauty. And for that matter, about physical attraction, about closeness with someone, love, relationships, the humanity in that is often about the imperfections in it, not the exact distance between the pupils of your partner. So as a millennial, I think you're right, I also think in some ways these kids are responding quite naturally to an environment that is constantly quantifying things, constantly asking them to engage in pull down menus and widgets and yes or no questions and binaries, literally quantifying people. That is the age that we live in. So while my initial reaction may be to judge them and find them a little ridiculous, I've had to push past that and think maybe there's a rationality to these young people and maybe in a way they're reflecting more the culture that we live in and the culture that we're entering. Well Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Today's episode was produced by Luke Vanderplug with help from Tina Antillini and Alex Barron. It was edited by Wendy Doerr. Our production manager is for any car talk, contains music by Marion Luzano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Sophia Landman. Special thanks to Brendan Klingkenberg and Nina Feldman. That's it for the Daily. I'm Natalie Kitcheliff. See you tomorrow.