Influencer Plotted to Killy Baby Daddy with Her Own Dad: Investigators

you get what you get. So how a man comes is how he's most likely going to be for eternity. Gabby Gonzales was a social media mom with millions of followers. And he, Jack Avery, was a former boy band singer. But behind the public persona was a bitter custody battle. When the police say was about to take a dark turn into the dark web and strange the crosshairs of the FBI. "Come to me and turn around for a chance to run you back, okay?" "Yes sir." Appreciate it. Gabby Gonzales once said, "Men don't change." But prosecutors say she wanted to change Jack from alive to dead. This is Scandal, presented by Lawncrime. I'm Sierra Gillespie. Hey you guys. Welcome to my course on how to tell if he's a good man. Most likely he is not. That was influencer Gabby Gonzales giving relationship advice days before her arrest. But according to prosecutors, the man she really had issues with, the father of her child, former boy band singer Jack Avery. And she didn't just think he was a bad man. She allegedly wanted him dead. And she didn't try to do it herself. She allegedly hired someone on the dark web using cryptocurrency with her father's money. Her then boyfriend went looking for a hitman under an alias and the hitman they found. It was an undercover agent. But this is the part that just leaves me jaw dropped. Prosecutors say Gabby wanted proof the job was done. Proof like his pinky finger. But before we dive deep into the dark web and the undercover sting, let's establish who we're talking about here. Gabby Gonzales, she's 24 years old as social media influencer with nearly a million followers across TikTok and Instagram. She's built her brand on motherhood, lifestyle, and being relatable. She talked openly about things like free bleeding, about being a single teen mom, about the struggles of womanhood. So on the surface, she was just another influencer sharing her life. Free bleeding has helped me become more in tune with my body for one. Number two, period products are ridiculously expensive. Period products should be easily accessible for everyone who needs them. They're not obviously and the prices keep increasing. And then on top of it, there's chemicals being put inside pretty much every single period product. Even the organic ones, I have just come to the place where I choose not to participate in it. But behind the scenes, prosecutors say there was a much darker side. And it involved 26-year-old Jack Avery, former member of the boy band, Why Don't We? He and Gabby share a seven-year-old daughter and according to the DA's office, he was the target. Now Gabby's father, 59-year-old Francisco Gonzales, he's a civil attorney in the greater Miami area. And according to investigators, he was the money man behind this entire plot. So here's the timeline. Prosecutors have laid out. In April of 2019, Gabby and Jack have their daughter. But by 2020, they break up. And what follows is a heated, ugly custody battle that lasts for years. But according to the DA, somewhere in the middle of all of that, the fight for custody turned into a conspiracy to commit murder and they say, it all started with Gabby's dad. According to court documents, the custody battle between Gabby and Jack was nasty. And Francisco Gonzales, the father, the attorney, didn't just offer legal advice. He allegedly took things into his own hands. Investigators say Francisco hired a private investigator to tail Jack Avery in Hawaii. He was looking for dirt, anything, drinking, smoking, just anything that could be used against Jack in this custody fight. Text messages between Francisco and the private investigator showed Francisco directing surveillance activity, sending photos, identifying details, and then this. In a failing group chat in March 2021, Francisco allegedly wrote these words. Call Barka, never too early. According to investigators, that was a reference to Dustin Barka, a professional MMA fighter based in Hawaii. The Gonzales family allegedly tried to recruit Barka to threaten Jack Avery. Now to be clear, Dustin Barka has not been charged in this case, but the attempt to recruit him, that's part of the escalation. Because according to the DA, the plan allegedly shifted from intimidation to something far more sinister. A witness told investigators that Gabby repeatedly said she wanted Jack dead, that she talked about hiring a hitman. That the plan was discussed in detail, and that witnesses also said Francisco was the source of the money. Another witness, Gabby's then-husband told investigators something even more damaging. He said Francisco told him, "It would be cheaper if Avery were dead." That witness described the Gonzales family as obsessed with obtaining full custody and obsessed with excluding Jack from their daughter's life completely. So how do you go from wishing someone dead to actually trying to make it happen? Well, according to prosecutors, you go to the dark web. In April 2021, police say Francisco Gonzales wired $10,000 to someone named Kai Cordray. Gabby's then-boyfriend. But here's the thing. It wasn't a gift. According to the DA, the money was disguised as a payment for web development services. Cordray ran a business site called Whisperer, so the invoice looked legitimate, but investigators say no actual web development work was ever performed. Then Cordray took that $10,000 and moved it into a Gemini cryptocurrency account, and he started searching on the dark web under the alias, and I'm not making this up Lizard King 69. He found a murder for hire site after that. He began communicating with someone he believed was a hitman. This is all according to police, by the way, and on May 22, 2021, Cordray allegedly identified the target, Jack Avery. He provided Jack's address in Los Angeles. He said the killing should be done by whatever method is easiest. But then, the site administrator asked for even more money, an additional $4,000 for an expert hitman, someone who could get the job done clean. So in June 2021, Francisco sent another payment. Another $4,000 under the same guys, the web development. And at this point, $14,000 has been paid. The plan was in motion, except there was one problem. The hitman they were talking to? Well, it turns out he wasn't a hitman at all. In September 2021, the fed intervened. That person, Kai Cordray, had been communicating with on the dark web. The one he thought was a killer for hire, an undercover law enforcement agent. Here's where the case goes from crazy to completely unhinged. According to the affidavit, Cordray started seeing like a canary. He told the undercover agent everything, the target, the payment, the plan, he identified Jack Avery. And then, he told the agent that Gabby wanted it done, and that Francisco could pay for it. But it gets even more specific than that prosecutor's alleged. The Gabby wanted proof that the job was completed. And not just any proof either. She wanted Jack's pinky finger severed as confirmation. That sounds like it came straight out of a mob movie. And then, Francisco got directly involved with this undercover agent. The FBI says they reviewed a communication between the undercover agent and someone listed as Fran G. At a phone number, tied to Fran Cisco. In that communication, Fran G sent the code word bo-run, followed by a missed audio call. Now, the undercover agent responded that he would call later that night. Fran G indicated he was available after 7 p.m. Eastern time. Then, the FBI reviewed a recorded call between Francisco Gonzalez and the undercover agent. In that call, Fran Cisco used coded references, including bo-run. He referenced the prior Bitcoin payment and he discussed verifying the target and arranging payment for completion. So now, the FBI has dark web messages, cryptocurrency transactions, undercover recordings, and Francisco, on a taped call using the code word, except they didn't arrest anyone. Not for another five years. Why? According to reports, the vets ultimately didn't think they had enough to charge Gabby and her father, federally. So they handed the case over to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department who brought it to the DA's office. And that took some time. Subpoenas, search warrants, electronic evidence, they had a case to build. But here's the thing, Jack Avery knew. In September 2025, nearly a year before the arrests, he told a podcaster that FBI agents showed up at his door and warned him that someone was trying to have him killed. He said he stayed home for months. He didn't even leave the house because he knew someone wanted him dead. But he didn't publicly name Gabby at the time. And all the while, by the way, Gabby keeps posting. She kept building her brand, kept talking about being a good mom. "We're co-parents. I take care of the doctor's appointments, the dentist appointments, and the therapy appointments." She talked about co-parenting while prosecutors were building a case that she allegedly tried to have her co-parent "kills." But the wait was finally over then. In May of 2026, the hammer finally dropped. On May 15, 2026, Gabby Gonzalez is arrested in Humboldt County, California, as she's boarding a flight. She's transferred to Los Angeles County, where she's booked on felony charges of conspiracy to commit murder, attempted murder, and solicitation of murder. Three days later, on May 18, the hammer drops on Francisco. Body camera footage from Seminal County, Florida shows deputies waiting outside his home. He's gonna walk out here Dolly right here No, he's gonna walk out to you I'll walk to you We'll just get him to me if we're out but he can't find the back again Dan's pulling up we're just gonna put you in the back seat of one of our cars for a minute and these guys Park there maybe I'm just gonna see if there are a spot there to park because it's gonna be a minute Okay, I was gonna see hang on a second Billy. Yeah, come back here Who's in here That's the moment a well-known Florida attorney trades his tailored suits for a yellow gel jumpsuit But here's where it gets even more interesting the deputies have a search warrant for his home so they asked for his phone Okay Yeah Hey, sir, yeah, they're talking to your son right now. I know your cell phones inside your residence They're they're gonna ask you for your consent to go in there and grab the cell phone if not We're gonna get a search warrant for the apartment and go in there and get it that way, which would cause your son and his daughter and all them to be outside for God knows how long So it's up to you if you if we have your consent just to go in there solely for the purpose of getting your cell phone We can do that. If not, we're gonna search warrant to go in there We have your consent for your son to give us your cell phone. What does your cell phone look like? It's a it's a black it's got a black cover and it's a it's an iPhone. Okay, what's the screen saver look like? I think it's a lot screen. Yeah, I think it's just like regular like a clock or something Permission to get the phone right? Yes, sir. I'm gonna have your son. I don't think you'll believe me if I walk over and say that I'm gonna have him walk over here as long as we're doing that. We'll get him to go grab it and it will be out of here faster than we would be Francisco coordinates and chooses to wait extra-dition meaning he's going to California California California gets here in time. But we're dealing with a different judges and stuff. You should have a no-bond until they get here But I've seen things happen Once I give them a phone call it's only like nine more and out there. Yeah, we'll probably start booking flights to come here and try to get My heart was like the hell happened on May 19th, 2026 Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hawkman stood before the cameras and announced the charges Three defendants Gabby, Francisco, and Kai were all charged with the same three felonies attempted murder Conspiracy to commit murder and solicitation of murder. Hawkman stated most fathers raised their children to respect the law But here we have a dad who allegedly helped his daughter and her boyfriend break the law in the most sinister way Imagineable if convicted each of them is looking at 25 years to life in state prison But not all of them are sitting in jail Gabby Gonzalez. She posted bail two million dollars. She's out But there are conditions. She has to wear a GPS monitor and she was clear to travel back to Hawaii where she lives But she could not have any contact with Jack Avery or their daughter She has to stay 100 yards away from them and she's banned from posting about the case on social media Francisco Gonzalez. Well, he was extradited from Florida to California A Los Angeles judge initially denied him bail and his defense team tried to fight it arguing that jailhouse calls and social media posts didn't prove he was a danger But the court ultimately allowed him to stand on a two million dollar bond under strict house arrest conditions Kai Cordray while he was in custody on two million dollars bail But he's attorney successfully asked for that to be reduced to 100,000 arguing that he's a plumber's apprentice living paycheck to paycheck and couldn't afford that original amount The judge granted the reduction and Cordray was released after posting bond The day after the arrests were announced. Jack did something that should tell you exactly how scared he is He filed an emergency restraining order against Gabby and he asked the court for sole legal and physical custody of their daughter and a judge granted it In the filing Jack did not hold back. He alleged that Gabby's arrest, so long with what he described as ongoing harassment and safety concerns prompted the emergency request. He wrote and I quote "The acts of abuse described in the attached declaration have taken place in front of the minor childs Gabriela attempted to kill me by hiring a hitman Gabriela is not stable and not able to act in the best interest of our daughter But here's the part that just breaks my heart according to Jack's filing after Gabby was arrested Their daughter was temporarily placed with a foster family in Northern California Jack had to fly up there and pick her up himself and when he arrived He was told that his daughter had made comments blaming him for her mother's arrest Jack broke his silence publicly with an Instagram statement and he wrote a few days ago Three individuals were arrested in connection with an alleged plot to kill me one of those individuals is the mother of my daughter For years, my family and I have endured intense public scrutiny, false accusations and deeply painful attacks on our character and reputation Throughout that time, I chose to remain silent out of respect for the legal process and most importantly my daughter He said his focus is now on being the best father He can be and that he's thankful to have sole custody of his daughter who's safe, healthy and deeply loved But the legal fight is far from over by July of 2026 all three defendants were supposed to appear in a Los Angeles County courtroom for their formal Arraignment that's the moment when they would finally enter a plea guilty or not guilty But instead of that Arraignment we got a delay and July 23, 2026 Gabby Gonzalez walked into the Los Angeles County Superior courtroom Gabby's attorney stood up and asked for more time and Francisco's attorney along with Kai's attorney joined in on that request Your Honor Ms. Gonzalez Defend one would like to wait time for Arraignment and plea put the case over to September 14th for Arraignment and plea Thank you and that's as is to each of the defendants We're joining in the request your honor on behalf of Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you Yes, you know, I'll join the same press for Mr. Portray, but the prosecutor and he was not happy where But the defense attorneys pushed back Mr. Baud is at this case for very long time I've had this case for six weeks. There's a ton of discovered for me to go through and while he's arguing jurisdiction right now I'm not even prepared to argue jurisdiction at this point because there's so much discovery in this case So my job is to review the discovery Find out what is proper and what is not proper not just take Mr. Potts word that it's proper So based on that your honor. We do need additional time. This is a very old case in terms of when the allegations occurred. More over your honor is that I need to be able to see all the documents. I just received a large hard drive of discovery maybe about three weeks ago on this case. So I do need to review everything before I can enter it play in this case, Your Honor. The judge sided with the defense. So over the people's objection, the court will allow the, the, the arraignment to be continued to September 14th. That's given the age of the case, the amount of discovery involved. So that is set for arraignment taken the waivers, September 14th, 2026. Bond, $2 million bond to stand for Ms. Gabrielle Gonzalez, $2 million bond to stand for Mr. Piecordry. So now, September 14th, 2026, that's the new date. That's one will likely hear their formal pleas. Now, before we talk about where this case stands today, I want to pause and talk about something. Gabby Gonzalez spent years building a brand around being a mom, a relatable mom, a single teen mom who overcame the struggles. She talked about free bleeding, about womanhood, about being in tune with her body, about raising a daughter, on her own, and about how being alone was the best thing that ever happened to her. And here's the kicker, days before her arrest, she posted a video about men. She said they don't change, they are who they are. She told her followers that most men are not good men. Men come as they are, they do not change, you get what you get. I know, that's really scary, because women are always growing, adapting, changing, getting these new parts of themselves, bringing back old parts of themselves, really like just becoming something brand new, like legitimately every day while also maintaining their self. And then you have men, they don't change, girl, they don't, they won't for you and they won't for themselves and they won't for their children so like, it's a little ironic because according to prosecutors, she allegedly wanted to end Jack permanently. All three of these defendants are now scheduled to return to court for their formal arrangement and please on September 14th, 2026. But with this massive amount of discovery in this case, it's going to take months, if not years, for this case to reach a jury. And that's where we are right now in the case of Gabby Gonzalez. But where is the case going to go from here? That's a question we're going to ask to our expert guest today. It's friend of the show and former federal prosecutor, Nima Romani, Nima, so great to see you. Thank you for coming on Skandal today. Of course, Sierra. I'm so excited to be back on with you. Yeah, it's great whenever I get to talk to you because I get to pick your brain, you're an expert in all of this. And let's start with the question I literally wrote at the top of my notes, murder for hire. Does it ever work out? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I know. This will be up there with some of the world's dumbest criminals. It rarely works out, but you know, unfortunately when you're talking about these nasty custody feuds, it's not too uncommon. And people will do anything for their kids, including, apparently, trying to get someone killed. Oh, my God. And, okay, so that's really the basis of the motive here, right? The alleged, really heated custody battle. And I know that motive isn't required to bring a charge or yield a conviction or anything like that. But do you think it's a pretty strong motive, something that prosecutors would highlight if this goes in front of a jury? Absolutely, Sarah. And your right motive is not an element of the crime. And here in California, there's a jury instruction that says that. But that doesn't mean jurors aren't ordinary people, and they're not going to ask the obvious question, why would someone want someone killed? So if you're a good prosecutor, you want to tell a story. And that's an important part of the story, and it has to be explained to the jurors from the jump in opening statements. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if I was a juror, I would want to make sense of why this would happen. And if you add that motive, okay, it kind of makes sense. Maybe I'm leaning a little closer into the prosecution's theory here, but I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. Let's kind of wind back the clock, because the timeline here is really interesting to me. The alleged hitman situation started, I guess, in September of 2021. But charges aren't brought until May of 2026. So kind of a large time gap there. Can you explain that at all? Yeah, so sometimes in these types of cases, it just takes a while for prosecutors to get the evidence and review the evidence, you know, oftentimes when fortunately the murder isn't carried out, and it's thwarted either there's an undercover or there's someone who flips and cooperate. So if you're a prosecutor, you're always trying to get information. And one of the good ways to get information is from other criminals. So for instance, I did primarily drug and human trafficking, and if I'm trying to work my way through any criminal organization like a drug cartel, the people that you pop and arrest, you flip. So I don't know how this came to the attention of law enforcement. It may have been someone that was a rat or a snitch, or frankly, it may have been them just needing more time to build the case, because again, the murder wasn't actually carried out. Which is great, by the way, I mean, so often you and I are talking about cases that are absolutely dreadful, the worst of the worst, where it could be children killed, or whatever it is. I mean, thankfully in this case, nobody died, which is great. But the allegations here are, I mean, I'd be terrified if I was this alleged victim in the case. And I guess let's go back to the investigation of it all, because you said, I mean, it could take time. You want to flip people, so to speak, talk to the criminals who are involved in all of this. And I have to wonder about the dark web of it all, because I guess that's where all of this started. Where would you go to find a hitman? I guess you go to the dark web, but does that make things harder to track? I mean, the FBI, they're the best of the best, right? They're going to be on this. But does it make it difficult with the dark web? No, no question. I think one of the reasons that took a while to get the evidence in the case is that the solicitation did happen on the dark web. And then obviously you want to follow the money and the electronic paper trail, right? So law enforcement, they're going to issue subpoenas, they're going to execute search warrant. So it does take some time to get all that information. Of course, the payment is the best evidence in the case where the payments, I should say, the 10 and the $4,000. So it may have taken the FBI just a minute, maybe more than a minute, to get all the information they need. OK, let's talk about that evidence, because we have this Bitcoin or cryptocurrency exchange of money twice, you pointed out first, it was $10,000 and then whoever came back asking for more, and it was $4,000 allegedly given by Gabby Gonzalez's father. And her then boyfriend was the one who allegedly orchestrated all of this. So if we have, let's say, messages on the dark web saying, hey, looking for a hitman soliciting whatever you write, those messages, plus the cryptocurrency exchange of money, I mean, is that really hard evidence to combat for their defense? It is very hard evidence and someone's going to go down. I expect a lot of finger pointing between these three and listen, even if it's father, daughter, most of the time, people will throw them under the bus to save themselves. But you're right. I mean, the solicitation is there. The conspiracy to commit murder. There, you have this unlawful agreement right between two or more people, you got your over that. And you may even be able to get to attempted murder because paying a hitman, that's only a substantial step, you don't necessarily just have to pull the trigger or the mess. I think the prosecution has them dead to rights on all three. Okay. You talked about something I have to ask about. It's actually written down in my notes. We talked about people flipping, maybe if they're alleged criminal, they're involved in it, whatever. But the co-conspirators, this is what's interesting to me. There are three defendants here. And I have to wonder, like, you're a prosecutor. You get this case and you have the three people. How do you go about flipping one against the other? Because as you pointed out, I mean, father against daughter, mother against son, whatever it might be. I mean, people do that, right? Oh, no question, right? What I do is I try to find the person who is most culpable, right, when you're talking about a hit. And there's a kind of a big case out of Florida, the murder of Dan Marquell. You hear this family that's sort of orchestrating this hit and they ultimately, you have the hit men and you're sort of working your way through and then you got to determine, hey, who is the person who's most responsible? It's not always the person, by the way, who benefits the most. It's not necessarily Gabby, it could be. But it could be her dad because that other case too, it was really the mom who was the one that was really kind of calling the shots there. And if so, what you want to do is you want to flip your less culpable people, they're still going to do time, no doubt about it and make sure that they testify against the person you want to put away for life or close to it. So it sounds like you want to pinpoint who is the puppet master here and then who were the strings being pulled on. And in this case, just from what we know, who do you think is the most culpable versus the least? Who would flip in this case? If I had to guess, I would say dad Francisco is the most culpable. Just on my limited reading of the case, I mean, he's the one who's actually making the payments, he's the one, I mean, look, I'm not saying there's ever an excuse, but look, you're the father, you should have wisdom and experience to not do this, right? I mean, it's a custody dispute. You know, whether it's 50, 50 or 80, 20 or whatever it is, it's not a reason to kill the father of your child. So just to guess, but based on the limited information that's been made public so far, I would guess that the father is the most culpable. - And as you were going through talking about that, I just kept thinking it's really easy not to hire a hitman. Very easy. We do it every, I do it every day. You do it every day. So easily this is one of those alleged crimes where it could be completely preventable here. And I'm very grateful that the person who was intended to be the victim survived here, but it could have gone so much worse. And okay, so we talked about the evidence that the prosecution has, but recently there was a court appearance during which the defense said, hey, we need more time here. There are thousands of pages of discovery. We have so much to go through, et cetera. What do you think if any sort of evidence does the defense have that could help them? - Yeah, so obviously when you're talking about the electronic evidence, it does take a while to go through the defendant as a right to a speedy trial. Oftentimes, in cases like this, they waive that right. For me, if I were defending this case, and I don't do any criminal defense, but really the only way to do it is it would be a mitigation case where you would say, listen, here's someone I'm representing down the periphery, they were there, but they're not the most culpable. I'm gonna cooperate, and I'm gonna get less time. And usually the people that are the first to cooperate, they get the benefit. But expect to see a lot of finger pointing, a lot of people saying, listen, it really wasn't me, but it was this other person. I don't think that they can argue that this was just the blown-off steam or mounting off, or just, it was an emotional reaction when the $10,000 and the $4,000 were sent. I mean, that is very, very real. And it's not just bragging or boasting that you want your ex dead. So I think they're very, very serious evidentiary problems in this case from a defense perspective. - Yeah, I mean, we've all said kind of stupid things where we're like, oh, I wish you were dead, or I hate this person. I don't want them to live whatever. Just things that people casually say, saying it is much different than the exchange of money, which we saw in this case, a substantial amount, if it's $14,000. So I think the evidence is a lot here. And we talked about the digital side of things. And really, one of the reasons why we're covering this case, I mean, the facts of it are very interesting and intriguing. But also, Gabby Gonzalez herself was a name, the alleged victim was also a name being part of a boy band, but she kind of made her name for herself on TikTok and social media. And I'm wondering if that could be any evidence going through any of her old TikToks to see was she talking about her ex? What did she say? Is that something investigators would look at? - Sarah, no question. And you'd be surprised. People say stupid things on social media. I can tell you that people say stupid things outside of social media. There's a case that's being prosecuted right now that is based almost entirely on the defendants' own confessions and I'm talking key FD for the murder of Tupac Shakur. He wrote a book saying that he's the one in the order to hit. He did a BET documentary. He even told the police. And it's the case that's 30 years old. It's being prosecuted because of stupid things that the defendant said. - Yeah, I mean, they warned us in the Miranda rights, right? I mean, anything you say canon will be used against you. I mean, people think about it in terms of being arrested, but if you're going online and talking about something, writing a book or a documentary, whatever it may be, that could come back to haunt you. So I would have to come through her TikTok and see if there was anything that was incriminating in all of this. And I also have to ask because the allegations here are pretty severe and the bond is pretty high, but they've all been released on bond in all. Like I just was interested. Do you think it's because there wasn't actually a murder that was carried out that they were allowed to be released on bond? - I'm shaking my head 'cause I'm sitting here in LA right now and there's veil reform and people like this should not be out on bond here. I disagree with the decision. People should not be on bond if they're a risk of flight or a danger to the community. If you order a hit, you are a danger to the community. So I don't defense attorneys hate it because their clients aren't custody pending trial and it's harder to prepare a defense when they're in prison. I get the argument on the other side, but I could tell you, maybe it's the former prosecutor in me, I don't like bond in these types of cases. - I was kind of shocked that they were out free to go for the time being. I was very, very surprised based on the allegations and while $2 million and $1 million is a pretty hefty bond, still they were able to pay and be released and that was kind of shocking to me and all of this. And I guess that kind of relates to the next question. So they appeared in court back in July. They're due back in September. I believe it's the 14th at which time they need to enter a plea. So what would you imagine would happen at this time? I mean, is it too early to be talking about plea agreements? I mean, we're still kind of early in the case they haven't even entered a plea at all? - Yeah, so expect them to enter not guilty plea. That's certainty. It's very rare for anyone to enter a guilty plea at the agreement. They're gonna go through the discovery. And again, I think there will be deals in this case because there are gonna be people that are gonna be less culpable. And if you can get out from 25 to life, if you're Gabby or her boyfriend, you gotta really think about doing that. So expect there to be pleased. I think it was a strong case and a very few percentage of trials cases actually go all the way to trial. I would be surprised if this was one of them. - And I mean, you gotta think about it, right? I believe she's 24 years old right now. So 25 years, it's not the rest of her life. She could get out in her 50s and live the rest of her life and go on and do whatever. I mean, so that could be something to consider and all of this too. And I keep going back to that last hearing where they appeared in July. Just because, I mean, not that much happened. They were like, okay, we didn't enter a plea. But people were talking about it. Simply because Gabby was seen smirking or kind of laughing during the proceedings. And I watched it multiple times I went back. She wasn't laughing the entire time. She was paying attention. She was being relatively respectful. But to laugh, when you're accused of something like this, I mean, what do you make of that? - That's a terrible look. And obviously look, you don't jury yet, right? But her lawyer, I bet I have a talk with her. You're laughing and you're not taking something like this seriously. That's a surefire way to get convicted and then slammed at sentencing by the sentencing judge. - Oh yeah, I mean, as I was watching that, I was like, okay, this is great for us. Great thumbnail. Very interesting. And yet for her, if I was that defendant, I would be shaking my boots. Like, oh no, I can't believe I just smiled. That's not great. - Yeah, scandalous, yeah. I mean, Gabby could always put the scandal in scandalous, you know? - Yes, exactly. Which is why we're talking about her today on our show. And like we've talked about Nima, I mean, we're so early on in this case, the charges just came down in May. First appearance in September, excuse me, in July, then September they're gonna be coming back. We've got a lot ahead in this case, so I would love to have you back on. You're right there in LA, so you can give us a front-door seat to everything that's happening in this case. So thank you for giving us your insight. - Of course, Sierra, thanks for having me. - And that's where today's episode of scandal leaves us for now. If you like what you saw and you wanna see more, or connect with me on social media, you can find me on places like Instagram at Sierra Gillespie. Thanks for watching today's episode of scandal. As always, I'm your host, Sierra Gillespie. And we'll see you next time.