INFAMY: The Alligator Man of Elmendorf

Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, you know, from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod. This is Crime House. I want them all to be lies. We wish. I feel like now I'm just guessing based off of. Of what I want to be. Yeah. The truth versus the lie. I want number three to be the lie, that his right-hand man didn't go missing after turning him in. Wrong. Unfortunately. You're so wrong. You're so wrong. He did go missing. The lie is number one. It's like a half lie here because Joe did own a bunch of alligators and he did keep them in the backyard of his tavern. But Joe didn't actually train the alligators. He trained the alligators to attack on command. Okay. He did, however, host live feeding events for entertainment and they were really gory, like very, super gory and very popular too. Which I hate. But today we are going to tell you about Joe Ball's known victims, how he came to be the alligator man of Elmendorf, and why his crimes inspired the off-the-wall horror movie, Eaten Alive. Welcome to Crimes of Infamy, a CrimeHouse original powered by PAVE Studios. We're your hosts, Sabrina D'Anaroga and Corinne Vienne. I'll be the one walking you through the chilling narratives of every story. And I will be zooming in on the moment, showing you how the very real scenes in these stories played out. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different story. We're exploring a different story. We're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. And this season is all about the crimes behind the world's most iconic horror movies. Make sure to hit that subscribe button to join our community so you never miss an episode. Today we are talking about Joe Ball, a monstrous killer who inspired the 1976 pulp horror film Eaten Alive. So let's dig in. Pun intended. A warning. This episode contains descriptions of murder and dismemberment, so please listen with care. Before we tell you about Joe Ball's story and the cult classic that he inspired, we here on Crimes of, we like to start every episode off by acknowledging the victims in these stories. In this case, there are at least two women who lost their lives at the hands of Joe Ball: Minnie Goddard and Hazel Brown. Not to mention their families, friends, and an entire community who also experienced the loss and devastation firsthand. So let's dig in. We want to honor them because as we know, that can get lost when we tell these stories. And there is a lot to unpack here regarding Joe Ball, but unfortunately, a lot of his story and the record of his victims has been lost to time, but as you'll hear in this episode, his crimes are very memorable, enough so that he inspired director Toby Hooper, who we actually spoke about in episode one because he's also the director of Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which is also based on a real killer, Ed Gein. And clearly, Hooper likes really gory, disturbing killers and stories. Yeah, wish we could talk to Hooper about what's going on. But in this case, Joe Ball's crimes inspired Hooper's movie, Eaten Alive, which was released in 1976. Have you seen it? No, I haven't. And I don't think you should. You texted me that because we were both going to watch and then you were like, "Hmm, maybe." It was hard to watch. Like gory-wise? Yeah. That and we'll get more into the movie itself in a little bit, but it's filmed like the entire time has this like red tint, like the sky is almost red and it feels like a fever dream. Ooh. That it makes you feel icky. Yeah. Which I think these crimes all should make you feel icky in the fact that it's inspired by really horrific crimes. And having seen some of Hooper's other work, I think I haven't ever not felt icky walking away from a viewing of one of his movies. That's true. So if you want to feel icky and you like feeling icky, we're not going to ick your yum. So yeah, if you want to, watch Eaten Alive. But if you ask us, Eaten Alive is the very definition of a cult classic because it has all of the things in its recipe to make a cult classic, right? Yeah. It has really cheap sets. There's over-the-top violence, very, well, I shouldn't judge acting choices, but questionable acting choices. I myself can't act, but- No, we tried. We failed. It's a thing. So if you've seen it, let us know what you think. Mm-hmm. Of this film. I'm really curious what people will think, especially after listening to this episode. Yes. Agreed. But in case you're not familiar with Eaten Alive, we're going to give you some background. Basically, a man named Judd runs a motel in a bayou, and Judd has violent, sadistic urges. And lucky for him, he's got a pet crocodile that eats the bodies of his victims. Great. Lovely. How nice. Like Judd, his real-life counterpart, Joe Ball, was the victim. He's this remorseless killer. And although in the movie there were crocodiles, Joe preferred alligators. And although Joe preferred alligators to crocodiles, there were a lot of rumors that he liked to feed his pets the same kinds of meals. It's a muggy Saturday evening in 1930s Texas, and a drunken crowd gathers outside a low country tavern called the Sociable Inn. Yeah. The tavern is called the Sociable Inn. It's like the rest of the tiny town of Elmendorf is unremarkable. Blink as you pass along the highway, and you'd miss it. The tavern's plain white siding is streaked with dirt, and the word "BEER" is written in all caps across the front. But the customers tonight didn't come for what's inside. They came for the show out back. They circle around a concrete swimming pool behind the bar, surrounded by a 10-foot wire fence. But despite the summer heat, they are not there for a joke. They are here for a dip. They are here for a show. Because the pool is full of alligators. And it is feeding time. A hush falls over the crowd as the tavern's owner, Joe Ball, steps forward. He's holding a large sack in his hand. Joe reaches inside and pulls out an angry-looking possum. Joe holds it up for everyone to see, and then hurls it into the pool. The crowd roars as the alligators consume their meal. And Joe cries out to the animals, shouting, "There's more to come, my pets!" Then he reaches back into the sack and pulls out a puppy. No! That narrative was really, really hard to stomach. It's so brutal. Because Joe really did. Yeah. These are not embellishments. Yeah. It's true. People gather around and feed stray cats and dogs and whatever you find. It breaks my heart. It's terrible. Yeah. But Joe's feeding frenzies, they were the talk of the town. And you would think, oh my gosh, people would be horrified by it. Like we are. But no. But no. People went. Well, I'm sure some people were. But a lot of people just went for the show, for the entertainment. It was very Coliseum-esque. Yeah. And rumor has it that he fed his beloved alligators more than just these stray pets, that in secret, he also fed them human hearts. But before Joe Ball became known as the alligator man, he was just a regular guy from Texas. Sure. Sort of. Regular guy. Regular guy. Quote, air quotes. Also, if you want to know our opinion of Joe Ball in the story, just check out my shirt. Later alligator. Later alligator. See you later, Joe alligator. By 1896, the year Joe was born, his family was kind of like royalty around Elmendorf. Elmendorf is just outside of San Antonio, Texas. His family's reputation wasn't necessarily a good thing. Joe came from a long line of really not so great people. So his great grandfather, John Hart Crenshaw, made his living by kidnapping and selling free black citizens to slave states in the South. We hate you for that. After the Civil War, his family continued that legacy when Joe's father, Frank, made a fortune processing cotton. So really they're just like- We can tell what types of people they are. Yes. Yeah. So Frank meets a woman, Elizabeth, who would become Joe's mother, and together they have children joe is the second born over the years the ball family they become a fixture in elmendorf and joe's brothers they kind of i don't know if they were doing good things in the community or if they were just like trying to pivot sort of career paths but one of them became a school board trustee and another became mayor they're just taking over the town that's true i mean there's eight kids this family is massive yeah yeah joe luckily was not politically inclined but he was talented with guns so in 1917 when joe was just 21 years old he joined the army and he was shipped off to europe to fight in world war one and we don't really know much about what he experienced overseas at this time but we do know that he received an honorable discharge in 1919 and when he returned back to his home of elmendorf he decided to follow in his father's footsteps and try his hand at becoming a businessman although as you'll see and we're about to discuss his business wasn't what we'd really call above board no definitely not joe comes home in 1919 and if you can think about 1919 and what was happening at that time you can recall it if you remember when you were alive in 1919 uh prohibition yes was happening yeah and this came into effect right after joe came back and all of a sudden alcohol was illegal and joe was watching everyone start drinking in secret and he was like oh business opportunity i have a great idea he figured if people cannot get their alcohol from the store they could just go to him and so he would go around town selling whiskey out of a barrel in his car which means he like made this whiskey himself presumably i guess i'm curious i'm thinking about like toilet toilet whiskey toilet whiskey yeah prison prison alcohol it feels that way and also i'm like were the police like was this just not patrolled in this area because i'm like you know he's got a barrel in the back of his car i just picture everyone in like the town filling up i mean this was common everywhere during prohibition i know people found a way to drink he was just out in the open in the back of his car secret i guess it was a secret so he did this and he must have done pretty well because eventually he brought on an assistant he hired a man in the mid-1920s um this was a young black man named clifton wheeler and joe was white and wheeler was helping him with odd jobs and manual labor but remember this was the mid-1920s by all accounts joe was a horrible boss he also had a lot of ties to the way that the town that he lived in operated and his family how they treated right yeah joe was very cruel he was very abusive he threatened clifton at gunpoint more than once terrible and this was right around the time of the great depression so clifton probably needed a job and also he was a black man living in a segregated society it was teeming with racial violence at the time and presumably it would have really endangered his own life if this man ever tried to stand up to joe so this was definitely a problem in elmendorf and it was also a problem throughout the country especially in the state of texas it was very prevalent where black people in texas weren't even allowed to vote in statewide democratic primaries until 1884 and between 1888 and 1942 there were at least 468 lynchings in texas jeez so clifton really didn't have a choice but to put up with joe's horrifying antics and he kept working for joe even when prohibition ended in 1933 and now that alcohol was legal again 37 year old joe had to decide what's next for him right because he can't sell his barrel whiskey at the back of his car anymore right so he had kind of built the reputation and connections over the years being in the business of alcohol so he decided okay well now alcohol is my career and he opened up a tavern on the edge of town called the sociable inn and just like joe it was pretty rough around the edges yes i love the description of just a sign that says beer beer you know what you're getting when you go to the sociable inn right behind you beer if you're watching on video sabrina has the beer sign right behind her so in the main room there was a bar there was a piano and then there was a side room with some tables and chairs for people to like sit and chat and play cards yeah so this was really the perfect space for him because he also got to do other things that he enjoyed which unfortunately were hosting cockfights and there were two bedrooms in the back as well and joe would sleep in one of them and then the other one was for guests or really it was mostly occupied by like particular employees at the time okay and there were a lot of people for him to hire throughout the years because this town was a town that was very popular and it was a town that was very popular and it was a town that was that a lot of people passed through when looking for work so it was kind of like a little nomad station the train went through this town people would pop off for a little bit have some work and then maybe like move on sure until they maybe get to california to los angeles and become a star start a podcast exactly so many of the people that joe hired were these young unmarried women wonder why joe hired these people right you would think that a lot of different people came in on the train yep but in joe's mind only the young hotties and he hired them as cocktail waitresses and they were known as dance hall girls at the time so this is basically women that you could pay to just like dance in the bar with okay yep which i think we can understand where that's going yeah yes it brought in a lot of customers yeah i'm sure he had cockfights he had dance hall girls he had booze but a lot of the waitresses did not stay for very long and it wasn't because they quit or because they moved on to other jobs it was because joe's female employees often just disappeared with no explanation can you see where this is going right so we definitely can see where this is going but at the time other people didn't i guess they weren't really putting much mind to it they just well i guess if a lot of people are coming and going through this town i guess i understand why i wouldn't raise too many flags right and unfortunately i imagine the way that these women were treated was not great so i imagine that the townspeople are going to be like oh my god i'm going probably didn't care for or put much interest in these women either yeah and also his family has a reputation of being assholes and also super connected so you would like i think if i were in that situation i'd just be like oh yeah like who wants to work for joe everyone always quits and leaves right that would be an easy thought to have at the time joe did not stress about all these people disappearing on him if anything he seemed to believe that all of the turnover would just keep things fresh for his male customers another woman to come in and dance with smell small at some point though he did want to find something a little bit more exciting to drum up business and that something he wanted to be risky he wanted to be dangerous it's a hot afternoon on the marshy outskirts of elmendorf and joe stands at the edge of the water in one hand he holds a long rod with a looped cable attached to the end and just in case things go wrong he also has his pistol and his other hand he slowly scans the wetland keeping a close eye on the muddy banks but as time ticks away he doesn't spot what he's looking for he knows he won't find it just standing here so joe gets into the water and begins wading through he takes slow measured steps careful not to splash or make too much noise because one wrong step and he will turn into the hunted not the hunter once he's knee deep he's ventures further into the marsh he knows his prey is hiding somewhere in the grassy corridors the sun beats down making it harder for joe to see ahead his heart races with adrenaline the mixture of fear and excitement he moves his free hand closer to his gun just in case his target spots him first he rounds a bend nearly waist deep in the water now when finally he sees his mark it is complete completely oblivious to joe's presence joe slows his pace lifts the rod over his head he holds his breath as he inches closer and then he throws the loop and ensnares his target a massive american alligator the government gets a bad reputation but did you know that the roads under your feet the forecast on your phone the letter in your mailbox that's all government too i'm professor lindsey cormack and i'm hosting a new podcast called government that doesn't suck alongside professor greg jackson who you may know from the hit podcast history that doesn't suck each episode we dig into the surprising story of an american institution from the origins of the internet to the national park service to the gi bill and so much more you'll hear the stories behind them plus a conversation with an expert who knows it instantly and who knows what's going on in and out this is the real history of how we built the country under your feet and you'll never look at any of it the same way again listen to and follow government that doesn't suck available now wherever you get your podcasts so wild that he would just dare to even go into the water like this i think that's a big thing about joe ball he clearly is some type of adrenaline junkie yeah and he's doing a lot of this for himself and why is he so obsessed with dieting he's doing a lot of this for himself and he's doing a lot of this for himself like alligators and chickens that's his jam he's trying to abuse them i think yeah he's addicted to the violence and the danger what a motorcycle right to do that well And instead, he went alligator hunting. In 1933, Joe Ball opened his tavern back in his hometown of Elmendorff, Texas. And the 37-year-old was looking for a way to bring this excitement into his community. But he was like, anyone can open a bar, right? I need to make this a thrill. I need to make this a destination. And so he found a way to do that by capturing alligators and keeping these pet alligators on his property. Alligators shouldn't be pets. No. Hot take, maybe? Is it a hot take? I don't know. Or do most people not need to be told that? They shouldn't have to be told that, yeah. Well, Joe needed to be told that five times because he got five gators in total. And he built a concrete pool on the tavern property for these gators. Every Saturday night, he would take his customers out back and let them watch as he fed the gators other live animals. They were possums, raccoons, stray dogs, stray cats. That's so sad. Yeah. It was awful. It was awful. But people went crazy for it. People loved it. This was like a really positive. This was a really popular show in this town. And it earned Joe the nickname Alligator Man. It's so interesting because as we were prepping for this episode and just like reading about Joe, I kept thinking about Tiger King. Yes. And Joe Exotic, a.k.a. Tiger King, you know. And I was like, when did this become a popular thing? We've talked about On Two Girls, One Ghost. We've talked about the Tower of London where kings kept a zoo of exotic animals. And I'm like, at what point in history did this become a popular thing? And how did this become a fascinating, interesting thing to do? Yeah. I don't know. But I feel like in the world of Tiger King and like Carole Baskin and all of this, like we almost got a glimpse of the personalities that is Joe Ball, right? Right. Like very neurotic, not to be trusted. Adrenaline junkie. Yeah. And so I think Joe was a precursor to, you know, the people we know today like Tiger King. But these types of attractions didn't really become popular until the 1900s. The 1950s when people could drive cars and go visit them. Oh, that makes sense. But that means that in a twisted way, Joe Ball was kind of ahead of his time. Yeah. Well, and I will say, remember when we were driving through Texas a few years ago when we were on tour? Yes. There were so many safaris and wildlife parks and stuff, but they're like privately owned. So I feel like Texas, this was kind of a thing. Well, there was also billboards where it was like, pull over and check out this pool of alligators at the like local grocery store. Which we did do. It's like, do you want oranges and look at alligators? We're like, I guess. When in Texas. Yeah. But they weren't feeding those alligators living creatures that at least not showing us. So as you would expect, the gator feedings were an attraction that would gather a pretty rough crowd as well. And in the 1978 book, The Wild and Free Dukedom, Bear County by Elton Cude, events were described as, quote, a drunken orgy. I've been rewatching True Blood and I think it's like season two. Season two, where the whole town basically gets possessed into orgies. And now I'm picturing that. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. So that was happening and Joe loved it and he wasn't really doing anything to keep things civil. So when things were getting out of hand, other people had to step up. And one of those people was a woman named Minnie Goddard. And she was better known as Big Minnie. She started working at the tavern around 1934. And while not having the most flattering nickname. She was a very hard worker and she kept all of the drunk customers in line. Which, poor Minnie, what a tough job. I know. And to also have a boss like Joe, it would be bad. But, I don't know. Maybe Joe was really nice to her because he seemed pretty impressed by her. And eventually there was kind of like little romantic feelings between the two. A relationship evolved. But it really wasn't anything serious. It was more like a fling. Which I respect from Minnie. She's like, we can have sex, but that's it, Joe. But Minnie also did reside at the tavern. So Joe lived in one of the back rooms. There were two total, remember? And Minnie took up residence in the other one. So she lived in the tavern. And Joe liked her enough to take her side when she got into arguments with other employees. Including a waitress named Stella. And we don't exactly know why the two didn't get along. But we do know that one day Stella complained about Minnie to Joe. And then no one saw Stella ever again. And like other women before. People just. Just assumed that Stella simply moved on. That it was enough to just be in arguments at work. Like who wants that? And so she was just like, all right, peace. And left town. But it wasn't long before another young woman took her place. And this was a woman named Dolores Goodwin. Who went by the nickname Buddy. And she started working at the sociable inn. And Joe was instantly attracted to Buddy. And soon he was like, okay, Minnie, our fling is over. I'm going to start dating Buddy instead. So apparently this relationship. This relationship that Joe had with Buddy was more serious than what he had with Minnie. But it was also very volatile. Yeah. For starters, Buddy was 15 years younger than Joe. And in 1937, she was 26. Joe was 41 at the time. And on top of already the vast age gap here. Joe was Buddy's boss. That complicated things. And Joe would show his dark side. Surprise, Joe has a dark side. Oh, my God. A man who hosts cockfights and attacks alligators in the middle of the night. To capture and bring them to his pool. On a podcast called Crimes Of. Surprise, surprise. One night in 1937, Joe and Buddy, they get into a huge fight. And this results in Joe throwing a bottle at Buddy. And it hits her. In front of people? I don't know. But it hit her square in the face. And it created this massive scar. So people had to have known what happened. Oh, my gosh. The scar went from her eyes all the way down her neck. But the two of them. The two of them remained in a relationship. I'm sure Buddy is becoming increasingly more afraid of him as the days go on. And Joe's bar manager slash ex-fling, Minnie, started to really resent their relationship. And she, I think, was still living at the tavern at the time. And she told whoever would listen that she hated the two of them together. And it does. But based on what we know about Minnie, I do wonder if it was a jealousy thing. Or if it was like, hey, there's this young woman who I can see in front of me who's in this. Weird relationship with this guy who has a lot of power over her. And I don't like it at all. And it's abusive, too. Like, if Minnie's living there and Joe and Buddy are just fighting all the time and it's violent. Yeah. I would hate that relationship, too. And Minnie was the one that was trying to keep everyone in line in the first place. And she wasn't interested in Joe. Yeah. I don't think she was jealous. But this gossip, I guess, that Minnie had with a bunch of other people, this discourse, it got under Joe's skin when he found out about it. Minnie was his employee and he didn't want her chiming in. He didn't want her chiming in on his personal life. And so one day, he found a solution to that problem. It is a sunny summer afternoon in South Texas, and it's too nice to stay cooped up inside. So Joe tells his assistant, Clifton, and Minnie that they are not opening up the tavern today. Instead, they're going for a ride down to the coast, the Ford Model A. Then the three of them drive about two hours to Ingleside on the Corpus Christi Bay. When they arrive, Joe parks at a secluded beach. They hop out of the car, and Joe pours drinks for everyone. The liquor goes down easy and warms them up before they step into the cool blue water. They swim for a while until Joe says they should go relax on the sand. Clifton and Minnie follow Joe out of the ocean. Joe grabs some towels from the nearby car and tosses one to each of them. They find a nice spot in the sun, spread out their towels, and crack open some cold beers. Then Joe rummages around in the car for another moment. He knocks something into the back of his swim trunks before joining Clifton and Minnie again. They bask in the sun together for a while, and eventually Minnie stands up to stretch her legs. While she walks around, Joe tells Clifton to go back to the car and grab more whiskey. Then Joe stands and walks towards Minnie. He sees a small bird hopping around in a tree, and he points it out to her. When she turns to look, Joe pulls out a pistol, and at the back of Minnie's head, and pulls the trigger. Clifton heard the gunshot, and he freaked out, right? He was not expecting to hear a gunshot at all. No, they're having this really beautiful, nice day at the beach. Right. Joe quickly finds Clifton and is like, hey, you need to be quiet, you need to calm down. He said he had to do it because Minnie was pregnant with their child, and Joe wanted to be with Buddy instead. And for the record, we don't know if Minnie was actually pregnant, which, this is the tough thing, right? Joe created all the narratives of these stories, so we don't get to hear Minnie's side of it. But we do know what happened next is not up for debate. Now, and we definitely know that this is definitely a premeditated murder, because Joe pulled a couple shovels from his car, so clearly he'd packed for this. Yep. And he ordered Clifton to help him dig. Clifton is terrified, right? He's so scared. Like, who's standing, or what is standing in the way of Joe just shooting Clifton? Right. He realized he had no choice. He either had to dig or potentially suffer the same fate as Minnie. Yep. The two men dug a hole in the sand. They removed all of Minnie's clothes and her jewelry. And then they buried her before they returned home. And back in Elmendorf, Joe told people that Minnie was pregnant with another man's baby and that she had left. So a woman who lived at the tavern, who was a staple part of this institution, who continued to keep people in line and look out for everyone else that worked for this, wild man Joe. Suddenly ran off because she was pregnant with another man's baby but people believed him yeah and this is common like women leaving mysteriously but moving on to other jobs as joe says right but all of her stuff was still at the tavern but people were just like oh well maybe she left in a hurry yeah you don't leave your stuff behind if that's the case and if she's pregnant like she needs her stuff yeah okay so buddy for her part was a little bit happy that minnie was gone right because minnie was making joe more angry and then in september of 1937 about a month or two after minnie was killed joe and buddy got married and shortly after that joe told buddy the truth about what happened to minnie he said that he took her to the beach he killed her but he did it so that she wouldn't cause any more problems between the two of them and we don't know how buddy reacted to this we do know that she remained with joe and that she did not call the police you interesting neither did clifton why because i mean the threat the danger is in the room with you yeah and also the psychology of this is just so confounding because i'm like in joe's twisted mind i bet he he has both guilt which is why he tells buddy but then i think he's tried to convince himself that he did it for love and he did it for them for their relationship so he's almost telling her in this big egotistical show of look at me i'm not going to do this i'm not going to do this my love for you yeah would assume that she was definitely a victim in all of this too absolutely and i think scared totally and that's definitely possible especially because she did tell someone so she told one of her friends 22 year old hazel brown who also worked at the tavern and then it's kind of confusing because people were like well did she say it in a way where the two of them were like oh my god we're so scared we can't tell anyone about this or were they thinking that this was just like an embellishment and joe was just like being weird and like telling this like weird lie that was like meant to be a joke we don't know we might i don't know if someone said that to me i would want to believe it's a joke right and so because they didn't tell the police like hazel didn't tell the police either the theory or like one of the ideas is that maybe they didn't actually take joe's admission seriously right things went on as usual at the tavern joe kept reeling in business with his saturday night gator frenzies and people soon forgot about minnie goddard but it wasn't long before he was able to get rid of his gator frenzy and he was able to before joe was under the microscope again because in january of 1938 his wife buddy lost her arm in a bad car accident although apparently it was a rumor that started going around that people started saying that joe actually cut off buddy's arm and fed it to the alligators which signifies to me that people believe joe was violent in this way right yes because why would that rumor like if it was a car accident presumably there's a police report so people knew joe was a bad guy that reminds me of um i don't know i don't know if i'm wrong but i don't know if i'm wrong but i don't what's that movie is it fresh i don't think i've seen it oh the cannibalism one yeah i don't think i've seen it oh my homework tonight yes and i'll i'll watch you in the life okay so this wasn't true he did not cut off buddy's arm and feed it to the alligator but like you said it proves that people thought joe was shady yeah and it also these rumors might have come out because it seemed like joe was starting to lose a little bit of interest romantic interest in his wife buddy that she was maybe getting in the way because buddy's friend hazel had now caught joe's eye and hazel was the one that buddy had confided in and told the story of many correct correct okay in april 1938 joe and hazel start having an affair behind buddy's back and shortly after that buddy disappeared according to joe she went to go visit her family in san diego and it didn't seem like she was going to come back was her stuff left behind too i don't know but people thought that maybe she'd caught wind of joe's affair and maybe she packed her bags up again people are like making excuses for joe right like everyone clearly thinks that there's something wrong but i don't know if it was out of fear or just like putting on the blinders or really like what was happening outside of just these women who are going missing but um yeah people were just like oh she went to san diego okay that's fine we believe that but other people were like or did he kill her so that he could be with hazel hey i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know whatever happened to buddy joe's romance with hazel was short-lived it's the end of a long night at the sociable inn and the last customer has just stumbled out of the building joe checks the cash register as hazel sweeps the floor when she's done with her task she wipes her hands on her skirt and takes a deep breath she walks over to the bar where joe's counting money she needs to tell him something joe barely looks up as hazel explains that she met someone one of their customers in fact he's got a good job he owns a house and she can't sleep in the back room of the tavern forever she sees a real life with this man so hazel's leaving joe says nothing he just keeps counting the money hazel asks him to say something and after a moment he puts down the cash looks up at her and says no he will not let her leave not after everything they've been through he betrayed her and he's not going to let her go he's not going to let her go he betrayed his wife to be with her so now hazel's getting angry it's not up to him she says she is going joe steps around the bar and raises his voice he will not allow it hazel belongs here she belongs to him hazel frustrated needs to show him she's serious she needs joe to understand she is done with him so she tells him something she has never talked about with anybody hazel looks at joe and tells him she knows he can't do it she's not going to let him go she's not going to and she's pretty sure he killed buddy too if he tries to make trouble for her she is going to go to the police enraged joe pulls out his pistol and hits hazel across the face so hard she is knocked unconscious he didn't want things to end like this but he can't risk hazel talking to the police so he grabs his pistol and fires a single shot killing hazel this time joe did not bury his victim after killing hazel he stuffed her remains into one of his old whiskey barrels and he loaded the barrel into his car he drove out to his sister's farm in elmendorf and then he put the barrel behind his sister's barn he figured no one would ever see it there no one would find it but then one night shortly after that joe told clifton to load up the car with blankets and beer they both were drinking very heavily this night so clifton was reluctant to get in the car with him he really didn't want to but he also knew that he could not challenge joe meanwhile joe had packed a saw an axe and a post hole digger which was a tool that made deep round holes in the ground poor clifton can you imagine the fear of every time joe is telling him to pack up the car and he's watching joe loaded up with these really really ominous terrifying tools right because he's already been witnessed to one at least participate in at least one murder yeah he's seeing everyone else go missing so yeah he knows he can't challenge joe joe has all these weird tools ready in the car they're super drunk the two men get into the car and joe drives them over to his sister's barn in elmendorf and there is this unbearable smell coming from the barrel in the back as soon as they pull up clifton can smell this it is permeating his nose it's disgusting and this is the second time that joe makes clifton help him get rid of a body they brought the barrel to a spot on the san antonio river about three miles outside of elmendorf joe then pulls out his pistol and forces clifton to dig a grave so he's doing it at gunpoint too yeah yeah no choice yeah after a while joe tells him he can stop and he can help him dump the barrel and when they did clifton realized in that moment that he was helping joe bury hazel oh because he didn't realize he had no idea who was in the barrel at the time however her remains wouldn't fit in the shallow grave that clifton had dug so joe dismembered hazel's body and then to be extra sure that no one could recognize who she was and what was left he burned her head ah and for a little bit of time after this happened nobody knew what had been done so as far as he knows he's getting away with it but only so many women can start disappearing before people begin to to ask questions and wonder and i also the number is at least three right we know and also as we just discussed hazel was murdered because she was trying to leave joe for another man right so i'm curious thinking yeah or and so did the other did she tell the other man anything and yeah he's now going to be looking for her he's like hazel told me she was going to leave joe for me that's a and now i don't know where she is right so over the next few months rumors are swirling about joe's missing waitress and other women had also disappeared so minnie buddy and now hazel plus there was also a 16 year old boy who used to come around the tavern a lot and he also seemed to vanish mysteriously and so people are now whispering that when joe loses his temper he will feed you to his alligators he is the alligator man yep and this is why no one said anything because they were afraid of being fed and they were afraid of being fed and they were to the alligators yeah and so he just kept living it up in this tavern. Like nothing was wrong. But then on September 24th, 1938, a few months after Hazel disappeared, somebody finally spoke up. And once Joe realized that people were onto him, he did something that nobody expected. It's now September of 1938. Hazel Brown has been missing for a few months. And the only people who know what happened to her is 42 year old Joe Ball and his longtime employee, 32 year old Clifton Wheeler. Joe has killed Hazel and Clifton helped dispose of her body. And for a while, rumors spread around town that Joe was killing waitresses who worked at his tavern. And we're all like, when is someone going to say something? On September 23rd, 1938, Bexar County Deputy Sheriff John Gray is hunting doves in Elmendorf when an old man approaches him. And this old man is like, I have something really concerning to report. And this old man is about Joe Ball. Interesting. The old man had found this barrel, the foul smelling barrel that had been at Joe's sister's property behind her barn for just a short period of time before they disposed of it. He had found this barrel and he had seen Joe leave it there. So super incriminating now. Like there's a witness to all of this. And he, from the smell of it, was really worried that there was a dead body in there. And so this was kind of just like eating away at him. And he was like, what's going on here? And Gray, the sheriff, he knew that people were whispering about Joe and that these were the sort of rumors going around. So he was like, you know, is this just adding into like the mystery around Joe and the rumors of him feeding people to the alligators? Because up until this point too, yes, people are spreading these rumors and people believe Joe was a little bit kooky. And he probably liked it. He probably fed into it because it's like, oh, you think I'm like mad? Come Saturday night, watch me feed my gators. Exactly. But I feel like this is a little bit kooky. He probably fed into it because it's like, oh, this is probably the first time where there's evidence of something that they can and should and now are going to investigate. Right. Yes. So Deputy Sheriff Gray, he's like, okay, maybe this is worth checking out. So he does go to this property with his fellow deputy, John Clevenhagen, and they go check it out. But the barrel is not there. The barrel that the old man said that he saw Joe dump that smells foul is now missing. Yeah. And when they go back to the barn, they go back to the barn. And this time, Joe's sister was there. And they ask her and she goes, oh, yeah, he did dump a barrel back here. So now the deputies turn back around and drive back out to the tavern. And this time, their conversation with Joe goes very differently. When deputies Gray and Clevenhagen enter the tavern, Joe stands behind the bar alone sipping a beer. He waves them over with a smile and asks if they'd like a drink. They shake their heads no. This is serious. So Joe asked them if this is about his wife, Buddy. He knows that there's rumors going around that something bad happened to her. But Joe promises the deputies that Buddy's completely fine. She's just visiting some family in San Diego. Deputy Gray tells him to drop the act. They know the barrel was at the barn. Joe's own sister confirmed it. He tells Joe they're taking him down to the station in San Antonio for questioning. And Joe just shakes his head and laughs. He promises that this is all just a big misunderstanding. He asks the deputies if he can finish his beer first and lock up the tavern. And they say, sure. Joe's just acting so casually that they think maybe he is telling the truth. So they stand back while Joe enjoys his beer and counts the money in the cash register. He rifles through the cash for a moment before pulling out his pistol. Joe waves the gun back and forth at the deputies. They reach for their own weapons. But Joe doesn't want to fight. Instead, Joe turns the pistol on himself. Clevin Hagen has the time to yell one word. Don't. But he's too late. Joe pulls the trigger, ending his own life. So the deputies are sure now that Joe died by suicide so that he could evade any of the charges against Clevin Hagen. They still need to figure out exactly what he'd done. So later that day, a group of deputies joined Gray and Clevin Hagen at the tavern and they searched the entire property, including the gator pit, which was surrounded by rotting meat. Which also is probably terrifying for these two officers and others to come. They're gators. They're wild animals. They don't know what kind of meat it is. Right. There's five of them, too. Like, how do you search that safely? Yeah. Yeah. They found, next to the gator pit, an axe matted with blood and hair. Ugh. And this made them wonder, are the rumors true? Did Joe actually dismember his victims and feed them to his pet alligators? And so they decided they would talk to the person who knew Joe best. His assistant, Clifton Wheeler. Yep. Shortly after Joe died, 32-year-old Clifton was brought into the station in San Antonio. And first, they wanted to know, does he know anything about Joe's wife, Buddy, who's missing? Is she really in San Diego or was it her body in the barrel? And Clifton goes, I don't know where Buddy is, but I know for sure that her body was not in the barrel because the body in the barrel was Hazel Brown. So Clifton admitted that he did help Joe bury Hazel's body. And in early October 1938, about two weeks after police had first received the tip about the barrel from that old man who was witness to it, Clifton led a group of had moved the barrel to, Clifton had to dig the grave at gunpoint, and then they put Hazel's dismembered body in the shallow grave. When Clifton took them to the shallow grave, they had no clue the conditions of which they would actually find Hazel's body. And nothing could prepare them for the horrifying scene that they were about to uncover. Right. Because along with Hazel's dismembered limbs, Clifton showed them the remains of her head that had been burned in a campfire, whose ashes were still there, on the bluff above the San Antonio River. So sad. The officers managed to dig out Hazel's jawbone, a few of her teeth, shards of her skull. And now seeing this, they knew exactly what Joe Ball was capable of. And so they wondered how many other people had he killed. How many people who were missing, both attached to the tavern and not, were at the hands of Joe Ball. So they go back to Clifton, his assistant, and ask once more. Clifton admits that he also helped Joe bury Minnie Goddard. And two days after they recovered Hazel's remains, Clifton led investigators to a secluded spot on the bay where Joe had shot Minnie. A little boy runs down the beach, weaving through a massive crowd. He heads for a makeshift stand where a man is selling cold drinks. The boy pays for a couple of sodas and then races back to find his mom. He does not want to miss a minute of the action. He finds his mom standing at the edge of a large hole, surrounded by other families. A police officer is standing at the bottom, shoveling sand. There are other holes just like this all around the bay. The boy passes the officer a soda, and the officer drains the entire bottle in just a few gulps. The police have been at this for days. The boy's mom hasn't said what they're looking for, but the other kids on the beach have been at this for days. The boy has been at this for days. The officer goes back to digging. He's just about to go splash in the water when the policeman suddenly stops. He looks up at everyone around the hole, his eyes wide. He shouts at them to get back, and he climbs out. He calls over to another officer. I found her. The boy cannot contain his curiosity. He scoots to the end. Many of these remains were discovered on October 14, 1938. There was a single bullet that had gone through her skull, confirming Clifton's story of how she passed. And it truly was this outrageous scene where people gathered in an archaic way to. It's like the morbid curiosity, right? You see an accident on the highway, you can't help but slow down. It's the same way that people kept going to the alligator pit to watch Joe feed live animals to the alligators. Yeah, you can't believe the horror in front of your own eyes. Yeah. So meanwhile, another group of officers tried to solve the lingering mystery of one person whose body they have not uncovered, Joe's wife, Buddy. What happened to Buddy? According to Joe, she was with family in San Diego. And this was surprising to me. She actually was. Buddy did actually go to San Diego. She was alive. She was alive. And she. I guess now we can confirm, like, yeah, she was probably terrified of Joe. Yeah. Because this was her way of escaping Joe and having a fresh start. Like, they were still married. She just peaced out. She was like, see ya. Which, thank goodness. Because based on Joe's track record, like, there were two options here. I mean, Hazel tried to leave, and she got murdered. So it does make me wonder how he knew she was going to San Diego, too, because I am curious, like, how she got away. Yeah. So authorities wanted to find out more about how much Buddy knew of Joe's crimes. So a couple weeks after Joe died, Bexar County deputies travel out to California. they go down to San Diego, they track down Buddy, and they bring her back to San Antonio with them. Buddy now confesses that Joe confessed to her that he had killed Minnie. Other than that, she doesn't know anything else. There's no more information that she can provide these officers with, and so Buddy's allowed to go free now. But the investigators are pretty sure that Joe hadn't only killed Minnie and Hazel, and they are now hearing rumors that he'd killed maybe up to a dozen women. There are a ton of leads coming in. Officers are searching the tavern for clues. Everyone's feverishly trying to figure out this killer who might be a serial killer with a pit of alligators. What actually happened? And he is now dead, so they can't interrogate him. And also Clifton, who was very forthcoming with the police, he, as far as we know, was only privy to and around for the two murders that he had to help Joe cover up. But there's no reason for that. He has no reason to now that Joe's passed away, but that doesn't mean Joe wasn't killing people on the side or disposing of bodies on his own otherwise. So desperate for leads, officers kept searching the tavern. Eventually, they uncover a stash of love letters and a scrapbook containing photos of dozens of women. One of them was Stella, the waitress who disappeared after complaining to Joe about Minnie. And unfortunately, this discovery didn't generate new leads, so they're not really sure what happened. Since so many people passed through this town, officers had no really official record or way of trying to like track down everybody. We actually don't know how many people Joe Ball actually harmed or killed. We just know that a lot of them passed through his tavern and many people disappeared. So then we have the biggest question of them all. One that made Joe into a terrifying urban legend. Did he actually feed his victims to the alligators? We can't know for sure. But it does seem like it was just a story because when police searched the gator pool, they never found any human remains there. And in doing a little bit of research, I don't know alligators well. I haven't spent a life researching them. But apparently, alligators don't fully consume human remains. Like there would be some remnants or remains in the alligator pool. So had Joe tried to feed anyone to his alligators, I think the police would have found something and they didn't. It didn't stop the rumors, though. No. Everyone still talked about it. And one story that did get passed around a lot was from a few years before Joe died. There was an old man who supposedly saw him throwing a body into the gator pool. Of course. Like especially after they find the bodies, everyone's going to amp up the rumors, too. No, but this was years before Joe died. So maybe this was like the nexus of everything. Like this is when it all started. True. True. So they began to throw this man, this witness in there, too, if he said anything. And that man fled town and only returned after Joe had died. Damn. So the rumors go. But this is just one of the many stories that floated around and none of them could really be proven. And so the community started to move on from Joe Ball. And the gators eventually moved on, too. They were freed from their backyard prison. And all five of these gators who were captured and held by Joe lived out their days at the San Antonio Zoo. Damn. At the same time, Clifton Wheeler, who was forced to commit all of these crimes alongside Joe, and had openly confessed and aided investigators in finding and recovering these bodies. Clifton served two years in jail for acting as an accessory to murder. And after his release, he actually opened his own bar in Elmendorf. Wow. Very impressive. Yeah. We don't know how long he ran the bar, but one day, adding to the mystery, Clifton vanished. And was never heard from again. Isn't that such a weird twist? Interesting. Yeah. So this, like, adds to the mystery. The folklore is being built up around Joe's story. Because where the heck did Clifton go? Like, he opened his own business. He's now the boss. He has got this successful tavern, this bar in town. And then, boom, he's done. He's gone. I think dark things that people in the town did something to him. But we don't know. But I just, I hope he just ran away and started fresh somewhere else. Me too. Pulp Crime Magazine's had a field day with this story. And they claim that Joe fed countless people to his monstrous flesh-eating alligators. And this earned him the nickname the Butcher of Elmendorf and Alligator Man. And so the story did start morphing into an urban legend and more retellings of it. Added new details every single time, a bunch of different layers. And that's also that coupled with the lack of some of the reporting and just, like, evidence of people coming and going. It does make for a story where it's hard to know all of the details of what truly happened. Right. But all to say that Joe Ball's name became synonymous with monster. And so now knowing the facts about Joe Ball's case and his crimes, it's easy to understand why people would be fascinated by it enough to turn it into a horror film. People like Toby Hooper, who was a hot commodity after the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I thought you were going to say, who was hot? I don't know. I haven't seen a picture of him. But he's a hot commodity after the Texas Chainsaw Massacre came out in 1974. And when a producer named Marty Rustem started developing Eaten Alive, he was like, I've got the perfect director for this, Toby Hooper. Hooper wasn't really sure about it at first. So he claimed he didn't really like the script at first. But something changed. Yeah, something fascinated him. Maybe it was because he was born in Austin, Texas. So not too far from where he was born. Yeah. Yeah. From where Joe Ball was. But after a bunch of rewrites of the script, he did end up with a version of the story that he was happy with. And it's impossible to say what the first screenplay was like. I don't know if I want to know. No. The final version, you can see, really does echo Joe Ball's story. And it starts with a villain, not named Joe, but with Judd and his pet of choice. So like Joe Ball's tavern, Judd has a motel in an isolated area, in this case, a swampy marshland. And he. He has a pet crocodile that has the taste for human flesh, which probably wasn't true in real life. But like Joe's alligators, it also happily eats live animals too, including a real. It's such a sad scene. It's a poor little puppy named Snoopy who is there with. It's like a couple and a daughter and their dog Snoopy. And it was a very tragic moment when poor Snoopy went into the pit. This is so sad. And similar to the waitresses who vanished from Joe Ball's tavern, people in the movie, mysteriously go missing when they stay at Judd's motel. And in the movie, we do see what happens to them. Judd goes after his terrified guests with a giant scythe and then proceeds to feed them to his crocodile. And like I said earlier, it really does play like an unhinged fever dream. And the soundtrack is amped up. It's really loud. It kind of. The very beginning of it feels like torture porn, like horror porn. Oh. Yeah. As you were describing it, I was like hunching over more and more and more, like trying to crawl into my own body. Yeah. And almost the entire movie takes place under a blood red sky, which is really hard to look at for a full hour and 30 minutes, which I think is kind of the point. Like, it's not supposed to be like, oh, this relaxing movie to watch, you know? It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. And I think that's the point, because it's impossible to escape. Like, this is a hellish alternate dimension. Yeah. And in ways, I feel like the people of Elmendorf probably felt that about. About Joe and just maybe even about the town, that his whole family had like such deep-rooted ties. They were clawed in. So this man, he was feeding live animals to his gators for entertainment. His employees were going missing. Stepping into Joe's tavern was like entering a vortex of violence and death. And all of this continued to happen until Joe's hubris got the best of him. But unlike real life, where we are left with so many unanswered questions from Joe Ball's story and about his victims. Yeah. Toby Hooper found a more satisfying way for Judd to meet his fate. And spoiler alert, at the end of this movie, a crocodile eats Judd while he chases people through the swamp. Poetic justice. Yeah. Like, getting a taste of your own medicine. I wish that happened in real life. I know. But unfortunately, we got that ending in a movie instead. Which does, not to do spoilers of a new movie, but it does remind me a little bit of the ending of. Weapons? Yeah. Have you seen it? I've watched half of it on TikTok. I was going to say, when did you watch this? On TikTok, of course. But yeah, so the movie is. It's interesting. And for movie audiences, that ending is definitely satisfying. But in real life, it was not that easy. Joe Ball's death by suicide, it left a lot of questions unanswered and his victims' loved ones, they never got the closure that they so deserved. But there is still a lesson to be learned by all of this. One that we can take from Joe Ball's story and the movie based on his life. Because there's something that Joe Ball's alligator feedings, true crime, and horror movies all have in common. Sometimes they can become a spectacle. And the more we see it as pure entertainment, the more we become desensitized to it. And these are real people at the center of all of these stories. They're real victims. There are real families. And they are living with these real life horror stories. And in this case, people were so fascinated by Joe Ball and his theories that they were theatrics that they didn't really ask too many questions when women kept disappearing and sadly at least two women lost their lives at the hands of this man by draping himself in the violence of his alligators people didn't think to look past it and hold him accountable letting their fears just become rumor which added to his legend and maybe if people had become more willing to question joe joe could have been stopped sooner and the actual outcome could have been more satisfying i am grateful for that old man who witnessed one little odd thing and reported it right and it's interesting that the movie is called eaten alive because clearly that man was eaten like that was what he witnessed was eating him alive because he didn't come forward right away he sat in it which i'm sure a lot of people did see things and started to make connections but again we're sitting with it because they're like that can't be true yeah i can't get involved thank you so much for listening we are your hosts sabrina jones diana roga and corinne vienne join us next tuesday for another peek inside another crimes of infamy here at crime house we want to thank each and every one of you for your support and if you like what you heard today reach out on all social media at crime house don't forget to rate review and follow crimes of wherever you get your podcasts your feedback truly makes a difference bye bye see you later alligators hi i'm connor tomlinson you might know me from love on the spectrum history is my thing and i have been waiting my whole life for a show like this one and i'm carter roy and this is what the fact every week three facts each one with a whole story behind it the worst years anyone has ever lived through the golden age of pirates the movies that almost never got made the discoveries that rewrote everything we thought we knew carter sets the scene connor brings the facts the tangents and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world it is the wildest stuff is real and the real stuff is wilder than you think new episodes every wednesday follow what the fact on apple podcasts spotify amazon music or subscribe on youtube at what the fact pod the moment a body is found the clock starts ticking 48 hours that's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold from a and e and crime house this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series the first 48 step inside the critical window the interrogations the dead ends and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open i'm carter roy each week i revisit a landmark homicide investigation with the depth you know and immersive long-form storytelling built for your ears real detectives real cases real stakes this is the first 48 new episodes every thursday listen to and follow the first 48 on apple podcasts spotify amazon music or wherever you listen to podcasts looking for your next podcast check out what the fact it's a new show from connor tomlinson who you know from netflix's love on the spectrum alongside carter roy every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them follow what the fact wherever you listen or subscribe on youtube at what the fact pod