Industry Icon - Kelly Schaff

I'm David Brown and this is the Angus Underground. Producer Sean and I just returned home from the National Western Stock Show and we had a very special episode coming up tonight in the Master Breeder Series. Sean how did you enjoy the Stock Show experience of 2025? Oh it was amazing, absolutely amazing. The weather was wonderful, we met so many new people, our friends and customers you know I had a successful event, it was just great. You know I've said many times the value of National Western Stock Show is the network. You get to go there and you renew these acquaintances, these relationships but you also meet so many people that you've never even heard of and that's part of your network and I can tell you in this business the network is much much more viable than the cattle. Absolutely. So with that being said do you remember the first time you and I went to the Stock Show together? I do. I believe it was 1992. Yeah that was a few years ago. What stands out to me besides us we took three bulls, we showed on the hill I think your memory is a little different to mine but we got our asses whipped. I thought we at least had a division winner but we may have and maybe my definition of success was a little bit different then but we were a pretty hardcore so we were hardcore and we had a great time but there were a couple of things that stood out to me beyond us getting our asses whipped. One was the weather in Denver can change on a dime. It can be 71 day in a foot of snow the next and I do remember as we were getting ready to leave it's snowed and it's snowed and we were stuck in Denver. Which was fine. Which was fine. We took care of the cattle got them fed and went back to the hotel room and watch football. That's how familiar. That's what I remember. Okay. So on a previous episode you said your favorite part of the Stock Show in Denver is going out to eat in the dinners. How were the dinners this year? Off the charts. Well, I'm going to tell you what we need a new sponsorship from Del Frisco's double legal stake house. We spent there over the years. I would think we would have part ownership in it. But it was fantastic. It is. That place never disappoints. I know because we've talked about it previously on the Angus Underground. People come to Denver and late in the afternoon they're hanging around us hoping to get that invite to Del Frisco's but unfortunately it costs so much. I mean, I had to take out a loan this year. Just go to Del Frisco's but it was spectacular. I want to point out this. Yeah, we were talking about the dinners, Capitol Grill, second place. It's fantastic. But I want to talk about one of the more memorable meals I had. Which was the last evening we were there. And so I won our listeners picture this. It's been a long day. It's cold. We've been to the pin show. You know, we're cold. We're tired. So we swing by the cheesecake factory there in downtown Denver. I've been known to eat a little bit of cheesecake in my day. Okay. So we've got a lot of things going that last evening. Okay. We've got the Washington commanders. They're in the playoffs. By the way, they haven't been the playoffs forever. It's been a long time. But I'm going to tell you what, they're back and they're good and they were playing Detroit. And I said, I've got to see this game. But at the same time, we've got the frozen genetic sale online for the National Western Foundation sale on cell ring live on cell ring live. It's going on. And so here's the picture, folks. We're back in the hotel room. I've got the game on. Sound is down. We've got the foundation sale frozen genetics sale going on on the iPad sound is up. And here I am lying in bed eating cheesecake watching all this happened. Okay. So it's not a pretty sight. But I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun. And the best part is our friends who had lots of that sale did great. And again, I want to congratulate and thank Matt McFarlane of M3 marketing and Dave Mullins from Compass livestock solutions. And I know I got that wrong Dave. Sorry. You guys put on organized and managed this National Western foundation sale like no other. It is a huge undertaking. Okay. They're bringing in cattle from all over the country. In fact, all over the continent, top selling bulls from Canada this year, but a fantastic event, over a $14,000 average and these cattle went everywhere. And I cannot think those guys enough. So while we were there in Denver, we also had the privilege of taking a tour of the new cattle facilities, which will be open in 2026. What do you think about that? Oh, they were amazing. We have to thank Jennifer Boca for allowing us to go along with just a small group. I think there were about 15 of us that had the opportunity to view the new facility and it's spectacular. Yeah, it's really cool. I would say my takeaway from that is from someone who many, many years ago exhibited on the hill, the improvements are unbelievable. I mean, you've got a wash rack, multiple wash racks now. Okay, these are vented. They've got fans pulling out the moisture and they're big enough. You're not going to get soaked. I think they said the one head room for to tie in 40 head at least. At least they were huge, huge. And if you've been up to the cowboy bar on the hill, have faith. There's going to be a new cowboy bar down in these new facilities and it is huge. That was the biggest surprise. Yeah, I was surprised. Good grief. How many people can you fit in this place? But it's really neat. They built a new show arena. I think it sees what 3,400 is. Yeah, I believe that's correct. So here's the thing. Here's the thing. There was so much tradition with the old hill facility and I know we don't like to, in this business, we don't like to move on from tradition. But this will be the ultimate experience. It's going to be first class and I cannot wait for it to be open because it's going to change the dynamic there before you were talking about and I know I'm exaggerating. There was a quarter mile and it was uphill from the yards to the old show facility that they called the hill. At this point next year, you can walk right out of that barn and you're in the yards. I mean, it is going to change the dynamic. Okay. So let's move on. Now we were there. We had a lot of fun because we take many of what I call man on the street segments. Okay. So let me paint the picture for you. Okay. Random people are walking past our exhibit, our display, our tent down the yards and I would physically grab them and guess what? Some of them are people I knew. Some of them are household names in the Seats stock world. But a lot of them weren't. And a lot of them were young people and I thought they were so impressive. They were amazing. Yeah. So there was one young man. I'd never met, never heard of, never seen, didn't know anything about him. He actually walked up to me and he started asking me questions. And I said, these questions are so good. Please join me on the recording and he stepped in there and that was so much fun for me. Okay. So I said many are not household names in the Seats stock world. That was intentional because I want to deliver varied viewpoints. We do this podcast because we want to inspire independent thinking. And if you're hearing just the same old, hey, this is how I do it. This is the way you need to do it. That's not inspiring. But if you can hear from a guy who raises cattle traditionally versus a guy in the middle of Nebraska, who is a listener by the way, who raises them as unconventionally as you can imagine, it's going to, it's going to make you stop and think about how you're doing things. We will be releasing these interviews as what we call bonus content. So you're used to hearing an episode every two weeks. But our plan is we're going to drop this in between our regular episodes. And I guarantee you, you will hear a wide array of opinions on all things Seats stock. So let's talk about today's episode. So this is another in our master brief. series where we take you behind the scenes and behind the promotion and today we're going to take you deep deep. I'm talking the recesses into the mind of someone who has not only been a personal friend and a mentor to me for more than 35 years. In fact, I'm going to call this guest perhaps the most influential, most well-known breeder of Seedstock throughout the world over the last 25 years and I'm going to call him an absolute icon in the beef cattle industry. If you are an aspiring breeder of Seedstock or even if you're an accomplished breeder, I guarantee you that you will get something from this interview and when we return we're going to dive deep into that mind. Please stay tuned. What do the words practicality, functionality and heterosis mean to you? These three words represent the objectives and core values of the Rousey-Semangus breeding program. While each word has a different meaning all three are cohesive in nature and blend themselves to produce real-world problem-free no-nonsense cattle that are productive and profitable through all sectors of the beef industry. The benefit of added pounds, enhanced fertility and longer lifetime production are all too important to ignore. We invite you to the annual Rousey Semangus Bull sale at 1 p.m. on February 8th at the Lincoln County Fairgrounds in North Platinum, Nebraska. Featured in the sale will be 90 black Semangus Bulls and 70 red Semangus Bulls. And what a set of bulls these are. These bulls are a pack full of muscle. Their sound is a dollar and backed by some of the most honest hardworking cows in the business. Each bull comes with a first breeding season guarantee and free delivery in Nebraska and surrounding states. And guess what? You'll receive a $250 sell credit just by viewing the bulls at the ranch prior to the sale. Can't make it to the sale? View videos of the bulls and bid from the Comfort of your Bark Allosure at DV auction. Again planned to be at the Rousey Semangus Bulls sale on Saturday February 8th in North Platinum, Nebraska. Until then, go view the catalog at RouseySemangus.com and for more information follow RouseySemangus on Facebook or give Tyrell or Deandra Rousey a call at 308-530-9279. You'll be glad you did. We're extremely honored to have a special guest join us tonight and this is going to be one of our many episodes in the series that I like to call Master Breeder. There's some folks out there in the world that they started from the ground up, built their business into something I think in the last episode I called it an Angus Empire. But it's more than that. It's a cattle empire. It's a business empire. But we are honored to have a special guest tonight. I consider him a friend, also consider him a mentor and I know that he's an inspiration to many out there in the Angus world. In my opinion, he is the most astute and most prepared Breeder that I've ever known. His depth of knowledge about pedigree, confirmation and Angus history is second to none. When we say the phrase attention to detail and you've heard that many times throughout the many episodes that we've released here on Angus Underground, that phrase hardly seems sufficient when we describe our guest. His breeding operation has experienced both worldwide acclaim and annually markets more than 500 bulls to both registered and commercial producers from all over North America and routinely post one of if not the highest sell averages in the industry. Kelly Shoff, welcome to the Angus Underground. Well, thank you, David, for your kind words and it's certainly a pleasure for me to be with you this evening. Well, Kelly, it's certainly our pleasure. And before we get started on finding out what makes Kelly Shoff tick, I first want to hear about Shoff's Angus Valley. Tell us about the history of the ranch, your family's involvement in the operation. We want to hear what makes it go. I probably get a lot of the credit for it, David, but it was started well before my time. In fact, the ranch was homesteaded by my great-grandfather 1902 and then my grandfather started the registered Angus herd in 1942 with the purchase of his first registered Angus cattle which happened to be primrose and that was the start of the registered operation. So I would be the fourth generation on the ranch and my children the fifth and fortunate to have two grandchildren be the sixth. So, you know, been fortunate and blessed to be able to continue a tradition that started here long before my time. And so a little bit about the history is it's been rooted in black Angus cattle in the valley here of St. Anthony for many, many years and it's just kind of all I knew. I grew up in the business and I guess it was a tradition that, you know, we were fortunate to carry forward on. I do have a beautiful wife, Marty, that's very involved in the operation and she's kind of my inspiration keeps me going and is a great motivator for me and our daughters they're grown up now and the daughters married and my son-in-law, her husband, would help on the ranch when he's not involved in this other business and they blessed us with two grandbabies and my youngest daughter Courtney is just finishing up her last semester of college. She was just home here for Christmas vacation. I got just spend it in the clipping barn blowing out and cleaning bowls. So I guess I would say the whole family is involved in the operation from, you know, tooth and nail and and it makes it a lot more fun, you know, when everybody's involved and it's a it's a team kind of a team spirit. Kelly, I've gotten to know you quite well over the years and I know that you're extremely hands-on in the operation and I think a lot of folks are shocked when they hear that because it's a substantial operation. I know just texting you back and forth the last couple of weeks. I mean, you've been in the clipping barn trying to get, you know, 600 head ready for a sale. I think that makes you fairly unique because a lot of folks don't have that attention to detail. You want to get it right and I know you've got a great crew there. I think we share a lot of the same qualities in that manner. We're going to touch on that a little bit later when we pull the curtain back on Kelly's shop, the person. But first, let's talk about some of the cow families that are and I know the cow families are the foundation to your program. I guess how did you initially land on the key families? How did you select those? Well, you know, the original families here, David, were, you know, were selected before my time. But when they did initiate the original females and what have came primarily from three out, you know, three locations, there were a number of different cow families at that time that would have came to the ranch to start the registered herd in the 1940s and like the black cat May and emblem and that's those were original families that came in the 1940s and prospered. Whereas other families just with selection pressure for fertility and quality and type and and all the things that made the cut to continue the herd, there's many families that went into extinction and, you know, that are no longer here. And then and yet there's some of the families that really propagated through selection pressure and kind of rose to the top. So it's interesting how the cream rises to the top, but over time, you know, that's what we've seen with certain cow families. And you know, I mentioned emblem and which would be our most prolific family and black cat May, those were original families from the early 1940s that, you know, always had the longevity and and the fertility and the stability to stay in the herd and and their daughters did and that continued later on in which they'd still been here for a long time. The Madam Pryce came into play and they've been here over a half century and those would be, you know, presently the three kind of major or most dominating cow families. We have several other ones that would, you know, have very high quality individuals, but those three families have have had a lot of impact here and, you know, would have went way back to the, you know, to the early years of the herd. Whereas other families that maybe would have had the same chance to succeed just over time and selection, you know, ended up falling by the wayside. So I guess that would be a selection of the best and sorting and discipline calling over the years is how, you know, you see some families rise to the top. Sure. And with these different cow families, do you observe some differences in these families and I guess their productivity, their type, their function, their fertility. And if you do, do you then try to weave those families back and forth? Well, there certainly is family tradition that carries true on a lot of those different cow families. But as you know, as you make these cow families to the same pool of bulls for many, many years and many generations and keep daughters of those, you know, you actually unify the look and type of these cow families quite a bit from where they may be, you know, when they originated because you're, you know, every time you do a mating half the genetics are coming from, you know, from the sire side. And so in the first year, you take a madam pride in a black cat may, for instance, and you breed them to the same bowl. They're the next generation of daughters are going to have 50% of the DNA from the dam side and 50% from the sire. You do that again and pretty soon 75% of the DNA is coming. So you actually over time, you still carry the cow family name, but honestly within the herd, if you were to visually go out there and be able to decipher the difference between a black cat May and an emblem at, or a madam pride, I would say the differences would be very subtle, just because there's so many years of breeding on them in a controlled breeding herd, if that makes sense. - It does. I know within those families, you've identified some females over the years that were exceptionally pre potent. It's very interesting to me when I studied the pedigrees to see those cows keep popping up time after time. And one question I wanted to ask you as it relates to the cow families, and let's just single this out. Let's talk about the black cat Mays and specifically 4136, which would be the dam of so many of the great herd sires. I mean, I won't even attempt to name them all here, but most of our audience will know who she is and what she's done. I know it's been five, six, seven years ago, and observing your program, you were doing a bit of line breeding to that cow. What have you found there when you get that cow multiple times in a three generation pedigree? - Well, with line breeding, David, if you're line breeding superior cows that are proven, I guess I feel like line breeding can be a very powerful tool for adding consistency and consistent quality in a mating, and quite a bit of predictability. So we do a lot of line breeding here, maybe not as tight as some, but I'm always in favor of bringing in a great cow in a pedigree more than once, and even two or three times in many cases. We would have a lot of the pedigrees here that would have 4136 in the pedigree three times. And I guess I think that adds to consistency and potency of how those cattle breed, especially when you bring something else on top of them, you have almost like a heterosis within the breed. But the line breeding, if you go back and you look at even the very best, a lot of the very best breeding cattle in our breed, but even if you wanna go across other species, whether it be in horses or dairy cows or dogs, it seems like most of the really extreme top or high end individuals in multi species usually have a common ancestor in their pedigree three times. You know, I would say that line breeding is really a potent tool, you know, within Angus, but you know, across almost all species as I've studied it over the years. So I do think it's a powerful tool. And not to say just in breeding cattle, brother to sister, I don't usually breed them as close as maybe some, but I like to stare, step it. And I do think it sets the genes and certainly gives you a higher degree of reliability by doing that. - Indeed. The one thing, and I've become a student of your program, I think the one thing that a lot of us can really associate when we think about shoving its valley is this distinctive type and kind that's unique to SAV. When I say that, I'm talking about these cows that they've got a powerful hip in them, yet they're wedge-shaped, they're bondsman and appearance, picture perfect utters, and these really extended feminine front thirds. And these are cattle that when we talk about a type and a kind, these are typically you're more productive, more, I hate to use the word here in this instance, but I think it's applicable to more maternal type. - Yes. - But with a little more power. Is that how you would describe the SAV type? - I think you hit the nail on the head. When I think of the SAV type on the females, number one, they need to be feminine, but that feminine needs to be accompanied with depth of body and capacity. And if a cow is deep-bodied and has a lot of capacity and rib shape and she's angular and feminine fronted, usually that's a great starting point on what I call a SAV maternal look. When you have feminine, femininity makes great females. And if you have a feminine cow, is usually the feminine cows or the cows that are gonna have a more desirable utter and all sort are typically your higher maternal cows as far as milking ability and just production ability. So femininity would be really a high priority when I select for females and matched with body capacity. And they certainly need to have enough muscle. They don't have to be freaks for muscle, but they have to have adequate muscle. And I do like a nice level square hip and a wider pin set so that they've got some substance behind them, but have a lot of capacity and girth and still look like a female. Oftentimes if you find a really stout, heifer calf that maybe is heavy muscle, but she's a little bullish or shorter necked or thicker necked or doesn't have that length of front. They might look good as a young animal as a heifer calf or a bred heifer but when they enter production, at least in my experience, they usually don't end up being your top cows. It's usually that real feminine maternal cow that had that length of front and that real lady look to her that ends up being your best producers. Even if they were maybe only females at my duration of 98 to 102 at weaning time, but they had the feminine maternal look. Those would be the ones I would bank on, making my best cows here. - So think back, let's turn the calendar back. Let's turn it back a number of years. Maybe even through the first time that you and I met, when did you develop that approach to have this defined type? And it's very distinctive for those in our audience that have not been to SAV, it is a distinctive type. I mean, it's almost like a cookie cutter. If you can go out there and look at 500 plus cows and they all pretty much have a defined, similar consistent type to them. But at what point in your career did you say, I need to have this given type? - There was probably a lot of different influences along the way. I still would attribute back in the early years, just formating kind of cattle judging, basic cattle judging. The Forest and FFA program, I was involved in both of them. And we had very progressive judging teams on both. And I think just being able to evaluate cattle and analyze them, I really attribute a lot of success to myself and young people that were involved in those programs early on, because you learn to look at cattle and analyze them. And I guess growing up in the business probably more than anything is when you've seen those, the heifers that you thought were the best ones, or the ones that you weren't sure. And you kind of tracked them through as a heifer calf to a bred heifer to a cow. And you see which ones really turned it on as a cow and had the great utters. And were the good producers. It was probably just a little bit of a learned concept by following different animals and seeing which ones, that really made the grade. And over time, I guess I really kind of found a certain type that I identified with and I liked. And I was even involved a bit into just my coincidence and the dairy judging team as they had one of the judges moved or and they needed somebody to fill in. And I knew how to judge livestock, but I didn't know anything about dairy. But I was throwing on the dairy judging team and went to nationals and visited quite a few top herds when it worked out along the way. And they attention to utter quality and particularly femininity and some of the things that were selected for in the dairy that maybe weren't emphasized in the beef. I feel like that was probably a distinct advantage to me because I was able to take some of those concepts and apply them to a beef cow because there still is a common denominator in some of those maternal characteristics. And one of the first things you might find is when you have somebody that's really, I'm meticulous to the extreme about utter quality. And you might have some people call it a bag. They're probably not a maternal person, but if they call it an utter and they know what the suspensory ligament means and what it does and the attachment and teat size and all those things that learned in the judging side of things, I thought that applying that to the beef herd and really emphasizing the maternal on the other side, that I probably brought in an element from the dairy judging team into the beef side but still keep a beef type but really try to keep that chisel front and that maternal look. So I would say early on those would have been a couple things that would have influenced how I determined the type I liked and once you get them into production, I don't know, those cows find you. You just, when you have a maternal long fronted sharp cow and you drive out there and she's taking care of her calf and she's got the big robust calf, it pretty soon you gravitate to those kinds and those are the ones you keep their daughters. And I guess over time of selection for that, I guess it became kind of a defined stamp of what we select and breed for. - Yeah, indeed. Kelly, with that, I'm gonna kind of veer off script here for a minute. So in visiting with you, I get the impression that you view cattle breeding as more of an art than a science. We're in a time, an era here in the Angus business and even beyond the Angus business, the Seedstock business where it's become more, I guess, science-based, science-oriented. Do you fear that the art of cattle breeding, the art of observation, the art of selection on those, I'm gonna call them intangible traits that you just, or intangible traits is not even a good descriptor. More of a phenotypic traits that you're selecting for. Do you fear that that's going away? - I don't think there's any question that we've lost some of that because it's really easy to follow a script if you learn you get a tutorial which number should be higher low and you can follow that fairly easily, but you know, try to teach somebody what body capacity is and how do we evaluate it and why it's important or or what femininity really is and why that's important or you know masculinity and bowls and breed characters. So some of those keys to you know what I feel like are really important on breeding cattle probably get lost in the new generation selection methods and so as far as breeding being an art I think it is more of an art than a science and not that there isn't scientific tools that are useful and that are helpful because there certainly is and combining both I think is important but having the basics of what makes a really good productive animal and what traits define and usually and predict that you know I think that's that's very relevant to the success of it certainly has been to the success of our breeding program and probably isn't taught or maybe focused on because it's not as quantitative as as a number if you know what I mean. Yeah absolutely. So you've not been anti-science by any stretch of the imagination. In fact you've leaned very heavily into embryo transfer in building your herd, expanding your herd, improving your herd. I know this is always a topic that much of our audience wants to discuss. They want to talk about whether embryo transfer is right for them. Many of them are smaller. Start up breeders, producers and they look at it, they see the expense, they know that it can accelerate progress and it can also accelerate heading in the other direction. So what were the factors surrounding embryo transfer that determined that it was a good direction for you? When we first started I took over the the business from when my father retired in year 2001 so 24 years ago that I was working with him and for him and when they retired we had the opportunity to purchase the top 100 cows from his program, the top 25 heifers and I had been breeding and working with the cattle for years prior to that. So I knew the herd inside and out and was able to select them from a 1200 head plus herd. So that was the beginning of kind of taking the herd to the next level at that point. We couldn't buy all the herd but I could tell at that time there was probably more profit potential in the top 5 for 10% of that herd than there was in the other 90%. So when we took the operation, took rains of the operation my focus was to be really quality driven. So we took those top 100 cows that were selected from a very large herd and took about the top 10 or 12 of those and put those into embryo transplant and that was in the early years of ET and that was to try to build from within without having to go you know capital outlay of just buying more females and so you know by starting with an elite group of females but even taking that a little bit further and taking the you know the top 10% of which would have been the top 10% of an entirely large herd and putting those in embryo transplant we were able to mass multiply the very best producing cows and instead of having one half for potentially every other year through natural breeding you know we were able to have maybe two or five or 10 daughters each year of some of those cows so it really accelerated our progress on getting more daughters of the key producing cows and so it's not without its expense and certainly there were some aches and pains along the way because back in those days it was all conventional ET and of course you know if you've done some of that you know that it can you have to wait till a you know a cab and have a heat cycle and and then if you flush them oftentimes they're going to be delayed coming back to being bred with the rest of the herd and so there was definitely some trade offs but the rewards were certainly greater than than the trade offs as far as just mass multiplying the very best the very best key producers and the ones that are hard to find or hard to afford and being able to mass multiply them so we started ET back then and that would have been kind of the early years we had done just a little bit of embryo transplant before my father retired and then we did quite a bit of it right after that as we were trying to grow the herd but but not really worried about as much growing it in numbers as we were really want to focusing on the quality side of it and so the ET was able to you know just really enhance the top percentages of the cattle that were here existing on the ranch and and we've continued to do it over you know over many years this year or this past year would have probably been the most aggressive I've been on ET we implanted a thousand and thirty embryos in 2024 which is either first or second most we'd ever done you know all the years I've been in business and so that's a big stroke of business and a lot of expense but it's treated us well and I guess as far as giving advice to people if they should do it or shouldn't do it I'm a believer that if you're going to do embryo transplant because of the expense you got to really make sure that the cow you're flushing is worthy of being an embryo donor and that she special enough and also that you're sure that that she's something you want to propagate so that if you do have the investment in embryo transplant you're really producing something that's going to move your herd forward and not just make another number because if it isn't going to be something that's going to really enhance your herd I don't think the cost will justify the means at least that's been my experience. Certainly you mentioned that when you started out it was all conventional ET work and I know that you've transitioned to you're nearly exclusively IVF at this point in time correct. Yes and I mean you know if you have the ability to have conventional embryos or IVF embryos there's still an advantage and conception rate on conventional embryos I think we all know that with the IVF you can create so many more embryos and you can do it at the opportunistic times of the year without affecting the productivity of your herd. For instance I mentioned how many embryos we put in last year but you know all those donors instead of having a bunch of fat staggy open cows around that never really re-enter production the same as they had previous with IVF we can collect those cows while they're pregnant we can collect them after they cab before they've even had a first heat cycle and have these donors all cabing annually here and having a natural calf to pay their way and to pay the bill and to keep them productive so that's probably the game changer for us is as our donors are all having calves in the herd and continuing their record and continuing to earn their keep instead of having a bunch of fat dry cows and usually after you know they've been flush conventionally and they get out of sync with the herd they have to be held over for some certain amount of time in order to get them back into the right cabing sequence and and then usually they become overfat and sometimes the drugs and the hormones that are used in conventional can affect their brisk getting their tail head and just their their femininity and their look and so keeping cows you know productive and from and earning their keep I think that's the game changer on IVF you do sacrifice a little bit of conception rate but but over time I think they've perfected the process enough that we still feel like the results if it's you know if you fall the right recipe and you use the right people that you can still have very acceptable results and you don't compromise you know a natural calf that might potentially have as much value as as a flush that you're trying to create and so that's the reason we went to the you know mostly to the IVF and the only exception if I have a cow maybe that's that that's older you know she's she's to the point where she's no longer going to be a functional cow in the herd because of stifled or age we might send to an ET center and collector throughout the year but typically you know 95% of all of our donor cows are calving you know here every year and and continue to raise the calf that kind of pays their way. Sure thing Kelly I love coming to your annual production sale and we're going to talk about that a little later in the episode but what I probably enjoy more is taking the tour of SAV because you get a real flavor of the direction that you're head and what's important to you genetically and you're able to find some of these up and coming cows in the program and be able to follow along with them as they get progeny that make it to your production sales and I know the tours that you give and you give a lot of them have been very instrumental to your success. Do you ever stop and count how many tours you give annually? I probably haven't actually counted how many we give annually however we you know in the summertime you know honestly we probably two or six days of the week we try not to do it on Sundays and once in a while you have a day off but there's a lot of days you'll have two tours or or sometimes they double up so I would say it would be honestly from the beginning of the summer the first of June until about the end of September when the calves are weaned we usually have a tour here about every day or you know except Sundays and then so about six days a week there's there's someone here and like I said once in a while you'll have a day or two off but and you'll have some days that double up with multiple tours on one day so you know there's always a revolving door of people coming and going which is refreshing because you know we you know we learn a lot from the people that come here too and it's really nice getting an outside perspective on on what people think and see and what they like or appreciate and what the strengths and weaknesses of different things are and the tours have become an important part of our operation it's it's really I think a great way to connect with people and convey what you're doing and why you're doing it and you know seeing as believing if you can see the cattle and first hand and especially when they're in our natural setting in summer pastures and on grass and calves at foot and they're not necessarily dialed up like they were for a sale or or clipped or showcase case, but you still get to see the real heart and soul of a breeding program. I think it's a great way to display it. And many of the herd sires and a lot of the famous AI sires come here for the summer for natural breeding. And that draws quite a few people that want to see those sires. And, you know, most people are shocked that they're even turned out being used. But it's, you know, to me, I guess I think if you have an important bull, the most important thing is for him to be able to work and be a bull. So we typically, the majority of those bulls come here and have bred cows for years and even way back in the day of traveler 004 or final answer or net worth or, you know, Bismarck or resource or re now, a lot of people would just come and they would be amazed to see, you know, bulls that they've heard about, you know, across the world, that they're out, turned out with cows breeding. And so that's, you know, I think it makes fun for people to come and lay eyes on those bulls firsthand and see them in a natural environment. So, you know, we enjoy that. And throughout the winter, we, you know, we have probably less tours. Now that we're getting ready for the bulls sale, you know, we had three today from three different states and two that were, that we knew of and one that showed up on announced. I'm sure you get me near them as well. But, you know, I don't like those Kelly. It's part of what we do because we're given a couple tours and some of us as well, there's somebody sitting down at the sale, bar and waiting for a tour. It's like, well, we had no idea we had another one coming. So we sometimes have some tour guides that aren't necessarily, that wasn't their line of duty that we had planned for the day, but they get, you know, they kind of get indoctrinated into it. And it usually all works out. But yeah, it's something we do. And, you know, it's, it was really a blessing for, you know, us to have people want to come and to see what you're doing. And, you know, sometimes that, you know, like you said, if you got to work to get done, it's, you know, that day off when you don't have anything, it's, well, you got a lot of other stuff to kind of catch up to. So it can be a challenge getting your normal work done sometimes and still, you know, giving ample time to the tours. And so that's a balancing act from time to time. But still, it's always great to have people come. And, and, you know, I was flattered the North Dakota Bureau of Tourism contacted us probably three, four years ago. And they were wanting to put up some displays at the airport and stuff at our sale time. And, I was kind of wondering what the catch was and, and they had indicated at that time that, according to their records, our ranch was the second largest draw of artistate tourism to the state of North Dakota. And next to the Midori musical, I guess, was number one. So I thought that was quite an honor and something that, you know, we were humbled by. And, and so, you know, we're blessed that people want to come and, and hopefully continue to make the kind of quality cattle that will, that'll make them want to come back. Indeed. And I, I don't know how to take that. If you're the second largest draw on North Dakota, either you need to aspire for more and become number one, or we need to reexamine what North Dakota's got going on. Well, probably not a lot compared to a lot of states. So it's probably easier to become number one or number two in this state than it would be most places. But anyway, it was, it was unique to hear that, I guess. So those that have not taken the tour, I mean, I've been blessed. I've, I've gotten a tour of with both Kelly and with Bob Watkins, who we have not mentioned thus far. But I can tell you that the depth of knowledge of individual animals and the depth of information that these guys provide on each animal is absolutely staggering. I mean, I like to think I know a lot about my cows. Oh, for Pete's sake, these guys are over the top. Kelly, how do you manage the process? Remember and recite that information. Maybe the best answer that question is, is I'm kind of got a one track mind. So I don't have much other things clogging up my memory cells. So if you ask me about any other subject, whether it be, you know, sports or hunting or just about any other topic, I might be the least intelligent person you've talked to today. But so all I do is angus. And so I kind of have a lot of that atop of the mind awareness. But part of it, you know, too, is you know, you grow up around the cattle and you knew their mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers. And you know, when you selected them as a replacement and watched them have their first calf and planned every mating you, you know, you learn the pedigrees and you learned what worked and certainly remember what didn't work. And so over time you learn those cows and you learn a multi-generational. And a lot of times you're planning these things in your mind way before you do them. So, you know, then it's just a, you know, it's a challenge of trying to improve or breed something better and then seeing if, you know, if your plan came to fruition or not. You know, also Bob does a great job. He keeps up an outcome record. You know, we started that before he was even here, but on each cow. So every calf she's ever had is on record of, you know, when it was born and what it was sired by and the outcome of that calf and who it sold to and for how much and where. So, you know, we can run a history any time on the cow to see what her production record was and how many daughters are in the herd and how many progeny sold and what their average was. And I use that like when I write footnotes for the catalog. And so when you review that and you see that in print, you know, it reminds you of of which people bought sons of a certain cow and where they all went to. And so I still do our catalog and write the footnotes. And with the records that Bob helps keep up to date on the production summaries of the cows then information just seeing it working with it all the time you learn it and remember it. And of course, anytime you like doing something and you're passionate about it, it's it's easy to remember. It's easy to forget things you don't like and. And so I'm a guru on cattle and pedigrees and my wife will wonder sometimes I can't remember what your daughter was born, but I can remember, you know, exactly how many years of cow was in production and and and that kind of thing. But um, I was going to ask you, do you know Marty's birthday? I do know her birthday, yes. Okay. That one that one I have, but you know, beyond that, I would say it gets pretty slim pickets. Okay. Well, I was worried there. I don't we may have to reprioritize some things. So we've heard a lot about SAV. I want to find out a little bit more about Kelly the person. Are you comfortable if we draw back the curtain a little bit? I think so. Yes. Okay. And I told Kelly, leading up to this interview, if any of these questions are not to his liking, we'll just move right on, but we've got a list of questions here I want to run through. This first question is one that I think about a lot. What does winning look like to you? Well, that's an interesting question. I guess, you know, probably the easiest way to answer that is we're all in business to make a, you know, we've got to make a living here. We don't have any other businesses or enterprises. So whatever to provide a living for our family and our employees, it's all generated through the cattle. So whether you call it a win or not to be sustainable, the ranch needs to be profitable. And you know, we don't do any farming except for raising feed for the livestock and we don't have any other businesses. So when it comes right down to it, you know, having the ranch profitable and the cattle on, you know, earning enough to pay the bills and to keep our family and our employees going. I guess that's, that's a win for the operation. And that can sometimes be a challenge in itself. I mean, we've been blessed to be very successful, but there's also, you know, margins in the livestock industry and probably agriculture in general or slim. And you have to really operate on all the small variables to try to make the wheel go around because you're, you're outlaying cash expenditures for whether's E.T. or feed or bed or advertising or whatever it might be. All year long and generally you have, you know, one main payday throughout the year. So that's a challenge, but it's a win when you can make the wheel go around and and provide, you know, a solvent business and do it, you know, just with the cattle. So I guess that's a win. And you know, the other thing I guess I always consider, I mean, I don't personally do the, you know, the cattle business. If I was just motivated by money, you know, there'd be a lot easier ways I think that you could make money than there is in the, then in the cattle business. So it isn't my particular motivation. It's nice to be successful, but my motivation is more this, the challenge of breeding, you know, really good cattle and trying to make them better and also trying to help people that are involved in the business that invest in your brand, you know, that they're successful with their operations. And so I guess when our customers win, that's when I feel like we really win. I mean, there's nothing more. And I'm sure you see that in your own operation that that motivates me more that when I hear of a customer call and says, Hey, Kelly, I just sold my steers yesterday. And they weighed 662 pounds and they brought 314 a pound, you know, or I sold my commercial heifers and my bread heifers and they brought over three grand and with your genetics. And so those are the big wins for me is when our customers do well that if they do well, we win. And when they win, we win. And you know, we're all in this together. So it's really rewarding to see people do well with your genetics. And, and you know, if you build a brand, you know, the genetics have to live up to the hype and and have to carry on. And so you always hope they do that. And that's the biggest win, I guess, is the success of our customers. And that's where I get the most satisfaction is is helping other people that are in the business, particularly I really enjoy working with young people that are starting in the business. I feel like if you're a good resource to them and really help them, they'll be a lifelong customer and a lifelong supporter of you. On the flip side, I just feel like sometimes rather than you see, you know, people that might be naive into the business and somebody might want to exploit them for for a lot of money or take them down a direction just to sell them something. And, and to me, that's shooting yourself in the foot. If you really work with people that that are passionate and and you give them a chance to build a foundation and work with them doing it, you know, it's really a win for everybody. I think that's really important what you just said there. You helped these young people and they're gonna repay you year after year after year. There's no better feeling at least in my world than when you see that young person that struggles and you're able to give them a little help that takes them to the next level. And with that being said, and I know this is hard, the question I'm gonna ask you, I'm asking you to bowl something that's very broad down to one piece. But what advice would you give younger people that are just starting out? - Well, that's a big subject, but I'd say first off, when you're starting off as a young person, starting with the right foundation. You can't build a house with a faulty foundation and ask a lot of questions and really study your path when you wanna get started. I guess I feel like going the quality driven model is what really was a game changer for us, for our success. And if you're starting off as a young breeder, if it means starting off with two females instead of four or five instead of 10 to get what you really want and something that's truly quality to build upon, I guess I wouldn't be worried about how fast you get big, but really try to be focused on the quality side so that those initial purchases that you do, you don't have to redo them. That's one that gets really expensive. Kind of take calculated risks, but do it in a fashion where you're working with reputable genetics and hopefully align yourself with breeders that are successful or that have been around a while or that you feel like you can judge their character and have established a level of trust with them and work with them because if they've been around a long time and they understand the business, they're gonna wanna work with you and help you build along the way. And I guess when people invest in our brand, I want them to know that if they got a question on feeding or breeding or marketing or flushing or clipping or anything like that, it's bigger small, they can always contact us and they got a lifeline if they need it. And it's that no expense or no obligation and I don't care if it's 10 o'clock at night or if it's on a weekend, if they call, I'll be glad to and I'm sure you get the same thing there at your place all the time. And I'm just glad to help somebody 'cause if I've been in long enough that if it's happened to a cow, I've probably seen it or heard of it. And I might know the remedy or at least might know the outcome. And if I can help somebody in short circuit some of the mistakes and some of the growing pains that we've went through or that I've seen other people go through, I'm just happy to pay that forward to try to help somebody else. And so we try to be very focused on that. But as a young breeder, I think, starting off with somebody that can help guide you but also really being particular on the genetics and making sure that you're starting off on the right path. And if you realize you took a wrong path or you bought a female, you shouldn't have, cut your losses early on and don't try to be a dead horse. And I guess turn around immediately and carefully start over. To me, that's an important thing as a young breeder. Aside from that, being the best version of yourself when you're starting to be a breeder and really learning from people as you go, I feel like I continually learn from people that have come here. And some of the really great breeders that have inspired me, it might just be in little ways. I mean, I would have somebody come years ago and you would know, I'll just give an example. Tony Mays comes to SAV and here he was, a pro football player and he had spent the day with us and he was as humble as any person I had ever met. And there was a lesson and humility from somebody they came here that I remember to this day. And I could give many examples of many different character traits that I've learned from people and picked up. And so I think there's so many great people in the industry and there's a lot that are willing to help you. But if you're, like I said, if you proceed carefully and really seek out the right people, I think that's gonna be a pretty key step to your success. - Isn't that the truth? What you just said, picking up on those key character traits, if you do not have those character traits in the right place and operate with integrity and humility. None of this other stuff matters. You can have the best cows in the world, but you're not gonna go anywhere with your business. So you're absolutely right there, Kelly. I'm sure there's a lot of bad advice you've received over the years. Is there any one specific piece of advice that sticks with you today that you go, "My gosh, that was terrible." - Well, there's hours a few, maybe a few meetings or breeding things that you brought in that you would have did over or would have avoided. I would say probably, as far as that bad advice, just really a void kind of the following the fads because I think that's probably following a fad or getting looped into what's popular. That's probably more often take you down the wrong path than the right path. I mean, I certainly would recommend being open-minded to different thoughts and different bulls and different bloodlines, but certainly never being compromising to what you really feel is true and right. It's easy to fall into the bull, the month club, or kind of the popular trend. And then you're gonna find yourself usually following a trend that's gonna turn to another trend and you're always playing catch up in the meantime. You missed the focal point of your own goals of what you were trying to do. So I guess as far as advice along the way just sorting out the noise, the noise of the industry sometimes and certainly some of the trends or the newest latest greatest thing that's gonna come because usually if you're chasing that or focused on that, you're not focusing on something that's probably quite a bit more important in your real breeding herd that's gonna have more of a long-term effect on it than what you might have got off focus on. So I guess as far as a specific mistake, boy I've made too many of them to probably to know where to mention them, but I do try to learn from them. And the nice thing is, is there was a lot of learning curve. I got to make a lot of mistakes probably at my dad's and at uncle's expenses. I worked with them and for them. So they gave me a lot of responsibility early in life, probably way more than I deserved, but I was able to kind of learn and try some things. And I guess I have to really appreciate the fact that they gave me as much of a leadership role early on. I went to AI school, I think when I was 16 and was breeding about a thousand head, servicing about a thousand head that year or year after and doing most of the matings in some of those weren't probably all the right matings, but I would, again, once you really learn the cows and kind of got indoctrinated into that early on, it helped shape a lot of the decisions I made later on in life. So I guess that I'm forever thankful to for as well. - So you said that we can call you day or night for advice. What keeps you up at night? - Well, I guess I'm one of those persons that's really driven by what I do. So if I'm, you know, it doesn't matter where I'm at, I'm probably thinking about Angus cattle or somebody in the Angus business or what's going on in the Angus business. So, you know, to me, you know, I don't have any other hobbies or any other interests. I mean, and this is not healthy, but, you know, I'm really a one-track mind and I know that wouldn't be a very well-rounded individual, but I don't hunt or fish or golf or I don't own a boat or a camper and I'm not against any of those things. I just don't, you know, I don't do any of them and I wouldn't know how to. And so really my focus is on cattle. So somebody wants to call and talk about cattle or hey, I've got, you know, this problem's going on in my herd or something. I mean, you know, to me, I enjoy that and I enjoy helping people and I really try to make myself available for that, but I'm usually doing something with cattle anyway and so it's not a bother. And I try to, you know, like I said, I try to, you know, to help anyone I can along the way and if they invest in our brand, I mean, I recently had a gentleman, a young man from Canada and he's highly successful and just started with our cattle a number of years ago and his tags have become faded and he wanted me to make his new tags for his herd because he wanted to make sure. And that's probably going extreme on customer service, but just for him, I thought, you know, what, I'm going to write his new tags and I did it, you know, I did. So those are things that, you know, are maybe, maybe you wouldn't be expected to do, but again, it'll mean a lot to him because, you know, he wanted personalized tags for his herd. And so those are just little things you do for people along the way, but. Well, you can work on that all night while you're up. There you go. Yes. I want to jump into the deep recesses of Kelly's mind here. Do you have any insecurities? And if so, does that help drive you? Does that keep the fire stoked? Well, I think, you know, as far as your insecurities, I think we all have them, you know, sometimes to certain degrees. I mean, I, you know, I don't care how many sales you've had. You're still going to, if you don't have butterflies and you're stomach wondering if the sale's going to go good or if anyone's going to show up or all that, you know, that keeps it real. And I still have the butterflies in my stomach. I mean, I hate walking up to the sale block and given that speech, even though I've talked to many of those people all throughout the year, but you know, those kind of things will, the insecurities just because, you know, there's a lot of people, I greatly respect that we do business with. And so you want to make sure that, you know, that you don't disappoint them. And of course, when you build a brand, or you build a program, and we built it at, and have enjoyed a lot of early success, but with that comes high expectations. And so, you know, when people come here, they're not expecting to see an ordinary herd of cattle or an ordinary display. They're expecting something special. And you have to make sure that the cattle can live up to the sale. the hype and that you can make the next calf crop so that it can hopefully compete or surpass the previous one. Those steps of progress were easy early on or much easier, I should say. I mean, you could take a plain Jane cow and made her to net worth, for instance, in one generation, make the animal so much better. And then the next step, you can maybe make it a little better. But as you got to a certain level of quality and cattle, the steps of progress are a lot less because it's easy to take a mediocre cow and turn her into a pretty good one with, you know, with several of the right bulls or the right matings. But once you get into a superior animal, sometimes it's a challenge, David, just not to screw her up. And you hope to just produce a daughter as good as she was. And yet you'd like to make one better. But like, again, when you get to a certain level, the steps of progress are a lot smaller and they're harder to come by because the tools you can pull from to make them better, that there aren't as many there to really move the population. So, you know, you have a lot of expectations on you and with the level of success that we've had, you know, you challenge yourself to continually to provide cattle that are real relevant to your customers, but relevant to the industry and that. So I guess I, you know, I would say that's a challenge more than it is, you know, it's just something that motivates me to, you know, to always work hard and continue to strive to do that. And when you do it, you know, over time and over an extended time period, you have a lot to live up to. So I guess you raise the bar and then you kind of created your own monster if you know what I mean. I do. I know I felt the most pressure right in the midst or right after we have a great sale because I know expectations have been raised and I don't want to disappoint any one who bought that day. The more success you have, I think the more pressure you're under, it's a different pressure than raising enough revenue to pay off the loan. It's a whole different pressure because instead of the banker, you know, you answer to the banker, now you've got to answer to everyone who bought your cattle. That comes with a great deal of responsibility. And with that, I'm going to just guess and I think you'd be unusual here. Do you ever get burned out? Well, I mean, I think there's, I was certainly at the end of the of a long, you know, week or two weeks of clipping to say that I wasn't burned out. I mean, I was so glad to be out today and fresh air instead of in a smoky clipping bar. And so yeah, there's times you get burned out from projects or when you're knee deep in a catalog and writing foot notes, I mean, those things can, you know, they can wear on you after you've done them year after year and the projects are big and so on. So yeah, there's times that you definitely know there's ways you could, there's ways you could spend your time that'd be more enjoyable, but it's part of the process. And I guess anybody that's motivated, you know, probably in any business, they've kind of got their eye in the prize at the end and a goal and a goal post. And they just know the hurdles that you have to go through to get to that goal. So, you know, I know there's work there and, you know, as you get a little bit older, your body feels probably some of the physical work a little bit more than it did 20, 30 years ago. But for the most part, it's still, I enjoy the, I enjoy the physical work probably more than I do the office work. You might think this sounds crazy, but I would, I'd rather clip a bowl and I would write a footnote on a bowl. I get relate. Just just because I, I mean, that's what I like doing. So I've been outdoors person and I, you know, I like doing the physical work and, and I guess it keeps me active and keeps you in shape and I guess there's no better way to, you know, kind of do quality control than being part of it. And, you know, and if you're, you know, might be tired at the end of the day, but if you show it, your crew is, your crew is going to show it too. But if you can stay right with them and be motivated to you clip the last one of the day and, and, and stay to after it, then, you know, then your, your team is kind of right with you because they see you're dedicated to the cause. And, and again, part of it is is, you know, another one of my weaknesses is I am, you said, detail, but probably more, better word would have been meticulous to the extreme because, and everybody that works here knows it, but that's what I expect. And that's just how I am. And, you know, that's a trade I learned too, you know, early on, one of the influential tours that I went on to, probably that really affected even giving tours here as a young man, you know, I toured a lot of places and a lot of cattle operations. And, and the first time I ever went to her bond view farm and canovus, Althacoda and Howard Hillman took me out. And, I mean, and, and you want to talk about manicured pastures and the cows were all clipped and, and, and sorted the size and age. And, and I mean, it was, it was a mind blowing tour. And I just, you know, I had never seen cattle displayed like that or looked like that. And I thought, you know, someday I want to be able to do that. And I, and I want to, you know, try to have it, you know, and, and I made that, you know, a goal. And I, I probably, you know, we, we run enough numbers in enough places. We don't do it like, like he did, but it was something that, you know, it was something that impacted me informed, you know, that, hey, this, this can be done. And this is how it should be done. And, and so, you know, there was interesting things you pick up along the way. That, you know, that, that have really shaped, you know, what we do here, you know, even to this day. But, yeah, as far as burnout, you know, my wife would really like a week of vacation and, and, and, and, you know, she's probably the one that gets the short end of the stick because I, I like what I do. And it's hard to leave because there's either people here or there's cows calving or cows to be bred or there's always something that I'm usually intricately involved with happening. So I, you know, I, I'd say a lot of years I can probably come in on one hand. How many days I'm not on the ranch. And that's not real healthy either. And so she would much rather, you know, have a, have a little bit more time away. And somehow I'd like to figure out how to make that happen. And, and I do have good people working for me. But it's, as you know, it's just such an all inclusive business. And, and when you're working with living breathing animals and, and people that they still like to, you know, have a personal contact with you, it, it does, you know, it does consume a lot of your time. Certainly. With that being said, how do you prioritize what deserves your attention? I wrote down management versus marketing. And this is coming more from, I guess, this is a personal question from me. Okay. Because this is what I struggle with. Just like you said, yeah, we've got footnotes to be written. I'd rather be out with the cows doing something with them. How do you prioritize that? You put together this fantastic catalog. And I, I enjoy reading each and every footnote. But that takes a tremendous amount of time. You're unlike me. I know that you are unlike me because I am, I say I'm a procrastinator. I would prefer to say I work best under pressure. Yes. But I, I know that your preparation is a lot more planned than mine. But how do you balance that? I need to be out managing these cows, making sure that these cows have what they need when they need it versus we've got a marketing plan that we've got to execute. How do you do that? Well, I guess I, I still always feel like the, you know, the cattle or managing the herd, you know, that, that has to come first. And again, that's where I rely on, you know, I've got, I've got some excellent people that work with me and if you line out with, with what kind of they need to do and the certain time of the year like during catalog season, that was probably the only two or three or four weeks where I really don't have as much contact with the cattle as I may be like. I do, and Sunday I get out there and do the checking, but when I'm doing catalog, if I'm out doing the cattle checking and I'm doing the tours all of a sudden, there's never going to be a catalog available for the sale because we just didn't get it off the shelf. And so I, I've got a religiously kind of hammer down and, and stay hidden and just do it. And, and honestly, I, you know, I get some of it done during the day, but there's always so many distractions between calls and people coming in. So I, I really make my best, you know, I don't get much sleep that time of year, but from seven at night, and usually until two in the morning is when I can really hammer out and get a lot done because that's when boys are gone and the ranch is quiet. And, um, usually that's when I can kind of get my, my sale catalog information and stuff put together. So I work a lot kind of long hours at that time of the day. But as far as managing time, I don't know that there is a real secret recipe, um, keeping the cattle healthy and, you know, healthy and, and, and, and dialed in, that's still kind of got to be priority number one. And then, you know, the, the sale stuff is to me, the paperwork and put in a catalog that's a necessary evil, but that, that isn't the part that I, that I enjoy the most by far. I think we've dived deep enough into your mind for now. I want to next find out. I want to look big picture here. Okay. Where do you see the seed stock industry heading in the next five to 10 years? Well, um, I mean, obviously right now, just as an industry, we're an unprecedented times as far as cattle markets and, and probably optimism is, is just crazy. And I don't know, I mean, obviously a part of it is the, the numbers of cattle, you know, inventory down and, and we're in the right time in the cattle cycle. And, you know, regardless which side of the fence you are on, you know, it seemed like after the election, there was just a big burden lifted off of a lot of people's shoulders and like, hey, we're agriculture and, and energy is going to be good for a while and we're going to have, uh, businesses are going to thrive and people all of a sudden they said, hey, I think I want to, you know, I want to work. I want to grow on. It just seemed like a really a big research and optimism. I thought probably in the last month almost like I've never seen it before and, and how long that can continue. I don't know. I mean, every, every cycle that goes up is going to have a down. We know eventually that's going to be here, but, you know, I'd say right now the industry is in such good shape because, you know, the population is growing and, you know, beef demand and popularity is high as has ever been and there's a shortage of supplies. So I think all those things are in our favor. You know, there's there's a lot of foreign obstacles that can come in and throw a curve too. But, you know, I think the industry in general is really in good times and I think that's going to be reflective to the sales that we're going to see all through the spring. And I mean, they were certainly crazy good last fall and it and it seems like we know we need to think it can get any better. The commercial market just continues to climb. I think we gained another $3 yesterday on the market and it just, you know, it's been crazy good. So I guess I hope that people can enjoy the prosperity and also with that be mindful that it won't always be that way so they can put a little bit of the savings on cold storage for a rainy day or for days when the markets aren't quite as good so that they can kind of get through some struggles that might come along the way down the road as well. Are there any emerging trends or technologies that you think can have a really positive impact on the seed stock world? Right now we've got this proliferation of EPDs and indexes and everything is so heavily weighted towards genomics right now. With all that being said, are you excited about this or are you concerned? And do you see any other emerging trends that do excite you? Well, I think one of the things we talked about information I think we all got to remember that EPDs and all the different tools that they were tools to help us breed better cattle and I think all of them can be tools if you need more milk and you have a milk EPD to look at or you need more or less birth or different characteristics. I think you know the idea of having these tools to breed better cattle are important. I think probably the concerning part to me is is some people they've probably bridged the gap and they assume that the EPDs are good that the cattle are good and in a lot of cases that's not the case and then they're not even necessarily functional cattle or cattle that have good feet or good udders or good fertility and and so I think it's still there's always been a correction point to every trend and we're in a data age that's never going to go away and an information age and and all the new tools and technology are great but they still all have to come down at at the end of the day sometimes I think we make breeding cattle too complicated and some of the basics are lost in the shuffle chasing you know kind of the newest latest trend and so I think it's important to try to factor out some of the noise and maybe that's that's hard for for many to draw the line because but Fadzev always came and went and when and usually they get chased to the extreme and when the newest number or the newest value comes on scene and there's a race to have the highest number I don't think that's a healthy way to breed cattle and I think a lot of times it will send kind of you in a topsy turvy and pretty soon you don't have any direction and you're just chasing your tail so you know those are things that you know are probably concerning as you as you look going forward is just maintaining the basics of what makes you know functional productive cattle that are profitable and and not necessarily get lost in the shuffle I think an example of that is I don't know if you want to calm green new deal indexes now all of a sudden there's an eco index that's supposed to you know predict which animal is going to give a little less methane gas off than the next one and you know to me that's a perfect example of of really creating a number to sell a product that really doesn't isn't going to I mean I think anyone that would have much common sense to know that there won't be much relevance and and really what that information is going to do and they're they're not worried about the environment they're worried about selling semen off of a new index and you know to me I think that's exploiting people that maybe don't know or or wouldn't know the difference and I I guess things like that concern me because that's used for marketing and I don't think the reality of it having anything to do with raising good cattle is probably really there but you know again and I don't need to step on any toes but that's just an example of some of the far reaching things that you see coming down the pipeline that to me as a breeder would be concerning especially if somebody is going to to make an investment in genetics or semen based on that and then really losing the focal point of what they should be doing because they've got kind of promoted into a new trendy number if you know what I mean absolutely what's the biggest challenge that SAV faces today oh boy that's a tough one that is a tough one I would say the biggest challenge is just trying to continually enbalancing the herd you know because I said at a certain point you have you know you've got only so many places that you can draw from of of ingredients that you can enhance or herd with and so I think a challenge is always going to be to continually make the move to make the cattle better and again I think it gets more difficult at the higher level the animal the harder they are to replicate or improve upon and so that that's always going to be a challenge and and also probably another challenge is is just keeping the quality of the cattle at the front and center of people's mind that maybe have a tendency to be selecting just off of information rather than real genetic merit and I don't mean to be I'm not against EPDs we've used them since you know every year and we've and we've done you know ultrasounding since the first year came out in 1981 I'm all for all the tools and all the real information we can use to apply for the cattle to try to breed them better but I also you know always consider that hey these are the tools to breed better cattle but you know like who cares how good the tools were to build the shop if the shop didn't turn out good you know and so I think people have to really sit back and look at hey what are we creating and what did we create with these tools and not it be as much about the tools is the product at the end of the day and so that's probably just something I think we all have to be mindful of and certainly is a challenge because we're in a you know we're in a new era and we're in an era probably we're a lot of the young people haven't necessarily learned phenotypic selection and what the traits all are in cattle and how do we evaluate them and how do you even look for them and you know it's hard to make better feed if you don't really know what a perfect foot looks like or or a great utter looks like and some of those things aren't necessarily being taught or conveyed to the new generation cattle and probably like they were in my time you know when we grew up learning about it in 4-H and we learned you know why you needed a certain angle to the shoulder and different different phenotypic traits selection which I think are so important to the industry as far as really productive cattle kind of back to your form-to-function question is you know having the right form is and those are the cattle that are functional and and that part of the breeding is lost and and if it was just a science then the scientists would own all the best cattle and so I still feel like breeding is more of an art than it is a science and so I think we got to keep that in perspective and that that'll be one of the challenges you know because somebody has to teach these people what to look for and you know and and something that was influential to me David is you know when I was 13 years old I was fortunate to attend a seminar of Dr. Fonsma and honestly I was young enough that a lot of it was way over my head but just the you know the influence that that had on me on different phenotypes and what you would breed for and why and and why different traits affect how this animal performs in this environment that was amazing to me and I learned a lot and I said a lot of it I didn't learn because it was over my head but yet it was very influential to me in evaluating cattle and evaluating phenotypes and I think part of that you know has been kind of lost over a generation of breeders and hopefully you know that if we can keep attention to it we can bring some of that back because you know the basics never change and really what commercial cattlemen want or need in a good cow or a good bull that's really never changed I mean it's they want a good easy flushing cow that brings in a big heavy calf every year without having troubles or problems with feet and utters and and rebreed and and bring in a you know a good coupon because they got a big heavy calf and and want a good disposition in the calving barn and those kind of things are all a lot of those things are beyond EPDs you know and to me I guess I call that breeding that's real breeding and that's the real art of breeding that is probably kind of lost in the shuffle and in the modern age to a degree and I think something that is going to be a challenge to keep first and foremost I know you pay a lot of attention to it and and a lot of the people that that follow you on Angus underground are very passionate about phenotype and phenotypic selection and and and that's great to see and I think that's something we just we all need to continue to focus on and probably teach as we pass breeding principles on to the you know to the next generations what has been the most rewarding part of your journey if there is a milestone you know along the way I don't know if I can say there was just specifically one of them it's rewarding obviously when you see cattle from your brand that get used you know around the globe and that would probably be maybe one of the most rewarding parts of the journey is to see you know cattle that you bred and in your brand getting used in other countries and around the world then and you know really having a high influence so I would say that's one of the most rewarding things it's it probably isn't one specific bull as much as it was just a career producing that type and kind of cattle that would have had an impact you know a far reaching impact Kelly I'd love to think that you're going to continue on another 50 years but we have to face reality listen you're the same age as me so I hope we're both around in 50 years having the same discussion but when it's all said done what legacy would you like to lead behind you know if you would obviously love to see your breeding program and brand continue for future generations. you know, if the Lord wills it. And you know, that's, I guess, I think anytime you have your life's work and you have someone to continue it, whether it be here in our family or at this ranch and if that isn't meant to be, then hopefully your genetics and cattle that you develop will go on to multiple other ranches and affect them and their breeding programs and hopefully prosper their customers and their operations. So that's probably the legacy of the cattle and hopefully, you know, beyond the cattle, you know, just the relationships that you make and build. Hopefully they will impact, you know, a lot of the people that you influenced or had an opportunity to interact with and influence them in a positive way and hopefully in a lot of ways, you know, we talked about things by, you know, such as integrity and honesty and just, you know, being the best version of yourself, but also, I've been fortunate to have a strong faith in God and I hope I propel that or convey that as much as I should to other people because I think that's still been a very important thing, you know, my faith and I mean, I still say a prayer over almost every major decision I do and I feel like I've gotten a lot of guidance and a lot of blessings from the Lord that beyond what we deserved and I, you know, I still give a lot of grace and praise to him for that and I guess if, you know, if anything, if you can help bring people, you know, closer to God and also at the same time, you know, build a program and build a cattle and build an industry and keep it heading in the right direction, there's again, I'm probably a series of things that you would, you know, that I would look back on and would say, you know, this is what I would really aspire to do if I was going to say what a legacy is and again, your family, you know, my family is still my greatest legacy even over the cows. They might, they might disagree sometime, but, you know, having, you know, children and grandchildren that you're proud of and that that hopefully will be a positive reflection of your example and your work ethic and that and and so, you know, we're fortunate to have such a, you know, I'm fortunate to have a family that, you know, that I deeply care about and hopefully generations down the road, they'll they can be talking about their great granddad, what he did or or how he affected them and I guess if if there's even a little bit of that, then I feel like we've accomplished a, you know, a life's work here. That'd be a pretty good legacy. Absolutely. So, we've covered all the deep subject. I want to end this portion, this segment with something that I would call fun. Okay. Okay. You may. I've been having fun on the whole time. So, I think it's very much fun, but so Kelly probably doesn't know this about me. There's not too many people in this world that I would put in the same league as me, your host, for classic rock trivia, but I hear through the grapevine that you Kelly may be a worthy foe of mine. So, let's do two things, two things. I'm going to ask you a question. Okay. You might stump me on this more than you think, but I'll try my best. Okay. So, I'm going to ask you a piece of trivia. Are you familiar with the song blinded by the light? Yes. Manford Man's Earthband, right? Yeah. That's that's likely right. I do remember the song. Yes. Well, I think I'm going to stump you then. And by the way, producer Shawna is siding me. She's not liking this. Do you know who actually wrote and originally performed that song? I don't think I'm going to I'm not going to come through for you on this one. I'm disappointed because I know you're a rocker. No. I will say this. The guy's normally pretty well. So when we're in the clipin in the afternoon and everybody's starting to wear it then they'll usually pull out a playlist and they'll have everything from 38 special to ario speed wagon to share to all the all rock stuff. You name it. They'll have it on their Jones yet or whatever it might be. But so I keep up on that just to keep us inspired through the clipping barn. So well, the next time you're in the clipping barn, you can impress those young people. They won't know either of these artists, man for man, nor the original composer of the song was Bruce Springsteen. Okay. How about that? Well, very good. You're as impressed as Shawna is with my my music trivia. So what is something that people would be surprised to learn about you, Kelly? Well, you know, I don't have a really hidden side because I'm pretty black and white. So I don't know if there would be, you know, I'm not sure maybe early on in my career, you know, when when my parents decided to retire at that time, we were, you know, I done some auctioneering prior to that and had done some auctioneering and I enjoyed it. But when it was time to take over the operation, I knew that, you know, I neither either needed to do one or the other because I wasn't going to be successful at both. You know, it was a little bit of a decision, call it tough love, but you know, I grew up in a fairly large family and when we were going to take over the operation, I was real fortunate to have the opportunity to purchase the top cows, which I meant forever grateful because it was the cows that wanted and certainly the ones I needed. But with that also, you know, we were going to take on a huge amount of debt between buying all the equipment and paying for the cows and renting the land and plus operating costs and so we're, you know, we are as a couple, but people might have been surprised, you know, Marty and I were deciding, you know, do we really want to take on this kind of debt and hope we can make it? And I wasn't sure, you know, that we could because we're extremely in debt, but I guess I felt like, or go another route and not take the risk, but I felt like if we did it and failed, at least we tried and if I was scared to try and I would always regret it. So that was probably something maybe a lot of people didn't know about me as, you know, at that stage and that's 25 years ago since we took over the operation now and we were very fortunate and blessed that, you know, that things went as well as they have and over time it became, you know, a very prosperous business, but it did start with humble beginnings and then the first year Marty and I, we were, we didn't have any hired man and for three years after that, there was only one other person that helped us because we were trying to, to make ends meet, to make it work. And so a lot of people probably don't know how we started, but probably starting that way makes you appreciate what you have more and when you work hard for something and you worked hard to earn it, you preserve it and I think I think those are all life lessons that at the time seemed hard, but it really helped define who you were and I think those kind of principles of, you know, for fortunate to be able to give those to our kids and sometimes maybe it is tough love, but it does, I think it does affect who they are and gives them the work ethic to, to go on and be hard working and ambitious and self-sufficient. So that might be something a lot of people didn't know about us, but a little bit of back history there. So you went to auctioneer school, would you care to give us a sample of your chant? Well, I, you know, I guess if I was selling at the Montana sale, I'd probably have to start at 50,000, but I'm 35, 35, 35, 35, 40, I'm at 35,000, now 40, now 45, and 50,000, now 55, 55, 55, 55, and I sold them for 50,000 Montana ranch. I'm gonna tell you what you're hired. Don't tell Roger Jacobs and Dave Mullins, but I think we've got a new auctioneer. You caught me a little off by surprise. I haven't done much of it in, you know, for years, but I did enjoy it and like I said, it would have been a different career path than what I chose, but I'm happy. I'm sure we're happy with the one we did chose and you know, life's always about different journeys, but done. I'm gonna say if this thing is still doesn't work out for you, I think you've got another career waiting. You think so. I do. Yes, yes. So that's a perfect segue, by the way, let's talk about your upcoming sale. Tell us when it is, how many had your selling, some of the sire groups that you're excited about, lay it on us. Sure. Well, our sale is coming up in just about a month. February 8th is our sale date. That will be the 122nd production sale of registered Angus cattle for our family's operation. So I believe it's as long as running pure bread cattle sales there is in the world and we've been just fortunate to continue something that started. I said, well, well, before I was born. And so 122 sales will be the 122nd sale be happening on February 8th. The day preceding, we have an open house, which is really it's more of an event rather than a sale because a lot of people come and it's a great way to make a lot of relationships and seek cattle and visit and socialize. And a lot of camaraderie that happens the day before the sale at the open house. And so we always encourage people if they can to come the day before and have more time to look around and meet and visit with people and make new friends. And a lot of times you can make some relationships or connections that will that will pay or potentially more than pay for what you might even buy that, you know, that next day just in future business or future contacts. And I know you've been here several times, you know, David, where you know, you run in and meet a lot of great people and eventually, you know, you connect with them and they connect with you. And that's what makes the world go around. So that's an exciting part of the sale aside from just the cattle that are selling. We will be selling 522 registered angus, bulls and females that day. So sale starts at 10 in the morning on Saturday, February the 8th and runs all day long. We serve food the morning and all the way through the end of the day. So it's a great social time. There'll be a lot of cattle to see. You know, we've done it for a lot of years. and you know, we may be all say it, but I really feel like the front end of our bull offering this year. We are blessed with this as strong of a front end group of bulls as we've had in a long time, maybe in a decade. And you know, the strength of the bulls isn't probably just in one side groups. It's in several, but really have a key set of bulls. I think that we're going to offer and on the female side, because of the Mount of Embroo transplant, that we've done over the last few years, instead of being stingy on selling daughters of certain cows, we would have daughters of every, you know, I believe every good donor that had one, you know, and usually in every flush, there would be multiple options on the females. So I feel like we've got a really nice offering and, you know, we would sure entertain anybody that has questions to call or visit with us and would love to invite you yourself and Montana Ranch and any of your viewers ship out to the sale and no obligation to buy. Just come and check out the program and be part of the event and see the cattle and we enjoy the business and we'd sure enjoy the opportunity just to get to know you and get to interact with you all. I will tell you, from experience, the hospitality is fantastic. It's second to none. Just like Kelly said, and we have preached this on every episode of Angus Underground, network, network, network. You're only as good as your network. I can tell you from the times I've gone there, the people I've met, some of the greatest, most salt of the earth, genuine people. You'll meet right there at SAV sale and I also want to say you will not find a more impressive set of cattle anywhere, anywhere. I don't care where you go. You're not going to find a more impressive set of cattle. It's always a lot of fun for me, whether I'm in the market or not, just to walk the pins. And you can see the intentionality behind the breeding program with each and every animal. I mean, it's there. Look at the animals, stay the pedigree, and then you'll get a sense of who Kelly Shoff is and what that breeding program is all about. And so the folks that may not have received a catalog in the mail, they can go online to Angus Media, see the catalog there. They can go to your website. It'll be linked or they can pick up the phone and call you and get more information. Now, I want to talk about this just for a second. I run into people all the time. They say, I can't go to Kelly's sale. Are there videos? Is it going to be broadcast on the internet? And you and I have visited briefly about this in the past. Maybe share with our audience why you choose not to video all the cattle and broadcast the sale on the internet. Well, and I wouldn't be opposed to the video of the cattle because if you can't be here, obviously, videos would be your next best. Most years, this year we don't have as many, but most years we're selling 700 head of cattle in early February, and which means the first two weeks of January, we're clipping them. And then you've got to try to figure out when and how you're going to video 700 head of cattle in January in North Dakota when you're dealing with usually storms and subzerre of weather and just the sheer volume of cattle and the weather constraints that you have, a lot of years would make it impossible if or nearly impossible, and not every year, but most years, very challenging to try to just to physically do all that. And as far as why we're not on the internet, maybe we'll be I know right now, according to our our auctioneer, one of our auctioneers, Joe Goggs, where the last man standing as far as any sale he does, where the only one that's not that's not live on the internet. And my wife's thinking out as was if you give people an excuse not to come to North Dakota in February, and they can be in their barcle linger watching the sale on the internet, which path do you think they're going to take? And so part of the reason that we never went on the internet was just to to still have the atmosphere where people come and they see the cattle and they can look in the eye and see who they're bidding against. And you know, there's something about the excitement and the enthusiasm in the barn when you bring that many people, it's like going to a rock concert. Nobody wants to go to a concert where half the seats are empty, but when they can come there and they and they got to push to get in the door and hope they can find a seat. And there's enthusiasm in the air and and the conradery and just their you know, the the old school auction feeling is something that we've tried to preserve and we know probably that's not what's conducive for everybody to come and we lose some people obviously that can't participate if they're not on the internet bidding, but but I guess there's a trade off there and and so we've been fortunate to still usually bring in a large crowd of people because they you know to witness it and to be part of it they have to really be here and and we do provide yummy David if if you you know have somebody that can't come and they they tell us what they're looking for. I mean we do have an order buying service and we we have that set up where it's it's confidential and it's satisfaction guaranteed and we can certainly bid on them and bid on cattle for people and and and fill an order if they can't come so as and and oftentimes I feel like if they do contact us and we know the cattle very well we we might sometimes fill their order with something that matches their needs or or wishes better than if they're just blindly buying on the internet as well. So you know there again at you can see something in a video but you can there's a lot of things you can't see and if somebody calls me and they say Kelly this is what my herd is and this is what I want to do with them. I'll have that individual connection with them and can try to really match the bull that I would select for them based on what they want to do to their herd to improve it you know if they need to add thickness or frame or they need to take away frame or they need to improve feed and different bloodlines and you you kind of have a little bit more individual I guess hands-on relationship with that customer and I think sometimes you can you can probably more properly dial in the right bull for the right customer you know if they contact you rather than doing it on the internet but again so it's exciting place to be here and I guess it's you know you've been here enough to know that when you come you know there's a lot of people that again that are that are usually here that you get to meet socialized with and it makes it an event and and again not being on the internet is probably old school and said one day we might have to cave I don't know how I'm going to figure out how to how you get all that extra project fit in prior to you know this this time of year the days are short and the weather's usually cold and you know like today was windy and snowy and the next couple days the highs zero and and to think about trying to be out there videoing cattle without sun and in that kind of temperature it would be another obstacle but you know if we had a sale on the fall or something where we you know have longer days and you have and you don't have the weather constraints then it would be probably a lot easier for us to adjust to that too or if it was a hundred head sale versus you know versus as many as we sell but those are some of the reasons I guess long story. I think they're compelling reasons I would certainly not advise you to do different than than what you've been doing I mean the proof is in the pudding you've had successful sales there is no substitute when you've got the goods when you've got the kind of cattle that you breed Kelly they need to be seen they need to be seen in person to be fully appreciated so I certainly understand where you're coming from there again I'm going to repeat the details here so please plan to join us for the 120 second shop angus valley sale on February the 8th it begins at 10 a.m. 522 registered angus cattle I can tell you there's something there for everyone and it is a camp miss event I've often said to a lot of folks even if what Kelly's doing is not your cup of tea that is an event you need to see at least once that huge crowd the cattle prepared the way they are I mean it's a first class event so Kelly let's end on one question we've talked since day one on this podcast about being able to sum up your operation concisely your program we called an elevator speech if someone gets on the elevator with you and you're going down 10 floors and they say what do you do what makes you different what makes you special you've got 30 seconds to sell it Kelly what do you say well I would say in 30 seconds that I would try to sum up the two things that we focus on in our breeding program our maternal and performance and try to get the highest level of combination of those two key factors put into one package and do it with a high high level of selection pressure and over multi generations of breeding to try to produce a premium product and produce them in enough volume that we can make them available in price ranges that are affordable to pretty much any cattle person's budget and I probably lost my 30 seconds by now but that would probably be a quick summation yeah I don't have a buzzer but you sold me that's a good elevator speech Kelly's shop great friend master breeder inspiration to all of us thank you for joining us on the English Underground yeah well thank you David for all the kind words and your thoughtful remarks I appreciate it really enjoyed it look forward to catching up with you again you have been listening to the Angus Underground podcast if you have enjoyed this episode head over to where you listen in the podcast to subscribe, rate, and review. Also, check us out on social media and the Angus Underground Community Group on Facebook, where you can interact with fellow breeders. Thank you for listening.