Individualised and effective literacy support- S05E35

0:01 Speaker 1 Hi and thanks for tuning in to Speak Up, Speech Pathology Australia's podcast. Each week we feature an interesting, thought provoking, and clinically relevant conversation to enhance your Speech pathology practice. Let's hear from this week's contributors. 0:18 Speaker 2 Hi and welcome to Speak Up. This is Nadia, and today I'm coming to you from the lands of the Wanderi Wurong and Boon Wurong, people of the Eastern Colon Nation. Today we're going to be having a conversation about reading comprehension and I'm joined by Jenny Baker. Jenny has been working in the area of reading comprehension and written expression for over 30 years. 0:36 Jenny is also one of the directors of Fremantle Speech Pathology Services, which is in Perth and they work with almost exclusively school age children and Jenny also committed to running a workshop for Speech Pathology Australia at the start of November in 2023. 0:50 Speaker 3 Absolutely. And I'm really looking forward to meeting like minded people and sharing evidence based practice ideas, yeah. 0:59 Speaker 2 Brilliant. That's going to be in Victoria and we'll have some more information about that both in the show notes and at the end of that of today. So hi Jenny, welcome. Thanks for being here. 1:09 Speaker 3 Thank you, Nadia. And I'd also like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet and talk today, the Wadja Bora people, and pay my respects to elders past and present. 1:23 Speaker 2 Thank you so much for that. Let's start with just a really simple scene setting question. What do we mean when we say reading comprehension? 1:32 Speaker 3 OK, it's a simple question, but it's got a myriad of complex responses and. You know, every research article I read has a crack at trying to define it in the ultimate way. 1:47 But you know really what it is is reading to make meaning. So when we read, we doing something with that information. It's a process of extracting and constructing, constructing meaning. 2:05 Through involvement with written language rather than oral language, you know, So you can imagine a child sitting in front of a class and the teacher is teaching them about earthquakes and they're going through all the facts about earthquakes about. 2:22 How they occur, what regions they're most likely to occur in, how they're measured, what sort of damage they create, best ways to prevent damage to buildings. So you can listen to all of that information and that's what we call, you know, listening comprehension. 2:41 But you can also read that information, and that's reading comprehension. You can also read to entertain or to to research or to argue a point. So there's a lot of different ways that you can use reading comprehension, but basically it's a process that you embark on when you want to find out something and you do it via the written word rather than the oral word, so. 3:14 It's not complex when you think about it that way, and you really just have to continue to draw on, you know, sense making. When you think about reading comprehension, everyone talks about how complex it is and it really is complex. But when it boils down to it, it's about reading to make meaning. 3:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense as to how the knowledge that you would need to have kind of plays into all of that. Could you talk a little bit more about why knowledge is so critical for reading comprehension? 3:46 Speaker 3 Okay. So because knowledge is ultimately what your. Attempting to acquire. So if I'm reading about earthquakes and I've got to give a presentation on earthquakes, I need to acquire knowledge about them. 4:03 So I need to be able to determine all those facts that I just stated. I need to be able to understand those and explain them in my own words and synthesize that information and prior to that. You know, I I should have some knowledge of earthquakes. 4:22 It's rare that you read something from scratch that you have no prior knowledge about. You know, there's words like crust and mantle in there that you might have a slight sensation of, you know, that, you know, crust might be around the toast, but now you're actually learning about it in terms of, you know, the layer around the world. 4:46 So you've got to bring your background knowledge in of vocabulary and key concepts in order to constantly be updating the facts that you're reading. It's a grueling process, reading for learning, you know. 5:02 You know, we've all we all read research articles. And as soon as we encounter things like acronyms, which are the bane of my life, you know, I, you know, I've got to keep going back and saying what does SLD mean? What does you know DLD mean? 5:17 What does SLI mean, You know? So I'm constantly having to draw my background knowledge of those terms in order to process and understand the research article. And there's no doubt about it. Reading for comprehension for good quality comprehension is grueling. 5:33 So we've got to bring everything that we have to the party in order to not just have a blank slate when we're reading words. We're not just a passive consumer and let the words just wash over us. We're actively and dynamically making networks and drawing on our background knowledge and redefining what we thought we knew about a word. 5:57 Like crust or a word like mantle. You know, we're we're saying, oh, mantle. I always thought it was like, you know, the mantle of the, you know, the mantlepiece above the fire. This is an interesting word. I get that there's some similarities. I get that there's similarities between crust on my toast and crust on the Earth. 6:15 So that's what I mean about the importance of knowledge. And you know, if we're talking about teaching good quality reading comprehension strategies, because reading comprehension is the. End product, it's not the process that we engage in, we engage in a lot of other processes. 6:34 But the end product is good reading comprehension. We understand all about earthquakes and you know and good quality processes need to be, you know, separately addressed in order to. 6:53 To upskill students in the types of behaviors that they need to engage in in order for good quality comprehension to, in fact be, you know, to emerge. 7:05 Speaker 2 And it's such an important skill that if we can instill it appropriately at that young age, it serves us for the rest of our lives. I mean, we all engage in those sorts of things when we're reading for pleasure or if we're reading about what's happening in the world around us. And hopefully it will help us be a more critical consumer of information that we receive. 7:24 Speaker 3 Online as well. Absolutely. I mean, you know, my dad reads the paper to find out interesting facts to ring me about and discuss, you know. So, you know, he's always reading with that in mind. 7:39 Like he's the, you know, he's the lens through which he thinks my world, I learn about my world. You know, little does he know that he's actually not. But you know, yeah. We are always on a quest to acquire knowledge. We go to a movie and then we discuss the, you know, the themes or the plot or the character After we you know, we we got get out of the movie when we're having a drink with our friends. 8:05 It's always about. Talking and interacting and sharing knowledge. That's so it's how it's a fabric of our society. And it's also the way that we learn how to, you know, use more complex, abstract, decontextualized words you know, so you can tell when I'm often teaching a class. 8:27 And a child comes out with a word like harrowing, you know, I said wasn't an experience. Do you think that isn't, you know, the little child from the back corner says, harrowing. I say, where did you get that word from? That's a fantastic word. And she said to me once from the library. And I said, what do you mean from the library? 8:43 And she said, oh, from a book. And I said to her, do you learn many words from books? And she said all the time. And I I like learning words and I try and remember the good ones. You know, said that's a beautiful example of how reading to learn can activate a real interest in knowledge and vocabulary. 9:04 Speaker 2 I think that little one might be a speech pathologist in the making maybe. So everything that we have been doing changes quite regularly in terms of the evidence base and the approaches that we take as well. Can you talk a little bit about some of the approaches to teaching reading comprehension and how that's changed over the last 10 or so years? 9:24 Speaker 3 Sure. Well, like a lot of things like teaching of, you know, reading at word level or spelling, a lot of what goes on has been influenced by commercial text sellers, which is a shocking admission. 9:44 But what what happened in the sort of the 30s and 40s is that, you know, big publishing companies without the research base. Decided to publish workbooks for students and they were things like, you know, texts with some questions related to the text and the questions might be literal and inferential, some, you know, definitional. 10:09 And then the publishers decided to write teacher workbooks to go along with the student workbooks. And then, you know, that kept rolling on and teachers were immersed in the understanding that good teaching of reading comprehension. 10:27 And again, they didn't see it as a product. They saw it as a process. So they thought that good teaching of reading comprehension. Was just giving students texts to read across a whole range of different topics. Earthquakes one day, you know Red crested Robins the next day. 10:44 How to look after goldfish in your home aquarium the next day. So they thought that that. You know, the the job of the teacher was to provide students with copies of these texts that they read silently and then answered the questions. 11:00 And you know, that kind of developed into guided reading and and it had the stamp of approval across the board. But what has happened with the advent of the science of reading, which started its base roots in learning to decode and has now with the help of cognitive science? 11:21 Looked at what is involved in understanding written text, we now know through the research that it's not just as simple as giving kids a multitude of texts and getting them to answer questions, nor teaching them splinter skills like. 11:40 Finding the main idea or predicting or inferencing or compare and contrast reasoning, summarizing. And again that was kind of born out of the questions because they they looked at what are those questions doing? Are these questions are predicting, these are summarizing, these are inferring. 11:58 So they then decided to teach those as kind of siloed skills. One every couple of weeks. But what? Unfortunately, you know, what we know now is that there's no evidence to suggest that teaching, finding the main idea in in text A/B and C will assist. 12:14 With text DE&F. There's absolutely no evidence. And people have devoted weeks and weeks and weeks to that kind of teaching. And unfortunately, it's all unfounded. Some of those strategies are useful. So things like summarizing and teaching inferencing, but within the text that you're working on, not in. 12:37 Text that have nothing to do with one another, that that I just plucked out of the thin air for the sake of needing a text. So we've come a long way and you know and and again I would say, unfortunately, it's harder to teach using the newest evidence about reading comprehension. 12:57 It's a much harder process. It needs big unpacking, and you need to be knowing every syllable that comes out of your mouth. Is a syllable that directs or instructs the students about how to manage this body of text. 13:15 So teachers are very, very accountable and speech pathologists and I'll talk about our role in a minute, but you know, we're very accountable for for how we manage the teaching process and that makes it difficult. 13:30 It's it's hard to do, absolutely. 13:34 Speaker 2 So Jenny, do all children that present with reading problems also have difficulty with comprehension? 13:40 Speaker 3 No, they don't. Typically at the clinic we see hundreds of students a week that come in with reading problems. And there's different profiles now there there are children who've got really good, strong intact listening comprehension, but really weak decoding skills. 14:02 So if you look at those children, they are your typically dyslexic children and all they need. Is to be taught the code to actually be taught to read the words. And as long as you're doing a lot of listening comprehension along the way so that they don't miss out on that really good quality language. 14:22 And they're still doing listening to read alouds and still inferring and questioning the author and dynamically interacting with the text. As long as that's still happening, then as soon as they're reading levels, kick in to A, A, A. 14:38 Sort of a level that they can access text. You've got this beautiful sweet spot of of you know, of a version of marriage of those two. So that's, you know, and that's the most, you know, they've got the most straightforward kind of kids to work with because really you just got to keep one afloat, got to keep that listening comprehension afloat. 14:58 But you're really drilling down using a systematic synthetic phonics program. And decodable books. And you're, you know, pushing those kids through that, the whole scope and sequence of phonics until they get to that point where they can access text. 15:14 And then you get children with, you know, kind of the opposite with reasonable decoding skills. So they can read a list of words, but their ability to process connected text is really, really poor. 15:30 And you'll often find that those students have developmental language disorder, so they've learned the code reasonably well. But you know, they don't understand figurative language. They don't understand, you know, the basics of connectivity. 15:45 They've got very poor word mapping strategies. So their vocabularies are really weak. You know they don't understand. You know, that cumulative nature, They've got poor memories, short term memory, So they read one sentence, then they read sentence B and sentence A has already evaporated. 16:08 So they're constantly having to sort of up, you know, upgrade their thinking. But that takes a huge amount of cognitive energy. And those sort of kids are really difficult to work with. You know, they don't make a lot of progress. 16:24 We know that the gap doesn't close. For those kids, and you know, it's about really teaching them some self teaching skills that will enable them to process text. Even when there's nobody by their side saying, what do you think the author says here, Why do you think the boy is sad there? 16:44 What do you think might happen now? And how does this, this sentence relate to the sentence before you know? So you know, we've almost got to be there. They're sort of super organizing framework system for them. 17:01 Because they don't do that, they don't interact and dynamically digest the text. So we've got to be there sort of you know their organizing system to do that for them and and hopefully kind of gradually. 17:17 Reduce our role in that gradual release of responsibility so that they then become the the the sole person that starts to question what they're reading and monitor their comprehension and paraphrase what they're reading so that they are becoming active and dynamic readers. 17:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, great. Just like with everything else really, isn't that we need to be really specific to the person that's in front of us and meet them where they're at. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the best ways to assess reading comprehension then? 17:50 Speaker 3 Right, So again, plagued with problems and Captain Karma have given us some very interesting information about, you know, the reliability of. Reading comprehension assessments and it's low, it's really low. 18:07 Sometimes there's a 50% chance on some tests that a child will be in the average versus the below average level according to how that assessment is designed. And we've got a whole range of factors that really. 18:24 Play into reading comprehension assessment. You know, are they reading aloud? Are they reading silently? Can I look at the text when they answer questions or not? You know their background knowledge. If they're reading about Rosa Parks and it's an American assessment and they have no understanding of this woman's role in history of African Americans, then they are behind the 8 ball as well. 18:50 You know, it's it's really. Hard to measure a complex set of processes that are occurring internally in a child's head. So if I say to a child, why do you think Sam was unhappy about going camping? 19:10 And he says. Because the sausages might fall on the ground, then you think, well, that's not quite right, you know, he because he wants to be at home with his mates, but maybe, you know, he's had an experience before where he's been barbecuing in the sausage. So all of a sudden you you mark that wrong, you give that zero. 19:30 But then you think, well, how did he get there and you don't have that opportunity to ask. However, we do have to, you know, we do have to make some decisions. And so the test that we use at the clinic is the yacht, the York Assessment for Reading Comprehension. 19:46 It's an Australian Test and you know and it's got, people will probably know it, but it's got. Narrative as well as nonfiction text, which is great. It's got a variety of question levels. 20:02 Read aloud for primary, read silently for high school, timed reading, and then it's got, you know, the best thing of all is that you can put all of that into an online scorer and you get the reports back out for you. 20:19 So we use that, but we also very much. Analyze the behaviors of the child. So did that child just answer those questions from what he thought was his general knowledge about going camping? 20:36 Did that child look back at the text? Did that child not respond? Because that's often. I don't know. Don't know, Don't know because it says in the in the text because the, because the author said so. Those kind of responses. 20:52 So you can glean a lot from what the child got wrong and then address those at A at a sort of an analytical level. But then my advice is to constantly use formative assessment to determine whether your child is understanding about the topic. 21:12 So if you've taught him about earthquakes, then you say let's do a short, fast first writing activity about earthquakes. Or now I want you to write me a story about a family that lives in an area where earthquakes occur quite often. 21:33 I want you to describe the house that they live in and then what it felt like for them when the earthquake began to happen. Then in the middle, while the earthquake is underway, I want you to talk about all the things that occur in that village and then the aftermath, how they clean up and then what lesson they learn in terms of rebuilding, You know, So that book, that written activity will give you a really good sense of, has the child integrated all those facts about earthquakes, and can they rework them into a story, either orally or written, to demonstrate their ability? 22:15 And again, much more complex and difficult to administer than just a standardized test. But you have to be committed to formative assessment. Every time you teach, you test to see whether the child is learning from the strategies that you're providing him or her. 22:34 I want to pick up on some of the things that you've just said there, and I'd really like to see if we can talk a bit more about how writing can assist with reading comprehension, that that writing is really important and really reading and writing should be done together, not just in language arts but across science and has subjects as well. 22:56 Writing is the cementing of reading, and you know so as spelling is the cementing of decoding, you know, David Kilpatrick always says, if you can read a word, there's no guarantee that you can spell it. 23:12 But if you can spell a word, there's a high probability that you'll be able to read it. So. And we know that written expression is the most complex, highest order process of all the literary literacy processes. 23:27 And so getting students to write, even using something like the writing revolution stems where you've got that you know, but because so and you might then just say look after after learning about earthquakes, you might say something like it's important that people living on fault lines design earthquake proof houses because and then yadda yadda yadda so yadda yadda yadda. 23:57 But so just doing that brief sentence stem exercise is enough to just a get students to rethink their knowledge and reformulate it, and B when it's handed up to the teacher, he or she will be able to ascertain whether that knowledge has been delivered or I should should I say, acquired in the way that it was intended to be delivered. 24:29 And so also, you know, writing with scaffolding, right? You know, changing between genres, between a report, a description, a narrative, a poem, you know, they're really important ways of delivering the information, you know, for students to deliver the information that they've understood. 24:51 You know, for me, when I've been researching about reading comprehension and I've, you know, had to make my way through some gnarly research papers, the only way that I can keep buoyant as I'm steeped in new information is to write down what I am learning. 25:15 And, you know, we mustn't kind of ignore those old study skill types of strategies like annotating in the margins, highlighting, transferring information from a text onto a page and calling them study notes. 25:35 They are really vital and really, really important. And you know, if you're studying a text, if you're studying to To Kill A Mockingbird, and you'll have to read that, and then you have to write about the themes. 25:51 You have to do a deep dive into the plot and character of that book and setting in order to understand the key themes that are emerging from that book. So there's no better way to understand the themes from To Kill a Mockingbird than to write a paper outlining the author's themes and how they have developed them. 26:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, great. Thank you. So there's a big role that speech pathologists and teachers would both be playing here. Let's talk a little bit about both of those. But can you start out by telling us a little bit about the best way that speech pathologists can support students reading comprehension. 26:34 Speaker 3 Sure. Well again it's going to be it's not as straightforward as we used to practice. No blanket rules. I put my hand up. I was guilty. I used to buy the commercially available publications and one book was all about inferencing or or one chapter and one chapter was about prediction And you know and the parents thought that was you know the ducks guts as I would photocopy those pages and say to the parents just getting to do you know one or two a week and you know, so I regret that. 27:09 But you know, I know I now know better and I wouldn't do that again. And I really encourage all the speech pathologists in our practice not to undertake those kinds of practices. So what do we do? What do we know now when we understand Scarborough's reading rope and we understand the whole language? 27:30 You know that there's a top, which is all about language and and knowledge. And then there's then there's the bottom of the reading rope, which is all about decoding. And we have absolute roles to play in both of those. But if we're looking at reading comprehension, we must be mindful of all those things that Scarborough outlines in the Reading Rope Hollow. 27:52 Scarborough background knowledge, vocabulary, language structures, verbal reasoning and literacy knowledge. And we know so much about so much of that, particularly things like language structures. 28:07 And again, we can teach children about writing in order to get them to understand about reading. We can teach them to construct sentences with high figurative language, using abstract things like metaphors and similes or alliteration or onomatopoeia to show them how those kinds of language devices work in text to write, and therefore how to read and interpret figurative language. 28:38 We can teach kids about things like lexical cohesion. So good authors will always try to use different subject noun phrases. So if they're writing about something like the great white shark, they'll often use an assortment of synonyms. 28:59 I'll say the great white shark, the apex predator, the man eater, the king of the ocean. And what do children with language disorder think? They think that each one of those is a different. Yeah. Is different. So, you know, even then, when you say it, you know, the great white shark patrols the southern coast of Australia. 29:21 It, you know, what does that refer to? Is it the shark? Is it the the, the coast of Australia? They've got to be able, we've got to teach them about cohesion, lexical cohesion and pronominal cohesion because that that's where kids fall in a hole. 29:38 We've we've got to teach them self teaching concepts because again, we're not always going to be by their side prompting them. We've got to teach them about morphology, you know, etymology. Got to teach them about using context to get best guess words. 29:54 Not to read and guess a word, but to understand the vocabulary. We've got to teach. We've got to liaise very closely with their classroom teachers. There's no point in us giving them a text about how to set up your own home aquarium when they're doing earthquakes at school. 30:14 So you know, and and I I work with older students with, you know, year 11 and 12 students. So all my texts that I work with the students on are texts that they are currently using and investigating in the classroom. 30:29 It makes no sense for me to bring in my own texts when that's the text that is in focus. And it's the same thing for primary age students. Find out what they're learning in science. If it's in magnets, even if it's in maths and it's fractions, you know there's still reading comprehension that can be done when you're looking at problems solving in maths. 30:52 So, and I know that's hard, it's really hard to do to send an e-mail to the teacher and say hey, can I have a copy of your your course outline for the term for house maths and science. You know, often it doesn't get returned in time or, you know, the teacher has written this beautiful course outline, but it gets mixed up because there's sports kind of all got cancelled two weeks in a row, you know, and that sort of stuff happens all the time at school. 31:21 So we've got to be very mindful and very accepting of those sorts of things that occur in schools. But you know my my big take homes are look at the curriculum and look what novel they're studying in language arts, use that novel to extract excerpts for deep, close analysis. 31:45 When they're they are with you. So make every moment of that one hour session once a week that child is with you. Make that connect to the classroom as well. Big ask, I know, but there's just no other option. Really. 32:00 Yeah. 32:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, and look, everyone in practices like that are obviously gonna be time poor. But it's about the fact that that's gonna be far more effective for that individual in the long run than doing something that they then have to work as to how they're gonna connect it to what they're learning as well. 32:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. 32:18 Speaker 2 Sorry. I think there's probably some advantages to being a speech pathologist that naturally goes into a school or works in schools in that setting. But if we are working in a clinic, what are some of the key things that you can do in that situation to help generalize to the classroom? 32:35 Speaker 3 Well, I think that some of the key things that you can do are around vocabulary about self teaching. You know about comprehension monitoring because what you know, what ideally you'd like to do is get in there and say to the teacher, see this kid here, he doesn't process information in the way that those other kids do. 32:56 So for him what she needs to do is, you know, blah blah blah, and that's never going to happen. So, So changing the context that that child learns within is the ideal model for allowing him or her access to knowledge, but that's not going to happen. 33:15 So the next thing you know would be to sit next to that child in every lesson and prompt him or her. And that's not going to happen. So what can we do to generalize? We can equip children with things like QTA, which is questioning the author, a really valid and well researched strategy that children can employ across all different texts. 33:41 And it's basically, am I getting this? What's the author telling me? Why has she introduced this new character? I thought he was that. Now he's this. How come that you know, how come they're going there? I thought that. So it's about teaching kids to dynamic, dynamically interact and engage with the text. 33:59 So modeling that, think aloud that inferring. I wonder why he's sad, you know, on this day when it should be a happy day because it's hit the school carnival and he always wins. I wonder what could be going wrong for him this day, you know, so that think aloud, read aloud, talking about the text, talking about the author's intentions is really vital because that's what we want students to adopt themselves. 34:28 We want an internal voice turned on as they start to read a text to say I want to read this to find out about this boy's best day of his life when he doesn't think he's going to win the, you know, 400 meter running race, but he does. 34:49 So that's what the text is about. So I'm going to really make sure that I understand and evaluate my comprehension all the way through. And that's that internal monologue that you want that student to turn on as soon as they start reading that text. 35:09 And I think that, you know, you know, sort of, you know in, in realistic terms that's what we need to equip students with. 35:18 Speaker 2 Brilliant. Thank you. The last question that I have for you today is just turn that around a little bit and talk a bit about some of the supports that teachers can have regarding supporting students with reading comprehension. 35:31 Speaker 3 Well, I think one of the biggest things for teachers is that they and I and I read a lot. There's a a great Facebook group, good reading science in schools. And I watch that and I watch how teachers have adopted the, the, you know, the science of reading and, you know, researching cognitive science to see how students acquire knowledge and how they do that through written comprehension. 35:59 And, you know, and I take my hat off to these teachers who have really taken these strategies on board. So they, you know, they might be doing a novel for the cold class, you know, slightly complex, really interesting, authentic text that they're using in the classroom. 36:19 And then they've developed like a PowerPoint where they've targeted, you know, prior knowledge, activation, vocabulary, and not just definitions, but constant reviewing of words, putting those words into different contexts, looking up synonyms, writing about those words, writing with those words. 36:42 You know, really pushing those kids to get those words from their passive to their active vocabulary and a whole range of other goals that might be embedded in a terms long read it, read of a novel and by the end, those kids have acquired new concepts, new vocabulary, new ways of processing information, and their oral language is also being stimulated. 37:14 They asked to discuss and explain, and their written language is also being developed. So there's, you know, those good quality programs on in places like reading science in schools on their Facebook group, which unfortunately is going to actually fold soon. 37:33 So my advice to anybody that wants to have a look in the file section for good quality PowerPoints based on novel studies had probably better do it in the next week because I think it's folding before the school holidays. 37:49 What? A shame, I know. It's just, I think it's just overwhelming to manage. Yeah. So, you know, I think the teachers to commit to, even if it's just something like vocabulary in their daily reviews. Review the vocabulary that was introduced into that. 38:06 Read aloud on Monday, review it on Tuesday, do something different with it on Wednesday. Incorporate definitions on Thursday, talk about context on Friday, Get them to write about it the following week. You know, because if they don't learn those words in that context, you've probably missed the opportunity to teach them. 38:27 Speaker 2 Jenny, just before we let you go today, could you just give us a little bit of an overview about what the workshop that you're running in November is going to be about and what sorts of things you're going to talk about? 38:38 Speaker 3 When I come over to Melbourne on the 3rd of November, I'm planning to do a deep dive into some of the things that I've talked about today. So I'm going to do a deep dive into language devices as well as vocabulary, instruction and questioning the author. 38:58 There's so much to cover Nadia. And I just thought rather than just, you know, flashing up phrases and saying do this, do this, do this, do this. My intention is to say there's a myriad of things to do. 39:14 But what looks to be the most effective are these strategies and actually doing a deep dive and really getting the participants to look at texts and look at how question the author can be applied to different texts and engage with them themselves. 39:32 So you know, I know it's going to be a lot of information, but I'm going to try and make it such that people can walk away on the afternoon of that Friday the 3rd of November with a toolbox of things to do with their clients the following week. 39:51 And I think you know, no matter how complex they the topic is, we need to have something to be able to manage. Practically and informatively when we leave the workshop, and that's my intention. 40:09 Speaker 2 Brilliant. That sounds really good. And what we will do is we'll include the link to the workshop that you're running in the show notes. The registrations close on the 27th of October 2023. If you have any questions before or after then for that matter, we'll also include the Learning Hubs e-mail in there. 40:27 So anyone that's listening can have a look at that and have a look at the outline and hopefully sign up and come and see you. You in person sounds like it would be very practical and very valuable. 40:36 Speaker 3 Thank you very much for your time. 40:38 Speaker 2 Well, thanks so much for your time today, Jenny, and make sure you tune in next week for our next conversation. 40:44 Speaker 1 We hope you enjoyed this week's conversation. Please be sure to subscribe or follow the podcast and share it with your colleagues. You can also visit us at speechpathologyaustralia.org dot a U. Thanks for listening and bye for now.