India-Pakistan LOC: When the guns fall silent... and when they don't: In our Defence Ep 02

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(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome, this is Dave Goswami and this is the second episode of In Our Defense with Abhishek Balla. This is a podcast where Abhishek and I, both of us defense nerds kind of just sit in a closed cabin and chat about everything to defense. The idea is to have a very informal chat. The idea is to entertain you, the idea is to inform you as well. And the idea is to break down the world of defense and perhaps ways you never have seen before, right Abhishek? - That's right, Dave and we'll try our best to keep it jargon free, we'll hit off at tangents. I'll try and give anecdotes about my personal stories just to break down things and decode the complex world of defense and military matters. - So Abhishek, I want to talk to you about a movie I watched this weekend, 83. - Oh, I watched it recently as well. - Yeah, yeah, wait, liked it. Even though I mean, obviously I'm not from that generation so I couldn't really get within nostalgia, but it was a good movie. But anyway, the reason I mentioned that is not because not to talk about the movie itself, but there was a scene in the movie just before the day of the final of the day before the 83 World Cup final, where they show an Indian Army post somewhere I'm guessing in the, in the ocean. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can recall that. - Yeah, and there was the javan over there wanted to listen to the commentary of the World Cup final and his commanding officer shout at him saying, "Kee, how can you do that?" - And then moments later apparently, the Pakistan post, I think there was a major over there. He calls up the Indian commanding officer and promises not to fire that dish so that the Indian soldiers can listen to the commentary and peace. - Does that really happen? (laughs) - Very good question. Frankly, I don't know the answer to that, but things are very different from what they were in the 80s. There is definitely more communication today between the two armies, even at the highest level. And there is an understanding that yes, there shouldn't be any shelling and things like that or an escalation, maybe during festivals because there is this tradition of exchanging suites at Devali, new years. So that happens, but sometimes, well, you can't help it, what if there's an infiltration attempt? And if that infiltration attempt is backed by park army regulars, then of course, there will be befitting response, So there is an unwritten rule one can say, but if it's unwritten, then it's certainly not a rule and it can be violated anytime. - Number two, my question was to do more with, what is it, and I promise my listeners that this is eventually getting up to somewhere, but just bear with me for a few moments. My question was to do more with, what is it like to be at a forward post on the LOC where you can see the enemy post literally with your eyes? Maybe it's I'm guessing what, 50, 150 meters up here from you. Very close, they're very close. Some of the posts you can actually see the activities that are happening, the bank opposite you and I have experienced that as well, where I was just doing my piece to camera and suddenly, a young officer came running and said that you are exactly in the line of files. So like, why will they target me, not a soldier? But the idea was that, be safe. Nothing else, you didn't want to scare me out or anything. It's just be safe and follow protocols. So before I begin to answer that question, they've, you know, that how does it feel and how is it to be at a forward location, there are also civilians living there. So it's not just the army. So it's a complete, you know, different life for people who live there and that's why I would like to ask you how far from the mainland have you been to, how much of a remoteness have you seen? Yeah, I would say, yeah, maybe I've been to the hills and then climbed the top, like a particular place over there where people don't journey venture and that's what was your experience? What did you go through? Loneliness, exactly, exactly, isn't it? So just imagine people living their life in that loneliness and that to amid a conflict. See, whatever happens at some of these places, most specifically the line of control because you mentioned 83 movie and, you know, that the reference was to the line of control I'm assuming. So there is life in a conflict zone. There are schools in a conflict zone, which are sheld. So it's not just the life of a soldier, the life of civilians as well. Now my experience of remoteness and loneliness, that I experienced long back in the '90s, when I went for a trek, when I was probably in the 11th standard or something. So we were a bunch of 14, 15 boys and in Nautra kind of that time it was UP. Yeah, that time, probably, yeah. '99, it was '99, maybe just a couple of months old. It was '99. So 15, 16 of us, we climbed a glacier, ahead of Munseyari, I don't know if you know, there's a place called Munseyari in Trakhand. And this was when I was in school. And while we were climbing, we saw ITBP soldiers, coming down, had a chat with them, they shared their meals with us. So that was my first experience of not just loneliness, but also gave me a glimpse into a soldier's life in that loneliness. And back then, the infrastructure was really poor. I mean, it was crippled is an understatement. And these guys walking with their mules. So my first idea of what soldiers life in these places is like was when I was 16-year-old. And since then, I've been fascinated with it and I've been tracking these soldiers in all sorts of places where, obviously, most of the people don't have the privilege to, thanks to my career, thanks to my profile as a reporter, who tracks military and conflict. So at the expense of sounding repetitive, it's a different world altogether. Completely cut off. The priorities are different. They don't relate to the kind of things that we relate to for you. For you, a lonely place is a holiday. For the people there, it's their life. And when people like us go there, non-military civilians coming from the outside world, they expect a lot from us, as well. They want to hear stories from us. They ask us, "Kaski, bhaiya ka bhaiya ka bhaiya ka?" "Eye jo aap ne program shoot kyai ka ham dekhingi." Number, they share their numbers. And it also helps, because outside the military, you have sources, you tip you off many a time when something happens that the military wants to cover up. So in this episode, we are going to talk about much more about all this and in much more detail as we proceed. So the topic obviously should have been kind of clear by now. It's to do with the LOC, that India shares with Pakistan. And more than that, it's to do with what you were referring to conflict and what is known formally as ceasefire violations. A bit of history first, the ceasefire agreement between Indian Pakistan was first signed in November, 2003. It basically, obviously, says the two armies or the two militaries or their respective security forces won't fire at each other, whether it's small arms or motors or bigger guns. However, that ceasefire agreement never really took force, I would say. The LOC was always considered what is, you know, generally known as hot as it was already alive. The ceasefire ceased to exist. Yes. I'll just put it back with. Yeah. But there's an interesting thing that happened last year. And I remember it very vividly, because as a journalist, I was quite taken aback by what happened. And again, for my listeners, you know, my name is Deep Goswami. I'm a senior assistant editor and editor online. And my job sees me in world in the day to day coverage of news. Abhishek, obviously, everyone knows is an editor within your TV. And he covers defense. So anyway, what happened in February last year, Abhishek? And I think it was actually one of your inputs. So we have this. system in our newsroom, software, where all the inputs that you reporters on the ground collect, it comes to us on that particular software. And there was this one line that was flash, I don't remember the line right now, but it had something to do on the lines of India and Pakistan agreed to abide by the ceasefire agreement. A lot of jargon in there. Yeah. It was very weird. So I mean, you are agreeing to follow an agreement that was signed almost a couple of decades ago. So first of all, before we get into the ceasefire thing, tell me about the significance of this February 24th, 2021 agreement. Why was it so important and why did everybody, like I saw it on Twitter, all defensive reporters, including you reacted to it with a lot of serious net as though this is something very important. But I was confused. Why? First of all, Dave, you know, I'm surprised that the guns are silent for over a year now. Yeah. And which is a big deal. Where, you know, for units that are posted right at the LLC, bang at the LLC, if one day would go past without an activity, they would consider themselves lucky. Here we are one year. So why has it happened and there's a lot, lot to discuss. I mean, we might have two, three episodes. If we were to just completely break down why this has happened and how it was made possible. And just sorry to you know, come in there, Abhishek, but just for the listeners to give them some perspective and why, you know, you will keep emphasizing that you're so surprised. I'll just give some data that in 2020, which was just a year before this so-called agreement to agree to follow the agreement was signed, sorry, was agreed to. We saw around 5,000 more than 5,000 incidents of ceasefire violation, this is Indian government data by the way. So it was all time high in the past 20 years, I think. That led to 23, sorry, 36 deaths and injuries of more than nearly 115. And even in the years before that, in 2016, there were 28 violations. In 2017, there were 860 violations. In 2018, there were 1,600 violations. In 2019, there were 3,200 violations. In 2020, like we discussed, there were over 5,000 violations. So this is why Abhishek, I think you were saying, could you have surprised why the ceasefire violation? Yes, yes. And just to add to that data, the latest data that's been presented a few hours back in Parliament today that relates to infiltration. So it's not just the skirmishes between the militaries, because India's big concern has been that, you know, in garb of infiltration, you know, a lot of military activity happens from the Pakistani side. And they abet these infiltrations and sometimes what is called bat action, border action teams, they have, they are a mix of terrorists and Pakami regulars. So all these things happen. And whenever bat action happens, there is this concern of, you know, beheadings, which the army doesn't call beheading, they refer to as, you know, bodies are mutilated. But whenever you hear the term mutilated, be rest assured that it's a case of beheading. So that was just to give a little bit perspective. But latest data, as I was saying, related to infiltrations, 2021, only 34 infiltrations have happened. So this is 34 successful ones. Yeah. This is, that's a gray area, whether it's successful or whether it's an attempted one. Even if you assume that if it's attempted, 34 is still a less number. If you are to take into account, whether 34 have entered 34 individuals have entered, that's also a big draw because if you compare it to other years, to 2017, it was 136. 2018, 143, 2019, 138, not surprised because 2019 was also the obligation of Article 370. Right. In Jamun Kashmir, where obviously, you know, Pakistan tried its best to trigger as much unrest as possible. Also, the fact that Balakot Airstrikes, after Balakot Airstrikes, the militaries had been on the edge, both the militaries and it was a war like situation one could say. We had come very close to, you know, anything happening is one can say so. But anyway, that was that was averted. So things have been silent and now coming to why, why have they been silent, which is very contextual and you know, that's why we are discussing this because we are not discussing this. They've because it's been one year of guns going silent, but what is happening in Pakistan? What gives you a sense of why the Pakistan army was on board and has respected this reiteration of ceasefire? There is political turmoil. As always, you are hearing a lot of utterances from the Pakistani military establishment. Just a few days back, Pakistan army chief, General Bajwa, in his address to the world, you know, when he addresses, when the Pakistan army chief addresses, it's not just to the nation, it's to the world. It's because Pakami generals, you know, they come across as big statesmen, not just a military leader. That's the idea. That's the aura they have. So he also said that they are willing to talk to India, discuss things. And he kind of also reached out to the US, and he reached out to the US as well. So in this context, if one is to take, you know, look back at this decision, mutual decision of last year, it definitely suits both sides. India has realized that contrary to the popular perception that was there in the country, that our real enemy is Pakistan, or Kavibi Khadeer thing. I think as as citizens also we are realizing that Pakistan is not real enemy, we've seen since 2019 where the grave military threat comes from. It comes from China. There is absolutely no doubt about it. And for the first time since the Ladakh Tassal started, everybody started to, you know, was convinced about the fact that while we talk about a two front war and all that and it's, it's our other two and a half as general Ramathis to say, because you're also fighting terrorism, insurgency, not just in Kashmir, but in other parts as well, it, the Indian military was getting stretched. Yeah. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't help us to be active on both the fronts. And it doesn't help Pakistan as well because you know, Pakistan has been taking on a lot of assault from the Baluch liberation army, the insurgency that they are fighting. There have been a lot of casualties in Pakistan. They have this culture of not not making their casualties public, unlike in India where we have a very open and transparent about it, because as a country, as as a people, we want to know because we, we sort of, in this country, we also celebrate martyrdom. I don't like to use the word martyr for soldiers killed in action. And while we are on that, I would like to once again say, they are not martyrs. They are soldiers killed in action. The government has said this many a time on record in parliament also and in various other four, four, a martyr, somebody who's fighting religious cause. So that's, it just came to mind. So because I use the term martyrdom, but the fact is that we celebrate the sacrifices. We don't necessarily moan them. Of course, we grieve them. But we celebrate our sacrifices in this country that people have made. So that's, that's not the case when it comes to, you know, transparency over casualties. Doesn't happen in Pakistan. So coming to the Baluch challenge that the Pakistani forces are facing. It wasn't in their interest also to keep the line of control active and hot. Right. And there's another aspect. Yeah. I was going to come to that actually. Like, you know, there are two more factors to do. Yeah. I want to go. Of course, it's Afghanistan where the US has just left. Yes. And also the fact that both the countries in India and Pakistan are dealing with the post COVID economy right now. Yes. So I think those two factors are also very important in this agreement. Definitely. I mean, and, you know, the pandemic has changed the rules of the game just about everywhere, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, a bit of that, but coming to Afghanistan, you know, while people have been saying that Taliban coming to power in Afghanistan again and Pakistan is happy about it and all of that. My reading is a little different. Pakistan is very watchful of what the Taliban is will be doing. And the reason for that is the Durant line. You know, the disputed border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, another British legacy. Just like every other place in South Asia where the British have left, you know, they've given this legacy to us. Be it the L.O.C. Be it the L.A.C. or be it the Afghanistan Pakistan dividing line. Yeah. So the Durant line Taliban has made certain statements and one was made recently that, you know, they do not accept erection of fences, etc. that the Pakistan, the Pakistanis have done. So a clear hint that, you know, they could be able to stiff going forward. Yeah. So that that that's another reason why we know Pakistan has been occupied on its western front. A lot and it's it will definitely not be in their interests to have an active line of control. And especially the kind of action it was seeing since 2019 and 2020. You know, that that two years had been really, really, really tough. It stretched. both the sides and there was clear realization that, you know, there's no point going forward and back there was a decision to go back to the 2003 ceasefire agreement and the 2003 ceasefire agreement again a bit of context, 2003 ceasefire agreement also happened in similar circumstances. Kargil had happened in 1999. There was a lot of tension that tension was there all over the place, not just in, not just between the militaries, but it was translating into, you know, how people thought about each other because, you know, after '71, no war had happened in 1999, was not a full-fledged war, but it was, it was a fairly stretched and long battle that saw a lot of conventional war fighting if one can see. And also, this was a couple of years after the parliament attack. So, that's what I was coming at. So, 2001 parliament attack happened and after that India really upped the deal. It was called Operation Parakaram. There was mobilization all across. I think almost like a war like that. All across the mobilization was that of a war like situation. And it was not limited to Kashmir or one part of JNK or Kargil where a battle was fought, it was all along the international border. So, there was huge movement, say in Rajasthan in Punjab, where there had been no fighting after '71, there was no tension. So Pakistan also, that time thought that, you know, we are coming very, very close to war, which we were. I've many a times spoken to people who were part of Operation Parakaram. And they say that they had given the ultimate to the families and the friends that expect anything to happen. So, that was the situation. It was a ceasefire, finally, that, you know, resulted in cooling things down and peace return. So, it's those circumstances again, you know, 2019 happened. And then, let me tell Tara, 2019 and 20. So, I think there was realization. Then Lafdaq happened, as I said. So, I think this realization from both the sides that let's get back to basics. Of course, there will be tensions, but if guns are silent, we can take a lot of solace from that. You know, obviously, we want to talk about why the guns did not remain silent, then, after the agreement in 2003. But, you know, first, let's take a quick break. Hello, I'm Raj Changapa from India Today's podcast and your host for Nothing But The Truth. Every week, we will deal with key issues of concern and bring you perspectives and clarity as to why we should matter to you and what is the clear truth that emerges. Welcome back. We are discussing India, Pakistan and the L.O.C., the hot L.O.C, C-Sphere Valetions, etc. With Tavishek Balla. So, Abhishek, obvious question. Why do C-Sphere Valetions happen? And let's not discuss infiltration, because that's the most obvious and very straight forward response. It's like, sometimes firing along the L.O.C. is more of a cover, so that militants enter risk and infiltrate into India. Like, you know, mentioned earlier in the episode where you said, "Agad-Eg didn't be Mandu Knajalty for them, it's a lucky day." Similarly, what I've heard about is the civil and population that lives near these forward posts. There are special bunkers, because C-Sphere Valetions are considered to be so normal, that might as well ensure that they're bunkers so they can run. There are huge shells, you know, it's not just firing of small lungs. Right, right, of course, of course. Yeah. So, with the question being, what was it since 2003 that the firing just continued? Why was there firing? Apart from, like, I said, infiltration. Apart from the fact that, you know, it's to aid infiltration. I know, the other reasons, and one of the most prominent one is infrastructure development. You know, whenever one side sees that the other side is either building new infrastructure, which could either aid in their defenses or aid in their offense. Okay. So, the idea is, let's destroy it. You know, sometimes warnings are given, sometimes they're not given. Many a time, it's an ego battle as well. It's been whom? Between the commanders on the two sides. It's about two individuals. Right, of course. Just two individuals. Nobody else, you know, that was the situation at the LC. And because it's cut off, that's why I keep on, you know, hopping on the fact that areas that are cut off from the mainland, people in Delhi, Bombay, Jaipur, Chandigarh, Bhupal, all our cities or even our villages have no idea about, you know, what's happening there. And this is a war zone until this reiteration of cease fire happened. It was a war zone. This is what a war is. Yeah. You know, that's a war. So, while there was no physical invasion of soldiers going and occupying land. Right. But for all of the practical purposes, it was war. If you open up motars and all of that, even RT has been opened at times, artillery is also happened at times. And I have experienced, you know, on my visits to the LOC, you're sleeping at night and you can hear shelling. So, you know, it was a war zone and I was coming to, I was talking about the ego. So, the ego was that, you know, that's what happens. In fact, during one of my visits, so I visited the unit which had a lot of the posts. Really, I had, you know, even ahead of the fence. Now, I'll explain this fence because what you, you would think that the fence is the LOC. Most people think I would. The fence is the, you said what you said. So, now I'm thinking this sort of a no man's land. No, no, no. So, what has happened is that it's India that has built the fence. Okay. We have made the fence. Right. So, the LOC is actually ahead of the fence. And LOC is, you know, a bit of, again, just to nuance it out, even though that's not the topic of our discussion. But just to give a nuance, why LOC is different from LOC line of actual control? Because when it comes to the LOC, there is an agreement maps have been exchanged. There is an imaginary line on ground that it goes from here. Both agree is the LOC, about 700 plus kilometers. So, both sides agree that this is 700 kilometers plus. And this is where the line line is. Yes. And in the case of LSE, there's a difference. Correct. We say, it's not, China says, it's not, it's not. Right. So, it's ahead of the fence. Even some of the villages are ahead of the fence. Oh, okay. So, India has built the fence saying that boss, this is the last limit. LOC cross-foss, okay, not, he can't look at whatever happens. But this is the last final frontier. Okay. Don't you dare touch this. Right. So, it's just, you know, if one can say mind games. Yeah. And creating that last barrier. So, there is civilian population in many areas living ahead of the fence. So, sometimes this ego battle that I'm saying that, you know, yesterday you did it, so I have to respond. And, you know, in military what happens is you respond in the same language as your adversary. Right. And I for an eye. So, coming to Balakot when we carried out the air read. So, I was, I was speaking to a senior military officer and I asked that what will happen next. He said, they'll hit back in the same manner. Yeah. Yeah. One of the former military, I think chiefs or one of the former left hand generals came on our TV and they said, keep Pakistan had to respond. Yeah. They had no choice. And in the same language. In the same language. They couldn't have, you know, carried out an operation that is done every day, which is normal key, you know, ETGM. Right. Yeah. Right. The missile, Mardi or any rocket. No. It was an air read. You respond with an air read. Yes. So, similar thing, you know, used to happen at the L.O.C. So, today, one post was destroyed. I have to destroy one post of it. Two post seven, so I have to destroy two. He's hit my civilian area. I have to get a civilian area. You know, so it's that, it's that kind of a game and it's a, it's a mind game. And of course, the like any, any war, any conflict, you know, civilians are the biggest casualty. Yeah. Life's tough, difficult. They don't know how to respond. They are bunkers, but sometimes those bunkers are not enough. And, you know, there are a lot of human stories there. And, you know, in my visits there, every time I go there, before going, I used to think it's cackling, that is the same thing. But every time you come up with some new learning. Yeah. And more than new learning, there are new stories. So, during my last visit, which was actually in September 21, to make an assessment of the impact of the reiteration of the cease fire. So, I happened to, you know, interact with a lot of portals. So, a lot of civilian population, you know, one wonders, what do they do? Yeah. So, they're port, they work as portals for the army. Carries are placed here. So, that's their bread and butter, you know, because there is nothing else. So, these young men who are strong, as strong as soldiers, know the lay of the land. So, they're not just portals, they're also their local guides, you know, also sources to, for a lot of information. So, I came across families and portals who were targeted. During these infiltration attempts. So, it wasn't that the attack was on the army and they were specifically targeted. You know, why were they targeted? Because, you know, helping the army. So if you're with the army, they will target you. So these are the kind of things that happened. And you know, I spoke to a lot of people, only earning members of their families, young widows, now they have people who are killed. If not killed, some of them have lost their limbs, not able to do anything, young families, young children, which changing times, you know, they also have aspirations. So they say that we'll send our kids maybe outside, somewhere outside, so that they don't have to live here. So that's the human side of this conflict. And there's a big relief. I can assure you, there's a big relief for those civilians living there. Of course. Because imagine, you know, there is no time for a shell to come. You're cooking at home, you're eating, and suddenly in your backyard, there's a shell. So this makes you wonder. So there are two. Obviously, there are two sides to this. So there's obviously the strategic aspect of, you know, wildering the seas far, which is continuing from like we discussed in filtration attempts to, you know, targeting infrastructure on the opponent side. And like you said, the more, you know, personal aspect of it, where it's to do with the egos of the government. So my, what I'm wondering now is so, okay, that's happening on the ground, that's happening in the heat of the moment over there. But cooler heads obviously exist above the chain. So from 2003 to 2021, when the reiteration of the seas for agreement happened, are you saying that the senior leadership of both the militaries was kind of okay with having a hot LLC? Yeah, I mean, if you look at the history, that's what eventually happened. Since 2003, there wasn't a real, you know, effort in ensuring that the ceasefire exists. I mean, they were not taking it seriously. As I said, the ceasefire cease to exist. And, you know, things actually went towards around 2014, 15. Now, it's difficult to analyze why you can't pinpoint to one particular thing. That's what I'm saying because a lot of times, 2013, I think that much hill beheadings happened if I'm not mistaken. So what happens is, you know, if something just takes one incident of that kind, where things escalate and completely go out of hand. And again, talking of beheadings, as I was saying that, you know, you respond in the same language. So if a beheading is happened, this, I mean, it sounds bad to say that you have to do exactly the same because, you know, you are commanding men, men who are away from their families in tough circumstances. And I keep saying this in discussions on military that army's first fight for their men for each other, for their brethren, then for their officers, then for their battalions, regiments, then for their army and last for the country. Yeah. It's, it's actually very true if you were to look at it practically. Yeah. You will fight for the man standing next to you. You will fight for the man who's willing to take a bullet for you. Yeah. It's as simple as that. So that's why this, this human aspect and, you know, one of one of the focus of our podcast, I would like to reiterate to our audience is the human side of military, be it, you know, happy stuff or even stuff like this. You know, that's right. That's right. Which is not so happy, which makes you wonder. But, you know, again, the human side also talks about the human spirit. Yes. And that's why that's why these things happen. Yeah. I mean, that's why we began with the talk about, you know, what's it like for a soldier to pose it at the, at the, on the front near the L.O.C. So again, so taking this human aspect forward, again, I'm just wondering out loud, two points away. So one, obviously, ceasefire violations have happened only in Jammu and Kashmir. Mostly in Jammu and Kashmir etc. Which is the only part of, I won't say the border because the border has a technical definition to it. But with the boundary with Pakistan, that is manned by army. Sorry, I think I got a bit muddled over there. What I'm trying to say is that the L.O.C. is manned by the army. You know, Punjab, Rajasthan, B.S.F. Do you think there's a difference in the mindset of the Indian army and the B.S.F. That also plays a role in ensuring that violations, if they happen, happen only in Jammu and Kashmir and not along the rest of the boundary. To an extent, because even on those, on the international border, which the I.B., right at the forefront are the Pakistani ranges, which is the equivalent of our border strategy. B.S.F. So yes, there is definitely, you know, the mindset is different. But you also need to understand, why is the army there at the L.O.C. Right in front, it's not, I'm not suggesting that the army is not there on the international border. I mean, if something were to happen, the army is very much there to come in there quickly. But there is a reason why the Indian army and the Pakistan army are 24, 7, 12 months in a year. Are they right at the line of control? Right there. This is the stop of shorting, crossing the L.O.C. if one can say so. So because the dynamics are different at the L.O.C., although, you know, we discussed this a little earlier that the infiltration built and all of that. But the dynamics are different because it's true that, you know, infiltration happens. That infiltration, if successful, can create a lot of mayhem in mainland Kashmir. Yes. So the dynamics are completely different. The dynamics of Kashmir are different from Rajasthan in Punjab, Agujara. So we all know that there is a problem in Kashmir. That's why it, that's why it all boils down to Kashmir, time and again. And also to give a sense of how the L.O.C. actually runs across, you know, it starts from south of the Peeer Punjal range, closer to the Jammu axis. So if you were to land in Jammu, Jammu Airport and move towards the Peeer Punjal range, somewhere around the first, the closest that you will get to the L.O.C. would be areas around Naushera and Rajori. And then it goes up, up, up, you know, so it finally reaches heights up to 15,000, which is Gures, Tundar, you know, real high reaches. So there's a big difference in the terrain. Lower down here, south of Peeer Punjal, it's warm. It's forested in the other parts, you know, the nature plays its part, you know, the winter temperatures dip to -30. There are blizzards, avalanches, though, there are more, you know, challenges. And in those, then the army being there, of course, army has to come to civil aid, you see videos, you know, a pregnant woman being taken to hospital or an old man being taken to hospital. The army is doing that in, you know, sometimes waste lengths. No. So the nature plays its role again, you know, and that's why the challenges are manifold. So that's the situation on the ground that I have noticed. Another human side, something that I noticed, which was a big learning curve, when I actually witnessed a drill in a school. But what if there is a ceasefire violation? Wow. So the kids are actually trained. Wow. You know, how to go about it. There's a protocol. There's a bunker in a school. It's a terrifying. So, you know, these kind of things, so there is a siren, first siren, they get under the desks, second siren, I mean, Khatra Zada, they one by one, somebody supervises and they queue up. They are told not to rush because that could lead to a stampede here. So just gives on shows, you know, what life there could be. And when I was there, it started snowing. So this drill was happening. It's snowing, temperature, sub-zero temperatures. Suddenly they queue up and then they run down to the bunkers that are there. So this is how life there is, you know, these kind of thing. And that's why I'm saying that we're very thankful. And I'm thankful that, you know, people of both sides of the line of control have finally got some much awaited relief. Yeah. And if one were to go back there, they'll say they'll only pray and wish that, you know, this continues. And development work has started. So for example, if a road construction was happening, there would be selling road construction. So it's bad for connectivity. So, you know, simple things, electricity, kaya ni hai, mobile towers, things that we take for granted in our lives, people of that region have been deprived of. Because as I said, it was war. Yeah. We're talking of fresh air Ukraine today, where, you know, we are seeing a lot of conventional war. This was just short of a conventional war that has been happening for years together. Yeah. Other than just crossing over. Yeah, no taking over. Yeah, keeping off. Yeah, land. Yeah. For all practical purposes. So I mean, yeah, stories like these that really underline why what happened last year as in the reiteration of disease for agreement is so important. And honestly, I can't think of a better way to end this episode but I do have one more question and it's kind of do with my, the question that I began with, you don't take the bait back then, I hope you will now. So, sort of a light question. So, the C-Sphere re-iteration of the C-Sphere agreement that happened on February 24, 2021 happened after the DGMOs of the two militaries, which is directed general of military operations, spoke on the special hotline that India and Pakistan military have, where I'm guessing basically you can just pick up the phone and somebody has two ones that are the other end. No, there's a protocol, there's a fixed day, but so my question was formal kind of was kind of to do with the 83 question all over again. So, what happens on these calls? Because, you know, I. No, at that level, see, at the DGMO level, is there some aggression in the voice? Is there a gruff talk between them? At the DGMO level, it's very, very formal and one can say, most of it is scripted, you read out from a statement that is given to you. And depending on the situation, depending on the messaging that you want to put across, the language can be aggressive, it's not that, you know, it's all good stuff and happy stuff. At times, it can be aggressive and it can happen from both sides. Yeah. So, it's not just, you know, exchanging greetings or something like that. At about, see, the DGMO is a three star, it's a left and general rank officer. Yeah. So, there's a certain gravitas that the position brings to the table. So, they also know, you know, where to draw the line. There are younger commanders for all of that. No, there are people to take care of the sledgeing. If one, you know, Dhoni did not sledge. No, he had others to sledge for him. To do it. For him, yeah. So, similarly, but, you know, commanders are different. At Na Dada Denguli was master at sledgeing, even as a captain. So, leaders are different. No leader is exactly the same. While they are there, there are doctrines of leadership and all of that, that military officers are talked about. But at the end of the day, it's a different human mind that's up there for every individual. Yeah. And everyone behaves differently. That's why. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Abhishek. And I, you know, we don't really get to it, but I don't think that needs to be explored even right now. What's going on Pakistan? I still hope and think that there's agreement to agree with the cease-fire agreement over the last. But final thoughts on that. What do you think may happen with the turmoil going on in Pakistan? Again, again, once again, like the reiteration of the ceasefire that is finally happening, I would like to reiterate that we are discussing this because of what's happening in Pakistan. It's not something that we are discussing out of the blue because there is a lot happening in Pakistan. And like always, the Pakistani army plays a very important role in decision making. Hence this discussion that if there were to be a change in God in Pakistan, how important a role with the army play in our last episode, we discussed only military coups etc. And my take was and I still, I'm still maintaining that we are unlikely to see a coup. But at the same time, what role does the army play is going to be an interesting one because the sense that we are getting now, although there is a divided house as far as experts are concerned, some are saying that the army is completely pulling out of it, some are saying that they're testing waters. The initial reaction was it was orchestrated by the army. So I think the Pakistani army is keeping us guessing which is very different from the previous times whenever there has been political instability. And in that backdrop, whatever happens at the line of control becomes very, very important because we are yet to see what exact stand the Pakistani army is going to take. And what is the future of Pakistan's politics because whatever is the future of Pakistan's politics will have a direct impact on subjects like Kashmir and more importantly, activities at the line of control. Yeah, but I mean after the stories you just told us, I really hope this sees by last this time around. Thanks Abhishek, lovely discussion. And for our listeners, I would just want to give a special shout out to a producer, a man or sound mixer. And after he is a producer and a couple they've saying is our sound mixer. They are voices you won't hear on this podcast, but trust me, they are the reason why we are here. Exactly, they are the reason why we are and they are the reason how we are here and are able to do what we are doing. So a special thanks to them as well. And that's it for this week's defense dose. For more news from the world of defense, tune in next week till then be safe and make sure you don't cross any international borders without a passport. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye. See you next week. See you. [Music]