Inclusivity and Good Practice in the Catholic Religious Education Classroom

Welcome everyone to our first episode of Conversations in the Classroom, and I'm joined here by Dr. Elaine Mann, and Elaine wants to talk to us a little bit about inclusion and interreligious dialogue and I suppose the diversity from the lived reality in the classroom. So just on that note, would you like to introduce yourself, Elaine, to a sort of list answer? Yeah, great. I forgot I had a doctorate, so my kid's just called me Miss Mahan in school. So yeah, my primary school teacher, I spent about 10 years outside the classroom working kind of in different roles in the area of religious education, I worked and grow in love and a few other bits and pieces, but back now in the classroom where I belong, so I teach in and all boys primary school, I teach six class at the moment, I've tend to be in the senior end of the primary school, so my speciality is kind of third to sixth, and yeah, 28 great boys this year, and a nice diverse mix, I spent the first part of my career, I spent teaching in a desk one band one school and that had lots of opportunities and lots of challenges, but diversity wasn't really one of them, and most of our kids were kind of, were Catholic anyway in religious background, the schools that I'm teaching in now for the last few years it's quite a diverse school, we have about a third of our population of our school population aren't Catholic, and so it's been interesting for me even transitioning, kind of known the theory of kind of inclusion, particularly in religious education, and then kind of living it out then and putting into practice those things that I preached, so that's what I'm doing at the moment, so it's good, it's a nice good challenge, it is, that's a big big shift from the school types even, I wasn't just even the type of diversity you're saying, and it was like I flagged with the students previously as well, and I know you well, and it really, really brilliantly, the segment of the booklet, just for everyone knows, was a land on an awful lot of research that's involved in the sharing best practice on inclusion booklet by the CSP that I have open on loopfreed to read, but even in that section that a land is contributed to in it, she really said inclusion isn't just something about religion either, we've tended to narrow the focus on inclusion sometimes in our history and talking about inclusion to be something specifically about religious identity and cultural identity, but as you're saying there, you were in a Danish school, I was at part, there was another wider bracket of inclusion going on there, you've been in the school and different demands by the imagined. I find as well, you know, even in terms of different special needs, just in terms of difference, there's so much to do with inclusion, so children who are on AST spectrum, you know, I have a boy in my class this year who is Dan Syndrome and, you know, ensuring his full inclusion in everything that we do, and again, also in religious education, but not just in that, making the boys aware, it's interesting when you come from a Danish one school and you live in kind of that situation of poverty and disadvantage and intergenerational unemployment and then you come to a more middle class school, just even raising the consciousness of my boys that, you know, there are children living 15 miles away who literally don't have enough to eat today. And so, yeah, kind of broadening that out of just if you say, we can maybe be too hard on ourselves in terms of religious education and say, you know, such a long way to go in terms of including kids of different faiths, but it's really of hiding awareness for all of our kids about all the difference that's out there. Yeah, and I think that's really interesting because John Lake you're saying it's not just in our area and it's the wider curriculum as well, but I think it's also that kind of the context as well, it's a Catholic school you're working in. We're back against that to the Catholic ethos and what's it mean across the whole curriculum and how we actually be in the school and interact with each other and accommodate that difference and engage with that diversity because no coming from that Christian perspective and that Catholic perspective includes really is a central tenement of Catholicism, it's for salvation for all, all of us are having created the image and likeness of God that innate dignity in a person and that I suppose I suppose that all of us thought that was interesting aspect. I remember in CPSMA before a query coming in about a student actually, you might have actually said this before, but I assume John would have an issue with a student in school and they were looking at this very action. So, what about expelling the child or what are we going to do which I would have been a repeat offender, that's it, it was a very challenging situation and the actual principle asked one of the representatives of CPSMA but how would I actually, how can I approach this from the ethos of my school, where's the element of mercy, to where's the element of mercy, and for me it was kind of one of those things because we tend to think about ethos just kind of to our average very abstract concept to look at the way that's aspirational and kind of superimposed and what I do is teach for this thing. But it was one of those really examples of the practicalities the ethos of something that's really actually lived out in the school and to kind of manifest it differently. Totally, and it's one of the, you know, I'd use ethos daily with my boys and again, so I have 28 boys and eight of them aren't Catholic and six of them aren't Christian. So, it's, you know, I would still use it with them with all of my boys, well, we're in a Catholic school and how would Jesus want us to respond to this situation? And, you know, you'd use that as kind of a collective for the class, not to, not include those boys who aren't Christian, but to be really confident about how we are, who we are, and then how we should act out of that. Like the discipline one is really interesting because there's an argument that in a Catholic school, exclusion or, you know, so, expulsion should never be on the menu because nobody is beyond redemption. And again, like we do set in the class a lot about forgiveness, about understanding, about saying sorry, you know, I say sorry a lot in my classroom, you know, I'm sorry that I freaked out that you didn't have your homework done for the 15th day in a row. Can you see that's really frustrating for me, but I, you know, shouldn't have got quite so upset about it. So, you know, let's agree to start again or whatever it is. I think modeling those kind of principles for our kids and admitting that we make mistakes and that we find things difficult as well, particularly in this kind of COVID thing, you know, I command and I save the boys, you know, I'm having a tough day now. I'm dealing with all of this level five stuff and I didn't have my coffee. And they, you know, they'd be encouraging me to go to the staff room to relax for a minute and then to come back. And I think all that is us, you know, all that is kind of all that is generosity, all that is understanding. And I would explain it to them in those terms. Yeah, it's always very human, isn't it? Like, it's not about being a person really. Yeah. And I suppose I think that's, isn't it? Would you find, like, just even seen that sent in the scene in your school, like, you're sending her, you're in a Catholic school, right? There's a total of those of the school community, you're saying, you're non-Captic. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's a significant portion, like, within it, like, what would be a contradiction? You consider that, like, a Catholic school, you know, all the traditional kind of classroom, all Catholics in the class, all this kind of story. But I think even that human dimension is really important. It's, I imagine, in the way you address inclusions and you're dealing with the person rather than, so you're starting to force with the person. I'm kind of moving out. That's true. Exactly. And, you know, it's one of the things that I think we've been slow to do. It's just like to recognize difference, to recognize that the, that these boys come from a different religious tradition, but I always, I always frame that in the context that we are all different. So, I have green eyes, you have brown eyes, you believe in ghosts, I don't, and you believe this, I believe that, and it just so happens that Muhammad believes this, and I believe that. So, and I think making that very obvious and explicit, and again, using, you know, examples of people's different learning styles are of their kind of learning differences, you know, you'd say, well, some of us find it difficult to concentrate, some of us find schoolwork really easy. And yeah, just humanizing it, that we're all different and there are religious differences, just one aspect of our difference, because there's a million ways in which we're different. I'm being confident enough to name religious difference as being among those differences. I remember when I used to be a diocesan advisor in Dublin, and when, you know, our job is to visit schools and kind of support teachers to teach religious education. And when I came into the classroom, the teacher, often genuinely trying to be sensitive, would whisper to me in Irish, the names of the children who weren't Catholic, just to give me the heads off, so that I wouldn't be embarrassed, and they wouldn't be embarrassed. And I would always make a point of introducing myself, and to say, you know, I understand that some of you are in Catholic or anti-Christian, but, you know, I welcome you to take part in this conversation as well. And again, I think, you know, when you have a class, perhaps particularly where I teach in fairness in the senior end of things, I would always have a conversation with my kids privately, as well as publicly, about the their religious beliefs. So I found some of the kids that I teach are almost evangelical of their faith. So I've had some Muslim kids who are really happy to share. This is what we do. Let me teach you some Arabic. They bring in their prayer mat far as they bring in their Koran. They show us where to put it, or pay above all the other books when they're storing it, all of these things. And that's wonderful. I've had other kids in my class who are Muslim who really do not want to talk about their difference. And I leave that at that. That is perfectly acceptable. So I think, yeah, it's about dealing with humans on whatever level they're at. Similarly, I have Catholic boys who don't want to talk about God either. And I have Catholic boys who don't go to mass. That's a vast majority of them. And so really, they don't actually have a whole lot of religious experience to share with me. And similarly, just because, like ever Hindu boy this year, and I said to him, maybe around Diwali, we do something. He's like, do I? I didn't have a clue. [LAUGHTER] There's no perfect recipe for your dealing with whatever is there in front of you. I'm including them to whatever extent that they're happy to be included. So it's a tricky one. But again, it's only tricky. I think if we don't approach it kind of confidently, knowing ourselves, this is something that I can deal with. And this is not something that I need to be afraid of. And again, we're modeling that for our kids, that this is something I'm going to approach openly. And I'm probably going to make a mistake and pronounce something incorrectly, or I'm going to suggest something to you about your religious tradition. And you're going to tell me I'm wrong. And that's OK, because I'm going to learn. So yeah, I think the openness is so important. Just not to be afraid of it. That's brilliant, because I think you're really an interesting one there when you're saying about having confidence to recognize difference. Because if you can't have inclusion without a recognition of difference, otherwise, what are you including? Or what are you trying to accommodate? What are you trying to facilitate or nurture in the class? Are you not really even given individuals the respect under own agency and autonomy of where they're at? But even-- have you found like-- it's really interesting that the way the dynamic is suggested there, but you don't have a private conversation on the public. And Joe, maybe it's a classroom-wide conversation. But I think it's a really interesting point there as it was when you came in as a DA. [LAUGHS] And you got that kind of whisper-in, so that all push, which is interesting, because I actually shared the figures with students about-- that study that was done in the art space just over the next six, about 92 across 92 schools. There was 100 nationalities, 28 different religions present in the school. But yet, you could see there was an instance of your experience going into a school where there was non-captic stare. It was-- and how it was being dealt with wouldn't have been necessarily the way you would have approached it. But as far as-- in the school-- like in your school, no, is there a particular policy around in place, around R.E. and inclusion or the joy of it in your school? There is. There is. Yeah, there is. But you know, like, policies are great. They're great. And they sit lovely on shelves. They hold books up. And they do all kinds of great things. But again, each teacher has to take the policy and say, you know, what does this actually mean for me and my classroom? And again, how confident am I to do that? So policies, again, like, they're really set out, maybe, the gold standard, what we really want to do. But they have to be accompanied then by people who are going to journey with everybody to kind of bring them to where that is. So we do have a policy-- I do have a policy document. And again, there would be one on inclusion. And then there would be one on religious education. And then somewhere within that religious education, one, there would be, you know, a part on inclusion. It's one of the things, you know, that can be difficult to stay around growing love. So growing love, where it does look at different religions, it really focuses on the monotheistic religion. As the curriculum does, really focus on the monotheistic religions. So I think even in terms of-- so you can go so far and kind of recognizing-- and that's really where our policies would focus on. Kind of recognizing difference, respecting difference. Perhaps though we need to go a little step further, just in terms of educating, so that our kids can understand a little bit more. We don't want to, you know, overdo that. And perhaps there's an argument that that's where a post-prime recon's in. But I think it's one of the things that maybe is lacking-- is educating into or educating a Bay, which are least those kind of differences that we see around us. So that's one of the things that probably isn't in our policy framework. And, you know, I just query whether or not we could perhaps be doing a little bit more of us. Brilliant, Jose. And that's a good point on policy. I think it's also interesting there. Just to unpack that for the students. When you're speaking of monotheistic faiths, you're talking about belief in one God, religiously one. And particularly within the curriculum, we're talking about the Abrahamic faiths. So you're talking about Christianity, Judaism, and that's the key ones there. So Buddhism, Hinduism, was it a profusionism? And any of these other, I think they're not part and parcel with the curriculum. I think it's really important, I mean, the census would tell us this, right? Like a really important, large cohort at the moment is the nuns, not the NU end, N-O-N-E. So I've a lot of the N-O-N-E's in my class, you know? And yeah, yeah, I'm telling that. So these kids, I have a couple of kids who weren't baptized. But I do really great, interesting, intelligent boys who are baptized, I saw a confirmation class. And I had this class last year as well. And who in fifth class said to me, "No, I'm not going to be making my confirmation next year." And my instinct was to say, "Yes, you are." But I did it, and I said, you know, whatever good teacher says, "Oh, to give myself some time to kind of formulate an articulate response." And you know, I said, "Why is that?" And they came to be separately at different times. And I don't think one knew the other was talking to me about it. And they're just, I just don't believe any of us, you know? And we don't, I've never been to church, you know? And one of them, I know, said to me, "No, they're all Christmas or anything." Like we don't do, like we don't have anything. - Yeah. - I just, like, I just don't be the point, you know, in doing this thing. And again, so I've had another two boys who are in baptized or anything. And just to acknowledge that as well. That they don't have a faith tradition. And again, but that's okay. That's actually a trickier one for me. And one that I have to just be careful around and not insinuate that they're lacking something because they don't have a tradition and put to acknowledge it. So where I've, I don't know, maybe more successfully, I won't tell you all the bad examples, but where I've done it more successfully is around Christmas. So I'd be keen to get them to tell us how they celebrate Christmas in a non-religious way, which isn't actually very different to how the rest of them celebrate Christmas, except they probably might throw in a crib or a mask. But I'd say, like, also for you who, you know, for you, Christmas isn't, you know, a celebration of the birth of Jesus. So how is it a celebration? And it's, you know, all the usual presents and, you know, everything else. - Yeah. - And for family. - Yeah, exactly. So it's harder for me, and maybe it's just something I have to, I haven't practiced enough. I find it a little bit more difficult and to kind of include those boys in a, in religious education and in the framework of belief that non-belief is part of that, you know? - Yeah. And do you find the challenge because you're a component from a faith perspective or yourself or do you find it just at the program? Do you find it yourself or do you find it the program or is it a combination of the two, you know? Is it a. - No, you know, I find my, I find the program helpful. I find a role of helpful in that it's a program based on experience, right? So like, certainly some parts in every lesson, every child will be able to tune in. So at the end of last year, even though it was online because we were cold, but you know, I asked my boys about their best memory from a variety of subject areas. One of them was religious education, what's your best memory? And they talked about the most random at the parable of the workers in the vineyard, right? Camera. Because we had done this drama around the parable of the workers in the vineyard and every single boy took part because it was just a story. A story had happened to be a story that Jesus felt could have been a story. And so in the parable, there's a number of groups of workers and very basically they all get paid the same amount even though they all do different levels of work. And my boys got really into this lesson and was this just, was this fair? If you do more work, should you not get more money? And I suppose what Jesus was trying to teach was that like God is generous to everybody and more maybe comprehensively those who are first shall be last and those who are last year's first. But all of my boys took part in that. And they all had that sense of justice for the guys who had worked longer and the desire to be generous. So that was a very basic foundation of justice, which all of my boys had, regardless of their religious tradition are known. So in that way, everybody could get involved in the program, in fact, facilitated everybody's involvement in it. It's just the next part then. So when I'm taking a religious meaning out of that, can I help my boys who don't have a faith tradition to still take a meaning out of it about generosity and fairness? So again, I'm giving you a good example of where they did that for themselves. They said, well, maybe in my life I can be more generous, more fair, more just whatever, with a reference to a religious of faith tradition. So again, that was a good example of where the program helped me do that. But that's not going to be possible. Like we do less than a baptism. What are you going to do? Yeah, yeah, of course. And I suppose that's the interesting thing. You feel like they're like all your students participated in the program. So like I flagged to support the whole learning about learning into learning from John that those three to them, those, those, those trees they were there was guys that were operating in Cactiquary. But I suppose have you had any students, you know, completely opt out like there, John? Well, like you have a tour of the students, tour the students in your school, or not. Have you experienced any students who are young, be it different religions or known, have experience, experience. They said, John, I don't want them to take part in the class. And even in that situation, have you found it hard to talk, carry out the lesson without the other, without really trying not to exclude the others that student explicitly, but also then maybe, if often heard had situations or heard about the student who was supposed to opt out with nearly the most enthusiastic lesson class, okay, no, you're trying to, John, marry style. Yeah, I suppose taking for granted, like I flagged the students already, taking for granted, that even if someone does opt out, they will have already declined opt out, they will be tasked to the school. So they're still going to encounter religion in some capacity. Yeah. But within that rree class, like so you had a class there where you had all the students partake and on job from different faiths. And this question I'd like to address, even again, in a second, John, do you have any order of Christian denominations in your class? And how does that work, John? Yeah, I'll just leave it there just in the general sense. How do have you and any bad experience, good experiences, and what would you suggest, John? So I've never had a child, and I understand this happens. I just personally have never had a parent or a child come to me and say, I don't want them doing anything, anything, anything, anything. Generally, again, in the senior end of the primary school, so again, you're introducing this in terms of the ethos of your class, which I've already said out, I'd be very open about difference. I'd always have had, like within the first week a conversation with these boys, and we come to an understanding very early on. So I would always say to them, if there's something we're discussing or whatever, you're always welcome to take part, and I would always say, if you're not comfortable to take part or even to listen, what would you do at that stage? So again, senior primary school, third to sixth, I'd say, I read my book, I draw, I'd write whatever. So I would always give them that option. And sometimes when I say, okay, we're going to, we're going to do our own love, I notice them because it's of interest to me, and they'll sit and wait, and they'll see how religious this lesson is going to be. And if I start by saying in the church, we believe they'll just take their book out. But if I say, well, today we're going to talk about what's fair, and what's just, and what's generous, they'll sit and listen for a while. So again, when you're operating out of a classroom ethos that is welcoming and open and inclusive, and I'm not suggesting I do it right all the time because I don't, and I've, you know, put my foot in at loads of times, but where your operate now to that, even when you're putting your foot in this, they forgive you because they know that you're, you're just trying to be inclusive and you're trying to, trying to be supportive of where they are. I'm trying to, you know, to have them involved as much as they're, you know, happy and able to. So I can think of this one example where at this boy in my class, in my old school, and I love the bones when we're just great at Muslim boy, and more and more than one occasion, I would ask my class, again, all Catholic at that stage, apart from him one year. And I'd say, you know, how many gospels are there? And his would be the first hand up. And this kind of became a joke between he and I. And, you know, after class, I'd say to him, can you believe that the Muslim boy was the only boy with this hand up when I asked for the four gospels? And he'd be like, miss, you've got to teach these guys better, you know, like they don't know anything, you know? How would they ever learn the Quran, you know? And so I remember another time being when you talked about Christian denominations, I remember being in a school, an extremely diverse school. I think at the time price itself had been one of the most diverse schools in kind of one of these new areas in Dublin. And I said to the class talking, it was a confirmation class, I said, you know, where would we find the story of Pentecost? And one of the boys put up his hands, and he says, you know, miss, it's in the book of Acts chapter this verse this. And one of the other boys, Catholic boys turned to the person beside him and said, he's stupid, it's in the Bible. But this was a Christian book verse and chapter. And the class of the kids was like, what's he talking about? The book of Acts is in the Bible, you know? So, so yeah, so again, we can't, you know, presume anything by virtue of the kids that are, you know, are there in front of us, but, yeah, I don't know if that's, that's helpful. No, it is, I suppose, it was, like, have you found, let's say, other Christian denominations be able to take part in certain aspects of the program? Jo, and also really you're talking really, when it comes to sarcoma and the breath, I think, Jo, I think you're talking really, really key differences of marriage really. It is, and that's really like I said to you a minute ago, those are all good examples. Like, I do have confirmation class this year. There's things that we can do, like, for example, my boys have this confirmation workbook that they do in journal or whatever. So, at the start of the year, I photocopy the book. That's probably against copyright, so I'm not promoting that. I photocopy those parts of the book that I'm allowed to and that don't have a religious connotation in them. So, where they're just talking about their family or their friends or whatever. So, that means that, so when I introduce that, I'd say, okay, we'll take out our journals. So, I don't specify that it's a confirmation journal and we all take out our journal, whatever it is. But obviously, then we do come to those parts that are explicitly Catholic and we have to own that as well because that's who we are and that's who these boys are and they have, we want to be careful, like, that we're not being so mad in to include everybody that we're not being true to the fact that part of our role, whether we like it or not, as primary school teachers and Catholic schools, is to form these baptized children in their faith. And, frankly, for a lot of my kids, if they're not being formed in their faith by their teacher, I don't know where they're being formed in their faith and if they're being formed in their faith. So, I think that's common. I think that's a common situation now. We'll find that an awful lot of students are first encounter with church, as they say, is there any in school? And in some ways, what a wonderful way to experience church as well, but in another way, it also puts that extra as well as the importance, again, on the teacher's voice and on the making sure that they're providing accurate information to. And that also puts pressure on the teacher too in the sense that this is their primary principal engagement with church, how in which you address issues and addressing, is there, if you're making the impression on them, don't you're imparting yourself on them as being church, what churches, so it's like that being, by example. You know, it happens as well that the boys will always from, and again, when we talk about inclusion, boys from every faith tradition and none, we'll ask you questions about how the church is exclusive. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they'll pick me up when we're doing the sacrament of holy orders. I've never not been picked up on the fact that it doesn't apply to women. In every class, ever taught when we're talking about holy orders, somebody puts their hand up and says, "Hold on a second." Like, why, again, aren't, isn't that open to women? And I also have, in my old school, had a situation where I had a sixth-class child making confirmation, and her auntie had got married a couple of weeks before to her other auntie, so her auntie was gay. And this kid coming up to me with the genuine, genuine, not attention-seek and not anything, because we had known about the auntie getting married, we had prayed for the auntie getting married, all of this, but I really, I'll hold on a second here now, because I'm a bit confused by this. She taught the wedding was gonna be in a church. I didn't know, I didn't know that you're not allowed to get married in the church if you're married and a woman, so that's really, really hard. So, yes. Of course, they're hard because they're the big questions for mature adult Catholics as well. And there is the irony as well within the charge of the fact of how exclusive it is in terms of women as well considering how fundamental women were in the actual emergence of Christianity and the leadership roles they had that joy, it really is, as it was in some ways it's an opportunity to nearly distinguish between fate and Christ and the role of teach and as well as the role of Catholic teaching as opposed to, even today, my mother and her female friends run the parish, the priest just comes in and out, they do everything out, you know? I always be keen to kind of say that to my, to my boys as well or to my kids, you know that, like, if you were to take it all in, like, if you were to take it all the roles. Well, if you take it, like, even, like, do I even look at it, even myself and my prayer roles, even working with the Catholic education bodies, you know, apart from their seductions themselves, I was surrounded to vast majority of people I was surrounded with were women, and just strong, powerful, strong leaders, you know, was it, and, like, that's something I can't, it's the more, the more exclusive, inclusive space in the world in some ways in that way. There's a woman, like, you know, nano-nago, Catherine McColley, who, you know, just a system, you know? So, Catholic education is where, like, these are massive child figures, as opposed to, even when you're talking about that, even when we talk about different schools, the inclusion aspect as well, like, the diversity that you've been with in Catholicism as well, and, you know, and then we talk about the diversity within Christianity, I suppose, I suppose if there's one takeaway, I think, even from our conversations today, is that, I suppose, you know, diversity, of course, is all around you, but you have to kind of name-ish. Yeah. You have to name-ish, and you have to address it, and it's the manner in which you address it, that's important. Yeah. And I suppose, just, even when I'm asking everybody to ask, actually, Elena, do you want to come to the circumference and do them to make their confirmation, or that? Yeah. I do provide any opportunities for students' waterfights along to get involved in some way with the children apart from the journals, I suppose, but, like, don't want to celebrate the day with their classmates or anything else. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important, again, like, I don't assume that they want to do that, so, again, it's, you know, the time for a chat, you know, and to see what they want to do. I'm not a big believer in going to the church for 792 practices, and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, we limit that kind of, you know, show-y-ness, it's not necessarily for every kid to have a job, and that makes, you know, around the practicalities, it makes it a little bit kind of easier, I think, in a day when we wear our traits into the church, you know, every day for two weeks, I think that was really difficult on some of the kids. We don't do that anymore, so that's one blessing. But then, in terms of the day itself, yeah, like, I would always invite them to come. But, again, I would usually have a private conversation, but, you know, yeah, I'd say, look, you know, we have confirmation tomorrow, would you like to come? If they say yes, I'd always say, you need to chat a bit more, to mum and dad about that, and just make sure they're happy for you to come. And, largely, they will be, and they come, and they sit at the back, are some kids who say no, I don't want to go, and I say, totally perfect, you know, the next day when the kids come in, they'll be having a little party, they'll be wearing their clothes, would you like to just wear your silly bad day, you don't have to wear your uniform if you don't want to? And, you know, generally, they're really appreciating things like that, and even where they say, no, I just prefer to wear my uniform, I do think they appreciate that you're kind of looking out for them anyway. But, again, that only works if you've built the relationship of inclusion. So, if all year you've been kind of whisper, and you know, he doesn't do religion, and then you suddenly come down to them and say, do you want to come to confirmation? They'll be like, no, why would I want to come to confirmation? And they can react to it, you know? So, you have to kind of build, you have to build that from the start. And then, as I said, when you, you know, make mistakes or say something wrong, or, you know, say something that they don't, don't believe in, they forgive you for it. So, like, if Jehovah's Witness in my class this year, four is a seven day event as well. And I know that I often say things that they, I don't know if they personally disapprove of, but certainly that there will be a different perspective to their own given faith tradition. And sometimes they take me up on us. And, you know, where they do take me up on it then. And they're happy too. It's a really good opportunity for me to say, well, I actually, I didn't know that, you know, we're really telling more about how you interpret the story of creation. And, yeah, it's, that's brilliant. So, you go, but I think what's really coming across massively here, Orlando, is number one, so your humility, so as teacher, even in that space, you know, let the trails in it. So, like, knowledge even, Joe, when, Joe, and I don't know that, also, you don't have to be the all-knowing, you know, like, you know, no one knows everything. But also, I think the fact that you recognize the difference. And you said, right, this is something, this is another dynamic relationship that I have to try and cultivate, and nurture in the class. And it really, it seems like you're really sprung off of the invitational character of the kind of faith in general, but also a captivated education and the kind of heat that's good job. They're one's evolution, to participate, you know, but obviously, it's really thing that you really seem to have captured really well is the agency and autonomy of the students themselves, to me. Joe, like, they, it's, it's, so, I think even just like it there, because it's the big elephant in the room always, and I think obviously, the students on it's every year, first year's command, I get into the same thing, intellectual and it's, Joe, I asked them, don't, how many of you went to a catnipime soon? How many of you went to a catnip ceremony just because they, don't, how many of you went to a catnip tour of Leven, Joe, on the same suit, some, some might have, some might not. So, how many of you go to the mass every day? How many of you contemplate a gym in the seminary? How many contemplate become an animal? So, how many of you, does it fit fundamentally, impact it, the very daily existence of your lives? So, for either a Catholic school is a really, really bad indoctrination, right? Or it's just something that they're not about, you know? I think that's the real thing. Yeah, it's a great exercise, yeah. Yeah, because like you're seeing it there, you're like, you're, there's mountain, and we live in a pluralistic society. So, we live in a, Joe, and that means that you're supposed to be able to present yourself. Yeah. And you form your identity, John, from your relationship with others around you in different perspectives and more of views. So, in that space too, of course, it's really important, like you said, to present to others things that are actually uniquely and distinctly Catholic, that are part and parcel of the identity of that school with the type of education that you're delivering in that school, and with the ethos and approach taken to religious education in that classroom. So, there are certain things that are presented as such, but that doesn't mean, Joe, that, Joe, it can't be said inclusive, Joe, that people can't engage with that truth from different angles, because it's not about, about not worrying about even causing offense on the time. Yeah. Really what you're trying to do, I think, isn't it? In your class, it's trying to, if you're doing religious education, I want students who are going to participate in this, to get as much out of it as they can, for themselves and their own lives. And I think, Joe, I thought to be in your class, yeah. Yeah. Am I just saying, just as you were talking there, it struck me something that I didn't say, like, I say from day one, so I tell them on the first day, my name is Elaine. I know I like, you know, I have two children, Donna's 5, Hannah's 2, I live with my husband, we live in the bungalow in the middle of the country, and I'm Catholic. So that means that I pray every day, I usually pray in the car on the way to school, I go to Mass every Sunday, we have a turtle and two fish, so I present my own face. Now, I'm happy to do that. I also, when we do science, I also say to them, please, I don't have a scientific mind. You know, so you're going to have to help me when we're doing these experiments to try to help me figure things out. So I declare, like, I'm brutal at PE as well, brutal, I just throw a ball in and hope for the best. So, but like, when it comes to religion, they know my faith's perspective, and they're comfortable with that. So when we say our prayers in the mornings, which we do every morning, you know, we bless ourselves and I say, what will we pray for today? Generally, the Christian boys are standing, the non-Christian boys are sitting, generally, but every day, not some days, every day, one of the boys who are sitting will put their hand up. And they're generally just telling you their news. So the boys who are standing, they'd say, I want to pray for my dad, he's sick today. Perfect. This boy is sitting down, so not choosing not to stay proud in the prayer puts his hand up. My granny is sick too. So I take the prayer and I say, well, I'm going to pray for your granny because she's sick. So yeah, anyway, they know my faith's perspective as well. I'm comfortable to share my faith with them. I tell them when, you know, this is difficult for me to believe to understand whatever it is. And so yeah, it's just about as much openness, you know, in all things. I think that's the essence of good education, but it's It's definitely the essence of good Catholic education. Yeah, that's a brave thing to do as well, you know, that you're all opening yourself. I'd imagine like at first a teacher newly qualified out would struggle with that massively. I was a generalist to just come out straight away and into that space. But I think that again, like it's like faith itself, it's something that develops and goes through a process of self-knowledge, you know. It is. It's self-knowledge. I don't demand, like I tell off, my son, like he comes home, first of all, he tells the teacher everything. I get away with nothing. I told myself when you were in bad mood this morning, a lot. Great, you know, thanks. But we demand a lot of personal information from our students. Like we ask them all the time, personal questions in religion, in SPHG. We're asking them in SPHG, like when do you feel confident, when do you feel scared? So who are the members of your family you argue with? Like I really, I believe strongly that if we're not sharing some of ourselves, of course we maintain a personal boundary. But if we're not sharing some of ourselves, I don't know how we can get these kids to authentically give up themselves. And it's a bank, like good Catholic, good education again, good Catholic education is about holistic education. So everything, the whole person is just being educated, not just their brain. So asking them how they feel about things, telling them how you feel about things, I just, I accept what you say, maybe it's difficult for a first year teacher. And it obviously depends on your disposition and everything like that. But you know, I think back to the parker, parker, parker cliche of you, you know, you teacher, you are, and if you're going to know they, I will not smile and I'm so Christmas. It's true. I just, yeah, I tell you also that, like I said, I'm saying, even when I'm teach, I just can't not be, I don't feel, I feel like when somebody else is close and not, of course not if you hold the professional dimension, of course, but I think all good relationships have certainly level of vulnerability in this as well. So I think, I think that's really, just a flag even like what you said, there's not just about knowledge, religious knowledge and purely intellectual, but I don't want to hold the knowledge of the headhark hands and this kind of, that, that all aspects things. But I suppose it was, it's right, and I actually liked that, because like it's really been a fantastic challenge, which it was, it's the way to be, it's really for you to be honest with you. No, that's, that's it, just, yeah, I suppose just that that was the only thing that I felt as I guess I just to say that I do also share my faith with them, so that, and I think it's important because if I'm asking them, you know, particular, particularly perhaps those boys, you know, who aren't from a Catholic tradition, if I'm asking them about their faith and how they feel about whatever, you know, I think that's given of yourself and as you said, that kind of vulnerability is important too. Well, I think actually probably one last question, actually sorry then, as I leave it like that, is that, have you ever come across any useful resources that all of you all have been handy? You know, I would say the grown-up of programmers, even as have you found out that you didn't even just flagged? No, you know, I just, I do, I believe strongly in, in as many kind of visuals, as, as we can do, as many kind of symbols, as many kind of videos, you know, things like that, as we can kind of muster up. And I couldn't give you a specific one now if you put a bullet to my head, but I just, I think mainly, you know, just to invite them into that experience of something, and changing the space, and turning out the lights, putting on the candles, that kind of stuff, and just kind of brings us into a different space when we're doing, when we're doing religion. And even, you know, things presenting them with videos, you know, and again, there's so much out there, you know, that's helpful, even when we were doing lessons about kind of the natural world and creation, and, you know, whatever else, last year we went for a walk in this beautiful college campus, and we're kind of looking around at all these things and picking up the tiniest things, and looking at these are, you know, fifth-class boys, you know, and last year, 11, 12, 13 years old, and they're like, look at the shape of this rock. Isn't that mad? Like, so just given them kind of those kind of experiential things, rather than that I can name for you a particular resource or kind of a paper and pen thing, but the best resource I find is like, you know, a little moving, a little video, a little clip, something from a movie, like an actual movie, like Spider-Man with great power, comes great responsibility. The gospel today was about whom, you know, to whom much is given, which is expected. I'm like, it's Spider-Man, obviously, so, you know, there's some of those kind of things and helping them to see how kind of pop culture, and, you know, that there's so many Christian messages there, there's also so many crying messages, but there's lots of, you know, so kind of trying to get away in that way, I think, can be really powerful. Brilliant. That's brilliant, man. Thanks so much. And look, thanks so much for chatting with me today, and look, hopefully you might be able to have a chat in the future and about maybe a different topic, because there's so much more I think we haven't even got to cover today, which it wasn't, but thanks so much. It's been really brilliant having you. Sure. My pleasure. Thanks, David.