Inclusive Interior Design with Penny Miller of FIM Design

[Music] Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rianne Lee, founder of the Oliander and Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from Study to Studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. I have such an amazing treat for you today. I have an interview that I conducted recently and it's probably one of my favourite conversations I've had in a really long time. I spoke with Penny Miller from Families in Mind Design and Penny is an interior designer with a background in child development and she and I spoke about how we can be more intentional and inclusive with everything that we do from an interior design perspective. So that's thinking about inclusivity when we're looking at neurodiversity, working or including children in our designs, with disabilities, impairments, sensory sensitivities, all of those sorts of things. So I think if that's of any interest to you whatsoever and it should be for all of us, get a pen and paper because Penny brings so many valuable insights to today's conversation and just before I get into speaking with her, I wanted to remind you that I have just one place left on my marketing workshop. It is a full day 9 a.m till 3.30 p.m working with me virtually and a very small intimate group where we are going to go through your marketing, get all the messaging right and I'm going to teach you an amazing system that will allow you to do everything you need to do in under an hour and a half a week. So if you want that last spot, come and see me over on Instagram @oleander_finch and grab your pen and paper as I said because this one is full of amazing wisdom. Hi Penny, thanks for joining me today. Thanks, Rianna and I'm so happy to chat again with you. Yes, we had you in the framework a week or so ago and the conversation was so well received by all of my students. There's been lots of chat in the private chat as well about what they got out of it and where they're going to take it. So I'm really pleased to have you on designing success today because I think it's a conversation that's really important for a broader audience as well. I'm really glad and I think as you say it's something that we're talking a lot more about these topics in society in other areas not just in design. So it's really helpful that we actually take that into our sector of the world and enhance the things that we're doing in the processes that we're trying to improve the lives of people in their homes but also thinking about some of those more vulnerable populations is really critical. Yeah, it's fantastic. Over the years I have had the privilege of working with quite a few, I guess, different abilities, bit neurodiversity, physical disability, impairment, sensitivities, like different clients have had different needs. And I don't think I've ever learnt so much as I have on each of those jobs. Like I've felt as though from floor plan right down to just like fabrics and discussions around particular needs for those jobs that I wouldn't have asked about normally or wouldn't have thought about. I've really felt that each of those jobs, my ability as a designer has been so epically improved and then I'm able to take them into the next job as well and then ask the right questions or I've learnt a little bit more. So we're really happy to have you here today so that everyone can sort of get an idea of what are those things that we could ask or we could learn from being more inclusive in interior design. Before we get into it, can I just ask you to tell us a little bit or my listen is a little bit about who you are, where you're from, what do you do now, those sorts of things? Absolutely, so my name's Penny Miller. I operate families in my design, which is a family-friendly interior design service. I live in Melbourne with my two kids and my husband and our dog. We live a very regular life and prior to having kids I had a career working in the mental health space with young children and their families predominantly and I did clinical work and I also worked as a researcher. So over the years I worked in hospitals and community and schools and you know worked with some of the more vulnerable groups of our population. So children who'd suffered trauma or abuse or children with mental illness and those with neurodivergence and disability and sort of amongst all that I became a mum and qualified as an interior designer out of pure kind of interest and intrigue and having a home that I wanted to improve with a bit more informed knowledge I suppose and with the background and child development it became immediately obvious to me just how crucial the home environment is for family functioning and for the wellbeing of all the individuals who live within that home because it's a huge adjustment obviously when children come into your life and your home and we all want to love being at home. So I guess building my business to be family focused and inclusive and accessible kind of married all my passions and expertise together and it became really important to me to offer a service and a product that kind of set itself apart from a lot of interior design service which can fill a little bit of putting and separate to regular family day to day life can be like and offering a service and content and learning that is available to all people no matter their budget, their socio-economic status, who's living in their home and I think designing with families in mind just requires a certain understanding and approach and I'm really pleased to be able to bring all that passion and expertise into kind of that niche that I'm offering now. Is there anything particular like important things you think that we need to keep in mind when designing for people with neurodivergence disability or even designing thinking about kids in mind as well. There's so many things so I'm conscious of trying to break it down so as not to just waffle on to everyone and overwhelm the audience so I think the important thing to keep in mind is the prevalence of some of those things that you mentioned so neurodivergence is estimated to be you know 15 to 20% of the population there's estimated to be 15 to 20% of the population as well who have heightened sensitivity to their environments and I don't know the stats around disability I'm sorry about that but we know that there is a huge proportion of Australia and the world who have some kind of impairment you know with their mobility with their vision with their learning with their hearing just to name a few obviously and we have to be mindful that some of those people live with that permanently and some people live with that temporarily and the way that these people with variations in their thinking and going about the world makes it hard for them to engage in the world which is not being designed for them. So we have seen a bit of a shift to this idea of universal design which is making sure that products and buildings and environments and programs and experiences are accessible to as many people as possible regardless of the age their ability level their culture background or any other kind of different differentiating factor and focusing on that user centered design from start to finish and so when you're thinking about someone who's got a neurodivergence for example you might be thinking you know it's just a difference in how someone's brain works really so they're just going about the world thinking differently experiencing it differently and in kind of interacting it in a unique way so we need to be mindful of how they process the world in a sensory way and that's the case for people who aren't necessarily new or a diversion too you know and young children we all have these differences in our sensory processing and so there's lots of you know very very adaptable and accommodating ways that we can make the spaces that we live and work and interact in much more enjoyable and regulating for those individuals. Yeah I think sensitivity is a big one that's often in our questionnaires are in the way that we approach a design job for example we'll often ask things like oh what do you prefer velvet or linen or we'll ask you do you like landscape art or abstract or we're asking these sorts of questions but I feel like there's like a big missing chunk of questions that we could probably ask in a better way to get more information that helps a better result for people because they might not think to mention it and we might not have included it in a questionnaire are there any questions like that that you can think of that we could do better. Absolutely and I think before I even jump into that it's important to realize that some people don't even self identify with kind of an individual difference or disability some people may not know that that's a category or a diagnosis that they fit into or they've chosen not to and so we can't just be leading with questions about like what's your disability what how do you identify because that doesn't actually make sense for that person it doesn't attach any meaning to that so the questions we want to ask as interior designers are tell me what inclusions you might need versus what disability you have you know how do you find the light in this room that we're sitting in is it too bright is it too dark do you find the sunlight coming in in the afternoon really overwhelming does it give you a headache what about the sounds in your home you do you do you do you like it to be quieter, do you like the hubbub of things, or when you go out in the world, do you find that you're overwhelmed when you're hearing lots of insensory input from an auditory perspective? Yeah, textures, like you said, we've been velvet. Do you find that there's certain fabrics that you prefer to wear or sit on that either you really like touching and that makes you feel good or that in the opposite direction that really agitate you and so we can kind of make notes of that as a sign is about, well, okay, and maybe we exclude that fabric or maybe we actually make sure we include that fabric in that child's bedlin' and for example. And so from the sensitivities point of view, I think we can take the lead on asking those questions without it seeming kind of too obvious in their face like they might be put on the spot about how they identify. So taking that off their hands and being the curious person in the room and just kind of having that neutrality of, I'm just interested to know how we can be more accessible and inclusive for all people and that may or may not apply to that person and if it doesn't, you know, probably move on. But we all have a preference of some kind so it kind of can fit organically into your onboarding questionnaires too. Yeah, I really like that. I also like the idea that what we have at home and what we have out in the natural world are quite different and usually requested to be quite different. Like you've ever designed a master bedroom and you always hear the words like sanctuary and like parents retreat, you know, those sorts of words get used a lot because it's like, I want to go in there at the end of a day and I want it to always be tidy and I want it to be a place that there are new children's toys or whatever that looks like for the client. And I think that some of the line of questioning is just about nailing for the client how they want to feel in their house and then also how they want their guests to feel and remembering to ask about the guests as well because sometimes I have also found that we later in the course of conversations find out that there's a disability of a family member that doesn't live in the home but visits the home a lot. So it's sort of like, well, I want to really take them into mind because if I have all these trip hazards and thick rugs and all these things that are really difficult to get a wheelchair around or whatnot then it helps if I know that that person is a part of our collective world that we need to really consider when we make an interior design choice. That's a really good point. And even within my own family, like one of my children's grandparents has a mobility impairment and so when I was setting up my daughter's bedroom, I knew she didn't need a nursery chair anymore because we weren't sitting in the dark at night time doing feeds but I knew that her grandparents needed to sit in a proper seat that was comfortable so they could read books together and that the switches to turn on her light and her sound machine weren't on the floor because she wouldn't have been out of bed over and reached them. So some of those, as you say, real world applications of not just the people who live there but might be a critical, important part of visiting the home can make that process of working out what's important much more functional. The people who aren't really that confident but who've never really delved into the world of speaking to clients about inclusion as well. It can sometimes be a really great way to present the questions so I need to know, through that front door will there be anybody coming in that I can consider in a better way that I can do things in a way that's best for all. So when we're talking about just thinking about being more inclusive in general, it helps open up the mind of the client to not just to the three or four or five people in that family unit but like we're actually going to design this space to be used by effectively whoever knocks on the front door, right? I agree and I think as well, if you're thinking about that whole like walking through the front door, like actually taking the user through their home, if it is like rather, I don't mean like doing a new build or a renovation per se, but if you've got the existing walls, like taking them through the space and actually hearing how they experience the room, you know, how they get over the lip of the floorboards to the carpet or you know, that navigating that step or where the light switches are, just like making that a really hands-on experience and not making it about what they can or can't do, just making it as if you would do that with all of your clients, you know, to walk me through your home and tell me what you love and what you hate and what we would need to make this more enjoyable and empowering experience for you. If you could guarantee designers knew one thing about designing spaces with all inclusions in mind, what would it be? That's a really good question. I think, kind of have two. I think, yeah, it'd be hard to narrow it down, but I think as a professional always just being curious and just being open-minded about what you do and don't know and being willing to learn and uncover it and admitting when you don't know something very well and committing to finding it out for that person and not just disempowering whoever you're working with by your ego getting in the way potentially. Just, you know, absolutely. We're all in a learning curve, I guess, of understanding how everyone experiences the world and that's really exciting. So I think we can be really curious as designers. And I think the other thing that I would really hold in mind is that the goal is usually always independence. So how can that child do that thing for themselves and engage in their world without reliance as they get older? How can that person who's got mobility difficulties live in their home without relying on someone else or being reminded of what they can't do constantly? How can they move from room to room and complete their everyday tasks that they need to in a way that is respectful and dignified? And I think working towards that with all individuals who might be struggling to live in our typical world is that they want to get about the world just as independently and easily as people who might be considered more neurotypical are. Yeah, brilliant. I think that's really great. You mentioned curiosity as designers, but also just as humans. Like I really have always felt asked the questions and be okay about asking the questions. So if you want to have those big learning moments after you have worked with someone where there's been some challenges you've had to do differently as a designer. Because it's not just paint by no, it's not just this, I guess, atypical or ableist kind of way of going about things and actually being able to chat to someone, sit down and say, "Hey, what are your ideas? How can I make it best for you?" Like, don't let me just go ahead and assume something because the way that I experience the world is not going to be the way that you are. And so I'm going to really need your help here and get them involved in that design process and say, like if I ask something and it's stupid, please forgive me, but also if you can give me the answer. It means I'm not going to make a stupid choice for you and your family. Like, I really want to do the right thing and get the best outcome. And I always find that when you are doing that, there's so much more open lines of communication and control and the outcome is so much better because people have been like, "Oh, hold up. I don't think you've thought about this or you've just gone on, you're married little way, but do you have a chair? No, do you know what it's like to be visually impaired? I need something that's brighter or catch my attention or it's not very obvious to me and just having them feel a real sense of participation in the process has always been really important because I think it's where you get a much better learning and a much better outcome as well." - Totally, and I like what you said about assumptions there because I think that's the bit that we can get unstuck on is that we make decisions based on what we know and that's just a human fault, but just like that's just part of being a human, right? That we have to go about the world knowing what we know when making assumptions, but I think as soon as you can catch yourself being like, "Oh, is that actually true or is that something I've just assumed?" And then just asking the question for clarification will always yield a better outcome for your client and then obviously just a better shared mutual experience of trust and togetherness, as you say, so they are active participants in that process. - So because that sort of assumptions that are true of the way you experience the world, but of course when you go ahead and do that, you're not designing your own house, so it's the same way that we might triple check through someone if you're designing with someone with a style outcome that's not how you have your own home or it's not your preferred style as an interior designer. Sometimes it would just double check with them and be like, "How are you vibing the artwork? How do you feel about that?" 'Cause I'm not particularly, like I don't do a lot of work with Japan, for example, so you're like, "Is this minimalist enough for you to go and check with the client during the process quite a few times if it's not your go-to?" And I don't think anything's different with this. I think if there's a sensitivity in mind if you're trying to sort of work to an outcome that's not your lived experience, then you kind of do have to just keep triple checking, don't you? And asking the questions over and over just to make sure you're staying on path. - Absolutely, otherwise the only reviews you're gonna get are people saying, "The designer didn't listen to me on my knees, whether it's style, color, or budget, or whatever it is." That's a really crucial part of being a designer as it is. We are a people-centered business and service, so we have to be approaching it in a way where we wanna understand and individuals' needs and preferences, because then we can explore the possibilities and the options available to meet them. And in this day and age, there are a number of accommodations and adaptations that we can make to how a a home looks, feels and functions, but that can only happen when we have that clear understanding of the client. So can you talk me through what some of them are, just me? I'm like, "Oh, I met. I know some, but I think it's really interesting to think about what kind of ways you can adapt your home to be more inclusive. What are some things that you're seeing?" Sure. So maybe this is a good one for listeners to grab a pen and paper or type some notes because I'm going to talk through a few things that they might be really off. So when you're thinking about someone who might have some kind of physical or visual or hearing impairment, you might be thinking about how you might customise the physical nature of the home. So wider doorways, accessible entries and exits, lowering sync or bench heights, putting in handrails, making the floor slip resistant and minimising rugs and lips between changes of flooring and thinking about where switches and outlets are within reach. Also considering using automations and adaptive technology, so making the most of what's available to us by setting up an automation in a room where you say, "Hey, Alexa, you know, I'm home." And the light turns on, the heater turns on, the music turns on, and they're ready to be home without having to move around the home to turn on five different things. I would think also if you've got someone who's got some sensory sensitivities, there's a few different ways you can adapt the home to meet them. So you might want to think about someone who's got his sensory. So I guess to go backtrack with sensory sensitivities, you either have sort of a sensory seeking nature where you want that more of that sensory input or your sensory avoidant where you want to minimise how much of that input comes to you through the day. So if you've got someone who's sensory avoidant with sound, then you might want to think about the materials in the room that will absorb and damp and sound. So if you're in a room that's got floorboards with lots of windows, timber furniture, the sound's going to be quite echoey and bouncy, and that can be overwhelming for someone who's sensitive to noise. So I think about using soft furnishings like rugs, curtains and throws that will help minimise all that background noise that's going on. You might want to consider making spaces sort of sensory depth, what's the term sensory depth to private sensory deprivation spaces. I'm just thinking of these pods or tanks now. I've just gone into one of the things. Right. In there. Yes. So yeah, you don't need a sensory deprivation tank to enjoy a sudden sensory deprivation. But think about corners of your room or dedicated spaces in your house that might be quiet and safe and dark and cozy. And particularly for a child who's neurodivergent who has very limited ability to self-regulate, they're still learning so much about the world and they rely on the adults to help them regulate. And as they get older, they learn those tools and techniques that help them. But while they need that input, you might need to set up that space and make it a permanent space in your home that's like, you don't need to play in the area with your whole family. If you need to tap out for a little while, go in your little tent or your corner or under the covers in your bed and read a book or just put on some music and knowing that that's particularly healthy for that person to be able to do that. And as they get older, they know that that's something that they can do independently. Also consider things like smells. I think smells probably one of those sensory inputs that people don't think about as much. So things like using plants and perfumes and certain fabrics that have a strong odor to them or choosing furniture that doesn't have that really strong chemical smell when you find a first install it or airing it out before you put it in the house and using paint on the walls that's like the lower missions one that's low fumes so that we can get it back into your house sooner. And thinking about air purifiers too if you need to just to clean the air and make it less overwhelming. And maybe your child who is really sensitive to smells can't have a place based right next to the kitchen because they really put off by when you're cooking. These are really specific examples, but I think it really helps to conceptualize just what we're talking about in a really practical sense. For sure, I wouldn't have even thought of the scent one and really like I just don't think it comes across, like I can't think of the last time I was in a consultation and said are you averse to any particular strong smells. And yet I had a new car smell of it, the upholstery inside of a new car or like I know what that feels like to be like, I've just unrolled this rug and it's been in a shipping container and it's been sprayed with something like I know it smells and so it's outside for a few days before it's back in or a throw rug or something like that. And yeah, I've run a client, I've never thought about that from perspective of my clients. It's just something that I've experienced in my home or I've experienced as a consumer of furniture and other things, but I just never have put that together to sort of say to people, by the way, this might be this or let's go in store or let's select something and make sure that we're taking a sensory like smell as a sense into consideration. So let's something to. And that's like a really good example of why that leading question can be so helpful because when you ask a client, what are your preferences and needs, they're not going to think of that off the cuff. So if you have that question of like textures, sounds, smells, visual, overwhelmed, or you know, you're actually giving them the prompt to be like, oh, actually, I do like that and I don't like that, which can lead to some very important outcomes. There's probably two more things that I would consider and this is more of an obvious one, I guess, with the visual input. We want to try and minimise visual overwhelm when we're working with people who've got that real visual sensitivity. So thinking about reducing clutter, so not just keeping spaces clean, but how we store things away. And maybe when they say, I really like that open shelving in the kitchen, you know, knowing what you know now, you might say, actually, I know that looks a certain way, but I think that day to day, you might find that challenging to feel calm and happy in this room. So why don't we put some clothes shelving in this room and we could put some open shelving in a room that you don't use quite as often. Thinking also about, you know, giving the eye some space to rest. So that's a concept in the interior design world that many would know about using negative space. So thinking about like some of those kids rooms that you might have seen on social media that are just like full to the brim, walled as ceiling, gorgeous trinkets and posters and wall decals and everything. And I personally, as someone who's probably a little bit on that visual sensitive side of things, look at that and go, I don't know where to look and I don't want to be in this room particularly. I don't find it very calming, which is what bedrooms are supposed to be. So, you know, practising that that restraint when it's needed for that particular client to not just overfill the room out of necessity or feeling like that's going to make it look more interesting. Thinking also about, as you said, the contrast of colours. So someone who's got visual impairment might need some stronger contrast and there's a tool actually that I can pass on to you, Rianne, that you can input colours and it'll tell you if it's high contrast enough for someone who's got visual impairment, which may not be as necessary or important in a space like a bedroom, but, you know, in a high task area, it may well be and even in sort of your documentation, you might need to consider that too, so that they can read the, you know, the concept that you've presented to them in a clearer way. Lighting is a really important one too, so you want to select flexible lighting. So, dimmable lighting and soft, warm lighting wherever possible, kind of thinking about that harsh, cool lighting that we see in supermarkets and shopping centers can be really, really triggering for people who've got sensitivity. So, using more of those softer lightings and also thinking about window furnishing so that you can diffuse that harsh sunlight, so, you know, a sheer curtain or a mesh blind that can just soften the light without looking it out entirely. And I guess the last strategy I would suggest is about kind of predictability in the home. So, most people like to come home and know where their things are and that they're in a certain place, so you don't want to mess around with the flow of a house too much or assume that it's going to be moved around a lot to be workable, particularly for someone who's got like a sensory sensitivity with their balance or their coordination or they've got a mobility impairment. You don't want them to be experiencing the room in a really flustered way where they don't know how to get around a piece of furniture or how they get from here to there when they look up and they stand and look at the room. You know, like, I've got all these obstacles on the way or that chair was there, but now it's over there. So, thinking about how to make room as routine and ritual lies as possible, I guess, and putting favourite items and go to items and things that are used every day and, you know, a toy is a perfect example for a child that you put their go to toys in a space that they can reach really easily without having to ask for help constantly to get that because that just maximises frustration. And you spoke about independence before, but nothing says independent, like, independently walking over and picking up your toy instead of like pulling on my skirt and, you know, interrupting what I'm doing and can you open the cupboard? Can you get me this thing or can you reach out there? So many amazing insights there, lots of great considerations. Some I hadn't thought of and some that, I guess, just make such sense, but I really never noticed like the kids bedroom design thing, like I'm like, you're right. They're so overwhelming sometimes in terms of more is more or or actually even just feel very designed based on what we as adults think are beautiful spaces. So you know, front cover of magazine kind of where the spaces, but are those the key five best friends that the kid has that they were, you know, like titties or whatnot like a those the actual things because my kids always want the one armed Barbie and the all the things that I would probably shove in the bottom drawer or like take away when they're at school. Those are the things that connect to their heart and they're not really things I put on display, you know, they're always talking about their snappies, their painted egg cartons and like if you're too controlling, you wouldn't want that painted egg carton to wreck your aesthetic, but obviously that's so important to them. So there has to be a space for them to be them and to have the things on display that actually matter and more than a decal, more than the design that you think they want. Again, it comes down to actually asking what they want and including them in that design process. And more and more, you know, we're seeing this pressure to curate beautiful spaces, but when it comes down to the crux of it, and this is something I could talk about with you on a whole other episode probably about, you know, what key things are important for children to thrive in their home environment, neurotypical or not, you know, is that they just want to connect, they just want to feel safe and secure and that they belong. If you really whittle it down to what's important, it's not all the sparkle and razzle dazzle and all the expensive trinkets, it's that they've got a safe predictable space to sleep, that they've got a spot to share books and toys with their favorite people and they've got access to the things that they need on a day-to-day basis and they know what's theirs. And they're being included, it's like I think it's such an undervalued thing that happens when you, when you ask a 10-year-old what kind of bedroom they want to have or when you go and actually sit down and think, you know, we're going to do this big thing, the whole house is getting changed, we're getting a designer in, are there any requirements that you want to attach to the designer about or is there anything that you want Marmordad to pass on for you or like asking some of the questions and making them feel like they're a part of their family and their home because they've had a say in how it looks and feels and everything like that is so important. Definitely. When they're younger, some of their ideas will be a little bit out there and nonsensical of course and you've got to take them with the grain of salt and temper their enthusiasm but as they get older they should, yeah, have the opportunity to weigh in on what's important and when you're working with clients around that you can sort of say to them, look there are things that I'll have to refer to your parents about or your care is about because ultimately they get to say about what's in your best interest or what your needs are or you know the person that you might be consulting in their health team, you know, an occupational therapist for example, but that's not to say they can't weigh in on their favorite colors or a theme or something that is really close to their heart and then you work out as a designer like how you can incorporate that in a meaningful way, balancing their other needs of the room and the budget and you know how, you know, I'm always big on like that flexible for the long term too, like not painting the room in an entire mural of that interest they have that week because they're so fickle. So thinking like oh yeah, we could use that in a some kind of small way in case your interest change over time but yeah you're right I think with any client including them in a way that actually shows they do have some choice and control is really empowering too. Have you got any tips on how to balance that compromise because I have had legitimate conversations with parents of children with disability who still want the plus rug but also know that that is going to be a tripping hazard or a difficulty with the chair and then it's kind of up to me to work out how to do that and I find that it can be so much more challenging than just trying to work out a way to get an ivory bar still in a kitchen because ultimately I can say look I don't advise it here are the five reasons why but it's your money at the end of the day and you know if that is where you want to burn it on fire that's not that's not up to me but I do think when we're talking about compromising considerations and abilities and impairments what is your advice on how we we make everyone happy. A tricky one but I think you know as a mum that your kids always listen to someone else more than they listen to you and they always put up a barrier to you as them then they do to someone else like I'll frame something to my daughter that I've said a thousand times and then someone else in her life will say it and she'll go oh yeah that makes sense to me oh that's so true or yeah I'll do that thing now and I think that kind of can be applied a little bit to that like there isn't that emotional connection where you have to you know preserve a relationship with that client you're coming in as someone who's objective and neutral and has a job to do and you can really establish your stance on that and say look I know you really want this thing but my job is to make sure that your room doesn't just look good but that is safe and functional for you every single day and so I have to say that that's not something that we can include at this point in time and I'm really sorry about that but I am curious as to why you like it so much you know do you like the color do you like the texture the feel the personality it adds and using the answers that that client gives you to find an alternative solution well if you really like that red plush rug could we instead get a bright red bed spread that we can put on your bed that will add that color punch that you're looking for or incorporate that texture somewhere else in the room so that you're not just shutting it down and saying no without context or showing that you you're not willing to find compromise and a solution in some kind of other way you want to know what we did yeah of course I do we hang it on the wall so her rug is her wall art and oh my god we'll let around but it took along like I am not a naturally confrontational person in order I ever want to be confrontational with my client so I actually found it really confronting to have I expected them to take the lead in wanting to do all the things that were right for the like impairment that we were working with and I was quite taken aback to have to work with someone who was adamant they were going to have this rug and that to me was just a disconnect in in the messaging and as a young design you know on early design I didn't really have the tools in my toolkit to come back exactly as you know I just didn't feel that I was able to say no that's not the outcome that you have hired me for and I do want to take it into consideration for you but I'm not sure why we're considering it in the first but you know it was it was a really tough difficult thing something that was mentioned inside of our conversation in the framework that I loved that you mentioned was around designing every space to the person in that space that has the most vulnerability or needs so making sure that whatever you're doing you do it down to their needs and then it doesn't adversely affect everybody else did I get that right? Am I understanding that right that you told us? Yeah yeah I think that was something that everyone went oh I like that conceptualization of that and that's something that I took away from working in schools from a wellbeing sense was that if you've got a kid in a classroom of 25 and that child's having a really hard time with the sunlight that's coming through the window in the afternoon and the simple solution is to put the blinds down so that that child can focus and regulate and be content in their learning environment it's it would be a hard step to say that every other kid's going to suffer from that they might protest and have an issue with it but if we meet the needs of the person with the most vulnerability usually everyone benefits and that can certainly be applied to the home unless you've got people who've got very polarizing needs and you know setting up someone's needs of you know adversely affect someone else but I would say generally speaking when you think mindfully about design the textures that you're using the interaction with materials how the person uses the space it's going to be a more enjoyable experience for everyone who uses it. A family functions more smoothly when everyone in the home is regulated and happy you know that their experience of the world is mostly positive and not agitating and triggering you know that that one person having that adverse reaction to their home will impact the family's functioning day to day which we want to avoid we want to minimise we can't eliminate it entirely but families deserve to thrive in the homes that they're living in so I think it's critical that we think about how we can minimise any kind of negative input for an individual and I think if you're talking about a mum or a parent or a carer who's living with a person in their home who's struggling with the world as it is they will be desperate to know how they can modify it to make everyone's life easier at home. Yeah agree have you seen or have you observed in any way a shift towards more inclusive design in residential environments I feel like commercially inclusion has been considered for quite some time an interior design I feel like when we're designing a commercial space and we're thinking about waiting rooms and doorways and switches and other things and I don't know if there's just because there's been a legal requirement to do so for a long time where we want to make sure that people don't feel ignored or non-included. Do you think there's a shift in residential design getting more and more inclusive now versus just a commercial space? Definitely. As you say, the biggest driver for the commercial space being ahead of the residential space in this area is regulations and that usually comes down to money and meeting requirements and and you know that's a bit of a cynical way to look at it but I also feel like there's a lot of effort and additional resourcing required to make spaces more accessible and people can put up a bit of a fight for that and not think about making it universally appropriate for everyone and so commercially yes there's a lot more research and regulation and legislation and guidelines from big bodies you know architects and building authorities that will say this is what we need to do to make a space more accessible and that kind of trickles down to residential I think and you know if you work with someone like a occupational therapist because you need modifications to your home or you need assistance going about day-to-day life which is what occupational therapists support with then you'll know that they come in and they do assessments in the house about you know what's going to make it safer for them to live in the home so I think that's sort of been what we've seen in the residential space but certainly our understanding of neurodivergence as that evolves it's then kind of coming over to other areas of how to make schools more inclusive and accessible how to make hospitals and waiting rooms and like you said but then how do we make homes more inclusive and accessible as well and a lot of that comes from a parent or a carer they're driving it they know that it needs to be improved and some enhancements need to be made or some modifications of some kind and they'll do the deep dive of the research trying to work out what do we know about something like autism and what does that mean about and how I set up my child's room but I feel like it's not a it's not a go-to for many interior design firms to be taking that lens from the outset which is what universal design is is thinking about that user centered experience from the outset from the very first touch point all the way through the end not just you know at the tail end going oh I'm doing need to make any kind of modifications so I think as we like I said as we understand more about neurodiversity and we're embracing it in culture and society we'll see that it becomes more of the norm I think in the residential interior design space and certainly I'm not the only person that's marrying two kind of career areas in this space there's people who have worked as occupational therapists and done interior design qualifications too that are kind of kind of intuitively just putting those skills together to the benefit of their clients yeah amazing and I think that's it like we all evolve and it's going to take a little bit of time I think sometimes it's felt as though the assumption is if you're being inclusive you're dropping the bench levels and sink levels and putting in handrails and doing all of this from the outset in case somebody with a disability visits your house but it's really not like that like it's really as you say just thinking bigger picture is there anything here that can be done in a way that could be more broadly accepted or more broadly beneficial there's lots of different ways that you can pose the question but it's not always about throwing a heap of budget that maybe you already didn't consider that you had towards modifying houses or modifying designs but it's the lighting as you say or the Alexa or the little things that you could put in there and just think okay you know even if that's down at the design level to layered lighting and just having options so it doesn't always have to be the down light sometimes if you want to you can kind of close blinds keep things dark keep it cool and that you do have those options available. It comes down to being intentional. Is this another part of your design process is just being intentional and mindful of some of those really nuanced details that will you know cliche as it is make or break someone's experience of living in that home. You spoke about design process and one of the things that you spoke to us about in the framework that made me you know stop for a minute and go okay yeah was adapting that on boarding and off boarding process or the processes in general towards different levels of abilities and different sort of needs of your client. Can you tell me more about what you might do differently from a designer perspective for a client who needed you to run the process differently what does that look like. So you'd want to ask those questions in your first consultation probably just to get a sense of what those individual needs might be but once you've got a bit of an understanding of who the person is and what they might need the things you might do could be like I said before changing the contrast of the colours that you're using in your documentation so that it's easier to read you might need to make pictures and fonts bigger on the documents that you're sharing you may need to have multiple meetings rather than just one because there might be a difficulty in the uptake of information that you're sharing and you might need to present it visually and also in writing and also maybe a video that you might need to just adapt the different to differently presenting it in ways that will suit their learning you know if you've got someone who's dyslexic reading through an enormous concept document might just be too overwhelming and they can't see the letters straight so you might need to actually talk through every single thing assuming that they need help understanding it without having to read it themselves you might think about what you put on your website or your social media as well if you're you know referring them to certain documentation that you have because you need to make it accessible and there's certain guidelines for following you know making a website accessible by certain standards so that if they zoom in that the lines don't get cut off and things don't get jammed and jumbled and I'll get together so there's that I think another one that's probably crucial is just allowing more time you know just giving yourself more time to explain things and demonstrate things and talk through things and like you said if you're working with children and young people and then adults you'll need to have meetings with each of them and then altogether and then come back together and make sense of it and synthesise information for everyone and I think just being really explicit in showing your understanding and that if things need to be customized or you need to do a lot of research that you demonstrate that you've done that and show that you're being really thorough and you know finding really creative and innovative solutions to the problems that they're presenting with. I totally agree and I think you mentioned as well in our chat around possibly sometimes needing to have a guardian care are a second person inside of conversations and meetings too if they need that like they'll obviously guide you as to what they do and don't feel that they need but sometimes you know being open to it might not be a one-on-one zoom call it might be like I want to make sure I think like a boardroom of people coming together to get the right out. Having an advocate of some kind where that person can help them understand that person knowing that individual better than you do and being able to then hear that information and then talk about it after the meeting in more detail and answer questions that might come up and then they might want to put some questions together then make a list that they want to run through with you the next time that you meet but I'm glad you remembered some of my talking points better than me some of that's left sunken. Well because it's from lived experience too because I have worked with people who have had their carers in and I've really appreciated that because at times they've been able to challenge some of the things that I've been tasked with doing as to whether or not that's actually a good idea for the outcome you know if I've pushed back a little bit and then they're able to explain to the person with a disability why it might not be a great idea and as you say around communication you know they will also appreciate if you think of something and you've considered it in your design like I recall presenting considering particular dimensions of what it would take to do like a full 3.2 of the chair in a corner of a room and then they both laughing and going well she will never have to do that like that's not that's not how we use it but thanks for us you know but they do actually really appreciate that when you are designing spatially the room I have thought about could you turn around that's going to design a room where you start facing forwards in a corner and you can't get out like so it it helps on my side to do that to get the design right but I think they also thought it was funny because they were like oh we didn't tell you but you don't need to like really go into that much that's very generous however yeah correct but that's what having added voices in the room really helps with I think when you are trying to come up with something that's effectively pretty new to a lot of designers like there aren't a lot of people with the niche that you have or with specific inclusion outcomes as their brand vision and as their sort of niche and so when you are doing it it can often be like one of less than five consultations that you might do in a year that include these sorts of factors to take into consideration. So there's a lot of learning and there's a lot of mistakes and there's a lot of jumbling through. But if you can get your clients, as we said earlier, like on the call to just roll with it, let you know what they need, let you know if you're on the wrong track, let you know, like keep you informed in what their expectations are. Then ultimately you get through it and get a great outcome. Yeah. Yeah. It's just another part of that process, you know, making your first discovery pool is terrifying. And then as you practice it, you get better and more confident. And you know, I'm not a navigator. And there's no doubt that adding this kind of questioning into your process will feel a little bit clunky and a little bit uncomfortable or just not what you're used to from the outset. But it'll just become one of those things that we embed into what we do. And that's the kind of the goal of universal design is that it's not this add-on that we have to tick a box for. It's being able to know that we're asking these questions all the time no matter who we're speaking to. Yeah, which I love. And I think only great things will come out of it. As you say, if you don't identify as having a sensory disorder, but you're able to explain correctly to a designer that clutter just makes you feel anxious and you don't love it in your house, then that answer is open to everyone who works with you as opposed to coming at it from a way of like, do you have a sensory issue with visual clutter? People will often check no, but then everything they say screams yes. Yes. Yeah. In terms of not necessarily bio-fuelic design, but where we always think about how we can bring nature indoor outdoor, that sort of thing. Is there any specific benefits or things that you think help with inclusion in general from a nature perspective? Absolutely. You'll see in this advocacy space where you see designers making homes more suitable for people who are neurodiverse, that they do use a lot of natural elements for that reason that bio-fuelic element is very grounding and very beneficial for someone who might have trouble regulating in a typical world. So using timber elements where you can and natural materials where you can will definitely help connect indoor and outdoor and integrate nature in their day to day and also providing access where possible to be outside and be in nature. Enjoying the sunshine and the fresh air and connecting with the natural world is, I mean, it's super beneficial for kids. I think anyone who's got young children will say that as the benefit the end of the day, just get them outside. We know that it's wonderful for everyone's mood and regulating how they feel. So definitely when you're thinking about the materials you might use, bio-fuelic elements like timber and natural materials will be really, really beneficial. And again, I think everyone wins, you know, that I love a bit of modern organic. So I definitely love being like there's sex stones over there, there's this over here. I think it's very few people who are like, it's a bit natry in here. I don't really like it. Look, I'm not saying put plants in all the rooms and stuff because that's more water careful or any might then have the issue of, you know, sense that overpowering, like there's always a catch-22 of what you're doing, but I think, as you say, like no one's ever been offended by introducing natural materials more and more. Are there any specific resources or websites that you'd recommend for learning more about inclusive material design or keeping up with the trends or knowing what's sort of happening out there in this space? Yeah, I have been trying to make it a task of mine actually to build up my resource library in this space and to understand, you know, who's doing the work and where because, you know, like most things, Australia doesn't lead the charge in this per se, but there's lots of good examples coming out of the states and the UK, you know, websites for people who, like I said, have that background between two industries that make it really meaningful for them to be designing spaces for those with individual needs. Even the Victorian Government website has guides for meeting universal design needs and educating about those areas. There's some guides through the Victorian Building Authority as well about accessibility. There's a body called architecture and access that helps to educate us about creating environments to suit the needs of people with accessibility issues. There's a couple of books and people that I really like to follow as well. So there's a book called The Sensory Home by Pippa Edwards and she has designed a book about how to make homes more mindful from a sensory perspective and she's got as an Instagram account which is at The Sensory Home and there's another woman that I like to follow out of the states, a woman called Shelley Rosenberg and her business is all about designing for neurodivergence and her business, Acorn and Oak, has like is dedicated to making interior design all about inclusivity and so I think there's a few examples, you know, recommendations for designing for neurodiversity and disability that are kind of coming through and it's hard to find yeah exactly where these people are hiding and what they're doing because they're usually running solo and just doing it out of a passion but it certainly seems like some of those more government bodies are coming to the table with providing the resources and the guards that are free for download. It may have given me a whole bunch of things to pop into the show notes, if that's fine, I will make sure to reference all of those for quick access for anyone listening can just go to the show notes and find all of those accounts and go and have a look. You've written your own online course to how regular moms just like me learn about incorporating children into their spaces and making design choices that allow for both well put together spaces and raising children. I obviously know how epic it is to create your own online course so how has that process been like what do you think the impact of this course will do for your graduates? Thank you yes you you acutely know that it's a hard task to bundle up everything you know into a neat little package for someone else to value and enjoy and I really wanted to make something that was accessible for mums particularly knowing that it's impossible it sometimes feels that way to sit down and digest an hour of learning ten times over and make it enjoyable and fun you know we all need a bit more of a hobby and something interesting to do so knowing what I know I really wanted to come at my learning and my content from an angle of how to help other mums make their home more beautiful and more child-friendly and what I think sets it apart from other interior design courses is that thread of the child-centered design like you mentioned and also having a dedicated module around motherhood mindset you know tackling that guilt and that self-doubt and the comparison that's kind of never-ending and yeah I think I'm really proud of it because it has been a lot of work but it's also something that was important to me to create an accessible learning opportunity for people who know that they want to live in a more calming beautiful child-friendly family-focused space but don't have the budgets or the means to outsource to an interior designer at the moment and don't know where to start but I'm curious enough to learn and I called it "make space" because I felt like having children is so much about making space in your life in your head and your heart you know all you do is think and feel about your kids all day long how they're doing what they're doing if you're doing a good job and so I wanted to encourage parents to make space in their homes for their newest life stage and I wholeheartedly believe that homes can be family homes can be beautiful and practical and livable fantastic I think I need to do their motherhood module the mindset because it doesn't matter like I do think that there is so much we talk about the mother load and the responsibility on the you know being generosity but the mother particularly and then you take on that responsibility as well about keeping their clutter in mind and then you try to clean something up and then all of a sudden you're that horrible person who drag their best favorite things they haven't played with for four years out into the car boot in a garbage bag and you can't like you spend the rest of the afternoon with the lump and you throw it because you feel terrible but these things kind of need to happen so I think it's great that there's something out there that just addresses it can kind of give you some you know I haven't done the course I don't know if you're doing any particular what particular mindset work you're doing but the fact that that's not ignored that there is a mother load and that there is kind of a guilt mindset that comes with all the choices that we make in motherhood and being able to get that out of the way and then get on with learning some interior design principles and then applying them to bring or create a beautiful space that have your kids in mind because we talked for a million hour now about inclusion and then I find the practicality and the actual implementation in homes sometimes is yeah yeah yeah they're included but shut your bedroom door yeah or like yeah you're absolutely absolutely we're including the kids but please don't let it be my line of sight okay I want to see my toes yes correct and it really is it's no it's not anybody's fault and it's not about having a go at anyone for doing that and I'm I'm also guilty of it. I think I spoke to you earlier about when my son was born. everything that we bought for him was like natural timber tone, Montessori wood, because that was very popular in 2017. But then my child was born devout of color for the first like couple of months until I went, ah, he's a real human person who wants to play that he loves the wiggles. But I was like, oh, no, it's not very nice to look at. Like I didn't really want the color. But you have to kind of, there's a bit of push and sharpened. But there is obviously, thankfully, a solution and a way to do things that kind of incorporates everybody's ideas. Yeah, thank you. And like, you know, when you look at rooms like you're talking about, there's a real, for me, that real edge of like that signifier success as a mother, you know, if you have a really beautiful, expensive curated room, that means you're doing a good job as a mum. And it kind of heartbreaking to me to think that that's how moms might be going around the world to think that that's where their value is kind of tied to. And as you know, it's not because if you hear that your child wants this certain thing and it's not what you want, but they get it and then they're delighted and they just can't stop thanking you for it. You know that that's the bit that's filling their cup and and building their their sense of attachment and security as well. So yeah, I don't think, you know, if you if you look at Justin Terry design, it can be a band-aid, you know, you can come in and fit out a home in a room with beautiful things. But if you're not addressing some of the attitudes and the beliefs and the systems behind it, it's not maintainable and sustainable and it'll just come undone and probably leave a mum feeling worse. So it was important for me that it was very, very functional in the sense of understanding what what it means to you to live in a home that you want to live in and what values are driving that and what your priorities are and not being apologetic about that. I definitely need that module. Okay, last one for me. Where can my listeners connect with you directly if they want to come and chat about anything that we've talked about today or if they just want to follow along and get to know your brand a little bit more? Definitely. I'm on social media on Instagram. My handle is families in mind to design and I'm trying to share as much, you know, invaluable free content in lots of different topics relating to today and other FIO family-focused stuff there as much as I can. And you can slide into my deans there if you have a question or you have a specific client or an issue you want to troubleshoot. I'm really happy to be all ears and also my website which is if I am design.com.au. I have some resources that you can have a look through there as well. I'll pop all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, Penny. I've loved this chat. Thank you for giving me the chance to flesh it out a little bit more. I hope it's really valuable. Bye. Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. That conversation was so great. We also had a even larger conversation when Penny was a guest speaker inside of our private call with the frameworkers inside of my course, the framework. And she just is such a wealth of knowledge. It was such a joy. If you have any questions at all, you can come and see me over at Oliander_Finch. Check out Penny. All the links as promised are in the show notes. If you want to do some further research, there's quite a lot of resources and places to go where we can research a little bit more about universal design. It's a term that I'm only recently acquainted with that I cannot wait to learn more about because it really likes me up to know that when I am sending a final proposal or final documentation, I says, say over to my client that I've been working with that I can feel that I have taken everybody's needs fully into consideration. I'll be back in your ears next Tuesday. I have an episode you are not going to want to miss. I have broken down all of the analytics on Instagram and exactly how to read them because it's one thing for me to keep saying the data doesn't lie, check your metrics, do your marketing, put it into a tracker, know what you're looking at but if you don't actually understand what each of those terms mean and what the numbers are telling you, it can get a bit eaking. So if you are in those early years of using Instagram for business and you're kind of muddying through what each and every one of those terms means, come and see me next Tuesday. I'm going to drop an episode where I will run through everything that you need to know about your analytics. Until then, have a great week. That wraps up another episode of designing success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers just like you. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow @oleander_finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www.oleander_finch.com to support you on your journey. Remember this is your path, your vision, your future and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.