In The Way - Introduction Part B

(upbeat music) - Hey, welcome back underground. I gotta get back to the microphone 'cause I've pulled way back on that. Hey, welcome back underground. Let's start there. - Welcome back underground. - All right, for real. All right. - Hey, what's up underground. Welcome back. This is Brian and-- - Hey, my name's Corey. - Yeah. - Good to meet you guys. - We're trying to do our introductions for the feedback we got that we never introduced ourselves. Here it is. We are working on it. - Hey, I'm Corey. We already did it. - This is Brian. (laughing) - Now they're confused. (laughing) - This, not, that is confusing. - That's confusing, Corey. - If you can't see me pointing to you. (laughing) - This can really mean a lot of things. - Interesting. - All right, last week, this is Brian. Last week we did an episode with Damien Gurk. - This is a good Brian. (laughing) - Stop it. - All right, I'm sorry. - Last week we did an interview with Damien Gurk author of In the Way. Churches, we know it can be a disciple movement again, a disciple ship movement again. We would use disciple making movement again. And so actually it was the second interview we did with Damien. I just wanna reiterate that. I forgot to record that episode. - He was feeling really uncomfortable when I kept bringing it up. And he was like, don't shame the guy. And I'm like, no, this is what we do. - Yeah, this is what we do. - What I do, yeah, that's funny. - It's actually a nicer guy than we are. - Yeah, that's true. He was. That means maybe he's closer to Jesus. It's not about that, stop. Anyway, here we go. Is a super helpful interview. - I just want everyone to know that we just got a glimpse into the inner monologue or really dialogue of Brian's brain just for a second. Not only am I in the room, but hundreds of people will be listening to that dialogue. - So we are going to do an introduction episode. Damien's was kind of the introduction episode. We're gonna do a secondary introduction episode to say, we actually put some thought into an entire like series. That's like mind blowing. - Yeah. - I mean, we have kind of done that, but not really. - Not really. - You have an actual spreadsheet now though. - Yeah, this is blown my mind. I had a spreadsheet before, but it was just a bunch of stuff that didn't make any sense. This actually has dates in proposed topics. - Now the likelihood that this is real on. - No chance. - Yeah, no chance. - But we're gonna give it a go. - Yeah, we're stepping into this because, I mean, we have been surprised about the, I don't, effectiveness makes it feel like I'm bragging. This has been a good tool for us. The podcast has been helpful for both our network and other networks, just to chew on things in a longer form than like, hey, here's a training or here's a book or whatever, just to talk about this stuff. And so it's like, oh, all right, I guess we can try to be a little more intentional. - Right. - Except today. - Right. - Because we're just gonna have a conversation and see where it goes. - Totally. - This is introduction part B to a new series that we're looking at basically, I was French. Thank you. This is introduction part Bay. - What is that? - Espanyl. - Spanish. - Bay. - Abay, say, yeah, B is Bay. - Oh, you're-- - Oh, what are you on to? - It's like, that's like-- - No, it's like, that's-- - Bro, do you know? - That is funny. - Have you seen classic, what is that home alone too? - Of course I've seen home alone too. Why are we going here? - It's like A2D or whatever is buzz. - Classic. - I had a great buzz moment. So this is introduction part. - That one, funny. We should just go back to the book. - Okay. - Yeah. - So this is the second part of the introduction. - I wish I knew it in a way. - In a bunch of different languages that just starts rattling things off. So in the way part B, introduction where we are, we've got to just kind of use some of Damien's language to, as a framework, for more discussions about what movement looks like and then what it looks like on the ground. So we're going to have some different voices coming in. So we're going to continue to have spotlights, but we're going to be more intentional in the spotlights. So let's say we're talking about the concept of, going versus just coming. Well, okay. Who is someone where we're really seeing that happen? We might talk to my friend Casey, who's planted the gospel in a group home with a lot of people with special needs. That's a beautiful story. Let's have a spotlight about that. But we may invite another friend to talk about a different, maybe concept that Damien talks about that's maybe not necessarily spotlight, but kind of an interview. So yeah, so that's what we're going to do. - Yeah, so today we want to just go back through the topics, the high level, kind of headings that Damien works through and just kind of center you in on this. Again, we just want to say this, I think it'd be super helpful for you to pick up the book. This is one of those books. Like if, I don't think I said it last week, but I'll say it now. If I did say it last week, I'll say it again. Like there are five books apart from the Bible that I feel like are so helpful for the framework in which I live now. The first one, "Inti-right, surprise by hope," opened up this whole view on, what does it mean for heaven to invade earth? What does it mean for the kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven? So it pulled me out of this very narrow framework that salvation in the gospel is about what happens after you die. And so this is "Surprise by Hope" is here. It's present. It's affecting everyday life. So beautiful. So "Inti-right, surprise by hope." And then the divine conspiracy by Dallas Willard. So blowing open this disciple-making mentality, how do I really step into this? This is what Jesus called us to do. And what does it mean for us to live into that? Is that apprenticeship framework that Willard talks a lot about? It's a huge mindset shift for me years ago as well. Yeah, so those two books were like the beginning of the journey for me. And there's plenty of other books. And then it was giving me like top five. Gospel fluency became the language for me of understanding how does the gospel become good news to the everyday stuff of life? Not just again, what happens after you die? Starfish in the Spirit, the rob and lance and Alan wrote is like, you know, man, this gives you the leadership behind the work that we're doing. How do we structure for it? And now in the way is like this other book that is giving this helpful framework for moving from prevailing model into adopting disciple-making movements so it would go virally and see all of these things become reality. So it's not-- Yeah, these are like-- That's some high praise right there. Yeah, I'm telling you. And I'm telling you in the top five, I might throw a couple books personally of mine of-- Oh, like contagious disciple-making. Absolutely. Was it unbelievably huge one? David Watson, David and Paul Watson. But yeah, that's cool. In the way-- and we-- I think we talked about this last week-- it's such a great book because it does tackle the paradigm shifts. Right. But also gets pretty practical. Yeah. So what does this mean for the church? What does this mean for the average person? What does this mean for the average person who had sit in church versus the average person who might engage with people from the church? And so that's the big headings that we're going to tackle and spend a few weeks on. And the first one is what the church is-- that language that Damien uses, what the church is. And so actually, we're going to hear-- and just I think it's next week-- you're going to hear from Rob and Brian and Doug Paul. And Doug's actually in the other room behind us of recording a couple. Can I tell you-- is that a secret? Can you let the secret out? It's too late. Oh, man, I'm sorry. Doug's mystery is gone. Doug has here dug some cool, movimental type of dynamics in his network. And so we're just going to interview him and see where that goes. And they're going to talk about the idea of the church not being about location, but about being about, wow, there's got to be a better way of saying that. Identity. Identity over location. But some other concepts of talking about the reality of going versus inviting the reality of being a disciple maker instead of just an adherent-- And then here and to a set of beliefs or ideologies or-- Yeah. And just to pause on that one for a minute, we don't want this one just to be like, hey, here's like the full introduction. Yada Yada. Yeah, we're going to interview these people just to-- Hey, your book dropped. That's at least I have my book. [LAUGHS] So just to pause on this one and say, let this episode also be informative of where you are. We use sticky language. So we have all these little phrases that are helpful as we sit with people. I sat with a crew of seminary students yesterday, and I'm talking about what is the church and what isn't the church. And ironically, I actually took some-- I actually have a degree from that seminary that you're talking about. Yeah, they invited me back and-- But they didn't invite you. What does that say? But as we sit and talk about this first one, what is the church? The helpful phrases, you can't go to something that you are. Shift on this. Think about your own language. Think about the way that you talk about the church. When you have a conversation with me, of people in your network, are they thinking through, "This is something I'd love to be a part of." Are they thinking, "No way, do I want to be a part of that thing." (laughing) - I wonder if that translates well. - I don't know. - We'll find out. I'll bump the volume up on that piece. But another little sticky phrase is activity, or identity over activity, who you are versus what you do. It's about the family. So when we talk about, you know, what is the church? It's an extended spiritual family. - I have a funny story about that. - Do it. So my wife is a family medicine doctor, and sometimes they'll have to do tests too, I think, you know, if they suspect a mincephalian, things like that. So they'll say a word, and they have to, I think sometimes they have to draw a picture of the, you know, what that is. And so she is always, you know, church was one of them, and they might have to draw this building. And now she says, she doesn't even know what to do. (laughing) Like that she say that word, and then it's like, "Yeah, I'm saying, yeah, you can say that word, "if you wanna be, you know, wrong." (laughing) No, it's just, it is funny, 'cause that's just the funny, stupid story about the paradigm shift that understands identity versus thing, location, or something event, or something we do, but to understand your identity, really everything you do flows from that. And so that is such a big piece, and Damien talks a lot about that. There's another one that I think that I'd like for us to speak on. - Right now. - Is this idea, yeah. - In this moment. - In this moment. - Don't be scared. - Okay. - I'll be right here with you, okay? - Is the organizational structure of hierarchy versus network. And that is the language that we're actually not gonna dive much into that as a specific podcast, but that is something Damien talks about, is the reality of hierarchy versus network. - Why aren't we gonna do one on that? - Well, we can't. - See, that's why I only put dates for the next few, because we're totally gonna-- - Yeah, we should totally get into hierarchy versus network. - Okay. - Well, this is what happens when I make the spreadsheet, dude, of course. I think we're, I was thinking we're just gonna like target a couple of them here and there. We don't have to do all of them, but we can. - Okay. - But either way, hierarchy versus network. - Yeah. - It is something we're passionate about, because we, we, we are all about coming alongside churches, ministries, organizations, any way we can to help them step into this. - To burn down their hierarchy. - No, no, no. But we have found it is very difficult to actually see fruit. And, or we found the best way, at least for us, to see the kind of fruit that we're running for in gospel saturation in Kansas City, is that we had to kind of create something totally new. We had to create something that was a flattened, decentralized, networked reality that is not built on people at the top and goes all the way to the bottom. - I think we should do a full episode on this, because it's, I mean, we, thank you. - I appreciate it. - Yeah. - Also, Rob wrote a book called The Starfish in the Spirit, which is about decentralized structures and getting rid of the hierarchies. And the reason for that is, like, this is what, you know, this is the point of that chapter is, like, the current structures of the church are, are actually working against movement and discipleship in those ways, because when you centralize to certain people, there's an assumption that only a few people know how and can make disciples effectively. And we don't want to do that. We want to empower the margins. We want to push to the edges. We want to say, like, this kid yesterday he asked me, how do you let people know that they can go make disciples? How do you, how do you empower them? How do you make them feel? I forget the way he said it and I was like, well, I was like, don't take this the wrong way. You know, he's like, well, don't say it the wrong way. (laughing) - Did he actually say that? - No, but that's what I was thinking. - Again, a glimpse into the head. - Yeah, you know. - Johnson. - Like, we're starting from different assumptions. We're starting from different places. Your assumption was, how do I tell them that they can go do that? And my assumption is they already are empowered. They already are filled with the spirit to go do that. I don't have to tell them that it's okay. But hierarchy, that's the way it feels. You have the power at the top and you have to tell me it's okay. And the restructuring into the flat systems that we have assumed from the beginning, you're ready to go. So you've already been sent, how can we walk with you as you do that? - So what does leadership look like in a network like that? And we'll dive more into that as we invite you to. - Let's do an episode on that. - We should invite Rob in Lance. - Yeah, yeah. 'Cause we have our Lance on a podcast. - Yeah, you can just add that to your-- - Already did, look at that. - hierarchy versus network. - I love it. - So we need to move on. Corey's taken way too long. So a couple of the others in this one. And when we talk about what is the church is come versus go, adherent versus disciple maker, location versus people, hierarchy versus network, and then differentiation versus unity. So we talked a good bit about that last week with Damien of just like, man, what does it look like for the church to recapture unity? - Yeah. So we're gonna have Francis Chan on to do that podcast. - Probably not. - It's possible. - Maybe. - Maybe, probably. - And we've hung out with Francis before in an underground world, but no, that was a total lie. We're probably not gonna throw the orientation out. - No, but he did write a great book. That's why I mentioned that. - And that is also, it's not in the top five by any means, but it's a book. - It's solid. But our friend Jeff Vanderstilt might be someone that we talked about this. He was recently hanged out with a lot of us in Kansas City underground. And if you guys don't know Jeff, Jeff, you probably give me a 30 second version of what Jeff is about. - Yeah, I mean, Jeff has been a part of leading Soma communities in the Seattle area for last 15 or 20 years. Missional communities, micro churches, whatever language you wanna use, but really engaged in what it means to saturate the sound as their language. So how do we see gospel saturation in cities? And man, just here in his language that he was speaking over us about how to honor other networks and churches in the city and how to bring them together. It's like if you're speaking ill of anyone, you're actively working against gospel saturation. So check your language and your heart on those things. - Yeah, that's so good. - You check his heart. - You check your heart. Check that heart. - What's going on in your head right now? - That video with Trip and Tyler from like 15 years ago. - This sounds so. Check your, how's your heart? How's your heart? - Just to smell your guard, your heart. - Oh, it's so good. - All right, let's move on. - Let's move on. - Well, the church does. - Well, yeah, I wanted to mention the reason why - Actually, we're not gonna move on. - The reason why we went a little bit more in depth with introducing a guy that we haven't even technically invited to do that podcast yet is because this idea of unity, like if we're not just talking about new forms, like we're not just talking about, "Here's the new thing and how to do disciple making in church better." We're not about that, man. We wanna join what God is doing. And yes, we believe we need to act far more like missionaries who plant the gospel and fan the flame of multiplication and disciple making leadership development and microchurch is being formed. But we can't do that while just burning down the old system. So we're in this crazy, weird spot of being in the middle of trying to fight for unity but also do something different. Can I get an amen from somebody who's listening? - Amen. - You don't know what to do. I understand. I don't know what to do either. And so just inviting voices, even if they're not in the disciple making movement world, but fighting for unity while also pioneering new things, that's beautiful. We wanna invite Jeff to that. So that was all part one. Right, part two, what the church does. - Yeah, you know what, it's helpful. We always tell people churches and extended spiritual family period. And we say that because we emphasize, emphasize, emphasize, it's about who you are, not what you do. And then when I say, "But families do things." Our family does things. Like what, what do you guys do? - Oh man. - You always said the thing about pizza. You should get a new one. - Uh, but pizza's so good. - I do love pizza. - Like you guys, and you have a rhythm of making pizzas. - I make the dough. - My kids don't like any other pizza now, just mine. - I don't know how I feel about that. - Well, you haven't had it yet. - Have I not had your pizza? - It might change your life. I thought we were really good friends. (laughing) - I don't know. We do other things. (laughing) - But yes, like sometimes, you know, my family will gather with friends and family for microchurch stuff in the morning on Sunday. Then if we have time, we go on a little bike ride. - We always tailgate. He tailgate for Alabama things. - For all the way through the season. - Yeah. - Halloping your poppers. - Delicious. - Oh man, I'm so hungry right now. - But those rhythms were, yeah, you do things, but you're not necessarily defined by the things that you do. And that, again, I feel like this podcast is all about the tensions. - Okay. - We wanna be like this, but we gotta also be like this, but we need to not lean too much into that. - Well, we can't put the, here it is, the cart before the horse. - Me! (laughing) - That's a solid, contextually appropriate illustration. - Contextually appropriate, huh? You do a lot of cart and horse riding. (laughing) - I was being sarcastic. - I didn't pick up on what you were laying down there. - Sorry. - Thank you. - All right, let's go into these. - So a few of those are the idea of teaching versus training. - Right, so we love teaching. But what does it look like more to be a training movement than just teaching in from it? Not that teaching's bad, but it has its place, but man, have we elevated it to above anything else? So what does it look like to be a training movement as well? Also the idea of going slow. and not going fast, fast, fast, right, or slow to be fast. And we talked a little bit about that with Damien last week. And then I want to do a spotlight with my friend Guy. Guy, local Brazilian guy who has such a heart for immigrants and refugees in the city. And part of, he's really the head leader of our new hub that's reaching international in the city. And I just want to hear Guy's story. Like it's not just about program, he has such a heart for people. We just can't just go do programs. We need to get in the lives of people. So yeah, and then last day I want to talk about metrics. Damien uses the language of a Tinder versus disciple makers. What are we counting? And like, because counting, by the way, I don't think is a bad thing. Like there's numbers all throughout the New Testament. Like this many thousands of people here, this many thousands of people came to Jesus after Pentecost or this. And there's numbers thrown out all the time in the New Testament. But it's like, what numbers are we counting? And then what does that really mean? Does it really speak to our worth? If this many people are in a room. So I always tell people, man, I take five people who are sold out and said, I'm all in. Then a thousand people listen to my sermon. And that's a kingdom math thing that we want to validate, but also sit in the tension. Because it's so easy. Now, man, it's so easy to be tempted to feel like you're really validated or doing something really important if a lot of people are in the room listening to you. So if you're a leader, if you're a church leader, you know what I'm saying. It's almost like this drug of like, and then hadious. But you're feeling called to something else. But to leave that is, it's like leaving the drug. And there's good things with the drug. This is what the analogy breaks down. Like there's good things there that you don't want to just, but teaching is good. I have gifted teacher, but I feel like God's calling me to something else. So that's again, that tension where we want to validate these things, but we're going to lean hard into the principles of movement that we see in scripture and around the world. Yeah, for sure. So just real quick, those weeks will be on Corey's already said, I'm just highlight them again, teaching versus training, fast versus slow, programmatic versus personal. Or yeah, so I thought it's that person now. I was like, okay. And then attenders versus disciple makers. And then we're going to dive into how the church is led and developed. So this concept is, you know, we've, we've always, we've adopted systems of the church that are about professionals and that emphasize exactly what you're talking about, mostly the teaching end of what we call the A-Pest or the fivefold ministry. And so we're going to dive into some episodes with some man, just the people that you've listed there, just really the wisdom of years of leaning into the fivefold ministry and saying, it's not just about a small few professionals that can lead the church, but it's about every day disciple makers. It's about bivocational, co-vocational, non-vocational, right? It's about all of these different things. And then jumping into relational wholeness, what it means to control versus release, what does it mean to get into Christ's likeness versus competency and spiritual formation? And then how do we look at spiritual formation and disciple making movements? A lot of times we, I think people look at disciple making movements and they hear about how fast they spread and part of the concern, which is a valid concern is, okay, you got them to Jesus. They've crossed some line of faith, but how do you form them? Yeah. They're going to say, well, the same way they met Jesus, they're going to continue to discover and move an obedience. And that never finishes. There's not some higher level of teaching you have to get to. That said, there's still other things that form a holistic disciple maker. And oftentimes even we take it for granted because we're doing it, but we just don't talk about it a lot. No, that's really good. I'm inviting my friend Seth Bouchel back into this and he's already agreed to do it. Either a series or a mini series within a series. Ooh, that's where that actually works because almost every podcast, we're in a series within a series, but that's not true. No, we haven't done that in a while. This is true. It'll be a little series within a series. We're going to talk about spiritual formation and movement. Everybody's like, that's where they're going to get off track. Sort of, is it going to work anymore? No, but the reason why I want to dive into that is, yes, it's some of the concepts of spiritual formation from the harvest. There's also spiritual formation of the missionary where, so Seth came from much more of a history of missions than a history of church leadership. And it's just seeing people who go on the field and they're running after movement and they may or may not see any fruit, but they just get chewed up in the process. Right? So think about the context in America. How many times have we just used people to just go do whatever program or thing that we as leaders, and I'm talking to leaders right now, but there's probably a far more people listening to this that aren't, quote unquote, church leaders. But think of your own story. How many times have you jumped onto the next big thing and maybe you're just chewed up and spit out for the sake of the mission? And dude, as an apostolic leader, Brian and I can both speak to this is like, we're private and guilty. That's so many times. Right. We're just like leading people on to go to move away from the mic. Yeah. Yeah. Who was that? Yeah, me too. But I mean, and it sucks to admit that that the actual person is worth caring for. I guess. And the actual person is worth like developing and forming. And so that is a thing. You're saying it sucks to say that because you haven't like leaned into it. It sucks to say that I have been guilty of treating this regarded people. Yeah, exactly for the sake of the mission. Not meaning to. Sorry. I just want to clarify that because it sounded like it sucks to say that. It sucks to spiritually form people in a healthy, holistic way. So we're going to invite some people to talk about some of those things. We're going to invite Bill Randall back who was just on an episode that you heard and he's been doing that a lot of his life. We're going to invite our friend Chris Caputo into that conversation. This whole team here in underground called relational wholeness that really leans into caring for particularly leaders who are really diving into forming other leaders and disciple makers. And just we haven't had his voice yet. Actually, we have, but more through us. Yeah, yeah. Chris is always in our ear talking. He's like, Hey, you got you're telling the story of underground, but you got to tell this part of the story. Because if you're not telling this part of the story, then you're just going to have people go and start discovery groups and do things and and chew people up. Right. And that's a so much way. Usually I'm like, Chris, shut up, dude. You know, and there's so much wisdom that I actually think what makes underground unique is not that we're an organization that runs after gospel movements. It's that we're trying to we're trying to holistically care for both the missionary and the person who, you know, the people from the harvest come to Jesus in a robust, healthy way, which I can't, I've never, I don't know how to do. It's been fun to invite other voices like Chris and Chris. You don't have to do all of it. I mean, and that's the beauty of, you know, going back to the other leadership stuff is like, that's why we need the fivefold is because there are gift to people in these other spaces. And we need all of the voices for health and wholeness. Yeah. So it's been at least a couple of works on weeks on A Pest, the fivefold ministry in Ephesians four. And yeah, so and then hear a lot from Seth about formation and disciple making movements. I probably want to talk to my friend Phil Olessy. Just this idea of a control versus release. That's another topic that is that Damien talks about is like, often we just want to control things. Here's, here's the appropriate tracks that we have developed in our programs for you to run it. And what happens when you release people? That's a good things run wild. Like if that is a, if that's what you're doing, if that's just a culture that you create, then then God gets to write some of that story and not you and that his, he's just a better writer. He's a great writer. It's beautiful. So Phil has great story. We had Phil back in one of the first five episodes that we did. Yeah, that was. That was a forever ago. And I love my boy Phil. And he just has amazing stories of just releasing people into disciple making and what God did that. Yeah. For sure. All right. So we just walked through how the church has led and developed. So now into how the church engages with people. So the episodes that we would want to lean into on this, if you're, if you've already bought the book and you're leaning into appeal versus call. So go on that one for a minute. What do you mean? I like it. My brain went, wait, appeal versus call, which is that one. So looking at our, our buddy Matt Barnes on this one. So Matt's been here with the underground from the beginning. But just this idea of, I go, Corey, you're saving me. So the reason Matt's not necessarily going to unpack that topic. I wanted that more to be in a spotlight of Matt's story. So Barnes helped launch underground. He was like, I feel like he and Rob and maybe you were, you know, early on around a fire pit dreaming about a local missions organization. You know, that's an underground was birds out of a lot of those conversations. Brian, no, you're Brian. Matt is an everyday human. He works for the government. He ain't, I was going to say he ain't special. He is special. He's very special to me. But he's not a paid Christian. And he began to make the cyples and see a microchurch emerge among a bunch of friends that his kids play sports with. And so the idea is like, we're not just going to try to have a really appealing thing. I know that's the word. That's why I took that word at like that. Did it say it that way in the book like that? I don't actually remember. I feel like that's why it threw me off. I feel like he talks about it in a different way than you wrote it. Either way. It's not just about creating this incredibly appealing thing that you can invite people to. But it's again moving into those spaces and that you're called to move into those spaces that got us already placed you in and to begin to make disciples there. Not create a thing that's appealing to invite people to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. So the other spaces on that would be plant versus extract. I know this is a big deal for you and a lot of the conversations we've had through the last few years of. Do we extract people out of their networks? Do we pull them away from where they are or do we say, hey, you're already in the harvest and you just met Jesus. Step back into it. Actually, you don't have to step back into it. You're already still there. You exist in those spaces. How do you continue to make disciples within that network? And how do missionaries engage people in those spaces? So I want to invite my friend Lee Priceback. You remember way back in the day, Lee walked through some contending prayer practices. Lee is just awesome. We run with him a lot. He also does a lot of really great teaching on missional spaces. That's the language he uses. Where's we talk about networks. So we kind of talk about spaces and faces. Right. Or places and faces and maces. How far are you going to run this thing? And graces upon graces. Right. So we talk a lot about both the people in the places. He does too, but we're going to hone in on missional spaces. If God has you in a place, he's called you to a place. Then how can you begin to engage there? So it's a living as missionary idea, planting, not just taking people out of that world. And I want to have Lee speak to that for a while. Maybe get a spotlight of a friend of ours named Andrew out in Colorado who's seen some cool stuff in trailer parks that they've invested in. And you know what? So those are the major topics. There's a couple others that we might dive into after that. I was saying I looked at a couple of those in there, and they're also helpful. But I get that it's like it's a long way out. And you are doing your best. I got pretty bored. I mean, that's like you had to do some organization. You're like, this is hard. All right. There's one more. The final piece that we would look at through this is how do people engage with the church? And that's just a flip of what we were just talking about about how the church engages with people. So now the flip is how do people engage with the church as an extended spiritual family? So when you go through that deconstruction process and you're thinking it's not just a space or a place or a face that I go to, a face that I go to. Anyway, how do people engage with these extended spiritual families? Well, if you're in a family, you're not just a passive attender anymore. You're a part of the family, which requires active obedience. It's not just about knowledge sharing anymore, but it's about mutual accountability because we're in a family to be healthy. That's healthy and whole. It'd be healthy. That's such a Christian word that we would make up though. So it's a terrible word. We make up so many terrible words, mutual accountability. And then just what does it mean to engage new people immediately? So we're not waiting on, now you've been through the three year training. You're allowed to go speak to people about Jesus. It's like, no, that's like, yeah, I mean, I remember asking about this the other day. I remember meeting Jesus when I was in third grade. And this is the first time I would say, you know, well, and early on, this was the first time I got saved. I got saved a bunch more times after that. Of course you did. But now a good Southern Baptist. I'm sure you, I'm sure you. Now that's actually helpful language, or it's like, absolutely. You need saving over and over again. In that paradigm, it's like, that's not good because. No, it's okay. Yeah, love them all. But love all those expressions. But now it's like, actually, yes, we need to continue meeting Jesus over and over. And surrendering those areas that aren't fully submitted to his Lordship. Anyway, a different topic coming back to this. It's like, I remember meeting Jesus at the breakfast table with my mama. And then I went to school and man, I told everybody. I told everybody about this. And so, you know, it's like, that's the kind of permission that we want to give to people is, you know, immediately engage new people with this joy that you've found. Not wait to be trained on how to do it. This is going to be messy. That's cool. Just embrace that. Yeah. And they're the best. Yeah. The best evangelists are new followers of Jesus. That's just, it's just true. Like we really, movement in the more viral growth. The, the, the dandy lion type of spread of the good news is usually on the backs of people who have just recently tasted the good news. Maybe for the first time. That's just, that's just what it looks like on the ground. So I'm not saying it's the only people. I'm going to say I got some push. It's just what it looks like. The only reason I have pushed back is because I watch my mom and dad who have been followers of that. And maybe, maybe there's like two ends of the spectrum where there's like those that have, like just met Jesus. And those that are like, I've seen the faithfulness of God through all of these years. Totally. And so like maybe it, maybe the rest of us in the middle got some work to do. I mean, it's like, it's like most things that I communicate. I simplify it way too much. But there is, there is a huge truth and reality to the fact that people are just getting like transformed in just beginning to taste and see. It's like this, especially when it's totally new. They're just, they're just there. They just do it. They just tell people about it, especially if we release them well. So yeah, just I think so much. I don't know if I've used this analogy on this podcast. But I was, I'm a avid Kansas State football fan. I went to case state and had seasoned tickets for years and years and years. And I always thought of it. Well, years and years, you're not that old, bro. Bro, if you think years, like two years, one and two. Oh, okay. Years and years and years, two, four, six. You had six years. You made it sound like decades. No, dude, I had seasoned tickets since I was a freshman in college until about five years ago. So probably, you know, 15 years, check my mouth on that, who knows. But something like that 10 to 15 years we had, we're getting off track. But I was sitting in the stadium all the time and I'm wearing a jersey with the number one on it with my name on the back, because I was that cool in college. And, you know, and I'm a, I'm a passive attender. I'm cheering. I'm excited for it, but I'm, I'm just in the crowd. And I feel like so often church, that's the people we're talking about. And we're trying to engage people to actually put on the real jersey and come on and run on the field. And that's sometimes hard, even though some of us are longing for it. But sometimes it's when the people all they've known from day one is to be on the field. And then you think of how crazy and where it is to then tell them to go sit in the stands and watch. And that's what I think we do so often in our, our disciple making process is that we just take them off the field. We put them in the stands. We let them watch for a while until they've gotten fat in that shape and don't know how to get back on the field. And that's, I mean, what's that face of my, that I've been someone I do that sometimes. I don't know, that's just, but every analogy breaks down, but you see what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, I'm not. I was like, wow, that was just bold little harder than I usually go for. I guess I'll take. But that speaks to me a lot, that just that analogy of like my sitting in the stands or my playing. And man, movement is all about playing the game. Like we get to be on the field and we get to even if you're just learning, oh man, get people on the field. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. Yeah, so that's the end of this episode. Yeah. Bye. Hopefully that was helpful. Things in there and it's not just a full boring introduction. We had fun at least walking through this. It's been a while since the two of us have just done an episode or holding hands now. Okay. No one can see it. It's uncomfortable. Okay. All right. So join us for the next bunch of weeks as we walk through this. Again, we didn't encourage you pick up in the way. Pick up starfish in the spirit. Pick up surprise by hope. We're not going to do a series on each of those. And by the way, we are going to try to make this practical. We don't want to just, we're not going to be in the air talking about concepts. That's why we want to interview people who are actually implementing these things on the ground in various concepts and a lot of Kansas City stories. So I've got five or six here. I'm looking at the spreadsheet of Kansas City stories that are emerging in different pockets because we do want to put skin on this. And it's easy, especially with the way that we can look at this book because it's so intellectually intriguing that we could stay in the air for a while. But we're going to do our best to make this practical and get real life stories. Yeah. So good. All right. We'll see you next time or talk to you next. Bum, bum, bum, bum. [MUSIC] Thanks for listening to the Underground Podcast. We hope that it's either been and it could be. encouragement to you or that it's created a curiosity about what it means to live into a missionary mindset within the aim to make disciples and see the church emerge. If you're a missionary or a micro church in Kansas City and you're looking for coaching or just belonging within a network, we'd love to connect with you so we can learn about what you are doing and how you are joining Jesus for gospel saturation in this city. If you're outside the Kansas City area and have questions about what it would mean to catalyze a disciple making movement that leads to the emergence of micro churches and every network within your city. We'd love to connect with you as well and offer whatever resources might be helpful to you. You can find out more at kcunderground.com. Grace and Peace friends.