This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. How do you know that cloud won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry and you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson. I'm my new podcast, The Builders. I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13 on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women? I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season two of the podcast, Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants whistleblowers and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises. He looks at me and goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." I never received scholarship. I need to pay for my student loans. Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point? Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get worse with Kyle Pru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your better getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in blackmail, love, bombing, cloning yourself or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Listen to Get worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the host of Out of Character. The best podcast in the world. It's really funny. Yeah, really? Yeah, I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest two guys with mics and that's pretty hard to beat right now, but it's true, actually. Why should people listen to us? Tell them, well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical, you get all your news here, not, you know, the facts, but maybe our takes on it and everything in between. So listen to Out of Character on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. Andrei here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned betrayal weekly into an eight episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite betrayal weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies. And you can watch it every Sunday at 10pm Eastern Standard Time 9pm Central. Please check it out. On the morning of October 28, 2018, Sasuke woke up in the same bed she always did. It was the bed she'd shared with her husband for years. She felt her regular cotton sheets around her, and she opened her eyes to the same white ceiling. But this morning was different. Because the night before, Sasuke had seen something. I told myself this is really important and I need to remember anything that I can. In the middle of the night, she awoke in a haze to find her husband on his laptop. His face was a glow in the light of his screen. What was on that screen, she knew would change her life forever. I was so out of it, it was like I was in a dream, but I also knew that this was really serious. I told myself you have to remember this. I just knew and I passed back out. In the morning, she could still picture it. Flashes of one image ran through her mind. It was a window into a life her husband never planned for her to see. And so I woke up feeling so scared, like petrified. I didn't know what I was looking at, but I knew that he was doing something in secret. It felt like I was in danger, and I knew that I had to confront him and find out what was going on. That morning marked the end of a marriage, of a family, but with that ending, came a new dawn. Sasuke didn't know it at the time, but in climbing out of bed that morning, she was finally climbing out of the dark. I told him I needed to talk to him. I had his laptop and I told him what I had seen the night before. I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And I'm not going to tell the police if you totally come clean. And immediately the mask came off. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal season five, episode one, in the dark. This season is about a crime our team had never heard of before. That is until we heard about it from a listener. She was a woman in the Midwest, a mom. Over the course of a few months and many phone calls, she told us the story of what happened to her, and the crime she described horrified us. We couldn't imagine how anyone could do something so cruel to someone they loved. But then we heard from another listener, and another, and another. That mom in the Midwest wasn't alone. Dozens of women were discovering the same thing. The husbands they knew in the light of day were different people when the lights went out. One of these women was Saskia in wood. After getting to know Saskia over the last year, we drove down to visit her in Maryland. She welcomed us into her home. Today, Saskia has a full, beautiful life. She's got a great job. Two thriving kids, a house full of pets, friends who do anything for her. But it was a long road to get here. For a while, it was difficult to even leave her house. Being around people that just had normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about, I don't know what they bought at the store. It just wasn't where I was at, so it was easier for me to isolate. And everything went dark for me. Since that morning, seven years ago, Saskia's overcome something unimaginable, a betrayal that threatened everything. It was clear to me that Ms. Inwood was comatose, not asleep, but comatose unconscious. It was a betrayal that altered her sense of reality. It shattered her ability to feel safe in her own home, and even in her own body. By signing her marriage certificate, Saskia had no idea all that she was signing away. And that the man she was marrying would try to break her. On our trip down to Maryland, we spent a lot of time with Saskia's friends. She's had this same group since elementary school. For the most part, they haven't ventured far from home, which is Montgomery County, Maryland, about an hour outside of DC. This group around Saskia, they're her people. They've been there since day one. When we asked her friends what they love most about Saskia, so many of them pointed to one thing. That's Melissa, and here's another friend, Carrie. She has this, it's like not a cackle because it's beautiful. She'll be like, I can't even do it, but I think I was close though. Saskia's got a great sense of humor, and when it comes to dating, she's always looked for the same and other people. Here's Saskia. I always liked someone, you know, just making jokes, someone fun, silly, goofy, don't like to talk about work when I'm not at work, that kind of stuff. In her 20s, she liked guys with big laps, big personalities, guys who didn't take themselves too seriously. But yeah, usually that came with not being the most responsible people in life. Some of the men she dated were unemployed. Others had a habit of getting into trouble. I remember I had one boyfriend who was shoplifting when I was with him, and we both got in trouble. Even though I wasn't shoplifting, he felt terrible. It was like let her go home and they were like, no. When she was 28, she met the man who'd become the father of her kids.
We'll call him Chris. We met at a Jawork's concert. It's a reggae band. Chris seemed a little more responsible. He'd served in the army, but he was also the life of the party, just like the other guys from Sasuke's past. I thought he was really good looking and funny and silly, so we started dating and things went pretty fast after that. Within a year, they decided to move in together. And then, literally, two weeks after that, I found out that I was pregnant. Sasuke was thrilled. At the time, she was a social worker in child welfare. She always knew that she wanted children of her own. They had a girl, Alyssa. Alyssa was the cutest baby in the world. I'll have to show you guys pictures. You'll die. She was so just chunky and so cute. She and Chris wanted to make their little family official. And we took her a little stroller to the justice of the piece, and we got married. After that, they had another baby, a boy. We were ecstatic. We high-fived in the sauna-gram room because it was the first boy on his side of the family. And Alyssa loved her little brother, which was always holding his hand and pulling in places. Being a mom was a dream, but Sasuke felt alone in her marriage. After five years, Chris just didn't feel like her person. I felt like he didn't care about any of my needs or my wants. I've always wanted love, and that wasn't it. So she asked Chris for a divorce. And he basically told me you can leave. He didn't fight for her. Even though she had asked for the separation, it wasn't easy. They had a year's long custody battle. It was a very, very painful, difficult, divorce. I felt very unsteady and scared during that period. During this time, she leaned on her older sister, Marisa, of all the women surrounding Sasuke, all the people you'll hear from this season, Marisa, is Sasuke's rock. She drove Sasuke to every one of our interviews, and she sat in the next room while we talked. Just so Sasuke could feel her support. Sasuke is my best friend. Over my lifetime, she's been the one person that I can be myself around and say anything to, and I feel like that's mutual. When Sasuke first moved out, she stayed with Marisa. Marisa saw her sister cope with the separation. She was fragile, you know, definitely wanted it to work and did not want to be moving on and becoming a single parent to two little kids. I remember her crying a lot. But at the same time, she was strong. She went out and got herself an apartment. She networked with her friends. She found her resilience. I was really proud of her. Here's Sasuke again. I didn't wait very long after splitting up getting my own apartment before I started looking for somebody. I definitely wish that I would have healed from my first marriage, but I think that there was just so much work to do that I had no idea. I had to do that I felt like I would find the answers in another person. Marisa could see how important it was to her sister to find a partner. Companion ship is part of what gives Sas solace through to hard times, you know what I mean? That social interaction and being loved by somebody, it's like soothing. So I feel like she's always wanted that in her life. But Sasuke knew if she wanted a real partner, she might have to go for something different to look beyond her usual bad boys. So my sister helped me make a profile a match. Marisa pushed her to look for someone driven, established in their career. I was encouraging her to be choosy. She's always had professional careers and she's always been really great at her job because of her empathy and her compassion and her, you know, all of those strengths that she has. Sasuke gave match her best shot. He went on a few dates, but no one impressed her. I was about to throw in the towel and just say, "Man, I feel like doing this anymore." And that's when she found Mike. His pictures seemed really sweet. There was one of them with a dog, which of course, tugs at my heart and then he had picture of him with his two daughters. He was in the midst of the divorce, too. He was a single parent, a girl dad, and he had a good job. He worked for Bank of America and he was a vice president in marketing. Mike was the quintessential good guy, the safe choice. And safe was exactly what Sasuke was looking for. My wish in life was to have true love and to have someone to be a good stepdad to my kids. And Mike seemed like the perfect guy. If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, I'm living through an AI arms race. So I went directly to the people shaping that future. Elon Musk, Derio Aminne, Alex Carp, Feifei Leap, Omar Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel, and where they think this is all headed. Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us. But when you say us, who's us, is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, who's imagination do we want to live in? This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. Listen to The Builders, on the IHOT Radio App Apple Podcast, or ever get to podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours? Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world, and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that was surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. Because our opinion matters. And so does yours, and this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the IHOT Radio App, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your better, getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. But if you're interested in blackmail, love, bomb, and cloning yourself or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Take a listen to some of the incredible advice we've given so far. Fake a back injury. Get the spray tan, up your alcohol consumption. Only women should be allowed to have guns. Kill 'em. Kill 'em. Kill 'em with a gun. Listen, it's already over. I'm all about lying if it's something that really happened. The next time a bear is running at you. Just calmly, stop what you're doing. You look the bear in the eye, and you say, "This isn't you." Do not preserve relationships. You don't need them. You only need one thing, and that's the Get Worse podcast. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the I-Harm Radio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. But more than a century, Miss America sold the country a fantasy. Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. They said, "Goodbye to swimsuits, now, hello to lawsuits." I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's next top model. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America pageant. I've never received a scholarship, and I need to pay for my student loans. He looks at me and goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." It's great, but looks too ethnic. It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want to
the tale. An exploitation of our Miss America's is treated by the Miss America Organization as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to the curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Susky was ready to give up on dating when one profile caught her eye. Mike looked gentle. He was a girl dad with a kind smile and kind eyes. So I think I waved, winked, whatever you do and he responded back and then we started communicating and he asked for a date pretty quickly. The first date was casual. They met at a brewery and we were going to have a couple drinks at the bar. But that night the bar was packed. So they sat us at the most uncomfortable awkward to some spot in the restaurant. Immediately one thing was clear. He was not the type of person that usually go for it all. He was a little bit nerdy. He had a glass of wine and he was like throwing his wine which I thought was weird. He talked a lot about his job and things like that. This wasn't as joky as I'm used to. Susky was used to guys who would crush a few beers in the first hour. Guys who would have one eye on the game the whole date. Mike in his buttoned down shirt in skinny jeans swirling his wine was anything but. I just kind of wanted to get through the date and I remember afterwards telling my sister like he was nice. He's successful. Everything on paper sounds good. I'm not sure if I was there and I remember my sister saying if he's not your usual type that could be a good thing. I actually encourage tour to go on a second date with him. I said some guys are more second date material. Maybe him being timid. On the first date means he's a regular guy you know not everybody has to be a huge personality off the gate. Susky gave him another shot and in round two Mike started to grow on her. We were going to meet for a second date and I think I had something come up with the kids so he suggested that we have a phone date and grab a glass of wine and we can talk. I'm not a phone person and it wasn't something that I thought that I would enjoy but I thought it was really cute and endearing. By their third date they both were a little more at ease. They got sushi and the date went well enough that Saskia brought him out with her co-workers. My friend was having a little birthday get together and we drove over to the bar and everyone's just having fun drinking and taking shots. And after the party Saskia took my comb. He slept over. In the morning we ended up being intimate and I was like I can get with this I could do this. He was in really good shape. It felt like we had really good chemistry. It wasn't wild, it wasn't crazy but it just felt good. She started to see Mike in a new light. He made her feel safe and comfortable. And then it just kind of picked up after that. After a month of dating it was time for Mike to meet Saskia's friend group. This wasn't an easy crowd to jump into. After all they've known each other forever. Here's another one of Saskia's friends, Bridget. We just keep it real. We've known each other so long that we're not going to sugarcoat anything. If we see a red flag we're going to be like what are you doing? You're an idiot. Let me tell you what I see. Bridget's a tough critic. And knowing all that Saskia had been through she wasn't sure if she was going to like Mike. When she just got out of this one marriage I was very protective and I thought the world of him. I thought he was great and I was like finally she deserves this. She deserves to be happy. Here's another friend Heather. I liked him right away. I thought he was really nice. He seemed kind. He seemed gentle. I just thought he was put together. Marisa Saskia's sister liked him too. Normal guy seems even killed. He's not overly showy trying to impress us. He's being polite. He's being respectful. Okay. You know maybe this guy will work. With her friends and sister's approval any doubt Saskia had about Mike went away. Everybody from the get go thought that he was just a catch. Mike was a great boyfriend. He took Saskia on nice dates. Basketball games, fancy dinners, massages. He had plenty of money for us to do nice things and I mean we feel really special and important that he wanted to do these fun things with me and that I was worth that to him. But right as Mike started to get serious, Saskia pulled away. She was still in the middle of her custody battle. She didn't have room for one more thing on her plate. There was one time where I was having like a breakdown about stuff with a kid's dad and I just said I can't deal with you right now. Like I'm going through too much and he was like no I'm coming over. Let me help you through this. That night he went over. He wanted to be there. He said I will never hurt you. I will always be here for you. Don't run away. Let me help you. He showed up for her. She'd never had that before. From then on out, Mike was team Saskia. A teammate, a partner. Someone that was on her side. He helped me to feel like my life was going to go on and that I could have a positive future despite what happened with my ex. As friends and family got to know Mike, they saw just how much he had to offer. Here's her friend, Megan. He was like a knight in shining armor. I mean she did guys with a job and then you get Mike and he's like vice president at the bank and he was just like this stand-up guy with a great job and two kids. I mean it looked great. At the time, Megan was actually married to one of Saskia's older brothers and her brothers didn't really get Mike. They thought he was like a dork. They watch football, play cards, drink beer, and Mike was like this yoga guy who ate granola. The nerdy corporate type stuck out in this crowd. I mean he was just different and that's what every one of us thought was a good thing. Saskia needed different. Slowly, Mike was integrating into her world and she liked that. He was everything that I thought would be good for me, good for my kids and I did fall in love with him. It wasn't like the boom you get hit with this love from the beginning, right? It grew in a pace that I felt like was a healthy pace. As their love grew so did Saskia's comfort level. She could let her guard down. There was one time where we played strip bowling or something. I mean something like that it sounded fun at the time and it was kind of fun. Especially because I never had that with my first husband. I didn't think he desired me at all. So here this was and it felt like wow like this person that I'm going to be with like we do like desire each other and we can have fun and it is sexual and like that's good because it shouldn't be just a roommate situation. When he tried to spice things up, he was respectful of her boundaries. I remember one time he took a picture of me and showed me how good my butt looked or something like that and I explicitly asked him what are you doing with that picture? And he's like well of course I'm going to erase it I would never show it to anybody. She had every reason to trust him. They loved each other. When he would go to work in the morning he would always leave me like a note on my pillow. Saskia shared some of those notes with us. Here's a voice actor reading one. Half of me wishes that we would have met 10 plus years ago just because I think of all the time we would have had. But then I realized it just wasn't meant to happen back then. I am finally at a place in my life where I can embrace who I am and I just feel like you are the other half. The one who makes me complete. It is not easy to open up so much because you open yourself up to being hurt. But I don't care. I will do anything for you to know how I feel. After years of feeling alone in her first marriage, Mike's words meant a lot. He made it clear how much he loved her. Whenever he traveled for work, we always had a nice sweet kiss before he left in a big hug and we would talk every night and he would always bring me something from his trips like a bracelet or a little trinket. But there was one final test their relationship had to pass, introducing their kids. At the time Mike's daughters were 11 and 7. Saskia's daughter was 5 and her son was 3. They set aside a whole Saturday for the kids to finally meet.
- We met at Dave and Buster's in the mall. I brought my kids, he brought his kids. And his daughter grabbed my daughter's hand and they were walking around together and just so excited to show each other their favorite games and we had them pick out prizes at the end and that was their first meeting and they basically were best friends after that. - From that point on, they began hanging out more and more. All six of them. - Shortly after that, we were at my apartment and we had a power outage, no electricity and didn't know when we were gonna give electricity turned on so we all made a trip to Mike's apartment and so we had a little like family bonding there and it was really cute. We had to like figure out who's gonna sleep wear and it's little to bedroom apartment. It turned into a really fun time. - Mike's daughters started to feel like her own. As co-parents, Mike and Saskia made a good team. They balanced each other out. - He was kind of more the organized practical one. I was more the social coordinator and the nurturing fun mom. And so he relied on me for that and like I relied on him for saying like, okay, it's time to go to bed or those kinds of things. - Saskia always loved motherhood and she loved having a packed house. - I liked having the four kids together. It was like, your breakfast is like a little conveyor belt. I liked it. I liked being a mom of foreign. We were a family. I wish I could say that we had a happy end to our story but that wasn't reality. - If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. - I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race. Elon Musk, Derio Ammanade, Alex Carr, Faye Lee, Palmer Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they fear and where they think this is all headed. - Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. - But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? - They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. - This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. Listen to The Builders, on the IHOT Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen hours? - Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world, and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music, worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out, because our opinion matters. - So what are you waiting for? Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. - There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get worse with Kyle Proo is not one of those podcasts. But if you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, for a dastardly individual like you. Fake a back injury. - Kill 'em. - Kill 'em. - Kill 'em with a gun. - Listen, it's already over. - The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing, you look the bear in the eye, and you say this isn't you. - Do not preserve relationships, you don't need them. - Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the I-Harm Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - But more than a century, Miss America sold the country of fantasy. - Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. - But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. - They said, "Goodbye to swimsuits now." - Hello to lawsuits. - I'm Bridget Armstrong. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, an uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. - I never received scholarship. - He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered "in the eating disorder." - It's great, but looks too ethnic. - It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. - An exploitation of our Miss America's is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself. - Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the I-Harm Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (piano music) - A year into dating, Mike was staying at Sasuke's apartment most nights. - And then my lease was getting ready to be up and Mike and I both felt like it was just the natural progression to rent a place together. So we started looking and was really exciting. - They moved into a townhouse. His daughters started sleeping over too. Whenever they weren't with their mom, Marisa felt like her sister had found the one. - With him and her balance, she did seem to be like kind of becoming her best self. They seemed like her partners. She brought the energy and the fun and he brought stability and you know, it was a good match. - At the time, Marisa was going through a lot. She and her husband Ronnie were trying to get pregnant and Sasuke could see it was weighing on her. It was a lot of hope and disappointment regarding my sisters journey to have a child. She had so many almost where they were trying to do IVF. She would be so excited and a few weeks down the line, you know, they get the bad news and I could just see that my sister was not gonna be fulfilled without having her own family and having her own kids. So then after the last time that they told her, she didn't have any more tries with the IVF, I just said, you know, I would love to give it a try. - Sasuke offered to carry Marisa's child. From Marisa, accepting this offer felt like giving up her dream of carrying a baby herself. But then again, this could be our only option. Here's Marisa. - One of the things Sasuke said to me was you're comparing the wrong things. You're comparing carrying your own child with what is possible and carrying your own child is not possible. She knew what to push man. That was a big eye opener like, oh, yeah. I'm still mourning a loss instead of looking at what I can gain here. - After a lot of conversations, Marisa was in and Sasuke was excited to carry her baby. Of course, it was a big decision. It would mean carrying another man's child and it would change your body significantly. So Sasuke brought it to Mike. - I discussed it with him. He said that he was on board and that he thought it was a really loving, special thing to do. I also talked with the kids about it. You know, told them we were trying to have a baby. For Marisa, the baby might be in my tummy and we had this whole kangaroo book that we read to them and I don't know that they totally understood, but once everybody was kind of on board, we started the process. I think it made her happy to be able to do it and everybody was still amazed by what she was doing. So, you know, you're getting a ton of positive feedback and you're pregnant and everybody loves pregnant people. I think it was a good, happy phase for her. - Still, pregnancy isn't all smiles and Mike was there every step of the way, making things as comfortable as possible for Sasuke.
- Having a baby at 36, as opposed to 29, was different. So I'd have more like aches and pains. He would give me massages every night. He was there by my side for whatever was important to me and my family also. And I think it brought him closer to my family. They thought, what a great guy that he's not worried about how this would affect him, that he's gonna be there for you. - Seeing him step up during the pregnancy, deepened Marisa's respect for Mike. I was grateful for Mike when they were together and he agreed to participate in that process. I thought that was amazing. I didn't think a lot of men would do that and he was very supportive. Yeah, we call him one of the team. - When Saskia gave birth, Mike was right by her side. - He was there at the end of the delivery room bed. So he was like the perfect partner to go through this with. - The nurses handed the baby to Marisa. Saskia watched with love. Her sister was finally a mom. - I just thought he was so beautiful and I was so proud. And I could just see my sister like so proud. Like, this is my baby. She gave me the greatest gift in the world and I think she did that because of who she is, not because of any kind of sense of obligation or like, I need to offer this. I think she just felt my pain and wanted to step up for me and I think that is a beautiful thing. - After the pregnancy, Marisa and Saskia were closer than ever. And Saskia fell closer to Mike too. The care he'd given her confirmed what she already knew. Mike was a real partner. At this point, they'd been together for three years. But the two of them never talked about getting married. Neither of us were like Gungho looking to this relationship for a marriage. We didn't know if that was like the end result that we were looking for. We knew we wanted to be together. But as our families got really close, it didn't feel right to say this is my boyfriend. - So Saskia told Mike how she was feeling. - I was like, you know, it would really, it would be nice to be engaged. It would be nice to be able to say this in my fiance. - We don't have to get married any time soon, but it would be nice. - And Mike thought it would be nice too. With engagement on the brain, Saskia and Mike took a trip to Amsterdam. They wanted to visit Saskia's relatives. Her mom's side is Dutch. And a vacation felt like the perfect way to celebrate the end of the pregnancy. - We went to the Heineken Brewery, walked around, got Nutella, coffees, and went to the smoke shops. And I loved it because there was like cats and some of the smoke shops just walking around. I was like, this is my happy place. This is the best. - They even went at the Red Light District. - It felt like something that we were doing just because we were like, went in room. Went to this one place. They gave you like a ticket. And there's a hole that you look through in a wall. So I looked and he's looking at a different hole. And it was two people having sex. It was the least exciting. They had zero anything on their faces. Like they were just like having sex. And I was like, what the hell? Who wants to watch that? - The trip came and went. And despite conversations they had and the lead up to the trip, Saskia returned home without a ring. - There was a lot of really cool moments. Or I'm like, oh, that could have been a nice engagement opportunity. So after we got back, everyone was just, where's her ring? Like my brother was like, what's going on? What's going on? Kind of teasing him about it. And so I think that put in his head. - Shortly after that came Saskia's birthday. - We went to this restaurant with a bunch of my friends and we were sitting outside. And I remember I was like talking with Bridget. And she asked me about the trip or something. I said, look, I am about ready to just be pissed off because he knows we wanted to get engaged. And she was like, Saskia, just don't bring it up today. Just give it another month or something. Just be patient. Later that night we were in the bedroom when I was like getting ready to go to bed and he gives me this little book. And it's saying like all these things about our relationship, all the stuff that he likes about me and like he personalized it. And on the last page of the book, it said, well, you marry me. And I was like, but, and then I looked up and he had the ring. And it was a ring that I wanted. It was a Tanzanite. It didn't want to diamond. It was beautiful. You know, we hugged and kissed and I said it's about time. And yeah, and so it was really exciting. (gentle music) Saskia and Mike were happy to be engaged, but they didn't feel in need to rush to the altar or even get to the altar at all. They'd both already been married once before. Being engaged was enough. - I would have kept him forever fiance. There was no like, okay, let's plan a wedding. We were okay with taking our time. And it was that way for about six months, maybe a year even. And then it seemed like all of a sudden he was in a hurry to have us pick a place, pick a date. He was very insistent upon it. Once he set that in motion, we started going to like different venues and that started happening pretty quickly. And then we decided on the way really mansion. And it was just a really beautiful venue. - With most of the money going towards the venue, Saskia tried to save wherever she could. - Heather was making cookie favors for are there like two love birds? She's really good at making fancy cookies. I borrowed Bridget's dress, which she was happy about 'cause she spent way too much money on it and only got to wear it once. - Finally, the wedding day arrived. I got up, went to Nordstrom to have my makeup done. Bought some makeup, you know, I even do that. My sister's friend did my hair, all the girls hair. And then we all trucked to the way really mansion and had the bride's suite there. - The day was as much about the four kids as it was Mike and Saskia. - Mike had this idea to do a sand ceremony where basically everybody picks a color of sand. My son picked blue. The girls picked purple and pink. Mike and I each had a color. And everybody pours sand into this glass vase and just symbolizes the family coming together, merging into one family. - Megan, her sister-in-law remembers it as a beautiful wedding. - She seemed so happy and we were all happy for her. And we were happy for the kids that they had two new step sisters and we had new nieces. We were just so happy to integrate them into our family and it was official now. So it was just a great day for everyone. - But that wasn't how everyone felt. Here's Heather. - The entire night she seemed off. - Sitting in her chair, watching Saskia at the altar, Heather wanted to be happy for her friend. But to her, Saskia didn't seem happy at all. - The entire time that Saskia's up and they're doing the ceremony, they're far apart. - There was no hand holding, no loving gaze. - She looked so uncomfortable. - The thing is, Heather knew something the other friends didn't. The night before the wedding, Saskia had gone over to Heather's house to pick something up. But Saskia didn't seem like herself. - She seemed unnerved and I said, what's going on? And I thought maybe she was just nervous about the wedding. She said, and I can't remember, it was like the very night before or some night previous to the night she came over. She said that her and Mike had been out drinking and they went back to the house and they started having sex. And she saw a laptop was open and there were people on the screen. - For Saskia, the incident was blurry. - We were in bed. I can't tell you what was happening before after, but it was literally like a snapshot in time. - In a thug, she saw Mike on his laptop. And on his screen, there were two people. - And I didn't know if it was like a movie or whether he knew them. And I remember being really confused and saying like, what's going on? - He turned to her for a moment. And just for a moment, she slipped into a different reality. and he said.
"Oh, say hi." Coming up this season on Betrayal. "People were paying to see this go down." Sasuke had absolutely no idea what was happening to her. "You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband." For resources on sexual violence, visit Rain.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N.org/betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at
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[email protected]. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Labort, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Melcuri. Additional support by Carrie Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck. Voice acting by Steve Lewinsky. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Talvekio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by my music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry and you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson. Listen to The Builders starting October 13 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bridget Armstrong back with season two of the podcast Curse of Miss America. He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans. Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the hosts of Out of Character. The best podcast in the world is what they said. They said that. Yeah, they said that. The best podcast with two best friends who jabber and talk about topical, trendy, funny stuff, give our input on it. That's what you've needed. I think up until now, listener. Listen to Out of Character on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes I just feel like a burden. You're a bird. You fly. You're a morn. And we are Out of Character Podcasts. Dude, you messed up the clip. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making you better getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in Blackmail, Love, Bomb, and Cloney yourself are getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Listen to get worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Guaranteed Human.
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