In the Chair with Chloe Berry

Hello everyone and welcome to In The Chair, a podcast spotlighting Canadian business leaders and the lessons and experiences that have made them who they are today. I had the pleasure of sitting with Chloe Berry, managing partner and Brookfield's Infrastructure Group and head of the Brookfield Infrastructure Income Strategy. In this discussion, Chloe shared with us her remarkable career accomplishments from her early days in investment banking to now leading the capital markets and treasury activities for Brookfield's Infrastructure Group. We explored how she approaches investment strategy in a rapidly evolving global market, the importance of long-term thinking and infrastructure, the impact of AI, and her role in managing the fund. This conversation was so engaging and interesting and it's not one that you'll want to miss. I'm delighted today to be sitting down with one of my favorite people, Chloe Berry. Chloe is a managing partner in Brookfield's Infrastructure Group and head of Brookfield Infrastructure Income Strategy. For those of you who may not know, although I imagine most people have heard the name, Brookfield is one of the world's largest asset managers with over a trillion in assets and her management and 220 million of the billion is in infrastructure assets, which makes it one of the world's largest, if not the largest owner and operator of infrastructure. Chloe is responsible for their capital markets and treasury activities. She's also the portfolio manager and head of Brookfield Infrastructure Income Fund and we'll come back to that because this is a fund that Chloe launched very successfully and that fund provides individual investors and high net worth wealth investors with access to private infrastructure through this very unique platform. A bit of a backstory, Chloe and I met a few years ago and we have connected more recently and for those of you who haven't met Chloe, the one word I would use to describe her is stable and constant and I feel like no matter in what situation I meet, Chloe, whether it's over lunch or whether she's got her kids around or we're talking about work, Chloe is always calm and collected and it feels as though on the outside she always has everything together. I'm not sure how she does it, given her extremely demanding career to kids and her partner who also has a very demanding job but hopefully through this podcast she'll share some of those insights with us and give us some advice along the way. Chloe, thank you for sitting with us today. For our listeners, maybe to give them a sense of your journey and how you got here, it would be helpful to understand where you started and how you ended up at Brookfield. Thanks, Sarah and I think you must be one of my favorite people as well or I would not be in the chair opposite you talking about myself. After the next Chloe took coming in, 30 minutes. But here we are, so I love you too. Look, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to get to know you over the last few years as well, so happy to appease. So just a bit of background on me. I guess my path wasn't quite straightforward. I didn't know what I wanted to do from the age of five, so I did science at university where I went to McGill and I was also very competitive athlete when I was there. Well, what was the sport? It was bamentin. Oh, actually. I don't think I knew that. Oh, yes, I was very competitive. So I went to McGill because I had a national training center in Montreal and train there and effectively had to make the decision of whether I would play full-time or start working in fourth year when I, you know, reality hit on what are you going to do after university? Yeah. And so I decided that I would, as a science kid, I would try on campus recruitment for business jobs and see if that translated it all and kind of made, you know, a little deal with my parents that I would actually try to get a job and not be on their payroll anymore. Not on their payroll, which I would have needed had I done bamentin full-time. But if I got a job, then I would do that. And I was interviewing for sales and trading and investment banking jobs. And if I didn't, then I would do full-time bamentin, you know, Olympics route kind of thing. Wow. And I got a job. And could we was it obvious to you with a science background what a job in finance sales and trading would be? Because as a finance person myself with a business degree that didn't spend a lot of time in the finance sphere, I didn't know what that job would look like. And so, I think it's safe to say I had no idea what investment banking was. Yeah. Which is why I took the job. Yeah. I didn't know the hours and the intensity that I have. Look, I don't regret it at all. It was an amazing experience. And I think really provides an unbelievable opportunity to set a grounding for your career and that kind of base level communication skills, attention to detail, modeling, financial acumen, et cetera. But I had two older sisters who were five and eight years older than I am. And one of them went to Western and had a bunch of friends at the Ivy School of Business who had been into banking and sales and trading. So I had some. Yeah. They were amazing, setting up conversations with some of their friends. When I realized that I didn't really want to do science post undergrad. I didn't really want to continue on in school or be a professor or kind of take that route. And so I needed to find options. And so over the summer between third and fourth year, they set me up with lots of conversations. And I kind of thought, oh, my science brain, you know, it's not too far from a business brain, logical thinking and exactly. So so when in I'd say with very little expectation, but you know, was that when the investment banks came onto campus to do on campus recruitment, I was, you know, that eager keener with a friend talking to them. And I always made through it, made sure I threw in Babantin in my conversation with them so that when they saw my resume come across, they'd say, oh, the Babantin girl. That's a Babantin girl. Yeah. Like she actually could have a conversation. Like maybe we, you know, maybe we should bring her in. And so I really worked hard at those. And it worked. It did. Yeah. So you ended up in investment banking and you did that for a couple of years? I did. I did that for four years started in Toronto and then moved to London with with Credit Suisse. Migrated from Credit Suisse to two large multinational companies in London, one in the mining center and one mining sector and one in pharmaceuticals in MNA and then moved over to corporate finance, capital markets and corporate finance. And then after 10 years, well, nine years in London, my husband, who's American said, you know, we can look at moving back or we agreed we could look at moving back and and that's when I joined Brookfield to move back home to Toronto. Oh, amazing. And you joined Brookfield infrastructure? Correct. I've joined Brookfield infrastructure about nine years ago and have been in the infrastructure platform since got it for the benefit of everybody listening. We said you do capital markets and treasury. What does that actually mean? What do you have to do? What do you do? Day to day. Waited to still it down. So I kind of wear two hats at Brookfield now. One of them is capital markets and treasury, which I've been in and around for my tenor at Brookfield. And really what that entails is I'd say we look at three levels of the organization. So I work, as I said, within the Brookfield infrastructure platform. We have a publicly listed infrastructure company called BIP. Hopefully there's some investors listening. A great company. And so for BIP, I look at or my team and I look at capital markets' issuances. So if we're issuing debt, preferred hybrids, equity, we look at bank facilities. So our RCF and our banking relationships more broadly. FX and interest rate risk management, all of the public company. We also Brookfield raises private funds, private infrastructure funds. So we look at that level as well. That's our second level where we look primarily there at liquidity, bank facilities, and FX and interest rate risk management. The third layer of the organization is the portfolio companies. So we are in the business of buying companies, improving them and selling them again. And so we work with our portfolio of infrastructure companies on their capital structure. So how much leverage to put on the business? We employ a very conservative lever strategy, but how much leverage to put on the business? What debt products to use? What banks to use to access the market? When to access the market? And so we work with our, call it the C-sweets at our portfolio companies on their financing and capital structure and risk management, really. How many portfolio companies are part of the fund? So within the Brookfield infrastructure platform, today we probably have over 50. It's a lot of teams to be managing, right? It is, but it varies. So certain management teams are smaller. It's maybe a smaller company with less kind of capital markets and treasury expertise. And so we will play a much more hands-on role. Others, we may have taken a multi-billion dollar company private that was public. And so has a fully fledged treasury, incorporate finance and capital markets team who can do what they do. And we really act as a sounding board to them. Ultimately, we're responsible for the financing, but the level of day-to-day interaction and hand-holding, we have to do is very different across our portfolio companies and regions. And we have people in Australia and Brazil and India and Europe that help us kind of manage that in those local jurisdictions, as you can imagine, financing's change, given market dynamics and kind of local customs. And so that maybe to clarify, you do have portfolio companies across the globe. Correct. Brookfields in 30 different countries, infrastructures, and most of them. So primarily North America, certain countries in South America, Western Europe, and India, Australia, New Zealand, and certain Asian countries. So Korea, Japan, that would be the big one. And so that means you travel quite a bit. I do, but I actually tend to travel more for my other role than I do for that one. Oh, interesting. Okay, so tell us about the other role then. So in my other role, you mentioned it at the start in your very flattering thank you introduction. So I head up a fund called the Brookfield Infrastructure Income Fund. And this is a fund that provides individuals or the private wealth network. So I think private banks, wirehouses, with access to our Brookfield infrastructure platform. And so it's the first time we're really offering in infrastructure. And we are one of the first funds to market to offer access to really the individual access to private infrastructure. And so about almost four years ago now I was asked to structure and bring this product to market. And so we spent a year doing that. And then we've been in market since raising raising capital. And how big is the fund Chloe? This strategy now we have a kind of two ways to access it through international and then through the US. But we're about six and a half billion. Wow. In four years. Three years. Three years. That's really impressive. It's amazing. Well, it's been really fun. Yeah. And it's giving access to a group to an asset class that didn't have it before. Correct. So it's changing the market pretty significantly and setting standards for other players. Like has anyone else done something similar? Yes. So we, so it's an asset class that institutions have been invested in for a long time. And has been really a cornerstone of your pension plans and insurance company and sovereign wealth funds allocations for a while. And so because the check sizes are so big. The check sizes are so big. The asset class is a fantastic asset class, which we can go through if of interest. But really it we partnered and we're speaking with big private banks around the world. And our infrastructure platform is unparalleled. We have the best infrastructure platform in the world. And so they said, you know, we want our clients to have access to private infrastructure and all the benefits that come with it. And we think you guys should should do this. And if anyone can do it, you guys can. And so it took us a few years to wrap our heads around doing this. As you can imagine, it's a highly regulated product to provide individuals with access to private assets alternatives. And then once we did, you know, took us a while to structure this fund and bring it to market, we were the first official one really to launch. Yeah. Now it feels like there's a new infrastructure fund for private wealth coming out every other week. But obviously they all pale in comparison to ours. Look at Brookfield. Is your team spread across the globe then? Brookfield is a very flat organization. And so we have people helping and working with us in different capacities. Okay. So if we take the capital markets role and the team there, I said we have people in, you know, Brazil, Australia, Europe, India. Some of the teams there will have local capital markets teams in Brazil. And in Australia, that actually work for all of Brookfield. So they'll work for the infrastructure platform, renewables, private equity, real estate, because they are really local markets, capital market experts. Yeah. And so there are people that might be do more infrastructure, some that do more real estate, et cetera. But they don't necessarily report directly into us, but have kind of dotted lines and help us when we need that with local markets. And then in India and Europe, it's more infrastructure people sitting in those seats that work with us on the financings in those regions. And then similar on EII or Brookfield infrastructure income, which we call the EII, we have teams in all over the world that are contributing to the fund, the biggest being our sales network. Obviously to go out and sell to individuals and $2,500 tickets, it takes a lot of calls. Yes. And so how do you, do you have an approach? Or I know you're very thoughtful. And sometimes you and I chat about this before, Chloe says, I just do it. Like that's just how I am. So part of it feels like it's so natural to you, and that's just who you are. But if you had to reflect on it and think about it, what do you think you do to sort of create these teams across the globe that need to be high functioning and reactive and sophisticated experts in their local jurisdictions, but also see the same vision and strategy that you are thinking about sitting here in Toronto. How do you build teams like that and how do you keep them motivated? It's a really good question. We have within Brookfield a very strong culture, and that's really important to us. The main point really being is that we all, I'm really bad at saying so we all row in the same direction. I think I got that right. Yeah, I'm good rowing and thinking so never rode, but I tried it. And so we really look for people that don't have or don't view their jobs in a box, don't quote the job description and what they will or will not do. We really look for people and I do in my team that are driven just to make Brookfield a better place. And that's a really incredible group of people to work with and to have. It means there's no egos, there's no self-promotion. Everything is about how can we make Brookfield a better place, how can we make those around us better at their jobs? Part of the reason why this is so uncomfortable with me talking about me is because it's not in our nature. Exactly. It's about the institution and growing together. Exactly. And I think it's such a unique environment where everyone is just trying to make everybody better at what they do. And it's really hard to believe, I think, from the outside that an organization can exist that way. We've been fortunate. I think that we've been growing and so there's always room for everyone. Your roles can expand, you can take on more. I look at BII, as I said, a six and a half billion dollar fun strategy with a team and everything in place that didn't exist four years ago. So there's always stuff like that we're doing, we're innovating, we're giving people new opportunities. We work hard, do it and we put in hours and we put in brain damage to get things right and do the best we can, but with it comes an incredible amount of autonomy, responsibility, and if you look for those people that are willing to really be part of the team and do what's needed and flex up to a managing partner level and down to an analyst level. Yeah, willing to love those days because that's just what's needed and if that's what's needed, that's what you do. It really creates an unbelievable environment. And that's why people stay for so long. I always find it amazing when I talk to people at Brookfield, how many of them have pivoted within the organization to different roles and have tried new things. And I guess that's part of their sort of what they bring to an organization is when you are able to sit in different roles and have different hats and different lenses, which you're able to view things. Yeah, you know, I had a conversation with someone in my team, actually the most junior person in my team today, actually this morning, just about how, you know, I'm going to move the responsibilities in my capital markets team around within the group, kind of the more standard activities around within the group so that we have, we build in redundancy. People know how to do different things in the team so that when one person says I'm ready for that next challenge, we can easily let them go. And I don't have to say I can't let you go because I need you here. I never want to be in that position. And I think we are very good at Brookfield with ensuring that we create that space. And so I was talking to, again, the most junior person in the team, but saying like, look, I'm moving around the more senior people's roles in the team to create space so that one of them can move on and you can step up into their role. And, you know, that's what we're seeing for you. So, you know, proactively giving people opportunities to grow. Exactly. And we're always, you know, I every review, I have mid-year review, any overview, catch ups with my team. I'm always saying, you know, let me know when you're ready. Don't let me know the day you're ready because some of these things some time. Yeah. But, you know, if you're going to be ready in a year, 18 months, two years, you want a new challenge, you want to try something new, that's okay. Just let us know when we'll start putting feelers out. We'll start making sure that we create that space that you can move on. And, you know, it's, it's really fantastic to work in an organization like that. I mean, at one point in the middle of my nine-year tenor at, at Brookfield, I was asked to go and cover a maternity leave to head up our fund administration, our fund operations team, which is really a group at the time. It was 40 accountants. And I'm not an accountant. Yeah. And you did it. And, and I did it. And I did it. And I did it for 18 months. Then they asked me to come back to capital markets. So maybe I wasn't the greatest. But they could pluck you and move you. Exactly. And it didn't cause too much disruption because of the mentality that people have there. And, and looking at it. And it, I would not have seen it. I was actually very thankful at the time because I got exposure to that in a fixed period. I could not do reporting every quarter for the rest of my life. I'm very thankful for those that can. Yes. But you have an appreciation for that job. And what it entails. And definitely and I got exposure to it. And it actually helped me when we were launching BII or the Brookfield infrastructure income fund. It helped me immensely because I understood how to structure a fund and how it worked and how you report and how you, I mean, we don't call capital in BII, but how you call capital and how you report results and everything was, was invaluable to my experience on this. So it all builds, right? Different experiences. So when we talk about infrastructure and I think about infrastructure, our traditional and typical view of infrastructure is sort of hard assets, right? So railroads and bridges and toll roads. But more recently and with the introduction of AI, infrastructure looks a little bit different. So we still have those traditional categories, but we also have, you know, data centers are hot. So talk to us a little bit about how Brookfield infrastructure and you are thinking about infrastructure in this new, technologically advanced world we are living. And and what that means on a go forward basis. And is it changing the way you were thinking about investing? Just to start, is it helpful if I just go like, what is infrastructure? How we view it, just so that the audience, because often I find, especially, you know, as I talked to individuals who are investing now, they kind of say, well, exactly like you said, what bridges and tunnels? Is that not what we're talking about here? So just to give people a sense of what we're really talk about, when we talk about infrastructure and you're very right, it's data centers, AI infrastructure, it's all very topical right now. So we could talk about that for three hours, but I'll touch it just quickly on what is infrastructure for. So infrastructure and its most basic sense, you can think about it as networks and systems that transport stuff. So that stuff could be goods, could be commodities, people, data, so very relevant data. And effectively, as the owner and operator of the network or system, for the most part, we just get paid a tolling fee for our customers to transport their stuff on our network. So we don't own that stuff. We just maintain the network where our customers can transport it. And so what that really parlays into, if you think about kind of sectors, you do have your traditional transportation, so bridges and tunnels. For us, it's really more ports. We have some, we do some toll roads, rail airports as well. We don't own any, but airports would be transportation. It's also utilities. So that's another one, people kind of think about when you think about infrastructure. So could be electricity or gas transmission and distribution, things like that, midstream. So pipelines is a big one, gas storage. And then more modern day infrastructure being the data infrastructure sector. Now modern day, I mean telecom towers has been a known infrastructure kind of subsector for 20 years already, but it really spans telecom towers, fiber networks and data centers. And so that's really the universe of what we're talking about. We also include renewable power in that as well. So for instance, my fun Brookfield infrastructure income does both all four of the kind of utilities, transportation data, midstream and renewable power and transition investments. In Brookfield, we have a pure play renewable company. So it sits a little bit alongside the infrastructure group, but we would consider that one in the same as well. So coming back now that we know what is infrastructure. On the AI side, AI build out is immense. Everyone's talking about it. The amount of capital that's required to build out AI is really remarkable. But most people, they think on the face of it from an infrastructure perspective, it's data centers. Yeah. And it is. It is data centers. We have a huge data center platform. We have multiple companies. There's an incredible amount of capital that's required there. But it is so much more than just data centers as well. Just about that. Because you hear about data centers a lot, but you don't hear about the other supports in place to probably facilitate some of that. Yeah. So I think the other one that people are starting to talk about, especially if you're in the industry is power. Yep. Right. The data centers take up a lot of power. So learning, yep, they take a lot of power. And so it's where is this power going to come from. My husband reminds me every time I use chat GPT. How much more power than typical Google takes to generate one response to a chat GPT question. But it's so much fun. It is so great. I actually don't know what we did before. You know, I can't stop when I'm writing chat GPT and it asks me if I want to follow on. I can't stop saying, please, and thank you. Yeah, I know. You have to be polite because you think you're talking to a real person. They also make me feel smart. That was a great question you asked. Yes. Thank you. Validation. Like, yes, please follow up with that. Totally. Why are you writing, please? Okay. So, um, so yes, so it's the power gas renewables nuclear. We need more power. And there's lots of things driving more power, but including AI. This is a big driver. But then it's also midstream and transmission assets. So, you know, if it's gas firepower, how do you get the gas there? You get it through pipelines. If it's electricity coming from renewable power generation, how do you get that renewable power from its source to the grid? And from the grid to the data center, that's electricity transmission. So, pipelines, electricity transmission, that's infrastructure. The data centers, infrastructure, as I said, renewable power buildouts infrastructure. We do nuclear servicing. That's infrastructure. And so it's just a huge amount on that side as well. And then you think about it, um, I mentioned towers and fiber. Yeah. Right. You need to get the data to the end customer. Right. Our cell phones are pinged by tower signals. We need the 5G build out. We need to get to rural areas. They need to be underpinned by fiber connections to our homes. And so that is all infrastructure. And so there's just a huge amount of spending across the whole kind of supply chain of AI. And that's even just getting it to the shell of the data center, right? And the next stage is going to be what's inside it, right? And does that or is that and cannot have the characteristics of infrastructure, you know, long-term contracts that pay you back your capital, you spend to build a plus a return of capital with investment grade counter parties, inflation linkage. Can you get all the things that you want from an infrastructure investment inside the four walls of a data center? Yes. A lot of things to be thinking about. It is. Yeah. And so, given how quickly things are changing and the fact that you have a global platform, are there sources of news or information that you take in consistently, that you would recommend to anybody who's interested in the infrastructure space or investing? Definitely. I mean, I live and breathe it every day. So part of it is just. And if you're not listening to infrastructure, like, what else do you tell us what you listen to? Yeah. So first, I would say part of my daily routine is walking to work. So I live about five kilometers or three miles away. It's probably fast and taking the subway. It's a little slower. I'd say my commute on the subway. I don't drive in. So my commute on the subway is kind of the call 30, 35 minutes. And my walk is 50, 55 minutes. Oh, amazing. I used to run, but as I get old, now it hurts my neck. So I walk to carry stuff with you. And yeah, it was okay. I managed the logistics, but the injuries and the painfulness now has stopped me running. But I walk. So I'll walk in and I have a rule where my commute to work. I have to listen to news and things that are going to better my brain and mind. Yeah. And then on my way home, I'm allowed to listen to whatever I want. Which is, which also let's get into like, what is the whatever you want when you can choose and you don't put boundaries around it? In terms of infrastructure, kind of information and where to kind of get smarter on it. Brookfield actually has a podcast. It's called Brookfield Perspectives. Okay. They didn't tell me to say that. That's when I actually listen to when I see it come out. That's great. And quite a few of our episodes recently have been on AI infrastructure and infrastructure more broadly. And so that's a really good place to go. They're kind of 20 minutes. Easy listen, you know, if you're in the airport, kids activities put in the headphones. The other one that has, you know, kind of 20 or 30 minutes on specific topics is infrastructure investor, both those you can look up on, I don't know, wherever you get your podcasts. My personal side, again, I have to listen to news. So if it's an on infrastructure on the way in, I have a slate of news podcasts that I'll filter through. And sometimes I just see the one line or heading on what they're looking at. But I really like morning daily brew. It's called and it's kind of a light hearted. Actually, it's two guys. They do a podcast just on topical stuff. It's kind of 20 minutes, 25 minutes. And yeah, it's just a bit more lighthearted, I'd say. But still hits all the headlines. I listen to the CN the CBC as well to 10 minutes. Canadian news get that one always in. And then I'll cycle through whether it's morning daily brew or the economist, Wall Street Journal, one or two or sometimes three. Yeah, depending on how long they are of those kind of news things to try to hit, you know, the headlines on my way in. That's awesome. We talked about how much you have on your play. You're managing almost like four different streams. You're traveling. You've got two young kids. You've got a partner who's very busy. I said this at the beginning, but on the outside, it looks like you figured it out. Like you have it together. Your voice doesn't really go up and down. It feels very level, but I'm just confident it's not like that all the time. And it may not be like that behind the scenes. So are there things you do to stay resilient through the busyness of your career and life? And do you have any advice on people who may be challenging, sort of have challenging careers and lives on how to find moments to pause and reflect and focus on themselves? It's a good question. I think for me, my walk to work in the morning is a big one. It's, as I said, it's about 50 minutes, 55 minutes. That's where I carve out the meat for myself. Now, like half those days, I'm on calls on the way in, right? I can't take a call on my walk in where I need to be at my desk quiet, but if I'm taking, you know, a call on a financing in India with the team or something like that, or I have to call in to, you know, a results call or something where I'm just listening in. I'll do that. So about half my mornings, I am taking a call or two on the walk in, but it's getting my legs moving. The fresh air is really important for me, but I've just figured out that's what I need. If I don't move my legs and get some fresh air, I start getting, you know, antsy. Yeah, I'd say. And that's me. The other thing is that what I've realized over time, for me, it's not everyone is the same. You need to find your groove and what works for you in different ways. For me, I realized very early that, you know, getting home for bedtime, if I can only make 20 minutes, is not worth it. Yeah. I find it very hard for me to switch from work to home for that short area, short period of time. Okay. If I still have work in my mind, I'm just short disconnect. Yeah. And then, you know, for me, I want to go home, I want to hug from my kids. I want to say, I love you. How's your day? And they say, oh, mommy, we love you too. How was your day? And then I say, great. Now, you can go to bed because mommy has to log back on. Yeah. And that's right. And that's you. That's really hard for me. Some people can do it much better and they really strive to leave for bedtime. For me, I would much rather, if I need to put in a few nights of longer hours, and then a few nights where I can get home a bit earlier and spend more time where I have that time to switch. Yep. And weekends, I'm very present. So I would much rather work longer at night on, you know, Thursday night, Wednesday night. Maybe I missed a bedtime, but I'm there on the weekend. I catch up. So, you know, I people have said I have lots of energy. And they don't know how I could do it through the day and then go away. But that's just me, right? I don't, I don't need naps on the weekends. I don't need things like that. Like I am present. I'm taking my kids to whatever their activities are. If it's not an activity, we're going to do stuff. And that's where I carve it out. Whereas other people, maybe they don't work long hours, but they don't put in time on the weekend, or they either downtime or away time. I'm okay going, but that's me. Yeah. So figuring out who you are, maybe what's important to you in order to function in high stress, demanding environments, and then what matters. Yeah. And what matters, you know, people ask you, what do you do outside of work? And I'm like, I walk to work. But, you know, my priorities right now, I got young kids in a job, so it's work, it's family. And it's getting my life changed right in 10 years. You'll be in a different place and you'll reassess how you spend that time. Totally. So I have, you know, a million more questions for Chloe, but I also appreciate that we're we're getting close to time. And so maybe I'll ask you one more thing before we wrap up Chloe. When you think ahead the next five or 10 years, what are you most excited about? Professionally, personally, what's ahead for Chloe Barry? So I would be remiss if I didn't cover, you know, the personal aspect, which is my kids. I got a 10-year-old and a six-year-old at home. It's wild to hear, you know, to think that in 10 years, my son could be graduating from university. Hopefully he goes. Yeah. I think around five years we'll be figuring out if he's going to go. And my daughter will be, you know, I don't know, it's with Episode Junior, a senior in high school, right? And this is the people that they become. And so that's definitely exciting. I love watching them, watching them grow. And I think infrastructure, you know, and work side, you know, I'm just open to interesting challenges. So I don't have a view of where my job's going. I just look for, you know, what's interesting, what's interesting is where I'm going to learn. And so it's more, I think, for me, and I'd say more the sector. And as we talked about kind of the AI, you know, the data centers, the transmission, the power, et cetera. But we haven't, you know, touched the surface on kind of what's inside the data center. That could be the next for A. But who knows, as I said, you know, data infrastructure wasn't a sector really 20 years ago. So 10 years could be, the world could be a different place. We'll come back and do this podcast. We should go ask chat GBT. Please chat GBT. Tell me where it's going to be. Where are the jobs in 10 years? Chloe, thank you so much. I know you're busy. Chloe's traveling. So to carve a time to come and sit and chat with us and let our listeners benefit from your wisdom is very kind of you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Always good to see you.