In Conversation with Sam & Lora (Master Type and Media)

My name is Polina, I study graphic design and trial academy of our in the Hague and you are listening to a series of podcasts with currently enrolled students which aim to bring insights into the programs of different departments of our academy. Happy to have you with us and yeah let's go! Welcome everyone to another episode of Inconversation Podcast. Today I will be talking to type and media students. I have Sam and Laura and welcome and it's nice to have you today. Thank you. Thank you. So I started each of my conversation from an introduction so it would be good if each of you could tell me a little bit about yourself. So where do you come from? You can mention how old are you? We also know that type and media is a master program so I assume you also have some sort of a background in it. Different education before you came to KBK so yeah who wants to start? I'm Laura, I'm a part of type and media master program, the type design master of the academy. I'm 26 years old and I'm originally from Bulgaria. I graduated with Bachelor in graphic design last year and what brought me to the academy is the master cell. I got to know letters through calligraphy and then I learned about type design. My mentor in Bulgaria, Borja Kariva-Nov, who is also the organizer of a type of best conference, taught me many things about letters and also told me about the program. I also met Chris Tarodova, a type and media alumni so I wanted to know more about type design and I thought this is a good next step for me to apply here. And your previous Bachelor in graphic design also started in Bulgaria, right? Yes and I also did an arrestment since Spain in exchange. Okay, great, how about you, Sam? I'm Sam, or Sam. I'm 23 years old and I'm from Brussels, Belgium. I studied graphic design, I have a master in graphic design and a bachelor I studied at Leuquer School of Arts in Gens, where I met Fredrik Berlan, who is also a type media alumni and he introduced me to the program type media. It's all, I mean my interest in type design sparks with the revival assignment, we got an a third bachelor and yet really fascinated me how it's wonderful how you can create a tool with just starting from scratch. And he is also a very good coder and I'm also very interesting coding and Python and programming languages. So actually it was a perfect match. So I applied for type media two years ago, a one year ago now when I was doing my master and he thought the chances were pretty small that I will get in because I'm only 23 and most of the time they take only like more professional people who have like professional experience. So yeah, and actually I was surprised and I'm really glad and happy that I'm here in type media now. Congratulations, you know, that you got in. Okay, that's great stories and maybe let's jump to the talk about your department itself. So we know that it's one year master program, so I can assume it's probably pretty intense. So maybe you could both explain me when explain to people who are listening to us, like, yeah, what, what classes do you have? What's the week of like type media student? How it looks like? Differs a lot from the first semester and the second semester in the first semester we have like seven or eight classes. Some start like in the second part of the first semester and continue until the first part of the second semester. If I'm right. And yeah, the second semester is mostly about our graduation project. So I think we have some small for some classes, we have small assignments for other classes. We have like a bigger assignment over the whole semester, like, for example, the revival and the contrast and the drawball. In drawball, we start to get to know Python and coding and then we have like a final project we work individually on. So can you explain what is revival class? What, what do we do in the revival class? For the revival class, we, it's a class by Paul van der Glan and he gave us the assignment over the first assignment. The first part of the assignment was to find a book printed before 94, I think it has to be metal type. And we had to find a lot of books actually, we had to visit markets and old bookstores. And then we had to find something that we found interesting, we discussed it in class first and then that we start drawing actually. Or we also have to write a thesis kind of thing. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, we had to explain, document the whole process and just explain everything how it's done. That's a good way to learn actually. You enjoyed it quite a lot, right? Yeah, it was my favorite class. It was a favorite class. What typeface did you revive? My typeface was an American one and I was a bit not sure about it because I didn't know if I will find enough information here in this region, but actually I did, there was quite a lot and quite enough and yeah, it's called Ronaldson. So it was very, very interesting. The whole process. And except revival, you also mentioned contrast, what are the other classes you also have in the first semester? We also had form studies, stone carving, type and language, design theory. Yeah, I think these are the classes and we also had a few workshops during the whole year, focused on different scripts. And Laura, what is a can you maybe call a little bit in details this stone carving? It sounds pretty crazy. Stone carving, yes. Well, basically we design a letter on paper and then we try to translate it to the stone, but actually the stone is dictating in a way the shape or what will be done on it. And it's a lot of hard work. It takes time, it takes patience in your hands hurt and your back hurts, but it's so good. It stays forever on the stone. I think it's a good, there's a good balance between stirring in the screen all the time and having this stone carving class. It's almost a stress relief kind of thing. I mean, it's hard, like I'm very bad at stone carving too. I was always a bit afraid of making mistakes because once you carve the stone, it's forever, it's permanent there. And I was really scared to make mistakes, but actually you can make as many mistakes as you want. You can always solve in one way or the other mistake or a final solution. And like Laura said, the stone really dictates how the letter will look like. It's not you who is in full control actually. Yeah, you can have the idea, but then really the stone is helping you somehow to figure it out. And François is also a big help. She's so good. She's a teacher, right? Yeah. Why do you actually have this class? Why is it so important for type designers to carve in stone? It's not, but it's part of the whole thing. It's a different media and that's the idea of the program to not just do type on the screen, but try different media and see how it translates from one world to another from one tool to the other. It gives a much broader perspective. Okay. Oh, all right, that's nice. You also Laura mentioned something about forms that you have a class with form. Yeah, it's called form studies. It's with Eric Van Blokland and we did type cook or exercises. Also, yes. We did a lot. We did a lot. A lot of small assignments. Like chocolate leather was also part of that class. Yes. And responsive lettering. We had different smaller assignments in this class. And oh, yeah, and we started with calligraphy. We pointed nib. So quite a lot of things. Okay. So first, if I understand you correctly, first semester, just to sum it up, it's very like loaded. Like you have a lot of classes on top of that. You have workshops. Maybe you can describe one workshop you had. And the first semester we had the Cyrillic workshops with Ilya Ruderman, which was very interesting and it was connected to a revival assignment. I mean, I think most of us chose the revival assignment as a base for the children. Yeah, we could have chosen it if we wanted, if we want to do the Cyrillic for the contrast or for the revival. And yeah, it's I never expected it, but like designing a typeface for another script, learns you a lot about the typeface for the Latin scripts. I mean, I never did something like this before. And it really opened up my eyes. And I mean, I think Cyrillic is a beautiful script to design. Right? Yeah. You're native. I'm native, but for me was also very helpful to see how my script is taught and yeah, to gain understanding on the latin at the same time. It was not that hard for you or it is? It was not that hard. It was just very intense. It was very intense week. Yeah, it was in September when we had a lot of other things and this was in the plans. Yeah, and this was a four day intense workshop from morning till evening. And at the end we had to deliver the whole alphabet. The Cyrillic extended. Oh wow. So for four days, that's possible. If you didn't know that's possible. Yeah, I just wanted to do it well actually. It's good to know you can do it like a lot in four days. It's crazy. If you have continuous feedback and you can talk with people about your work, you can do a lot in four days. It's crazy. Time is different here. Really different. You can imagine. Yeah. And how about the coding? You also code in type and media, right? Yeah, we have a troubled class with Eust and it's like a fun way to get to know Python. It's like you put some codes and then you have a graphic output. And I think not everyone is as interested in coding or programming. But I think we start like at a very low level. And every week we learn something new and then in the end we have to introduce our own projects. And I think it's also like actually quite a lot of fun to program or go together. I mean, you can four IC more than two. And so you can help others and some people are very good at it or very interested in doing it. And they can help people who are less interested or need more help. And it also makes you think differently about also now in my type design experience or practice. I use a lot of Python code to speed up the process, like spacing and something like for the hand, the anchors. And so I think even after time media, I mean, obviously after time media I will still learn more about Python and use more coding in my practice as a designer for sure. And you mentioned this drawboard. What is this? What is a drawboard? A drawboard is a small application where you can design or create gifts or like even posters or I don't know, you can do quite a lot with it. It just needs a basis of Python. That's it. Yeah, it's an easy way for designers to learn how to code basically because it's visual, visual coding in a way. Yeah. Okay, so that was the let's say the first semester of time media. And then we go to the second semester, which is I think as you Laura briefly mentioned before, it's a bit different because you work only on one project, right? So this is probably your graduation project. Yes. And how does it look? So then you don't have classes, you only have individual talks with two tours or? Yes, we have individual talks. We had a part of our classes that continued from the first semester. And then they finished in the middle of March, I think. And we have one other class typography. But the rest is individual talks with the teachers and every month we have to we have a presentation basically to show our progress and what we did and how we did. Which is very helpful in the whole run. It's a marathon. So it's helpful to have these stops in time where you just think about the whole thing that you create. Okay. So maybe now we're going to jump to the question about you and what are what is your practice as a type of designer? If that's how you call yourself. And I'm interested in like your interests or your methods or formats you work with also in a way like how do you approach type design? That's a difficult question. You can also hear mentioned your graduation project if that's easier. I mean, I started my assets with something completely different. I think with script typefaces and now I ended up with a sense humanistic sense service with a layer counter part and they interpolate and then I have a display kind of version too and then I still have to create some italics but I think the good thing of the final projects, I mean, I think that's something general. You don't need from the beginning like a very specific idea of what you're going to do. They will guide you some more some teachers more than others. And in the end, I think everyone found their way in their project. I mean, I don't know anyone who from the start had this moment like I'm going to do this and I will focus on this. I think everyone had some struggles, options, choices to make. But yeah, like I said, I tried to use as much as the phon technology and all that stuff in my design practice. So I chose for a variable font and now when I look back at it, I don't know if that was such a smart idea because now I'm cuffed at some kind of rules and it's very complex but I learned a lot. Can you maybe explain probably what this variable font? A variable font is also the correct question, but a variable font is you need a design space and the design space exists an easy or simple design space exists out of two masters or sources and you can imagine it as two dots in the line in between. The two dots are the masters and the line in between is the interpolation between those. And for example, every letter needs to have the same amount of points. They have to be compatible with each other otherwise the interpolation will break. And between the interpolation, which means like from going from the one point from point A to point B, the letters transform or they get different shapes and you can do a lot with it. It's a very handy tool to speed up the process when you think I have to draw a bolt and you start with your regular and you make a fat or a heavy weight counterpark and then you can interpolate easily to find the right way for the bolt. And then it's up to you what your next steps will be. You can make an instance and an instance is like a very specific point on that axis. You take it and you adjust it and you make it right. That's very in depth. Is that okay, sorry. That's fine, that's fine. That's what I asked for. Yeah. Okay, that's a variable font. That's a variable font, more or less. And how about your practice, Laura? I started with calligraphy and this is also my background so it was a kind of a safe space for me and also teachers noted that but it's also my strength. So from there I tried to move to the drawing and because calligraphy is the furthest step from type design so you always need some kind of interpretation in between. So I continue with drawing but then with drawing I keep drawing the same thing so I had to reinvent my process in a way and I something I did was cut paper and rearrange some letters fast without thinking and then right after that I would draw and this will help me to really disconnect from the analyzing brain that says, yeah, this should be made like this and that because we also learned so much in the first semester that you have to kind of break the knowledge and find your own path. And yeah. And for graduation protocol is it going to be? It is going to be a few things. So yeah, I have actually two things that I'm working on. One is a family of five styles with a display and the display is related to the brush, to the calligraphy and the other project is a variable font with optical size axis. So this is just one style but I really wanted to explore this because I have a very nice drawing that I really like and want to do. And could you say what is a display typeface? This play typeface is a typeface that you would use for titling to make some impression or to say something louder than the normal text. And I really wanted to learn about display fonts in the graduation project. So Okay, maybe let's jump to a question about expectations versus reality. So I assume that you probably had some sort of image in your mind before you came to KBK, how is it going to look like? How does type media design department looks like or this type of fonts? And then you are finally here, you arrive to enrol and you're starting your master program and there was something which was maybe different than you expected. I was very excited but also nervous about the program because I heard stories before that it's very intense, very stressful, but also a really nice place to be, and it gives a lot of opportunities to learn. And, yeah, the workload is really true. It's a lot of work, but it's manageable. We did it. We are here. Yeah. I think that was my main concern. And also the weather. I knew that it's going to rain, but it didn't rain so much. After all, so that's good. I think this year was pretty good for us. It was good. I thought I was raining a lot during winter. I've never experienced something like this. I mean. Me neither, but. It's funny to do. I mean, I'm from Belgium and Canada. You used to this kind of weather, but even during February or January, there were these storms. And it was storms. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, the wind. I'm not used to that kind of wind. No, me neither. You bike and you cannot move, actually. Yeah. I know. This is extreme. But is this workload you mentioned in Clara? Is this something. Is this something you are kind of happy about in a case. in a situation that you learn a lot? Or is it something which is really. Now, when I look back, I think it's great because we learn a lot. But when I was going through this, it was so much that. sometimes I cannot. I mean, yeah, it was very hard at times. Mm-hmm. Okay. But it's manageable. You prove to yourself how much you can do. Yeah, I think. It's a lot of work that I. I know some people who studied here and I heard some stories about. like, working. or pulling out nighters every day of the week. And I think it's not that bad. It's not that bad. We sleep. I think it's also very important to have. to rest every night because you have to. you have to perform the day after anyway. So it doesn't make sense to. Yeah, pull out a lot of nighters and. come to the studio, super tired and not being able to work or function. It's also important to keep an eye on your physical mental health. I think that this can be stressed enough that how important that is. I mean. Yeah, even if you can do 10 minutes board a day, it's already something that helps the brain. Small things and healthy food. Give yourself sometimes some kind of weekends. Take it day off on Sunday. That's very important. Otherwise, there's no difference anymore between school or day off or weekends. And something else I would like to mention is like. don't be afraid to fail during this year. I mean, it's something. It brings a lot of stress and everyone wants to. do design, make the best project ever. And I can say it's not going to happen here. You will make a bunch of other type faces, other work. In the coming years, you're here to study, you're here to learn, to get to know new people. And. Yeah, in one of our classes, we talked about like. embrace failure. I think that's a very essential thing I learned here that. it's okay to make mistakes. I think we all make mistakes every day and we learn from them. And they have to be try to do better. And we probably fail again. But. Yeah, I think in these kind of times, everyone's super stressed. Everyone, everything has to be like super fast, produced. Yeah, it's very important to sometimes. don't be too hard on yourself either. I mean, doesn't mean that your work doesn't have to be good. Yeah, but to give yourself some. embrace and some time off and some mental space. And it's good to have friends. To talk to your friends from the class or meet other people. That's very, very important. My friends are quite handy. Yes, really. I really appreciate it. That sounds good. Very reasonable. And we still have some times. I think maybe before we jump to the last question about the landscape of the Hague and studying in the Hague, maybe I will also ask you about. If do you. because it's a one-year program, master program, and very often people who have to write their thesis, right? And masters. So do you guys also have to write thesis? Or is it something different? No, we don't. We have to design or create a process book, where we write down the process. But there's not something very theoretical or academic thesis we have to write down. I think it's very important to write down your process and your feedback talks every time. You have one, but it will only help yourself. And it's also handy to look back at it and to put it in your process book. But it's not like we don't need to write 10,000 words about what's design or a kind of question. Yeah, no, it's more about the creation of what we do. Our typefaces, they are the thesis part. And then we just explain, we support the work with words. It can also be like a lot of pictures or images you made during the year, sketches or scans. And just with small caption underneath. I mean, I've seen quite some process books by now, so they're like different kind of expressions. Yeah, if you're not good in writing, I think it's also a good option to just try to express yourself in images in a way and just make small notes and captions. Yeah. OK, good. I was curious about that. So I thought maybe it's good to ask. OK, living in the Hague, how is it? Like we are all international students here. It's very international environment. And how do you find the Hague? Do you have any spots to recommend? Yeah, in the beginning of the year, there was still COVID. So we didn't go anywhere except for playing a table who is ball in our studio. I've been here the next semester. I mean, COVID has gone between codes. And we sometimes-- I mean, I or we, the class, go to a bar called the pass. And it's also called the type bar. I've heard-- type bar. Yeah, like a lot of type designers hang around at the pass, apparently. But yeah, I think also living in the Hague means try to make some friends that are not designers or type designers. I think it's also very nice to just have a talk about normal daily stuff. I mean, in my case, I was lucky to have like three roommates who were doing something completely different. So every night when I came home, I could have a talk with my roommate and talk about, I don't know, their life. Like they're studying political science, for example. So it's something completely different. But-- and yeah, as Belgium, living in the Netherlands, it's not so different from Belgium. I mean, I speak Dutch. I mean, they sometimes understand me when I'm speaking Dutch. It's not always as clear apparently. So I try to-- I try, but it's not that easy. OK. Yeah. How is it for you, Laura? For me, it's a very open environment, very friendly people. And it feels very nice to be here. It's stay mostly in the studio, actually. You don't really go out so much. But I can recommend a few museums that I enjoy a lot. So Escher Museum and Kunstmuseum, the Berlin-- Yeah, Berlin, that's a great museum. Yes. Also, it gives such a nice experience with the architecture inside and the way it feels. What was the museum we visited in Sjevening, the Afernsomotje? Yeah, this is the Kunstmuseum. Is that OK? OK. That's in the United Kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, and otherwise, I love going to the park. Accessibos is one of my favorite places and also the beach. Especially now that it's warmer and the park is green. And I bike a lot. That's helping me. Yeah. Life is nice here. I don't know how it is if you're not a student. But if you're a student, it can be a very nice experience. OK. Nice. Yeah. So we arrived at the end to our conversation, to another episode of "In Conversation Podcast." And I spoke to Sam and Laura from type and media department. So yeah, thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much.