In America, are you what you wear?

What's a common misconception about clothes that you wish that everyone understood? Ooh, there are so many, but I think underlying all of them is the need to trivialize it, to make it silly, to make it something that doesn't really matter, which is just a really effective way of discounting this enormous market, this huge section of laborers all around the world. And also, I was just talking this morning with someone who was like, I don't know how to dress anymore because I just hit 40 and my size is changing. Fashion is all about reckoning with our changing tastes, our changing bodies, the changing weather all around us, changing tastes all around us. It's how we negotiate our place in the world. And so the easiest reaction is just like, it's dumb and I don't care about it, to be like, it doesn't matter. But I think at the core is if we really took it seriously. I think we'd value the labor behind it more. I think we'd value the materiality behind it more. We'd value the stories behind it more. So I don't think it's like the most important thing in the world, but I certainly think it's as important as food or literature or movies or anything else. Are we what we wear? That's one of the many questions at the center of Avery Truppelman's new podcast, Philosophy Club. You may know Avery from her other podcast, Articles of Interest, where she dives into the stories behind the clothes we wear. But Philosophy Club. is about the philosophy behind our sartorial choices. Every month, she and her co-host, Derek Guy, read the works of philosophers, theorists and writers who have laid the groundwork for us to make connections between class, clothes and consumption. Today on the show, Avery breaks down what fashion philosophy is, how it's baked into modern day discourse, and what's at the root of our need to dress to impress. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce. And you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, so I'll say this. You've always covered fashion with rigor and thoughtfulness, but you have a new podcast, Philosophy Club, and that takes that rigor and thoughtfulness to a whole new level. I mean, in it, you and your co-host, Derek Guy. A man that many people know on social media as Dye Workwear, aka the menswear guy. I mean, somebody who has, honestly, in some ways, chastened and schooled all of us. Myself included, yeah. Men's dressing. You guys read a work of classic fashion philosophy, and then you talk about how it applies to what we wear today. What was the inspiration behind this new show? Well, so basically, I was like, yeah, I want to do a chat cast, but I want to do something, enriching, I want to learn, and I really wanted to do it with Derek, so the co-host came first. Derek and I have known each other for a long time, and he's so knowledgeable, and he's so funny and smart. Yeah. And also, both of us like to pretend we're like hoity-toity people who like to invoke a lot of philosophers, and I was like, we haven't really read these guys, like cover to cover. We like talk about their highlights, but we should actually read the books, like Torsten Veblen, who coined conspicuousness. Like, we talk about these all the time, but we're like, well, what did he actually say? And it's funny, because you can see how a lot of these thinkers shaped our modern approaches to fashion. And I mean, episode one starts in 1705. We've been thinking about our approach to buying and wearing long before the capitalist machinery around us put it into hyperdrive. Like, it's been here. Yeah. I mean, I want to actually, like, I want to, like, basically. Bear down a little bit on what you mean by fashion philosophy book. What kind of books are we talking about here? Like, who wrote them and who read them? And how old are some of these books? Yeah. Some of these books are really, really old. I mean. You're following an academic reader. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Derek and I did not create this syllabus, and we have not read most of these, so I don't have any high. I'm not like, ha, ha, ha, you've never heard of fashion philosophy? Like, me neither. This is all new to all of us. So it's this great book called The Rise of Fashion, A Reader. Oh, yeah, I've heard of that book for sure. There are, like, chapters about certain themes, and then it goes forward chronologically. So the first chapter is about the display of rank and stature. The second is about the semiotics of dress. There's another chapter on gender. And you can kind of watch the ideas about these topics over time. So this first chapter that we're on right now, The Display of Rank and Status, the first book was. Do I have it here? Yeah. It's called Bernard Mandeville's Fable of the Bees, which. Oh, yes. I had never heard of. That's the first episode that you all covered. The first episode. I had never heard of it either, but I enjoyed hearing you guys talk about it. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and it's so funny, because once I was researching it, people were like, ah, yes, the time-honored parable, The Fable of the Bees. What? But it was really interesting. I mean, it was one of the first books to propose that vice is not necessarily bad, and people flipped out. Like, this was. And the logic is like, okay, virtue, according to the church, is you don't spend a lot of money, you dress very modestly. You're thrifty. You're thrifty, don't eat too much, don't enjoy yourself too much, not wasteful. And Bernard Mandeville, this Dutch guy who moved to England and made money translating fables, was like, I'm going to write a fable. And this fable is. What happens if everybody actually behaves that way? And he's like, the economy would collapse. He's like, it's very bad. And the thing that actually keeps everybody employed and keeps everybody busy and everybody doing their part in society is that everybody has vices. And it's like an interesting argument with a lot of flaws, but I kind of see where he's going with it. Well, I mean, I want to talk about this a little bit more. I mean, listening to your show, one of the things that really stood out to me is just how timeless some of the observations are in old-fashioned philosophy books or essays. Like in the first episode, obviously, you all are discussing the fable of the bees. And I mean, he's kind of making the argument that society's kind of held together, actually, by greed and envy and competition. Yeah. I mean, what he's saying in this book is not that far off from how I think many people see the world right now. Like, what has it been like to see the. What has it been like to see the parallels between, like, these centuries-old texts and the way that we talk about fashion or even talk about the world today? Yeah, yeah. You can really feel the struggle that everyone is wrestling with, especially today, is like, well, what do I want and is it good? And is it because other people want me to want it? Yeah. And, you know, how much can we actually reach for a better society or are we trapped in this one? I mean, Mandeville would argue that. We are trapped in this one and there's, like, no room for improvement and the bad society is actually the good society. I mean, he even has a line that's like, we even need the criminals because how would the police be employed? It's like, oh, my God. Like, he really. He's like, we all have a role in this, like, flawed society and there are parts of it that I love. It's like, okay, embracing the world as it is, that's kind of beautiful, but it doesn't really allow for, like, larger. Or degree of change. And, I mean, you can even see this playing out in, like, liberal versus conservative city arguments today. Like, do we need police? Like, should we have, like, drug rehabilitation centers? Like, how can we facilitate or curtail vice? And, you know, like, this is good for business. Yeah. Or it's bad. You know, these moral arguments versus these commercial arguments. But, I mean, right now, I'm reading Voltaire and Rousseau and Voltaire. Voltaire was really into, like, I love society. I love luxury. Luxury is great. Which you very much see as the sort of Instagram influencer. Like, treat yourself. You deserve it. Little treat culture sometimes. Little treat culture. It's everywhere. It's, like, very much Voltaire. And then you have his nemesis, Rousseau, who's like, you have to disconnect from desire. Like, that's the set of people, like, bricking their phones and, you know, going on buy-nothing challenges. Like, we see these same philosophies of what is the right way to live over and over again. It's these really, really fundamental questions. And it all ties back into what do we buy? What do we wear? How do we communicate our status to other people? We're going to take a quick break. But first, if you're a longtime listener or brand new to It's Been a Minute, be sure to come back every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Friday for brand new episodes. And did you know you can make it even easier to get new episodes by hitting the follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast app? Whether you're a new friend or a loyal bestie, join the team by subscribing today. Coming up after the break. Unfortunately, I think clothing should be expensive. I know that's controversial, but I think clothes should be worth a lot of money. I think they should be precious. Stick around. i wonder in a lot of the texts that you're reading some of these people are of right the upper classes um or they are primarily focused on the upper classes i will be the first to say that the upper classes especially the united states are not necessarily the most stylish people um nor do like true fashionable trends um originate with them i think in a way a lot of people think they're usually adopting a trend that somebody else from a lower class has already worked over to death right but still there is so much that's valuable and thinking about and looking at how they're dressing and what they're trying to communicate um what they want to say about themselves what they want us to think about them i mean i've been thinking a lot about the idea that like you've heard this phrase i'm sure before wealth whispers um the idea that the super wealthy even people who might be considered more like tech new money billionaires like a mark zuckerberg or something like that they're always super dressed down t-shirt and jeans or even if those t-shirt and jeans are really expensive right they're still expensive like they could be expensive but they still look very low-key they look very casual i don't know i i feel like recently it also feels like in some ways like the mask is sipping a little bit you know what i mean like yes definitely like mark zuckerberg himself kind of startled the masses when he began dressing differently wearing a big gold chain which for someone of his previous style the the gold chain was attention grabbing okay for a lot of us like i said startled the masses or even i'm thinking about someone like obviously jeff bezos has kind of switched up the way he dresses or in sanchez um his wife i mean she has been seen at fashion week and she has been styled by law roach who's like you know the tippy tippy top of the a-list you know celebrity stylist it seems like they want us to look at them what do you think that's about and are there any fashion philosophers that you've seen that you've seen that you've seen read from the past whose work you think could kind of get at that oh that's such a good question you know mark zuckerberg is a great example because he started getting really into watches and just going ahead and buying like the rarest most expensive watches you know and not really sort of whale out of the ocean totally and not like working his way up you know like start with a normal status symbol don't just like get the most amazing thing but i think the you know especially this this new money they're like competitive people and they love to prove they're on top and i do think this is a part of why people buy what they buy is to show status and be like i am someone i have this thing that everybody else desires the next episode is going to be about lord chesterfield's letters to his son lord chesterfield was a lord in england and in this time it's so funny to remember how government used to work he like inherited his father's position but all of his letters to his son like did you ever see um did you see death of a salesman oh maybe i watched brian dennehy play it like on pbs a long time ago but like the character in death of a salesman willie loman he's like he's all about how like you gotta charm people and people gotta like you and that's the most important currency in the world and that's what this guy is saying to his son but a huge part of it is he's like you gotta dress the part you gotta make people respect you you gotta like put on the right airs and i do think at the end of the day that is like mark zuckerberg trying to get people to be like look look at me like appreciate me i have this like right cool right like check me out i'm worth something and honestly i think that's so much of why people wear luxury and status symbols is to feel like they're being taken seriously you know getting a getting a seat at the table i think it was john adams who read lord chesterfield's letters and was like this is ridiculous like it was very at the time it was very un-american and now we're living in this new sort of monarchy yeah where there's such a rigid social hierarchy you can kind of dress yourself in the right trappings and ascend up i mean you can see it done so easily in people like george santos you just dress the right way you wear the right things and then you are you like it's like you just be the guy and then you just be the guy and then you just be the guy and you are the guy but that's also so uniquely american though you can kind of you can decide to make yourself over because i'm thinking of someone like a kim kardashian for example you can already be a public figure with one specific type of public profile change the way that you style yourself and then ascend to something completely different the reverse is also possible obviously but totally but anna delvey had to move here you know anna sorkin had to become anna delvey she's somebody who got caught being a scammer but then people were so charmed by her story and by her attempt at defrauding rich people and her attempt at doing that through sending sometimes very mixed messages with her styling it's now actually given her the resources the attention that she needs to be able to actually become in a way like the kind of person that she was always pretending to be totally totally i mean you know the funny thing is when and it's sort of this weird inverse of what the american experiment was supposed to do you know america invented ready-made clothes but it's really interesting because when alexis de toqueville first visited america he was like this is wild you can't tell what class anyone is like the because in europe the paupers wore rags and the rich people wore jewels and there were sumptuary laws and he was like here anyone could be anyone and that's where the idea of the american con man came from like the confidence man and you know you like move you move to a city a way from anyone you knew and someone dressed kind of nice comes up to you and acts all friendly why wouldn't you you trust him and so the funny thing is that was that was considered the downside to our new sort of middle-class society where the president's dressed like the small business owners you know like we're all we're all one especially as the semiotics have gotten so mixed up how has reading these kinds of texts like how has it changed how you not just how you view fashion today but how you view like your work as a fashion journalist oh these are such good questions i mean i think it's really helpful to remember how foundational all these conversations are that they weren't brought about because of fast fashion or the internet these are the need to follow fashion is something that you even see in the animal kingdom you know do you you have you been following like the orcas who wear the hats no oh my god wait i'm gonna look this up i'm gonna look this up because i need to see this orcas they wear salmon salmon hats salmon as hats and then others follow them that's cute so cute they're just being cute for no reason and that's the thing they're following each other they're like that's a fun idea and then they'll do that too and i think ultimately like part of so much of these texts are about like how do we interact in society what do we owe each other you know how do you assert your individual difference while respecting everyone around you and that's something we navigate a lot with clothes and so i think there's so much pressure especially now in an atomized society to be like i'm an individual i don't dress like anybody else but like of course you dress you dress appropriately to the area in which you live and the neighborhood in which you live and when you see someone who's cool who you admire whether it's someone on the subway or someone who you know you're looking back books and you think they're cool like you think someone is interesting and you copy them it's it's mimetic it's very it's very sweet um but it's so it's interesting to think about it as like a society a question of how we engage with society and it's also interesting to um realize that people have been putting very very very very very serious thought into this as they consider you know in the lead up to the french revolution and kind of this era that we're in now of like how much excess how much conspicuous wealth is too much like how when do we when do we need to reassess so i guess that's a way of saying that the way we dress is a very much a societal dilemma and it's a personal dilemma but it doesn't mean that society itself is like this large entity that can't be changed it's very interesting see to see philosophers write about the way they think we should reconsider society or change society um and it's emblematic in the clothes that people wear like what kind of society we want will be seen in the way that people dress we've been talking about all these other philosophers and their ideas about fashion what is your fashion philosophy unfortunately i think clothing should be expensive um i know that's controversial controversial um but i think clothes should be worth a lot of money i think they should be precious i think you know as a survivor of a sewing class you know how much work goes into them yes and and i think that is also a societal question of valuing labor and the pride of work over thoughtless easy consumption um and i think clothing should be purchased one at a time and really valued and um Um. But in terms of a larger philosophy, I really don't have any philosophies of the way people should dress. Let me make it clear. I do not enjoy overpaying for clothes. I do not like paying an absurd amount of money for clothes, but I just believe in compensating labor, hours, effort, materials. If those things are sourced in a way that's like ethical and fair to everybody involved, then the cost will naturally go up. Totally. Yeah, I'm not like, you should be spending thousands of dollars on a couture gown. Like, no. But I do believe in giving a creator who spent hours and hours on a shirt a couple hundred bucks. Like, that's, I think that's great. And there's so many clothes out there. It's so cheap to get things secondhand. My favorite thing about clothing is how fun it is to look at. That's my favorite thing on the subway. Or in an airport or in a concert. Just people watching, being like, what is everybody wearing? And really looking at the common thread, being like, what colors is everybody wearing? What, you know, nowadays it's like, what tattoos does everybody have? What are everybody's nails? Like, what's going on? And I think in the same way that people like mushroom hunting or bird watching as like little tricks to understand nature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like gamify it a little bit. It just makes every day a little bit more exciting and a little bit more of a game to be like, look at look at these patterns. Look at these clothes. What's going on? And I think just by observing it, you learn a lot. I have one last question. What advice do you have for someone who wants to read more rigorously about fashion or clothing and doesn't know where to start? The two books by Dana Thomas, Gods and Kings. And Deluxe really tell everything about the current state of fashion, like LVMH and the rise of LVMH and John Galliano and Alexander McQueen. And they're fantastic. And then the two books by Terry Agans. Love her. The Death of Fashion. Oh, you mean The End of Fashion by Terry Agans. Great book. And, oh my God, Hijacking the Runway. I think those also paint a very complete picture of, like, if you read those four books, you understand the modern fashion system. And they're also so fun and, like, easy to read. And it's, like, by two icons. So those are my books. Amazing. Avery, thank you so much. It's so good to talk to you. And I thank you for bringing us along to your public learning journey. I'm so grateful. Thanks for coming along with me. That was the host of Articles of Interest and Philosophy Club, Avery Truffleman. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by. Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is. Cher Vincent. Our executive producer is. Barton Girdwood. Our VP of programming is. Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.