Imposter Syndrome in Enablement: Credentials vs. Experience

[Music] Well, welcome to the Napeman Uncanned. Here we go again. How are you, Carly? Good, thank you. How are you? Yeah, very well. It's actually warm in the UK for a change. For anyone listening outside the UK, it's bloody lovely. It really is nice. And here we are talking about the weather. Always do it. I do it as a bit of a joke. Typical Brits. Typical Brits. We're always the same, right? But thanks for joining. So today on an Napeman Uncanned, we have Carly Fisher, who is the global revenue enablement lead and the pride co-lead at Go Cardless. So you pretty much do everything over there, right? Yeah, massive title. Just just the title. I do not think. I always asked to update my title to my management and to see if they will. But no, no, you can't update it again. But titles mean everything. It's all good. It's all good. So yeah, welcome to Napeman Uncanned. It's great to have you. And today we're going to be discussing quite quite a good topic actually. Imposter syndrome. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners have had imposter syndrome at some point during their either their work life or their personal life. But we're going to be talking about it in the enablement context. So what's more important? Credentials or experience? And yeah, obviously you've you've had imposter syndrome yourself. You maybe even have a little bit of it now. So let's maybe let's start before we sort of get stuck into that. It'd be great to get a bit of an intro to you. Your role. Just so the listeners sort of understand who you are and then we can we can get stuck in. Yeah, cool. Thanks Jack. So yeah, I work at Go Cardless as the global revenue enablement lead relatively like new role. We've had enablement before, but we've really like moved into thinking about revenue enablement rather than sales enablement and bringing it like into a centralized revops function. And I'm just really focused on enabling our global go to market teams whether that's true. Processes training. Just being an air and helping support with resources, etc. And supporting our managers to deliver and get results right. Exactly. So you don't stop. You were talking to me a little bit earlier about working around the clock to all the four regions. Oh, yeah. Like we've got, yeah, and Australia and North America, Europe and UK and Ireland. So, yeah, quite a few different time zones to accommodate too, which is always delightful. But you've not been in enablement your whole life of you. You've, here's a good one. You and I both worked at the same company before, but we didn't actually know we did. We do know we do now. We do now. You're in a different office, but we work together in the same doing sales. So you've got a sales background, right? That's kind of where you've come from. So we started in marketing. So originally like a marketing account manager worked in like a marketing agency for a couple of years off the back of uni. And then actually as part of that, there was like some elements of sales. And I was, oh, we're actually like quite like this part. I think when I speak into, you know, customers and the buzz that I'd get from like the sale and all that sort of stuff. So when I moved up to Bristol, I decided to get into sales. And yeah, I really just started from the bottom up started as an SDR 200 calls a day type boiler room type situation. And in there. And yeah, and then I quite quickly, you know, realized that I could, I was pretty good at like leading people and I guess leading from the front in terms of that performance and like delivering results. So like moved into some management roles and then decided that apparently I didn't want to stop there. And I just needed to know everything about the whole cycle of the customer and got into customer success. And then again decided that was really good at the operational side and enablement and supporting with onboarding programs and things like that. And yeah, since then I've been operational focus my whole career at go cardless for last two and a half years has been operation operations focus and now enablement for the last last 18 months. That's amazing. It's something that I've said before, you know, when I do get board of sales, which it never to be will happen. I'm not going to be in sales forever, or maybe a bell, you know, but it is, you know, when I get to the point where I just can't keep up that fight anymore enablement is definitely something that I can see myself getting into. I've said that's a lot of people. They're still selling in a enablement, no Jack, like exactly. We, you got a cell to the, I just look at all the people that I serve as my customers. And I've still got a cell to them to make sure they're doing what we need them to be doing and learning and engaging and driving the outcomes of like mickey stakeholders. So it never leaves you. So you can step away from the sales, but the sales never steps away from you. I love that. I'm going to take I'm going to steal that quote. I'm going to take it. I mean the question. Plus all over my LinkedIn tag you in it. So. Alrighty, so let's start there then. Thanks for the intro. It's great to great sort of get a bit of a background. So the imposter syndrome give us an uncan take on this give us so you know we know that many many professionals enable professionals feel. Unqualified I guess is that is the is the right word you know without a traditional training background you know what's your. Controversial hot take on that imposter syndrome. I think experience Trump's credentials personally. I think like having the ability to understand the mindset of an SDR of an account exec of a sales manager of a CSM. All the way across the lifecycle and understanding our customers like more than anything I understand how our customers engage with those teams also. And where those gaps are because I've been in those positions. Yeah, you know where I've identified that and I think only experience can really truly give you that understanding and collective like high approach where. When I'm talking to the teams it's always a we it's never you you need you you need this or you need we need to be able to do this and we need to be able to do that because. If I'm speaking to more sales managers I'm in the frame of a sales manager if I'm speaking to the a I mean the frame of an a and. As a result I can find that common ground with them is not always easy of course as challenges. But I can find that common ground I think when you come from a place of experience and we've I've seen it I've experienced it and I've seen it in practice where. And I've seen people that come in off the back of all this education and credentials and you know doing this training for however long and. And actually sometimes that can put a barrier up I think for the people that are in the position of like but do you actually get. Like my problem or are you just are you just saying these you know great buzzwords and. These great processes and things like that would you actually understand how it feels to be in my space and I think that's the barrier. It's like when you get external training companies come into the business similar type thing like a med pick or a false management. Whatever you want to call it coming in and trying to take you down a certain path but do you actually understand how we work. But yeah you're right I mean you've been in every role as we all know you've been in every role so you kind of know enablement is trying to bridge the gap between between everyone right and trying to bring everyone together so. And I think like I think the enablement space is changing but I think his story especially as I was coming up through sales there was a massive emphasis on enablement being about training. And so that lent itself to credentials of being in learning and development and understand principles around that and or and or HR type roles. Whereas I think that I do think that space is is changing and I think that space is moving more towards where we are now focusing on revenue and impact of enablement that you know it's not quite relying on that and I still think there's a space for that like FYI. I don't think we just get rid of all the trainers in the world. I definitely think there's still a space for that and I've certainly used training principles and. Yeah. Learning development principles in the work I've done especially around things like competency frameworks and skills matrixes and stuff like that but I think just being purely like narrow vision on those sorts of things. Doesn't have the same impact as being able to bring that wide range of experience into that role. Yeah you're right almost being more of a people person as well with the experience because you've been there right and having that experience to actually understand those different roles. No I love it let's rip up all the CVs we won't bother doing CVs anymore and applying for new roles we don't need them. I think. Yeah that's it but it's true you know a lot of the roles that I've had but not that I'm an enablement person I guess you know I sell an abement but every time I've gone into a role CVs more of a tick box exercise so I kind of leads to what you're saying. And an abement isn't just about taking boxes as you said it's it's actually about driving the revenue impact. So you mentioned the shift there you know from more training focus to revenue impact driven you know what enable teams what should they actually be measured on that do you think. I think there's a few different things so I think like obviously I think the revenue impact needs to be measured by also I think that's a really difficult thing to tangible. measure because you know you could just have a really great sales manager that's just been fired that comes in and motivates their team and all of a sudden that team's performing really well. I don't think you can like solely link enablement back to revenue achievements. What you can do as a line you know your like content or process or like particular training sessions to maybe seeing spikes in improvement in certain areas but it's like trailing it back. I always thought about this when I was a sales manager it was like you know we can focus on the end result of course we can we know that's our target here but what we've got to do to get there. What are the steps we've got to put in place to actually achieve that goal and I think that's what enablement metrics you know measures should be focused on is like what do we put in place that makes it as easy as possible to get to that point and it's sort of like I don't know do you play computer games? Do I want the listeners knowing that? Yeah of course I do. You've got an Xbox if that counts. You're playing split fiction with your partner? No. No anyone who is it's like a crazy game. Lit fiction it's like a co-op couch co-op game. Okay I'm like I can do that I'm good at couch evening. But there's like steps you have to take to get to a certain point. Right right right you know gas like steps you've got to take to get to a certain point and it's about making it as easy as possible to get there and you're going to have challenges and obstacles in the way but you've got like it's about having the structures and processes in place to get there. So I think for enablement it's about delivery it's about impact like how are you showing impact? How are you showing delivery and the things that can be tangible and can show direct benefit to the teams that you're serving that to and then I think revenue comes like the revenue impact. Paturally yeah. Because you're doing the right things together. No you're right. So let's take this then so I'm a salesperson turned enabler. Yeah. In the other room I've got a certified trainer right. How would they what what's the differences do you think what are the differences and I can give them hands on the screens people say it if they're watching of course. What are the differences between those types of sales programs. So would you think where's that difference between those types of people designing I guess a training program. I think it's the difference in delivery. And I think actually how they give the training is a great job. Yeah I think how they give the training I think the content as well but I think the delivery of it and it's like it's not it's the language and it's the we it's the high-even environment like there's nothing better when you're in sales yes like partnership feeling part of that team right and feeling like you're part of success. And I think that's the difference. So I think there's like a language and the delivery approach to it and being human and like humanising that approach and and then recognising that you you get it because of the language you're using is like what they're just been speaking about upstairs next to each other. They're looking at a new deal or whatever it may be. And I'll give you an example. We recently ran some sessions where we needed cross-collaboration between success and sales. And it's clear and evident that like that's where that experience comes in because I understand that only RCS teams can give that knowledge to our sales teams. I can't I don't work day-to-day in CS. I know what they do and I know their processes and I understand what they do but what I've done is said it's standing up and going this is how we do this and this is how we sell this and talk about it like this is I've gone get the CS team here because they're their peers they're the part of the hive to our overall success. Get them up here telling them actually the benefits of this and the impact to revenue, the impact to them directly in terms of commission. Those types of things where you can start them, you start to change the language because it is directly coming from the people that are impacted by a day in day out. Rather than someone stood there telling them this is how you should do it because this is like the ways of like that it should work in principles that makes sense. It does you're almost tying it to that emotional aspect aren't you you're tying it so they get you care about it as opposed to not exactly in their peers in they they feel like you one you know what you're talking about but two they can actually then go off and deliver what they need to do. Yeah and I think it was probably one of the best engaged like sessions we've like we've certainly had in response to that so I think that is where that collective experience comes from and I know like my journey's been a bit I'm going to a bit more detail about it but it's been a bit all over the place but at the same time you can still understand even if you've only been an AE or an STR and you move into enablement you can still understand that you need to rely on marketing like you need leads from marketing and you can do all of that stuff and you still can understand that the like the frustrations to get in a new customer and then not being on boarded correctly or going through a challenging process into onboarding which delays your commission for example right. So in any role like it's the same circle it's the same journey for that merchant so relevant where you sit and where you play a part you can understand that there's impact for you across every single element of that journey so being able to then bring that into a collective thinking when we think about especially the in-person training sessions like this example is I can sit there and think right who's going to be best delivering this like who's actually going to get it because I can't I can't start there and tell them that that's not going to that's not going to res I mean I can but it's not going to resonate in the same way whereas I think if we had just a trainer on the other side that's typically from my experience the approach I've had is that it's like you need to do this and you need to do this and you need to do this you need to do this they don't truly understand but they truly understand and get to know you not I'm going to get a lot of hate mail from from this point on you're going to have trainers all over your LinkedIn there they go how dare you this is my experience I'm sure this is ready for a great deal I there's definitely a place for trained they certified trainers that most certainly is you know talking about sales methodologies or and I use that example a little bit earlier you know if you did have an external you know expert on a methodology coming into teach that that's absolutely fine but you also need to wrap around the culture of the business the culture of the sales team you know how they're doing things how it works because if you start just drumming it into them this is how you need to do it it's they're almost going to get their backs up I mean yeah I don't think like any salespeople really like being told how to sell because I think we also in a very different fashion that like being told how to do that by someone who you feel like maybe doesn't get it being told how to do that by your manager or by a high performer someone that you look up to someone that you like is very different to being told to do that from someone who doesn't have that knowledge or experience right so it's like a really interesting like gap that like just purely certified trainers have this is without that sort of experience right trying to backtrack this you don't get the hate mail I like it I like it it's a to dive into a little bit more about your person experiences then because you know you've been through you've been through a lot you've gone through a lot of a lot of roles and you know this imposter syndrome we're calling it the imposter syndrome and for those of you who don't know those of you listening that they've never sort of understood what that that term is take a look at it because it's super interesting but it'll be good to to understand from you through those multiple roles you know and the frustration that you've had you know in those misaligned enablement efforts we'll call them enablement efforts you know what is your personal experience that you've had with imposter syndrome whether that be in your career whether that be at home wherever it is and sort of how you've then reframed that that mindset it'd be really good to sort of hear that and see if it helps some others as well so my own experience of I think like imposter syndrome is quite common for women anyway generally and I think in a space of tech even more so sometimes because it can be quite a male driven space so I think it's something that is looked at in multiple different ways for me and I also I'm currently going through a process of like an ADHD assessment and actually sometimes that like overthinking and like over processing of things is part of that type of neurodiversity right and as a result I think like it's sometimes just about getting in your own head like I know that I was great at marketing like I had good results like and I enjoyed it more than anything I enjoyed it sales like I found I did find harder because I was someone who liked to engage with people taught to people and sometimes when your environments it doesn't take for that and you 200 calls a day like doesn't mean you stop having a little chim wag but my performance came from being me and doing that but when you look around you and you see that that's not what other people are doing am I doing it the right way oh my god like what's going on but you sort of keep going and you sort of keep motoring and pushing through it and I've had I've had some serious challenges with like questioning my capabilities where like I've misunderstood because of my like neurodiversity and how I operate and I've also had you mentioned at the beginning I'm co-lead on the prior group I've had challenges around like how it went I was in sales how I look and how I dress because I don't dress or look the typical way so then you sort of I've got to do with how you can perform. - I mean, it had nothing to do. And that person soon enough has this, but due to poor performance. But this is, yeah, you're right. And but this is like, I think it's these challenges that we go through and these like blocks that we have that other people can contribute to. Sometimes unwillingly, sometimes willingly, and contribute to that make you start questioning your capabilities and questioning actually like, am I good at this? Am I achieving what I should be achieving or what I feel like I should? I remember growing up thinking like, by the time I'm 30, like, I want to be on a 30 grand salary, I want this, I want like, we grew up in an era like as millennials where hitting that bracket of like 30k was the big. And I think I saw an article the other day where like the equivalent of 30k is now like 70k. - Yeah. - Like, have the rest I think. - These are like, now in my mid-thase, I've got another goal to try and get to, I've not got to that point yet. - Do you know what I mean? Like, it's ever changing and this is the thing, I think more recently and like, especially at GoCardless, like in the environment that we have at GoCardless, and there's a great environment. Probably one of the best to be honest in terms of where I've been able to just be myself from a newer diversity point of view and from a LGBTQIA plus point of view, is that I've just recognized that I can just be myself and I can get stuff done and I can show results and I can show impact from that. And so I started, I was having a conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago and I was like, all this going on, this going on, this. So, you know, I'm relatively new into this global newborn role. So obviously I've been going on the whole, you know, all storm, all that type of stuff. And it's been challenging as it always is in a new role. And they're like, how do you do it? And like, I remember that I'm actually just good at what I do. - Yeah. - And I think you start, you get to an age and you get to a point where you start to see that you are delivering the results and you get little snippets of feedback where people recognize that input and impact that you're having. They're like, oh yeah, actually I am. Okay, I'm pretty. - Some are right. - Actually, I'm actually pretty good at this. I think they're like, yeah. And I think that's part of it. I think it's about, as in relations like what to take away from that, I think it's about finding the right environment for you. And sometimes accepting that places aren't very good. You know, and sometimes like for you. For other people, they may be. - They might be fine. - They may not be. And like, that's what I think I, if someone had maybe spoken to me earlier and just been like, it's okay to leave. Like, it's okay to work there and it's okay to find something that's right for you. And it's okay to figure that out. Like, it's okay to, you know, my dad used to tell me, you know, be in a job minimum five years before you move on. - Be with them. - So like, this is the mentality that I went into my career, like my working life with. It's like, I can't leave, I can't leave. Like I have to, and actually as a result, I created more and more of this feeling of not being good enough because it just wasn't the right space for me to flourish. So I think like, in that respect, like find a place that helps you to flourish. - I love that. - And then the imposter syndrome shouldn't exist because you're flourishing. There's always gonna be things that you don't get right with human. There's gonna be mistakes. There's gonna be things that don't land quite as well as you want. But overall, if you're able to deliver and you're able to be yourself and you have that knowledge, like just, you get on and you do it and you flourish. And I think that now the post-it syndrome starts to fade away a little bit more. - Yeah, and you touched it there, you know, so many, I'm sure, so many enable professionals and others, you know, feel like imposter's. I'm sure that is the case for people that are listening here as well. That does happen. I mean, I've had a bit of it, right? You do feel not that I'm an enabler, but in sales. Am I doing the right things? Am I good enough for this, you know, am I in the right place? Definitely thought of it less working here. So maybe it is, you know, kind of the environment you're in, maybe it feels like that. And, you know, you've been at Go Carlos' what almost two and a half, two and a half, three years now, right? You're obviously doing something right, yeah. - I mean, I think so. Maybe I'm just, they just can't get me out. I'm just like, like, like, like, in my chair, they're just trying, but like, no. Yeah, I think, like, and that's it. And I've had different roles at Go Carlos, by the way, because, you know, we've moved around and we've had, like, different people. - They've gone through, it's not, they're not, you know, they're almost promotions in a way. - Yeah, yeah, to sure. - You're doing the right things. - And I think that's also the show, like, that environment is that, like, if you turn up every day and you just care, you know, one of our values is care deeply, right? Like, you just care about what you do and you believe in what you do. Then it's easy. It's not, you know, it just becomes something that, like, I enjoy coming to work. I mean, yes, of course, we have stressful days. I'm, I'm, I'm able 300 people alone globally. But, though, it doesn't matter because I enjoy what I do. We have a great, like, team. We have a great network around us that supports all of that, right? So, I think that's super important in trying to remove that imposter syndrome, is actually recognizing that sometimes it's the outside influences that's making you feel like that, rather than your actual ability and capability, you don't need to go and spend thousands of pounds on doing a course because you don't necessarily feel good enough at what you're doing. If you're constantly delivering and you're constantly enjoying what you do and you're achieving the objectives that you set with your manager or yourself, whatever it may be, then you're doing a good job. - Yeah, you're right. So, you mentioned a little bit there just before that part about gaining, or at least being likable, I don't know if likable is the right word, but with the sales team and getting caring, right? Caring about the people that you're enabling. So, there are any tactics that you've got, or tips that you've got in helping gain trust. So, you're a new person in enablement. You're going into very much like you are with GoCart. That's right, you're now global revenue enablement. You've now got to enable 300 people. What are your tips and tactical ways of gaining the trust with those teams? Because you care. Is it simply just showing that you care? - I think so. I think one of my first, like, as, and off the back of even being in the company for two years, like, and knowing people and knowing a lot of the different teams, especially in the UK, I still went out and put that time in to understand like who are these stakeholders now? What are their challenges at like a senior level? What are their challenges? And how can I support them to do what they need to do? Because if I'm able to do that and I'm able to connect with them on what their overall objectives are, goals are, I can then support that. Like, I can help that. I can do what I need to do from a new one perspective to build out a roadmap to deliver against that, right? So, it's like connecting on that level of like, what are you on the hook for? Because then I'll make sure I'm on the hook for it. And we're in this together, type. Working as a partnership, yeah. A manager level, very similar conversation, but also a little bit more, like, personable because, like, they're in the weeds day in, day out. And it's like, how do I take those pressures off of you? So we have our wider, like, business objectives that every business has that we need to support as a revenue function. But each of those managers have their own challenges and focuses in different ways. And so it's like, how can I intercept that? And even just listen, sometimes it's not about even doing anything. So, you know, the first thing I did was like, right, let's sit down and write everything that's annoying you that a enablement can help with. How long will you set down there for? We had probably three different meetings across three days. I think we still do. Because this is what I'm here to do. I mean, I did, like, make things less annoying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's just about putting it down and showing that, like, even if we can't prioritize that right now, I hear you and we'll figure out. And it's connected on that level. And then I think at the next level of, like, the teams that are, like, engaging more so with the enablement, it's like the things I said earlier. It's like creating that live environment. It's, you know, relating to their challenges. It's like using my own experiences of, like, when I used to make 200 calls a day, and they're like, oh, my god, like, you have to do that. Like, because sales is changing. Like, you know, A.I. is coming in. And you don't, like, those types of activities don't have to happen in the same way anymore. So then, like, oh, Jesus, okay, this person's been through the ringer. They get it. Yeah, they understand what it's like to grind. Yeah. And then we find common ground, right? But look, I think in my career, people have loved me, have probably hated me. I'm a bit like Marmite, I think, for some people. There's probably like elements of that. And again, that's where, like, they imposter syndrome can come into place of life. Don't like me. But actually, again, it's irrelevant, right? As long as we're delivering and I can turn around and say, if only one person walks out this room or reads some content and now gets it, then I've done my job. You've done your job, yeah, exactly. You mentioned there, you're like, like, Marmite. I like Marmite, just, you know, I don't. Marmite, you don't know. No. Trying to find common ground. Always good selling. So you're always selling. You mentioned we earlier. We sales people, right? Because you still are a salesperson that I think. Although, you know, a lot of enable enable people are sales. So you've obviously, you mentioned there, you've had people that haven't liked you. And that's absolutely fine. You've brushed them off whatever. Does the lack of credentials that you've got? I'm not being that in a bad way. Has that led to a comparison culture before for you in the past that I'm guessing it has? And guessing you've almost had to be looked down on, I guess, in a way? - I don't think so, because I think historically to like go cardless, I think when you start moving into operational roles, I think that can start to come into place. Sometimes they want like Prince 2, if you're doing project management, these types of things, right? But actually at go cardless again, the right environment is that like they've just embraced my ability to just get stuff done and do things and care about the company and what we're trying to achieve in whatever role that looks like. And I genuinely feel like I can't talk for them, but I mean, I genuinely feel that. I have an experience that because everything else has been very practical. - Yeah, good. - Like, nails has been marketing, has been, has been CS and a lot of the time you don't need, obviously qualifications per se to deliver that. But I think yeah, as soon as you start moving into that enablement, well, there's definitely starts to be, you can see on like job descriptions in terms of like, what they look for is like, yeah, we'd like it if you've got, you know, some sales experience and then actually the like mandatory stuff they want are some form of like qualification or, you know, university even, like, - The point I couldn't get a job before, you know, 10, 15 years ago, if it didn't have a degree. - Yeah. - And especially, and especially, yeah, especially I think that's crazy. And that's the thing there's still, there's still a prioritization of education or qualification, - Oh. - In credentials before there is experience. I think the other part of like credentials to note as well is like where you've worked historically. Because I think that's also, and this does interlink with them, Costa St. John, I'll tell you why. I think historically, with credentials, like, there's a part of it where it's like, okay, where have you worked, like, where have you, and I had interviews before go cardless where they were like, oh yeah, but you know, you've worked at like, small companies, how would you do it, you know, and there's still like this element of, I think, credential is part of a job role, like, oh, where you work before, what you've done before, rather than the physical benefits and advantages of the experiences you've had. - Uh-huh. - And I think that's the same with uni. And I think like, when I actually made the lead to apply for go cardless originally into this, my original role there in CSOPS, you know, I was sat there like, is this company a bit too big for me? Like, I might be able to start down yourself. - Yeah, you start down yourself. - Yeah. - You look at like, all the other jobs that you've applied for before, the job descriptions and it's like, you need desk, you need that, you need that. And like, this is like a well known organization. It's big, like, it's a huge amount of employees. Like, am I gonna have a place there? Like, am I gonna be able to do the things I, like, I've been great at doing in smaller companies? And it's like, yeah, of course you can. You just, you just scale it up. There's just a few more people to see it. And you just gotta find more efficient ways and you've got a lot, you have got to learn still. Like, having credentials like, over experience, doesn't mean that in experience, you still need to go and like, I have been self-taught in everything, whether that's sales and listening to podcasts on the training or, you know, whatever it may be, you know, I've always self-taught myself so that I am able to still like, apply those elements of credentials. But in a way that supports the experience that I'm in at that moment. - Yeah, it's such a good point. Are you giving yourself another podcast, listen to now? Listen back to yourself. - That's what you're gonna say. - And you're under the bus. (laughing) - Leveraging neurodiverse, here's a superpower, right? I think that's what you've been doing. And that's the, that's, that's becudos to you and sort of how you're getting on. But now I appreciate this. It's really good and it's, it's an out there subject and you know, the whole idea of running these podcasts is that we talk about things that people don't want to talk about, right? And maybe an even one isn't about certifications. Maybe it isn't. Maybe we just need to drive, well, it's all about driving self-access. We know that and real world experience does provide more value than formal training. And mindset matters, you know, I've been told this time and time again. Mindset is huge. You know, trust your experience and trust yourself and focus on that impact. But I thank you, Cardi. It's been, it's been a great session. And you, when did you last read the books around it by idiots? Because I know that's something you wanted to talk about, right? Not that you're surrounded by idiots that go cardless or say that. It's actually a nice one by idiots. It's a great book to be honest. It's all focused around like the, the different colors that someone has read, green, yellow and their personality traits and how they work together and how they, how you can get the most out of people that have those colors, but also like the potential weaknesses of people that have that color, but also how to like as a collective use those superpowers that each of those people have, types of people have to drive results. And I think an enablement is a great book because you know, we've, especially revenue enablement where we're looking at the full like go-to-market teams is like you do have very, CS people are very different to sales people. Yeah. Marketing people are very different again. So it's like how do we connect with those people and really try and understand their psychology and personalities so that we can get the most out of them and benefit everyone in the end? And not all sales people are red. Not all sales people are red, I think actually most of them are yellow. There you go. What color are you? Oh, I'm a little bit of everything. (laughing) I'm a little bit of everything. I can be a, I can be a, I can be, I can be, I'm probably heavily weighted in the yellow. There you go. This is why enablement kind of have to understand each of the different colors so then you can begin to manage that out. Yeah. Understand the way you go. I'm seeing in yourself as well, right? Because also, they need, I need to understand myself better to then be able to say, okay, you know, do I turn on my red here or do I turn on my green here? Like the type of person I'm dealing with which one am I gonna tap into more to get the best result I need? If I just go bulldozering in with someone who's, as hotheaded as I can be, as combative or whatever, you know, that's gonna cause friction. So I need to be aware of that in myself and what I'm turning up, turning down and balancing. Amazing. The psychology behind it, hey, if all else fails in an abement, you can go back to psychology. And the psychology, maybe that's the next step. Maybe it is. Maybe it is. But I thank you again. It's been, it's been superb. And for those of you listening to this one, please do reach out to Carly on her LinkedIn. Mark and team will put some flashy imaging up there. They'll put your name up in lights on the podcast with any luck. And yeah, go check out Go Carless. They're doing some really good stuff over there. Great team, great culture. And yeah, thank you so much. If there's anything else you wanted to add, Carly, before we wrap up. Nothing from me, Jack. I appreciate it. I appreciate being invited and talking around. That's good. Mine'll be the last time we have you on. So thank you so much. And yeah, this has been enablement. I should say I can't even say it now. Enablement uncan. Thanks everyone much for listening.