IM8 CEO on building the 'world's fastest-growing supplements brand' backed by David Beckham

Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Vapeline. We had like a billion dollar valuation at the list on the Nasdaq. Welcome. I'm Michelle Tau, a journalist most recently with CNN, and this is behind the business, a show about the people behind top consumer brands, category creators, and emerging disruptors, and how they push through to make the most of both work and life each day. Today's guest is Danny Young, co-founder and CEO of Pornetics, a breakout name and consumer health, and the leader of IMA, which builds itself as the world's fastest growing supplements brand. Pornetics is the parent company of IMA, which is already attracted global stars like co-founder David Beckham, and Ambassador Arena Sabelanka, who also served as investors. As you always expect to be operating this kind of orbit, because not every founder wouldn't necessarily be as bold as to say, "Hey, David, you want to come on board and be a co-founder, right?" If you never ask, you will always be getting all right. But the man behind all of that is Danny, a serial founder who first got on the road to entrepreneurship by bringing iconic Hong Kong dessert chain Hoi Lakshan to the US, and has since worked on everything, from venture capital to COVID and genetics testing, to health supplements, to a new bold bet on Bitcoin. We've chosen to put in excess cash into Bitcoin, even buying one Bitcoin on a daily basis. Full disclosure, Pornetics is a partner of behind the business, and we're grateful for their support this season. But truthfully, even long before this, I've been excited to get into the company's evolution, how it's grown and diversified at such a rapid clip, and the big turning points and lessons for Danny along the way. Danny, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Michelle, for having me. So before we get into the company, I would love to start with you. Can you walk us through your background where you grew up and what really shaped your ambitions really on? Yeah, so I'm thinking back, right? So I went to the US when I was age five. Basically, I was born in Hoi, China. My parents immigrated to US at the age of five. So I went to US, of course, I didn't speak any English, just learned it through school. And I started in the way of working at a very young age, at the time, I didn't really know any better, but at the age of 12, I was actually started selling baseball cards, right? Yeah, I went to, there was a baseball card shop near my home, so every day after school, I would visit it, I would buy baseball cards at one point, then the owner was like, "Hey, you're coming in every day while I'm just, you know, work for me," right? And then at the time, I was like, "Okay, fine." And he didn't pay me, he just paid me in baseball cards. But yeah, that was my first real business moment, because then it was really about understanding, about buying and selling. Wait, tell me again, what age were you in this habit? I was 12. So it wasn't even necessarily a conscious thing you set out to do, I'm guessing. Like you didn't know you wanted to go and start your own business early on, but it sounds like you had that drive. You know, at the back of my, I also do remember when I was also like, maybe around the same age 12, I was telling my, you know, classmate say, "As a one day, my dream job is to be an entrepreneur or a CEO," because when I went to the US, you know, my parents were very poor, right? They didn't have any money. So I kind of already figured out a very early age, how I can create my own destiny was to be my own boss at one point. Of course, I didn't know what I was going to do, but I always wanted to be an entrepreneur at a very young age. Take control of your own life. Yes. You know, I was going to ask as well, I think I heard that you were a telemarketer at one point, like you were just very scrappy with being able to convince people and sell people on ideas. Is that right? Yeah. At age 15, that's when I started having a real first job, I would say, as I was a telemarketer, right? So I remember I'll be working at, you know, basically 6 p.m. till like 9.30 p.m., and I would be selling time shares on over the phone, right? Yeah. So it taught me a lot, right? Because I think as a telemarketer, you're faced with rejection on a nightly basis, right? And then you just have to, number one, overcome it very fast, have a very thick skin. And in the shortest amount of time possible, have to convince the other person that you don't know, you have to take an action. And that worked. Yeah, it worked, right? I mean, I remember it as like after 6 months of being a telemarketer, and I was literally like managing people in their 30s, right? And this was, I think I wasn't even 16 at that point, because a lot of the telemarketers at the time, they're like home makers or other, maybe a little bit, either they're very young students, or they're like in their 30s or 40s as home makers, they want to make an extra income, right? So I had a lot of experience at a young age, and it was like really good money. I was like 15, and this was like literally like 30 years ago, and I was making like 15 bucks an hour, right? So I was very, very happy as a teenager. Did you then continue working pretty much the whole time since that age, or what was the kind of, you know, transition there? Yeah, I think so. And transition wise, I was always, I was working, I was kind of going to school, I wasn't really going to school. I got, you know, I can mention it now that of course, you know, there's some level of success I've been able to achieve. But growing up in San Francisco at that time was, it was quite a difficult time, yeah, for me. I actually got kicked out of three different high schools, right? So, and for the same reason, for like fighting, okay? So you went, if you look at me now, you're like, hey, that's the last thing you would envision myself being, because I'm usually very calm, thoughtful, and strategic, but when I was early on, it was like, you know, I just felt like, yeah, I always had something to prove, I would say. And then, you know, I didn't even graduate high school, right? So at that time, I got a GED, which has come like the worst thing. You would want your kid or child to have, right? Which is called a general education diploma, and I got that like, I think at 16, right? And then ever since, I just been kind of working. You know, it's so interesting, because some of the most successful founders that I've talked to, they didn't really care about school. They always just learn by doing, and I wonder if that was something that you just knew early on. Like, I just so much prefer working and like being, doing practical hands-on work versus studying. Yes, correct. I mean, I was, I mean, I tell my team, I was definitely never like, book smart, but I always understood and got things very fast, and it was like, I was, I mean, in a way, those teenagers, I grew up kind of on the streets, right? Just kind of learning, earning hands-on, experience, and even before, right, it was really learning about, you know, making mistakes and fine-tune it. And you know, before starting genetics, it seems like you had nine lives. For those who don't know, let's just walk through your CV briefly. You were a founding partner of an early stage venture fund. You founded a company called UBII, which was essentially a deals platform that was snapped up by Groupon, where you later served as CEO of Groupon East Asia. And once even had a stint in the furniture business I read, but probably my favorite one of the lot is that, as I mentioned, you helped bring Hong Kong's iconic dessert chain, Hwala Sean to the U.S. What a journey, right? What were some of kind of the highlights of these experiences that still really inform how you lead today? I started Hwala Sonback, I think, at that age, I was like 24, right, and that was, I always wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I knew I needed some work experience and capital to get there, right? And so I had worked, started working from full-time wise from 18 to 24, an internet company. So I had a really great experience in terms of a basically work, learning, and how to scale as an employee. And then when I had the opportunity to bring Hwala Son from Hong Kong to the U.S. and that was just really by YangPierre. Again, going back to my telemarketing, I didn't have any background in business. So I actually co-called the head office of Hwala Son and asked them if they would be interested to bring Hwala Son into the U.S. Because I really like Hwala Son at the time, I was thinking, "Hey, how come this doesn't exist in the U.S.?" And so I co-called Hwala Son, they're like, "Hey, can you send me a business plan?" I was like, "What?" I never did a business plan before, right? And so I went to Google and I was telling Google how to make a business plan, then I bought a business software license for 40 bucks, and then like three days I got out like a 40-page business plan to send it back to them. And for somehow they accepted my proposal, and it was just through by share determination and just kind of trying to figure things out on my own, and being a great researcher and still at that time was Google. Right now, of course, it's evolved to like using AI tools. So fast forward, 2014, you started Pranetics. You have said, Danny, that the vision from day one was to turn Pranetics into a global health company. What does this really mean to you, and what initially drew you to the space in particular? Did you always have an interest in health and wellness? Yeah. So maybe just to back up a little, so give everyone a little bit more context in terms of, because I was living in the U.S. and then how did I actually come to Hong Kong? Yeah. And then 2010 was, you know, my friend just sent me a text, yeah, I was like, have you heard about Groupon? I was like, no, I haven't heard about Groupon, I clicked a link, and I read that they just raised $950 million. at that time right at that time wise they were the first company to hit like $1 billion in revenue within like I don't know some 12 or 18 months some crazy metric or something like that and I was like wow amazing business idea great concept consumers win merchants win and I was like hey how can I take this business concept and launch it somewhere right and then I knew I can't launch it in the U.S. because they were already very big at that time they already value like $2.3 billion right and I was thinking you know what where else can I launch this then I within a month of finding out about Groupon I moved and packed my bags and moved to Hong Kong and this was March 2nd 2010 I still remember vividly because it was so yeah monumental because then I literally moved from U.S. to Hong Kong because I wanted to start the same concept and I knew speed was critical because opportunity someone doesn't wait for you right you so you have to take the opportunity when there's time and then March 2nd moved to Hong Kong on June 28th 2010 basically in span of three months I had no e-commerce experience at that time then we launched the platform the website in both Hong Kong and Taiwan and then six months later we racked out about one million monthly in revenue and then Groupon then started going international and then they're they're started looking to acquire the market leader in each city internationally and then yeah ended up they acquired 51% of you buy by the time then I became the East Asia CEO from 2010 to 2014 and we led it to being the you know largest e-commerce company region right and then that's very relevant to what we're doing now where I'll share with you guys later on in terms of IMA because that gave me so much background experience in e-commerce consumer digital marketing performance marketing delete funnel landing pages and custom acquisition all that stuff right right that was your first foray until like D to C yes correct yeah at a at a at scale right so much to unpack there okay the first follow-up is why Hong Kong is that like just where you your family has ties here or not had no ties to Hong Kong actually I zero ties because again I moved from mainland China to the U.S. young ones fine right by just felt like hey you know Hong Kong could be a great place however when I moved to Hong Kong to even tell people about this concept everyone actually told me to go back to the U.S. and said this concept will not work in Hong Kong because they're like hey the rents too expensive and the key thing is nobody used e-commerce at the time no one used the internet to buy things right but I felt like if we deliver on a great product and we're great marketing then consumers will pay for it and ultimately that's what he did and how do you even go about setting that up because it sounds like it all happened at rapid speed right because you said within three months I then like was up and running and all that you did you you had a co-founder who was your buddy I assume yeah I had a co-founder took care of more of the the finance piece right but let's say getting supply on the merchants getting the website operationally I mean that was all like yeah me and and we only had like yeah a few people on the ground right so it was a really big crime in the beginning so that gave you kind of your foundation into what you launch now so let's talk about pranetics because obviously this has been your baby now for more than 10 years tell me a little bit about the vision that you had initially starting out and how that's kind of evolved over time yeah correct so when I left Groupon it was you know April of 2010 and then after you know I wanted it's actually I was thinking about taking a break right I didn't know how long of break then I started you know in between investing early stage companies because I just had a good exit from Groupon right I think in the summer I've got really fascinated with 23 and me I was like yeah because I found about 23 and me I was just fascinated that you can find out so much information from just a saliva swap right and then I started doing lots of research I was thinking research in terms of the science you know how to actually do it etc etc right and then I was fortunate to be able to you know find a few you know co-founders and basically that came from the geneticists and science background to be able to create pranetics and then the basis for that was a I think I was you know I think was mid-dirties at the time I had just had my first daughter and then health was become much more important right and then I was thinking you know what there was very feel healthcare entrepreneurs at that time there's still is right but you're thinking about 11 years ago was really though I was thinking how come yeah if there is then why don't I do that and then so that's why I started pranetics and the name comes from prevention genetics because I felt if you have more data about yourself you know the more you can proactive to live healthier and it sounds like that doesn't ever stop you from going into a new field you know like the lack of previous experience in that direct field right because health and wellness it's it can be intimidating to people right yeah very intimidating especially when you're talking about genetic testing DNA test so even at that time for funding and investing you're like Danny you just went from selling coupons and how do you know about DNA testing right so it's a very very wide gap yeah but again I think I'm quite good you know research and I like to read a lot about yeah if I'm passionate about something I'll go very in deaf to understand every little detail about the product and which right now if you put me in front of any scientist doctor professor I can have a very very you know great intelligent conversation with them you can hold your own yes yeah okay so in the early days then what were the initial challenges when it came to scaling up and even just getting things running right because you talked a little about funding I was curious even you know when it came down to financing did you go out on breeze right away were you bootstrapping initially how did you approach that yes and the biggest challenge was really the science piece right again trying really understanding that yeah and just doing lots of studying and again I wasn't the one yeah in the lab per se that was you know Lawrence my co-founder but again he previously had a separate company but again it's and he had great science yeah but he didn't understand how to commercialize it right so you so for me I came in come have to understand the science and then put a commercialization model on top of it right because then then that's only where you succeed and then initially when we we came into it it was you know I think myself and the fee investors we put in roughly two and a half million USD into the business to get started and then of course you know we've had you know follow on funding rounds after that right I see and what were some of the hardest things I guess when it came to tackling that you said the science bit was obviously something that you had to overcome but it sounds like you managed to overcome that was there anything else that surprised you about the space that you really felt like was a challenge again DNA testing globally wasn't very new right but adding in Asia it was even more new yeah all right because naturally I think Asia there's a lag time about you know three to five years right when it comes to like yeah health solutions and then so I didn't want the biggest challenges early on was actually getting people to pay for it all right because I think what early on was and I just came from direct to consumer and logically people thought I was gonna sell the DNA testing kits online but I did some tests like customer acquisition tests but the acquisition calls were way too expensive right that to make it profitable right so then we never did DTC initially so we want to be to be to see and so when went to BWBC it was actually working with large insurance companies right like AIA Prudential, Marriolive etc to offer them DNA testing value added services you know to their client base yeah yeah so yeah so somehow when we were able to convince them to offer it to their customers to their clients ask a way for them to know more about their health I was gonna ask who which businesses did you target but that actually makes perfect sense actually when you think about it so I have to say Danny I first came across pranetics as a user as many people did here in Hong Kong where we're chatting today because obviously one of the reasons that you guys first rose to prominence I think in the general public was as a major COVID test provider here right during the pandemic which of course was a huge opportunity for businesses like yours so can you kind of talk through going through that period as well as you know what really happened following that because I imagine there's a story early on during the COVID time period right it was like March 2020 and then all of a sudden I had like you know multiple friends reached out to me just to say you know Danny do you guys do PCR testing right and the first few times I responded with no it's like hey we don't do that we're DNA testing company right and then after like maybe the fifth person said the same thing we're like hey that's how to you know my science team is saying there's something here right and then when more research at the time was very difficult to get a PCR test yeah you had to go to the hospital was very expensive I remember that time was like you know five six hundred dollars USD just for a test but the challenge with that is if you wanted to do a test you don't want to go outside you don't want especially don't want to go to a hospital right and then so then you know in the span of maybe about two to three weeks then we came up with the first at home saliva PCR tests and then basically we just ship it yeah from our laboratory to this individual's home in Hong Kong and every day we so out with like yeah and was very little right and that time we just wanted to help the community and we sold it you know pretty much at the time at cost it was like a hundred bucks USD compared to five hundred dollars when you're getting to add a hospital right so we just saw you know two hundred two hundred test a day and we're completely so out. And then I remember, you know, even that was April in 2020, we had a meeting with the former Chief Executive Hong Kong Carrie Lam, and we're saying, you know, we have this capacity of this laboratory, you know, you know, what you guys need help, right, to be able to test the community. At the time, they rejected us, right? They say, we don't need help. You know, we can do this by ourselves, et cetera, et cetera, right? Thanks, but no thanks. Yeah, correct. And at the time, right? And then we'll have in the center. Yeah. Then of course, then the pronoun got worse and worse, right? And then we were scaling, but of course, we don't we didn't want to just wait for the government. We weren't we were scaling from like, you know, 200 tests at the on a daily basis to I think at one point, it was like, yeah, 6, 700 tests on a daily basis. And then when the pandemic got really bad starting in July, we had a further follow-up meeting with the governor, like, hey, you guys been successful already with this, you know, at a home PCR test, can you help us scale out this further? And they're like, and they're like, you know, what do you mean? I'm like, hey, you know, we want to do mass testing on any was at time 18,000 restaurants and 300,000 restaurant workers. And then we're like, how long will we have to take, right? They're like, we want to do it as soon as possible. And there's like a, we want to do it in four weeks time, right? You know, it was quite crazy to us at the time, right? But basically, then we dropped everything. We, we basically completed that I think in literally four weeks time tests at 300,000 workers across Hong Kong. And then, yeah, those three years, yeah, again, we could then we never intended to like, yeah, do millions of PCR tests. But what happened in Hong Kong was there was at one point, I think like 10 to 15 different providers, but the majority of the providers, they kept messing up somewhere in terms of giving false pauses, false negatives, the data security wasn't good, logistics wasn't good, et cetera. And then so we're the only one that the government kept coming to us. They're like, hey, can you do more? Can we do more? And then we end up at our height doing 40,000 PCR tests on daily basis. We operated to feel the testing centers. We operated all of the testing at the airport. So any individual that we came on the airport, you would need to do a pranetics PCR test on arrival. Right. And so that was three years was like, I think at one point, we had like 3000 people. It was, you know, quite crazy because it was literally 24/7. Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Just plum. Do we hydrate it skin? That still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. But what happened post COVID? Because I understand you dismantled that side of the business. Oh, yeah. So of course, right in the middle of COVID, and again, it's just comforting and strategically we're doing, you know, quite well. Right. So we utilize the opportunity to listen to NASDAQ. So in May 2022, we'll list on the NASDAQ. We had like a billion dollar valuation at the time because COVID was still ongoing. The revenues was like quite high. I remember each of those three years where, yeah, in total, we did 800 million revenue in three years. Right. Which is quite crazy because in 2019, one year prior to COVID, we did 10 million revenue. So we went from 10 million to like 250 million revenue. So post COVID at the end of, you know, 23, right. So of course, our revenues dropped very significantly because there's no more testing. And I didn't want one good thing that we did is that once we knew, you know, COVID was going to end, we dismantled the team very, very fast. I mean, that was for the benefit of the company and also for the employees because at the end of the day, you know, if we had kept that going, our fixed cost would have been way too high. And so that's where I think a lot of the companies, for example, in the US, you know, there were at least, you know, four or five companies. They also listed, they were like pieced out of COVID testing. They also listed their company. They had like two, three, four billion dollar valuations. And they're all now bankrupt or they're no longer listed because they stayed at it a little bit too long. And for us, we, we made, definitely made the right decision looking back that we dismantled that team very, very fast. So we can focus, say, you know what, we know COVID's not going to be there. And then we have to move forward with a new strategy. Right. You know, laying off your team, obviously, that's never easy. And on this show, we love to ask people what their toughest day at work was. I imagine that that must have been one of the hardest times for you, though, just as a human, of course. 100% right? Because again, a lot of those people, they were very instrumental as well. Yeah. In those three years, right? And then, but yeah, I knew from a pair business perspective, why so it was actually the best for them because everyone needs to kind of move on. Otherwise, yeah, they're sitting in the office with nothing to do. Yeah. All right, because there was no testing, right? So it was good for both sides to be able to move for as fast as possible. Can I ask like what percentage, if you remember, of like your head count that was at the time? Because I imagine that was like a pretty big, like subset of your, your police. It was, it was probably like 90, 90 plus percent. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Because we had like few thousand people, right? Yeah. At that point. Yeah. That's wild. So one of the pillars that Pranetic started next was Insighta, a $200 million joint venture focused on early cancer detection. You've previously announced the development of $200 tests that would allow you to detect certain types of cancer with a simple blood draw. These are obviously a really big goals. Can you share an update on where this is now? Sure. So after COVID now, we again, we had cash from the operations as well as from the IPL. So we made an investment into Insighta, which is the early cancer detection. Come now, we're not operating the company. All right. So it's a little bit different. Yeah. But of course, we believe that in the future, yeah, having an easy way to identify cancer at the earliest stages is going to be a big breakthrough now for individuals here in Asia and around the world, right? So in terms of where that company is, it's also co-founded by Professor Dennis Lowe, which is the godfather of non-vacipretal testing. We're still a good few years out before commercialization, but we do feel there's significant, yeah, a potential with that. And last October, I did see there was an interesting announcement about Insighta scoring a $30 million investment from Chinese tech giant, 10 cents. Yeah. That must have been very nice. There's only other investor in Insighta. And again, we our stake in Insighta is valued at $70 million, so it's a decent chunk. And we've been very happy for them coming in. How did that deal come together? Because it's not every day you land a whale like that, right? Yeah. So I think for, you know, Tencent or some of the larger companies now, they see, I think they're all trying to get into healthcare, right? And especially, you know, with Tencent, they're the the strategic aspect there is the AI piece. Yeah. And so we're utilizing the AI algorithms to improve the sensitivity and specificity of the test. Speaking of milestones, another high point of this journey is one that you alluded to just now, which must have been going public, right? In 2022, Pernetic's headed to Wall Street and became the first Hong Kong Unicorn to list on the NASDAQ. What did that moment mean to you, Danny? Especially, you know, to represent the city in this way. I would say I think it was a proud moment for Hong Kong in general because, again, it's quite rare that you can, you know, bring Hong Kong to the global stage, right? And listing the company on NASDAQ. It was certainly in my house room for myself. I mean, in the early days of Pernetic's, I had visions, I say, one day, you know, we're going to list on the NASDAQ. Of course, I didn't know how, but I just had that idea at the time. Yeah. So, you know, starting with a very memorable moment for us. Yeah. I see a trend emerging here, by the way. It's just like, you know, when you were that kid selling baseball cards and you were thinking about how you wanted to make your own money, you know, but you didn't know how. And you just went after it. It sounds like you are the type that has that goal in mind pretty early on. As with many other post-backed mergers, you know, Pernetic's has seen pressure on its market cam over the past couple of years. How are you approaching this? And what do you want folks to understand about, you know, where the business actually stands today versus what the stock price might suggest? One of the key challenges I would say since listing, you know, on the NASDAQ, you know, three years ago, and again, I was, I was new, I was a new public company CEO, so there's a lot of different challenges, lots of investor stakeholders that you have to deal with. So, when we list it, we're like, you know, one billion dollars, right? And then in the last three years, I think the low point we went from one billion dollars, I think at one point our market was like, you know, 30 to 40 million dollars, right? So, of course, our revenues dropped significantly. And then in 2025, I mean, this year, right? So our share price, yeah, one from 30, 40 million dollars. Now, I think it's today's like 240 million dollars. So it's made quite big recovery since our lows. And do believe the business has never been more healthier or more sustainable than it is today. So in terms of where we are today, why is I mean, this year, full year revenue, we're going to be, again, this is all public information. We'll hit roughly about 90 to 100 million revenue. A significant majority of this revenue is coming from IAM 8, which is the new brand that we've launched with David Beckham just, yeah, literally 12 months ago, right? Your new baby, we'll get to that. Yeah. You've spoken about wanting to build pranetics obviously for the long run. Now, as a public company, obviously you also report to Wall Street every quarter. It's the age old question. How do you navigate that tension between delivering on short-term investor expectations versus, you know, staying focused on the long-term mission? Give me an example, right? So let's say like 12 months ago, right? So 12 months ago was, you know, when we just launched IMA I had a lot of investors reach out to me at the time saying, you know, you should be doing more, you know, roadshows talking to investors, blah, blah, blah, etc, right? So by my view at that point was, hey, you know what? I didn't have a story to talk about. So there's no point for me to talk to investors if I personally don't believe I have a story to talk about, right? So I was like, I will talk to these guys in a year. That was my message a year ago, right? And that's exactly kind of what happened in terms of, hey, in the last past year I've been very, very focused on growing the business basically from scratch to whereas today, a market cap, of course, is growing significantly in the past 12 months where it was 12 months ago and now I'm actually going out to talk to more investors and because now I have a story to tell and this is a great growth story. Yeah, absolutely. So your approach was, you know, let me get heads down on this and I'll come back to all of you later. What metrics do you pay most attention to as a leader I'm curious to, you know, gauge the company's health? It's basically from, you know, revenues to our balance sheet, all right? So I think again, this year, you know, we're growing immensely fast. Yeah, we'll hit $9,200 million. We also have a very healthy balance sheet, all right? So our balance sheet, we have more than 70 million in cash. We have another 510 in Bitcoin, which is valued at approximately, 46, 47 million dollars. So about 17, 120 million in peer cash on liquid assets and zero debt. Yeah, so I think that was also very strategic because early on, a lot of people asked us to take on debt. We always said no to it. And so it makes us in a very financial, good financial health. I think if you look at our loss on a quarterly basis in Q1 of this year, you know, we lost like 6.5 million, Q2, we lost 4.3, Q3, we lost 2.1. So we're cutting 2 million on a quarterly basis. And then so all these metrics are very, very positive from a financial health perspective. Let's turn to IAM 8. Pranetics now flagship consumer brand, which recently marked us its first year in business, as you mentioned. It looks like it's already been quite a ride. You previously said in the first month alone, IAM 8 pulled in $600,000 in revenue, which later jumped to 6 million in monthly revenue. Now the company says it's on track to do 60 million this year. Do you always know that it was going to be this big or has it surpassed even your wildest dreams and expectations? We weren't in a good position in the middle of 2019. Because, you know, again, COVID died. Our existing business wasn't scaling as fast as I like. Yeah, because we were doing a lot of clinical and genomic tests. And then with that, it takes a lot of regulatory aspects. And a very long cycles, right? So we wanted to create a new business unit. And then we're at that time. Okay, what do we do? And so I was thinking, okay, we had the last 10 years as a science driven organization. And it's like, there must be something that we can do in the consumer space. And coincidentally, I also had, again, this is also by chance. I was having dinner with my very good friend, Michelle Lamonere. He's a founder and executive chairman of Tattole Asia. And then we're having dinner one night. And he was saying to me, when he was going to meet with David Beckham over dinner in London two weeks time. So he asked me to join. He asked me, hey, do you want to come have dinner with David Beckham? Like, hey, you know, why not? That's just casual. Let's have a meeting, right? In the back of my mind, I was like, yeah, this could be a great opportunity to have him join as, you know, potential of doing something together, right? And so, you know, I met with David. We got along really great with him and his team. We're like, hey, you know, what if we take a very science-based approach into the consumer supplements world, right? And he was also sharing how he was having a lot of difficulty on consuming supplements on a daily basis. Because he doesn't, he didn't like taking, you know, 12, 13, 14 pills, him and Victoria together, right? And then there must have been a better way to do this. And I don't like, hey, I do believe there is a better way to do this. That, basically, we can create a supplement. And that can replace a lot of these supplements in the easy to consume drink, right? So, that's how we came up with IM8. And after a good three to four months, then we confirmed to work together and him coming on board as a co-founder of IM8. So, it really was an idea hatched between the two of you? Correct. There was no product before. There was no name. I think just started from that one conversation. And of course, you know, going back to your question is that, you know, of course, we had projections for the business, but we project it in the first year that we're going to have approximately 30 million in four-year revenue. And now, you know, we'll easily cross 60 million in four-year revenue. And like you mentioned earlier, last December when we launched, you know, we had, yeah, 600,000 in monthly revenue. Last month, we had 10 million in monthly revenue, right? So, it's actually the fastest ever brand in the supplements industry to hit 100 million and a recurring revenue in less than 11 months. Typically, I'll take you, I'll take any new brand and do it in three years, but we did it in under one year. And to what do you attribute that success? Because it sounds like even by your own estimates, you know, you were really pleasantly surprised. Yes, of course. So I think, you know, when we created the brand I made, and we sought out to create literally the best product on the market, coupled with full transparency on the ingredients, the dosages. We saw there was a gap because again, I think we made a few bolt bets, right? In creating the product, the formulation, and even, again, at the time, you know, all the rage was actually green powders, right? There's a flat one, a G1, heal, et cetera. But so it was been the most easy for us to create just another green powder. But we wanted to be a bit more bold. So we came up with I am eight, still name means I am the eight means longevity. We flip it around. And coincidentally, due to the ingredients, it was red, right? And so we created this new red powder. And our USP was 16 supplements in one drink. And on day one, we also recruited the best scientists and doctors and professors around the world, right? 'Cause I think a lot of times when you look at somebody, you don't actually know who's creating that supplement. So for example, we got Dr. Don Moussele from Mail Clinic. We got Team Screen, a form chief scientist of NASA. We got Dr. David Katz from Yale. So these are normally individuals that don't work with supplement brands, just because there's a lot of bad aches in the industry. But for day one, for example, we did clinical trials, right? That showed the efficacy of the product. We got NSF certification for sport, right? Which means that if you're a professional athlete, you'll know it's free from 280 band substances, tests for heavy metals. Every single ingredient dosage is their party tested to ensure that if it says it has 100 milligrams on the label, it's exactly 100 milligrams in the bottle or in the product, right? So we did all those things from day one. It's so critical, I think, and something that is actually really overlooked in this space, as someone who moved to America recently, I've been really flabbergasted to see how much of the stuff is still unregulated. So I think it's very refreshing to see that you guys even openly share third-party testing, for instance. But just to the question earlier, I guess, were there any specific growth drivers, just for anyone out there listening to this? And that was obviously hoping to replicate some form of this success. They don't always have people like David Beckham behind them starting. But is there anything that you would advise? I think for any industry, the first thing you have to understand is how do you create trust and credibility, right? And so that's key, right? Because it doesn't matter how great your product is, you have to be able to basically convey trust and credibility. And so for us, again, having David was a significant, everyone will pay attention because of David Beckham. And of course, I realize now everyone's going to get a David Beckham. So you have to be able to, in a way, still be able to convey that sense of trust and credibility. And then ending for us also, we didn't take any shortcuts, right? With the product, because even from a formulation perspective, we could easily want to manufacture it. You have so many formulations, as they say for us. You know, we knew we needed a custom formulation created by our scientific team. So you had to have a good product backed by science. You know, we also had a great brand, you know, I made, you know, the branding, everything was spot on, you know, the shape, the color, the box, everything, all the little details. And even if you look at our website, every module was specifically created, you know, with customer experience in mind, right? So also from day one, we shipped to 31 countries. We had all this transparency. I think Keating is transparency on a website. We even show who manufactures our product, which is quite unheard of, too. So that, yeah. On the website, because anyone can just go to our manufacturer and say, we show it with transparency on our website, right? Yeah. So I think, again, going back to trust, credibility, transparency, and these are things that consumers are seeing. out nowadays. Trust is key. And what has it been like working with Beckham as a partner because obviously there's a lot of skepticism at times about whether celebrity just throws their name on something. Has he been quite hands-on to work with? How has it been? So I think the key thing again to work with celebrity again there's been I think more failures than success cases and because a lot of times celebrities just put their name onto something which they don't believe in or is not authentic, right? But nowadays I didn't consumer so smart to understand what's actually real, what's not real. Especially again because these celebrities are out and about as Hatcher, right? So I think with David it's it's it's such an amazing because he's such an authentic co-founder. You know, he uses the product daily, Victoria uses the product day, his his trainers use the product daily, his family. And then you know, he's sharing with his friends and family. So that becomes a very authentic connection that resonates with the community, right? So, you know, of course, his team is highly involved. We've talked to his team on a weekly basis. So they're not just I'm putting the name to just the name, right? So I think it's been quite amazing. There been very detailed in terms of brand partnerships, the brand, you know, David, you know, tests out all the new formulations before it goes live and also the tastes of the product. Yeah, he also wants to make sure it doesn't only function, but people enjoy it as well. Another celebrity you recently brought on is the world's number one female tennis player, arena suba linka. How was that partnership born? I hear there's a great story of you guys meeting in David's box. Yeah. And very casual. Oh, correct, right? So I think, you know, that was also I think at least in the last 12, once another, you know, major, you know, critical piece to being able to establish trust and credibility. Right? Because I think how that relation came about in early this year, I think it was well, you know, January, February, you know, Jason Stacey arena's performance college started taking it for about three to four weeks. And then he felt, you know, great about taking it energy levels recovery, etc. And then he suggested to arena to try it out, right? And then she started taking it in I think for about three months time and then coincidentally, you know, David invited me to into Miami box and we had a yeah, I was there. And then next to me was arena suba linka, right? And then so she was next to me, I was talking to her. And then she was like, oh, you know, what did you do? And she's like, yeah, she was very humble. She loves play a little bit tennis, right? On the court, she's so such a fierce person. But outside of course, she's such so amazing as as a human being. She makes a lot of jokes very easy to be around with. And then afterwards in after that, her team reached out to me and say, you know, arena's been on the product. She loves the product. And you know, can we partner together? And then so I think that was also a really great organic and authentic partnership that we cemented in June. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable how naturally these things seem to come about for you. You know, I'm just so curious because for someone out there listening, right? You just seem like you're kind of known, obviously, I think in Hong Kong circles, especially as like a mover and shaker, you know, you partnered with all these celebrities. From the outside, one might wonder, how are you even meeting these folks and getting them excited to begin with? Did you ever kind of hesitate when it came to making the ask or I guess with arena, it sounds like that was them approaching you? But, you know, did you always expect to be operating in this kind of orbit? Because not every founder wouldn't necessarily be as bold as to say, hey, David, you want to come on board and be a co-founder, right? Yeah. If you never ask, you'll always get know, right? At the same time, you have to amgen these people, they're meeting with business people all the time. They're meeting their connect with all the smallest people in the world. So I think you have to create value for what you're offering, right? And you have to be very specific in terms of what you're building out. So I think in throughout the whole process, whenever David asked me a question or arena, asked me, of course, I always had an answer. And not just an answer, I had a good answer that could let them know, you know, we know exactly what we're doing and how we're going to go about it. And I always try to provide to all partners. And again, I'm not trying to think from a company perspective, I'm not trying to, how can I order company, create value for you? All right? And then in for David, I told him, hey, you know, I know David, you know, for example, you know, if you did this, it's going to be a huge reputation of risk on you if something worked to go wrong, right? Because no one's going to care about Danny, right? That's the reality. Yes, like I take that with a significant sense of responsibility that I will know that we won't put a product onto the market unless it was the best in the market, right? I respect and trust so much that people trust me on this. And I'll try to deliver over deliver on that value. It's fascinating, especially because I'm sure David gets a lot of offers, you know, to be part of stuff like this. And you know, the fact that he said, yes, I think is really testament to the approach that you guys have taken. I want to turn back to pranetics for a moment because earlier this year, you guys also came out with a huge announcement. In June, you made headlines for announcing the company was pivoting to a Bitcoin treasury strategy for people who may not follow this closely. What does this actually mean? So what this actually means is that we have our operating business of now, let's say, you know, IMA is the main driver of our operating business that we're going to be focusing on. And given that we have excess cash on top of what we need operation only, we're putting our excess cash into Bitcoin, right? And so, for example, you know, previous to this, we're putting a lot of our cash just into AP Morgan's like getting 3.5, whatever percentage interest rates. Yeah. And that's, you know, in some cases, yeah, inflation could be even greater than that, right? So instead of putting it in all of our excess cash and fixed deposits, we've chosen to put in excess cash into Bitcoin. Uh, we made a $20 million initial purchase in June and after that, we've been buying one Bitcoin on a daily basis. And that that shows you a word not basically speculative, but we're long term on the asset because it's a great fit hedge against inflation. If you look at it from a, you know, 3, 5, 10 year horizon, that's the horizon of time that we have, right? So that's what we've been able to do. And now as of today, I mean, we have about 510 Bitcoin on balance sheet. And just so folks understand the plan is to also to use these assets to fund your expansion continuously, right? Like, what does that actually look like? Because I understand one of the board members you brought on, Andy Chung, the former COO of a top crypto exchange, has said that it's not just about passive Bitcoin storage, it's not just a buy and hold tactic. There's a lot of different things that you guys are considering when it comes to these assets. Yeah, because I think there's a lot of opportunity to even create yield, you know, from the Bitcoin that we purchase, right? On top of just the buying and holding, right? So yeah, it just creates more flexibility and options for us as we continue to grow the business. Is it a mix of like buying and selling Bitcoin as its value grows, just for anyone who might be wondering exactly how this works or is it using Bitcoin as collateral or how does that work? So right now, we've only bought and hold, yeah, but we are looking to explore creating yield on our Bitcoin, for example, buying cover call options, et cetera, right? So we haven't done that yet, yeah, but we're exploring opportunities to create yield on top of the Bitcoin. Watch the space. Yeah. To many people, health and crypto may seem like completely different worlds. What made you want to kind of marry the two? And what was the reaction both internally and externally when you first shared this decision, were people kind of like, wait, what? I see health and wealth being very connected, yeah, because basically if you don't have, if you have wealth and you don't have health is also, yeah, it doesn't really mean that much, right? Yeah, but again, so I think the ideal situation for anyone is that you have both health and wealth. So I think this is the most ideal situation. So of course, when we first announced it back in June, you know, there was a lot of, you know, question marks in terms of again, why we were doing this, yeah, but as long as they understood this a bit more, is that we're not like in the markets trading every day, right? Because that would be still time, because then we're not also speculating on Bitcoin, right? Because otherwise we wouldn't be doing the, you know, one BDC dollar cost averaging strategy, right? So but once they understood it better and they kneel, you know what? We didn't raise any debt to acquire the Bitcoin, right? And we still have, again, you know, 70 million cash needed to grow the IMA business further, then this just gives us the opportunity to be more flexible in the future and have a appreciating asset. You've said before, the future of health is longevity and the future of wealth is Bitcoin. Can you kind of unpack that? Like, how did you come to this realization? Yeah, longevity and it's such a big topic, right? I mean, I think typically, you know, people are talking about this, when you're getting like 50 and above, right? But now people in their 20s are talking about health and longevity, right? It's not just about living older. It's about having a really good quality of life, even when you're getting to the 60, 70s and 80s, right? So but now there's so much new science that can actually have that potential that everyone can live much healthier, even though you get older, right? Or even like slowing out the aging process, correct? So I think all these things are possible. Yeah, especially in the last, I would say the last 24, 36 months, right? Were you already a holder of Bitcoin personally and you just realized like this is really where I think the future is going when it comes to finance. - No, I mean, to be honest, I wasn't until early this year. Again, just in the reality was I have a few good friends that have been this base for the last 10 years. I just never looked into it again, but when I finally looked into it and researched it and understood the limit of supply and then understood I basically love these other assets going silver or appreciating at a very fast rate. Then Bitcoin and Darius should also appreciate at a similar rate as well. And so it's given them the supply factor of it, right? So I feel like, you know, if you want to protect your wealth, yeah, that Bitcoin is a great storage of that. - Love it or hate is a bold but either way and one that I think speaks to the kind of leader you are, I be remiss if I didn't know that obviously Bitcoin has swung in value quite a bit from above 110K down to 85K just in recent months, you've already alluded to the fact that this happens. I guess what do you make of that and what's your response to critics who say, this is too risky? - Yeah, so I think volatility will always be there, right? I think, yeah, that's, that's, that's no brainer, right? Because, and we knew that going into it, right? Because, but at the same time wise, we always, I always believe that if we don't, it's a bigger risk if we don't do anything, right? Yeah, but again, and this is why we've also did not do any other coins or any of the all coins or E for Salana, but we chose Bitcoin because I believe that's the long, the best storage of wealth piece, right? In terms of the criticism, of course, there has been some, right? But the reality is, hey, I think right now no one can be critical of it because no one can see the future, right? Even for myself, I believe in the long term future of this. We're talking about, again, three, five, 10 years out. I don't think there's anyone that can say, you know, in three, five years out, you know, Bitcoin's going to be 50,000, 150, 500,000, right? Who's to say, right? So I think we'll let the future decide on that. We'll let the market decide on that, right? I think the key thing for us, for people to realize it, hey, you know, I am eight, has a potential to be one of the world's biggest supplement brands in the world in the next three to five years. I think people should focus on that more and then Bitcoin is this kind of like the bonus on the top. - You've said that you're inspired by the success of companies like MicroStrategy, which is long been a pioneer in this space. Do you think this kind of strategy could become the norm? - I actually do believe it could become the norm because all companies are looking at innovation and especially companies that have a growing business. As long as you have additional cash, right? So certainly for companies that doesn't have operating business, I would find it very difficult for them to put XS cash to Bitcoin because they were the operating business. - Right. - From, right? So I think for companies that have operating business and can generate that cash full-down, I think it's a good opportunity. - And last question on this topic, is this goal here to ultimately become one of the largest corporate holders of Bitcoin globally? - I think for us less so about that, right? But I think it's just to have, yeah, part of our assets into Bitcoin as a hedge against inflation, right? But ultimately, I think the key thing for us is a, how do we build IAM8 as the main focus now to be one of the world's biggest healthcare subliminal brands? - Let's talk about roadmap. What is the next chapter of growth look like for both pranetics and IAM8? - So I think, yeah, probably for pranetics-wise, right? I think I've already publicly mentioned this after our Q3 earnings results, is that we're looking to divest our non-core assets, which include Europa, Circle DNA and Insight Tab because I think for us, yeah, I wanna make sure that my focus and management focus is all in on IAM8 because again, we went from zero to 100 million AR in less than 11 months and 5 already projected next year. Full year revenue, we're projecting to 180 to 200 million in revenue and which means that we'll have an ARR of about 300 million dollars in the second year. If I just look at that, it's like, wow, all these other business units, yeah, it could be a distraction. So that's why we are in the process of divesting these other non-core assets and just focusing on IAM8. - And with IAM8, is there a certain kind of next lever that you're hoping to pull there? Because I imagine you have grand plans for the next year or anything else, any other sectors you're looking to. - Yeah, so I think for IAM8, why is again, we're right now 100% direct to consumer and it will predominantly stay significant majority direct to consumer. But we're just seeing so much growth around the world, right? So like, for example, in the US, it only makes up 40% of our business. Canada's number two, UK's number three, Australia's number four, Singapore's number five, Hong Kong's number seven. Yeah, so it's truly a global business. Sam, but we've just scratched your surface because if you think about it, the global supplement market is a 700 billion dollar market opportunity, right? So while we've had a great head start, there's just so much more opportunity for us. And so in '26, we'll be launching a few new products. But we're not gonna be those, someone that has like 15, 20 skills, right? We're also gonna be signing up a few new, a big athlete ambassadors. Anything you can tease? Anything you'll be interesting. So, you know, I was just in, yeah. F1 Albidabi just a few days ago. So I think F1 is a natural evolution, yeah, for performance. And then the great thing about the athletes is that they have so much choice when it comes to supplements, right? And so it's a great testament. Again, going back to trust and credibility of a brand. And they care what they put in their body. It's really interesting what you're just said by the way about your plans to dedicate your focus to IMAID. Because I was gonna ask originally what's so many irons in the fire, how do you split your time and attention? It sounds like that's your answer, right? You're realizing like this is where I'm gonna go all in for now. - Correct. - And as you look back on your life and career, what would you go back and tell your younger self that kid who was selling baseball cards? - For everything that you have to work on, you really have to earn it. You can't take anything for granted. You have to put in the work, you have to put in the research, and you have to be very strategic and everything. There's always a reason for everything. And I think the key thing for me and I always tell the team is that always control what you can. There's a lot that we can control in business, but there's also a lot that we can control. And everything that we can control, we should do that at our best of abilities. - Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. - Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. - Maybe it's Maybelline. - What is the end game for you here? If we were to set back down, let's say, in 10 years, where would you want pranetics or IMA to be? - Since IMA has launched, there has been so many people that have come to me today. You know, you're looking to sell IMA then et cetera, et cetera. Why is it like, yeah, to be fair? - Already. - Yeah, already in context, of course, right? And I was like, I have no interest into selling IMA. I don't need an exit. I'm looking to build this for the long term wise because I see opportunity to create IMA as not just a supplement brand, but as a lifestyle and community to provide value for our customers. And creating a really positive community. Yeah, for example, something that we just rolled out in the last two weeks, I believe, yeah, again, no supplement brand has been able to do this is that we rolled out for our quarterly subscribers in 90 day program where you get access to our scientific advisory board and our performance board, right? So for example, we're going to be offering live Q&A with Dr. Don. She's an integrative oncologist at Mayo Clinic, which, you know, she'll share young longevity tips. So even for her own journey, she's a stage 4 cancer survivor, heart transplant, recipient, ran a full marathon one year after, and she'll be sharing her tips. And you also hear from Bobby Rich, which is, yeah, David Beckham, personal trainer. So imagine getting tips for him on how to train. So your normal individuals not going to have this access, right? But we put together a really amazing group that are able to share and provide value to our customers. That interactive element really coming into play here, that's really fascinating. I think leveraging the access that you guys have already had and all the expertise that you've gone for. You've already had interest from other players and maybe scooping this up, seeing the success you've had. Yeah, so I've had, like, so many emails are people reaching out to me saying, you know what, hey, you know, are you interested to, you know, so I, man, so I've actually taken zero calls in that regards because again, I'm not interested in a quick exit here. We're building this for the long term. And this is, you know, very, very, very likely my last company, yeah. So I think, yeah, with that, yeah, I want to go all in on this and you know, build this to a truly global brand. - Well, you heard it here first. All right, this brings me to a segment where calling what it takes where an audience member gets to ask for advice or hear more on what it takes to get where you are. Today, just here in Growal, founder of Yumama, a protein drink business based on Los Angeles asks for an emerging CPG brand. One of the biggest early hurdles is finding the right manufacturer. Someone who can deliver on quality and is willing to take a chance on a young company. When you were starting out, how did you identify a co-manufacturer that was the right fit for your needs and how did you approach negotiating MLQs and payment terms? - Yeah, it's kind of like finding a girlfriend, right? Yeah, you have to just talk to as many people as you want. Yeah, I mean, you have to talk to as many manufacturers as possible, right? So I think when we finally selected our co-manufacturer, it was through a process at least, I talked to at least 20, 30 different manufacturers before settling in on our current contract manufacturer understanding their current customer base and if they is someone that can scale with you as well, right? So I think, again, the contract manager we selected, I would say is much more premium manufacturer because I think for us, that was also important. It wasn't about always finding the lowest cost, right? Because if we always look for lowest cost, there will always potentially be some shortcuts taken, right? So we'll be finding the one that matches with your brand ethos and someone that can actually grow with you, right? Because the last thing you want is that if you select contract manufacturer in six months in, you know, for some reason, they're not accustomed to that grow for scale. They can't grow with you, then you'll be, yeah. Even though you may be saving some money here and there, why is it, right? It'll be much difficult to switch in that process. - So take the long view as well, right? - Yes, car cap. - Thank you, Danny. Now we're gonna do a quick rapid fire round. Don't overthink it, just say whatever comes to mind. - Ready? - Remote hybrid or in office? - Hybrid. - What's one health trend you think is overhyped? - Cold plunging. - What's one wellness ritual you never skipped? - I am eight. - How do you mentally prepare before a big event? - I don't think too much about it, yeah? - It'll get done. What do you like to ask when hiring? - I have so many questions as hiring, right? Is really understanding their motivations? - What's one piece of advice you come back to often? - Yeah, control the controllables. - No wonder you're so zen now. Yeah, thank you, Danny. Well said, I've enjoyed our conversation. - Thank you very much, Michelle. - Thanks for joining us on Behind the Business. For more stories on business and leadership, follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week. (upbeat music) Imagine setting your makeup. - Maybe it's Maybelline.