ILPB- Ep7: The Future of La Place de Bordeaux

In the global world of fine wine, so many threads are connected by one single place, La Plas de Vordo. For 800 years La Plas de Vordo's unique trading system has brought the fine wines of Vordo to merchants and collectors around the world. But what was for so long an exclusive local club is now the hub of the international world of fine wine. But despite its huge influence on the world of fine wine today, we don't really know much about La Plas de Vordo. I mean we don't really know what the Plas de Vordo is and what happens behind what appears to be closed doors. The most important and influential wine market place in the world remains shrouded in mystery. How does La Plas work? And maybe more importantly, why? And when does it work? Who's behind it? And who gets to be in the club? And one of the questions that we hear most often from wine makers around the world is, will my wines be successful if they go through the Plas de Vordo? I am Bullen Vigel, co-founder and director of a reneglobal, and after hearing these questions over and over, we decided to explore exactly what La Plas de Vordo is, who the people behind it are, and explore the role that the Plas is likely to play in the future fine wine distribution. And I'm Felicity Carter, the editorial director of a reneglobal. For me, this is a fascinating journey into a place that's growing in importance, but yet remains poorly understood. So come with us as we enter La Plas. Welcome to episode 7, the last episode of the reneglobal series inside La Plas de Vordo. What a journey it has been Felicity. It certainly has. I've certainly learned a lot more than I thought I would. But before we hang up the microphone, we have one last episode together, and this one has been particularly fascinating to work on. That's right. I'm the time that we pull out our crystal ball. In this episode, we look at how La Plas de Vordo is likely to grow and change, and what its future might look like, and its role and place in the future of fine wine. In this episode, you're going to hear what the experts have to say, while Pauline and I are going to speculate. Well, we're talking about predictions here, but Felicity, you used to be a fortune teller, right? So I guess you have an unfair advantage on me here. Well, I was, but my transfer wasn't that great. So the advantage isn't as big as you might think. Well, let's come back to this episode in 10 years and see how we went. OK, so before we talk about La Plas in general, I want to address the really big question. The future of La Plas is somewhat linked to the future of the on-premise system, and the 2023 on-premise campaign just ended. Pauline, how bad was it? Cutting straight to the chase. I guess it's fair to say that this campaign wasn't good at all. 2013 was the worst campaign in living memory of Herodhy, but the bad results of this 2023 campaign seems to worry La Plas way more. So what went wrong? Well, 2013 was a really weak vintage, so nobody was really excited by the wines quite logically. But this year, the quality was deemed as very, very good by both the trade and critics. And yet most of the wines fell to find a buyer. So here is Matius Chadorigny, the head of Civil Bige, so one of the leading negotiations of La Plas de Bordeaux, as you will all remember, so sharing his stake on the campaign. Well, it's fair to say that it didn't go as we were hoping it would. And it raises many questions about how futures continue to have a future. To take a step back, I'd like to say that since I started in this business, and this is my 23rd Encrème campaign, I've been told that the end of Encrème was imminent. My point here is not to say it's always been around, so it will always be around. It needs to adapt. But it's hard to take long-term conclusions about something from something that happened just weeks ago. Some adaptations will surely need to be made, but discerning what is due to the headwinds, the whole industry is facing at the moment. Market that have slowed down around the world. And what is due to a potentially lesser adaptation of how you buy en primeur when you're today's younger consumer who are probably seeking more rapid gratification than buying something. Today you'll get in two years and you'll drink in five, seven or ten. So there's a mix of all this and to make things even more complex. But that's probably the one thing that calls for the most thorough thought about how en primeur will evolve. In the past, until the recent past, the fortunes of en primeur were following the fortunes of ventures, meaning that the great campaigns were the campaigns of the great ventures and great ventures came on a regular basis, but not that often. My first campaign was 2001, following 2000, a bit of a challenge, then 2003 was exciting, 2005 was exciting, 2009, 10. And then we had to wait until 2015, but then we had 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22. I think one of the big reasons why this campaign did not fare as we were hoping it would is because we had an unprecedented succession of great ventures and an en primeur cannot be quite the same if the norm is the great vintage and the exception is the less great vintage. So what will the future be like? It's a bit too early to have certainty about this. But in assessing this, I think we have to be very discerning in laying out the issues. And Felicity, I'm sure that you will also remember Max Elhamgel from previous episodes. So Max is the fine wine buyer at Barry Brosson-Brud here in London and probably the biggest buyer of border in the world. So I caught up with Max this week and I asked him his stake on the 2023 campaign. I think there is no doubt that this campaign is in line with a succession of campaign which are leading to changes. Was it a disaster? For us, no, as a business, I don't think it was a disaster. Was it as expected pretty much when we talked before the campaign. I had a few fears about how the campaign will pan out mainly because of the pattern of releases rather than other things. We already knew that the prices would have to be much lower in the on average they were. But I think the pattern of release really has affected how this campaign unfolded, which was the podcast last time we spoke, which was one of my biggest fear. And it has happened to a certain extent. So the fact that all the top ones released first, so everybody spent the money buying the top ones and there was no money for everybody else. Well, and it's very reflected into our numbers because our average basket is actually this pint of drop of 30% or 25% average. Our average basket is actually up or last year. So people have spent more? So people have bought more expensive lines, which were cheaper than last year. So we stuck up on the top ones basically. Absolutely. Prices have been down the way you were expecting them to be. The board today understood the message and the line they're price of boarding links. So the lack of end of 2023 vintage was I think across the board qualified as a good one. You know, has a great on a TV vintage. So the price have aligned. The quality was there. What can explain the lack of interest then or success of that campaign? I think I think the consumers were not necessarily there. And we knew that hence why the prices were aligned the way as the lack of consumers. I mean, the market has been going down for a solid 24 months by now. And there's no signs of us really being at the bottom of it hopefully will be there soon. So everything was in place for a campaign that was going to be difficult. And therefore the property have adapted down to the releases. But in essence, the consumers were not very excited about the majority of the ones, despite the fact that as you said, the vintage is pretty good. I really enjoy tasting the ones myself. So the ones with good, the critics were okay. But economically, I think customers had instead of buying 10 cases across the board, they picked four or five cases of their favorite ones, which were discounted by 30 or 40%. And that's the first time that you see something. like this happening or have we been through similar? No, I think it really is the first time where we have had a campaign that is lose mainly focus on on the kind of a top end line up of the campaign and as a business for us we still have offered and sold across about 161. So we have had some success across the board, but I know talking to your negocials in board I know see some of my colleagues and competitors and a lot of them are already really sold only at the top end. And the fact that this has is that each again look at the average basket is there but also we are the stage and this is really why I think it is a turning point for board overall is that 80% of our turnover is coming from about 30 properties. So out of 100 and that's the first time. No that's once you know saying early in conversation that it is a gradual process but it is more emphasised this year and then where we were offering 200 properties before then we went down to 180 then we are probably down to 160 now and then eventually I don't know it will end up but it does a very good chance of the way things are going. On-premise we will be focusing only on 50 to 100 properties. So yeah you were saying that L of the 160 properties that you offered you made 80% of your turnover on 30. So 20% of your turnover was divided between 104 but 130 properties. That's going to be quite shocking. Because you should go back 20 years ago that wouldn't be the case. And there's many reason for that I mean you know the price difference between the top and the bottom is more today than it was. You know 20 to 30 years ago I came across a brochure that was sending 90 for the 1997 on-premise campaign the other day and the prices were very high in 1997 and actually some of the wines are almost the same price today as they were in 1997. Oh wow okay. Very shockingly. But there was kind of there was a rhythm. If you only had the book standard wines that I like like the majority in the book standards it's not what I mean. I mean it's the majority of the ones where a prize then you had every growth will then have a price increase across all of them. So if first growth will be double the price and the second growth and the second growth will be double the price as the majority of the other one. So it was kind of an order but now it's you know the difference between between the kind of middle end and the top end is quite vast. And so the big question to me is what will happen to this perfectly good wines and how do we change the system so we give them some space and we can market them. And I think that is the solution that you know needs to be found between everybody within within the chain. How do we sell wine successfully at 35 euros the same way that we sell a wine successfully at 155 euros. And I don't have the answer to that question but but I think I think those properties will have to work a bit harder in trying to find solutions that's for sure. So another illustration of how special this campaign has been is a top retailer here in London telling me that on a regular campaign they would normally keep a level of stock of around 40%. So meaning that they would deliberately keep around 40% of the stock they bought even if they hadn't you know sold it to consumers yet because they are usually confident in the capacity to sell and also in their capacity to cover the cost of stocking the bottles. But this year their stock level is around 2% only so that means that they don't want to take any risk or you know pay too much on the stock because money is not cheap anymore of course. So everyone is buying the bare bare minimum. Sure but everyone's been predicting the demise of on-premise since I started as a wine rider which was some time ago. I mean is this finally the end? Well we've been nothing at this statement right because you know we've everyone predicts the end of the on-premise every year and so far the system is still standing but I'd say one thing is that you know outsiders have been forecasting the end of Bordeaux and the on-premise system for decades but I think it's the first time that I've heard the Bordeaux themselves so including properties, negotiations and shadows sharing you know rather publicly you know they're concerned about the continuation of the on-premise system and I think it's fair to say that the plus is very much concerned and that most of the stakeholders realize that this bad campaign for you know for a good vintage is not only due to difficult economic situations the quite realistic they're not just saying you know it's geopolitics and it's the war and it's inflation and interest rates of course that has a role to play but I think they also understand that there are deeper more structural issues and so to answer your question I don't think that this campaign will be the last on the on-premise I think they're going to at least keep one more so that you can come and experience it but I think that many key players in Bordeaux are already actively thinking about the best way to you know to adapt and to transform the system. Yeah and you've listed some of the difficulties but one difficulty I've found fascinating is that there's been too many good vintageers you know it's a combination of climate change and also improved the viticulture and so on but you know on-premise really works when there's one great vintage and you've got to snap it up because you don't know when the next one is going to come along but year after year after year now they're having great vintageers and who knew that was going to cause problems. Anyway we asked Emma McCoy the wine writer from Bloomberg who's been attending on-premise for about 25 years what she thought. Years ago I wrote a piece about whether it actually benefited consumers to have on-premise because from the point of view of the Chateau's the system is fantastic. Why? 5,000 people come to your wine region they spend there's a three-week window where everybody is focused on your wines. Everyone is talking about them the most important retailers and porters around the world the people who are at live-axx who are talking about the value of investing in the vintage so you have this spotlight on you and your wines for a significant period of time so wow that's all to the good for you whether you sell your wines sell through your wines or not this spotlight is terrific. Now does it benefit consumers? Well it used to I'm not so sure it's very important to consumers anymore which is at least in the US I'm talking about and I'm not so sure it's that fantastic for people who are investing or speculating in Bordeaux either. Part of that is because there's not much of a financial advantage to you to buy to two years before you're going to get the wines. So in some ways there's this kind of disconnect and the other part of consumers is that Bordeaux is no longer as important in the wine world in terms of consumers as it once was. And of course we have to make it clear the CAD pain wasn't a catastrophe for everyone. Some wines were very successful and not just the first growth. Pauline you talked to Mattu about this didn't you? Yes because I wanted to understand the common threads between you know the winners of this campaign and you know if we could learn from them I'll urge everyone to listen carefully because I really think that what Mattu is going to say now does not only apply to the on-premise wines but can also explain the success of all major fine wines today. That's a good question because if there was one answer it would mean that we have the magic formula. If I look at those that were successful really successful beyond the first growth I think there's essentially two common traits to all of them. A level of quality that has been acknowledged by everyone including the critics but not only the critics is a succession of highly successful releases. Yes I mean consistent very high success over time. And that is true of conseillel, but it's true of Carmoubrio. You've spoken to Guillem Puittier, it was true of Marraus, it was true of Pichon Contez and a few others. But if we are really to find commentates, I think it comes down to these two exceptional quality, widely acknowledged, and an estate that is on a track record of very high success. Does this mean that the less successful wines were just not good enough? Not being praised as one of the wines of the vintage doesn't mean that your quality was not appreciated. That's one. And then the few names I mentioned, they could be others, but the other thing that the names I mentioned having common is they are at the very top of the hierarchy. And when the market is narrow and it did was narrow this year, or shallow, I don't know how to say, then attention and success is very much focused on the top of the pyramid. And some wines lower in the pyramid, I can think of wines that were really highly appreciated and that did enjoy some success, but nowhere close to the level of success that some of the names I mentioned did enjoy because they are wines at more modest prices and where people probably feel less of the sense of urgency to buy in the context, both macroeconomic and geopolitical that we are in now. So Felicity, I want to raise an important point here if we can stop for a second. I think we can all agree that this is the end of a cycle for the pyramid system. The modern version of the of the empire hasn't been around forever, so there's no reason to believe that it will be around forever, at least not in the current form. But what's really interesting to me is that other regions find themselves in similar situation than Bordeaux without the empire system. So let's take Burgundy, for example, because that might come as a surprise to use some people in the audience, but Burgundy is in a similar situation of Bordeaux at the moment is that the you know, Burgundy is just in the price increased. Everyone trying to buy Burgundy, yes, in the price increased and to some extent that price increase was due to a series of very small ventages that have driven the prices to go up, creating natural scarcity because of course the demand for Burgundy was still there. And to some extent that actually created even a stronger demand because the less there is and the more people want it. And that's the fundamental issue here and you know also the reverse, the more there is, the less people want it because when you start having too much, like you were saying, because there's a lot of very good vintage thanks to climate change or anything else, or at least when in the case of Burgundy when you when you start to have more wine, like it was the case in 23 and probably will be the case for this coming harvest in 24, then you know, wines are more available, prices stay at a similar level or drop slightly. And when you don't have scarcity anymore, it's really interesting to see how things start to crumble. So of course, top wines will continue to be highly desired, but not bought in a frenzy, just like as we've seen in Bordeaux. And the middle and the entry level will suffer because when you can't buy top burgundy's because they're too expensive, you go back to the you know, middle or to the entry level category. But when there is loads, why bother with you know, the small ones when you can buy the top ones. And I actually know more than a glass that are willing to share in Burgundy that are sitting that are sitting in tanks full of wines. And I've also heard from top retailers here in London that for the first time they are turning away the Burgundy allocations because the market is now that buzzed. Yeah, well, you use the word cycle and I think that's probably the right turn. It's clear that Burgundy went through a bubble, there's a lot of speculation and now the bubble has burst. But the tried and true wines have come to the end of this cycle with their price and reputation intact. And of course, we've also seen lots of women bust cycles in Bordeaux. Bordeaux is not on-premise and can survive with or without it. But finally, having said that, what do you think the impact of this campaign will be? Well, the crisis in Bordeaux is as I was saying before, you know, structural. And when we talk about the Bordeaux crisis and it's quite fair, you know, most people think of the Antro de Maire and the Bordeaux superiors, wines and we've all seen the wines being pulled out and it's it is dramatic. I'm not sugarcoting this, but I don't think many people realise how fragile some of the crootlessy are financially. So I ask Matthew whether this bad campaign will mean, you know, only above in the road, or serious financial issues for most of the shadows. There's both. Some are going to be in financial difficulty and not for others. It's going to be a bump on the road, but you will have heard and read at length of the difficulties that Bordeaux is going through as a region at the moment. And this is going to be part of it. So yes, for some states, not the lingon primer is going to pose a true financial financial challenge. Okay, for the wines that haven't been bought and pre-sold, the negotiations, I guess, now have some really tough decisions to take. How much are they going to buy and how much can they buy? If they don't buy, it sounds like this could be the end of some properties. Well, yes, a very, very serious complication because of course on top of everything, September is coming and we all know that September is a very, very expensive month with harvest and very demanding of cash flow and try to convince your harvesters to come in harvest and then just wait in other three months to get paid. So here is Max steak on what's currently happening in Bordeaux. So today, what's happening in Bordeaux and I'm sure if you call some negotiate on that, you're quite busy, they are basically on a daily basis. All these wineries are closing their books and then basically the negotiate is to say, okay, who am I going to say yes to and no to? And there's a financial, there's a commercial, but there's also the political element. You know, they all know each other and they're all friends and it's very difficult to go back to your friend and say listen, you know, I'm going to give you 80% back of your inventory here. But it's also very politically driven because if you have had success with one brand, but that brand has three other wines, which are lesser wines. Let's say the brand is 150 euros and the other two brands are 25. These other two brands, you probably haven't sold them during this campaign. You would have very successfully sold the one at 150 but not the other two. So you will have to take that stock because you kind of go back to the property and say, I'll take your top wines when I don't take the others. And what will happen is that there will be some more independent wineries at 25 euros. You are not attached to an expensive one. It will say, well, you know, how much of my wine do you want? They will say, well, I can't take any. And the reason for it is because they would have to say yes to the other two small ones and it can't have false problems. One of the things that sometimes people underestimate I think in in Bordeaux and some of the negotiations that they do really care about the ecosystem and they are very much aware of their responsibility that they have in terms of sometimes the economic survival of some mistakes. So do you think we're going to see like kind of an agreement between the negotiations saying, okay, I can't take you know 10 shadows that I haven't sold nothing of. I'll take one, you take one, you know, and everyone taking a bit of everything separately or split the risk. We're probably ahead of the conclusion of this conversation because at the end of the day that would be the ideal world. But not just across the merchant, but across the whole system. So in the UK, you know, you would have 20 big merchants and everybody takes, you know, two or three properties that I bring under their wing. So everybody will take the big ones, but the smaller ones then you become a bit more exclusive, I guess. And for that exclusivity, then you get increased margins and with that margin, you can then promote those lines and distribute them successfully. So in essence, that would be the, you know, the the ideal solution. But there might be a very, very small silver lining in all of this is that, you know, according to Max, why investment is, you know, dead or at least unopposed. And I think the people who have done wine for investment this year were definitely not here. And we are probably sold in a five times or six times more wine this year than a nearest good to tap. And the reason for it is because we sell wine at all level for concealers. Yes, there are some people who will be investing as there's no doubt. But, but you know, I would hope that the majority will buy, you know, border wine, looking at the tasting modes and how they are affiliated with the brand and they like the wine. rather than whether it's cheap so more than the 2017 vintage that they bought before. Do you think that, well, that announces a slowdown in the financialization of wine? Well, by default, yes, because these customers are not there anyway. They've moved on to something else. They might come back to wine eventually, but the wine investment time is, at the moment, like a lot of investment, I guess, but if you look at the car market, it's very similar. Those customers are putting them on the bank at 5%, and they're waiting for better days. So this vintage has definitely suffered from these investors who would probably buy more ones that they would never drink in order to resell them. These people are not there. That's one of the things that can rejoice. I mean, I can rejoice depending on what your opinion is on wine investment, but at least we've lost the investors. That can be a good thing, and we're back to wine drinkers. It is a good thing, but it wants our price for the investors. They're not price for the consumers, and that's where I think there might be a bit of a new ship. I think this is where we. This is another point that needs to be addressed, and who is your final consumer? Because Bordel has been very happy each one of the ones who be speculated, and actually, it has helped everyone in financing wineries and the interest in the quality of the wines. Everything is good, but I think we've reached a stage where it doesn't work anymore, and therefore we need to reconnect with the consumers. Our deprices where consumers will buy, and making wine there, I say, I slightly less good, but the cheaper and people will drain. Yeah, that last point he made, it's interesting, it's like over capitalising on a house. There's a point where Navature Innovations become counterproductive if the area isn't desirable. But going back to what he said about wine speculation, it's going to be a relief for many wine lovers to hear that the era of speculation is over or on pause, because more than anything, it's been the thing that's upset wine lovers over the last couple of decades. The last question about on-premise, Pauline, what do you think it will become? That's a fascinating question indeed, but before we get into it, I just want to take a second to ask a favour to everyone listening to the podcast right now. If you like what you've heard so far, please do subscribe to the Rini podcast channel on any of the platforms that you are listening this episode on, and give us a cool rating, it really helps. And when we say give us a cool rating, what we mean is please give us five stars. Okay, I'm answering this question first, but then it's your turn, I don't want to be the only one making bad prediction here. I don't know, and actually I'm going to take a side road to Ranzo because I don't know what the on-premise system will become or how it will evolve, but I actually know what I would selfishly like to see happenings, so I'm going to share that with you for what it's worth. I really like this idea of the big Condiville-Ronser year, when you can discover the vintage, when you visit the shadows, when you reconnect with friends and colleagues you haven't seen for 12 months and etc. I think this is really powerful and the experience was so enjoyable, and Bordeaux should fight hard to keep this alive. I mean other regions are right to be jealous of that because this is great, but I have been stunned by two things, thinking about the conclusion of all this series. First, well I think everyone agrees in saying that the magic of Bordeaux fine wine is the capacity to age and that the capacity to prove that across decades is still there and fair advantage compared to other regions. And I was just thinking, well isn't that paradoxical that the big global communication message is that the wines can age and are magical when they do, but when you organise your big promotional event it's all about tasting six months old wines and if you continue the paradox like the shadows are telling you that the wines are amazing when they age, but they don't carry the weight of aging on their own or at least they use not to and they will just drop the wines in the market and hope that someone somewhere will age the wines and recognise the value of them. So one of the things that I would really like to see more drink the Amprimaire and I don't know how it's technically possible, but it would be to taste more, you know, all the vintage and I know that some of the private dinners during the week do offer that but they are really just for a small handful of people that do have the chance to get invited. I'd love to see that in a more, you know, global things happening for more people. And then the second is I really strongly think that the narrative needs to stop being just about the price. The whole narrative of the Amprimaire is around, you know, is all around the price whether or not it will reflect the quality of the vintage and whether or not people are going to be able to make money out of it. And of course for the top 30 or 50 estates that Max was mentioning earlier, there will always be a part of investment and a part of let's try and make money out of those wines and you know, so we need to really, really focus about the price and that that's important and that has its value. But for the rest of the wines, the narrative really has to change. You know, Bordeaux is the only region in the world where everything is always just about the price. And the least that I can say is that it's neither inspirational nor aspirational. It's easier said than done, of course, but I think this really has to change. Yeah, I mean, it's a very adaptable rage and one of the things Aileen was telling us about was, you know, how much things have changed just when it comes to the press tasting. So she told us that when she started to go to on-premur, you know, she'd be able to go to the UGC tasting and taste almost everyone there except for the first. But in recent years, all the shadows have started organising their own tastings and now you spend your time organising visits and driving around Bordeaux top properties and you have less time to taste everyone else. And of course, that has really big implications for the whole region. Yeah, I didn't connect that to, you know, one of the things that could have contributed to polarisation. But of course, that's one of the little things that can. And I understand why, you know, top properties are not that keen on playing it collectively anymore and why they would rather receive everyone at the rest state than just been pulled at collective tastings. I mean, you want to be able to control both your wines and your brand, right? So that makes a lot of sense individually. And of course, I would lie if I was saying that I didn't really enjoy going and be hosted by all of the top shadows, right? That's a great thing to live as a wine professional. But I also do believe that it has played a role now thinking about it in the polarisation of what we see today because people will always want to spend the little time or the little money that they have on the top wines. But lesser known shadows are making great wines that are really worth it too. So I believe that more collective is needed and that, you know, more love needs to be shown by the top estate to the lesser known wines. But going back to the entrepreneur, I promise that I would ask you the same question, Felicity. What's your prediction on the future of futures? Oh, I think it's too important for Bordeaux. And I think also that there's a large group of the trade that really enjoy the pageantry, you know, as you say, they really love the dinners and they love the shadows. So, you know, I think everybody has invested interest in keeping it going. I think it will survive though maybe in a different form. You know, is it necessary for people to buy wines this way? Probably not. But I think people have too much affection for the event themselves. And of course, you know, what have we learned about Bordeaux that they are endlessly flexible when they need to be? Yes, of course, I tell you, Gry, Bordeaux, Bordeaux now knows how to adapt more than what people give it credit for sometimes. But let's have a look at what La Plascan do as a as an ecosystem because if they are selling less and less on-premise, if the on-premise sells continues to be less and less important in terms of the business, well, I guess they have two solutions for, you know, the future. They can sell more livrables from Bordeaux, so just translating what used to be sold on-premise wines in Botto. And they can also sell more beyond Bordeaux wines, right? Because another possibility, which is maybe that more or less the beyond Bordeaux wines will take up a sort of on-premise system of their own. But let's go back to a question that we've heard a lot in recent months. Wine offers. Do they still want to drink the top Bordeaux? So we asked Jane Anson this, you know, way back at the beginning. And this is what she had to say. I think Bordeaux has been counted out so many times and it always manages to find a way through. You look at 19th century writings about Bordeaux, what are people saying? They're saying the top wines are too high, the prices are ridiculous, nobody's going to want to buy them. And it that turns out not not to be the case again and again and again. I think we can we forget that there are fine wine regions who making a thousand bottles of something incredible or making 300 bottles, that's probably a better way of something incredible. Like often might be the case in Burgundy, even in Napa, is remarkable and should be congratulated. But to be able to do that over 5,000, 10,000, not just bottles, but sometimes cases is really something incredible. And it allows this fine wine marketplace to receive margins in many different parts of the world. And that will always give Bordeaux an edge over other fine wine region. It's the ability to make good wine at scale. So because of that, there is more margin in Bordeaux, I think, for messing up, but for people to be patient and for Bordeaux to find a way through to. And I do think right now it is a crunch point, exactly as you both point out. There's a lot of things wrong right now structurally, but underneath it all, there's still the name Bordeaux, which is very, very strong, and there's still the potential. If we take out what the wine tastes like, the potential for the fine wine market to make money from Bordeaux, and these are businesses we're talking about, so I'm still confident that it will find a way through. While you were talking about the Beyond Bordeaux wines, Felicity, what do you think? Do you think La Plasse will invest in that and sell more and more of them? That's a good question, and I want to come to it, but before I go there, let's listen to Matthew. We will see more wine from Beyond Bordeaux coming to La Plasse. That trend is not going anywhere, because the fundamental rationale that fine wine is one single category that embraces regions and countries of our region remains. The fact that it addresses the same consumer remains, so I don't see that going away. Felicity, now your opinion, what do you think? Yes, I think it's clear that the system is becoming more international. There are still things to work out, but I think it will begin to take on a life of its own. Yeah, well, just to maybe Pondet Yuan through the Azum, here is what Max thinks about the Beyond Bordeaux and his prediction for the September release. Beyond Bordeaux? Will that continue? Do you think, I mean, if the negotiations sales less, I'll primer, if they sell more livrable, of course, but can selling more Beyond Bordeaux be one of the solutions as well? Well, for the negotiations of finances, yes, I mean, the world that will seek to continue to grow outside of Bordeaux, but that again will be rationalized. I mean, the 120 or so brands that have been released other lives in five or six years is going to come down. I can't see some of them, they gave it a good go, but some of them are going to go back. I think they've had good exposure anyway, so the marketing has been done, the PI has been done, they can probably capitalize on that. But a lot of them hasn't worked. Again, you know, the numbers for us in September release is probably even worse than the Bordeaux in terms of proportion. So it's a very, very small proportion of the wines who make the majority of the 10 or the 10. Can you expect that to be the same in this September? Yes, absolutely. It's going to be a tough September release. Absolutely. I mean, if the wineries don't do what they need to do, it will be very tough. But also bearing in mind that as much as we also have our own ex-exhibities, and if I'm going to sell us any Italian wine, I'd rather sell any Italian wines at the high margin than the one I'm making from the past. And then so we will focus mainly on our wines and then take the top in wines from the past that we want to get access to. So that might not even be 30, that might be 10. It might be 10. But I understand from a, from another merchant who's either in Vietnam, for example, who. You know, of course, yeah. They have access to all these wines that they would want to go to the past. And add it to their pallets of order, they would then they buy a couple of Italian, couple of Italian, and Australians. And I make sense for these people, for us it will make less sense. I don't think there's a huge amount of growth coming from that part. I think they need to stabilize it, probably remove some of it, and then work harder on the ones that they have to make sure they sell through. So we've talked about the future of the Antrimar system, which just as a reminder is not the integrality of what Le Blas does selling on Prima. We talked about the other wines that the, the, the Blas could sell more of to compensate for the lack of Antrimar. And so that leaves us with our last set of questions on, on the possible evolution of Le Blas. And Felicity, there is something we haven't talked at all in this series, and I guess it's about time that we do that. It's blockchain and NFTs. Do you see a role for this new technologies? I mean, are they going to save their plans? It's really interesting. NFTs are interesting. So, you know, for a while, they were the next big thing, and then they were a complete joke, and everybody lost money on it. But in principle, the ideas that you can leave bottles alone and just trade the digital certificate is a really interesting one. So I've asked Fine Wine dealers about this, and they've all said it won't work, because collectors want to see and touch their bottles. But then other people tell me that the reason that younger people are coming into Fine Wine is specifically because they love the new technology. So I asked Matt too for his opinion. I think it's the very early days, and it's, to me, even though it's a field, I know quite a bit. I think it's impossible to say for sure, oh, this is the future, oh, this is not the future. I think NFTs is a great way to own wine. It's not proven yet that it's a great way to buy wine. So the technology itself is very promising, and can really solve quite a few problems. I think it offers the possibility to engage with a totally new audience. Truth is, no one has corrected the code yet. And until that happens, it will remain unproven. Matt, is this something that you're actively involved in, or is it something you're just keeping your eye on? Well, let's say that we have an active eye on it. So Felicity, the $1 million question, how do you think the glass will level? What will the glass look like in, you know, 15 years? Well, like us have previously, I think it's on track to becoming a truly international distribution system. So the big question for me is whether the centre will move away from Bordeaux itself. So at the moment, you know, all the wine is flowing into Bordeaux, and then it flows back out into the world. I don't know, maybe the negotiations will want to open warehouses in Hong Kong or Singapore. That would change its character fundamentally. Well, let's see what Matthew think about what La Placé will look like in 15 years. Well, what I think will happen is the glass will remain a very open system. The value of having several negotials selling the same wines at the same time is irreplaceable in terms of dynamism. So I think we will read even though we may see less players in 10 years than we're seeing now. I think there will still be a fairly large number because some of the vitality of the system lies on that fact. But I don't think there will be quite as many because the world is changing. And what you need to put in place to be a relevant negotiate is much more significant than it's ever been. The amount of investment you need to pour in to be to to be in this business and enjoy development is really higher than it's ever been. So I think we will see some form of concentration and we've seen it happen already if we look at today versus 10 years ago. Are we going to see the same concentration at the shadows level? That I don't know. I don't know. We have seen quite a bit of concentration along shadows. Some of the more successful estate expanding. But I don't see I don't expect that we will have the same kind of organic concentration within the production and then we'll have in the trade on that. However, what we will see is a probably serious contraction of the vineyard bays of Bordeaux. It's at play already. So in some way it is tragic because those who are pulling out vineyards are doing it because they are in very dire financial situation. So I mean, there is a tragedy happening now in Bordeaux. But I think that in 10 years with a vineyard that will be overall smaller than it is today, Bordeaux can rebuild on a much stronger base and the region in 10 years. And if I had that one magic wand would be much stronger than it is today. Okay, Felicity may be a bit of a theoretical question, but you know, that was one of our objectives when we set up that podcast was to determine what will be the rule and the place of La Blasse in the future of fine wine globally. I think it's always going to stay a distribution system because that's its core expertise and there are frankly other people who are better suited to doing things like brand building. What we learned so far is that Bordeaux has historically been responsive to the market. If the world of fine wine continues going global, so will the plus. But probably what to bet to think? Well, let's listen. Well, that's a very good question, but in the role of La Blasse to help ensure that fine wine submit their consumers will not change and its future is simply more of the same, but continuously better. La place is the platform, the network, if you will, that best bridges the gap between producers and consumers on a global scale. And I will continue. on the path to evermore sophisticated distribution and geographical ramifications. But beyond that Laplace or rather Bordeaux thanks to Laplace is the hub where the world of fine wine meets and interacts. It helps the pollination of ideas, it enhances and accelerates the emerging of new trends. The beyond Bordeaux development has contributed to this and it will continue. But I cannot see a future of fine wine without Bordeaux being strong and Bordeaux is suffering now. Probably more than observers realize and we as Laplace have a collective duty to contribute to the rebound of Bordeaux so that it may remain the beacon it always was. In the end fine wine is more than wine. It is a culture and a community and Bordeaux has a special role in nurturing the cultural dimension of fine wine and in bringing the community together. Laplace helps in that. It actually is what we see as one of our missions at CVVG making the world of fine wines one. And that's probably a good way to summarize the future of Laplace indeed, making the world of fine wines one. Pauline, your final thoughts. I guess I now find Bordeaux more fascinating than ever. Well I always found it interesting but really. Because if I'm being honest I never really understood when people were saying burgundy is fascinating and that's my region of choice because it's too complex that when you do understand burgundy you understand pretty much everything. And I was like well okay yeah burgundy is cool but to me it's actually really simple or at least very very logical the way it's organized how it functions how the hierarchy of the wines and the terroir work. But I see the point about loving something because of the complexity because that's what I really love about Bordeaux now is how complex it is. I mean this in treccacy is utterly you know fascinating and things and people are constantly changing and evolving and I hope that some of the people that are attracted to burgundy because of the complexity of the system will also become passionate about cracking the code of Bordeaux because the learnings are at the risk of repeating myself here but really fascinating. Pauline you are the first person in my entire life that I have ever heard describing burgundy as simple. Okay so but as far as the future of Bordeaux goes you know going back to that question about whether you know wine lovers are becoming tired of top Bordeaux or not you know my thing is always never ever ever bet against history. Bordeaux has a very long history it survived a lot it's been through downturns it's been through upswings and that still comes out the other side. So whatever happens I think it's going to survive and ultimately thrive. All right so with that let's close the door on Laplace after having spent many many months of researching, interviewing and preparing and tell me Pauline what are we doing next? More very sleepless nights working on podcast yay! Well I am pleased to say that you know thanks to the amazing feedback we had from you our listeners we have more of this series in the pipeline. So if you haven't yet please subscribe to both the Eurene podcast on the platform that you are listening this episode on and also subscribe to our newsletter on the website I've put all the links in the show notes to be the first to know about our next adventures and I can't wait to embark on it until next time cheers! This podcast episode was presented by me for the City Carter editorial director of Arrini Global along with Pauline Vickard the CEO and co-founder and it was edited by Pauli Hammond and the five forests team. We want to thank all the fascinating personalities who took the time to answer all of the hard questions we threw at them only a few of whom were featured in today's episode but you'll be hearing from many many more of them in the episodes to come. Insider Plasde Bordeaux was made possible thanks to the support of the Civivige, one of Bordeaux leading the Gossian House. We are very grateful to Matieu Chadorollien all of his team for sharing insights, data, contacts while allowing us to totally destroy your freedom. Until next time!